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(Business Insider)   Less than a decade removed from being the #1 handset maker in the world, Nokia is pretty much down to patent trololo at this point   (businessinsider.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, Nokia, BlackBerry, wireless, container terminal, handsets, NYSE Composite, Computerworld  
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1386 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Nov 2012 at 10:58 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



39 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2012-11-28 10:59:28 AM  
This is what they get for buying product placement in Transformers
 
2012-11-28 11:06:42 AM  
More like patent BumFights, if they're down to wrestling RIM for lunch money.
 
2012-11-28 11:06:46 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org

I still remember the shortcuts.
 
2012-11-28 11:20:31 AM  
Should've taken a cue from Apple and made mandatory firmware updates that overtaxed the old phone but would run fine on the new phone.
 
2012-11-28 11:46:18 AM  

Carousel Beast: This is what they get for buying product placement in Transformers


No, this is what they get for putting a Microsoft guy in charge of everything.

/still happy with my N900
 
2012-11-28 11:52:20 AM  

starsrift: Should've taken a cue from Apple and made mandatory firmware updates that overtaxed the old phone but would run fine on the new phone.


Which is pretty much what would have happened had Microsoft ported the entire Windows Phone 8 software over to the Lumia 900, instead of just doing an update that added the new Start Screen UI and a few other Windows Phone 8 features to the existing OS, but they caught hell for not updating the Windows Phone 7.5 handsets anyway. You're damned if you, do damned if you don't with that.
 
2012-11-28 12:21:24 PM  

Lawnchair: More like patent BumFights, if they're down to wrestling RIM for lunch money.


if you don't take on everybody that infringes eventually you lose the right to take on anybody.
 
2012-11-28 12:33:47 PM  

king_nacho: Lawnchair: More like patent BumFights, if they're down to wrestling RIM for lunch money.

if you don't take on everybody that infringes eventually you lose the right to take on anybody.


You're thinking trademarks, not patents. There's no duty to enforce a patent.
 
2012-11-28 12:35:30 PM  
Interestingly, this isn't really a patent infringement case... It's about enforcing an arbitration judgement that they both had previously agreed to be bound by:
Nokia has asked a California court to enforce an arbitration award that would prevent Research In Motion from selling products with wireless LAN capabilities until the companies can agree on patent royalty rates.

Nokia and RIM both declined to comment on Nokia's request, a copy of which was obtained by IDG News Service, but such a filing is typically made after two parties settle a dispute through arbitration but one party does not follow through on the agreement.
 
2012-11-28 12:37:12 PM  

Ivo Shandor: No, this is what they get for putting a Microsoft guy in charge of everything


iirc, whatever platform nokia was developing before making a deal with microsoft was dead before elope joined. it was very far from finished and they were going to run out of operating capital. he made the deal with microsoft to keep nokia afloat, ms basically gave nokia $400mm. nokia might dominate the cellphone market but it's a low margin business, their main markets are third world countries. smartphones have higher returns and their main markets are eventually going to move on to smartphones.

if anyone's to blame for the windows phone failure, it's microsoft. wp7 was barely advertised when it came out a few years ago and now they're pushing out wp8.
 
2012-11-28 12:41:07 PM  
This is the future, suckers. Big businesses are going to have to turn into lawsuit mills to keep profits at current near-record levels unless we give them EVERYTHING THEY WANT, NOW! See where your economy winds up once they HOLD THEIR BREATH TILL THEY TURN BLUE WAAAA OBAMAAAA.
 
2012-11-28 01:07:17 PM  
This sucks. Nokias used to be awesome. First mobile phone my family ever had was a 252. That thing was a beast.
 
2012-11-28 01:18:40 PM  
I rode NOK from 2.75 to 3.20 in about a month; sold this week. I probably sold too early but no complaints about a quick 15% profit. Who knows where it's going from here... if Lumia/Asha sales figures are good, it still has a future as a cell phone maker. Otherwise...
 
