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(SFGate)   For the first time ever, this year's MLB Hall of Fame balloting gets pretty dopey   (sfgate.com) divider line 184
    More: Unlikely, mlb hall of fame, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Cubs, Barry Bonds, Texas Rangers  
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1542 clicks; posted to Sports » on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



184 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-28 09:13:56 AM
Couldn't they just not select anyone?
 
2012-11-28 09:16:02 AM
Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss
 
2012-11-28 09:22:09 AM
First time ever? Not so much
 
2012-11-28 09:27:08 AM
Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines should all get in.
 
2012-11-28 09:28:24 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss


I think both Clemens and Bonds should one day be in the HOF. They should not be in on the first ballot, but both were great players before they juiced.

Although if Bonds should be remembered for any one feat it should be that he couldn't throw out Sid Bream.
 
2012-11-28 09:28:58 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss


Personally I think they should all be in. McGwire too. Put a note on their plaques if you have to.

What really bothers me is that Jeff Bagwell isn't in already. He should've been first ballot, and nobody's ever actually linked him to anything. The other guys, even though I want them in, I understand why others don't. But for Bagwell I see no reason.
 
2012-11-28 09:30:08 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss


I agree on Bonds -- he had a pretty good track record even before the steroids, and would have made it even if he retired in '99. For the same reason Sosa is probably not good enough without the roids. Clemens though -- do you think he was shooting up in his early career, or do you just think that performance wasn't good enough?
 
2012-11-28 09:34:22 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss


3 BIG FAT NOS.
 
2012-11-28 09:37:12 AM

AdmirableSnackbar: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss

I think both Clemens and Bonds should one day be in the HOF. They should not be in on the first ballot, but both were great players before they juiced.

Although if Bonds should be remembered for any one feat it should be that he couldn't throw out Sid Bream.


Who cares what ballot they get in on. either they belong or they don't.
 
2012-11-28 09:41:18 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss


One of the worst moments in baseball was watching the video of Hank Aaron "congratulating" Barry Bonds for breaking his career HR record. If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.
 
2012-11-28 09:41:36 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: /Discuss


Sosa - HELL NO


Exactly. The juicing was bad enough, but getting busted for the corked bat was his death knell.

Clemens - NO

Of the three, he has the best shot, since he got his day in court and the Feds rolled a 1.

Bonds - Maybe

1: His attitude did not endear him to people. And even though baseball writers (particularly HoF writers) are a bunch of thin-skinned, whiny, self-aggrandizing blowhards who perpetuate worthless crap like "unwritten rules" and "intangibles", they're right to hold it against a guy who would have been a first-ballot player had he not taken the juice and then rubbed everyone's nose in it while breaking the sport's two biggest records.

2: Anyone who couldn't throw out this guy in the playoffs obviously isn't qualified:

comingupsmall.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-28 09:44:12 AM

SkylineRecords: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss

One of the worst moments in baseball was watching the video of Hank Aaron "congratulating" Barry Bonds for breaking his career HR record. If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.


Nah, we can hold Rose out based on the fact that he was a cheater as well:

cache.deadspin.com
 
2012-11-28 09:46:58 AM
If I had a vote:

In: Raines, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Bonds
Out: Clemens, Sosa, Morris

Raines would already be in if he had played for anybody but Montreal and had retired instead of playing out the string with Baltimore and Florida. Bagwell and Biggio are no brainers and it would be cool to watch them go in together. Piazza was the best offensive catcher since Johnny Bench. Not comparing his overall ability to Bench, since Piazza had a wet noodle for an arm, but Piazza gets in. Bonds gets in, too. I'm not getting into an argument as to why, because we'd be here forever. But he's in.

Clemens is out because he's a dick. Sosa is out because he's a dick. Morris is out because, well, if Jim Kaat isn't in, he's not either.

Just my opinions, make of them what you will.
 
