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(Jezebel)   "The Casanova myth is so deeply ingrained that people are convinced that boys who claim to want relationships rather than casual sex are either incredibly rare or full of crap." or are trying to claw their way out of the "Friend Zone"   (jezebel.com) divider line 99
    More: Interesting, Giacomo Casanova, friend zones, interpersonal relationship, cultural landscape, sexual excitement, Challenging Casanova, A Natural History of Rape, Petraeus  
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10250 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2012 at 8:46 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-11-27 09:19:27 PM  
7 votes:

CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*


This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes so long for individual guys to figure that out. It took me like a decade. We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.
2012-11-27 06:35:37 PM  
7 votes:
Please don't greenlight Hugo Schwyzer links.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.
2012-11-27 09:53:22 PM  
6 votes:

wedun: what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.


Look, if you go to the store to buy some oranges, and they don't have any oranges, do you leave or do you wait around hoping that someday they'll have oranges? If you're a man, you go to another store and get some oranges. If you're a wimp-ass pussy you wait around with a hangdog sheepish expression on your face hinting around that you want oranges for months until they get sick of it and kick you out. Which would you rather be? Your choice.
2012-11-27 06:13:32 PM  
5 votes:
Just a few thoughts.

Smiler cites the findings of the International Sexuality Description Project which found that when asked about what they'd like to have happen in the next month, 25% of young men wanted to have two or more sexual partners in that time frame...75% of young men, despite the cultural pressures towards heterosexual male promiscuity, wanted only one (or zero) partners in the upcoming month.

No, 25 percent of young men wanted to have 2 or more sexual partners AT THE SAME TIME during that time frame. They just misunderstood the question. The other 75 percent did not entertain such aspirations because they knew it was as likely as winning Powerball. You learn to appreciate what's realistic or you die unhappy.

something that only 5% of young women admitted to wanting.

WHORES.

In Challenging Casanova, Smiler notes that heterosexual young men tend to fall into three categories: a small percentage of "players" with a high number of sexual partners;

aka, studs

an equally small percentage of young (almost always devoutly religious) dudes who are determined to remain abstinent until marriage,

aka, Jesus freaks and closeted homosexuals

and a much larger third group whom he argues want to follow "a reasonably traditional, romantic approach to dating." Even when they're "hooking up" (a practice that is neither as novel nor as ubiquitous as wistful and censorious aging pundits imagine) these guys are engaging in the gateway behavior into what they hope will be a relationship.

No, these are the guys who are saying the things they believe they need to say to get a woman into bed.

These findings contradict most of our received wisdom about what young men really want.

No they don't.

"I'm constantly told that the 'boys are lying' to me about what they really want," Smiler says in a phone interview. "The Casanova myth is so deeply ingrained that people are convinced that boys who claim to want relationships rather than casual sex are either incredibly rare or full of crap." The small number of genuinely promiscuous boys is explained away by absence of opportunity rather than absence of desire; the myth that most young men would be Casanovas if they could is as tenacious as it is unfounded. There seem to be few other aspects of human sexual behavior where the disconnect between reality and perception is so vast.

So..."I don't believe A is true, but everybody else does. Therefore, A is a deeply ingrained myth that is not true."

Yet Millenial guys are genuinely different in their attitudes towards sex than their Gen X and Boomer elders.

No, they've just grown up with a generation of women who are much more willing to engage in casual sex.

A substantial part of that evolution can be explained by a much-more widespread acceptance of cross-sex friendship. "Today, most boys have at least one friend who happens to be female -- a 'girl friend' but not a 'girlfriend,'"

And what percentage of these are fark buddies?

Perhaps the biggest take-away from Smiler's work is that men's sexual choices are just that, choices. Physiology and evolution may influence desires, but they don't override any man's capacity to reflect before acting. The myth of male weakness and the Casanova Complex suggest that men are ultimately powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, and that it is the responsibility of those who are less horny -- women - to cover their bodies, set healthy boundaries, and generally prevent civilization from collapsing into orgiastic chaos.

Yes. Yes, this is why things General Petraeus is still head of the CIA.

Biology hasn't changed, but boys have, and for the better. May they teach their parents well.

Bullshiat. 

Other than that, great article.
2012-11-27 09:31:06 PM  
4 votes:

taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes so long for individual guys to figure that out. It took me like a decade. We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.


And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.
2012-11-27 09:19:58 PM  
4 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.
2012-11-27 10:33:49 PM  
3 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.


Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.
2012-11-27 09:14:45 PM  
3 votes:
There is a big difference between "friends" and "just friends"
2012-11-27 09:09:23 PM  
3 votes:
fta: The new research about young men and romance is hard to accept because the emerging trend of "caring, romantic boys" doesn't gibe with our experiences of an older generation of men. [link goes to stat about teen pregnancies being down]

There is no trend. Teen pregnancies are down because of the availability of contraception and accessibility of pornography, not because teen boys are caring and understanding. In fact, the reverse is true, and again, its because of pornography:

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teen girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education.
2012-11-27 09:01:52 PM  
3 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?


Women for the most part have low self esteem. It comes from growing up being teased by other girls, mostly. So when a guy is nice and thinks they are nice, they're suspicious. It's the guys that treat them like crap that "see them as they really are" and so don't have illusions to be shattered. The well adjusted girls are already in relationships, they tend to have their shiat together.
2012-11-27 07:40:10 PM  
3 votes:

coco ebert: RoyBatty: Please don't greenlight Hugo Schwyzer links.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?


