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(Gallup)   Not news: Half of Democrats have favorable impressions of socialism. Fark: So do a quarter of Republicans   (gallup.com) divider line 183
    More: Amusing, Democrats, Republican, socialism, capitalism  
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1270 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Nov 2012 at 4:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-29 02:27:58 PM
Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.
 
2012-11-29 02:30:28 PM
So, that's like 75% of America, right? Why not just declare a socialist victory, and we can all go back to hating the French.
 
2012-11-29 02:34:49 PM
This just in: Some people still don't understand the difference between Socialism and Communism.
 
2012-11-29 02:35:05 PM
Imagine what the numbers would be like if more Americans knew what socialism is.
 
2012-11-29 02:38:48 PM

unlikely: This just in: Some people still don't understand the difference between Socialism and Communism.


Hell, a significant number of douchebags don't know the difference between Stalinism and socialism. Or fascism and socialism.
 
2012-11-29 02:40:17 PM
Ask them like this:

"Should we keep or abolish Medicare?"

I would guess that close to 100% of republicans over 65 would answer that they love this form of socialism.

Or ask drivers:

"Would you prefer public roads remain as they are, or would you prefer a system wherein drivers pay a per-use fee to drive on them?

You get the idea.
 
2012-11-29 02:40:17 PM
Two bogus Gallup "survey" greens? No thanks.
 
2012-11-29 02:47:13 PM
So old people like Social Security? Shocking.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-29 02:49:51 PM

Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.


It's pretty much the same with capitalism, unless by "getting" you mean "getting it in the rear". The people who get to rob the middle class and poor live capitalism.
 
2012-11-29 02:56:20 PM

Lionel Mandrake: unlikely: This just in: Some people still don't understand the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Hell, a significant number of douchebags don't know the difference between Stalinism and socialism. Or fascism and socialism.


Or capitalism and corporate oligarchy.

"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion" - Adam Smith, "Communist Mani.. err um. "Wealth of Nations."
 
2012-11-29 02:58:06 PM
You could get 25% of Republicans to say Elvis is still alive, milk comes from cats or that they like the taste of bleach.

The fact that 94% were for Free Enterprise and only 72% were for Capitalism shows that you aren't dealing with Rhode Scholars or that 22% were Trekkies hoping for their own space ship.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-29 02:58:12 PM

vpb: Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.

It's pretty much the same with capitalism, unless by "getting" you mean "getting it in the rear". The people who get to rob the middle class and poor live capitalism.


Love I mean.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-29 03:06:02 PM
GOP definition of socialisim: Any system that seeks to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty.  See: bad.
 
2012-11-29 03:25:05 PM

vpb: GOP definition of socialisim: Any system that seeks to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for someone other than me.  See: bad.


Fixed.
 
2012-11-29 03:30:49 PM
Being a liberal in the Infantry (which is actually a dirty word to some guys I work with...), I'm often called on to try to defend "Obama's Socialist Takeover" of America. Here's my argument as to why some socialism is good, but all or none is bad:

"Look, you obviously don't actually know what socialism *IS*. The definition of socialism is, basically, 'government control of a certain industry.' That's not a perfect definition, but it's pretty close. That doesn't have to mean federal government. That can mean local, like city, county or state government. Now, an example of national socialism is actually our Army/Navy/Air Force, etc... We as a country have decided that it's better for government to control the method of national defense than to contract it out to mercenary groups (or at least we used to).

"An example of local socialism, such as city or county would be our fire department. You pay property taxes in some form, if you live off post. It's either part of your mortgage, like mine is, or it's calculated in the rent that you pay. Property taxes help pay for the fire department because the local government, of which we are a part, has decided that it is better for everyone to pay into a general fund, which is then used to run a city-wide fire fighting service. This is much better than a pure capitalistic model which has you needing to decide if you want Fire Fighting Company A, which is stationed closer to your house, but costs more, or Company B, which is a bit farther away, but costs less. Plus, you need to figure out which company has the better record of saving the house of fire vs. just keeping it contained and kept away from other houses. Is it worth the extra money for Company A? Does Company B have a better safety record?

"All that stuff is something that is basic to our security and way of life. What happens if the person living next to you decides that he will just be extra careful and not spend the extra 150-200 a month for fire fighting insurance. So when his house catches fire, he has no one to call. There's no 911 for fires. He doesn't have a contract with any fire fighting company, so now your house is in danger because you might not even know that his house is on fire until it's too big to fight. Now that fire can spread to your house, through no fault of your own.

