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(Slate)   Herbal supplements like ephedra, birthwort, glucosamine, marijuana, and echinacea are unregulated, overhyped, and potentially deadly. And they don't really work either   (slate.com) divider line 287
    More: Obvious, herbalism, Education Act, Baylor College of Medicine, fish oils, alternative medicines, Stony Brook University, natural products, marijuana  
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8082 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2012 at 1:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-27 09:44:11 PM
At least one of those herbs works for me, submitter.

/you naughty boy
 
2012-11-27 10:28:39 PM
Glucosamine is not entirely useless.

Ephedra works for weight loss and on asthma, but yeah, it's dangerous.
 
2012-11-27 10:43:12 PM
In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?
 
2012-11-27 10:56:40 PM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


Bingo

/ask your doctor wholly owned prescription dispenser
 
2012-11-28 12:49:39 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


That's one of the reason. Another reason is subsidies. The reason sugar was substituted by HFCS is the corn subsidy industry and sugar tariffs. There's always more than one reason, but money is the major one.
 
2012-11-28 01:21:24 AM
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
 
2012-11-28 01:21:40 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-28 01:22:17 AM
I died from marijuana years ago.

I'm still dead today.
 
2012-11-28 01:22:48 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


Idiot
 
2012-11-28 01:23:21 AM
If marijuana doesn't work, then all the BS pills made for "pain relief" don't work either. Subby be trollin.
 
2012-11-28 01:24:10 AM
I have a right to expensive pee!
 
2012-11-28 01:24:17 AM
Ha! Silly gullible retards! Your "remedies" do not work.

This is why I depend on homeopathy!
 
2012-11-28 01:24:20 AM
One of these things is not like the other.

And that thing works like a hot damn.
 
2012-11-28 01:25:57 AM

TheJoe03: If marijuana doesn't work, then all the BS pills made for "pain relief" don't work either. Subby be trollin.


You know how I know you've never taken Codeine and Flexeril?
 
2012-11-28 01:26:28 AM
Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies
 
2012-11-28 01:27:35 AM

Notabunny: TheJoe03: If marijuana doesn't work, then all the BS pills made for "pain relief" don't work either. Subby be trollin.

You know how I know you've never taken Codeine and Flexeril?


Gah. Never talk to me about Codeine. Never again.

/the spins
//oh god, the spins
 
2012-11-28 01:28:27 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?

Idiot


It's like no one ever heard of Big Nutra, right? Where can I get on a piece of the " we don't have to prove it works, nor do we have to verify dosages, but just trust that this root will rewangify you"
 
2012-11-28 01:30:04 AM

ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies


He sounds fat.
 
2012-11-28 01:33:08 AM
liveactionnews.org

/I see what you did there
 
2012-11-28 01:34:11 AM

Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: Glucosamine is not entirely useless.

Ephedra works for weight loss and on asthma, but yeah, it's dangerous.


FYI, in 2010 there was a study that is making people back off on the effectiveness of glucosamine. Like a 'Maybe this isn't as effective as we thought.'

For six months, he and his colleagues gave 250 adults with chronic lower back pain and degenerative osteoarthritis either 2,500 mg daily of glucosamine sulfate or a placebo. At the six-month and one-year marks, there weren't any significant differences among patients in the two groups. Both groups did seem to be helped by the placebo effect, which is common in pain patients, in which people apparently feel better simply because they are receiving treatment.
 
2012-11-28 01:35:19 AM

Notabunny: You know how I know you've never taken Codeine


I did as a wayward Texan teen in the mid 00s.

i264.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-28 01:35:35 AM
Your face is illegal.
 
2012-11-28 01:38:14 AM

Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: Glucosamine is not entirely useless.


There is only ONE clinical study where glucosamine/chondroitin was shown to have any affect on joint health and the statistical benefits were within the margin of error. The snake oil industry jumped on it like Elmo on a 16 year old.

Otherwise it's marketing hype + placebo effect.
 
2012-11-28 01:40:09 AM
Belladonna is still cool, though, right?
 
2012-11-28 01:40:44 AM

GriffXX: Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: Glucosamine is not entirely useless.

Ephedra works for weight loss and on asthma, but yeah, it's dangerous.

FYI, in 2010 there was a study that is making people back off on the effectiveness of glucosamine. Like a 'Maybe this isn't as effective as we thought.'

For six months, he and his colleagues gave 250 adults with chronic lower back pain and degenerative osteoarthritis either 2,500 mg daily of glucosamine sulfate or a placebo. At the six-month and one-year marks, there weren't any significant differences among patients in the two groups. Both groups did seem to be helped by the placebo effect, which is common in pain patients, in which people apparently feel better simply because they are receiving treatment.


I hadn't been to the gym in ten days (Thanksgiving and whatnot) and my back was hurting.

I went to the gym and did stretches, lat push downs and pull downs, and ab work, among other things. My back felt pretty good afterwards, and a soak in the spa couldn't have hurt.

I probably need a new bed, but my back is feeling better.
 
2012-11-28 01:42:08 AM
Glucosamine: not herbal. Comes from shell fish.
 
2012-11-28 01:42:45 AM
any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.
 
2012-11-28 01:43:20 AM

fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?


The pornstar?
 
2012-11-28 01:43:42 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


Except, the major pharmaceutical companies make a killing off selling herbal supplements. They play both sides of the fence, and do it effectively.
 
2012-11-28 01:43:43 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?

Idiot


I can't hear you; I've got a banana in my ear.
 
2012-11-28 01:45:45 AM
It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link
 
2012-11-28 01:46:16 AM

Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.


It makes a great tiger repellant
 
2012-11-28 01:47:58 AM

TheJoe03: fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?

The pornstar?


Entertaining, yes. Safe, no.
 
2012-11-28 01:48:05 AM

Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.


Just type "echinacea useless" into the Google window. Or take my word for it. It's farking useless. Tell her to throw that shiat away and leave you alone.
 
2012-11-28 01:48:48 AM
Had to look up "birthwort" to see what the holy fark THAT might be.

Ugh...
 
2012-11-28 01:49:10 AM

LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.


At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that
 
2012-11-28 01:49:25 AM

Mega Steve: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It makes a great tiger repellant


I hear tiny bells and pepper spray make a good bear repellant.
 
2012-11-28 01:50:57 AM

fluffy2097: I died from marijuana years ago.

I'm still dead today.


my condolences
 
2012-11-28 01:51:42 AM

Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.


It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]
 
2012-11-28 01:51:58 AM

lohphat: The snake oil industry jumped on it like Elmo on a 16 year old.


That is a new farkism now.
 
2012-11-28 01:53:24 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link


I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.
 
2012-11-28 01:53:54 AM
echinacea?

http://jupiter.plymouth.edu/~cplamprey/CSDI1200/echidna.jpg
 
2012-11-28 01:54:56 AM
Glucosamine was recently upgraded to an "A" rating for osteoarthritis of the knee by Natural Standard (generally considered to be the most important natural health products resource among health care professionals).

They consider an "A" to be:

Statistically significant evidence of benefit from >2 properly randomized trials (RCTs), OR evidence from one properly conducted RCT AND one properly conducted meta-analysis, OR evidence from multiple RCTs with a clear majority of the properly conducted trials showing statistically significant evidence of benefit AND with supporting evidence in basic science, animal studies, or theory.
 
2012-11-28 01:55:44 AM
echinacea?
jupiter.plymouth.edu
 
2012-11-28 01:57:07 AM
I used to smoke pot. But I had to stop. The handles kept poking me in the eyes.
 
2012-11-28 01:57:10 AM

wiredmaverick: Glucosamine was recently upgraded to an "A" rating for osteoarthritis of the knee by Natural Standard (generally considered to be the most important natural health products resource among health care professionals).

They consider an "A" to be:

Statistically significant evidence of benefit from >2 properly randomized trials (RCTs), OR evidence from one properly conducted RCT AND one properly conducted meta-analysis, OR evidence from multiple RCTs with a clear majority of the properly conducted trials showing statistically significant evidence of benefit AND with supporting evidence in basic science, animal studies, or theory.


My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...
 
2012-11-28 01:58:56 AM

Fano: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?

Idiot

It's like no one ever heard of Big Nutra, right? Where can I get on a piece of the " we don't have to prove it works, nor do we have to verify dosages, but just trust that this root will rewangify you"


THIS

Imply that your nutraceutical does something, but never state it outright.Foreign-sounding words and magic ingredients are crack to the yoga-loving pseudo-hippie chicks at Sprouts and Whole Foods. If they want to take something home and pretend it's good for them, it should be me.
 
2012-11-28 01:59:13 AM

fluffy2097: I died from marijuana years ago.

I'm still dead today.


Always go to a friend's funeral or they won't go to yours.
 
2012-11-28 01:59:29 AM
Thanks be to Orrin Hatch!!!

/"business" in Mormon-speak = MLM via unregulated supplements
 
2012-11-28 02:00:06 AM

ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...


there's your placebo effect.
 
2012-11-28 02:00:12 AM

GarretSidzaka: my condolences


light up a doobie for me would you? Just put it on the tombstone. There's a little hole on the top for it.

/The casket is actually quite comfy. I've got a computer and TV and everything down here.
//Getting rid of the poo is a bit complicated but I do manage.
 
2012-11-28 02:01:35 AM
Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.
 
2012-11-28 02:01:54 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.


Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug
 
2012-11-28 02:02:40 AM

ladyfortuna: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


your perception is probably not objective.
 
2012-11-28 02:02:58 AM
img254.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-28 02:06:14 AM

ladyfortuna: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


That's the problem with anecdotal evidence. For every story like yours there are untold stories where nothing happened to benefit someone taking the same dose with a similar problems. You end up with confirmation bias skewing the results. You could have been taking sugar pills and had the same result.

That's why controlled studies are important -- to filter out bias and coincidence.

How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?
 
2012-11-28 02:06:30 AM

TheHappyCanadian: Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.


ECA is like magic, but you can easily drop the A, and drop all the fat, and your stomach will thank you.
 
2012-11-28 02:06:54 AM

TheHappyCanadian: Ephedrine works like a hot damn, even after caffeine stopped affecting me. also great for ECA stacking

glucosamine saved me from needing arthroscopic surgery on my knee after tearing my meniscus, problem is that it takes over a month to start working, but after it did I didn't scream every time I stood up.

/csb
//off to gym in 26 minutes, etc.


Isn't a month usually the time it takes for a meniscus tear to heal on it's own?
 
2012-11-28 02:09:15 AM

lohphat: How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?


It doesn't?

shiat...
 
2012-11-28 02:09:46 AM

ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that


Eat To Live Basically it's a vegan diet. It's cheap and easy. The breathless and overenthusiastic writing is a bit much, but it works. I follow about 75% of it, lost a little over 12 pounds in almost 5 weeks, and I'm never hungry. Really. Never. I'm full all the time. Also, my total cholesterol is down a bit over 40 points, and my blood pressure is now 107 over 78.
 
2012-11-28 02:10:36 AM
Bullshiat glucosamine doesn't work. It was the only thing that helped me recover from bursitis in both knees at the same time. Physical therapy, large doses of NSAIDS, opiates, etc. Not a goddamned thing did more than dull the agony. It made it so I could walk without a cane but that was all. I started taking glucosamine and it made enough of an improvement that after 4 years of barely being able to walk the other therapies were able to finally start working.

Today I'm limited only in my ability to run. A quarter mile is all the knees can handle but I can walk 10 miles or ride a bike halfway to forever.
 
2012-11-28 02:11:22 AM

lohphat: How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?


A lot of people. Until some guy took like 1,500 radithor tablets to enhance his virility and his upper and lower jaw fell off.

/someone decided maybe it's not good to ingest after that.
 
2012-11-28 02:11:36 AM
It's just a weed, man!
 
2012-11-28 02:13:29 AM

ladyfortuna: wiredmaverick: Glucosamine was recently upgraded to an "A" rating for osteoarthritis of the knee by Natural Standard (generally considered to be the most important natural health products resource among health care professionals).

They consider an "A" to be:

Statistically significant evidence of benefit from >2 properly randomized trials (RCTs), OR evidence from one properly conducted RCT AND one properly conducted meta-analysis, OR evidence from multiple RCTs with a clear majority of the properly conducted trials showing statistically significant evidence of benefit AND with supporting evidence in basic science, animal studies, or theory.

My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...


Well for an adult human it's supposed to take several weeks to a month of taking it 3x daily to start feeling an effect, so I kind of doubt it. But who knows really. Maybe dogs have different cartilage building mechanisms than we do.

Anyway my point was just that glucosamine with chondroitin is currently considered to be one of the safest, most effective and most cost effective therapies for mild-moderate osteoarthritis of the knee. Unlike the majority of natural health products, this one seems to work.

/pharmacist
 
2012-11-28 02:15:32 AM
ephedera is completely banned as an over the counter supplement because it works so good people die, ya farking idiot. it increases heart rate, constricts blood vessels, and increases metabolism. it's part of why people pay money for meth.
 
2012-11-28 02:15:43 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Bullshiat glucosamine doesn't work. It was the only thing that helped me recover from bursitis in both knees at the same time. Physical therapy, large doses of NSAIDS, opiates, etc. Not a goddamned thing did more than dull the agony. It made it so I could walk without a cane but that was all. I started taking glucosamine and it made enough of an improvement that after 4 years of barely being able to walk the other therapies were able to finally start working.

Today I'm limited only in my ability to run. A quarter mile is all the knees can handle but I can walk 10 miles or ride a bike halfway to forever.


Heh, I'm sure your physical therapist appreciates that. "I worked with this guy for four years, and finally got him walking, and he credits the snake oil pill he started taking two weeks ago."

Just think about what you're saying. If glucosamine significantly improved bursitis, why wouldn't a doctor recomend that instead of physical therapy? Conspiracy?
 
2012-11-28 02:15:52 AM

jaytkay: Ha! Silly gullible retards! Your "remedies" do not work.

This is why I depend on homeopathy!


Homeopathy is an affront to nature and an abomination in the eyes of God. Unless it's girl-on-girl homeopathy. That shiat's hot.
 
2012-11-28 02:15:56 AM
Bah. I'll stick with my old fashioned Nuka-Colas and stimpaks.
 
2012-11-28 02:16:01 AM
bountyhunterinc.com
 
2012-11-28 02:16:21 AM
Well, no.

Either they don't work--and hence are not dangerous, because they do nothing; or they DO work, and thus are dangerous because their effects have not been thoroughly tested and studied under controlled conditions.

You can't have it both ways.

Myself, I'm guessing that in fact most of these herbal supplements do work, and in fact the chemicals in them work quite well; however, because they have not been tested adequately subject to rigorous scientific testing, the full range of effects (both desired and so-called "side" effects) are not completely known, nor are the drug interactions.

As to why they have not been tested, again, my own suspicion is that nobody's hands are clean. The drug companies really have no reason NOT to test them, since they'd love to have another market to make $$$$!!! from; however, the herbal remedy market has a lot to lose by having their herbs subjected to rigorous testing, and a lot more to lose by having their squeaky-clean image tarnished by having a Merck label slapped on the side; plus, they make all their buckage by proclaiming that their cures are made because their "herbs" and "minerals" are not merely a bunch of chemical compounds but are "natural" and "organic" and would lose a lot of devotees if scientists and doctors came in and proved that the active ingredient in that wholesome St. John's Wort is really chemically identical to sertraline or whatever it is that the holistic herbalist is telling you it isn't.

OTOH, a lot of mainstream doctors get a lot of mileage out of pretending that they're above the naturopathic holistic cures and what you REALLY need is a pill and not a pile of leaves; and why should they waste their time testing a bunch of plants when we all know that drinking a cup of Grandma's chicken soup does nothing more for the flu than a zinc lozenge (nothing) except make you feel warm. Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus. Anyhoo, the point of all this is that NOBODY wants to do the hard thing, double-blind test these various herbal remedies, find out what's in them that either works or doesn't, regulate the ones that work and ignore the ones that don't; and everyone is making money off not doing it. One way or another.
 
2012-11-28 02:24:51 AM
My shoulder has been hurting really bad. Like I couldn't even move it. No pills I took really helped.

So I masturbated furiously for like the past three days and the pain is gone.

Who knew.
 
2012-11-28 02:27:59 AM

Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.


Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.
 
2012-11-28 02:30:06 AM
Don't waste your time with herbal supplements.
Use body building supplements. They are constantly being reformulated to get as close to speed as legally possible. Most of them don't even attempt to make a claim that their supplement is anywhere near natural. Most of them carry the warning "These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat or prevent any disease."

