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(Gallup)   Not news: Half of Democrats have favorable impressions of socialism. Fark: So do a quarter of Republicans   (gallup.com) divider line 183
    More: Amusing, Democrats, Republican, socialism, capitalism  
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1275 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Nov 2012 at 4:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-29 07:39:47 PM  

impaler: jigger: Argh! There were giant national retail chains then too. Wal Mart did not invent discount retail.

And at that time there were mom and pop shops as well.

In 2006, the big-box retailer promised to bring jobs to the cash-strapped community. But according to a landmark study by Loyola University, the company's rhetoric didn't match reality: Within two years of Walmart's opening its doors, 82 local stores went out of business.


That same article talks about small businesses going out of business and struggling to survive during the recession even though NYC has kept Walmart out. And it's basically an OpEd written by Steven Barrison is executive vice president of the Small Business Congress of New York City, a federation of more than 75 small-business associations advocating for the rights of small enterprises across the five boroughs. 

Walmart grew up when there were other large retailers. Kmart started only a couple of years before Walmart, but they spread way more quickly. Now they have a much lower market share because they're basically a shiattier version of Walmart and people would rather go to Walmart or Target. Costco competes directly with Sam's Club (Walmart) and is killing them.
 
2012-11-29 07:51:53 PM  
The NFL is the leading socialist organization in America.
 
2012-11-29 07:56:06 PM  

pete1729: The NFL is the leading socialist organization in America.


they own ESPN and the networks (distribution)?

I didn't know that.
 
2012-11-29 08:08:16 PM  
100 of all americans love socialism when they realize the program whose teat they are currently sucking is socialism too. NOW GET YOUR DEMORAT GOV HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE
 
2012-11-29 08:20:31 PM  

pete1729: The NFL is the leading socialist organization in America.


Alaska is the leading socialist state in the US, something that all the independent rugged individuals there don't really understand.
 
2012-11-29 08:24:18 PM  
michaelgreenwell.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-29 08:24:56 PM  
Why should I believe gallup?
 
2012-11-29 08:38:43 PM  
Who doesn't like free stuff?
 
2012-11-29 08:40:14 PM  

jigger: That same article talks about small businesses going out of business and struggling to survive during the recession


Walmart was killing off mom and pops long before the recession.

Mom and pops are rare now. They weren't when walmart started.
 
2012-11-29 08:49:57 PM  

jigger: I've repeatedly brought up that they were not the only player in the PC market. They went up against IBM. And farking won. There were other, larger PC companies besides IBM. Where are they now? Where's your new Tandy? Where's your new Commodore?


I don't even have to say anything because you're making my argument for me. You just really don't grasp what the rest of us are trying to say.

That competition exists at all is not a validation of your argument. We're not saying competition doesn't exist. We're saying that large megacorps throw up large barriers to entry, making competition less likely, and a sufficiently large entity can and does corner the market. We're not saying these are monolithic entities that stomp out all competition and stand for all time, we're saying they suffocate competition, usually by economies of scale that start-ups can't match, and under the current system if it's not one company, it will be another, and IBM will be replaced by Apple will be replaced by Spacely Space Sprockets, Inc.

The easiest out is to create a market, but once established, the new market suffers from all of the same problems.
 
2012-11-29 09:05:06 PM  

impaler: jigger: That same article talks about small businesses going out of business and struggling to survive during the recession

Walmart was killing off mom and pops long before the recession.

Mom and pops are rare now. They weren't when walmart started.


And now Mom and Pop have to compete with Dollar General and Family Dollar. Maybe the customers are to blame for shopping at places with lower prices.
 
2012-11-29 09:41:30 PM  

GoodyearPimp: Spanky_McFarksalot: I'm really not sure what Americans associate with socialism,

"Some n-word is getting something for FREE" = socialism
"Welfare (be it SS, UI, whatever) check is here" = not socialism. Unless a black guy is getting it.


I think the more general formulation is:

"THEY are getting something for FREE" = socialism
"WE are getting what we need to live on" = not socialism.

Race is a popular way to delineate the us/them divide, but it's hardly the only one, and some of them are even not racist dog whistles. Unions are often THEM, for example.
 
2012-11-29 10:08:32 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Communist_Manifesto: Seriously, how would I start a company that competes with Wal Mart?

How did Wal Mart start?