Instead, a socialistic model is used to ensure that each homeowner pays towards the cost of operating a fire department. That way, everyone is covered in case of emergency, and your house is safer than it would be if you were dealing with a neighbor that refuses to spend the extra money because he doesn't think his house will catch fire.

"Now, an example of a BAD idea for socialism is McDonalds. Them, Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell, etc... they ALL are a good example of capitalism providing non-essential services, fast food specifically. Government absolutely should NOT try to take control of fast food production and sales, setting all the prices, control all the supply, etc... Gov't wouldn't be able to run any of those businesses as efficiently as each franchise or corporation that controls the stores. It might not run a fire fighting company as efficiently as a private venture either, but the little bit of waste that results isn't enough to justify dismantling and essential service and giving it to private enterprise the way it does with something non-essential like fast food.

There's already socialism in our country. It's part of what makes us great, coming together to ensure social safety and security. Military, Police, Fire Fighting, it's all socialist. The main point of argument is whether or not health care is essential enough to justify a socialistic model. I believe it does, because, once again, take your neighbor who didn't want to buy fire fighting insurance. He doesn't want to buy health insurance because he just doesn't have the money and he's healthy anyways, right? What happens when he gets sick with something minor, yet bad enough that he should go to the doctor? Well, it costs too much to do that out of pocket, so he's just going to keep working. Now he's spread a bad strain of the flu through all the workers in his company, the majority of which ALSO don't have health insurance because it costs too much right now. This adds up to lost productivity, possible health hazards depending on where they work, generally a bad situation. Socialized health care would help prevent this because he wouldn't have to worry about going to a doctor right when he gets sick, and is able to find out that his strain is pretty virulent, so he should stay home for a few days to rest up. He doesn't pay out of pocket expenses for the doctor's visit, maybe a little bit of money for the medicine, but now the company doesn't have the cascading effect of workers getting sick and unable to work as well for a week or two at least. They don't have to worry about potential health hazards from a large number of people working together suddenly having a virulent strain of the flu. Plus, with socialized health care, everyone pays in, the whole country, but not everyone is going to need it at one time. Therefore, they'll save money in the long run, paying a little bit higher in their tax percentage, but not having lost revenue or productivity from sick workers."

If they haven't fallen asleep by this point, most people will admit that I have a good point. Hopefully, I've changed a few minds, but I'm not too optimistic.
 
2012-11-29 03:32:19 PM
img546.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-29 03:32:48 PM
Sorry, Gallup could tell me that 99% of Americans say the sky is blue, and I would have trouble believing it. Gallup has some credibility to restore.
 
2012-11-29 03:46:08 PM

Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.


Fark you. I'm definitely in the giver camp given my tax bracket and I'm all for investing in improvements to the general welfare.

I find that making the country, as a whole, better improves my life, too and that you need to be a special kind of short-sighted asshole not to see that.

/ And you misspelled "enlightened self-interest". It doesn't start with an S.
 
2012-11-29 03:46:57 PM
Well, DUH, they're called RINOs.
 
2012-11-29 03:47:08 PM

Lansydyr: If they haven't fallen asleep by this point, most people will admit that I have a good point. Hopefully, I've changed a few minds, but I'm not too optimistic.


Most of your hard work can be undone pretty quickly by Rush Limbaugh.

Daily doses of "GRRRR! SOSHULISM BAAAAAD!!" is tough to counter with logic. 

But, who knows... I've found that giving examples of existing socialism (military, cops, firefighters) is a good way to go. We don't want a Walmart Army competing with a Costco Army.
 
2012-11-29 03:54:45 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: [img546.imageshack.us image 500x412]


This is how the GOP dies. With thunderous lulz.
 
2012-11-29 03:55:08 PM
We already have a mix of socialism and capitalism, now we're just arguing over ratios.
 
2012-11-29 03:57:08 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Lansydyr: If they haven't fallen asleep by this point, most people will admit that I have a good point. Hopefully, I've changed a few minds, but I'm not too optimistic.

Most of your hard work can be undone pretty quickly by Rush Limbaugh.

Daily doses of "GRRRR! SOSHULISM BAAAAAD!!" is tough to counter with logic. 

But, who knows... I've found that giving examples of existing socialism (military, cops, firefighters) is a good way to go. We don't want a Walmart Army competing with a Costco Army.