I lost 10kgs in 8 weeks just from abusing using a pre-workout supplement until the main active ingredient was pretty universally banned for human consumption recently.

I started studying a degree in Naturopathy, but gave up because there was so much bullshiat in it. There is virtually no scientific proof backing alot of the claims made for different herbal medicinces. If something works, but they can't explain how, I'm ok with that. When something works and you pull some bullshiat reason out of your ass to explain
how it works, that really gives me the shiats.

Don't get me started on using the Doctrine of Signatures "Hey look, that plant look like a vagina, so it must be good for ailments of the vagina, quick, somebody, write that into the materia medica and call it a fact".
 
2012-11-28 02:39:00 AM
www.ihatepeacocks.com
RIP Belladonna
 
2012-11-28 02:40:03 AM

fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.


Wut? It is still a fast mover in any pharmacy.
 
2012-11-28 02:40:56 AM

ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]


So much fail in 2 lines of text.
 
2012-11-28 02:45:52 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link


Seems like a thoughtful list, and I'm generally skeptical of a lot of easy answers to medical problems. But I swear that Vitex (chasteberry, low on that chart) got me pregnant. Well, that and a penis. Could have been a coincidence, but I doubt it.
 
2012-11-28 03:02:47 AM

fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.


I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.
 
2012-11-28 03:04:13 AM
You sly dog, you.
 
2012-11-28 03:07:19 AM

ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug


You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.
 
2012-11-28 03:07:25 AM

Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.


Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.
 
2012-11-28 03:10:38 AM

Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.


It makes your pee extremely orange. That's something....
 
2012-11-28 03:11:11 AM
Hit piece. Now go back to your genetically modified wheat, high fructose corn syrup, fluoridated water. And of course pharmaceuticals.
 
2012-11-28 03:14:49 AM

Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.


I suspect historical sufferers of scurvy might take umbrage with your assessment.
 
2012-11-28 03:17:18 AM

gweilo8888: ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.


The dog will not go on long hikes when he's not been getting his meds. When he has, he'll follow the longer path voluntarily instead of sitting there refusing to follow. Talking a difference between 1 mile (short hike) to around 2-2.5 miles, so about twice as far. How is that MY imagination?

/whatever
 
2012-11-28 03:22:48 AM

SundaesChild: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.


Yeeeees, because the amount of acne you get to begin with doesn't change between 16 and 41 on its own or anything.

Tobin_Lam: fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.

I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.


Medical personnel don't like using the phrase "a cold" to describe... a cold, for some reason. There's not really a general-use word for the general category of mild respiratory diseases with similarly mild fever, so they often use "flu" as a colloquial fill-in. In common use, the vast majority of the time that someone has 'the flu' they don't literally have the influenza virus either.

Also, if you're seriously going to the ER/Urgent Care for a goddamned cold, you're a terrible person and for once I mean that entirely seriously instead of with the usual internet hyperbolic tone. People like you are why folks with actual for real medical problems sometimes can't get help or can't afford it.
 
2012-11-28 03:29:57 AM
Anyone who says marijuana doesnt work clearly was using the placebo.
 
2012-11-28 03:31:49 AM

Tobin_Lam: bacterial flu.


myheadisfulloffark.jpg

You either had flu (a virus) or a chest infection (bacterial). If you're coughing up green gunge it's most commonly a bacterial infection, if your joints hurt and shiat it's probably flu.

/Not a doctor.
//Does not constitute medical advice.
 
2012-11-28 03:33:08 AM

fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?


You win one internet- well played.
 
2012-11-28 03:34:41 AM
Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.
 
2012-11-28 03:35:20 AM
I take milk thistle extract (silymarin) to make up for years of drinking in an earlier life. It has quite a number of big name studies to its credit showing a protective effect for the liver - for alcohol damage, diabetes, chemotherapy damage, mushroom poisoning, and other toxins that damage the liver. It is also suspected to have strong general antioxidant activity, and shown to have mild anti-inflammatory activity. In any case, it's cheap, been used for thousands of years, unlike fad herbals, and the mayo clinic notes no significant toxicity in therapeutic doses taken for many years.

So blow me. 

/if you drink, I recommend it
 
2012-11-28 03:38:20 AM

Pointy Tail of Satan: Tobin_Lam: Ashelth: ktybear: Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.

It works to help zinc uptake by your immune system but it doesn't work when you're sick. You have to take it before you get sick. Same with Vitamin C. It sort of helps but only if you're well. If you are already sick Vitamin C in large doses wrecks your kidneys. [not getting citations cause I'm sick but I do remember these studies ]

So much fail in 2 lines of text.

Yep, I remember the studies that said Vitamin C doesn't really do anything. It won't keep you from getting a cold and it won't make it go away any faster.

I suspect historical sufferers of scurvy might take umbrage with your assessment.


You're assuming the majority of people in the West are getting the RDA of Vitamin C, every day. Truth is, very few are.

Most people are, at least in terms of vit C, potassium and a whole load of other vitamins and minerals, quite malnourished. Ergo, if they're coming down with a cold, taking a load of vitamin C isn't going to do much to stop the cold itself, but will counteract the normal malnourishment they've got, and so will make them feel better, and help their body fight the infection (which it wouldn't actually need help fighting if they weren't so fricking scurvy-ridden).

If you think this is not true, I can tell you of a recent local health survey, where tests showed that almost 40% of under-10's in the area had mild vit. C malnourishment, and around 1% were technically suffering from scurvy.
Turns out a quarter-pounder with cheese don't got much vitamin C.
 
2012-11-28 03:46:21 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

I'm confused... To what are referring?
 
2012-11-28 03:46:23 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: it's cheap, been used for thousands of years


And thats it in a nutshell- how is there profit in that ? You can grow that plant, yourself, and use it.
I am not saying all of big Pharma is evil, I am sure that there are quite a few involved that really do mean well,
but big Pharma is evil, overall. Marijuana is not some cancer busting drug, regardless of who says that it is. It is however, the best pain reliever out there for arthritis and chronic pain, and as an oil it has proven to help many folks muscular pain, when properly massaged into the skin.
At least, in my experience of about 25 years, give or take 2. You Mileage May Vary
And many plants also help, for other things. Big Pharma came to be from making aspirin, from the bark of a tree. They just made it synthetic. Science is a wonderful thing- it allows us to expand our future and remember how we got here in the fist place.
Those are my thoughts anyhow.
 
2012-11-28 03:50:08 AM

Wizard Drongo: Most people are, at least in terms of vit C, potassium and a whole load of other vitamins and minerals, quite malnourished


Vitamin D also, since kids spend more time indoors these days. I supplement with D because I don't consume dairy, and don't get 15 minutes of direct sunlight per day - and also because D is crucially important for a brazillian different processes in the body. It's not just nice or "helpful" to have, it's vitally important, for everything from metabolic function to thinking clearly.
 
2012-11-28 03:51:14 AM

Jim_Callahan: SundaesChild: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.

Yeeeees, because the amount of acne you get to begin with doesn't change between 16 and 41 on its own or anything.

Tobin_Lam: fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.

I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.

Medical personnel don't like using the phrase "a cold" to describe... a cold, for some reason. There's not really a general-use word for the general category of mild respiratory diseases with similarly mild fever, so they often use "flu" as a colloquial fill-in. In common use, the vast majority of the time that someone has 'the flu' they don't literally have the influenza virus either.

Also, if you're seriously going to the ER/Urgent Care for a goddamned cold, you're a terrible person and for once I mean that entirely seriously instead of with the usual internet hyperbolic tone. People like you are why folks with actual for real medical problems sometimes can't get help or can't afford it.


It was a little more complicated than that. "Bacterial Flu" was only part of my problem.
 
2012-11-28 03:52:18 AM
Since people like these herbal remedies, it makes perfect sense to make these things illegal. After all, they rishhsky and dannnngeroushhh and we need to profound wisdom of our local prescription writer to give us something that costs a couple of hundred dollars for 15-30 doses.
 
2012-11-28 03:52:39 AM
i.usatoday.net

Smilin' Bob and Enzyte's "Natural Male Enhancement".... wow, they did that scam on a massive scale. And strangely enough, they went for the "creepy" Smilin' Bob. Why did "creepy" work here at all?? Think about that!!

Enzyte used pharmaceutical packaging and a fake pharmaceutical name- "Suffragium asotas". Suffragium is Latin for "to vote", "asotas" is not a word, but guessing it to be a made-up form of a word of close spelling, it might translate as "refuge for the dissipated".

It's a collection of 11 supplements, none of which are new or unique. Ginkgo biloba, niacin, etc. Some have some basis in science, some are disproven. Of course none have ever suggested to enlarge a guy's dick by any form of science. They're purported to improve erection quality and/or sex drive.

www.dietresearch.com

Lipozene one was epic, too. Packaged like a pharmaceutical, commercial is "intense"... "Be advised, Lipozene is ONLY for people who have to lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of weight". WTF did that mean, actually? Are you saying it's too dangerous for minor weight loss?? One commercial said "It's far too powerful- and far too expensive- for casual weight loss."

Had to look this one up. Lipozene is caffeine, B6 & B12 vitamins, and konjac fiber (glucomannan). Also they did one called "Proplene" which was just konjac fiber. Which they've hugely inflated in price, and really just want your credit card number to scam with recurring bills you can't cancel.
 
2012-11-28 03:57:20 AM
Oznog:
true, many have sold fake cures / herbal remedies for, like, ever. But not all of it is crap.Most of it is. But not all.
 
2012-11-28 03:59:19 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


You're not supposed to smoke those energy crystals.
 
2012-11-28 04:00:29 AM

Vaneshi: Tobin_Lam: bacterial flu.

myheadisfulloffark.jpg

You either had flu (a virus) or a chest infection (bacterial). If you're coughing up green gunge it's most commonly a bacterial infection, if your joints hurt and shiat it's probably flu.

/Not a doctor.
//Does not constitute medical advice.


buttonpushingmonkey.files.wordpress.com

Hey, how's it hang, ese?

Says here you've got, like, a flu thing, but this is all, you know, BACTERIAL and shiat, so we need to PUMP you with some super-rad anti-bacteria to negate the flu bacteria and, you know, un-bacterialize your flu.
 
2012-11-28 04:11:46 AM

relcec: ephedera is completely banned as an over the counter supplement because it works so good people die, ya farking idiot. it increases heart rate, constricts blood vessels, and increases metabolism. it's part of why people pay money for meth.


Ephadra, ritalin, welbutrin, I don't begrudge anyone their legal meth as long you keep your grubby mitts off mine.
 
2012-11-28 04:13:52 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


James Randi old man gay frowns on your shenanigans.
 
2012-11-28 04:14:16 AM

alienated: Oznog:
true, many have sold fake cures / herbal remedies for, like, ever. But not all of it is crap.Most of it is. But not all.


Yeah but the interesting part is repackaging a cheap supplement available at Wal-Mart for basically nothing, and making millions selling it as a unique product, even though you can look up what it actually is.

I wonder, could they pull off a "dihydrogen monoxide" supplement too? If they tried??
 
2012-11-28 04:15:30 AM

Tobin_Lam: fluffy2097: Gyrfalcon: Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus.

Nobody prescribes antibiotics for a virus. They kill bacteria, not viruses.

They don't use penicillin anymore either. Bacteria have become resistant to it.

I recently got told by a nurse at an Urgent Care clinic that I had bacterial flu. I skip them now and just go to the ER.


Bacterial flus are best treated with hot water baths and the occasional intake of chamomile root, or so I hear.
 
2012-11-28 04:20:01 AM
So just because green tea isn't officially listed as a "drug" it means it's bad.?
 
2012-11-28 04:22:02 AM

Hermit Tard: Don't waste your time with herbal supplements.
Use body building supplements. They are constantly being reformulated to get as close to speed as legally possible. Most of them don't even attempt to make a claim that their supplement is anywhere near natural. Most of them carry the warning "These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat or prevent any disease."

I lost 10kgs in 8 weeks just from abusing using a pre-workout supplement until the main active ingredient was pretty universally banned for human consumption recently.


Also, this. Get the GNC or Prosource catalog, they're chock full of every kind of speed-lite, steroid-lite, HGH-lite, and dopamine-lite, and concentrate the active ingredients to such an insane degree compared to herbal medicine that it's akin to the difference between a blunt and a pot cookie - one gets you smiling, one puts you out. They might make you feel sick, but that's just the lack of sugar-coating.
 
2012-11-28 04:27:33 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: So just because green tea isn't officially listed as a "drug" it means it's bad.?


Know what's weird? The article didn't mention green tea in any way, and no one in the thread or headline mentioned it either. Just you.
 
2012-11-28 04:43:49 AM

fluffy2097: I died from marijuana years ago.

I'm still dead today.


i know a guy who did 3 hits of "pot" he was never the same after that
 
2012-11-28 04:56:53 AM

log_jammin: Jon iz teh kewl: So just because green tea isn't officially listed as a "drug" it means it's bad.?

Know what's weird? The article didn't mention green tea in any way, and no one in the thread or headline mentioned it either. Just you.


It's pimped as a healthful herb. That's why it's relevant. Some people are able to make connections to similar things not specifically mentioned in articles. TMYK.
 
2012-11-28 05:04:19 AM

untaken_name: It's pimped as a healthful herb. That's why it's relevant.


and no one has claimed it is "bad". That's why it's irrelevant.

untaken_name: Some people are able to make connections to similar things not specifically mentioned in articles.


and others are able to build a strawman to argue with.
 
2012-11-28 05:24:45 AM

ladyfortuna: gweilo8888: ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.

The dog will not go on long hikes when he's not been getting his meds. When he has, he'll follow the longer path voluntarily instead of sitting there refusing to follow. Talking a difference between 1 mile (short hike) to around 2-2.5 miles, so about twice as far. How is that MY imagination?

/whatever


How do we know you're not high right now and the dog doesn't even exist? See OUR dilemma? Hell, I'm not even sure you're real.

/passes the herbal supplement
 
2012-11-28 05:26:25 AM

ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...


About the Placebo Effect in animals.
 
2012-11-28 05:32:52 AM

That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: Anyone who says marijuana doesnt work clearly was using the placebo.


Yeah unfortunately for you marijuana actually does not work for a lot of people, and often doesn't work any better than an NSAID or a placebo. As mentioned in another post, a lot of relief people with chronic pain feel is placebo effect, simply because chronic pain usually has a psychogenic component, Red pills work better than blue, injections of saline work better than sugar pills. And just because it can't literally kill you does not mean long-term marijuana use doesn't have side effects (besides being intensely boring and giggly).

Just because stoners like to get high doesn't make marijuana some sort of wonder medicine. And stop riding on the backs of desperately ill people because you're too lame to just stand up in front of the world and say "I like to get farked up, I like to do it with marijuana, and I want it to be legal".

You're not helping, coward. In fact, you're hurting the cause for medical marijuana.
 
2012-11-28 05:42:42 AM

log_jammin: untaken_name: It's pimped as a healthful herb. That's why it's relevant.

and no one has claimed it is "bad". That's why it's irrelevant.

untaken_name: Some people are able to make connections to similar things not specifically mentioned in articles.

and others are able to build a strawman to argue with.


We all have skills. Also, you're wrong again. What a surprise.
Link Link Link

Oops. I guess "no one" means "many people" in your language, but I don't speak moran so I dunno.
 
2012-11-28 05:46:18 AM
Ephedra helped me lose my weight.

I could have done it without, but holy crap it worked so fast...

/ Banning ephedra was the worst thing GW did...
// unless you count killing a bunch of Iraqis to prove his member was larger than his dad's as being "bad"
 
2012-11-28 05:49:12 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


Please tell me you're engaging in self-parody here.
 
2012-11-28 05:54:04 AM

untaken_name: We all have skills. Also, you're wrong again. What a surprise.
Link Link Link

Oops. I guess "no one" means "many people" in your language, but I don't speak moran so I dunno.


oh jesus christ, learn to farking read.

I said no one in the thread or the article claimed that "because green tea isn't officially listed as a "drug" it means it's bad.?" it's a flat out strawman.

I never said "no study has ever claimed that Green tea can be harmful in large quantities".

in short, "no one" means that article or the thread, just as I said. Learn to english.
 
2012-11-28 05:54:43 AM

Gyrfalcon: Well, no.

Either they don't work--and hence are not dangerous, because they do nothing; or they DO work, and thus are dangerous because their effects have not been thoroughly tested and studied under controlled conditions.

You can't have it both ways.


Er, um, define "do nothing".
 
