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(Telegraph)   UK: I know, we'll tax the rich 50%. They'll just lie back and think of England. The rich: My oh my, but isn't tax exile lovely this time of year   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 281
    More: Obvious, Lib Dems, parliamentary debate, Ed Miliband, cull, tax rates, Britain, income taxes  
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10790 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2012 at 8:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-28 10:24:34 AM

MoxieLover: OK, then do whatever you can to block, prevent, or disable the robber. The point is, the government is trying to take too much of a person's income; that person should do whatever they can (like voting against those who support the robbery, enacting laws to block the robber, hide assets, reduce taxable income to just-below the higher percentage rate, move to a more tax-friendly place) to block the robber. If the taxation increases for the wealthy, and the government employment numbers would benefit, or the lazies would be given the fruits of the productives' efforts or inheritances or risks taken, or the wealth would be redistributed, then there is nothing wrong with doing whatever is necessary to block the robber.


My point is (besides that referring to taxation as robbery is silly) all those actions you just listed are reasonable responses if you think you're over-taxed. All the things the guy in the article did are reasonable things to do to maximize the enjoyment of your life. Doing a simple CBA on the work arrangement in your household in light of a changing tax structure is a reasonable and responsible thing to do. Proclaiming that you're doing it to "go Galt" and somehow stick it to the man is petulant and childish.
 
2012-11-28 10:25:33 AM

SlothB77: keep raising taxes, thereby reducing revenues


Say what?
 
2012-11-28 10:27:54 AM

thurstonxhowell: King Of The Monkeys: Brother A is perceived as a victim.
Brother B is perceived as an evil selfish bastard.

Neat strawmen. Have you ever tried shoving it up your ass?


You sound like "Brother A"
 
2012-11-28 10:29:55 AM

Mr. Carpenter: My wife is deliriously happy, our children are delighted to have mom home, the dog gets more walks, and I find not spending money rapturously satisfying. "

I hope you get pancreatic cancer and insurance only covers 200k,


Why? Their math is pretty cocked up, but there is nothing wrong with their outcome of having a one income household, a bit of work-life balance, and participating in a legitimate tax deferment plan (which usually means putting money into retirement, which keeps you off the dole in the future). That's not going Galt, that's going Ward Cleever, and we should be pushing to create a society where that is enabled. The sad thing is that in this country, the majority of the wealthy aren't producing anything near their compensation, so if they quit in defiance they are lowering costs WAY more than output. It's a good deal. Now just let the inheritance tax come back (with a suitably high exemption) so we can get the Paris Hiltons' capital moving towards merit eventually and it's a good path.
 
2012-11-28 10:30:08 AM

Lord Summerisle: Been working and paying a large chunk of my salary in tax and NI since I was 17, chum. Which is more than most of these rich coonts can say, most of whom owe their wealth to being born into the privileged classes and who use the loopholes and tax havens provided for them to avoid paying their share.


You're so mad at their parents for being rich. Maybe you should be more angry with your parents for being so poor...
 
2012-11-28 10:30:26 AM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: madgonad: As a fraud investigator, I have laughed at Fair Taxers when they suggest it. Creating fake people has been used for ages to seek lawful employment and apply for credit. Now imagine being able to get a $10k check for every fake person you can make? Yeah, the idea was thought-up by retards trying to shore-up some numbers in their highly flawed model. Flat taxes only work when there is very little wage disparity and no poverty.

And the current system isn't vulnerable to fraud? Isn't that exactly what this thread is about? Rich people pretending not to owe taxes via a loophole?

Actually, is any system not subject to widescale fraud? Actually I'd tend to think handing out checks would be fairly easy to keep on the straight-and-narrow if you just require people to show up in-person with a photo ID to collect. I'm pretty sure a few fraudulent $10k checks here and there would be a lot smaller loss than millions upon millions in tax dodges.


Why would you assume that system would eliminate tax dodges? Would people suddenly stop hiding income just to make the system make sense?
 
2012-11-28 10:30:29 AM
HAMMERTOE: Funny how it NEVAR occurs to the rich to actually pay a decent wage to the lower classes, thereby raising their tax bracket (and resulting in their shouldering

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: HAMMERTOE: Funny how it NEVAR occurs to the rich to actually pay a decent wage to the lower classes, thereby raising their tax bracket (and resulting in their shouldering a larger burden of the total tax collected.)