2012-11-28 09:47:57 AM
No on Sosa, yes on Clemens, I want to say no on Bonds but you really can't
 
2012-11-28 09:48:06 AM

UNC_Samurai: SkylineRecords: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss

One of the worst moments in baseball was watching the video of Hank Aaron "congratulating" Barry Bonds for breaking his career HR record. If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.

Nah, we can hold Rose out based on the fact that he was a cheater as well:

[cache.deadspin.com image 640x480]


I'm not saying Rose deserves to be in the HoF. I'm saying that Bonds doesn't.
 
2012-11-28 09:51:32 AM

Cubs300: Morris is out because, well, if Jim Kaat isn't in, he's not either.


Jack Morris : Jim Kaat :: Jim Plunkett : Vinny Testaverde
 
2012-11-28 09:52:04 AM
Has it been five years for Sosa? Wow! I guess the presence of Soriano in the Cubs' lineup made me forget that Sammy isn't still patrolling the Friendly Confines.
 
2012-11-28 09:52:37 AM
The HOF is a museum dedicated to the history of the game, a big part of that history includes the steroid era. I think all of the players associated with steroids should be in.

However, a new wing of the HOF should be created that says which players either were suspected of, linked to, or have admitted steroid use. Their accomplishments on the field did happen and should be remembered but also remembered as the tainted accomplishments that they are. Same applies for Pete Rose and anyone worthy on the Black Sox or any other scandal where people are banned for life. Just because we don't like what they did doesn't mean we can ignore that part of the history of the game.

For some reason they can't accept that reality though.
 
2012-11-28 09:53:26 AM

ghall3: I think all of the players associated with steroids* should be in.


*With HOF numbers etc.
 
2012-11-28 09:56:18 AM

ghall3: The HOF is a museum dedicated to the history of the game, a big part of that history includes the steroid era. I think all of the players associated with steroids should be in.

However, a new wing of the HOF should be created that says which players either were suspected of, linked to, or have admitted steroid use. Their accomplishments on the field did happen and should be remembered but also remembered as the tainted accomplishments that they are. Same applies for Pete Rose and anyone worthy on the Black Sox or any other scandal where people are banned for life. Just because we don't like what they did doesn't mean we can ignore that part of the history of the game.

For some reason they can't accept that reality though.


Not sure that I'd go as far as to create a whole new wing, but this pretty much sums up my position. It's a museum. Regardless of steroids or whatever else, the history of baseball would be incomplete without at least acknowledging these players.
 
2012-11-28 10:00:14 AM

WTF Indeed: Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines should all get in.


FreakinB: What really bothers me is that Jeff Bagwell isn't in already. He should've been first ballot, and nobody's ever actually linked him to anything. The other guys, even though I want them in, I understand why others don't. But for Bagwell I see no reason.


I came here to say both of these things.....
 
2012-11-28 10:00:35 AM

ghall3: The HOF is a museum dedicated to the history of the game, a big part of that history includes the steroid era. I think all of the players associated with steroids should be in.

However, a new wing of the HOF should be created that says which players either were suspected of, linked to, or have admitted steroid use. Their accomplishments on the field did happen and should be remembered but also remembered as the tainted accomplishments that they are. Same applies for Pete Rose and anyone worthy on the Black Sox or any other scandal where people are banned for life. Just because we don't like what they did doesn't mean we can ignore that part of the history of the game.

For some reason they can't accept that reality though.


Oh no, I think that the museum part of the Hall of Fame should detail every nasty thing about the history of baseball. Steroids, segregation, blackballing, down to Ty Cobb beating up a crippled veteran over a racial slur. That's why if I was the exhibitions manager I'd take that ball that Mark Ecko gave the HoF with the asterisk on it, and put it in the front center of the Wing of Controversy, and have an exhibit explaining why the ball is marked that way.

But you can establish a difference between what's discussed in the museum and who has a plaque inside the center hall. You don't need the collection of plaques to tell the narrative of the history of the sport.