I don't mind admitting that I am a little optimistic that facts will hold sway if they only learn them. Most of them just aren't exposed to actual facts, ever. Take the Hostess situation for instance. Most people that only hear on Facebook that the unions drove the company to the ground had NEVER heard that the CEO's pay was raised from 750 thousand to 2.25 million! That many other executive pay raises and bonuses were handed out. Once they hear that, one guy said, "I can't even argue with that. You did your research." (actual quote, btw)
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-29 04:02:37 PM

Lansydyr: Being a liberal in the Infantry (which is actually a dirty word to some guys I work with...), I'm often called on to try to defend "Obama's Socialist Takeover" of America. Here's my argument as to why some socialism is good, but all or none is bad:

"Look, you obviously don't actually know what socialism *IS*. The definition of socialism is, basically, 'government control of a certain industry.' That's not a perfect definition, but it's pretty close. That doesn't have to mean federal government. That can mean local, like city, county or state government. Now, an example of national socialism is actually our Army/Navy/Air Force, etc... We as a country have decided that it's better for government to control the method of national defense than to contract it out to mercenary groups (or at least we used to).
......


There are different types of socialist with different ideas of what it means. Tony Blair is socialist, for instance.

Sometimes I think that Republicans and socialists have the same definition of socialism; anything that works for public good.
 
2012-11-29 04:16:31 PM

mrshowrules: milk comes from cats


Why, yes. Yes, it does.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-29 04:17:12 PM

Diogenes: Two bogus Gallup "survey" greens? No thanks.

 
2012-11-29 04:17:23 PM
Socialism is AWESOMO, take it from one who knows.
 
2012-11-29 04:17:31 PM

Diogenes: Two bogus Gallup "survey" greens? No thanks.


Drew needs bourbon.
Something something server upgrades.
 
2012-11-29 04:17:33 PM

Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.


It's hard to put a monetary value on the benefits of living in a society where the government makes sure your kids get an education, thereby making it more likely that they will end up as productive taxpayers instead of someone who might mug you. And then there's the whole "not having to worry about medical bills" thing and knowing that the govt will help you for a while should you lose your job for some reason.
 
2012-11-29 04:18:27 PM

mrshowrules: You could get 25% of Republicans to say Elvis is still alive, milk comes from cats or that they like the taste of bleach.

The fact that 94% were for Free Enterprise and only 72% were for Capitalism shows that you aren't dealing with Rhode Scholars or that 22% were Trekkies hoping for their own space ship.


Gettin' pretty sick of all the spaceship bashing around here
 
2012-11-29 04:19:42 PM

GAT_00: So old people like Social Security? Shocking.


I'm really not sure what Americans associate with socialism, but social security and medicaid/medicare don't seem to be a part of it.
 
2012-11-29 04:23:02 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: We already have a mix of socialism and capitalism, now we're just arguing over ratios.


In terms of health care insurance, you are only really debating the flavour of the collectivism for the portion not already socialized.
 
2012-11-29 04:23:58 PM

Lansydyr: Being a liberal in the Infantry (which is actually a dirty word to some guys I work with...), I'm often called on to try to defend "Obama's Socialist Takeover" of America. Here's my argument as to why some socialism is good, but all or none is bad:

"Look, you obviously don't actually know what socialism *IS*. The definition of socialism is, basically, 'government control of a certain industry.' That's not a perfect definition, but it's pretty close. That doesn't have to mean federal government. That can mean local, like city, county or state government. Now, an example of national socialism is actually our Army/Navy/Air Force, etc... We as a country have decided that it's better for government to control the method of national defense than to contract it out to mercenary groups (or at least we used to).

"An example of local socialism, such as city or county would be our fire department. You pay property taxes in some form, if you live off post. It's either part of your mortgage, like mine is, or it's calculated in the rent that you pay. Property taxes help pay for the fire department because the local government, of which we are a part, has decided that it is better for everyone to pay into a general fund, which is then used to run a city-wide fire fighting service. This is much better than a pure capitalistic model which has you needing to decide if you want Fire Fighting Company A, which is stationed closer to your house, but costs more, or Company B, which is a bit farther away, but costs less. Plus, you need to figure out which company has the better record of saving the house of fire vs. just keeping it contained and kept away from other houses. Is it worth the extra money for Company A? Does Company B have a better safety record?

"All that stuff is something that is basic to our security and way of life. What happens if the person living next to you decides that he will just be extra careful and not spend the extra 150-200 a month for fire fi ...


heehee
 
2012-11-29 04:25:08 PM

Lionel Mandrake: unlikely: This just in: Some people still don't understand the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Hell, a significant number of douchebags don't know the difference between Stalinism and socialism. Or fascism and socialism.


A significant number of Americans don't understand the difference between socialism and health insurance reform.

/Hell, let's be honest. A significant number of Americans don't understand the difference between socialism and puff pastry.
 