It depends on what you mean by "owned up" and "explored them in his work".

Everything I wrote is based on multiple blog postings he wrote. So if owned up means he wrote it, then yes, he owned up.

"Explored them in his work" means rationalized them, and blamed men, culture, and the Patriarchy for his personal behaviors.

So he has never owned up to any of it, if owned up admits taking full responsibility and/or admitting his behavior was wrong or needed changing. And he has since purged his blogs of many of his original postings.

Here he has purged his blog of the entire category of teacher-student-sexual-relationships.

Link (goes to 404)

So at Feministe he is asked about the chaperoning and he condemns it, but states how it has made him a better person and better able to see the faults of power in anyone sexual relationships. It's never "I was wrong, period", it's "I failed in the same way all (men) fail".

But Hugo has fallen so many many times and in such bizarre and clear ways while at the same time proclaiming himself to be the uber-feminist that I can't take his cry that he is just one of the guys seriously.

CT: You have a somewhat controversial sexual history. You've openly acknowledged doing things as intense as chaperoning a class trip on which you slept with four of the students. How does this influence your thinking about sexuality today?

HS: Hah, I love the ambiguity of the word "intense." In terms of my sexual history with my students (which for the sake of clarification ended abruptly when I got sober in '98), the key word is simply "unethical." Though my promiscuity was hardly confined to my own students, that behavior stands out as deeply and profoundly wrong. Even if it was consensual, and involved students who for the most part were my approximate chronological peers, it was still a boundary violation. In the broader sense, that aspect of my past has made me keenly sensitive to power imbalances in sexual relationships. It's made me mistrustful of the possibility of consent in those instances where one person has so much more experience and authority than the other.


And he doesn't write of how he tried to kill his girlfriend, he writes of how depressed he was, and what a terrible life he had been living and oh by the way, while trying to kill himself (by exploding the house IIRC), his girlfriend was in the other room.

And he doesn't write that the deception of the man was wrong, he writes he was correct to deceive the guy, because Hugo was not ready to be a father, and he writes that it is still correct to deceive the guy.

In most cases in his writing he takes some terrible behavior he has committed and if he does admit such behavior was wrong, he doesn't take personal responsibility for it, instead he places responsibility for it on all men, and on the Patriarchy.

This is why feminists loved him up until just about a year ago when the attempted murder of his girlfriend became more widely known. 

Sorry, I know this rambled.
2012-11-27 06:46:09 PM  
3 votes:

RoyBatty: As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.


As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls, when he was the designated chaperone.

In light of the above, it seems ironic that Hugo would write this:

The myth of male weakness and the Casanova Complex suggest that men are ultimately powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, and that it is the responsibility of those who are less horny -- women - to cover their bodies, set healthy boundaries, and generally prevent civilization from collapsing into orgiastic chaos. Young men today don't have any less testosterone than did their dads, but when it comes to sex, they're thinking and acting differently. Biology hasn't changed, but boys have, and for the better. May they teach their parents well.

Of all the people that have claimed to be powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, Hugo by his own admitted behaviors has to be at the top of that list. 

Don't greenlight Hugo Schywzer, the guy is a sociopath.
2012-11-28 09:27:54 AM  
2 votes:
There really needs to be a class for boys/young men about women and dating. Get taught this stuff early so both men and women can be happy.
2012-11-27 10:13:14 PM  
2 votes:
i think sex and society are messed up in lots of ways. public perception of sexual stereotypes can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and both men and women are guilty of it.

both men and women want lots of casual sex with numerous partners, and both men and women also want a long-lasting emotional relationship with one partner. those things are not mutually exclusive. our society's weird hang-ups on sex have made them that way. but women can't admit that they want casual sex because society looks down on women like that and calls them sluts. and men can't admit that they really want a serious emotional relationship, because everyone assumes they are just lying in order to get laid. in a perfect world, we could have our serious relationships but also have casual sex with others without society judging us for it.

but guys are sometimes forced to simply pursue casual sex, because women don't trust them enough to start serious relationships, because of their experiences with men who only want casual sex. it's like a vicious cycle. and women can only go after the serious relationship because that's what people expect of them, they can't just enjoy casual sex because it could ruin their reputation. in the end, none of us are getting what we want. if we would simply be honest with each other about our wants and needs, and realize that casual sex and emotional romance are both important and good things, i think we'd all be a lot better off.
2012-11-27 10:08:39 PM  
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of women.


AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat.


Lol.
hellogiggles.com
2012-11-27 10:01:39 PM  
2 votes:
Every time this thread comes up there's a bunch of guys on here talking about how cruel and insensitive women/girls are for friend-zoning them - as if it's some intentional plot to use, manipulate, or hurt guys. It's really not. Now I'm sure there are some girls out there who take advantage of their friend-zoned guys or treat them poorly. However, I think in a lot of these situations girls actually think that the guy just wants to be their friend, or they're at least hoping he doesn't like her (assuming she doesn't like him). When the big reveal happens where he tells her he likes her then she gives him the option of being a friend or being nothing. That isn't cruel, that's being honest with you. She doesn't like you. It sucks, but what is she supposed to do? If you continue to be her friend at that point, that's on you. She shouldn't lead you on by flirting with you, but I doubt that's what's happening in most these situations.