2012-11-28 06:04:54 AM

Gyrfalcon: Well, no.

Either they don't work--and hence are not dangerous, because they do nothing; or they DO work, and thus are dangerous because their effects have not been thoroughly tested and studied under controlled conditions.

You can't have it both ways.


Well, no.

If it has an effect on the body, it has to be a positive and intended one? :-\
 
2012-11-28 06:20:24 AM

Ashelth: So much fail in 2 lines of text.


I told you I was sick
 
2012-11-28 06:29:28 AM
s1.b3ta.com
 
2012-11-28 06:52:12 AM
If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form), then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol... the FDA is a joke and a sham. just like 1/2 of the other federal agencies...
 
2012-11-28 06:56:36 AM

foxyshadis: Also, this. Get the GNC or Prosource catalog, they're chock full of every kind of speed-lite, steroid-lite, HGH-lite, and dopamine-lite, and concentrate the active ingredients to such an insane degree compared to herbal medicine that it's akin to the difference between a blunt and a pot cookie - one gets you smiling, one puts you out. They might make you feel sick, but that's just the lack of sugar-coating.


Bodybuilding supplements are just as full of BS as nearly every other kind of supplement. They are untested, unregulated, and mostly just cheap filler ingredients like rice flour. It is all marketing, even if they do contain trace amounts of what they claim to have then it is in doses far too low to have any physiological effect. You heart racing is just cheap caffeine they put in there to give you a false positive. If you want that just buy some crystalline caffeine which only costs a couple of dollars.

Creatine is the only (legal) bodybuilding supplement that actually has any proven effect. Even there though it is easy to get ripped off, all you need is some cheap creatine monohydrate, and you only need about 5 grams a day. I used to buy a 3 month supply at target for $8.

/There is some evidence that Caffeine inhibits creatine uptake, so don't use them together unless you want to waste money.
 
2012-11-28 06:58:17 AM

log_jammin: Jon iz teh kewl: So just because green tea isn't officially listed as a "drug" it means it's bad.?

Know what's weird? The article didn't mention green tea in any way, and no one in the thread or headline mentioned it either. Just you.


but it's an herbal supplement. just like "deadly" nightshade
 
2012-11-28 06:58:24 AM

BostonEMT: If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form), then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol... the FDA is a joke and a sham. just like 1/2 of the other federal agencies...


The FDA told General Mills to stop making unproven health claims, such as they help lower cholesterol, which is their job.
 
2012-11-28 06:59:00 AM

BostonEMT: then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol


They were threatened because they made medical claims about lowering cholesterol, not because they lower cholesterol.
 
2012-11-28 07:00:03 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: but it's an herbal supplement. just like "deadly" nightshade


I thought it was a popular drink.
 
2012-11-28 07:18:43 AM

Beta Tested: BostonEMT: If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form), then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol... the FDA is a joke and a sham. just like 1/2 of the other federal agencies...

The FDA told General Mills to stop making unproven health claims, such as they help lower cholesterol, which is their job.


wrong - it WAS proven in at least one clinical Study Link. The FDA BULLIED a company for doing something 'naturally' that they lay claim to. Hell, the way things have been going in the past 10 years, the FDA doesn't much require even what cheerios did to get a drug approved - as long as the FDA officials are offered jobs there in the future... 

My point is that the FDA has lost any ethics it once had. don't even get me started on the GMO crap that they allow to get into the food supply... but yet CHEERIOS is evil...
 
2012-11-28 07:24:29 AM
 
2012-11-28 07:31:00 AM

BostonEMT: wrong - it WAS proven in at least one clinical Study Link. The FDA BULLIED a company for doing something 'naturally' that they lay claim to. Hell, the way things have been going in the past 10 years, the FDA doesn't much require even what cheerios did to get a drug approved - as long as the FDA officials are offered jobs there in the future... 

My point is that the FDA has lost any ethics it once had. don't even get me started on the GMO crap that they allow to get into the food supply... but yet CHEERIOS is evil...


"But according to the FDA, the Cheerios label inappropriately separates the heart disease and cholesterol claims.

The FDA also takes issue with a General Mills' web site mentioned on the Cheerios label that uses language that doesn't comply with approved health claims.

For instance, the approved health claim about heart disease is supposed to mention fiber, fruits, vegetables, and a low-fat diet -- not just whole-grain foods. And the FDA warned General Mills about another statement on that same web site that linked whole grains, as part of a low-fat diet, to reduced risk of stomach and colon cancers. That's not an approved health claim."

WebMD
 
2012-11-28 07:31:10 AM
Ever tried kratom?

/one hell of an effective herbal...
 
2012-11-28 07:32:19 AM
Log_jammin's link is way better than mine, read his instead.

I am not even going to get into epidemiology, which has a lot to say about single studies that show a positive correlation but have no follow up.
 
2012-11-28 07:36:06 AM
 
2012-11-28 07:41:20 AM
ITT: buttheads who don't understand the scientific method share anecdotes and whine about nonexistent conspiracies because they are reluctant to own up to believing in a set of myths that together add up to a derptastic new age religion.
 
2012-11-28 07:42:01 AM

fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?


3.bp.blogspot.com
/Approves
 
2012-11-28 07:44:49 AM

Oznog: alienated: Oznog:
true, many have sold fake cures / herbal remedies for, like, ever. But not all of it is crap.Most of it is. But not all.

Yeah but the interesting part is repackaging a cheap supplement available at Wal-Mart for basically nothing, and making millions selling it as a unique product, even though you can look up what it actually is.

I wonder, could they pull off a "dihydrogen monoxide" supplement too? If they tried??


they already do .
 
2012-11-28 07:57:22 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


Homeopathic is crap, you know that right? Homeopathic "medicine" is created by taking some substance with no proven ability to cure an ailment and diluting it with so much water that there are statistically 0 molecules of the original substance in the vial given to the patient.


IT'S JUST WATER
 
2012-11-28 08:00:58 AM

Lehk: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

Homeopathic is crap, you know that right? Homeopathic "medicine" is created by taking some substance with no proven ability to cure an ailment and diluting it with so much water that there are statistically 0 molecules of the original substance in the vial given to the patient.


IT'S JUST WATER


93.821% of all statistics are made up.
 
2012-11-28 08:14:12 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 390x295]
/Approves


Eh? So... Belladonna is a witch?
 
2012-11-28 08:24:05 AM

GardenWeasel: HindiDiscoMonster: fusillade762: Belladonna is still cool, though, right?

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 390x295]
/Approves

Eh? So... Belladonna is a witch?


No, it's what they used in Contac cold medicine's "tiny time pills" before the FDA banned it.
 
2012-11-28 08:24:36 AM
There are many quite beneficial herbs, but I would recommend consulting a real herbalist (yes, you can get degrees in this) rather than believing the claims of of a manufacturer or the cashier in your local herb store. Many herbs are just as effective as patent drugs and some are even more effective. In controlled, double-blind studies, saw palmetto berry extract has been shown to be much more effective in treating benign prostatic hypertrophy than any of the leading drugs (Flomax, Proscar, etc.)

The FDA cannot regulate herbs that grow wild and can be gathered by anyone. All they can do is limit the medical claims made by suppliers. This is all they should have the authority to do.
 
2012-11-28 08:30:33 AM

goatleggedfellow: Fano: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?

Idiot

It's like no one ever heard of Big Nutra, right? Where can I get on a piece of the " we don't have to prove it works, nor do we have to verify dosages, but just trust that this root will rewangify you"

THIS

Imply that your nutraceutical does something, but never state it outright.Foreign-sounding words and magic ingredients are crack to the yoga-loving pseudo-hippie chicks at Sprouts and Whole Foods. If they want to take something home and pretend it's good for them, it should be me.


Also weightlifters terrified of steroids take hilarious "natural test boosters" that do nothing at all. The ads in any muscle mag are hilarious. Some manufacturers name their common products as if they are steroids, market them as 'legal steroids' when really you're getting an $80 jar of pump powder (that other companies would sell for 20-30).
 
2012-11-28 08:34:04 AM

BostonEMT: Beta Tested: BostonEMT: If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form), then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol... the FDA is a joke and a sham. just like 1/2 of the other federal agencies...

The FDA told General Mills to stop making unproven health claims, such as they help lower cholesterol, which is their job.

wrong - it WAS proven in at least one clinical Study Link. The FDA BULLIED a company for doing something 'naturally' that they lay claim to. Hell, the way things have been going in the past 10 years, the FDA doesn't much require even what cheerios did to get a drug approved - as long as the FDA officials are offered jobs there in the future... 

My point is that the FDA has lost any ethics it once had. don't even get me started on the GMO crap that they allow to get into the food supply... but yet CHEERIOS is evil...


Surely you can do better than a PR release. And a 'study' presented at a conference and not published is a huge red flag as to the strength or veracity of the study's claims. If it can't pass peer-review, then it was probably a shoddy study.

/or nonexistant, but I'll wait for you to find the actual study
 
2012-11-28 08:36:23 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


If they worked, the pharmaceutical companies would just patent them and make money off of them.
 
2012-11-28 08:42:40 AM
Feck that. When I'm sick, echinacea helps more when I take it than it does when i don't.

Also, ol' Mary Jane wasn't regulated when it was legal over the counter pain medication the first go-round. Yet it worked. So why complain now that it's legal again?
 
2012-11-28 08:55:40 AM
Overhyped? Like the Slate itself? Why not print a bunch of op-ed pieces and pass them off as "articles" in some untouchable format like an online zine meant for rat fink comics and poorly drawn punk show flyers lol. Ya could call it, oh I don't know, The Slate...

/still contains more factual content than a Boingboing post
//0 is a percent
 
2012-11-28 08:56:10 AM

ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that


I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings -- but, scientifically speaking, you can't do something about that. You can make yourself healthier through improved diet and exercise but odds are, you can't significantly reduce your weight over the long term simply through diet and exercise. So don't focus on the number or the waist size. Focus on your cholesterol and blood pressure and cardiovascular endurance.

Oh, and here's the science: Link

It's a study of studies of long-term diet-and-exercise and their effects on weight loss. They found that in the best case, very low calorie diets combined with significant exercise regimes showed a long-term maintenance of only around 25% of your initial, one-year weight loss (around 10-15 pounds appears to be the most you can keep off). It's just not scientifically sound to think that people can lose weight in the long term and keep it off.

/Of course, there are plenty of Luddites out there who have a knee-jerk hatred of science who will try to convince you otherwise. Eat properly and exercise because those are good things, not to make yourself look different.
 
2012-11-28 09:00:37 AM

log_jammin: Jon iz teh kewl: but it's an herbal supplement. just like "deadly" nightshade

I thought it was a popular drink.


kava kava is a popular drink
 
2012-11-28 09:00:46 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


You actually nailed it on the head, very astute. I actually do a lot of work in the supplement industry. According to the 1994 DSHEA, dietary supplements are meant to literally "supplement" the diet to achieve a healthier status, either overall or condition specific. The reputable supplements are meant to be taken long-term to support the structure and function of an area in the human body. They are not meant to be a quick fix or to treat or cure any problem. That is what pharmaceuticals do. Dietary supplements are not meant to supplant or act like pharmaceuticals. So if the media starts out with the bias that a supplement is supposed to work like a drug, they are immediately wrong. By the way, glucosamine is not an herbal supplement.
 
2012-11-28 09:04:18 AM

Oznog: [i.usatoday.net image 245x191]

Smilin' Bob and Enzyte's "Natural Male Enhancement".... wow, they did that scam on a massive scale. And strangely enough, they went for the "creepy" Smilin' Bob. Why did "creepy" work here at all?? Think about that!!

Enzyte used pharmaceutical packaging and a fake pharmaceutical name- "Suffragium asotas". Suffragium is Latin for "to vote", "asotas" is not a word, but guessing it to be a made-up form of a word of close spelling, it might translate as "refuge for the dissipated".

It's a collection of 11 supplements, none of which are new or unique. Ginkgo biloba, niacin, etc. Some have some basis in science, some are disproven. Of course none have ever suggested to enlarge a guy's dick by any form of science. They're purported to improve erection quality and/or sex drive.

[www.dietresearch.com image 399x243]

Lipozene one was epic, too. Packaged like a pharmaceutical, commercial is "intense"... "Be advised, Lipozene is ONLY for people who have to lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of weight". WTF did that mean, actually? Are you saying it's too dangerous for minor weight loss?? One commercial said "It's far too powerful- and far too expensive- for casual weight loss."

Had to look this one up. Lipozene is caffeine, B6 & B12 vitamins, and konjac fiber (glucomannan). Also they did one called "Proplene" which was just konjac fiber. Which they've hugely inflated in price, and really just want your credit card number to scam with recurring bills you can't cancel.


Oznog, I would love to get the maker of Lipozene in real trouble as they clearly violate FTC regulations. This is a company that has been doing this for years.
 
2012-11-28 09:04:45 AM

Kevin72: Hit piece. Now go back to your genetically modified wheat, high fructose corn syrup, fluoridated water. And of course pharmaceuticals.


And you go back to denying evolution, or whatever you anti-science types do on the weekend.
 
2012-11-28 09:05:08 AM

wildcardjack: I probably need a new bed, but my back is feeling better.


Pillow and I occasionally add buckwheat hulls to mine. They compact. On a good, flat bed, these really do help you align your neck with your spine. Not to mention, with a headache, I usually just fluff the pillow a bit (tbh, I flip it over) and lay on my back and the pillow slightly lifts the base of the skull. This pulling relieves pressure in the area, which completely eliminates (and prevents) certain types of headaches.

I actually sleep on one of their futons, on a stable floor (i.e. level joists and good solid subfloor) or on tatami. I roll that up when I get up in the morning. Something I bothered with when I was in a small apartment, because I could roll the bed up and stick a mat on top and stick the kotatsu on the mat and have a more open room. I had/have a kotatsu because I sit on the floor like Japanese/Indian/etc because chairs take up space and the apartment was cramped without any of that; now that I bought a house, I actually have my computer on a desk with a chair (I'm seriously considering building a standing desk that I can crank up and down).
 
2012-11-28 09:08:47 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


At first, I thought you were just trolling but now I'm pretty sure that you believe those items. Amusingly, nearly every assumption in your statement is false -- he's not a right-winger, he is, in fact, an expert, and there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

If there was, then the pharmaceutical companies would patent it and make a butt-load of money off it.

Also, on the topic of homeopathy -- how is it that water has memory enough to recall the "imprint" of onion or whatever but conveniently forgets all the shiat that's been in it?
 
2012-11-28 09:10:51 AM

Jim_Callahan: There's not really a general-use word for the general category of mild respiratory diseases with similarly mild fever


Upper Respiratory Tract Infection is a good catch-all that's easy to understand and specific. Also, sinusitis is a more specific type of one which is what we generally call a cold.
 
2012-11-28 09:15:58 AM

meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.


tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.
 
2012-11-28 09:16:55 AM

meanmutton: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

At first, I thought you were just trolling but now I'm pretty sure that you believe those items. Amusingly, nearly every assumption in your statement is false -- he's not a right-winger, he is, in fact, an expert, and there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

If there was, then the pharmaceutical companies would patent it and make a butt-load of money off it.

Also, on the topic of homeopathy -- how is it that water has memory enough to recall the "imprint" of onion or whatever but conveniently forgets all the shiat that's been in it?


I don't know. How does the memory in the water transfer to the completely dry homeopathic tablets sold?
 
2012-11-28 09:19:20 AM

Gyrfalcon: Well, no.

Either they don't work--and hence are not dangerous, because they do nothing; or they DO work, and thus are dangerous because their effects have not been thoroughly tested and studied under controlled conditions.

You can't have it both ways.

Myself, I'm guessing that in fact most of these herbal supplements do work, and in fact the chemicals in them work quite well; however, because they have not been tested adequately subject to rigorous scientific testing, the full range of effects (both desired and so-called "side" effects) are not completely known, nor are the drug interactions.

As to why they have not been tested, again, my own suspicion is that nobody's hands are clean. The drug companies really have no reason NOT to test them, since they'd love to have another market to make $$$$!!! from; however, the herbal remedy market has a lot to lose by having their herbs subjected to rigorous testing, and a lot more to lose by having their squeaky-clean image tarnished by having a Merck label slapped on the side; plus, they make all their buckage by proclaiming that their cures are made because their "herbs" and "minerals" are not merely a bunch of chemical compounds but are "natural" and "organic" and would lose a lot of devotees if scientists and doctors came in and proved that the active ingredient in that wholesome St. John's Wort is really chemically identical to sertraline or whatever it is that the holistic herbalist is telling you it isn't.