Try to get past your deluded view of the world for just a sec and admit that some rich people are assholes but some are decent people who deserve what success they have achieved.
Also admit that some poor people are poor because of they chose to be. They are lazy and not willing to work hard to be successful.

//And not all rich people are in a position to dictate the wages paid of other people.

//We applaud hard work and success in athletics but not in society. WTF?

 
2012-11-28 10:32:28 AM

Fade2black: Lord Summerisle: They all left? Good. Piss off, you psychopathic bastards.

Who's gonna pay for your free stuff now?

God forbid you get up off your ass and work for a living.


Where the fark is this free shiat you fine hard working real Americans keep going on about?
Seriously, what new handout from that scary Kenyan is currently responsible for crushing our democracy and makes life so radically different than America circa 2007....show your notes bro, share plz!
 
2012-11-28 10:32:50 AM

thespindrifter: California is about to learn this very hard lesson the usual way: increase taxes on the wealthiest members of society, and if they have other options (such as living where taxes are less) then they can afford to leave and enjoy that option, leaving the poor behind. California is about to learn that increasing estimated "revenue" while driving away the people who earn that revenue will in fact result in missing their projections by quite a lot. Also, the ones who actually choose to stay will find other ways around the problem:

"After the election, my wife and I are going partial Galt. We're in California, so our state income tax went up in addition to what's sure to come out of Washington.

My wife quit her job last week. I increased my participation in a tax deferment plan offered by my employer to bring my taxable income as close to $250K as possible. We'll be cutting back a little, but the government is going to getting a whole lot less.

My wife's entire salary barely covered our tax bill - she was 100% slave to the government, while I was a 10% slave. Now she is 100% free, and I'll be a ~35% slave As a couple, 17.5% of our time is slaving on the government plantation from an astounding 55% previously.

My wife is deliriously happy, our children are delighted to have mom home, the dog gets more walks, and I find not spending money rapturously satisfying. "




Why on earth woiuld they try to make less than $250k when dealing with marginal tax rates?

You do understand that you are taxed at the higher rates on the income OVER $250k right?

Tax deferment to make reported income around $250k makes sense. The wife taking time off to be with the kids makes sense. Stopping work because you think you will take home less if you earn more is pants on head retarded.

If you make $300k, only the $50k above 250 would be taxed at a higher rate.

Looking here:
(https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2012_California_Tax_Rates_and_Exemption s .shtml)

...it looks like for a single income earner they are taxed at 9.3% up to $250k, then at 10.3% on any income OVER $250k. A Whole 1% difference! On additional income.


Stop derping.
 
2012-11-28 10:37:33 AM
So don't let them do business in the UK after they've expatriated. CEO of a widget manufacturer? If you leave the country to avoid taxes, you can no longer run the business. Any money made overseas must be taxed at the UK rate before it can be brought back into the country. Any product made overseas must be tariffed up to the level of what it would cost to make in the UK before it can be imported.

Now it won't cost anything. Millionaires can go retire somewhere else if they like, but they will leave their jobs behind them to someone who is happy to pay 50% for the opportunity to make seven figures.
 
2012-11-28 10:40:25 AM

madgonad: As a fraud investigator, I have laughed at Fair Taxers when they suggest it. Creating fake people has been used for ages to seek lawful employment and apply for credit. Now imagine being able to get a $10k check for every fake person you can make? Yeah, the idea was thought-up by retards trying to shore-up some numbers in their highly flawed model. Flat taxes only work when there is very little wage disparity and no poverty.


Social.

Security.

Numbers.

Computer databases.

Fake people won't pay off for them unless there's a fake SSN and "Taxes Paid" number in the appropriate slot in the database to go along with that name. In fact, there could be a cell, rather than a check for them.
 
2012-11-28 10:43:38 AM

HAMMERTOE: Fake people won't pay off for them unless there's a fake SSN and "Taxes Paid" number in the appropriate slot in the database to go along with that name. In fact, there could be a cell, rather than a check for them.


maki.page8productions.com
You want a fake SSN? I can get you a fake SSN, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me.
 