I've been the friend-zoner and the zonee and I know how much it can suck from both sides if you are interested in the person, but people just need to chill and realize that not everyone is out to hurt them.

Also, men and women can be just friends. There just probably isn't any mutual sexual attraction between them. Women will always be friends with ugly guys, and some guys will be friends with ugly girls that they're not attracted to. Some guys see that as a waste of time, and some just like to hang out with a cool chick that they have no sexual interest in. To each their own. It is possible though.
2012-11-27 09:45:26 PM  
2 votes:
You know what, I always used to think I wanted a relationship. I have one now, and sometimes all I can think about is what I missed out on by not dating. I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner. Everyone claims monogamy, but they also drool over celebrities. If we were truly monogamous no one would have lists of celebrities they can sleep with, because no one would want to sleep with anyone but their partner.

To all the people saying you should accept the friend zone: It's debatable really. The options are:

1) Accept it. Keep longing for her every time she's around. Keep getting sad when she leaves. Eventually do something stupid that ruins the friendship.

2) End the friendship. This is not a tantrum, as someone suggested earlier. Ending a friendship for any reason is a decision, and if a person thinks they will be happier without a friendship then it is actually the responsible choice to make.

3) This is the hard one, but it's the "non-dickish" way to handle it without the pain. Stop desiring the woman, then you can remain her friend without the pain.

The problem with 3 is that it can be really difficult. The type of man who gets friend zoned is NOT the type of man who has a lot of sexual partners. He likes someone, and that's all he knows. The person who can stop desiring that women is the kind of guy who can just pick up the next girl he sees. There's no longing because he moves on.

Oh wait, here we are reading an article about how men supposedly want only one partner. An article stating most men are the kind of guy who gets friend-zoned, longs after a woman, and never gets anywhere and only gets hurt.

In other words, most guys really only have options 1 or 2. If they have the self-confidence for 3 they aren't friend zoned, because they can easily and happily just move on.
2012-11-27 09:45:14 PM  
2 votes:
I've had this problem with woman before. When I was younger I had trouble with getting out of the friends zone with woman. When I got older I had trouble out of the friends with benefits zone with woman.

Sounds silly to say and I've got guy friends who are absolutely baffled why I would want any different. Funnily enough my female friends seem to better understand the whole friends with benefits idea better. One explained it to me as 'you find a guy that you feel safe with and enjoy having sex with, your going to keep going back to that guy, even if your not ready for a relationship'.
2012-11-27 09:35:29 PM  
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Thisbymaster: Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.

Sorry to hear that your female friends are so terrible to you.

Or that you have such a low opinion of women.

Whichever. Sorry to hear it.


Give it up. She's not going to sleep with you.

Wait...who are you White Knighting again?

Seriously. You're calling out people for being honest with themselves and others. Not everybody needs to be friends with every last person they meet. If there's attraction there, it causes trouble for at least one of the people involved. Life is too short and there are too many other people in the world to bother clinging to that person who makes you feel uncomfortable.
2012-11-27 09:29:02 PM  
2 votes:
everythingfunny.org
2012-11-27 09:27:36 PM  
2 votes:

wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.


Throwing a tantrum would be saying things about her in her back, and act like a complete dick infront of her. My way is taking the god-damned high road. She doesn't want you, and no one likes to be treated like a second-grade person. You cut the problem in the bud, she doesn't see you again, you get self-respect, everyone's a winner.
2012-11-27 09:23:01 PM  
2 votes:
If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."
2012-11-27 09:22:42 PM  
2 votes:

LazerFish: There is a big difference between "friends" and "just friends"


Just friends is worse than mortal enemies. Enemies can't ruin your day by doing nothing. The have to try hard and succeed to do that. Just friends, though, can only do one thing to not ruin your day. Everything else they do or do not do hits you where it hurts.
2012-11-27 09:22:31 PM  
2 votes:
2012-11-27 09:15:31 PM  
2 votes:

GreenSun: I prefer having one beautiful, sexy, and emotionally stable girlfriend than infinite beautiful and sexy women who lack mental stability. Better alive than dead.


Every man dies. Not every man really lives.
2012-11-27 09:02:59 PM  
2 votes:
img5.joyreactor.com
2012-11-27 09:00:36 PM  
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?


Women are so stupid, they actually think their "guy friends" are just friends, instead of creepy losers waiting for them to fall asleep drunk on the couch one night after putt-putt so they can fingerbang them and take photos while doing it. "Josh is so nice, he's always there when I need him, he even let slept on the couch and let me sleep in his bed when I was too drunk to drive home last Tuesday. I don't remember putting my underwear on inside out, though, it must have happened during the night when I went to the bathroom."
2012-11-27 08:04:06 PM  
2 votes:

RoyBatty: coco ebert: RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.

Shorter Coco Ebert:

I have NOT read much of what he has written.
I would need to read more to know.

But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.


FTFM with an important not.

Seriously, if you admit to not reading Hugo much, well maybe before coming in to defend the guy, you should take the time to read him and his critics.

Or, when you ask a question,

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?

Save the time for everyone and admit you're making a statement and don't actually want an answer.
2012-11-28 07:15:48 PM  
1 votes:

wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.


You're right, that's for women to do.
2012-11-28 06:38:05 PM  
1 votes:

Duck_of_Doom: You have to weigh your friendship vs. your crush. Is this a good friend that you developed feelings for, or is it someone you starting hanging out with to work your way into sex/a relationship?