OTOH, a lot of mainstream doctors get a lot of mileage out of pretending that they're above the naturopathic holistic cures and what you REALLY need is a pill and not a pile of leaves; and why should they waste their time testing a bunch of plants when we all know that drinking a cup of Grandma's chicken soup does nothing more for the flu than a zinc lozenge (nothing) except make you feel warm. Or getting a shot of penicillin either, which does nothing against a virus. Anyhoo, the point of all this is that NOB ...


I think the government should shift a bit of defense money to research grants on the topic and have universities study various herbal remedies, whether they are really effective, the ideal dosages and so on. Ideally, universities receiving the grants would have no ties to either the pharmaceutical or the herbal industries.
 
2012-11-28 09:19:27 AM

Jim_Callahan: SundaesChild: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

I like that chart. I'd move Aloe up though. I have been using it as a facial cleanser since I was 16. I am 41 now. I get carded all the time. I get carded when other people at my table who are my age or younger are passed over. Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.

Yeeeees, because the amount of acne you get to begin with doesn't change between 16 and 41 on its own or anything.


Who is talking about acne at my age? These days it's all about laugh lines and crow's feet. While my friends are shelling out for Botox and filler, I still look pretty damn good.
 
2012-11-28 09:28:37 AM

Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.


Am I sleepy, don't understand homeopatic medicine, or is this a non sequitur?
 
2012-11-28 09:36:35 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?

Except, the major pharmaceutical companies make a killing off selling herbal supplements. They play both sides of the fence, and do it effectively.



Damn right they do, but the problem is that the supplement arm of the business has too much competition, so ideally, they try to isolate and synthesize what they THINK might be the "active compound" in an herb, patent it, sell it as a DRUG, and make billions.

And when it comes to shady, illegal and unethical practices, the herbal industry can't gold a candle to the RX Drug Cartels.

Scientific American: How Drug Company Money Is Undermining Science
 
2012-11-28 09:41:56 AM
good news everybody. we'll just outlaw plants and make only synthetic pills legal. why, i've got some depacotestatin, and some tricorfenphen right here for us all!
 
2012-11-28 09:43:35 AM
Avandia: increased risk of heart attack and increased fracture risk
Chantix: linked to suicide
Enbrel: alleged side effects include serious blood problems, allergic reactions, fungal infections, and cancer
Fen Phen: A combination of drugs prescribed for weight loss has led to Primary Pulmonary Hypertension (PPH) and heart valve damage
Gadolinium: linked to NFS/NFD, a dangerous skin disease reported with gadolinium-based contrast agents
Heparin: contamination linked to severe allergic reactions
Levaquin (including Avelox and Cipro): can cause tendon rupture
Paxil: linked to birth defects such as ventricular septal defects, and infant death
Reglan:side effects include tardive dyskinesia
Seroquel: linked to diabetes and neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS)
Simvastatin/Amiodarone: risk of Rhabdomyolysis when drugs are used together
Tylenol: linked to liver damage
Yasmin/Yaz: linked to deep vein thrombosis (DVT); Pulmonary embolism (PE); gallbladder complications and gallbladder disease; stroke; heart attack and death linked to liver damage
Zicam: can damage sense of smell and taste
 
2012-11-28 09:46:18 AM

Oznog: alienated: Oznog:
true, many have sold fake cures / herbal remedies for, like, ever. But not all of it is crap.Most of it is. But not all.

Yeah but the interesting part is repackaging a cheap supplement available at Wal-Mart for basically nothing, and making millions selling it as a unique product, even though you can look up what it actually is.

I wonder, could they pull off a "dihydrogen monoxide" supplement too? If they tried??


don't breath that shiat, it'll kill ya!
 
2012-11-28 09:49:17 AM

SundaesChild: Aloe Vera is awesome for skin care.


It's also about the most forgiving house plant this side of a spider plant.
 
2012-11-28 09:52:53 AM
The problem, with supplements is they are sold OVER THE COUNTER.
You wouldn't (well, some farkers would....) buy heart medicine over the counter
without a doctors advice, so should you with anything that could be considered
a "medicine". Hell, "sudafed" use to be prescription only until the 70's, and look
how it has been abused.
 
2012-11-28 10:08:39 AM

SwiftFox: Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.

Am I sleepy, don't understand homeopatic medicine, or is this a non sequitur?


Smoking weed IS NOT homeopathy and homeopathy IS NOT medicine. Homeopathy is the quack idea that all the body needs a minuscule amount of an effective drug or herb. Here's how it goes take a dose of an effective drug or herb and dissolve it in a quart of water. Then take an ounce if this solution and dilute it in a gallon of water. Then take a drop of this solution and dilute it in four ounces of water. Dispense this to a patient, with instructions to dilute one drop of the solution in water and drink it twice per day. The patient may get a single molecule of the drug per dose. Homeopathy has been denounced as pure quackery for over 100 years.
 
2012-11-28 10:09:58 AM

GladGirl: 1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.

Link

Seems like a thoughtful list, and I'm generally skeptical of a lot of easy answers to medical problems. But I swear that Vitex (chasteberry, low on that chart) got me pregnant. Well, that and a penis. Could have been a coincidence, but I doubt it.



Penises are NOT proven to be safe and effective in clinical studies!
 
2012-11-28 10:10:24 AM

p51d007: The problem, with supplements is they are sold OVER THE COUNTER.
You wouldn't (well, some farkers would....) buy heart medicine over the counter
without a doctors advice, so should you with anything that could be considered
a "medicine". Hell, "sudafed" use to be prescription only until the 70's, and look
how it has been abused.


who's doctor? mine?? cause mine doesn't even want me to take creatine.
 
2012-11-28 10:11:21 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


Truth hurts.
 
2012-11-28 10:15:38 AM

Fixxor: any word on the effectiveness of echinacea? anyone?

/srsly. my gf makes me take it when i start to look/sound sick and i just want to know.


no better than doing nothing, if anything it makes a cold last longer
 
2012-11-28 10:18:11 AM

ladyfortuna: wiredmaverick: Glucosamine was recently upgraded to an "A" rating for osteoarthritis of the knee by Natural Standard (generally considered to be the most important natural health products resource among health care professionals).

They consider an "A" to be:

Statistically significant evidence of benefit from >2 properly randomized trials (RCTs), OR evidence from one properly conducted RCT AND one properly conducted meta-analysis, OR evidence from multiple RCTs with a clear majority of the properly conducted trials showing statistically significant evidence of benefit AND with supporting evidence in basic science, animal studies, or theory.

My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...


Placebo effects do work on animals too: it is the owner who behaves differently / sees things differently
 
2012-11-28 10:18:52 AM

Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.


Homeopathic medicine has no more in common with the anti-nauseogenic properties of marijuana than chiropracty does.
 
2012-11-28 10:20:47 AM
marijuana does not need regulation aside from the mexican brown ditch weed, & it has no bad side effects!
 
2012-11-28 10:21:49 AM
Marihuana should be strictly regulated!!! My roommate injected 4 marijuanas and overdosed and DIED!
 
2012-11-28 10:22:53 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Bullshiat glucosamine doesn't work. It was the only thing that helped me recover from bursitis in both knees at the same time. Physical therapy, large doses of NSAIDS, opiates, etc. Not a goddamned thing did more than dull the agony. It made it so I could walk without a cane but that was all. I started taking glucosamine and it made enough of an improvement that after 4 years of barely being able to walk the other therapies were able to finally start working.

Today I'm limited only in my ability to run. A quarter mile is all the knees can handle but I can walk 10 miles or ride a bike halfway to forever.


Yeah I used to have that. For years.

Guess what? Cleared up.
 
2012-11-28 10:24:43 AM

unfarkingbelievable: You actually nailed it on the head, very astute. I actually do a lot of work in the supplement industry.


In what capacity? (if you don't mind my asking)

:-)
 
2012-11-28 10:27:02 AM

meanmutton: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

At first, I thought you were just trolling but now I'm pretty sure that you believe those items. Amusingly, nearly every assumption in your statement is false -- he's not a right-winger, he is, in fact, an expert, and there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

If there was, then the pharmaceutical companies would patent it and make a butt-load of money off it.

Also, on the topic of homeopathy -- how is it that water has memory enough to recall the "imprint" of onion or whatever but conveniently forgets all the shiat that's been in it?



"Homeopathic medicine" and herbal remedies / supplements are NOT the same thing.

/FYI
 
2012-11-28 10:28:07 AM

Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.



Weed = herbal remedy.

Look up the definition of homeopathy.
 
2012-11-28 10:30:30 AM

Beta Tested: foxyshadis: Also, this. Get the GNC or Prosource catalog, they're chock full of every kind of speed-lite, steroid-lite, HGH-lite, and dopamine-lite, and concentrate the active ingredients to such an insane degree compared to herbal medicine that it's akin to the difference between a blunt and a pot cookie - one gets you smiling, one puts you out. They might make you feel sick, but that's just the lack of sugar-coating.

Bodybuilding supplements are just as full of BS as nearly every other kind of supplement. They are untested, unregulated, and mostly just cheap filler ingredients like rice flour. It is all marketing, even if they do contain trace amounts of what they claim to have then it is in doses far too low to have any physiological effect. You heart racing is just cheap caffeine they put in there to give you a false positive. If you want that just buy some crystalline caffeine which only costs a couple of dollars.

Creatine is the only (legal) bodybuilding supplement that actually has any proven effect. Even there though it is easy to get ripped off, all you need is some cheap creatine monohydrate, and you only need about 5 grams a day. I used to buy a 3 month supply at target for $8.

/There is some evidence that Caffeine inhibits creatine uptake, so don't use them together unless you want to waste money.


The best part about those bodybuilding supplements is that a couple of gallons of milk and $30 of ribeye will do you a lot better than those big tubs of powder. But nobody plasters the butcher's case with "SCIENTIFICLY PROVIN" nonsense about how this one time 14 college students "gained mass" by chowing down on cheeseburgers.
 
2012-11-28 10:32:27 AM
For anyone interested in a comic approach on alternative remedies, I recommend Dara O'Brien's "Dara O'Brien Talks Funny" show. Paraphrased, "All the stuff that worked, they purified, concentrated, and called it medicine, and everything that's left is a nice cup of tea and some potpourri."

Or in other words, "If alternative medicine worked, they'd just call it 'medicine'."
 
2012-11-28 10:33:52 AM
But Seth MacFarlane has gotten millions of dollars out of suckers because of one of those supplements. So it must be working.
 
2012-11-28 10:38:04 AM

fredsnake: marijuana does not need regulation aside from the mexican brown ditch weed, & it has no bad side effects!


I don't know, if the goal is pain relief, I would say being too zonked out to do anything but watch cartoons for a few hours is a pretty severe side effect. It's enjoyable, sure, but it's a lot easier to go about your day on naxopren than cannibis.
 
2012-11-28 10:38:48 AM

Lehk: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

Homeopathic is crap, you know that right? Homeopathic "medicine" is created by taking some substance with no proven ability to cure an ailment and diluting it with so much water that there are statistically 0 molecules of the original substance in the vial given to the patient.


IT'S JUST WATER


I had to have a serious talk with my daughter when she came home one day and told me her BFF's mother was raising money to go to africa and set up a charity to treat AIDS patients with homeopathy.

It crossed my mind that some people are so dangerously misguided that they need to be taken out in a field and shot ...
 
2012-11-28 10:42:12 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.


I had a friend whose dog suffered arthritis or some joint ailment. Her vet recommended glucosamine pills for dogs. They were freaking huge like horse sized pills, prescription I think and my friend complained that they cost a ton. The dog originally stayed up nights whining and wailing in pain and apparently when the dog started receiving the glucosamine supplement, the dog could sleep through the nights without crying. I think the "not squealing bloody murder" is a fairly concrete measurement of the dog's status that does not allow for observer's bias. It isn't proof that glucosamine is a magic cure for any human ailment or even proof that it cured anything for the dog. The dog still eventually died from ailments relating to its age. I just hope that the dog was in less pain near the end. Just because a person reports a positive/negative experience with some sort of drug, doesn't mean they are crazy or biased (the person isn't even the patient in the examples). All research does is iterate experiences like that and actively work to reduce bias.

Some research shows that glucosamine can be clinically useful. That's the problem with supplements. They don't make money so they don't inspire a shiat ton of well designed research studies. Another problem is that they aren't highly regulated, so you don't always know what you are getting when you buy a bottle. The substances aren't guaranteed pure like the prescription pills at the pharmacy.
 
2012-11-28 10:54:25 AM

lohphat: ladyfortuna: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

That's the problem with anecdotal evidence. For every story like yours there are untold stories where nothing happened to benefit someone taking the same dose with a similar problems. You end up with confirmation bias skewing the results. You could have been taking sugar pills and had the same result.

That's why controlled studies are important -- to filter out bias and coincidence.

How many people insisted radium pills and toothpaste "invigorated" their health in the 1910's?


I don't deny that you make a good point...but do you know how research is conducted? A lot of studies go off of patient self report. You bring a patient in after a week on a medicine and ask them to subjectively rate how they feel and what side effects they have experienced. If someone says they have longer endurance on hikes, that is written down. While it's proof of nothing here, and in a real research study you would need many subjects to report the same thing before declaring it a finding, it's still a valid observation by this person on this website where people are entitled to share their experiences and opinions. I don't think anyone is going to take his anecdote on blind fath, but if you can find 12 people on here to report the same thing? Well, studies have been published on less.
 
2012-11-28 11:01:33 AM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


1) HERBS ARE NOT HOMEOPATHIC
2) HOMEOPATHIC IS farkING WATER AND LITERAL SUGAR PILLS, YOU IDIOT, AND WATER DOES NOT DO shiat OTHER THAN HYDRATE

Stop giving all your money to whole paycheck, you tard.
 
2012-11-28 11:01:35 AM

quietwalker: For anyone interested in a comic approach on alternative remedies, I recommend Dara O'Brien's "Dara O'Brien Talks Funny" show. Paraphrased, "All the stuff that worked, they purified, concentrated, and called it medicine, and everything that's left is a nice cup of tea and some potpourri."

Or in other words, "If alternative medicine worked, they'd just call it 'medicine'."



Pharmaceutical drugs, properly prescribed and taken as directed kill and maim MANY times more people every year than all supplements AND illegal drugs (heroin, coke meth, etc) combined.


/Safe and effective
 
2012-11-28 11:02:25 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: It's a couple years old, but here's a cool infographic on the various supplements and the amount of evidence that supports their claims.
Link


Interesting. Thanks.

log_jammin:
Know what's weird? The article didn't mention green tea in any way, and no one in the thread or headline mentioned it either. Just you.


It's in that graphic for cholesterol (and ranked very highly). I hate tea but I'd drink a bunch of green tea before I'd take some of those cholesterol-lowering drugs. I hear they have some serious side effects sometimes. 

For someone like me, who never goes to the doctor, has no insurance, takes no scrip drugs, and now is getting old besides, herbal supplements that work would be the best thing in the world. I've tried a few things here and there, but I'm healthy so my results are inconclusive. I've tried different things for seasonal depression, but the Vitamin D seems to work the best.

and I wouldn't touch ephedra. I still remember some bad experiences from taking diet pills when I was young. I cannot handle anything that is "speedy." It would probably give me a heart attack nowadays.
 
2012-11-28 11:05:26 AM

Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.


THAT IS NOT WHAT HOMEOPATHY IS YOU IDIOT!!!
 
2012-11-28 11:07:03 AM

StashMonster: I had to have a serious talk with my daughter when she came home one day and told me her BFF's mother was raising money to go to africa and set up a charity to treat AIDS patients with homeopathy.


Maybe she misheard and the mother was raising money to go to Africa to set up a charity to create AIDS patients with homopathy.
 
2012-11-28 11:10:30 AM

cryinoutloud: It's in that graphic for cholesterol (and ranked very highly). I hate tea but I'd drink a bunch of green tea before I'd take some of those cholesterol-lowering drugs. I hear they have some serious side effects sometimes.


1 cup green tea, 1 cup coffee, 1 beer / glass of red, and maybe some fish oil if you're feeling creaky is a pretty cheap and painless daily supplement regime. If you eat a bunch of various vegetables as well, a lot of of the other stuff is redundant.
 
