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(Hot Air)   Since 2006 Virginia has had a 73% increase in guns sales and the violent crime rate exploded...Wait. Sorry... I mean dropped 27% and gun violence down 26% and over all crime down. So Brady Campaign lets ban guns to make things safer   (hotair.com) divider line 221
    More: Interesting, Brady Campaign, Richmond Times-Dispatch, population growths, vcu, negative relationship, Ice T  
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1349 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Nov 2012 at 11:51 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-28 12:39:47 AM

President Merkin Muffley: I'll bite. What are the populations of each town and the crimes as a percentage of those populations.


About the same. But that's far from the whole story. I'm looking at finding demographic information about the cities. Nothing like taking a break from data mining to data mine.
 
2012-11-28 12:41:55 AM
Jesus Christ - I actually used to sort of like guns a little bit before I started hanging out here. Now, I'm constantly reminded that most of you compulsively masturbate over your Cabela's catalog, using bore oil for lube, and frankly I'm so disgusted that I'm finally ready to ban the goddamn things.
 
2012-11-28 12:42:38 AM

Lusiphur: Nothing like taking a break from data mining to data mine.


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-11-28 12:46:52 AM
The original reason for the gun purchase limitation in VA wasn't to reduce gun crime... in Virginia. It was to prevent straw purchases of handguns from ending up in NYC in the late '80s early '90s.
 
2012-11-28 12:47:17 AM

I HATE LIBS: Wanna see a liberal's head explode? Let illegal immigrants own guns.


Most illegal immigrants DO own guns.
 
2012-11-28 12:47:29 AM
I like my guns. I think the anti-gun folks skewers the holy fark out of their numbers all the time. I also think that more gun laws is going to do nothing to prevent violent deaths. People either acquire guns illegally, or they use other weapons...

That said, until they show a statistic of how many people used their gun to prevent a crime, I'm not buying it. I can guarantee you that any researcher worth his pay can find 10 other things that correlate just as well. This is incomplete data, and as a result just as skewed as I just accused the anti-gun people of being. Not that I'm surprised, mind you.

Get better data and get back to me.
 
2012-11-28 12:49:47 AM

Ishkur: Crime is a distinct metric dependent upon a number of factors, the most important being demographics (crime is predominantly caused by 18-24 males), culture, disparity of affluence, and simply reporting crime. But there is no correlation between firearms and crime.


Here in Hong Kong....
Nearly 7 million people, packed tightly together. Extremely stressful working environment.
And no guns.
We had 12 homicides last year.
Correlate that, gun-nuts.

/gun owner..when in the States...because Americans are crazy.
 
2012-11-28 12:55:06 AM
Could someone translate that headline into English?
 
2012-11-28 12:56:17 AM

themindiswatching: dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

How do they even enforce something like that?


Not sure how they enforce it, but years ago I knew a girl from Georgia, and she was the first one who told me about it. The idea is there is no police force in the town, and the nearest Sheriff was 1/2 an hour away. It does have an interesting ring to it from a crime prevention standpoint, but I would assume that the only enforcement would be that if something happened, and you weren't able to defend yourself, at least part of the blame would be on you. I would also guess that when the Sheriff was building a case, he might just ask to see your mandated gun for the records.

I just want to know if you get a discount since the gun is 'required'. Maybe I can move there for 6 months or so and buy the other guns in want...
 
2012-11-28 12:57:25 AM

Lusiphur: President Merkin Muffley: I'll bite. What are the populations of each town and the crimes as a percentage of those populations.

About the same. But that's far from the whole story. I'm looking at finding demographic information about the cities. Nothing like taking a break from data mining to data mine.


I kinda have a Fark crush on you.
 
2012-11-28 01:01:16 AM

Fart_Machine: CanuckInCA: sno man:Up here in Canuckistan where we are a bit more, ahem, conservative about gun ownership crime rates are going down too.

/a curious aside: there were 552 murders in all of Canada in 2010. There were just less than half that in L.A. (one tenthish the population) and/or also in New Orleans (one 100thish)

I think the murder rates in cities like LA or New Orleans might be the result of slightly more complex factors than access to guns. Last I checked Canadian gangs have no problems getting them and shooting them off in public.