2012-11-28 01:54:05 PM  

not5am: Ivo Shandor: No, this is what they get for putting a Microsoft guy in charge of everything

iirc, whatever platform nokia was developing before making a deal with microsoft was dead before elope joined. it was very far from finished and they were going to run out of operating capital. he made the deal with microsoft to keep nokia afloat, ms basically gave nokia $400mm. nokia might dominate the cellphone market but it's a low margin business, their main markets are third world countries. smartphones have higher returns and their main markets are eventually going to move on to smartphones.

if anyone's to blame for the windows phone failure, it's microsoft. wp7 was barely advertised when it came out a few years ago and now they're pushing out wp8.


I think it is to early to call it a failure, what would be considered a success? Would it have to pull 15% market share on day one? Android took a couple years to get going, so MS and RIM both still have time. I do think a big part of the failure is sticking with AT&T for the flagship device.

If you are going to push the crap out of a single handset, then that handset (nokia 920) should be on all carriers.
 
2012-11-28 02:17:39 PM  

not5am: Ivo Shandor: No, this is what they get for putting a Microsoft guy in charge of everything

iirc, whatever platform nokia was developing before making a deal with microsoft was dead before elope joined. it was very far from finished and they were going to run out of operating capital. he made the deal with microsoft to keep nokia afloat, ms basically gave nokia $400mm. nokia might dominate the cellphone market but it's a low margin business, their main markets are third world countries. smartphones have higher returns and their main markets are eventually going to move on to smartphones.

if anyone's to blame for the windows phone failure, it's microsoft. wp7 was barely advertised when it came out a few years ago and now they're pushing out wp8.


I agree. He made mistakes, but he really walked into a hot mess that the previous leadership left him with, and there was really no good option. Symbian was dying anyway, because there was just no way to update the platform into a modern smartphone OS without completely tearing it apart and rebuilding it from the ground up. Maemo/MeeGo/whatever the hell they were calling it this month had a good foundation but there was just no way that if was going to catch up with Android or iOS in terms of creating an app and service ecosystem. Had Nokia actually finished Maemo/MeeGo around 2009, it may have stood a chance, but by the time Elop took over that OS was way too far behind. Maybe they should have gone with a mix of Android and Windows Phone instead of going all in with Win Phone, but on the balance Microsoft was willing to throw a lot of cash at them for exclusivity, and going Android would have probably been disastrous for Nokia's software and service division like Navteq.
 
2012-11-28 02:31:38 PM  

king_nacho: I think it is to early to call it a failure, what would be considered a success? Would it have to pull 15% market share on day one? Android took a couple years to get going, so MS and RIM both still have time. I do think a big part of the failure is sticking with AT&T for the flagship device.

If you are going to push the crap out of a single handset, then that handset (nokia 920) should be on all carriers.


It is hard to tell with something like that. Apple and Samsung have built big enough brand names where the new iPhone and Galaxy can be sold on all of the carrier at launch, but for a manufacturer like Nokia they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. To get mindshare with the sales reps and marketshare with the customers, you have to have AT&T management fully behind your phone. By giving them an exclusive, you have sales reps being pushed from above to sell the Lumia 920s, so they are going to be really driven to spend a little more effort selling the Lumias over Galaxies and iPhones which are much easier to sell because they have hit that critical mass of public mindshare and app availability. If they offered the 920 in all of the carriers, then they would have had lukewarm support from the management and sale reps, which may have meant that the total units sold would have been less because it is just easier to sell someone a Galaxy or iPhone now.

Once Nokia and Windows Phone has more mindshare and marketshare, they can start throwing their weight around more like Apple and Samsung have, but right now they are kind of at the mercy of the carriers. They are basically banking on having a big enough success at AT&T that the other carriers will put their full support behind the Lumias, so they don't falter like the Trophy/Arrive did at Verizon and Sprint.
 