2012-11-28 11:11:20 AM

cryinoutloud: For someone like me, who never goes to the doctor, has no insurance, takes no scrip drugs, and now is getting old besides, herbal supplements that work would be the best thing in the world. I've tried a few things here and there, but I'm healthy so my results are inconclusive. I've tried different things for seasonal depression, but the Vitamin D seems to work the best.



The importance of Vitamin D is underrated.

75% of Americans and farking 97% of black Americans are deficient, and it can have a huge impact on your health.

Best source: Sunshine. Beyond that, take the supplements.
 
2012-11-28 11:14:34 AM

relcec: ephedera is completely banned as an over the counter supplement because it works so good people die, ya farking idiot. it increases heart rate, constricts blood vessels, and increases metabolism. it's part of why people pay money for meth.


Wrong on so many levels.

Ephedra is an expectorant- It opens up blood vessels and expands capilaries. Does not increase heart rate.

Taken with caffiene to increas heat rate- it is a synergistic relationship. One speed up the heart the other allows it to work easier. Was proven to be safe in 99% of people. The ones who died (all 4) had heart irregularities/dehydrated/took way too much.
 
2012-11-28 11:15:48 AM

meanmutton: ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that

I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings -- but, scientifically speaking, you can't do something about that. You can make yourself healthier through improved diet and exercise but odds are, you can't significantly reduce your weight over the long term simply through diet and exercise. So don't focus on the number or the waist size. Focus on your cholesterol and blood pressure and cardiovascular endurance.

Oh, and here's the science: Link

It's a study of studies of long-term diet-and-exercise and their effects on weight loss. They found that in the best case, very low calorie diets combined with significant exercise regimes showed a long-term maintenance of only around 25% of your initial, one-year weight loss (around 10-15 pounds appears to be the most you can keep off). It's just not scientifically sound to think that people can lose weight in the long term and keep it off.

/Of course, there are plenty of Luddites out there who have a knee-jerk hatred of science who will try to convince you otherwise. Eat properly and exercise because those are good things, not to make yourself look different.


Wow, so surprised a nutrition journal would publish something suggesting that one can't lose significant weight without very low calorie dieting. Just a note for your claim "scientifically speaking, you can't do something about that"...that's patently false...science identifies patterns and probabilities. First of, there will always be outliers in populations. Then there will always be errors in scientists' methodologies and models. I lost almost 80 lbs with diet and exercise and have kept it off for over six years, though according to you it scientifically can't be done.

Good job discouraging people from the get go. It is good to have realistic expectations and it is good to exercise and eat healthily for one's longevity rather than for numbers on a scale, but don't overstate what you view as "reality" all based on one meta-analysis. The good things that one should take from that article are that exercise helps keep weight off and that at least periodic low cal dieting helps take weight off and keep it off too. I don't think it's good to combine starvation and heavy exercise, so it's good to find balance.

/personal trainer who specializes in weight loss
//my job is apparently to breach the scientifically impossible
 
2012-11-28 11:16:09 AM

elysive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

I had a friend whose dog suffered arthritis or some joint ailment. Her vet recommended glucosamine pills for dogs. They were freaking huge like horse sized pills, prescription I think and my friend complained that they cost a ton. The dog originally stayed up nights whining and wailing in pain and apparently when the dog started receiving the glucosamine supplement, the dog could sleep through the nights without crying. I think the "not squealing bloody murder" is a fairly concrete measurement of the dog's status that does not allow for observer's bias. It isn't proof that glucosamine is a magic cure for any human ailment or even proof that it cured anything for the dog. The dog still eventually died from ailments relating to its age. I just hope that the dog was in less pain near the end. Just because a person reports a positive/negative experience with some sort of drug, doesn't mean they are crazy or biased (the person isn't even the patient in the examples). All research does is iterate experiences like that and actively work to reduce bias.

Some research shows that glucosamine can be clinically useful. That's the problem with supplements. They don't make money so they don't inspire a shiat ton of well designed research studies. Another problem is that they aren't highly regulated, so you don't always know what you are getting when you buy a bottle. The substances aren't guaranteed pure like the prescription pills at the pharmacy.


The problem is precisely the opposite. They do make money. Maybe not quite as much as Bristol Myers Squibb are hauling in, but still more than enough to pay a salary an ordinarily greedy CEO could live on. If they did a series of studies proving the snake-oil du jour did bupkis, it would probably make less money, so the studies aren't done. They get away with this because there's no regulatory structure in place that says they have to make sure they're making valid claims about anything marketed as a "supplement".
 
2012-11-28 11:19:25 AM

forgotmydamnusername: elysive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: ladyfortuna: My MIL gives it to her old dog, and he seems to do better on the days he gets it. Pretty sure he's not operating under the placebo effect...

there's your placebo effect.

I had a friend whose dog suffered arthritis or some joint ailment. Her vet recommended glucosamine pills for dogs. They were freaking huge like horse sized pills, prescription I think and my friend complained that they cost a ton. The dog originally stayed up nights whining and wailing in pain and apparently when the dog started receiving the glucosamine supplement, the dog could sleep through the nights without crying. I think the "not squealing bloody murder" is a fairly concrete measurement of the dog's status that does not allow for observer's bias. It isn't proof that glucosamine is a magic cure for any human ailment or even proof that it cured anything for the dog. The dog still eventually died from ailments relating to its age. I just hope that the dog was in less pain near the end. Just because a person reports a positive/negative experience with some sort of drug, doesn't mean they are crazy or biased (the person isn't even the patient in the examples). All research does is iterate experiences like that and actively work to reduce bias.

Some research shows that glucosamine can be clinically useful. That's the problem with supplements. They don't make money so they don't inspire a shiat ton of well designed research studies. Another problem is that they aren't highly regulated, so you don't always know what you are getting when you buy a bottle. The substances aren't guaranteed pure like the prescription pills at the pharmacy.

The problem is precisely the opposite. They do make money. Maybe not quite as much as Bristol Myers Squibb are hauling in, but still more than enough to pay a salary an ordinarily greedy CEO could live on. If they did a series of studies proving the snake-oil du jour did bupkis, it would probably make less money, so ...


I should say they make less money than pharmaceuticals. I think people underestimate the costs associated with research...but then I don't know exactly how much nutriceuticals rake in. All I know is that I've worked in research were millions have barely made a dent.
 
2012-11-28 11:20:43 AM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


This. Drug companies can always find a "journalist" to write this article every week or so with a few well-placed dollars.
 
2012-11-28 11:56:45 AM

elysive: meanmutton: ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that

I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings -- but, scientifically speaking, you can't do something about that. You can make yourself healthier through improved diet and exercise but odds are, you can't significantly reduce your weight over the long term simply through diet and exercise. So don't focus on the number or the waist size. Focus on your cholesterol and blood pressure and cardiovascular endurance.

Oh, and here's the science: Link

It's a study of studies of long-term diet-and-exercise and their effects on weight loss. They found that in the best case, very low calorie diets combined with significant exercise regimes showed a long-term maintenance of only around 25% of your initial, one-year weight loss (around 10-15 pounds appears to be the most you can keep off). It's just not scientifically sound to think that people can lose weight in the long term and keep it off.

/Of course, there are plenty of Luddites out there who have a knee-jerk hatred of science who will try to convince you otherwise. Eat properly and exercise because those are good things, not to make yourself look different.

Wow, so surprised a nutrition journal would publish something suggesting that one can't lose significant weight without very low calorie dieting. Just a note for your claim "scientifically speaking, you can't do something about that"...that's patently false...science identifies patt ...


pixelatedpop.com
 
2012-11-28 11:57:39 AM

Notabunny: ladyfortuna: LoneWolf343: ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated, because they forced all the manufacturers to replace it with something else. Metabolife was in interesting experiment, back when I was just out of highschool.

/I blame my ex and his constant search for weight loss remedies

He sounds fat.

At this point, yes, but at the time he was just a couple of years out of high school after having played football, so he hadn't toally adjusted to eating less and was pudgy on top of muscle. Last I saw he was outright fat though.

/also fat
/need to do something about that

Eat To Live Basically it's a vegan diet. It's cheap and easy. The breathless and overenthusiastic writing is a bit much, but it works. I follow about 75% of it, lost a little over 12 pounds in almost 5 weeks, and I'm never hungry. Really. Never. I'm full all the time. Also, my total cholesterol is down a bit over 40 points, and my blood pressure is now 107 over 78.


Pff. You sound formerly fat.
 
2012-11-28 12:20:30 PM
True I just ctrl fed the article but I see no mention of pot. Never have found a medical study that says it can cause anything more than the munchies if not consumed through smoking.
 
2012-11-28 12:39:14 PM

ladyfortuna: Uhh, ephedra is so regulated


It is also very easy to find online.

It is also very effective as an appetite suppressant and weight loss tool.
 
2012-11-28 01:24:44 PM
ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.


When my dog had ligaments in his knees replaced the vet advocated glucosomine and fish oil for his joints. After giving that to him for awhile I decided to try it on my cat. The cat is 16 yrs old and has joints that click with every movement. The clicking is now gone. Presence or absence of a specific noise and/or the rate of that noises occurrence is not a placebo effect.

The problem with some of the studies done on these supplements is that they don't use people suffering from the correct ailments. A study mentioned earlier looked at the effect of glucosomine on people with lower back pain. Since most lower back pain is muscular of course it had no effect. Testing Vitamin C on people who get enough would show that it is useless. Testing it on people with scurvy would not.

I take a number of supplements. When I hear about something that addresses a problem I have, I give it a try. If it doesn't work (~1/3 the time), I drop it as it isn't what I need. I eat almost no fruits and vegetables, so I supplement the vitamins I lack. (Yes, eating the fruits and veggies would be healthier, no I'm not going to do it.) Most recently I started a B complex. It didn't work on what I was trying it for, but it cleared up a number of other issues. I take Vitamin D because even if I was willing to stand outside at noon with my face uncovered for 15 minutes, the sun doesn't rise high enough in the sky to give the proper dose. I take lecithin and niacin for cholesterol as before and after blood tests gave pretty good results on reducing bad cholesterol and boosting good. Everyone's chemistry is different so you have to find what works for you.
 
2012-11-28 01:31:59 PM

if_i_really_have_to: That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: Anyone who says marijuana doesnt work clearly was using the placebo.

Yeah unfortunately for you marijuana actually does not work for a lot of people, and often doesn't work any better than an NSAID or a placebo. As mentioned in another post, a lot of relief people with chronic pain feel is placebo effect, simply because chronic pain usually has a psychogenic component, Red pills work better than blue, injections of saline work better than sugar pills. And just because it can't literally kill you does not mean long-term marijuana use doesn't have side effects (besides being intensely boring and giggly).

Just because stoners like to get high doesn't make marijuana some sort of wonder medicine. And stop riding on the backs of desperately ill people because you're too lame to just stand up in front of the world and say "I like to get farked up, I like to do it with marijuana, and I want it to be legal".

You're not helping, coward. In fact, you're hurting the cause for medical marijuana.


I can agree and disagree with you. On one hand, yeah, a lot of stoners are riding the backs of sick people, and that is disgusting to me.

I admit, I like to get high, and booze doesn't float my boat per se. I like pot. Regardless of the following paragraphs, I do not condone the use of one cause as a mask for another, less honorable one... I like getting giggly-high, but I won't pretend that my want belongs in any arena that is categorized as need.

When my wife was going though chemotherapy at ages 24-25 for stage 4 non-hodgkins lymphoma, I hit up the old connection for some pot. She had a pile of oxycontin at her disposal. She reported that it had a negligible effect on her bone pain. Pot, on the other hand, made her not care about that pain. She said it would dull the pain a bit, but it was not caring about the pain that was the better effect.

Even if it were just a placebo effect, I'd wager that if a person can benefit from that effect and that person is in bad, bad pain, that said sufferer would welcome the placebo effect. That's something often ignored in arguments I read such as yours above. A placebo effect is not worthless to a sufferer.

Also, I do realize that the plural form of "anecdote" is not "data". This is just a wee morsel of food for thought.
 
2012-11-28 02:27:32 PM

ladyfortuna: The dog will not go on long hikes when he's not been getting his meds. When he has, he'll follow the longer path voluntarily instead of sitting there refusing to follow. Talking a difference between 1 mile (short hike) to around 2-2.5 miles, so about twice as far. How is that MY imagination?


It's your imagination that it's to do with what your MIL is giving him, versus any of hundreds of other possible explanations.

Correlation, causation, and all that. You think you see a trend. It may or may not be there, and it may or may not have any connection to meds.
 
2012-11-28 02:41:55 PM

gweilo8888: ladyfortuna: The dog will not go on long hikes when he's not been getting his meds. When he has, he'll follow the longer path voluntarily instead of sitting there refusing to follow. Talking a difference between 1 mile (short hike) to around 2-2.5 miles, so about twice as far. How is that MY imagination?

It's your imagination that it's to do with what your MIL is giving him, versus any of hundreds of other possible explanations.

Correlation, causation, and all that. You think you see a trend. It may or may not be there, and it may or may not have any connection to meds.



^ THIS ^

For all he knows, he may not even have a dog.
 
2012-11-28 02:53:56 PM

alienated: ThrobblefootSpectre: it's cheap, been used for thousands of years

And thats it in a nutshell- how is there profit in that ? You can grow that plant, yourself, and use it.
I am not saying all of big Pharma is evil, I am sure that there are quite a few involved that really do mean well,
but big Pharma is evil, overall. Marijuana is not some cancer busting drug, regardless of who says that it is. It is however, the best pain reliever out there for arthritis and chronic pain, and as an oil it has proven to help many folks muscular pain, when properly massaged into the skin.
At least, in my experience of about 25 years, give or take 2. You Mileage May Vary
And many plants also help, for other things. Big Pharma came to be from making aspirin, from the bark of a tree. They just made it synthetic. Science is a wonderful thing- it allows us to expand our future and remember how we got here in the fist place.
Those are my thoughts anyhow.


Here's the thing about pot and cancer, chemo wrecks the body and makes most people extremely nauseous. However, anti-nausea drugs kill appetite, causing cancer patients to eat even less, which weakens cancer patients even more, making them even more susceptible to chemo and infections.

Pot is one of the few anti-nauseatives that actually increases appetite (munchies). It also is a pain reviler and has some anti-inflammatory properties, making it even better for cancer patients.

For chronic pain suffers considering that many doctors just prescribe powerful pain-killers like Oxycotin, which is far more addicting than pot. I work at a mental health and addictions hospital and the paitients in our methadone clinics are typically NOT heroin or cocaine users, it's people addicted to pills like Oxycontin.

One caveat is that we don't quite know the correct dosage for pot for cancer and chronic pain patients, but more research needs to be done in this area.

Hippies will run around saying pot is a cure-all for everything, which IMHO harms medical efforts and it IS addictive, like cigarettes, caffeine, and alcohol.
 
2012-11-28 04:29:53 PM

SundaesChild: In other words, the pharmaceutical companies aren't making any money off them, so buy their drugs instead?


ding
 
2012-11-28 04:50:12 PM

whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.


Indeed. I'll bet this ignorant boob doesn't believe in the healing powers of crystals or magnets either. Some people are just a lost cause. Don't worry though. They don't care about healthy living, so they won't be around to bother us for long.

/off to the phrenologist in 26 minutes
//then to the chiropractor
///Obviously, I take my health very seriously
 
2012-11-28 05:10:37 PM

shortymac: Hippies will run around saying pot is a cure-all for everything, which IMHO harms medical efforts and it IS addictive, like cigarettes, caffeine, and alcohol.


Your humble opinion is retarded.
 
2012-11-28 05:39:02 PM

Amos Quito: ^ THIS ^

For all he knows, he may not even have a dog.


He's probably a she. A lady who desires tuna, I believe. (Is that a reference to sexual preferences?) ;-)

And she, it would appear, never claimed to have a dog. Her MIL -- mother-in-law, I presume. Or perhaps midget indian lawyer? Who knows. Anything's possible on Fark -- is the one who has the dog. Which would suggest she seldom sees it, and is basing her opinion solely on occasional visits and meetings.

Unless, that is, she lives with her mother-in-law / midget indian lawyer.
 
2012-11-28 05:40:02 PM

wildcardjack: GriffXX: Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: Glucosamine is not entirely useless.

Ephedra works for weight loss and on asthma, but yeah, it's dangerous.

FYI, in 2010 there was a study that is making people back off on the effectiveness of glucosamine. Like a 'Maybe this isn't as effective as we thought.'