/hell, my museum honors a guy known for his spitball
 
2012-11-28 10:00:41 AM

SuperChuck: AdmirableSnackbar: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss

I think both Clemens and Bonds should one day be in the HOF. They should not be in on the first ballot, but both were great players before they juiced.

Although if Bonds should be remembered for any one feat it should be that he couldn't throw out Sid Bream.

Who cares what ballot they get in on. either they belong or they don't.


Thank you. The first ballot thing is one of the stupidest things about hall of fame balloting. I like how Roberto Alomar suddenly got better in his second year of candidacy, for example. The only reason anyone should get bumped like that is if there are several players in the class that were better and the maximum entrants get reached before it gets to that person.

Clemens and Bonds both deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. So does A-Rod and McGwire. I think all those guys were great players pretty much throughout their careers. I think a ton of people did use and still use performance enhancing drugs and baseball allowed it. That shame needs to be reflected in the Hall of Fame. The corked bat on Sosa was really, really bad. And he was basically an average player throughout his 20's so I'm a no on him.

And I have no idea why Jeff Bagwell isn't already in the Hall, but he should be. Only 41% of the vote his first year was mind boggling to me. 

I think Frank Thomas has his first year of eligibility next year, and I'm definitely a yes on him.
 
2012-11-28 10:01:33 AM
They should be in and there's no reason to put in asterisks, since every goddamn generation is going to be using whatever they can in order to make themselves perform as well as they can. No one had any problem with people using amphetamines in the '70s to get over the mind-numbing boringness of a 162-game season of the most boring sport possible, you don't get to act like steroids were a travesty. You b*tches loved that sh*t the whole time it was happening and you've reacted to finding out about it like a dumbass teenage girl. "OMG EW I CAN'T BELIEVE I EVER LOVED YOU! I HOPE YOU ROT IN HELL!"

STFU, they were the best players of their generation and they deserve to be in.

The game has never been pure and it never will be, so when you get all that bullsh*t out of your head, maybe you'll do the right thing. Honestly, baseball traditionalists are pretty much cut from the same cloth as religious zealots, ignoring facts and actual history for their own truth as written by the holy sportswriters.
 
2012-11-28 10:07:50 AM

Arkanaut: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Clemens - NO
Sosa - HELL NO
Bonds - Maybe

/Discuss

I agree on Bonds -- he had a pretty good track record even before the steroids, and would have made it even if he retired in '99.


see i have a question here...

Why cant you say "Rose had a pretty good track record even before the gambling" ?

You have to judge a player by his career as a whole.

If he chose to cheat, then you have to hold him accountable to some standard so it sets a precedent for others

Bonds fate is/was sealed as soon as the Balco story broke.

The interesting question for me is how will people react if an african american and hispanic are denied while a white man walks in?

Bonds and Sosa both got caught red handed, but Clemens survived 2 trials... is it possible he might slip by?

If so, how many ESPNers will throw the race card? Is it fair?
 
2012-11-28 10:12:14 AM

IAmRight: They should be in and there's no reason to put in asterisks, since every goddamn generation is going to be using whatever they can in order to make themselves perform as well as they can. No one had any problem with people using amphetamines in the '70s to get over the mind-numbing boringness of a 162-game season of the most boring sport possible, you don't get to act like steroids were a travesty. You b*tches loved that sh*t the whole time it was happening and you've reacted to finding out about it like a dumbass teenage girl. "OMG EW I CAN'T BELIEVE I EVER LOVED YOU! I HOPE YOU ROT IN HELL!"

STFU, they were the best players of their generation and they deserve to be in.

The game has never been pure and it never will be, so when you get all that bullsh*t out of your head, maybe you'll do the right thing. Honestly, baseball traditionalists are pretty much cut from the same cloth as religious zealots, ignoring facts and actual history for their own truth as written by the holy sportswriters.


It's so cute watching you take being an asshole to a whole new level.
 
2012-11-28 10:14:05 AM
A triple no to Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Shilling ought to get in on the first ballot, so should Piazza. Biggio may need another year.
 