What if it is neither? You meet people all the time, often not by your own doing (friends of friends, etc).
It is possible, in fact likely, that this is someone for whom you had no particular intentions when you met them.


Duck_of_Doom: Be honest about it, is the friendship worth keeping? Maybe the answer is no, and that's fine too.


I agree, and in fact that's all I was saying.
I was only refuting the idea put forth by the person that I was responding to, that this entire "friend zone" thing is some misogynistic concept based on the idea that women are required to give us what we want if we pay attention to them or devote our time to them. The allegation was that bailing on someone -- in ANY case -- is somehow proof that we were only ever pretending to be friends in order to extract sex from her, and that we're treating her like a "biatch" because she didn't give us what we felt we were entitled to. I think that idea is wholly full of sh*t and I rebuke it.
2012-11-28 11:38:49 AM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: balisane: I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.

I think i'm the type to want to date someone that has the balls to ask me out. Not only ask me out, but do it in a funny or unique way like start a political debate or argument with me and then ask me out for coffee as we're screaming at each other about how Romney's folders full of women may really be his other wives and how he secretly plans to turn our country into the "The United States of Mormon."

Oh dear god...

I should date a farker


You and pretty much every other female. Also, you like almost all others doesn't want to risk rejection. But, you see, for the most part, if we males don't risk rejection we get exactly nowhere.
2012-11-28 11:22:41 AM  
1 votes:

Telos: To all the people saying you should accept the friend zone: It's debatable really. The options are:

1) Accept it. Keep longing for her every time she's around. Keep getting sad when she leaves. Eventually do something stupid that ruins the friendship.

2) End the friendship. This is not a tantrum, as someone suggested earlier. Ending a friendship for any reason is a decision, and if a person thinks they will be happier without a friendship then it is actually the responsible choice to make.

3) This is the hard one, but it's the "non-dickish" way to handle it without the pain. Stop desiring the woman, then you can remain her friend without the pain.



Is that like "praying away the gay"? 'Cuz that totally works.


/the heart wants what it wants
2012-11-28 07:17:46 AM  
1 votes:
I think a lot of this issue comes down to how you approach your interaction with a woman in the first place. This is the problem I've always had, though I wouldn't say I've ever been "friendzoned", per se, simply because I haven't really had any close female friends. I'm too cautious a person- it's very hard for me to decide to even be friends with anyone based on a random chance encounter. It usually takes several meetings/interactions for that to happen, with anyone. Also, I just don't feel much immediate attraction for anyone, or maybe because of my cautiousness I've conditioned myself to repress it. Anyway, getting back to the point, my own experience is that if you don't immediately act on the attraction at the first opportunity, the best you can hope for is friendship, and that is all you should expect. I don't think men and women develop attraction the same way, or, if they do, women are far less likely to act on it, at any time, and if they guy doesn't act on it right away, they lose interest.

For myself, I really wonder if I'm doomed to be alone. Being alone in itself doesn't frighten me, because I currently get (what feels like) sufficient joy out of exploring/analyzing the rest of the world. What concerns me is that I'll eventually hit a point at which that need for exploration no longer suffices, and it will be too late.
2012-11-28 05:46:32 AM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Telos: She won't even let me go to a strip club.

let ??


The sh*t people will put up with is amazing. Good luck with such a loving, secure relationship. Have several children.
2012-11-28 04:10:16 AM  
1 votes:

Lernaeus: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Agreed.

A lot of friendzoning is done by girls (I won't say 'women') who are users, the kind that have multiple male friends that are each useful for whatever emotional need they have at a particular moment. They may not be doing this totally consciously, as they probably got away with this behavior (without anyone calling them on it) for so long that it's their primary means of dealing with others. They don't notice it, and the revolving door of disposable guy friends keeps on turning.

Through experience I've learned that the moment you think you like a girl, ask her out; if she declines in any way, be cordial but keep her at arm's length and move on.

Dating and courtship are forgotten arts, so to any self-identified young men I say: stop thinking the time and effort you're putting in are working - they're not; to her you're just a means to an end.


I agree. I've come to realize any healthy functional interaction between two people must be an equal exchange or it will eventually fall apart. You can see this in pretty much anyway two people interact. When 1 person is taking more than they are giving or the other person is expecting more then the other person is willing to give, the relationship is doomed. Look at buying and selling. Each side has to feel like they are both getting and giving up something of value. If the price is too high or low for one or the other, the sale won't be made.

But you can see this concept in relationships too. Both sides have to feel like continuing the relationship is a positive thing. If one friend is always using the other, but in turn never helps, the other friend will eventually get pissed and cut it off. Husbands and wives also must be willing to give to each other just as much as they receive. Keep in mind that the attitude of "I'm only giving her/him what they want just to get what I want" is NOT healthy. Both sides should be wanting to help and please the other. But in practice, if they are truly doing that, than they will also both be getting just as much as they give. A husband should want to please his wife by doing anything from going down on her to just randomly doing the laundry or cleaning. Not because he expects something in return, but because her being happy is a good thing to him. Likewise for wives. They should find true personal joy in just pleasing their man. Not just having sex in return for mowing the lawn. But having sex or letting him watch hockey, or whatever, not just for their own enjoyment, but because the idea of a happy husband really makes her happy too. The others happiness should be the motivation. But if both do this, they will both also be receiving just as much from the other too.

