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(Slate)   Herbal supplements like ephedra, birthwort, glucosamine, marijuana, and echinacea are unregulated, overhyped, and potentially deadly. And they don't really work either   (slate.com) divider line 287
    More: Obvious, herbalism, Education Act, Baylor College of Medicine, fish oils, alternative medicines, Stony Brook University, natural products, marijuana  
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8086 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2012 at 1:19 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-28 02:00:12 AM  

GarretSidzaka: my condolences


light up a doobie for me would you? Just put it on the tombstone. There's a little hole on the top for it.

/The casket is actually quite comfy. I've got a computer and TV and everything down here.
//Getting rid of the poo is a bit complicated but I do manage.
 
2012-11-28 02:01:35 AM  
Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.
 
2012-11-28 02:01:54 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.


Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug
 
2012-11-28 02:02:40 AM  

ladyfortuna: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


your perception is probably not objective.
 
2012-11-28 02:02:58 AM  
img254.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-28 02:06:14 AM  

ladyfortuna: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


That's the problem with anecdotal evidence. For every story like yours there are untold stories where nothing happened to benefit someone taking the same dose with a similar problems. You end up with confirmation bias skewing the results. You could have been taking sugar pills and had the same result.

That's why controlled studies are important -- to filter out bias and coincidence.

How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?
 
2012-11-28 02:06:30 AM  

TheHappyCanadian: Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.


ECA is like magic, but you can easily drop the A, and drop all the fat, and your stomach will thank you.
 
2012-11-28 02:06:54 AM  

TheHappyCanadian: Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.


Isn't a month usually the time it takes for a meniscus tear to heal on it's own?
 
2012-11-28 02:09:15 AM  

lohphat: How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?


It doesn't?

shiat...
 
2012-11-28 02:09:46 AM  

ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that


Eat To Live Basically it's a vegan diet. It's cheap and easy. The breathless and overenthusiastic writing is a bit much, but it works. I follow about 75% of it, lost a little over 12 pounds in almost 5 weeks, and I'm never hungry. Really. Never. I'm full all the time. Also, my total cholesterol is down a bit over 40 points, and my blood pressure is now 107 over 78.
 
2012-11-28 02:10:36 AM  
Bullshiat glucosamine doesn't work. It was the only thing that helped me recover from bursitis in both knees at the same time. Physical therapy, large doses of NSAIDS, opiates, etc. Not a goddamned thing did more than dull the agony. It made it so I could walk without a cane but that was all. I started taking glucosamine and it made enough of an improvement that after 4 years of barely being able to walk the other therapies were able to finally start working.

Today I'm limited only in my ability to run. A quarter mile is all the knees can handle but I can walk 10 miles or ride a bike halfway to forever.
 
2012-11-28 02:11:22 AM  

lohphat: How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?


A lot of people. Until some guy took like 1,500 radithor tablets to enhance his virility and his upper and lower jaw fell off.

/someone decided maybe it's not good to ingest after that.
 
2012-11-28 02:11:36 AM  
It's just a weed, man!
 
2012-11-28 02:13:29 AM  

ladyfortuna: wiredmaverick: Glucosamine was recently upgraded to an "A" rating for osteoarthritis of the knee by Natural Standard (generally considered to be the most important natural health products resource among health care professionals).

They consider an "A" to be:

Statistically significant evidence of benefit from >2 properly randomized trials (RCTs), OR evidence from one properly conducted RCT AND one properly conducted meta-analysis, OR evidence from multiple RCTs with a clear majority of the properly conducted trials showing statistically significant evidence of benefit AND with supporting evidence in basic science, animal studies, or theory.

My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...


Well for an adult human it's supposed to take several weeks to a month of taking it 3x daily to start feeling an effect, so I kind of doubt it. But who knows really. Maybe dogs have different cartilage building mechanisms than we do.

Anyway my point was just that glucosamine with chondroitin is currently considered to be one of the safest, most effective and most cost effective therapies for mild-moderate osteoarthritis of the knee. Unlike the majority of natural health products, this one seems to work.

/pharmacist
 
2012-11-28 02:15:32 AM  
ephedera is completely banned as an over the counter supplement because it works so good people die, ya farking idiot. it increases heart rate, constricts blood vessels, and increases metabolism. it's part of why people pay money for meth.
 