/lives in LA
//still alive, dodging bullets on my way to work.

Apparently they moved out of the city and into the surrounding areas.


Yeah, Phoenix was fun. Gunshots every night, usually multiple times throughout the evening. It's pretty bad when the only times you react are when they sound like they're in your front yard(which they sometimes were). I moved here to Utah, the first state to do this stupid 'state gun' thing, and in 6 years, I've heard gunshots twice, maybe 3 times, yet people here really love their guns.

/So glad I got the fark out of Phoenix, LA would make me lose my mind
 
2012-11-28 01:05:37 AM

Mikey1969: Fart_Machine: CanuckInCA: sno man:Up here in Canuckistan where we are a bit more, ahem, conservative about gun ownership crime rates are going down too.

/a curious aside: there were 552 murders in all of Canada in 2010. There were just less than half that in L.A. (one tenthish the population) and/or also in New Orleans (one 100thish)

I think the murder rates in cities like LA or New Orleans might be the result of slightly more complex factors than access to guns. Last I checked Canadian gangs have no problems getting them and shooting them off in public.

/lives in LA
//still alive, dodging bullets on my way to work.

Apparently they moved out of the city and into the surrounding areas.

Yeah, Phoenix was fun. Gunshots every night, usually multiple times throughout the evening. It's pretty bad when the only times you react are when they sound like they're in your front yard(which they sometimes were). I moved here to Utah, the first state to do this stupid 'state gun' thing, and in 6 years, I've heard gunshots twice, maybe 3 times, yet people here really love their guns.

/So glad I got the fark out of Phoenix, LA would make me lose my mind


I've lived in Los Angeles and Orange County for decades and never heard a single gunshot.

I knew a guy who lived right in the heart of Inglewood and the only time he heard shots was during the riots. I heard more gunfire when I lived in rural Nevada.
 
2012-11-28 01:06:06 AM

themindiswatching: dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

How do they even enforce something like that?


I have three friends that live there. Only one has a gun because he sells drugs.
 
2012-11-28 01:06:07 AM

0Icky0: Ishkur: Crime is a distinct metric dependent upon a number of factors, the most important being demographics (crime is predominantly caused by 18-24 males), culture, disparity of affluence, and simply reporting crime. But there is no correlation between firearms and crime.

Here in Hong Kong....
Nearly 7 million people, packed tightly together. Extremely stressful working environment.
And no guns.
We had 12 homicides last year.
Correlate that, gun-nuts.

/gun owner..when in the States...because Americans are crazy.


Big deal, look at the rash of school attacks in China and couple of years ago, something like 38 kids murdered, no guns at all. All knives and one sword, I believe.

The point is that freaks will murder people using any weapon. Take away guns, they move to blades.
 
2012-11-28 01:06:40 AM

Biological Ali: Could someone translate that headline into English?


Pricipal . Caught sayof virginia that has stoped Gunsales " See, told ya so" Is People dead or not. Libs Says yes. Brady Campaign Looking for ban -OR- "hello, I am write single to gun violence and wait for answer again"
 
2012-11-28 01:06:45 AM

Gyrfalcon: I HATE LIBS: Wanna see a liberal's head explode? Let illegal immigrants own guns.

Most illegal immigrants DO own guns.


Illegally, might I add
 
2012-11-28 01:13:00 AM

Gyrfalcon: I've lived in Los Angeles and Orange County for decades and never heard a single gunshot.

I knew a guy who lived right in the heart of Inglewood and the only time he heard shots was during the riots. I heard more gunfire when I lived in rural Nevada.


Really? When I lived in the Valley in the late 80's, I'd hear gunshots two or three times a month. When I lived in Hollywood, it was two or three times a week. Here in Seattle, I hear gunshots two or three times a year.
 
2012-11-28 01:16:50 AM

Gyrfalcon: Mikey1969: Fart_Machine: CanuckInCA: sno man:Up here in Canuckistan where we are a bit more, ahem, conservative about gun ownership crime rates are going down too.