2012-11-29 04:26:01 PM

Spanky_McFarksalot: I'm really not sure what Americans associate with socialism,


"Some n-word is getting something for FREE" = socialism
"Welfare (be it SS, UI, whatever) check is here" = not socialism. Unless a black guy is getting it.
 
2012-11-29 04:27:19 PM

Lsherm: Everybody loves socialism as long as you get more than you're giving.


You know, some people would be embarrassed, to lie constantly and be wrong constantly and be called out about it constantly. But not you. You proudly herp the derp. A True American Hero.
 
2012-11-29 04:28:59 PM
On Capitalism

Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Finkel

Noam Chomsky: To begin with, I think terms like "capitalism" and "socialism" have been so evacuated of any substantive meaning that I don't even like to use them. There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence. To the extent there ever was, it had disappeared by the 1920s or '30s. Every industrial society is one form or another of state capitalism. But we'll use the term "capitalism," since that is more or less its present meaning.
 
2012-11-29 04:29:48 PM
Republicans have never had a problem with socialism for the rich.
 
2012-11-29 04:30:16 PM

GoodyearPimp: "Some n-word is getting something for FREE" = socialism
"Welfare (be it SS, UI, whatever) check is here" = not socialism. Unless a black guy is getting it.


You don't seem to be far off, except they don't tend to be too upset about white wall street bankers get a couple trillion.

I guess thats socialism...
 
2012-11-29 04:30:55 PM

mrshowrules: You could get 25% of Republicans to say Elvis is still alive, milk comes from cats or that they like the taste of bleach.

The fact that 94% were for Free Enterprise and only 72% were for Capitalism shows that you aren't dealing with Rhode Scholars or that 22% were Trekkies hoping for their own space ship.


cdn.hark.com
Could you milk me?
 
2012-11-29 04:31:32 PM
3/4ths of Republicans don't know what socialism is......or fascism.
 
2012-11-29 04:33:05 PM
I like socialism where it matters. Why DON'T we all own the natural resources of our country as citizens? Alaska has the right idea about that.

Same thing with health care. In the end, privatized health care is more concerned with a profit line than with giving care. Unless there is a better idea out there, we should let the state take care of it. Hell, WE ARE THE STATE, which is what I don't get about people who are so fearful of the government.

Where government control makes more sense, we should DO IT, and where it doesn't, let the free market work things out.
 
2012-11-29 04:33:46 PM

gilgigamesh: Ask them like this:

"Should we keep or abolish Medicare?"

I would guess that close to 100% of republicans over 65 would answer that they love this form of socialism.

Or ask drivers:

"Would you prefer public roads remain as they are, or would you prefer a system wherein drivers pay a per-use fee to drive on them?

You get the idea.


Actually, most probably still wouldn't. (My Ethical Abortion and what not)
 
2012-11-29 04:33:49 PM

Lansydyr: The definition of socialism is, basically, 'government control of a certain industry.'


Socialism is a system where distribution of goods and services are controlled by the people. The best example of actual socialism in our society would be corporate shareholders. They all pitch in to varying degrees, all have a say in what the company does, and all share in the dividends.
 
2012-11-29 04:35:35 PM
When you tell republicans about how the police, fire, roads, medicare and social security checks are all socialism, then they realized they've loved it all along.
 
2012-11-29 04:37:32 PM

Surool: When you tell republicans about how the police, fire, roads, medicare and social security checks are all socialism, then they realized they've loved it all along.


No, no, no, those things are like trees and grass they just grow out of the ground.
 
2012-11-29 04:38:27 PM

Citrate1007: 3/4ths of Republicans don't know what socialism is......or fascism.


apparently this is an affliction shared by many.

How else can both groups be overwhelmingly in favor of free enterprise, small business and entrepreneurs while still having a positive impression of socialism? I don't think most people think of the Fire Department off the top of their head when they hear the word socialism.
 
2012-11-29 04:38:59 PM
Um we've lived in a "socialst" country since the income tax constitutional amendment passed 90 years ago. The alternative is pure free market Great Gatsby booms and busts, far worse than the current economic fluctuations

Deal with reality. It make you a more functional human being
 
2012-11-29 04:39:47 PM
Remember the Republican mantra "It's not socialism when we do it!"
 
2012-11-29 04:39:59 PM
If you want a better understanding of Socialism go to open meeting. I know the Socialist branch that I am member of has open meetings constantly about a wide range of economic and/or social issues. We encourage people to attend.

DO NOT go to ISO meetings or CPUSA meetings.
 
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