2012-11-28 10:43:41 AM

DrPainMD: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: This sounds lke a win-win type of story? They still can live lavishly on $250,000/year, wife can stay home with kids and the dog, her old job can be filled by someone who actually NEEDS a job to support their family (and who will pay taxes on the money they earn so the government will still get theirs whether it comes from this woman or not). What is bad about this?

Win-win? How so? With his wife's lack of income and him reducing/deferring his, they will have less to spend (costing the economy jobs) and will pay less in taxes (reducing the jobs that the government can create). Any way you look at it, the effect on GDP and jobs will be negative.


Nope, his wife isn't erasing her job, she is merely not working it anymore. There will be someone else filling her position. Spending her paycheck to increase the GDP and paying her taxes...all this situation did was oopen up a job for someone who obviously needs it more desperately and give the wife more time to spend with her family.
 
2012-11-28 10:45:26 AM

Thats No Moose: SlothB77: keep raising taxes, thereby reducing revenues

Say what?


Apparently you read neither this thread nor the article.

{16,000 x 0.45% x $1,000,000} > {6,000 x 0.50% x $1,000,000}

Notice how the one with the higher tax rate has the lower total?
 
2012-11-28 10:52:08 AM
Why can't we agree with the widely-accepted and unbiased charts that if taxation rises too far as compared to neighboring options, revenue goes down, and the trick is to raise taxes just to the level of your competition, not above it?


In this case some of the decline was due to the economy in general, but some was undoubtedly due to the options the wealthier have, such as claiming residency in a different country?


Conversely, if taxation is too low, revenues fall. I'm not talking about a simplistic Laffer Curve, so don't knock it down. I'm saying people will tend to work to improve their lives, but if there is an easy out to reduce their tax burden they will take it. How many of you liberals and moderates don't take any deductions on your personal taxes?

I've gotten to the point I hate dogma from both sides. England went too far with their top rate as compared to much of their competition. We may be a couple of points too low as compared to our competition. We need to cut spending AND raise taxes a little.

But I'm not a fool. Cut the spending first, then we can talk about raising taxes.
 
2012-11-28 10:57:48 AM

orbister: Good heavens. The number of people declaring income of more than £1m per annum fell from 16,000 to 6,000 in the year the economy collapsed and has since climbed back to 10,000. How remarkable. Clearly it's because of aliens taxes.


How can you get the facts wrong from something only 3 years ago? Are you just that young?
 
2012-11-28 11:03:27 AM
Scarry how many leftards here have wet dreams of putting up an Iron Curtain around the US.
 
2012-11-28 11:08:27 AM

Arkanaut: Dadoody: There is no real reason ANYONE should be forced to pay a 50% tax on anything. That's not taxation - that's outright theft of income. What governments need to do, but will not, is live within their budgets and means.

Stop it. The difference between taxation and theft is that you don't get to elect representatives to the Thieves Guild to tell them how much to steal from you, much less contribute to their elections and try to influence their outcomes. You also don't get to tell those representatives what to do with that money.

Come to think of it, the Thieves Guild should really be more transparent.


The dudes who robbed my house didn't pave my street last summer, or replace the aging water line on my block, or build the school where I bring my daughter to get an education, or patrol the national forest where I go to camp, and then save my sorry ass if I were to shanghai myself in the backcountry.

Yeah dude, just like theives
 
2012-11-28 11:09:56 AM

generallyso: I believe the expression is, good riddance to bad rubbish.


Now take away their citizenship.
 
2012-11-28 11:16:30 AM

thurstonxhowell: onyxruby: As for not being fair, how can something that affects everyone proportionally be anything other than fair?

Look it up. Google "marginal utility" or "progressive taxation". You shouldn't have an opinion on this if you can't answer this question.

You can disagree with the reasoning. That's fine. Just shut the fark up about the issue entirely if you're not going to bother learning anything about it.


Wow, by your logic I can tell anyone talking about the Bill of Rights to shut up and their not allowed an opinion until they have read the Federalist Papers.

/The derp is strong with you.
 
2012-11-28 11:17:26 AM
I am just wondering how long it will take before people realize that raising taxes is not going to fix anything and will actually compound the problems which will led to a collapse or reduction in the social programs. I would say that I will be sitting back laughing at the "free money" crowd when the well dries up, but sadly those of us working will also be made to suffer.
 
2012-11-28 11:19:42 AM

digistil: Generally speaking, those people are the last people to feel the impact of the recession.