/a curious aside: there were 552 murders in all of Canada in 2010. There were just less than half that in L.A. (one tenthish the population) and/or also in New Orleans (one 100thish)

I think the murder rates in cities like LA or New Orleans might be the result of slightly more complex factors than access to guns. Last I checked Canadian gangs have no problems getting them and shooting them off in public.

/lives in LA
//still alive, dodging bullets on my way to work.

Apparently they moved out of the city and into the surrounding areas.

Yeah, Phoenix was fun. Gunshots every night, usually multiple times throughout the evening. It's pretty bad when the only times you react are when they sound like they're in your front yard(which they sometimes were). I moved here to Utah, the first state to do this stupid 'state gun' thing, and in 6 years, I've heard gunshots twice, maybe 3 times, yet people here really love their guns.

/So glad I got the fark out of Phoenix, LA would make me lose my mind

I've lived in Los Angeles and Orange County for decades and never heard a single gunshot.

I knew a guy who lived right in the heart of Inglewood and the only time he heard shots was during the riots. I heard more gunfire when I lived in rural Nevada.


Phoenix was the worst when I was in Central Phx. Downtown wasn't as bad as 2 of the other neighborhoods I lived in. My last neighborhood had a series of little 4-unit apartments at the end of the street that got designated a 'Special Enforcement Zone', meaning that the littlest call would get cops in about 7 minutes. We had a house on our street that was empty, and people would break in and do drugs, bang hookers, bang drugs, do hookers, etc. The house got set on fire 3 times in 4 months,and I would call the non-emergency number for the police any time I saw someone even in the yard. Even that was a 7 minute response. There were also 2 times I saw vans swoop in, full of cops in SWAT gear, which allows the doors open ready to jump out. The Ghetto Bird was over our house at least once a night, and looking in our yard at least once a week.

One night, someone even tried to come in through the back. My dog scared them off, and I never stopped being grateful for that. As for the neighborhood, this was the end of Phx that bordered Scottsdale for God's sake...

Like I said, SO glad I left, even if I DID take up residence with the Mormons. Besides, this place is unbelievably beautiful.
 
2012-11-28 01:17:57 AM

Mikey1969: Big deal, look at the rash of school attacks in China and couple of years ago, something like 38 kids murdered, no guns at all. All knives and one sword, I believe


Damn.

I mean we have weekly incidents in the US where guys kill their families.

But 38 in China? Has their economy recovered?
 
2012-11-28 01:21:32 AM

jaytkay: Mikey1969: Big deal, look at the rash of school attacks in China and couple of years ago, something like 38 kids murdered, no guns at all. All knives and one sword, I believe

Damn.

I mean we have weekly incidents in the US where guys kill their families.

But 38 in China? Has their economy recovered?


Yeah, because that was the point. You know what the point is, so I'm not going to re-state it.
 
2012-11-28 01:31:58 AM

jaytkay: Chicago's murder rate plummeted during it's 30-year handgun ban.

Chicago's murder rate has soared with legal handguns.

For some reason conservatives don't shout about these facts.

Well, they don't shout about one of them.


Probably because they are outright lies. Chicago's murder rate during the gun ban was an average of ~900 homicides a year. As I recall, Chicago and DC had the strictest gun control in the country, and had the worst crime rates across the board. Since their gun bans were thrown out, their crime rates have begun to fall more in line with the national average. And Chicago's "soaring murder rate" is still half that of the years during the ban.
 
2012-11-28 01:33:16 AM

you are a puppet: Biological Ali: Could someone translate that headline into English?

Pricipal . Caught sayof virginia that has stoped Gunsales " See, told ya so" Is People dead or not. Libs Says yes. Brady Campaign Looking for ban -OR- "hello, I am write single to gun violence and wait for answer again"


I understand completely.
 
2012-11-28 01:33:21 AM

BSABSVR: What is the violent crime rate in other states? What about the rate of gun ownership? This is not enough data to reach the conclusions that the entire internet has apparently reached.