For six months, he and his colleagues gave 250 adults with chronic lower back pain and degenerative osteoarthritis either 2,500 mg daily of glucosamine sulfate or a placebo. At the six-month and one-year marks, there weren't any significant differences among patients in the two groups. Both groups did seem to be helped by the placebo effect, which is common in pain patients, in which people apparently feel better simply because they are receiving treatment.

I hadn't been to the gym in ten days (Thanksgiving and whatnot) and my back was hurting.

I went to the gym and did stretches, lat push downs and pull downs, and ab work, among other things. My back felt pretty good afterwards, and a soak in the spa couldn't have hurt.

I probably need a new bed, but my back is feeling better.


I have favorited you, sir becasue all of your posts make me want to be barefoot and pregnant. I'm serious. I need you to come to my house, repair a leak or something then give me a right proper seeing-to.
 
2012-11-28 05:44:48 PM
Congratulations, wildcardjack. You've pulled. Or gotten a stalker. Maybe both.
 
2012-11-28 06:23:38 PM

Herr Docktor Heinrich Wisenheimer: Glucosamine is not entirely useless.

Ephedra works for weight loss and on asthma, but yeah, it's dangerous.


Ephedra grows wild out here, called Mormon Tea. Makes for a dandy picker-upper. I LOL at the idea The Man can outlaw this wild growing bush spread out over twelve states.

Echinacea. What nonsense. Echinacea truly does work wonders. Note how these (hahaha) "scholarly" articles are written to question the bacterial or viral killing qualities of Purple Coneflower.

Well, there ain't none.

What echinacea does is stimulate the lymphatic system to dramatically increase drainage. Lymph being the body's sewer system and it ... will grab the bad things and drag them out of the body. Echinacea is also an excellent T-cell builder.

But Big Pharma hates this truth so we get bull(cough) hitman articles like this written by James Murdoch's gang of well paid journalistic hitmen.

Oh, you didn't know Jamie-boy is on the Board of GlaxoSmithKline??

Well well well. And the Board of the conglomerate that now owns the Lancet? Well, kiddies you now have the complete picture how Dr. Andrew Wakefield was destroyed in the press.

Sleep easy in your ignorance how the world works.
 
2012-11-28 06:28:56 PM

gweilo8888: Amos Quito: ^ THIS ^

For all he knows, he may not even have a dog.

He's probably a she. A lady who desires tuna, I believe. (Is that a reference to sexual preferences?) ;-)

And she, it would appear, never claimed to have a dog. Her MIL -- mother-in-law, I presume. Or perhaps midget indian lawyer? Who knows. Anything's possible on Fark -- is the one who has the dog. Which would suggest she seldom sees it, and is basing her opinion solely on occasional visits and meetings.

Unless, that is, she lives with her mother-in-law / midget indian lawyer.


I used to live with my inlaws a few years ago, yes. Dog's older now, but I had to take care of him for about a month early this year, so I did directly observe his behavior. I'm honestly surprised you guys are still keeping this going.

Also my user name has nothing to do with tuna fish (though I am female), it's a joke about how shiatty my luck is. I broke a probability coin-flip experiment in a class a few weeks ago, let's just put it that way.
 
2012-11-28 07:28:40 PM

meanmutton: Kevin72: Hit piece. Now go back to your genetically modified wheat, high fructose corn syrup, fluoridated water. And of course pharmaceuticals.

And you go back to denying evolution, or whatever you anti-science types do on the weekend.


GMOs and HFCS are not about science. Or nutrition. It is all about dollars and profit at the cost of health.
 
2012-11-28 07:50:15 PM
Sorry, I used to grow several perfectly legal herbs that were muscle relaxants and sedatives. And boy howdy, that was no placebo effect. Let's hear it for psychoactive alkaloids.
 
2012-11-28 08:02:17 PM
We need a cure! We need a cure!

Why, the only cure is bed rest. Anything I give you would only be a placebo.

Where do we get these placebos?

Maybe there's some in this truck!

i48.tinypic.com

I'm cured! I mean, ouch!
 
2012-11-28 08:12:56 PM

ladyfortuna: I used to live with my inlaws a few years ago, yes. Dog's older now, but I had to take care of him for about a month early this year, so I did directly observe his behavior. I'm honestly surprised you guys are still keeping this going.


The point is, it's utterly nonsensical to suggest that your sample size of one subject, with no control, who is close to unable to communicate with you in any way beyond your human desire to try and project human feelings and emotions on a non-human creature has any meaning whatsoever. It doesn't.

ladyfortuna: Also my user name has nothing to do with tuna fish (though I am female), it's a joke about how shiatty my luck is.


That whooshing sound was my joke flying over your head. It was clearly "fortuna" aka fortune. Sorry about the whole luck thing, though.
 
2012-11-28 08:58:59 PM

ladyfortuna: gweilo8888: Amos Quito: ^ THIS ^

For all he knows, he may not even have a dog.

He's probably a she. A lady who desires tuna, I believe. (Is that a reference to sexual preferences?) ;-)

And she, it would appear, never claimed to have a dog. Her MIL -- mother-in-law, I presume. Or perhaps midget indian lawyer? Who knows. Anything's possible on Fark -- is the one who has the dog. Which would suggest she seldom sees it, and is basing her opinion solely on occasional visits and meetings.

Unless, that is, she lives with her mother-in-law / midget indian lawyer.

I used to live with my inlaws a few years ago, yes. Dog's older now, but I had to take care of him for about a month early this year, so I did directly observe his behavior. I'm honestly surprised you guys are still keeping this going.

Also my user name has nothing to do with tuna fish (though I am female), it's a joke about how shiatty my luck is. I broke a probability coin-flip experiment in a class a few weeks ago, let's just put it that way.



Just friendly, mindless ribbing (at least on my part), no offense intended!

May you your MIL and the dog all have GREAT fortune!

Om!
 
2012-11-28 09:50:22 PM

Headso: meanmutton: there's no such thing as homeopathic medicine.

tell that to the cancer patients that smoke weed to keep food down.


*facepalms*
That isn't homeopathy, it's herbology... can you not.. I mean..

Seriously dude, you don't know the difference?

Try not to call anyone here ignorant, if that's the case... please. We just got through an election cycle, we don't need any more pots calling kettles black.
 
2012-11-28 10:10:00 PM

Jubeebee: fredsnake: marijuana does not need regulation aside from the mexican brown ditch weed, & it has no bad side effects!

I don't know, if the goal is pain relief, I would say being too zonked out to do anything but watch cartoons for a few hours is a pretty severe side effect. It's enjoyable, sure, but it's a lot easier to go about your day on naxopren than cannibis.


If you smoke a very small amount... not really. If you suffer from very high anxiety like I do, all that's needed is a little piece the size of a pea, smoked through a one-hitter, to take the edge off... then it's cleaning/making calls/going to appointments/etc.

For severe pain I'd imagine you'd need a bit more, but it's still a good idea to take what you think you need, divide it in half, use that and W-A-I-T about 15-20 minutes to see if you need more... you rarely have to smoke enough to make you a giggling idiot.

If someone actually does need that, they have my condolences.
 
2012-11-28 10:21:46 PM
I fractured my arm bone where it joins my shoulder, and my doctors gave me Tylenol 3 to stop the pain.

It did absolutely nothing.

Then they moved it up to hydrocodone. The ache went away but I still felt as if someone was trying to hammer a nail into my shoulder.

One day, I used marijuana with a friend... not for the pain relief, but merely to get high. Within about 40 seconds of smoking, the pain in my shoulder utterly disappeared. It was gone. In fact, it was gone to such an extent that I (stupidly, in hindsight) lifted my arm up until it couldn't go any higher and still felt absolutely no pain.

I get that this is just anecdotal, but take my word for it... marijuana is actually a fantastic pain reliever. When it can do what hydrocodone can't and is not nearly as dangerous, that's an effective drug for pain relief.
 
2012-11-28 10:29:28 PM

NotARocketScientist: ladyfortuna: Yeah, because his ability to go on longer hikes is really just in my mind. /shrug

You see what you want to see, because of... wait for this... placebo effect.

In reality, there's probably no change.

When my dog had ligaments in his knees replaced the vet advocated glucosomine and fish oil for his joints. After giving that to him for awhile I decided to try it on my cat. The cat is 16 yrs old and has joints that click with every movement. The clicking is now gone. Presence or absence of a specific noise and/or the rate of that noises occurrence is not a placebo effect.

The problem with some of the studies done on these supplements is that they don't use people suffering from the correct ailments. A study mentioned earlier looked at the effect of glucosomine on people with lower back pain. Since most lower back pain is muscular of course it had no effect. Testing Vitamin C on people who get enough would show that it is useless. Testing it on people with scurvy would not.

I take a number of supplements. When I hear about something that addresses a problem I have, I give it a try. If it doesn't work (~1/3 the time), I drop it as it isn't what I need. I eat almost no fruits and vegetables, so I supplement the vitamins I lack. (Yes, eating the fruits and veggies would be healthier, no I'm not going to do it.) Most recently I started a B complex. It didn't work on what I was trying it for, but it cleared up a number of other issues. I take Vitamin D because even if I was willing to stand outside at noon with my face uncovered for 15 minutes, the sun doesn't rise high enough in the sky to give the proper dose. I take lecithin and niacin for cholesterol as before and after blood tests gave pretty good results on reducing bad cholesterol and boosting good. Everyone's chemistry is different so you have to find what works for you.


That sounds reasonable, well-thought-out and, despite my difference of opinion, I can respect your points.

What are you doing on the internet, much less Fark? Stop thinking, that's not what forums are for!

And remember: anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.
 
2012-11-28 10:39:10 PM

0z79: If you smoke a very small amount... not really. If you suffer from very high anxiety like I do, all that's needed is a little piece the size of a pea, smoked through a one-hitter, to take the edge off... then it's cleaning/making calls/going to appointments/etc.


Not to mention the difference between indica and sativa, not all weed makes you lazy. Plus hungry, happy, sleepy are all better side effects than what you get with the legal drugs.
 
2012-11-28 11:51:48 PM
Wow.

The derp in this thread is strong. Big Pharma Bad. Alt Med which acts exactly like Big Pharma does, but without the regulations forcing them to behave or face consequences, good.
 
2012-11-28 11:56:21 PM

WorkPartyk1d: True I just ctrl fed the article but I see no mention of pot. Never have found a medical study that says it can cause anything more than the munchies if not consumed through smoking.


It can actually cause/increase the chances of a psychotic break in Schizophrenic patients. This has been anecdotal known for decades, but is recently being demonstrated by research coming out of countries where marijuana is legalized. The reason is quite simple: the same endocannabanoid receptors that are involved in schizophrenia are the ones that are stimulated by THC.

Smoking it from a cigarette carries the same cardiovascular and pulmonary risks as a home-rolled tobacco cig.

The problem is that marijuana is lauded as a miracle cure for anything and everything, and that hurts the cause of legalization or even decriminalization. In reality, marijuana is QUITE effective but only for a small cluster of conditions.
 
2012-11-28 11:58:16 PM

BronyMedic: Wow.

The derp in this thread is strong. Big Pharma Bad. Alt Med which acts exactly like Big Pharma does, but without the regulations forcing them to behave or face consequences, good.


I'm going to ignore your anti-weed post and focus on this. What posts are you even talking about? Should no one criticize Big Pharma and should we just flat out deny alternative medicine?
 
2012-11-29 12:21:40 AM

TheJoe03: should we just flat out deny alternative medicine?


pretty much.
 
2012-11-29 12:54:28 AM

TheJoe03: I'm going to ignore your anti-weed post and focus on this. What posts are you even talking about? Should no one criticize Big Pharma and should we just flat out deny alternative medicine?


Anti-weed? Please go educate yourself before you look even more stupid.

You're joking, right? No. Of course not. Anyone who doesn't toe the crap that it's 100% harmless, and totally not a pharmacologically active substance with indications and contraindications is a DARE-worshipping DEA bootlicker to you people.

I'm pro-legalization for recreational use. I believe the medical marijuana movement is complete and total bullshiat that's been hijacked by the recreational side as a way to backdoor legalization, and I believe that it hurts patients who can legitimately benefit from it.
 
2012-11-29 12:56:27 AM

TheJoe03: Should no one criticize Big Pharma


No. Big Pharma DOES deserve to be criticized for it's deceptive, and at times illegal marketing practices. See Vioxx, a dangerous but effective drug who's dangers were downplayed so it could sell more to patients who should have never been taking it in the first place.

TheJoe03: should we just flat out deny alternative medicine?


Yes. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

The Altmed industry plays on the uneducated and gullable, and bilks desperate people out of their money with NO CHANCE of helping them while giving them false hope.
 
2012-11-29 01:04:35 AM

BronyMedic: u're joking, right? No. Of course not. Anyone who doesn't toe the crap that it's 100% harmless


But see my entire problem with your OP was that you were painting everything with such a broad brush and at the same time seemed to have an agenda to discredit weed when it is still (despite the evidence that it trigger underlying schizophrenia in some people, I never disputed that) much safer than the drugs Big Pharma pushes for stuff like increasing appetite, depression, pain relief, anxiety, glaucoma, and even Marinol.

As for the whole medical marijuana thing, you are talking so much out of your ass it's incredible. If it wasn't for that movement we wouldn't have made so much progress towards decriminalization and legalization. It is a back door and it's working, while at the same time allowing the sick to get marijuana. Why do you care that people are smoking for fun when you yourself think it should be legal for recreational uses. Therein lies why I think you have an anti-weed agenda in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
2012-11-29 01:06:14 AM

BronyMedic: No. Big Pharma DOES deserve to be criticized for it's deceptive, and at times illegal marketing practices. See Vioxx, a dangerous but effective drug who's dangers were downplayed so it could sell more to patients who should have never been taking it in the first place.


Yeah, so why did you care that people in here were skeptical of Big Pharma? There are many legitimate complaints.
 
2012-11-29 01:08:13 AM

BronyMedic: Yes. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

The Altmed industry plays on the uneducated and gullable, and bilks desperate people out of their money with NO CHANCE of helping them while giving them false hope.


Maybe alternative medicine wasn't really the best word to use. Whatever you call herbal and natural medicine is what I'm talking about.
 
2012-11-29 01:10:12 AM
Last thing, coffee shops in Holland are a back door way to legalize weed, who cares?
 
2012-11-29 01:12:05 AM

TheJoe03: But see my entire problem with your OP was that you were painting everything with such a broad brush and at the same time seemed to have an agenda to discredit weed when it is still (despite the evidence that it trigger underlying schizophrenia in some people, I never disputed that) much safer than the drugs Big Pharma pushes for stuff like increasing appetite, depression, pain relief, anxiety, glaucoma, and even Marinol.


I never claimed it didn't. My point was that many of the groups which push medicinal marijuana tend to ignore the conditions that it is scientifically proven as effective for - adjunctive therapy in neurogenic pain, intractable n/v in chemotherapy, appetite induction, etc.

The problem is that while it's a very safe drug, it is not as effective as many conditions it's touted for - such as somatic pain, and glaucoma. There are far more effective drugs out there.

Marijuana is NOT 100% safe. There are risks with it's use, just like ANY OTHER biologically active substance. In addition, the route of intake also matters. Smoking it in a cigarette carries the same risks as a home-rolled tobacco cig in terms of pulmonary and cardiac/stroke conditions over long term. Oral ingestion is much safer.

TheJoe03: As for the whole medical marijuana thing, you are talking so much out of your ass it's incredible. If it wasn't for that movement we wouldn't have made so much progress towards decriminalization and legalization. It is a back door and it's working, while at the same time allowing the sick to get marijuana. Why do you care that people are smoking for fun when you yourself think it should be legal for recreational uses. Therein lies why I think you have an anti-weed agenda in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I care about people who shoot themselves in the foot by using a substance they ostensibly want to legalize for the betterment of patients who need it for a legitimate health concern, and then go out and use their "medical marijuana card" to get recreational-use marijuana so they can blaze up and enjoy a nice bit of 420. It hurts the medical marijuana movement more than it helps it.

Look at Arkansas. The recent measure to legalize medicinal marijuana failed primarily in part of the medicinal movement being panted as a lie to push recreational use. Far more people supported medicinal use of it than blanket legalization (which is a joke, by the way.), but because of the way those treating it as a backdoor acted, it could be portrayed as such.

If you want legalization, or even decriminalization - which is going to be far easier than recreational legalization and open sale federally - be open about why you want it. Don't lie, and expect others not to call you out on it, or use it against you. People don't like liars, period.

As for being anti-pot? Dude, I could care less if you want to get high or not. Pot is FAR safer than alcohol. The criminalization of marijuana has it's roots in racism and anti-science, and needs to go away. It's one social wrong that needs to be righted for the good of the United States.
 