Wrong again.
 
2012-11-28 11:21:21 AM
This started a long time ago. Here are just the top twelve of the music business. I think at least 4 of them were Knighted after they left! But don't worry our rich are not smart enough to figure this out! They didn't make their money daddy and mommy gave it to them!

Link
 
2012-11-28 11:25:16 AM
I'm a married, middled-aged guy with three kids, My wife and I both work for the Government and make about 50k a year combined before taxes.

We pay day care for two kids - 1400 a month
We pay after school care for one - 200 a month
We pay full priced meals for the one in school.

After Mortgage, car, utilities, insurance (health, home, and auto) fuel and groceries we live literally paycheck to paycheck. Our bank accounts have less that $20 in them several days before we get paid again.

I've done some research though, check this out...


We can get divorced (on paper), she keeps the kids (we would still live in the same house) She quits her job.

At first, she'll collect unemployment.
She immediately qualifies for $850 a month in food stamps
We save $1600 in day care
Any kids in school get free lunches
Health insurance for her and the kids is now free (I save 480 a month in health insurance premiums)
We get free cell phones
We get welfare (roughly $1000 a month)
We get WIC- free baby food and other staples
All this increases as soon as we have another kid
She can watch kids in our house or clean houses for cash that's not reported as income.
We vote Democrat the rest of our lives.

What is our incentive to continue working?
 
2012-11-28 11:28:02 AM

Cythraul: Dadoody: Taxes need to be reasonable all around.

There is no real reason ANYONE should be forced to pay a 50% tax on anything. That's not taxation - that's outright theft of income. What governments need to do, but will not, is live within their budgets and means.

In the United States, our tax monies go into fruitless military expenditures, high pensions and lavish lifestyles of many people on the government's dole, while our roads, dams, and infrastructure are falling into disrepair.


Wait, just so we're clear, you think that high pensions for government workers is a myth? You obviously don't know what's going on in California. I have a friend who could have retired from his county Librarian job last year with a full pension. He's about 33 years old. Of course, many government workers in California aren't stupid enough to retire young with their pension, no no, they go find another government job and double-up on their pension at age 60. There's even a few instances where someone was legitimately collecting 3 pensions from various California Governments.
 
2012-11-28 11:36:32 AM

Sid_the_sadist: What is our incentive to continue working?


You tell us, you're the one who is doing it. Perhaps on some level you recognize that there is a time limit on many of those benefits plus it would qualify as fraud, a imprisionable offense (you are clearly proposing remaining a single household with her as a dependent and proposing she conceals her income from taxation).

And if you don't know the problems that it would raise, you should find a gay couple who is pissed off they can't get married and they'll fill you in on all the small and not so small benefits of an official marriage.

Actually, try it and report back next month how pulling down all those benefits is going for you. Welfare queens were killed by the Gingrich/Clinton overhaul.
 
2012-11-28 11:37:24 AM

onyxruby: thurstonxhowell: onyxruby: As for not being fair, how can something that affects everyone proportionally be anything other than fair?

Look it up. Google "marginal utility" or "progressive taxation". You shouldn't have an opinion on this if you can't answer this question.

You can disagree with the reasoning. That's fine. Just shut the fark up about the issue entirely if you're not going to bother learning anything about it.

Wow, by your logic I can tell anyone talking about the Bill of Rights to shut up and their not allowed an opinion until they have read the Federalist Papers.

/The derp is strong with you.


If demanding an answer that could be gotten within 2 minutes by typing "Federalist Papers" into Google, that sounds about right, yes.
 
2012-11-28 11:38:30 AM

thurstonxhowell: If demanding


I accidentally the word "they're".
 
2012-11-28 11:39:33 AM

onyxruby: Flat tax 20 regardless of income source. No penalty for success, fair for everyone. Get rid of all the corporate tax loopholes for sending jobs overseas etc.


*sigh* Go look up the words regressive tax, go on we will wait.


/or don't and remain ignorant.
 
2012-11-28 11:41:39 AM

MarkEC: Taxes should be viewed as a means of raising revenue for the government. When you raise taxes and revenue falls, you are doing it wrong! Why is that such a hard lesson to learn?


Historically raising taxes rarely never caused revenue to fall, on the other hand lowering taxes has always caused used revenue to fall. Why is that such a hard lesson to learn?
 