This one data point, no.

However, you can find all the shiat you've just asked about with Google, and it also largely supports the zero- or negative-correlation conclusion. And by largely I mean... entirely. The entire nation has had declining gun crime along with all crime over the past 20 years or so, roughly evenly distributed. The other major gun-related thing that's happened nationally in that time frame? Essentially every state has implemented a concealed-carry program, and some states have gone open-carry.

The thing that had no noticeable impact on the downward trend? The assault weapons ban.

The relative strictness of gun control, and suppression of legal gun sales, is either actively counterproductive in preventing gun violence or has so little impact compared to other factors that if you're seriously advocating them you need to have your head examined. Thoroughly, thoroughly discredited ideas at this point. Crime is addressed by addressing education, the economy, and criminals directly, roughly in that order. Picking an arbitrary tool sometimes used in crime and arbitrarily picking on the people that use or make it has done nothing to prevent any crime, ever. This is very, very firmly established at this point.

//There is a correlation between gun ownership and gun _accidents_, that's about it.
 
2012-11-28 01:33:29 AM

President Merkin Muffley: I kinda have a Fark crush on you.


Don't get too excited. I got distracted from finding those numbers by XKCD and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Priorities!
 
2012-11-28 01:35:46 AM
Guns don't kill people, rappers do.

Hey, gun nerds, speaking as a far left activist, most socialists, Communists and anarchists are either strongly pro-gun or at most neutral on the subject. We're on your side! Come on, hang out with us!

/It's a fact, music makes you violent, like Michael Jackson telling little Timmy to be silent
 
2012-11-28 01:37:22 AM
something tells me the point of the article was to keep the "they commin after yer guns!" narrative alive in peoples minds.
 
2012-11-28 01:41:04 AM

RINO: Probably because they are outright lies. Chicago's murder rate during the gun ban was an average of ~900 homicides a year. As I recall, Chicago and DC had the strictest gun control in the country, and had the worst crime rates across the board. Since their gun bans were thrown out, their crime rates have begun to fall more in line with the national average.


You know how I know you haven't bothered to look at the actual numbers?
 
2012-11-28 01:47:05 AM
It's not the guns causing the violence, it's people. Canada also has a fairly high rate of gun ownership, yet their murder rate is much lower. Given that, I'm lead to believe that it's Americans, not the guns, that are the problem
 
2012-11-28 01:50:27 AM

Mikey1969: jaytkay: Mikey1969: Big deal, look at the rash of school attacks in China and couple of years ago, something like 38 kids murdered, no guns at all. All knives and one sword, I believe

Damn.

I mean we have weekly incidents in the US where guys kill their families.

But 38 in China? Has their economy recovered?

Yeah, because that was the point. You know what the point is, so I'm not going to re-state it.


Genghis Khan killed a million people in about an hour with his Golden Horde and their sword
 
2012-11-28 01:52:37 AM

cmb53208: It's not the guns causing the violence, it's people. Canada also has a fairly high rate of gun ownership, yet their murder rate is much lower. Given that, I'm lead to believe that it's Americans, not the guns, that are the problem


We have a much more multicultural population and, iirc, a larger divide between rich and poor, plus a penal system focused on incarceration instead of redress and reformation... so basically yeah.
 
2012-11-28 01:59:52 AM
(This comment has been removed)
 
2012-11-28 02:02:20 AM
Too easy for some people to get guns... I can give you 32 reasons. : (
 
2012-11-28 02:03:29 AM
I feel like this headline was written in the midst of a stroke. I certainly hope it was serious.
 
2012-11-28 02:10:42 AM

FlippityFlap: "jaytkay

I HATE LIBS: Wanna see a liberal's head explode? Let illegal immigrants own guns.

??"


Clearly,HE HATES LIBS.


Not at all... His people are known for their shamanic rituals in which the participants are filled with joy and hear the voice of God. This is frequently referred to as the "heady explosion of His joyous voice", or "head explosion" for short.

He just wants to make liberals, and our brethren from across the border, as happy as he is.
 