2012-11-28 02:38:16 PM  
I only got to Yellow belt in Taekwondo when I was a kid so I could be wrong here but this doesn't look like a successful block to me:

www.businessinsider.com
 
2012-11-28 02:45:59 PM  

GavinTheAlmighty: Nokias used to be awesome.


"Used to be" is the key phrase. The company eventually devolved into a series of fiefdoms, with each product group reinventing the wheel. You ended up with different phone series which had almost no consistency or relationship with each other. Some reports said that the product groups hated each other more than their outside competition.

The last Nokia phone I owned was a 2705, and it shared almost nothing with its dumbphone siblings from the same generation. One of the biggest complaints was with the UI - no two models were the same. At least the CDMA models were a little more consistent, but the GSM models were all over the place, with the AT&T phones being the worse. Then you had the problem of no two models sharing the same faceplates or batteries. When you jumped over to the Nokia smartphones, they might as well have been from a different company. I think the charger port and logo were the only common attribute brought over from the older phones.

I have to wonder how much it costs to make every phone a one-off model.
 
2012-11-28 02:51:00 PM  

king_nacho: I think it is to early to call it a failure, what would be considered a success? Would it have to pull 15% market share on day one? Android took a couple years to get going, so MS and RIM both still have time. I do think a big part of the failure is sticking with AT&T for the flagship device.

If you are going to push the crap out of a single handset, then that handset (nokia 920) should be on all carriers.


replacing the os after barely a year is what i would consider a failure, limiting it to one major carrier (in the us anyway) and barely any ad push of your main product as well.


Mad_Radhu: Had Nokia actually finished Maemo/MeeGo around 2009


that's the thing, nokia had no money to finish it. they were going to run out of operating captial in under a year. they posted huge operating losses after he joined.
 
2012-11-28 02:54:48 PM  

Mad_Radhu: king_nacho: I think it is to early to call it a failure, what would be considered a success? Would it have to pull 15% market share on day one? Android took a couple years to get going, so MS and RIM both still have time. I do think a big part of the failure is sticking with AT&T for the flagship device.

If you are going to push the crap out of a single handset, then that handset (nokia 920) should be on all carriers.

It is hard to tell with something like that. Apple and Samsung have built big enough brand names where the new iPhone and Galaxy can be sold on all of the carrier at launch, but for a manufacturer like Nokia they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. To get mindshare with the sales reps and marketshare with the customers, you have to have AT&T management fully behind your phone. By giving them an exclusive, you have sales reps being pushed from above to sell the Lumia 920s, so they are going to be really driven to spend a little more effort selling the Lumias over Galaxies and iPhones which are much easier to sell because they have hit that critical mass of public mindshare and app availability. If they offered the 920 in all of the carriers, then they would have had lukewarm support from the management and sale reps, which may have meant that the total units sold would have been less because it is just easier to sell someone a Galaxy or iPhone now.

Once Nokia and Windows Phone has more mindshare and marketshare, they can start throwing their weight around more like Apple and Samsung have, but right now they are kind of at the mercy of the carriers. They are basically banking on having a big enough success at AT&T that the other carriers will put their full support behind the Lumias, so they don't falter like the Trophy/Arrive did at Verizon and Sprint.


Very true. I'm interested in a third & fourth player in the market.
 
2012-11-28 03:01:17 PM  
Stupid.

Blackberry is circling the drain, anyway. Verizon is only paying token appreciation to Blackberry at this point. Nokia has nothing to worry about on this front. Nokia's Lumia Windows phone has the potential to be a game-changer against both iOS and Android. I wish they'd put more attention into improving that (it's a great little device, BTW) than patent-trolling.
 
2012-11-28 03:01:24 PM  
The problem with Nokia is that they're basically a radio/hardware company. And Nokia ruled the roost because when it was a lot about the hardware, they had the sort of hardware experience to make great phones.

Once the ARM chips got to a certain level of power, it became about the OS, UI and Applications and companies like Google and Apple understand all of that, and Nokia really didn't, and didn't catch up fast enough. Then they made a terrible decision of joining Microsoft instead of Google. They could have made some great Android phones.
 