2012-11-28 11:42:08 AM

Sid_the_sadist: I'm a married, middled-aged guy with three kids, My wife and I both work for the Government and make about 50k a year combined before taxes.

We pay day care for two kids - 1400 a month
We pay after school care for one - 200 a month
We pay full priced meals for the one in school.

After Mortgage, car, utilities, insurance (health, home, and auto) fuel and groceries we live literally paycheck to paycheck. Our bank accounts have less that $20 in them several days before we get paid again.

I've done some research though, check this out...


We can get divorced (on paper), she keeps the kids (we would still live in the same house) She quits her job.

At first, she'll collect unemployment.
She immediately qualifies for $850 a month in food stamps
We save $1600 in day care
Any kids in school get free lunches
Health insurance for her and the kids is now free (I save 480 a month in health insurance premiums)
We get free cell phones
We get welfare (roughly $1000 a month)
We get WIC- free baby food and other staples
All this increases as soon as we have another kid
She can watch kids in our house or clean houses for cash that's not reported as income.
We vote Democrat the rest of our lives.

What is our incentive to continue working?


Pride? Responsibility? Self respect?

Yeah, go wait in line for hours at a social
services office, get treated like a subhuman by some automaton social worker. Fill out the intrusive and mind numbing paperwork, get assigned a caseworker that can investigate your claim at will, and get on that dole! Have fun using food stamps at the grocery store and enjoy the looks and judgmental stares from the clerks and fellow shoppers.
Or here's a good bootstrappy idea....get a farking non government job that pays more....nobody is for ing you to work that low paying job.

/sorry to be dickish...just can't stand the argument that welfare recipients are living the good life.
//my single mom was on welfare with 3 kids while she went to college to become a RN...helped us get out of poverty, but it wasn't a fun time by any means
 
2012-11-28 11:46:30 AM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Zeb Hesselgresser: onyxruby: Flat tax 20 regardless of income source. No penalty for success, fair for everyone. Get rid of all the corporate tax loopholes for sending jobs overseas etc.

No. Regressive, punishes the poor.

Negative Income Tax. It combines a flat tax with a fixed annual subsidy/rebate to fix the regressive problems with the flat tax.

Basically, you tax everyone 30% and cut every household a check for $10,000 a year (or equivalent monthly payments).

It's demonstrably equitable, as it applies the same way to everyone. Thanks to the significant subsidy, you can eliminate traditional welfare (cutting every household an additional $100/person/month worth of discount coupons for food and essentials, which could be redeemed by retailers with the government, would serve to fill any gaps), and the very poor have no disincentive to find work, since additional income doesn't make you ineligible for the subsidy. Nor do high-income earners have any disincentive to make more, since they're never kicked into a higher tax bracket.

It's effectively a guaranteed minimum income system, but it doesn't disrupt markets the way raising the minimum wage does, since wages are effectively unlinked from basic survival. It also has a stabilizing effect during economic downturns, since the working class doesn't have to worry about whether it can meet a basic standard of living after taking a paycut, and so consumer confidence should remain higher, and the economy should recover faster.


Okay, but then why wouldn't we cut all US citizens over the age of 18 and under the age of 67 a 50,000 dollar check, set taxes at 65% of income over 50,000 and end welfare as we know it?

Oh wait, most people would stop working, driving wages up, and massively increasing inflation. Yep this sounds like another dumb dam idea.
 
2012-11-28 11:46:42 AM

Sid_the_sadist: I'm a married, middled-aged guy with three kids, My wife and I both work for the Government and make about 50k a year combined before taxes.

We pay day care for two kids - 1400 a month
We pay after school care for one - 200 a month
We pay full priced meals for the one in school.

After Mortgage, car, utilities, insurance (health, home, and auto) fuel and groceries we live literally paycheck to paycheck. Our bank accounts have less that $20 in them several days before we get paid again.

I've done some research though, check this out...


We can get divorced (on paper), she keeps the kids (we would still live in the same house) She quits her job.

At first, she'll collect unemployment.
She immediately qualifies for $850 a month in food stamps
We save $1600 in day care
Any kids in school get free lunches
Health insurance for her and the kids is now free (I save 480 a month in health insurance premiums)
We get free cell phones
We get welfare (roughly $1000 a month)
We get WIC- free baby food and other staples
All this increases as soon as we have another kid
She can watch kids in our house or clean houses for cash that's not reported as income.
We vote Democrat the rest of our lives.