By occupying a business niche that could only exist in 1940s America. Unless you intend to depopulate the world, destroy most mass communications and transportation infrastructure and then obliterate much of the world's production ability through thirty years of near-apocalyptic warfare, no one has the ability to create a Wal-Mart that way anymore.


It also helped that Walton's father-in-law loaned him $20,000 (almost $250,000 in today's dollars) to buy his first store. So another secret to starting a successful business - be born to rich parents or marry well.
 
2012-11-29 10:28:01 PM  

BMulligan: skullkrusher: What does any of that have to do with obtaining a small business loan?

If you think you're going to go toe-to-toe with WalMart, Comcast, Boeing, General Motors, or JP Morgan Chase with a small business loan, have at it.


that was never the point. In fact, I am arguing that that is a bullshiat metric to use.
 
2012-11-30 12:51:40 AM  

mrshowrules: You could get 25% of Republicans to say Elvis is still alive, milk comes from cats or that they like the taste of bleach.

The fact that 94% were for Free Enterprise and only 72% were for Capitalism shows that you aren't dealing with Rhode Scholars or that 22% were Trekkies hoping for their own space ship.


I could get 25% of Farkers to agree Elvis is still alive, if you gave me time to write the survey correctly. "Given that cells never actually die, but continue reproducing asexually..."
 
2012-11-30 01:43:54 AM  

skullkrusher: Citrate1007: 3/4ths of Republicans don't know what socialism is......or fascism.

apparently this is an affliction shared by many.

How else can both groups be overwhelmingly in favor of free enterprise, small business and entrepreneurs while still having a positive impression of socialism? I don't think most people think of the Fire Department off the top of their head when they hear the word socialism.


What makes free enterprise incompatible with socialism? All free enterprise is about, is the ability to start a new business. Most of the regulations today come from business groups purchasing laws restricting new startups in their respective industries. I point to the ADA trying to get cosmetic teeth whitening treatments listed as a medical treatment in state regulations as the most recent example. Free market capitalism includes regulations, which hamper free enterprise on Main Street and has a tendency toward cartels and monopolies.
 
2012-11-30 02:22:54 AM  

Lansydyr: An example of local socialism, such as city or county would be our fire department.


70% of the fire departments in the US are volunteer. Counties will pay for equipment via donations or short-term bonds via elections and leave the citizens up to the rest.

You should get a new argument, because you chose the one profession that isn't fully supported by the government throughout the vast majority of the US.

BTW - military is a socialist program. If you're actually in the military, you should start with that. You'll win friends.
 
2012-11-30 03:15:36 AM  

Lsherm: Lansydyr: An example of local socialism, such as city or county would be our fire department.

70% of the fire departments in the US are volunteer. Counties will pay for equipment via donations or short-term bonds via elections and leave the citizens up to the rest.

You should get a new argument, because you chose the one profession that isn't fully supported by the government throughout the vast majority of the US.

BTW - military is a socialist program. If you're actually in the military, you should start with that. You'll win friends.


And attract bullets.
 
2012-11-30 03:30:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Lsherm: Lansydyr: An example of local socialism, such as city or county would be our fire department.

70% of the fire departments in the US are volunteer. Counties will pay for equipment via donations or short-term bonds via elections and leave the citizens up to the rest.

You should get a new argument, because you chose the one profession that isn't fully supported by the government throughout the vast majority of the US.

BTW - military is a socialist program. If you're actually in the military, you should start with that. You'll win friends.

And attract bullets.


He claims to be a liberal "infrantry" member of the military, at least according to his post. Direct your ire towards him.
 
2012-11-30 06:00:57 AM  
i like farmer co-ops

worker controlling the means of production, doncha know
 
2012-11-30 07:13:00 AM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.

Fark you. I'm definitely in the giver camp given my tax bracket and I'm all for investing in improvements to the general welfare.

I find that making the country, as a whole, better improves my life, too and that you need to be a special kind of short-sighted asshole not to see that.

/ And you misspelled "enlightened self-interest". It doesn't start with an S.


This.
 
2012-11-30 07:51:56 AM  
Even more people would be for it if it was called something other then socialism. Much of the opposition to socialism is really just knee-jerk reaction to the term and not to the concept.
 
2012-11-30 08:38:45 AM  

jigger: A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: skullkrusher: Amazon did take a significant chunk from retailers though.

Google and Apple started in garages.