2012-11-28 02:13:21 AM

BMulligan: Gyrfalcon: I've lived in Los Angeles and Orange County for decades and never heard a single gunshot.

I knew a guy who lived right in the heart of Inglewood and the only time he heard shots was during the riots. I heard more gunfire when I lived in rural Nevada.

Really? When I lived in the Valley in the late 80's, I'd hear gunshots two or three times a month. When I lived in Hollywood, it was two or three times a week. Here in Seattle, I hear gunshots two or three times a year.


I live in the Cleveland vacinity (OH, not TN) and can't even remember the last time I heard a gun shot
 
2012-11-28 02:13:52 AM

dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

Named in 2007 as Family Circle's "10 best towns for families".

In 2008, Kennesaw recorded 31 violent crimes, as compared to 127 in Dalton and 188 in Hinesville. 555 property crimes were recorded as compared to 1,124 in Dalton and 1,802 in Hinesville. (From the Financial Times)


President Merkin Muffley: dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

Named in 2007 as Family Circle's "10 best towns for families".

In 2008, Kennesaw recorded 31 violent crimes, as compared to 127 in Dalton and 188 in Hinesville. 555 property crimes were recorded as compared to 1,124 in Dalton and 1,802 in Hinesville. (From the Financial Times)

I'll bite. What are the populations of each town and the crimes as a percentage of those populations.

Dustman81 will deliver, let's just wait.


I checked it out, and they're actually comparable. However, they're in completely different parts of the state, and have completely different demographics.

Kennesaw median income: $61,000
Hinesville median income: $35,000
Dalton median income: $35,000

It's no coincidence that lower income areas have higher crime. To attribute this solely to guns is just dumb.
 
2012-11-28 02:16:30 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: I have my students pick a final project based around a controversial scientific theory and I have one group doing the "gun ownership reduces crime rates" bit next week. As many have mentioned, this is all about correlation and causation- they have lots of nice graphs showing gun ownership rates over time vs. violent crime rates.

I can draw those exact same graphs looking at violent video game sales, which have increased as crime rates have dropped. Ditto increase in porn website views. And miles flown by the average American. And ice cream sales.

I have a counter group for each that's supposed to criticize the other group. If their entire paper isn't an attack along these lines I'll be disappointed. The proposing group better be ready for it as well- I've already warned them it's coming.


It might also be worth looking at gun sales by geography within the state and by gender. It's possible that gun sales are increasing more in rural areas, while crime is decreasing primarily in urban areas. And if sales are mostly increasing for women, who commit a comparatively small number of crimes, then that could also disprove the causation.
 
2012-11-28 02:16:56 AM

Moosecakes: dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

Named in 2007 as Family Circle's "10 best towns for families".

In 2008, Kennesaw recorded 31 violent crimes, as compared to 127 in Dalton and 188 in Hinesville. 555 property crimes were recorded as compared to 1,124 in Dalton and 1,802 in Hinesville. (From the Financial Times)

President Merkin Muffley: dustman81: Let's look at Kennesaw, GA. A town where gun ownership isn't just encouraged, it's the law.

Named in 2007 as Family Circle's "10 best towns for families".

In 2008, Kennesaw recorded 31 violent crimes, as compared to 127 in Dalton and 188 in Hinesville. 555 property crimes were recorded as compared to 1,124 in Dalton and 1,802 in Hinesville. (From the Financial Times)

I'll bite. What are the populations of each town and the crimes as a percentage of those populations.

Dustman81 will deliver, let's just wait.

I checked it out, and they're actually comparable. However, they're in completely different parts of the state, and have completely different demographics.

Kennesaw median income: $61,000
Hinesville median income: $35,000
Dalton median income: $35,000

It's no coincidence that lower income areas have higher crime. To attribute this solely to guns is just dumb.


Gold Star
 
2012-11-28 02:23:20 AM

BMulligan: Gyrfalcon: I've lived in Los Angeles and Orange County for decades and never heard a single gunshot.

I knew a guy who lived right in the heart of Inglewood and the only time he heard shots was during the riots. I heard more gunfire when I lived in rural Nevada.