What is our incentive to continue working?


I dunno, you tell us? You have obviously planned it all out, why didn't you pull the trigger the first minute you did the math? By definition there is something stopping you from doing it, but YOU are the only one that could possibly know.

/I suspect it is because you don't actually believe any of what you typed, but like to dream.
//Or maybe you want to be a helpful, productive member of society in the interest of being a good role model for your 3 kids?
///Or because you would be embarrassed to pull out the food stamps and medicaid card, and pride is most important after all.
//Or because, as was mentioned, some of what you stated is illegal to actually do.
/Or because there is no clear path OUT once you are in, and what do you do when the kids are out of the house and the welfare train stops running?

/Or because there are also retirement and benefit advantages to your wife being employed?
//I could do this all day.
/But I won't.

/So, why DON'T you do it?
 
2012-11-28 11:51:02 AM

thespindrifter: After the election, my wife and I are going partial Galt. We're in California, so our state income tax went up in addition to what's sure to come out of Washington.

My wife quit her job last week. I increased my participation in a tax deferment plan offered by my employer to bring my taxable income as close to $250K as possible. We'll be cutting back a little, but the government is going to getting a whole lot less.


You realize that you pay the same tax rate on that first $250k of taxable income in both scenarios?

At a top marginal rate of 35%, you are depriving yourself of nearly 2 times the income you are depriving the government of, in order to keep from paying an extra 5% on your income above $250k.

There's also no reason to assume $250k is any kind of magic number. $70k, $200k, $250k and $1 million have all been proposed as the cutoff for tax cut expiration.

And it won't help you at all if all the tax cuts expire, which is another likely scenario.

You might want to consult a financial expert.
 
2012-11-28 11:52:21 AM

fickenchucker:

We can get divorced (on paper), she keeps the kids (we would still live in the same house) She quits her job.

At first, she'll collect unemployment.
She immediately qualifies for $850 a month in food stamps
We save $1600 in day care
Any kids in school get free lunches
Health insurance for her and the kids is now free (I save 480 a month in health insurance premiums)
We get free cell phones
We get welfare (roughly $1000 a month)
We get WIC- free baby food and other staples
All this increases as soon as we have another kid
She can watch kids in our house or clean houses for cash that's not reported as income.
We vote Democrat the rest of our lives.

What is our incentive to continue working?


Self respect? A sense of duty to country? A desire to not be one of them?
 
2012-11-28 11:52:48 AM

onyxruby: How can have everyone pay the same rate not be fair?


For the reasons listed in the text you quoted. Did you actually read what I wrote, or just hit the comment button?

onyxruby: That's like saying we should have different speed limits based on income.


No, it's nothing at all like that.

onyxruby: Simplifying the tax code would save the economy Billions of dollars a year in accounting costs alone.


It certainly would. I'm not against simplifying the tax code, or taxing cap gains at the same rate as income, or eliminating tax incentives for behaviors that hurt our economy. However, you clearly have no concept of what taxing every individual at 20% would do to the bottom 50% of the country. It would be an extremely regressive system, more so than the one we have now. It would eliminate the disposable income of nearly half the country, and would put millions of American below the poverty line that are not there now.

It only sounds fair and simple because you're totally ignorant of the economic complexities involved. The wealthy benefit more from the societal structure than anyone else. Once you reach a certain threshold of wealth, it becomes almost impossible not to become wealthier, and it grows easier and easier to foist business externalities off on the populace, instead of paying for them. A properly implemented progressive tax system balances the tendency of wealth to concentrate, and ensures that everyone has the ability. through hard work and commitment, to amass a reasonable amount of wealth and security, not just a few lucky ones that beat odds on the order of winning the Powerball. Which is what the "American Dream" is supposed to be about in the first place.
 
2012-11-28 11:57:16 AM

Sid_the_sadist: What is our incentive to continue working?


If you are paying $19,200 a year in daycare and only make $50K combined then even without the other things (that I believe you have somewhat inflated in dollars but I don't know what state you live in) then you or your wife should definitely quit one of your jobs. In effect, one of you is only making about $5K a year. That sounds like a waste of your time.