2012-11-29 01:16:41 AM

TheJoe03: Yeah, so why did you care that people in here were skeptical of Big Pharma? There are many legitimate complaints.


I never said there wasn't. I'm calling out people who think that Alternative Medicine movements don't practice the exact same way, and get away with it far more because A) They're not Big Pharma and B) Thanks to the Dietary Supplement Health Education Act of 1994, the FDA has NO teeth to regulate them - a measure pushed through by the Alt-Med Industry.

TheJoe03: Whatever you call herbal and natural medicine is what I'm talking about.


NAturopathy and Herbal Medicine are two areas where the Alt Med Movement, and it's quackery, prey heavily on. While there are herbs and "natural remedies" which are demonstrated effective - honey for wound care, for example - much of the things that are touted as "natural cures" are either useless, or rely on the placebo effect.

Worse, you get things like the Gearson Therapy - an "Alternative" cancer therapy which told patients to stop all chemotherapy and radiation, and instead drink mixtures of herbs and enzymes to "digest" the cancer. It was so useless that an NIH study had to be halted after all the Gearson-receiving patients died far, far sooner than expected of their cancer.
 
2012-11-29 01:17:42 AM

BronyMedic: I care about people who shoot themselves in the foot by using a substance they ostensibly want to legalize for the betterment of patients who need it for a legitimate health concern, and then go out and use their "medical marijuana card" to get recreational-use marijuana so they can blaze up and enjoy a nice bit of 420. It hurts the medical marijuana movement more than it helps it.


Haven't seen any evidence it has hurt anything. What has it hurt again? Weed keeps getting more and more legal and you're mad people in California or wherever have lax medical marijuana laws? I think it's great myself, way better than you have it in Tennessee. Not sure why you think it's so bad, more and more states are getting medical marijuana yet you claim stoners are hurting the cause. Whatever.
 
2012-11-29 01:20:22 AM

BronyMedic: If you want legalization, or even decriminalization - which is going to be far easier than recreational legalization and open sale federally - be open about why you want it. Don't lie, and expect others not to call you out on it, or use it against you. People don't like liars, period.


Who's lying? Maybe it's because I live in the Bay Area, but I don't see anyone lying about their intentions with weed. Weed is already decriminalized here and the weed clubs have made weed de facto legal here as well. Were one step away from making the clubs just for everyone over 21, and that wouldn't be the case if we didn't have medical marijuana here since the late 90s.
 
2012-11-29 01:22:17 AM

TheJoe03: Haven't seen any evidence it has hurt anything. What has it hurt again? Weed keeps getting more and more legal and you're mad people in California or wherever have lax medical marijuana laws? I think it's great myself, way better than you have it in Tennessee. Not sure why you think it's so bad, more and more states are getting medical marijuana yet you claim stoners are hurting the cause. Whatever.


I gave you a specific example, the Arkansas Medicinal Legalization Measure on the 2012 ballot, which failed because of the massive, moralistic media campaign which portrayed it as a way to legalize Marijuana for recreational use rather than the betterment of the patients it could benefit.

Who said I was mad at anyone? I'm not. Frankly, I'm happy that states are decriminalizing it, and tossing wastes of time and taxpayer money out of court and jail. I'm trying to figure out why you're making this a personal matter, when it's not.

Stoners ARE hurting the cause in states with heavy conservative voters. Your ridicule, or your disbelief will not change that, it's a fact you can work with, or continue to shoot yourself in the foot with. People are overwhelmingly more willing to support medicinal legalization for legitimate medical uses, or even decriminalization, than they are recreational use in these states.

Again. No one likes liars. And no one likes the causes they lie about. You can either delude yourself into a fantasy, or you can deal with the reality of the situation, and use that reality to your advantage.
 
2012-11-29 01:26:12 AM

BronyMedic: I gave you a specific example, the Arkansas Medicinal Legalization Measure on the 2012 ballot


What the hell do I care happens in a place like Arkansas? I guess Arkansas is against gay marriage because of all those crazy queers! No it's because they're social conservatives, they don't like change and they think weed is bad. Sucks to be them, it's why I'm glad I'm out of the south. Instead of blaming stoners for the situation, blame your region. Plus, conservatives in the West don't give a shiat about weed anyway, the south is just crazy about social issues.
 
2012-11-29 01:29:50 AM

BronyMedic: People are overwhelmingly more willing to support medicinal legalization for legitimate medical uses, or even decriminalization, than they are recreational use in these states.


So that has what to do with the lax medical marijuana laws in California? Other states have strict medical marijuana laws, who's stopping the backwards southern states from doing that?
 
2012-11-29 01:31:55 AM

TheJoe03: What the hell do I care happens in a place like Arkansas? I guess Arkansas is against gay marriage because of all those crazy queers! No it's because they're social conservatives, they don't like change and they think weed is bad. Sucks to be them, it's why I'm glad I'm out of the south. Instead of blaming stoners for the situation, blame your region. Plus, conservatives in the West don't give a shiat about weed anyway, the south is just crazy about social issues.


Congratulations. You've just proven my point. You're just another one of those "I gots mine, fark the rest of ya'll" people who don't really care about "People Suffering" like they claim. Please, don't ever pretend to lecture anyone on "caring about the suffering of others" when you post self-serving tripe like this.

Again. You can either deal with the reality of the situation, or you can ignore it and pretend that your ridicule is going to change anything. It's nice that California has decriminalized it, and made it a de facto legality for recreational use, but federally, that means bunk. Do you know why? People like you continue to give the DEA useless talking points in DC to continue to promote criminalization of it, especially for people who actually need it.

I figured as much when you busted out the "YOU'RE JUST ANTI-POT" bullshiat line a few posts ago when I posted factual information. You're no more interested in legitimate medical uses of weed than any other person who wants it for recreational use, and is willing to cheat the system to get it rather than actually have the balls to come out and fight for what you really stand for.
 
2012-11-29 01:39:09 AM

BronyMedic: Congratulations. You've just proven my point. You're just another one of those "I gots mine, fark the rest of ya'll" people who don't really care about "People Suffering" like they claim. Please, don't ever pretend to lecture anyone on "caring about the suffering of others" when you post self-serving tripe like this.


I don't, I just want weed to be legal. Weed is available no matter what. It's more about southerners not caring about people suffering because of those damn hippies. You're blaming the wrong people. I thought you wanted us to be honest bro, why you mad that I'm stating the point of this whole thing, to legalize marijuana and stop this bogus war on drugs. It's working, we have more and more states decriminalizing weed and more states with medical marijuana. You talk about Arkansas (really dude?) but don't bring up the fact that almost half the states now have either medical marijuana or decriminalized weed. Oh boy, us stoners are really holding the movement back! LOL.

Plus I don't have the balls to stand what I stand for? What? I just said weed should be legal and no one here in California is acting like that's not the goal. You really don't know the deal because you live in a shiatty state that has bad laws. Funny you blame people like me instead of the fascist morons in your own state.
 
2012-11-29 01:40:49 AM
Also, like you said, people like medical marijuana more than outright legalization. That's the point, it's a baby step in the right direction, and in the case of the Colorado and Washington it led to outright legalization.
 
2012-11-29 01:46:07 AM

TheJoe03: I don't, I just want weed to be legal.


That's nice. It's still a federal crime to possess and sell any quantity. The feds can still come down on you, despite what your state says about the de-facto legality of it. And FSM-help you if they catch you transporting it interstate.

TheJoe03: Weed is available no matter what.


And you don't care about the fact that someone with a dime bag gets treated the same as someone who raped a 12 year old girl in the eyes of the police? Or that your tax dollars are wasted on these people?

TheJoe03: It's more about southerners not caring about people suffering because of those damn hippies.


Uh no. It narrowly failed because of a smear campaign by one of the state's largest anti-drug groups. A campaign which took advantage of your exact mentality.

TheJoe03: You talk about Arkansas (really dude?) but don't bring up the fact that almost half the states now have either medical marijuana or decriminalized weed.


18 states have, actually. Not 25. You do know that is half of 50, right? Arkansas would have been the first southern state to legalize for medicinal use, and it would have spurred Tennessee and Mississippi to do the same.

TheJoe03: Oh boy, us stoners are really holding the movement back! LOL.


Remember what I said about ridicule versus reality?

TheJoe03: Plus I don't have the balls to stand what I stand for? What? I just said weed should be legal and no one here in California is acting like that's not the goal. You really don't know the deal because you live in a shiatty state that has bad laws. Funny you blame people like me instead of the fascist morons in your own state.


Translation:I gots' mine, fark anyone else.
 
2012-11-29 01:47:40 AM

TheJoe03: Also, like you said, people like medical marijuana more than outright legalization. That's the point, it's a baby step in the right direction, and in the case of the Colorado and Washington it led to outright legalization.


And they tend to turn against it when the medical marijuana movement is portrayed as just a bunch of stoners who want to take advantage of the system.

And it didn't lead to outright legalization. It lead to decriminalization. There's a difference. Complete Legalization would require federal legislation as well as the approval of the FDA to sell as a nutritional or dietary substance.
 
2012-11-29 01:52:52 AM

BostonEMT: If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form),


You do know that pure oxygen IS a drug, right? And that giving pure oxygen can cause REAL HARM in patients who it's not indicated in, right?

BostonEMT: , then lets not forget that CHEERIOS was threatened by the FDA because they help lower cholesterol...


They were threatened by the FDA for making unproven claims about their product which brought it out of the realm of a food, and into the realm of a medical claim of treating a disease or condition.

BostonEMT: the FDA is a joke and a sham. just like 1/2 of the other federal agencies...


I don't know about you, but we went over this the first week of EMT-Basic class. There's a reason the FDA exists.
 
2012-11-29 01:54:17 AM

BronyMedic: That's nice. It's still a federal crime to possess and sell any quantity. The feds can still come down on you, despite what your state says about the de-facto legality of it. And FSM-help you if they catch you transporting it interstate.


Yeah I know, it's disgusting, but the Feds have their own reasons that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. It's called the drug war, and it's very corrupt.

BronyMedic: And you don't care about the fact that someone with a dime bag gets treated the same as someone who raped a 12 year old girl in the eyes of the police? Or that your tax dollars are wasted on these people?


I do, I do a lot, and I find it strange you blames stoners in California (and other states like it) for ignorant laws in your backyard. It's a regional issue, like gay marriage, blame your own state and people for it's bad laws.

BronyMedic: Uh no. It narrowly failed because of a smear campaign by one of the state's largest anti-drug groups. A campaign which took advantage of your exact mentality.


Sucks how gullible Arkansas is, other states didn't seem to have that problem, weird isn't it?

BronyMedic: 18 states have, actually. Not 25. You do know that is half of 50, right? Arkansas would have been the first southern state to legalize for medicinal use, and it would have spurred Tennessee and Mississippi to do the same.


Did you miss the word decriminalized?

BronyMedic: Remember what I said about ridicule versus reality?


Not really, it wasn't relevant.

TheJoe03: Plus I don't have the balls to stand what I stand for? What? I just said weed should be legal and no one here in California is acting like that's not the goal. You really don't know the deal because you live in a shiatty state that has bad laws. Funny you blame people like me instead of the fascist morons in your own state.

Translation:I gots' mine, fark anyone else.


Yup, sucks to live in a redneck shiat state. 

But yeah, it's totally not obvious you have some kind of anti-weed agenda. Weird thing to be mad about. THOSE STONERS! ARG!
 
2012-11-29 01:56:02 AM

BostonEMT: If we're going to get technical here, the FDA considers OXYGEN a drug and regulates it (in its pure form)


There's a reason oxygen is treated like a drug.

archinte.jamanetwork.com
 
2012-11-29 01:56:13 AM

BronyMedic: And it didn't lead to outright legalization. It lead to decriminalization. There's a difference. Complete Legalization would require federal legislation as well as the approval of the FDA to sell as a nutritional or dietary substance.


Great job being technically correct, but that's an obtuse way to look at it. Good night man, you ain't changing my mind.
 
2012-11-29 01:59:09 AM

BronyMedic: So because I disagree with you, I'm anti-weed.


Way to ignore all my other points for some throw away comment at the end. Peace.
 
2012-11-29 02:00:47 AM
Plus My Little Pony, really dude?
 
2012-11-29 02:00:53 AM

TheJoe03: Way to ignore all my other points for some throw away comment at the end. Peace.


Really, you never said this?

TheJoe03: But yeah, it's totally not obvious you have some kind of anti-weed agenda. Weird thing to be mad about. THOSE STONERS! ARG!


I honestly don't care about all your other talking points. This is the mentality you have. Anyone who disagrees with you is "secretly anti-weed".

Peace.
 
2012-11-29 02:01:54 AM

BronyMedic: I honestly don't care about all your other talking points. This is the mentality you have. Anyone who disagrees with you is "secretly anti-weed".


Not anti-weed per se, but some agenda against weed smokers in some way. Just my opinion.
 
2012-11-29 02:04:35 AM

TheJoe03: Not anti-weed per se, but some agenda against weed smokers in some way. Just my opinion.


Wow. That's some cognitive dissonance there. Because I disagree with your methods and mentality, I'm a secret anti-weed ninja who has a problem with weed smokers.

If that's how you rationalize someone disagreeing with you, or taking issue with your questionable approach of "lying about things", then so be it.

TheJoe03: Plus My Little Pony, really dude?


So because I disagree with you, you decide to threadjack and make personal attacks based on my choice of entertainment on Saturday mornings?

Wow, man. Really mature.
 
2012-11-29 02:07:31 AM

BronyMedic: So because I disagree with you, you decide to threadjack and make personal attacks based on my choice of entertainment on Saturday mornings?


Sure, why not? It's not like you actually addressed my points, so why not insult you for liking a TV show?
 
2012-11-29 02:08:57 AM

BronyMedic: Because I disagree with your methods and mentality, I'm a secret anti-weed ninja who has a problem with weed smokers.


Nah, you just don't see your bias. I admit my bias freely but you have been railing against stoners for a bit now and deny your bias. Brony.
 
2012-11-29 02:56:47 AM

TheJoe03: ure, why not? It's not like you actually addressed my points, so why not insult you for liking a TV show?


I actually did address your points. They ended up revealing your mentality. They also ended up revealing your utter paranoia when it comes to people who disagree with you. I half expected you to ask me if I was a member of the communist party next.

TheJoe03: Nah, you just don't see your bias. I admit my bias freely but you have been railing against stoners for a bit now and deny your bias. Brony.


Please. Point out my bias. At what point have I said that someone being a stoner made them a bad person, or made them any worse than someone who recreationally uses alcohol, or cigarettes. (Actually, I do have a bias against cigarette smokers, but that's because I don't like 500 million dollars of federal tax money and state Medicaid per year going to pay for their hospitalization and nursing home stays because of COPD and Cardiovascular consequences that are completely preventable.)

The fact of the matter is, you have demonstrated that you rationalize people who disagree with you on this topic by painting them as anti-you because you smoke pot. I'm not biased against you for smoking pot. I'm biased against you because you advocate blatantly lying to people as long as it achieves your means.
 
2012-11-29 03:01:21 AM

BronyMedic: I actually did address your points.


You actually didn't, you made a point of saying it didn't matter because I said something about you being anti-weed. You blatantly ignored my points because that one thing I said bugged you so much (go back a bit, that's what you said). Plus, you just made a whole conspiracy about how I'm paranoid. You also made this whole conspiracy about what my beliefs are. What am I paranoid about and what am I lying about? Something else you never explained.
 
2012-11-29 03:04:26 AM
Have the last word, I don't really care, whatever you post will just be the same skewed view and denial. You still failed to prove how stoners have hurt the medical marijuana and legalization movement when it keeps making progress. What reality do you live in that medical marijuana is losing ground? Arkansas? Ha ha, charade you are.
 
2012-11-29 03:19:17 AM
You two need to get a room. Smoke some weed and chill out.
 
2012-11-29 03:24:57 AM

TheJoe03: You actually didn't, you made a point of saying it didn't matter because I said something about you being anti-weed. You blatantly ignored my points because that one thing I said bugged you so much (go back a bit, that's what you said). Plus, you just made a whole conspiracy about how I'm paranoid. You also made this whole conspiracy about what my beliefs are. What am I paranoid about and what am I lying about? Something else you never explained.


Joe, you never said this?

TheJoe03: Nah, you just don't see your bias. I admit my bias freely but you have been railing against stoners for a bit now and deny your bias. Brony.