2012-11-28 03:02:40 PM  

Dinjiin: GavinTheAlmighty: Nokias used to be awesome.

"Used to be" is the key phrase. The company eventually devolved into a series of fiefdoms, with each product group reinventing the wheel. You ended up with different phone series which had almost no consistency or relationship with each other. Some reports said that the product groups hated each other more than their outside competition.

The last Nokia phone I owned was a 2705, and it shared almost nothing with its dumbphone siblings from the same generation. One of the biggest complaints was with the UI - no two models were the same. At least the CDMA models were a little more consistent, but the GSM models were all over the place, with the AT&T phones being the worse. Then you had the problem of no two models sharing the same faceplates or batteries. When you jumped over to the Nokia smartphones, they might as well have been from a different company. I think the charger port and logo were the only common attribute brought over from the older phones.

I have to wonder how much it costs to make every phone a one-off model.


The older Verizon phones like the 2705 were odd birds, because often they weren't even made by Nokia because it was cheaper just to have Pantech or another vendor already making CDMA phones rebadge one of theirs as a Nokia, like with the 6315i:

gizmodo.com

Also, for Verizon featurephones, they basically replace the vendor UI with their own UI, so that way their reps and support staff only have to learn one menu system, which cuts down a lot on training costs because once you know how to support a RAZR you know how to get around a Nokia as well. The pre-Lumia Nokia phones were basically Nokia in Name Only.

Now, you still have the issue of covers not being compatible between carriers, with the 810/820/822 all using different covers and only the 810 and 822 sharing batteries, but at least with Windows Phone you have a consistent user interface across the board that none of the carriers can fark with. The case situation still sucks, though, when you only need one iPhone 5 case design for all three carriers it is on, which means you have a lot more choice in cases.
 
2012-11-28 03:28:42 PM  

not5am: Mad_Radhu: Had Nokia actually finished Maemo/MeeGo around 2009

that's the thing, nokia had no money to finish it. they were going to run out of operating captial in under a year. they posted huge operating losses after he joined.


When Elop took over, yes, MeeGo was a dead man walking and they were going to have to go with either Android or iOS. But prior to that they plenty of opportunity to take the work they had done with Maemo on the 770, N800, and N810 and turned that into a smartphone OS by mid-2009. They just had to get it out there before Android really got a foothold in late 2009, Instead, they took their time and half assed it with the N900, which was to big to be a phone and too small to be a tablet, and didn't ship the N9 (the first really usable version of Maemo/MeeGo) until 2011. They basically just stood with their thumbs up their asses from the time the iPhone launched until Elop took over. I don't know if it is because they went with Open Source (even on Symbian) and that doomed their development schedule, but they had all the time in the world to fix things before Android had a chance to catch on.
 
2012-11-28 03:32:36 PM  

farkeruk: The problem with Nokia is that they're basically a radio/hardware company. And Nokia ruled the roost because when it was a lot about the hardware, they had the sort of hardware experience to make great phones.

Once the ARM chips got to a certain level of power, it became about the OS, UI and Applications and companies like Google and Apple understand all of that, and Nokia really didn't, and didn't catch up fast enough. Then they made a terrible decision of joining Microsoft instead of Google. They could have made some great Android phones.


The Lumia 920 is basically identical to a GSIII under the hood, so I'm shocked that no one has yet tried to stick CyanogenMod on it. ICS even standardized Android on a three hardware button interface, just like Windows Phone.
 
2012-11-28 04:41:14 PM  
RIP:

b.vimeocdn.com
 
2012-11-28 05:53:48 PM  

Mad_Radhu: farkeruk: The problem with Nokia is that they're basically a radio/hardware company. And Nokia ruled the roost because when it was a lot about the hardware, they had the sort of hardware experience to make great phones.

Once the ARM chips got to a certain level of power, it became about the OS, UI and Applications and companies like Google and Apple understand all of that, and Nokia really didn't, and didn't catch up fast enough. Then they made a terrible decision of joining Microsoft instead of Google. They could have made some great Android phones.