2012-11-28 10:14:52 AM
*
 
2012-11-28 10:15:46 AM

smerfnablin: Why cant you say "Rose had a pretty good track record even before the gambling" ?


Gambling on the sport can actually kill a league (and did kill or nearly kill many leagues of a long time ago, because people have little interest in watching sports with fixed outcomes. Steroids have no chance of killing a league, and in fact, are partly responsible for the league's boom following the strike of '94. Steroids don't fix games or help predetermine outcomes like a manager who is betting on his team's games unless only a couple of teams are allowed to use them. If everyone is allowed to use them (and everyone was), then who cares? People that claim "they're a bad example for our kids?" Sorry you can't be a better role model for your kids, guys, but that's not their fault.

No one ACTUALLY cares about steroids (look at the NFL). People just pretend they do after they're told someone is using them because they love the sh*t out of being holier-than-thou and feeling like they're morally superior to others.
 
2012-11-28 10:17:01 AM

IAmRight: They should be in and there's no reason to put in asterisks, since every goddamn generation is going to be using whatever they can in order to make themselves perform as well as they can. No one had any problem with people using amphetamines in the '70s to get over the mind-numbing boringness of a 162-game season of the most boring sport possible, you don't get to act like steroids were a travesty. You b*tches loved that sh*t the whole time it was happening and you've reacted to finding out about it like a dumbass teenage girl. "OMG EW I CAN'T BELIEVE I EVER LOVED YOU! I HOPE YOU ROT IN HELL!"

STFU, they were the best players of their generation and they deserve to be in.

The game has never been pure and it never will be, so when you get all that bullsh*t out of your head, maybe you'll do the right thing. Honestly, baseball traditionalists are pretty much cut from the same cloth as religious zealots, ignoring facts and actual history for their own truth as written by the holy sportswriters.


So what your saying is both Ruth and Aaron were hopped up PEDs drugs when they hit all their homeruns?? Thanks, I learned something new today. oh and FARK BONDS!!!
 
2012-11-28 10:17:43 AM
Rose deserves to be there, and the fact that he isn't is just the greatest battle of dickwankery in the history of sports.

That being said, yes to Bonds & Clemens (though I would literally walk the 300 miles or so to Cooperstown if they put "world class asshole" on Roger's plaque), VC to Sosa because he deserves to be a VC. Good, but he had his weaknesses.

IAmRight: The game has never been pure and it never will be, so when you get all that bullsh*t out of your head, maybe you'll do the right thing. Honestly, baseball traditionalists are pretty much cut from the same cloth as religious zealots, ignoring facts and actual history for their own truth as written by the holy sportswriters.


This book should be prerequisite reading for these threads, because it puts your point in bold, glaring neon letters on a sign across the street from the Hall. They *are* dicks, and will probably always *be* dicks.
 
2012-11-28 10:18:04 AM

The Smails Kid: It's so cute watching you take being an asshole to a whole new level.


Let me know when I say anything that's untrue, though. As long as I'm the one saying the truth while everyone else is holding onto bullsh*t nostalgia, I'm cool with it.
 
2012-11-28 10:19:16 AM

SkylineRecords: If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.


I'm an anti-steroids guy, but betting on baseball is worse than using steroids. By a lot.
 
2012-11-28 10:22:14 AM
Barry Bonds standing up and making a HoF acceptance speech will do more harm to MLB in a century since the 1919 White Sox threw the world series

Dont believe me? Read this

www.counterbalancearts.org
 
2012-11-28 10:24:46 AM

eas81: So what your saying is both Ruth and Aaron were hopped up PEDs drugs when they hit all their homeruns?? Thanks, I learned something new today. oh and FARK BONDS!!!


Aaron? Probably. Ruth played in an era where players had other jobs and most guys could, at best, be considered temporary players. Not to mention segregation. So yeah, it's like taking some current pro players and mixing them in to an A ball league, then acting as though HOLY SH*TBALLS THESE GUYS ARE AMAZING. The overall level of talent wasn't there.