TheJoe03: Not anti-weed per se, but some agenda against weed smokers in some way. Just my opinion.


TheJoe03: But yeah, it's totally not obvious you have some kind of anti-weed agenda. Weird thing to be mad about. THOSE STONERS! ARG!


TheJoe03: Therein lies why I think you have an anti-weed agenda in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong.


The first time you replied to me was the funniest part of it. You latched onto the fact that I posted something that was critical of what you have claimed in this thread, namely that weed is "harmless", and then proceeded to call it a lie, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

TheJoe03: I'm going to ignore your anti-weed post and focus on this.


When I corrected you, you began to accuse me of being anti-weed, then having a "secret anti-weed agenda", then "having a bias against stoners" as I progressively pointed out the issues, complete with a link to the current legalization advocates in my area, and then, instead of admitting that yes, some parts of the country DO have a legitimate problem with "stoners", as you put them, using the medicinal movement for legalization, you then proceeded into an utter non-sequitorial diatribe about how you really don't care about the rest of the nation, because you live in California, so it really doesn't matter to you.

Nothing I have accused you of in the past few posts have been based on "assumptions", nor is it a "conspiracy" I've accused you of creating. These are your own words. You've repeatedly accused me of pushing an anti-marijuana agenda, Considering every comment I've made in a marijuana thread I've commented on FARK about has either been about legalization/decriminalization, how deregulation of Marijuana at a federal level will be far easier than overt legalization, or at how Marijuana does have side effects, I'm desparately trying to figure out how you think I have an "agenda or bias" against "stoners", as you put it.

TheJoe03: What am I paranoid about and what am I lying about?


Unless you have a severe reading comprehension problem, I've pointed out my problem with the use of the medicinal marijuana movement by those wanting recreational legalization is that not only are they cheating a system meant to help patients with legitimate medical issues, but that they are blatantly lying about why they want legalization while using the suffering of patients to do so. I've done this over multiple posts. You've continually ignored the ethical and moral ramifications of that, and continued on a diatribe.

You were the one that presumed to lecture me on compassion in one post, and then in the next claim that you really don't care anyway, because your state has decriminalized it - others don't matter.

TheJoe03: Have the last word, I don't really care, whatever you post will just be the same skewed view and denial.


It's not about having a last word. It's about watching you dig a hole deeper and deeper with that shovel.

TheJoe03: You still failed to prove how stoners have hurt the medical marijuana and legalization movement when it keeps making progress.


If by failed to prove, you mean you basically ignored the link I put up to the Marijuana Policy Project which goes into detail. including a federal lawsuit against the main anti-drug group in Arkansas who defeated the medicinal marijuana measure by using the exact same mentality you seem to promote as "working". Again, 18 states have "decriminalized", two states have local decriminalization, and two others have legalized, but it remains illegal on a federal level, which poses a problem because federal officials, were they so inclined by a shift in political climate, could encourage the re-criminalization of it by simply threatening to withhold federal funds from those states.

TheJoe03: Arkansas? Ha ha, charade you are.


people.virginia.edu
 
2012-11-29 03:27:44 AM
i391.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-29 03:27:49 AM
I'm not gonna read all that text man, and I doubt if I did it would change anything.
 
2012-11-29 03:29:33 AM

TheJoe03: I'm not gonna read all that text man, and I doubt if I did it would change anything.


That's nice. I'll sum it up for you.

You're a liar, and a troll. Have a nice night.
 
2012-11-29 03:30:27 AM

ladyfortuna: [i391.photobucket.com image 624x317]


Word. It seems that this weed I just smoked made me more peaceful and less likely to further partake in this discussion that has now gotten heated.
 
2012-11-29 03:31:04 AM

BronyMedic: You're a liar, and a troll. Have a nice night.


Wow, that's a bit much.
 
2012-11-29 05:41:41 AM
BronyMedic, I commend you for your patience, frankly I would have given up long before you did. You made a clear, concise, and very correct argument that fell on what seems to be completely deaf ears. ANYTHING potent enough to have an effect on the human body is a risk/reward calculation. It helps in some ways and hurts in other, only when you have ALL the information can you make a proper decision. This goes for medical marijuana, or traditional pharmaceuticals. And intentionally misleading to get your way is unethical, the ends do NOT justify the means.

Do not just take supplements, you are only wasting your money. If you have a SPECIFIC deficiency in something, which you will probably only know by getting a blood test, then yes take something as your doctor will tell you to. SPECIFIC supplements to address SPECIFIC and documented problems is the only legitimate use of supplements. For example, Vitamin D deficiency is rather common here in Norway in the winter, but even then you should get tested so you can properly dose yourself.

Multi-vitamins are a waste of money, they do nothing for your health. If you aren't eating a healthy diet then taking one will not improve your health, and if you are eating a healthy diet then you have no reason to take one.

Most herbal supplements are utterly useless, in that they have no documented effect at all. Even with the few herbs that have a documented effect, due to the completely unregulated industry you have NO IDEA what you are buying. Does the herb contain enough of the actual herb to even have that documented effect? What is a proper dose when the concentration of active ingredients is unknown and varies wildly? How much are you supposed to take? Why?

I've never met someone that supports Alt-Med that understands just how rigorous and precise REAL medicine needs to be to be consistently effective. Now, even with all these controls in place traditional medicine often fails to maintain rigor, how reliable do you think a completely unregulated and untested industry is?

/Girlfriend runs a pharmacy
//Epidemiology nerd
 
2012-11-29 09:16:20 AM
No, the pharmacuetical companies are not forcing us to use products that are potentially bad just to make money.
Only evil OIL companies are like that.
 
2012-11-29 11:07:57 AM

BronyMedic: The first time you replied to me was the funniest part of it. You latched onto the fact that I posted something that was critical of what you have claimed in this thread, namely that weed is "harmless", and then proceeded to call it a lie, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.


Just STFU already. It is essentially harmless. You are more likely to be harmed by ingesting water. Your concerns over the effects on schizophrenics and the effects of smoking versus eating/vaping have been noted.

Jesus, talk about mountains out of molehills. Now get back to banging your sister or whatever you guys do for fun since the eeeebil weed is too dangerous.
 
2012-11-29 12:44:28 PM

umad: BronyMedic: The first time you replied to me was the funniest part of it. You latched onto the fact that I posted something that was critical of what you have claimed in this thread, namely that weed is "harmless", and then proceeded to call it a lie, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

Just STFU already. It is essentially harmless. You are more likely to be harmed by ingesting water. Your concerns over the effects on schizophrenics and the effects of smoking versus eating/vaping have been noted.

Jesus, talk about mountains out of molehills. Now get back to banging your sister or whatever you guys do for fun since the eeeebil weed is too dangerous.


Uh, I don't have a sister. And it's not a "mountain from a molehill", as psychotic breaks in these patients can be highly damaging to that person, their family, and their continued treatment.

Kinda like if you have a heart condition, you probibly don't want to toke up. Eat a brownie.

It's a legitimate side effect issue. Just like anxiety (20-30% of users), hypertension (cigarette use), tachycardia, and refractory emesis are in certain users. Not everyone responds to anything the same as you. And not everyone uses it to get high. Some patients use it for nausea and appetite, but don't want the high.

And weed's awesome. Hardly eeebil. But its got short and long term side effects that are legitimate and well documented scientifically. Anyone who says otherwise is either a delusional idiot who believes in magic, or purposefully obtuse to promote some agenda.
 
2012-11-29 01:29:28 PM

BronyMedic: but it remains illegal on a federal level


I don't think that can last much longer the way things are going... When you have most states legalizing it, I think the Feds are going to have to cave and reschedule at least... When the majority of the country is telling them they're wrong, they'd be fools to continue on down the same path, or worse to start attacking them all... It's clear the old propaganda that has propped up the drug war all these years isn't cutting it anymore, so unless they can find a new approach to turn everyone back against weed again, they really have no choice but to eventually drop the nonsense and just let it be legal... And, given the current economy, I think this is the ideal time to sell the idea to those remaining anti-pot people by painting it as a boon to the economy (which it would be, were it to be fully legalized and regulated a la alcohol and tobacco)! So, I kind of hope Obama tries to push something like this in his second term... (I know, I know, "most anti-pot president EVAR!"... I don't buy it for a second... He was just playing the part he needed to in order to keep from being called soft on crime or whatever... He no longer needs to worry about reelection, though...)

/Don't use it personally, but as a heavy drinker and cigar/pipe smoker, I certainly recognize it's a lot safer and better for you than either of those legal vices...
 
2012-11-29 02:01:00 PM
Still not sure what I lied about or how I was trolling, Brony has thin skin.
 
2012-11-29 02:46:32 PM

TheJoe03: Still not sure what I lied about or how I was trolling, Brony has thin skin.


I quoted where, and gave a rather long response why you're being callec a liar and a troll, after you decided to pull mental gymnastics to try to label me as "anti-pot". Your response?

TheJoe03: I'm not gonna read all that text man, and I doubt if I did it would change anything.


As for thin skin? You vastly overestimate your ability to even raise any level of anger in me. You've acted like a fool, and blatantly ignored anything which disproved your hypocritical statements, and display a blatant persecution complex.

Stop farkin that chicken, man. Poor things got no feathers left.
 
2012-11-29 03:08:17 PM
BronyMedic



Dude, calm down. You're obviously taking this all waaaay too seriously.
 
2012-11-29 03:47:40 PM

Lehk: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

Homeopathic is crap, you know that right?


Actually, no, I don't know that.

Neither do you.
 
2012-11-29 05:29:23 PM

whidbey: Lehk: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

Homeopathic is crap, you know that right?

Actually, no, I don't know that.

Neither do you.


But I do
 
2012-11-29 09:08:08 PM

whidbey: Lehk: whidbey: Wow another right-wing "expert" utterly dismissing homeopathic medicine.

How novel.

Homeopathic is crap, you know that right?

Actually, no, I don't know that.

Neither do you.


You don't know that because either you dropped out of high school, or you've squeezed your eyes shut and stuck your fingers in your ears. Physics would have to go out the window. Ditto chemistry, materials science, pharmacology, physiology, etc., etc. if homeopathy were anything other than bullshiat. There's too much evidence suggesting the vast majority of what we currently know about science should be kept. There's too little suggesting homeopathy is worth keeping. It isn't a political issue. If it were legal, I'd go hunting Republicans.
 
2012-11-30 03:51:58 AM

doubled99: Dude, calm down. You're obviously taking this all waaaay too seriously.


For real.
 
2012-11-30 03:54:12 AM

BronyMedic: Your response?


You obviously have an anti-stoner agenda that you refuse to admit. I did read your response and it seemed you had no idea what I my point was, you just wanted to keep blaming stoners for holding back medical marijuana despite that fact that it's a growing movement outside of shiatholes like Arkansas.
 
2012-11-30 04:16:40 AM

BronyMedic: you decided to pull mental gymnastics to try to label me as "anti-pot".


It's not mental gymnastics, you are literally blaming people in states with lax medical marijuana laws for Arkansas not passing a law that was surprising to have even gotten enough signatures to be on the ballot there. Where the hell was the weed movement before CA passed the medical marijuana law here? In a bad place, and now we are getting to a point where we can legitimately challenge the BS system we have now. Yet you blame the people behind such a successful movement for having a trojan horse. You said I lied about this backdoor method while I actually said that was the point, confirming your point. It's not a lie, it is a fact and the marijuana movement is as strong as it has ever been and using medical marijuana (like the gay rights movement pushed civil unions through the states to set a precedent). You point out Arkansas (a very socially conservative state) as a negative (confirming your agenda) while ignoring the fact that more and more states have started to decriminalize, allow for medical marijuana, and after the 2012 elections we have 2 states locally legalizing it. I fail to see how this movement is being impeded. I'm not trolling because this is how I feel and I'm not lying because what did I actually lie about? Weed in any form should be legal, medical, decriminalized, or legalized, and I support all methods.
 
2012-11-30 04:28:29 AM
Last thing for real, I'm sorry for going after you personally with the Brony thing, I actually did want to have a thought provoking discussion with you (plus I like Family Guy and American Dad, you can make fun of me for that, I've never seen MLP so I was just joking anyway). Honesty, I did smoke some weed when this went sour and really did feel bad and thought I could have been nicer. I think I have legitimate points and you did as well before you got pissed. There's a reason I immediately agreed that weed has been linked to schizophrenia and is not "perfect". Nothing is. Anyways, sorry for any disrespect, I didn't mean to offend you, I just wanted to defend my position and my own pro-weed agenda.
 
2012-11-30 08:42:47 AM

TheJoe03: BronyMedic: you decided to pull mental gymnastics to try to label me as "anti-pot".

It's not mental gymnastics, you are literally blaming people in states with lax medical marijuana laws for Arkansas not passing a law that was surprising to have even gotten enough signatures to be on the ballot there.


You both have a point, really... The fact that people are actually abusing the system just to smoke recreationally does give ammo to those who want to keep it illegal in more conservative areas... But, at the same time, it's not the fault of the liberal areas that people in the other areas are so damned conservative, either... And, it's not their fault that the people in those areas let their irrational hatred of the idea of stoners abusing the system overshadow the desire to help patients who would benefit from medical use of the drug... The ones in those areas are the ones actually denying help to sick people, even if the excuse they use to justify doing so is to point at the people from other areas getting high recreationally (and ignoring all the actual sick people also getting treated)... If there were no such abuse anywhere, would it be harder to demonize in such areas? Sure... But, that probably wouldn't stop them from still claiming it would happen, or even lying about it happening elsewhere in spite of no evidence to support such claims... And, such lies would likely be just as effective as the truth with the sort of people inclined to give a shiat about such a silly thing in the first place... So, I doubt the outcome would really be much different, anyway...

But, there's no need for name-calling on either side... Brony clearly isn't anti-pot or even anti-stoner... He just wishes people wouldn't abuse the medical marijuana system purely for recreational use, and thinks it hurts the chance of it ever being legalized in more conservative areas... That's a perfectly reasonable stance (even though I don't think he's totally right about how much impact is has in reality, as I said)... And, Joe clearly isn't a troll or a liar (that I've seen)... He was just arguing that it seems wrong to hold people in one area responsible for how people vote in some other area, which is also perfectly reasonable... Just because they justify their votes by pointing at those first people doesn't make them actually responsible... It's still the other people who actually voted...

So, kiss and makeup, you two!

stickerish.com
 
2012-11-30 10:46:01 AM

RobSeace: TheJoe03: BronyMedic: you decided to pull mental gymnastics to try to label me as "anti-pot".

It's not mental gymnastics, you are literally blaming people in states with lax medical marijuana laws for Arkansas not passing a law that was surprising to have even gotten enough signatures to be on the ballot there.

You both have a point, really... The fact that people are actually abusing the system just to smoke recreationally does give ammo to those who want to keep it illegal in more conservative areas... But, at the same time, it's not the fault of the liberal areas that people in the other areas are so damned conservative, either... And, it's not their fault that the people in those areas let their irrational hatred of the idea of stoners abusing the system overshadow the desire to help patients who would benefit from medical use of the drug... The ones in those areas are the ones actually denying help to sick people, even if the excuse they use to justify doing so is to point at the people from other areas getting high recreationally (and ignoring all the actual sick people also getting treated)... If there were no such abuse anywhere, would it be harder to demonize in such areas? Sure... But, that probably wouldn't stop them from still claiming it would happen, or even lying about it happening elsewhere in spite of no evidence to support such claims... And, such lies would likely be just as effective as the truth with the sort of people inclined to give a shiat about such a silly thing in the first place... So, I doubt the outcome would really be much different, anyway...

But, there's no need for name-calling on either side... Brony clearly isn't anti-pot or even anti-stoner... He just wishes people wouldn't abuse the medical marijuana system purely for recreational use, and thinks it hurts the chance of it ever being legalized in more conservative areas... That's a perfectly reasonable stance (even though I don't think he's totally right about how ...


THANK YOU.

Since I'm one of those that smoking makes vomit, let's share a brownie, Joe.
 
2012-11-30 05:28:55 PM

BronyMedic: Since I'm one of those that smoking makes vomit, let's share a brownie, Joe.


Great, I know a place that sells some great brownies! ; )
 
2012-11-30 06:22:55 PM

TheJoe03: BronyMedic: Since I'm one of those that smoking makes vomit, let's share a brownie, Joe.

Great, I know a place that sells some great brownies! ; )


They should send my ass over to the middle east, and I'd have those farkers working together in no time!
 
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