The Lumia 920 is basically identical to a GSIII under the hood, so I'm shocked that no one has yet tried to stick CyanogenMod on it. ICS even standardized Android on a three hardware button interface, just like Windows Phone.


WP8 devices have some kind of secure boot(reason WP7 couldn't get WP8) so it might be hard to put Android on it
 
2012-11-28 06:04:08 PM  
We still have our 6110 plugged in at home for an emergency 911 phone.

Still using my Motorola RAZR, and when that dies I might go back to the Nokia if it's possible.
 
2012-11-29 01:58:11 AM  
The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

upload.wikimedia.org

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.
 
2012-11-29 02:17:45 AM  

starsrift: Should've taken a cue from Apple and made mandatory firmware updates that overtaxed the old phone but would run fine on the new phone.


Except for the part where that never happened.
 
2012-11-29 03:16:49 AM  
I miss my old 8290. It was years ahead of its time (excellent predictive text, infrared printing). Then they "upgraded" it to the 8320 which was larger and more cheaply built.

It was all downhill from there
 
2012-11-29 03:19:03 AM  

lordargent: The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x165]

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.



EGADS!
 
2012-11-29 03:33:27 AM  

lordargent: The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x165]

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.


Wow, it's been so long, I wouldn't have noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out.
 
2012-11-29 08:56:46 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: lordargent: The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x165]

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.

Wow, it's been so long, I wouldn't have noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out.


And to think, I could have gone my whole life without noticing.
 
2012-11-29 09:28:00 AM  

bingethinker: starsrift: Should've taken a cue from Apple and made mandatory firmware updates that overtaxed the old phone but would run fine on the new phone.

Except for the part where that never happened.


Google: "iphone slowed down after update"
About 128,000,000 results (0.30 seconds)

Never ever ever.
 
2012-11-29 10:04:28 AM  
The Nokia Lumia 920 is an amazing phone. Windows Phone 8 is an amazing OS. Convincing people to give it a legitimate shot is going to be tough though. Too many Apple and Android fansboy(girl)s who will refuse to give up Instagram for a few months. More users obviously translates to more developers. Most people are stuck in contracts so unless carriers are convinced to offer a phone like the Nokia Lumia 920 for $99.00 mid-contract, there isn't going to be a stampede of people rushing to it.

I have the 920 and couldn't be happier. I have just about every generation of iPod, a iPhone 3gs, 4, and 4S plus two iPad gen 1's in the house. They were all great in their day. The iPhone 5 just didn't have anything special. The Nokia Lumia 920 is a better device. I am not a phone gamer. I play games on a PC or sometimes the iPad. I don't give a crap about Instagram. I've only used it once or twice ever. While the app market is sparse and many of the apps are still Windows Phone 7.5, it is improving quickly. I have a nice set of apps that do everything I did on my iPhones with the exception of a nice Astronomy app that controls my telescope. But again, I would typically use an iPad instead.
 
2012-11-29 10:59:58 AM  

Millennium: ecmoRandomNumbers: lordargent: The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x165]

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.

Wow, it's been so long, I wouldn't have noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out.

And to think, I could have gone my whole life without noticing.



Goatse was the first thing I saw in that phone, and I had never seen it before this thread.

Does that make the depths of my psyche disturbed, or just internet-juvenile?
 
2012-11-29 11:43:22 AM  

starsrift: bingethinker: starsrift: Should've taken a cue from Apple and made mandatory firmware updates that overtaxed the old phone but would run fine on the new phone.

Except for the part where that never happened.

Google: "iphone slowed down after update"
About 128,000,000 results (0.30 seconds)

Never ever ever.


[inigomontoya.jpg]
 
2012-11-30 07:24:03 AM  

lordargent: The herald of the slow death of Nokia.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x165]

// once you goatse it, you'll shiat bricks.


Don't be dissin the side talkin' man...
 
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