Friendzoning is wrong because if often flies in the face of this. As Learnaeus said, often friendzoning is when the girl essentially collects a following of pathetic guys she knows are at her disposal for anything she wants. She can always turn to one of them for a ride, a compliment, someone to take her to the club or bar (and of course to leave behind or keep around as a third wheel when she meets a guy she actually wants). They are the guy friends who will help her with a college paper because she was busy partying. They'll come jump her car, or bring her lunch at work, or just tell her how beautiful she is when she drops a few "my hair looks so bad today =(" hints. These girls have often grown up from adolescence with guys fawning all over them that it's just life to them. They've always had an entourage of guys who just want to be around her. When she gets older she realizes that a touch of the arm here, maybe a drunken kiss once or twice keeps that hope burning inside the guy. Just enough to make sure he sticks around. He's the guy she complains about her boyfriend too. The guy who will pick her up from a bad date. The male "friend" isn't a friend in her eyes. He's a resource.

Now of course, not all female friend relationships have this "slave/master" aspect. Nothing is wrong with just being friends with a girl. Others have tried to say that cutting contact with a girl for not wanting to be more than friends is throwing a tantrum. Or that the guy thinks he deserve pussy. That's bullshiat. The fact is, both parties in the friendship deserve equal expectations and equal fulfillment. It doesn't have to be underhanded or bitter. If a girl just wants a friend but the guy wants to date, the girl will be fulfilled but the guy won't. It's unequal, so it's doomed. Both really are better off finding someone else. Neither the guy or girl are wrong for expecting what they want. The girl is not wrong for wanting just a male friend. And the guy is not wrong for having romantic or sexual desires and wanting a female partner who wants to fulfill these. Both should just be aware that if they cannot both be equally satisfied by their relationship, they are both better off looking for someone else. No need to get mad about it unless someone is being dishonest. Just agree that you're both better off apart.

It's not always just about sex with the guy, or girl. It's about having a personal need and wanting to find the right person who wants to fulfill it for you. Sometimes it will be a sexual desire. But it can often also be a true romantic relationship. A guy can just as easily fall in love and want to date or even marry a girl...who just wants to be his friend. Again: unequal=doomed. A friend has to want to be your friend as much as you want to be theirs. A boyfriend/girlfriend has to want to date you just as much as you want to date them. A wife or husband has to need you in their life as much as you need them. These are equal expectations and equal fulfillment.

So again, "friendzoning" is not the same as a guy having a female friend. Just being friends is fine. Both expect friendship, both fulfill friendship. equality satisfied. But "friendzoning" is when there is an element of inequality. Where one wants more but the other does not. At its best, it's when one really does want to be real friends but the other wants more. At its worst there is a "slave/master" aspect and one is actively using the other and only maintaining the "friendship" to keep taking from them. Both will eventually cause lots of pain an fall apart.

I've experienced both, and am no longer willing to participate in either. And as a precaution, I no longer let myself become friends with females. Could I be missing out on some real friendships? Yep. But I've learned enough about myself to know that it's not worth the risk. I don't trust my own emotions not to fall for a female friend.
2012-11-28 01:24:05 AM  
1 votes:
Isn't a Jezebel blog complaining about sexual mythology, being judgmental, and stereotyping kinda... hypocritical? I mean, given that their entire business model is to get advertising clicks by repeatedly spamming judgemental stereotypes from popular sexual mythology.
2012-11-28 01:22:14 AM  
1 votes:

if_i_really_have_to: The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency.


That's a ridiculous pile of bullsh*t.


if_i_really_have_to: You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail.


Holy f**k do you use a lot of loaded language. You could use those sentences to make anyone who is simply going out on a date sound like an evil manipulative bastard.

They're not looking for her to "reward" them with her body, they're looking for her to reciprocate their feelings of being interested in a relationship. And if you get to know someone for a little while and find yourself attracted to them in a way that they don't reciprocate, do you honestly think it is the better option to keep hanging around and pretending not to be interested? Are you under the impression that you can simply decide not to have feelings for someone?


if_i_really_have_to: You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch?


No, who the hell said that? Only you, as near as I can tell.
2012-11-28 01:02:31 AM  
1 votes:

pxlboy: Kuroshin: taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. ...

gym, 26 minutes, etc


No, this guy speaks the truth. Coming back from war gives you a brand new perspective. Get busy living or get busy dying, so to speak.

There comes a realization that our time here is very precious.

I want a relationship, and a best friend, but I'm not going to waste my time in the friendzone. My clock is ticking too. I don't want to be the 40 year old dad with a new born, or the retiree attending my daughter's high school graduation.

Friendzone relationships are not worth the time.
2012-11-28 12:12:20 AM  
1 votes:

Beluga Heights: Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?


Having female friends (which from the rest of your post is what it seems like you've mistaken the friendzone for) is of course a good thing. Having female friends you're only hanging around with because you hope the friendship becomes a relationship (ie- what the friendzone is) is creepy and manipulative.
2012-11-28 12:05:53 AM  
1 votes:
It's been a long time since I've posted but anytime there's a mention of the "friend zone" I feel that, as a resident expert, I owe it to my fellow farkers to raise a question.

Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?

For anyone reading this who is in a situation similar to mine (a sometimes excruciating friend zone scenario) I don't recommend carrying on if the relationship is only a constant source of humiliation and pain for you. By all means, do the heavy lifting: get out.