2012-11-28 02:15:43 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: Bullshiat glucosamine doesn't work. It was the only thing that helped me recover from bursitis in both knees at the same time. Physical therapy, large doses of NSAIDS, opiates, etc. Not a goddamned thing did more than dull the agony. It made it so I could walk without a cane but that was all. I started taking glucosamine and it made enough of an improvement that after 4 years of barely being able to walk the other therapies were able to finally start working.

Today I'm limited only in my ability to run. A quarter mile is all the knees can handle but I can walk 10 miles or ride a bike halfway to forever.


Heh, I'm sure your physical therapist appreciates that. "I worked with this guy for four years, and finally got him walking, and he credits the snake oil pill he started taking two weeks ago."

Just think about what you're saying. If glucosamine significantly improved bursitis, why wouldn't a doctor recomend that instead of physical therapy? Conspiracy?
 
2012-11-28 02:15:52 AM  

jaytkay: Ha! Silly gullible retards! Your "remedies" do not work.

This is why I depend on homeopathy!


Homeopathy is an affront to nature and an abomination in the eyes of God. Unless it's girl-on-girl homeopathy. That shiat's hot.
 
2012-11-28 02:15:56 AM  
Bah. I'll stick with my old fashioned Nuka-Colas and stimpaks.
 
2012-11-28 02:16:01 AM  
bountyhunterinc.com
 
2012-11-28 02:16:21 AM  
Well, no.

Either they don't work--and hence are not dangerous, because they do nothing; or they DO work, and thus are dangerous because their effects have not been thoroughly tested and studied under controlled conditions.

You can't have it both ways.

Myself, I'm guessing that in fact most of these herbal supplements do work, and in fact the chemicals in them work quite well; however, because they have not been tested adequately subject to rigorous scientific testing, the full range of effects (both desired and so-called "side" effects) are not completely known, nor are the drug interactions.

As to why they have not been tested, again, my own suspicion is that nobody's hands are clean. The drug companies really have no reason NOT to test them, since they'd love to have another market to make $$$$!!! from; however, the herbal remedy market has a lot to lose by having their herbs subjected to rigorous testing, and a lot more to lose by having their squeaky-clean image tarnished by having a Merck label slapped on the side; plus, they make all their buckage by proclaiming that their cures are made because their "herbs" and "minerals" are not merely a bunch of chemical compounds but are "natural" and "organic" and would lose a lot of devotees if scientists and doctors came in and proved that the active ingredient in that wholesome St. John's Wort is really chemically identical to sertraline or whatever it is that the holistic herbalist is telling you it isn't.

OTOH, a lot of mainstream doctors get a lot of mileage out of pretending that they're above the naturopathic holistic cures and what you REALLY need is a pill and not a pile of leaves; and why should they waste their time testing a bunch of plants when we all know that drinking a cup of Grandma's chicken soup does nothing more for the flu than a zinc lozenge (nothing) except make you feel warm. Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus. Anyhoo, the point of all this is that NOBODY wants to do the hard thing, double-blind test these various herbal remedies, find out what's in them that either works or doesn't, regulate the ones that work and ignore the ones that don't; and everyone is making money off not doing it. One way or another.
 
2012-11-28 02:24:51 AM  
My shoulder has been hurting really bad. Like I couldn't even move it. No pills I took really helped.

So I masturbated furiously for like the past three days and the pain is gone.

Who knew.
 
2012-11-28 02:27:59 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.


Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.
 
2012-11-28 02:30:06 AM  
Don't waste your time with herbal supplements.
Use body building supplements. They are constantly being reformulated to get as close to speed as legally possible. Most of them don't even attempt to make a claim that their supplement is anywhere near natural. Most of them carry the warning "These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat or prevent any disease."

I lost 10kgs in 8 weeks just from abusing using a pre-workout supplement until the main active ingredient was pretty universally banned for human consumption recently.

I started studying a degree in Naturopathy, but gave up because there was so much bullshiat in it. There is virtually no scientific proof backing alot of the claims made for different herbal medicinces. If something works, but they can't explain how, I'm ok with that. When something works and you pull some bullshiat reason out of your ass to explain
how it works, that really gives me the shiats.

Don't get me started on using the Doctrine of Signatures "Hey look, that plant look like a vagina, so it must be good for ailments of the vagina, quick, somebody, write that into the materia medica and call it a fact".
 