Ultimately, you can't use extraordinary exceptions as examples of the model "working". It is no more reasonable to hold up Sam Walton or Bill Gates to show offthe wonders of capitalism than it is to hold up Toyotomi Hideyoshi as an example of the beneficence of feudal warlordism or Nicolai Ceaușescu as an example of the wonders of Soviet Communism.

I'm using those examples to counter the claim that a small company started by a worker's collective can never compete with "the big boys." Once upon a time those "big boys" were small potatoes. They were small potatoes in a world where giant megacorps existed. How can Apple ever compete with IBM? How can Google ever compete with Yahoo or AltaVista?

A worker's collective could start small and one day become huge and there's no need to force a large corporation into that situation.


the people who owned shares in IBM are the same as the ones who own shares in Apple...
With what money are the chines Apple-workers going to buy shares?
It all comes to the same : you need capital. You can start a buisness without, but the people who have the capital (banks or shareholders) are the ones making the money.
 
2012-11-30 09:11:59 AM  

mrshowrules: The fact that 94% were for Free Enterprise and only 72% were for Capitalism shows that you aren't dealing with Rhode Scholars or that 22% were Trekkies hoping for their own space ship.


Are they the Heralds of Free Enterprise?
 
2012-11-30 09:23:08 AM  

BMulligan: I was unable to come with Margaret Thatcher within the time allotted


I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do that in any length of time. *shudder*
 
2012-11-30 10:42:31 AM  
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it may be a teensy bit more than one in four Republicans.

i48.tinypic.com

brightlightsfilm.com

Teensy bit.
 
2012-11-30 11:00:51 AM  

BolloxReader: What makes free enterprise incompatible with socialism? All free enterprise is about, is the ability to start a new business. Most of the regulations today come from business groups purchasing laws restricting new startups in their respective industries. I point to the ADA trying to get cosmetic teeth whitening treatments listed as a medical treatment in state regulations as the most recent example. Free market capitalism includes regulations, which hamper free enterprise on Main Street and has a tendency toward cartels and monopolies.


how does one start a new business if one is unable to individually own capital?
 
2012-11-30 11:34:58 AM  

Jackpot777: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it may be a teensy bit more than one in four Republicans.

[i48.tinypic.com image 800x588]

[brightlightsfilm.com image 250x153]

Teensy bit.


still sucks to live in a red state, fark you Rick Perry. still Texan thru and thru. This is what you people that live in the other forty-nine will never understand We don't all walk around with cowboy hats and crappy accents. I'm looking at you New England. it's not a farking pocketbook, it's a purse.

/bitter liberal living in Texas
//Ann Richards
 
2012-11-30 11:45:45 AM  

skullkrusher: BolloxReader: What makes free enterprise incompatible with socialism? All free enterprise is about, is the ability to start a new business. Most of the regulations today come from business groups purchasing laws restricting new startups in their respective industries. I point to the ADA trying to get cosmetic teeth whitening treatments listed as a medical treatment in state regulations as the most recent example. Free market capitalism includes regulations, which hamper free enterprise on Main Street and has a tendency toward cartels and monopolies.

how does one start a new business if one is unable to individually own capital?


What part of the ACA forbids individuals from owning capital?
 
2012-11-30 01:52:41 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: skullkrusher: BolloxReader: What makes free enterprise incompatible with socialism? All free enterprise is about, is the ability to start a new business. Most of the regulations today come from business groups purchasing laws restricting new startups in their respective industries. I point to the ADA trying to get cosmetic teeth whitening treatments listed as a medical treatment in state regulations as the most recent example. Free market capitalism includes regulations, which hamper free enterprise on Main Street and has a tendency toward cartels and monopolies.

how does one start a new business if one is unable to individually own capital?

What part of the ACA forbids individuals from owning capital?


ACA was a massive give away to the insurance companies. If anything the ACA perpetuates capitalism by making healthcare a commodity rather than a human right.
 
2012-11-30 03:29:49 PM  
Things like healthcare pretty much have to be socialized if you want to avoid some really farked up situations that arise when you apply capitalism to it. Capitalism gets pretty evil when some of the participants are left with the choice of paying or dying.
 
2012-12-01 10:23:08 AM  
Only a quarter? The Democrats are Fabian-esque socialists while the Republicans are national socialists. How is this news?
 
2012-12-01 11:47:24 AM  

Jarhead_h: Only a quarter? The Democrats are Fabian-esque socialists while the Republicans are national socialists. How is this news?


What a Democrat might look like:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
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