But I'm always reticent to think of being a woman's close friend (as a heterosexual male) as having little to no upside. Emotional intimacy is difficult, as I'm sure we've all experienced, and being loved, valued, trusted, and wanted is scarce. In my experience, sex has been immensely easier to get than genuine love. The kind of love that requires real vulnerability, real sacrifice, and has meant the most to me.

Sex is important, yes. And I won't pretend that lacking the sexual relationship with this other person has been deeply challenging and often rendered me sort of terrified and violated, but I can't see it as being more important than the emotional connection. Or that the emotional connection has to take on an inferior role just because of sex.

I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

Any thoughts?
2012-11-27 11:56:46 PM  
1 votes:

Tellingthem: Hey whatever floats your boat guys. It just doesn't do anything for me. Boobs are boobs, doesn't matter if they talked to me or not.


media.ticketmaster.com

once you've seen one woman naked, you... wanna see the rest of 'em naked
2012-11-27 11:49:27 PM  
1 votes:
I've been friend zoned so many times that I'm sick of it. The next woman who does it is going to get a rude reply to her, "let's not ruin it, let's stay friends. Besides, you have so much to offer that you should have no problem finding the right woman." "FARK YOU BIATCH! Just tell the truth. You're sickened by the idea of having a relationship with me, so don't farkin' try to sugar coat it with bullshiat."

/yeah, I'm bitter
//go fark yourself
2012-11-27 11:25:52 PM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

[chan.catiewayne.com image 467x337]

No I totally would! I just have to find someone thats for me, thats all. But more relevant to the article and to this situation in general- I really dont think most guys are friends with girls they secretly have feelings for. After a few weeks of hanging out eventually you're bound to say something and thats not enough time to really be friendzoned in the first place.


Ok, I'm confused. Were we talking about friends who want to be in a committed relationship with you or friends that want to have sex with you? Because I was talking about friends who want to have sex with you and I'm not sure where "feelings" come into that. Unless horny counts as a feeling. You can either listen to all the males in here who are clearly telling you that if you are attractive, your straight male friends want to bone you, or you can believe that they don't because you don't think they do. But I guarantee you that guys know more about what other guys want, at least in general, than you do. We've experienced it ourselves. I have female friends. The only ones I would not bone are the unattractive ones and the ones I've boned already. I'm not saying I represent all males, but I know I speak for most of them.
2012-11-27 11:15:31 PM  
1 votes:
Heh the friendzone doesn't bother me at all. That just means that she isn't the one for me and I can hang out and hit on her friends. Or she can be my wingwoman at a bar. If a chick isn't into you just accept it. Life is too short to worry about stuff like that.

\it also can be funny when they get jealous of other girls hanging out with me.
2012-11-27 11:13:43 PM  
1 votes:

dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife


And you know the size of Stu's dick?..
2012-11-27 10:50:03 PM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends.

For many guys this doesn't necessarily preclude sex.
I have had quite a few platonic friends that I'd have totally penis'd if I had been given the go-ahead.


EsteeFlwrPot: I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Eh, I kinda doubt it. If they aren't romantically interested they'd probably never ask just to keep things from getting "weird", but it doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it or would be a willing partner.

You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.

But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me


I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.
2012-11-27 10:45:45 PM  
1 votes:
jimhalterman.com

"You know what a platonic friend is to a woman? It's like a dick in a glass case. In case of emergency, break open glass!"
2012-11-27 10:45:27 PM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that.


Nonchalantly mention how you need to get laid.
2012-11-27 10:35:53 PM  
1 votes:

Telos: I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover?


I don't think that's really a fair question. Preferring a monogamous relationship to a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean you completely lack sexual desire for anyone other than your partner.

Telos: How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives?


Many people, possibly most people in fact, are serially monogamous - they go from one monogamous relationship to the next without having multiple partners at any one time. With both these questions you're redefining the term "monogamous" so narrowly that nobody fits it, then claiming that proves that nobody is monogamous..

One more time: Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything. You're looking at people in monogamous relationships and assuming that you know their own desires better than they do - that if they'd just be honest with themselves, they'd all be happy polyamorists like you. It's a really childish way of thinking.
2012-11-27 10:32:21 PM  
1 votes:
I want to be in a relationship. But it's almost impossible for me to be monogamous for extended periods. And love has nothing to do with it.
2012-11-27 10:21:58 PM  
1 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: Need_MindBleach: If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.


How hard is, "Do you want to get a cup of coffee sometime?" or "I think you're pretty cute" or "Do you want to go out?" as opposed to "I'll show no overt attraction to you, but I'll pretend to value your friendship in order to get close to you, then I'll get angry when you don't sleep with me."

Guys get friendzoned because the only people who act in the last way are man-children, and man-children are not attractive.

Sorry, it's the truth.
2012-11-27 10:18:51 PM  
1 votes:
Nothing ruins a friendship faster than awful casual sex.

But all this whining about being friend-zoned seems to prove the point of the article... That guys are way more emotional about sex than they'd like to admit.
2012-11-27 10:18:14 PM  
1 votes:
I'm one of these guys who became obsessed with one girl (or two) along the way, and whose feelings were never reciprocated. I never got angry with her about it, and it wasn't her fault, but the situation was vastly improved by cutting all contact with her.

I'm not sure how many other guys went through that same kind of situation, and guys don't really talk about it. It's honestly really hard to get help in dealing with unrequited love as a male.