Really? When I lived in the Valley in the late 80's, I'd hear gunshots two or three times a month. When I lived in Hollywood, it was two or three times a week. Here in Seattle, I hear gunshots two or three times a year.


Maybe it's just me? I generally advise my roommates and neighbors that my policy is "If I get in trouble because of anything YOU do, the cops will be arresting me for your murder." It keeps things around me very polite.
 
2012-11-28 02:42:45 AM

eraser8: Crime has been falling pretty much everywhere. Even in places with very, very strict handgun laws (e.g. Washington, DC & New York City).


Yakk: Fine, I'll post it:

[blog.lib.umn.edu image 459x185]


Goddammit beat me to it.

Fine, once more from the top: CORRELATION != CAUSATION.

/YOU F--KERS.
 
2012-11-28 02:43:50 AM

thomps: "It's mathematically not possible, because the relationship is a negative relationship - they're moving in the opposite direction," Baker said. "So the only thing it could be is that more guns are causing less crime."

well no, it could also be that there is no causation at all, or other factors outweigh a causation between increased gun ownership and gun crime. there are a lot of possibilities here because you aren't doing any actual analysis with the data you were provided.


Republican governors always see a lower crime rate in Va too.
 
2012-11-28 02:52:48 AM

Nemo's Brother: Republican governors always see a lower crime rate in Va too.


Is it because they shut their blinds?
 
2012-11-28 03:00:20 AM

I HATE LIBS: Wanna see a liberal's head explode? Let illegal immigrants own guns.


Wanna see a conservative's head explode? Invent a gun that can only perform abortions.
 
2012-11-28 03:01:58 AM

Mikey1969: The point is that freaks will murder people using any weapon. Take away guns, they move to blades.


Why didn't they, then? Why only 12 homicides amongst 7 million people? The BEST you can do is point to a "rash" of sword killings that amount to a whole 38? From a couple years ago?

/laughing and pointing
 
2012-11-28 03:02:48 AM
Subby you can take your HURR DURR liberals want to ban guns and stick it up your ass.
Bonus: pull the trigger.
 
2012-11-28 03:06:05 AM

mediablitz: /laughing and pointing


I find myself pointing and laughing at him quite frequently.
 
2012-11-28 03:08:54 AM
xtupload.com

If liberals just forgot about this stupid gun control wedge issue (their version of the right wing's flag burning amendment) and embraced firearms they would rob the GOP of one of the only remaining legs they have to stand on. It would be like kicking them in the nuts.

Think of the trolling opportunities for Obama. If he went out duck hunting one weekend with someone like Nancy Pelosi or Hillary, and got plenty of pictures of them carrying a shotgun, wearing his neon vest, camo, and shiatkickers with some dead ducks slung over his shoulder, he would have the GOP passing anti-gun laws within days. 

/pro-gun liberal
 
2012-11-28 03:12:35 AM

Goodfella: and embraced firearms


They don't even have to embrace them, just ignore them.

Goodfella: Think of the trolling opportunities for Obama. If he went out duck hunting one weekend with someone like Nancy Pelosi or Hillary, and got plenty of pictures of them carrying a shotgun, wearing his neon vest, camo, and shiatkickers with some dead ducks slung over his shoulder, he would have the GOP passing anti-gun laws within days.


my lord....that would be glorious...
 
2012-11-28 03:12:56 AM

FishStampede: Correlation, causation, statisticals, etc.

But seriously...do liberals even argue for gun control anymore?


No they don't, and haven't for quite some time. It's a lost battle, they know it, and frankly, there wasn't that much support for it anyway.


It seems like conservatives are just screaming at a wall here, since I don't hear any liberals who have not personally been shot by a crazed gunman coming out against responsible gun ownership.

/member of my local Liberal Gun Club


Indeed. Most liberals I know (including myself) think guns are pretty farkin' groovy.
 
2012-11-28 03:14:50 AM

Peter von Nostrand: Guns don't commit crime, people commit crime




People don't commit crimes. People's hands commit crimes.
 
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