My guess is that you qualify for some help as it stands right now.
 
2012-11-28 12:00:37 PM

ficklefkrfark: Sid_the_sadist:

.......All my stuff.......

Pride? Responsibility? Self respect?

Yeah, go wait in line for hours at a social
services office, get treated like a subhuman by some automaton social worker. Fill out the intrusive and mind numbing paperwork, get assigned a caseworker that can investigate your claim at will, and get on that dole! Have fun using food stamps at the grocery store and enjoy the looks and judgmental stares from the clerks and fellow shoppers.
Or here's a good bootstrappy idea....get a farking non government job that pays more....nobody is for ing you to work that low paying job.

/sorry to be dickish...just can't stand the argument that welfare recipients are living the good life.
//my single mom was on welfare with 3 kids while she went to college ...



That's why.

And don't think getting ugly/judgmental looks is a detractor. I live in rural south Mississippi where the biggest city around here is Wal*Mart and paying for steaks, crab, and lobster with an EBT card is the norm.

I see hundreds of people every day collecting their checks while wearing gold chains that cost more than my monthly salary and driving a brand new Escalade on 24's

My point is, if you could choose between working your ass off and barely scraping by or doing nothing but smoking weed and collecting benefits and live better, what would you do? This is why the system is broken. There are far too many people who lack Pride, Responsibility, and Self Respect.
 
2012-11-28 12:03:02 PM

Cythraul: This is why we should just raise an army of the people, arrest them, and take what they have. Maybe even find a final solution for these pests later on.


Bacon Hitler approves:

stokereport.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-11-28 12:03:55 PM

swahnhennessy: What's English-English for "Screw you, I got mine"?


"I'm all right, Jack" or perhaps "Sod off, you poxy wankers".
 
2012-11-28 12:10:55 PM

onyxruby: Flat tax 20 regardless of income source. No penalty for success, fair for everyone. Get rid of all the corporate tax loopholes for sending jobs overseas etc.


can someone tell me what a tax cut is to send a job overseas?

/would be better to start with incorporated status where your god damn headquarters is
//apple headquarters in California, everyone knows it
///incorporated in a one room office building in Nevada, so no state corporate taxes paid
 
2012-11-28 12:13:09 PM

Cythraul: This is why we should just raise an army of the people, arrest them, and take what they have. Maybe even find a final solution for these pests later on.


Alot of people forget, or don't know, that even if you confiscate 100% of what the "rich" have, it would only run the government for ~45 days. And you know, we can only do that once.
 
2012-11-28 12:15:52 PM
People who have the perspective the rich will always exist and pay taxes that will be transferred to someone else will find this very hard to understand: the rich do not exist for your benefit. If they feel they are getting a raw deal, they will leave. They are not a static quantity. If you cut them breaks, they will flock to you. If you screw them, they will abscond in droves.

I have to say, the pushback from the Fark Comrades in this thread has been relatively weak.
 
2012-11-28 12:16:40 PM

Sid_the_sadist: I see hundreds of people every day collecting their checks while wearing gold chains that cost more than my monthly salary and driving a brand new Escalade on 24's


I think you mean you saw on person using their EBT wearing a gaudy 10K plated chain driving a 10 year old Escalade from the Credit Clown Car Corral on rent to own 24"s rims.

Unless you work at the continuous convention for stereotype welfare queens.
 
2012-11-28 12:18:01 PM

Sid_the_sadist: ficklefkrfark: Sid_the_sadist:

.......All my stuff.......

Pride? Responsibility? Self respect?

Yeah, go wait in line for hours at a social
services office, get treated like a subhuman by some automaton social worker. Fill out the intrusive and mind numbing paperwork, get assigned a caseworker that can investigate your claim at will, and get on that dole! Have fun using food stamps at the grocery store and enjoy the looks and judgmental stares from the clerks and fellow shoppers.
Or here's a good bootstrappy idea....get a farking non government job that pays more....nobody is for ing you to work that low paying job.

/sorry to be dickish...just can't stand the argument that welfare recipients are living the good life.
//my single mom was on welfare with 3 kids while she went to college ...


That's why.

And don't think getting ugly/judgmental looks is a detractor. I live in rural south Mississippi where the biggest city around here is Wal*Mart and paying for steaks, crab, and lobster with an EBT card is the norm.