The percentage of people who do not marry is also on the increase, so I think men would really benefit from help in this area. I'm 29 and haven't had a girlfriend since high school. I'm pretty sure I will never marry, and that's ok.
2012-11-27 10:04:05 PM  
1 votes:

Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner


Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.
2012-11-27 09:53:53 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.


Those are the Fark Independents of the Politics Tab. Let us not summon them here, lest they show up.
2012-11-27 09:49:50 PM  
1 votes:

Occam's Disposable Razor: Seth'n'Spectrum: Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

This. Women are fantastic. I like to think they feel the same way about us. But my guy friends want to shoot guns, build shiat, play video games and be goodhearted assholes to each other all while drinking. They also used to like to chase women, but nearly all are married now. Most (note: I'm sure there are ladies out there who break the mold) of the women I've known are not into these same activities. We can work together, even enjoy each other's company, but I'd hesitate to call any of them my friends. Does that make me a misogynist?


Separate but equal, right? Gimme a farking break.

I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.
2012-11-27 09:47:34 PM  
1 votes:
I've never been Friend Zoned, but I have been Roomate Zoned. It's easy to get through the Roomate Zone, it just takes alcohol. You do need to be good at finding a new place to live though...
2012-11-27 09:46:41 PM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.


In my humble experience there's been plenty of female friends I'd love to get out of the "friendzone" with, but then after a few weeks of whoring around I'd want to go right back to being "just friends."

For me to want a relationship a woman needs to be laid back, nerdy, appreciate me being a huge nerd, have an interest in at least 1 sport and not be too far from me politically. Honestly at that point I'm pretty flexible with looks.
2012-11-27 09:46:29 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


Aren't they also willing to do so? Selfishly keeping their sex to themselves instead of giving it up to save the friendship? If they don't care, why should I?
2012-11-27 09:44:26 PM  
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.


Based on what I have seen her post in years past, I'd not sure if she's lying or is really that oblivious.
2012-11-27 09:43:07 PM  
1 votes:

Kuroshin: Gunther: Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

This is Fark. How many one-night-stands do you think the average Farker has under their belt?

/I keed
//but only a little


We're not all basement-dwelling neckbeards lacking basic hygiene and the ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex.
2012-11-27 09:42:58 PM  
1 votes:

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.


You've been lurking for a while, have you?.
2012-11-27 09:38:24 PM  
1 votes:
Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

RoyBatty: Hugo Schwyzer


Yeah yeah; the guy is an astonishingly creepy douche who's figured out he can take advantage of his female students and avoid losing his pro-feminism cred by blaming "the patriarchy" for it. He wrote the article, but he didn't have anything to do with the study or with the book.
2012-11-27 09:36:15 PM  
1 votes:

balisane: And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.


Oh, I've seen it. It's terrible, once I almost did it, recoiled in horror when I realized it. So we dated a while, and it was, surprisingly, great. However, she got a scholarship abroad in Canada. We talked for a while in Skype, and then she found someone there. You just have to let go, sometimes.
2012-11-27 09:31:02 PM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I wouldn't last long in a relationship if the sex wasn't casual.


Is it still "casual sex" if I'm wearing a Chippendale's collar, or would that be "formal sex?"
2012-11-27 09:30:53 PM  
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Throwing a tantrum would be saying things about her in her back, and act like a complete dick infront of her. My way is taking the god-damned high road. She doesn't want you, and no one likes to be treated like a second-grade person. You cut the problem in the bud, she doesn't see you again, you get self-respect, everyone's a winner.


This. As someone rightly mentioned up-thread, the friendzone is more than just his/her disinterest in you; it's someone who uses leverages their position to use the other person.
2012-11-27 09:30:23 PM  
1 votes:
I'd much rather have a meaningful relationship instead of casual sex.

That said, if casual sex comes around, I'm sure as hell not going to turn it down.
2012-11-27 09:30:06 PM  
1 votes:

taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes ...


Bingo.

Fell for that exact same shiat growing up. Got abused for it as well.

Of course, I didn't get much play one way or the other. Just not good looking enough for women to want to fark. Now I'm married, and my wife constantly claims otherwise, but she's got no supporting evidence. I always tell her that she's just giving me the "Mom's Opinion." Never trust the opinion of a female that is emotionally invested - her perception is skewed.

Same goes for males as well, but that's usually reserved for things like cars and boats and secretaries.
2012-11-27 09:28:13 PM  
1 votes:
One piece of advice I wish I knew in my 20s - the thing that gets you into one girl's pants will stick you in the "friend zone" with another.
2012-11-27 09:23:39 PM  
1 votes:

Thisbymaster: Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.


Sorry to hear that your female friends are so terrible to you.

Or that you have such a low opinion of women.

Whichever. Sorry to hear it.
2012-11-27 09:21:02 PM  
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.


what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.
2012-11-27 09:18:35 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy:
What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


It's selfish to keep yourself on the same level as someone you admire? As he said, the relationship changed - it's not even a friendship anymore. It's something more or it's not.

We need more CygnusDarius's, really. Would break the friend zone trap guys fall into by showing girls that the easy way out (let's be friends) isn't acceptable.
2012-11-27 09:17:17 PM  
1 votes:
Can't I have sex and a relationship?