2012-11-28 02:39:00 AM  
www.ihatepeacocks.com
RIP Belladonna
 
2012-11-28 02:40:03 AM  

fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.


Wut? It is still a fast mover in any pharmacy.
 
2012-11-28 02:40:56 AM  

ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]


So much fail in 2 lines of text.
 
2012-11-28 02:45:52 AM  

1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link


Seems like a thoughtful list, and I'm generally skeptical of a lot of easy answers to medical problems. But I swear that Vitex (chasteberry, low on that chart) got me pregnant. Well, that and a penis. Could have been a coincidence, but I doubt it.
 
2012-11-28 03:02:47 AM  

fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.


I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.
 
2012-11-28 03:04:13 AM  
You sly dog, you.
 
2012-11-28 03:07:19 AM  

ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.
 
2012-11-28 03:07:25 AM  

Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.


Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.
 
2012-11-28 03:10:38 AM  

Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.


It makes your pee extremely orange. That's something....
 
2012-11-28 03:11:11 AM  
Hit piece. Now go back to your genetically modified wheat, high fructose corn syrup, fluoridated water. And of course pharmaceuticals.
 
2012-11-28 03:14:49 AM  

Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.


I suspect historical sufferers of scurvy might take umbrage with your assessment.
 
2012-11-28 03:17:18 AM  

gweilo8888: ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.


The dog will not go on long hikes when he's not been getting his meds. When he has, he'll follow the longer path voluntarily instead of sitting there refusing to follow. Talking a difference between 1 mile (short hike) to around 2-2.5 miles, so about twice as far. How is that MY imagination?

/whatever
 
2012-11-28 03:22:48 AM  

SundaesChild: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.


Yeeeees, because the amount of acne you get to begin with doesn't change between 16 and 41 on its own or anything.

Tobin_Lam: fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.

I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.


Medical personnel don't like using the phrase "a cold" to describe... a cold, for some reason. There's not really a general-use word for the general category of mild respiratory diseases with similarly mild fever, so they often use "flu" as a colloquial fill-in. In common use, the vast majority of the time that someone has 'the flu' they don't literally have the influenza virus either.

Also, if you're seriously going to the ER/Urgent Care for a goddamned cold, you're a terrible person and for once I mean that entirely seriously instead of with the usual internet hyperbolic tone. People like you are why folks with actual for real medical problems sometimes can't get help or can't afford it.
 
2012-11-28 03:29:57 AM  
Anyone who says marijuana doesnt work clearly was using the placebo.
 
2012-11-28 03:31:49 AM  

Tobin_Lam: bacterial flu.


myheadisfulloffark.jpg

You either had flu (a virus) or a chest infection (bacterial). If you're coughing up green gunge it's most commonly a bacterial infection, if your joints hurt and shiat it's probably flu.

/Not a doctor.
//Does not constitute medical advice.
 
2012-11-28 03:33:08 AM  

fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?


You win one internet- well played.
 
2012-11-28 03:34:41 AM  
Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.
 
2012-11-28 03:35:20 AM  
I take milk thistle extract (silymarin) to make up for years of drinking in an earlier life. It has quite a number of big name studies to its credit showing a protective effect for the liver - for alcohol damage, diabetes, chemotherapy damage, mushroom poisoning, and other toxins that damage the liver. It is also suspected to have strong general antioxidant activity, and shown to have mild anti-inflammatory activity. In any case, it's cheap, been used for thousands of years, unlike fad herbals, and the mayo clinic notes no significant toxicity in therapeutic doses taken for many years.

So blow me. 

/if you drink, I recommend it
 
2012-11-28 03:38:20 AM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.

I suspect historical sufferers of scurvy might take umbrage with your assessment.


You're assuming the majority of people in the West are getting the RDA of Vitamin C, every day. Truth is, very few are.

Most people are, at least in terms of vit C, potassium and a whole load of other vitamins and minerals, quite malnourished. Ergo, if they're coming down with a cold, taking a load of vitamin C isn't going to do much to stop the cold itself, but will counteract the normal malnourishment they've got, and so will make them feel better, and help their body fight the infection (which it wouldn't actually need help fighting if they weren't so fricking scurvy-ridden).

If you think this is not true, I can tell you of a recent local health survey, where tests showed that almost 40% of under-10's in the area had mild vit. C malnourishment, and around 1% were technically suffering from scurvy.
Turns out a quarter-pounder with cheese don't got much vitamin C.
 