I see hundreds of people every day collecting their checks while wearing gold chains that cost more than my monthly salary and driving a brand new Escalade on 24's

My point is, if you could choose between working your ass off and barely scraping by or doing nothing but smoking weed and collecting benefits and live better, what would you do? This is why the system is broken. There are far too many people who lack Pride, Responsibility, and Self Respect.


They say the "Welfare Queen" is a myth. As this poster shows, and I've seen the EXACT SAME THING working retail, it's not. Does that mean we get rid of welfare, foodstamps, etc? No. But god damn do they need overhauled. Theres no reason on November 1 we should see people buying $100 worth of markdown candy with an EBT card while pulling out crisp $50's to buy 3 cartoons of cigarettes. And yes it happens EVERY YEAR.
 
2012-11-28 12:21:22 PM

Zasteva: At a top marginal rate of 35%, you are depriving yourself of nearly 2 times the income you are depriving the government of, in order to keep from paying an extra 5% on your income above $250k.


the question is if the time spent working and the effort required for the job is worth the compensation, after taxes, for doing it. at a certain tax rate, it may be. as a new, higher tax rate, it may not be.
 
2012-11-28 12:25:24 PM

SlothB77: People who have the perspective the rich will always exist and pay taxes that will be transferred to someone else will find this very hard to understand: the rich do not exist for your benefit. If they feel they are getting a raw deal, they will leave.


Taxes are at historical lows for the highest earners.

But, tell me: when the top marginal rate was 90+% why didn't the top earners hop on a plane and flee the country?
 
2012-11-28 12:28:44 PM

fickenchucker: Why can't we agree with the widely-accepted and unbiased charts that if taxation rises too far as compared to neighboring options, revenue goes down, and the trick is to raise taxes just to the level of your competition, not above it?


In this case some of the decline was due to the economy in general, but some was undoubtedly due to the options the wealthier have, such as claiming residency in a different country?


Conversely, if taxation is too low, revenues fall. I'm not talking about a simplistic Laffer Curve, so don't knock it down. I'm saying people will tend to work to improve their lives, but if there is an easy out to reduce their tax burden they will take it. How many of you liberals and moderates don't take any deductions on your personal taxes?

I've gotten to the point I hate dogma from both sides. England went too far with their top rate as compared to much of their competition. We may be a couple of points too low as compared to our competition. We need to cut spending AND raise taxes a little.

But I'm not a fool. Cut the spending first, then we can talk about raising taxes.


Truer words never written.
 
2012-11-28 12:29:34 PM

eraser8: SlothB77: People who have the perspective the rich will always exist and pay taxes that will be transferred to someone else will find this very hard to understand: the rich do not exist for your benefit. If they feel they are getting a raw deal, they will leave.

Taxes are at historical lows for the highest earners.

But, tell me: when the top marginal rate was 90+% why didn't the top earners hop on a plane and flee the country?


Because there were enough god damn deductions to drop the effective rate to next to nothing. The marginal rate means dick when you actually end up paying nothing. Which is why we need a complete wipe and start over of the tax code. From scratch. Keep your 6 rates. One deduction for the number of people in the household and that's it.
 
2012-11-28 12:30:49 PM

Sid_the_sadist: I'm a married, middled-aged guy with three kids, My wife and I both work for the Government and make about 50k a year combined before taxes.

We pay day care for two kids - 1400 a month
We pay after school care for one - 200 a month
We pay full priced meals for the one in school.

After Mortgage, car, utilities, insurance (health, home, and auto) fuel and groceries we live literally paycheck to paycheck. Our bank accounts have less that $20 in them several days before we get paid again.

I've done some research though, check this out...


We can get divorced (on paper), she keeps the kids (we would still live in the same house) She quits her job.

At first, she'll collect unemployment.
She immediately qualifies for $850 a month in food stamps
We save $1600 in day care
Any kids in school get free lunches
Health insurance for her and the kids is now free (I save 480 a month in health insurance premiums)
We get free cell phones
We get welfare (roughly $1000 a month)
We get WIC- free baby food and other staples
All this increases as soon as we have another kid
She can watch kids in our house or clean houses for cash that's not reported as income.
We vote Democrat the rest of our lives.

What is our incentive to continue working?


Again, truer words...
 
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