Now guys are going against DHs, situational pitchers, closers, with advanced scouting, etc., not to mention the best players from a MUCH larger talent base that continues to expand, and we're going to act as though it's a comparable situation?
 
2012-11-28 10:26:27 AM

smerfnablin: Barry Bonds standing up and making a HoF acceptance speech will do more harm to MLB in a century since the 1919 White Sox threw the world series

Dont believe me? Read this

[www.counterbalancearts.org image 410x600]


Oh Jesus Christ dude - no it won't. Yes, the man cheated. And yes, cheating got him two of the most cherished records in the game. But the 1919 Black Sox scandal nearly killed the goddamn sport. Putting Bonds in the Hall will not even come close to that.
 
2012-11-28 10:26:30 AM
I'm still ambivalent regarding steroid-era players in the Hall, but please don't bring up Pete Rose in the same discussion. The two instances are completely different and should not be treated similarly.

Steroid-using players, whether they were breaking the rules or not, were trying to perform better. While what they were doing might have screwed with the "sanctity" of baseball's records, I tend to agree with writers that point out that every era has its idiosyncrasies and embarrassments that influence the stats from those years. Changing mound heights, changing ball specifications, expansion, Astroturf, and... oh, yeah, the exclusion of an entire race from the game all had subtle or profound impacts on the game. Sure, the players were looking for an edge that might have been one (or more) step(s) too far, but every step was in an effort to play the game better, and that's what fans pay to see: their team and/or players performing as best as they can.

When players or managers are gambling, on the other hand, one never knows whether or not they are making their best efforts to win (whether short or long term). The potential for such a player/manager to affect their team's performance negatively is what makes gambling such an unforgivable sin: it raises doubt as to whether or not the paying customer is getting the product that they paid to see.

That's why I tend to have a certain level of sympathy for PED-users but will never have any consideration whatsoever for Pete Rose. We paid McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds to hit home runs: we got what we paid for. We paid Pete Rose to try to win baseball games (as a manager), and we can't know whether or not we got that effort. That is the critical difference in my opinion.
 
2012-11-28 10:28:29 AM
Kirby Puckett is already in.
 
2012-11-28 10:32:48 AM

IAmRight: eas81: So what your saying is both Ruth and Aaron were hopped up PEDs drugs when they hit all their homeruns??

Aaron? Probably. Ruth played in an era where players had other jobs and most guys could, at best, be considered temporary players. Not to mention segregation


Hank Aaron benefited from the fact that Willie Mays spent half his career playing in the home run-eating hole that was Candlestick Park. Barry was just bringing the record home for his godfather.
 
2012-11-28 10:32:53 AM

GAT_00: A triple no to Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Shilling ought to get in on the first ballot, so should Piazza. Biggio may need another year.


Shilling isn't a a first ballot HoFer... The stats just aren't there maybe 5 year down the road once the BBWAA has established a new benchmark for wins ( I say it should be 250 which means he still wouldn't get in).

Sosa Bonds and Clemens should all be in first ballot. 300 wins or 500 HRs is automatic and steroids or not they should be in the HoF. I can't stand Clemens or Bonds but someone's feelings toward a person shouldn't merit whether they are HoF worthy or not.

And also steroids were the culture during the era all of these players played. Everyone juiced, Piazza juiced, Bagwell juiced hell I wouldn't be surprised if biggio juiced a little... There are steroid users in the HoF already just let them all in and be done with it.
 
2012-11-28 10:33:05 AM
Proposal: Since the HOF is supposed to document the history of baseball, put Bonds in as an exhibition, rather than a permanent enshrinement. Detail the single-season and all-time home run records, warts and all, But the point is that eventually, those two records will be broken and 'purity' will be restored. Then, enshrine the new record holder(s) and move the Bonds exhibit to a larger exhibit focusing on the questions of the 'Steroids Era'.

Most likely, though, Bonds won't be inducted until the last possible ballot for him.
 