2012-11-28 03:46:21 AM  

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

I'm confused... To what are referring?
 
2012-11-28 03:46:23 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: it's cheap, been used for thousands of years


And thats it in a nutshell- how is there profit in that ? You can grow that plant, yourself, and use it.
I am not saying all of big Pharma is evil, I am sure that there are quite a few involved that really do mean well,
but big Pharma is evil, overall. Marijuana is not some cancer busting drug, regardless of who says that it is. It is however, the best pain reliever out there for arthritis and chronic pain, and as an oil it has proven to help many folks muscular pain, when properly massaged into the skin.
At least, in my experience of about 25 years, give or take 2. You Mileage May Vary
And many plants also help, for other things. Big Pharma came to be from making aspirin, from the bark of a tree. They just made it synthetic. Science is a wonderful thing- it allows us to expand our future and remember how we got here in the fist place.
Those are my thoughts anyhow.
 
2012-11-28 03:50:08 AM  

Wizard Drongo: Most people are, at least in terms of vit C, potassium and a whole load of other vitamins and minerals, quite malnourished


Vitamin D also, since kids spend more time indoors these days. I supplement with D because I don't consume dairy, and don't get 15 minutes of direct sunlight per day - and also because D is crucially important for a brazillian different processes in the body. It's not just nice or "helpful" to have, it's vitally important, for everything from metabolic function to thinking clearly.
 
2012-11-28 03:51:14 AM  

Jim_Callahan: SundaesChild: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.

Yeeeees, because the amount of acne you get to begin with doesn't change between 16 and 41 on its own or anything.

Tobin_Lam: fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.

I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.

Medical personnel don't like using the phrase "a cold" to describe... a cold, for some reason. There's not really a general-use word for the general category of mild respiratory diseases with similarly mild fever, so they often use "flu" as a colloquial fill-in. In common use, the vast majority of the time that someone has 'the flu' they don't literally have the influenza virus either.

Also, if you're seriously going to the ER/Urgent Care for a goddamned cold, you're a terrible person and for once I mean that entirely seriously instead of with the usual internet hyperbolic tone. People like you are why folks with actual for real medical problems sometimes can't get help or can't afford it.


It was a little more complicated than that. "Bacterial Flu" was only part of my problem.
 
2012-11-28 03:52:18 AM  
Since people like these herbal remedies, it makes perfect sense to make these things illegal. After all, they rishhsky and dannnngeroushhh and we need to profound wisdom of our local prescription writer to give us something that costs a couple of hundred dollars for 15-30 doses.
 
2012-11-28 03:52:39 AM  
i.usatoday.net

Smilin' Bob and Enzyte's "Natural Male Enhancement".... wow, they did that scam on a massive scale. And strangely enough, they went for the "creepy" Smilin' Bob. Why did "creepy" work here at all?? Think about that!!

Enzyte used pharmaceutical packaging and a fake pharmaceutical name- "Suffragium asotas". Suffragium is Latin for "to vote", "asotas" is not a word, but guessing it to be a made-up form of a word of close spelling, it might translate as "refuge for the dissipated".

It's a collection of 11 supplements, none of which are new or unique. Ginkgo biloba, niacin, etc. Some have some basis in science, some are disproven. Of course none have ever suggested to enlarge a guy's dick by any form of science. They're purported to improve erection quality and/or sex drive.

www.dietresearch.com

Lipozene one was epic, too. Packaged like a pharmaceutical, commercial is "intense"... "Be advised, Lipozene is ONLY for people who have to lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of weight". WTF did that mean, actually? Are you saying it's too dangerous for minor weight loss?? One commercial said "It's far too powerful- and far too expensive- for casual weight loss."

Had to look this one up. Lipozene is caffeine, B6 & B12 vitamins, and konjac fiber (glucomannan). Also they did one called "Proplene" which was just konjac fiber. Which they've hugely inflated in price, and really just want your credit card number to scam with recurring bills you can't cancel.
 
2012-11-28 03:57:20 AM  
Oznog:
true, many have sold fake cures / herbal remedies for, like, ever. But not all of it is crap.Most of it is. But not all.
 
2012-11-28 03:59:19 AM  

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


You're not supposed to smoke those energy crystals.
 
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