2012-11-28 10:34:56 AM
Random question because I am not sure of the answer: How does the HoF display the 756 ball?

cdn.faniq.com 

That has to have some relevance to this discussion so Im asking anyone who knows...
 
2012-11-28 10:35:11 AM

A thread on HOF candidates? Today is a most appropriate time to say it:

MARVIN MILLER


/whar Marvin thread?
 
2012-11-28 10:35:25 AM

Rex_Banner: SkylineRecords: If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.

I'm an anti-steroids guy, but betting on baseball is worse than using steroids. By a lot.


Care to explain the logic behind that train of thought??
 
2012-11-28 10:35:26 AM

JayCab: Sure, the players were looking for an edge that might have been one (or more) step(s) too far, but every step was in an effort to play the game better, and that's what fans pay to see: their team and/or players performing as best as they can.


And ultimately, let's point out that people are totally cool with eye surgery to help people see better than 20/20 (vision helps a LOT, especially in hitting), with perhaps unnecessary Tommy John surgery (because supposedly you can come back stronger from it after a year off), with all kinds of other enhancements to natural ability...but somehow steroids is too far.

It's fine when you're going beyond your natural abilities in some ways, but not with drugs, because drugs are bad, guys, mmkay?
 
2012-11-28 10:37:04 AM

WTF Indeed: Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines should all get in.


This, this, this and this. Bagwell's omission is shocking. Apparently anyone who was a power hitter in the 90s is apparently under suspicion, just because.
 
2012-11-28 10:40:21 AM

SkylineRecords: Rex_Banner: SkylineRecords: If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.

I'm an anti-steroids guy, but betting on baseball is worse than using steroids. By a lot.

Care to explain the logic behind that train of thought??


JayCab already did above.
 
2012-11-28 10:40:51 AM
Sorry i fail at wikipedia...

This here is what i was curious about

I think that sets the table for how the HoF feels about this situation
 
2012-11-28 10:42:41 AM

SkylineRecords: Rex_Banner: SkylineRecords: If Pete Rose is banned for gambling, there's no way anyone who's ever 'roided should get a spot on the ballot.

I'm an anti-steroids guy, but betting on baseball is worse than using steroids. By a lot.

Care to explain the logic behind that train of thought??


This has been explained already in here, but.....

Steroids threaten the statistics of the game - and that's bad. The numbers are important in baseball, probably more so than in any other sport. However, at the end of the day, they are not threatening anything about the game itself. Gambling, on the other hand, threatens the very competitiveness of the game. Players that are in cahoots with gamblers can not be trusted to faithfully execute their duties on the field. Gambling has hurt and nearly killed the sport in the past. Steroids, while bad, have not come close to that, and never will come close to that.
 
2012-11-28 10:43:48 AM
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa will get in. I don't know about this year, especially Sosa, but their numbers are just too good. PED's? I'm sure at some point most writers/historians can properly frame the era from 1995-2008 (when would it end, the Mitchell Report?) as the Steroid Era, and most have already.

We don't make a huge fuss that players from the 50's-70's were taking greenies (essentially speed) or make a really big deal about the cocaine scandal of the early-mid 80's anymore. Hell, the players taking greenies included some of the widely acknowledged legends of the game. As of right now, the only player with coke implications even being considered for the HoF is Rock Raines. As IAmRight alluded to, there is always something that can detract from a player's legend. In the case of Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa, the numbers are too big and eventually they will be recognized, however sad it must be. Remember, this isn't the Hall of Good Guys in Baseball, it's the Hall of Fame, and they did get pretty damn famous on the field, even/especially with the help they got off of it.

Out of the rest TFA named on the ballot, Biggio and Morris stand the best chance of getting in first. Piazza should get in, Schilling based on "legend" alone. If Rock Raines makes it, he'll be the first of the coke group to get in, and if Bonds/Clemens get in, then Bagwell is a no-brainer (it's unfair to him so far, but that's how it goes), as well as McGwire and Palmerio (it'd be dumb to have a double-standard on the roids issue at that point) if they're still on the ballot.
 
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