/would settle for either/or at this point.
2012-11-27 09:16:20 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


Yes, most men should be. I have plenty of male friends, more than I have time to stay in touch with anymore sadly. So maybe not that many these days. I've had female friends, we also frequently slept together. Hard to be friends with them anymore now that I'm married, but no one was very sad about it.
2012-11-27 09:15:38 PM  
1 votes:
Even when they're "hooking up" (a practice that is neither as novel nor as ubiquitous as wistful and censorious aging pundits imagine) these guys are engaging in the gateway behavior into what they hope will be a relationship.

Then why don't men call back after one-night stands/first date sex?

Gem from the comments: Do men JUST want sex? No. Do they choose immediate sex over a fulfilling long-term relationship? Often.

Damn right. Men often choose immediate sex, dead stop. Sorry article, still not convinced.
2012-11-27 09:15:13 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


To be fair, it is really really really hard to be friends with a girl you want to fark. (cf. Ladder Theory)

You might as well just cut your losses and walk away. Saves you time and needless amounts of blue-balled frustration.
2012-11-27 09:14:13 PM  
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.


Of course you realize that the person who put you in the 'friend zone' was yourself. You were the one who thought that you could ever be more than friends and pushed the point.
2012-11-27 09:11:56 PM  
1 votes:
The friend zone sucks. Don't ever be that guy in the friend zone. As the good man recommended above. Walk away.
2012-11-27 09:11:49 PM  
1 votes:

Ishkur:

And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load




farm2.staticflickr.com
2012-11-27 09:11:49 PM  
1 votes:

blazemongr: It's not that guys ONLY want sex.

It's just that they want sex far, far more than anything else.


No, we want variety more than you. You have no idea of the desperately perverse things men fantasize about when they have a partner who wants to make love.
2012-11-27 09:10:37 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?


It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.
2012-11-27 09:10:33 PM  
1 votes:
Were those guys answering based on base desires, or what was practically feasible? For the average guy (read: not extemely good looking and/or rich), a lot of work goes into getting a girl into bed the first time. He may want to bed every woman he comes across, but if he actually tried, he wouldn't have time for anything else and next thing he knows, he is being kicked out of school/fired, losing weight because he never has time to eat and has donuts under his eyes from lack of sleep.
2012-11-27 09:09:31 PM  
1 votes:

Pocket Ninja: Bullshiat.

Other than that, great article.



Well, it is a Jezebel link, after all...
2012-11-27 09:08:17 PM  
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty


What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?
2012-11-27 09:05:28 PM  
1 votes:
Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty
2012-11-27 08:57:37 PM  
1 votes:
It's not that guys ONLY want sex.

It's just that they want sex far, far more than anything else.
2012-11-27 08:57:22 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?


Took this thread long enough.
2012-11-27 08:55:04 PM  
1 votes:
Friend zone? Dude, I spent so much time there in my early 20's I might as well bought property and built a house.
2012-11-27 08:54:49 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?


This is when you put it in their pooper and run like hell the next day.
2012-11-27 08:53:38 PM  
1 votes:
Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?
2012-11-27 08:52:05 PM  
1 votes:
I'm fine with a relationship, so long as it includes lots of amazing sex.
2012-11-27 08:50:22 PM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: Please don't greenlight Hugo Schwyzer links.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.


Still makes more sense to take sex and relationship from this guy than an (allegedly) celibate priest.
2012-11-27 08:16:28 PM  
1 votes:

coco ebert: Fair enough. I certainly can google him and read more. I just thought it interesting to go so far as to call for someone's works to be blacklisted on a site like Fark.


That's a very good point, but hey, I think the guy IS a sociopath:

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.


And so I see no reason to give him the hits or the aplomb, OR WORSE, up his hit count to the point that it makes it safe and "good" for Jezebel and others to publish this turd.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/2011/12/19/male-feminist-hugo- s chwyzer/

If this lying sacke of shiatte really felt remorse and wanted to make amends for his unimaginably grotesque past violent behavior towards women, the way he'd do it would be to stay as far the farke away from any women as humanly possible. Schwyzer making amends for his woman-hating violent past by teaching feminsm to classrooms filled with young women is like a child molester making amends for his child-molesting past by teaching classrooms filled with little children how to protect their bodily integrity.

http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/04/paternalistic-feminism-hugo-sch w yzer/

"Herding Sluts: The Paternalistic Feminism of Hugo Schwyzer

In all his writing about this act he has never addressed its implications for his feminism - the feminism he professed when he committed the crime, or the feminism he professes today. And though he construes the story as the final dramatic act of his old life of addiction and irresponsibility, it's a story that resonates powerfully with his current public presence.

Here's how Schwyzer described his relationship to his students not long ago:

Go ahead, call me paternalistic. I'll wear that title with pride, thank you. I see my students not merely as independent, autonomous agents whom I need to empower, but as vulnerable young people whom I - and others around me - need to protect. And I still have the nerve to call myself a feminist.

This notion that feminism calls him to protect the weak - to save them from themselves, to guide them to the right path - recurs again and again in his writing. As the co-organizer of the LA Slutwalk earlier this year, he referred to his role as "Herding sluts. In the best and most responsible way." His students say he's an electrifying lecturer, but complain that he severely restricts class discussion. And he frequently conceptualizes moral behavior as a matter of denial and restriction. (He has, for instance, described feminism as a "cold pool" in which "none of us can fully immerse ourselves forever.")

I don't have any reason to believe that Hugo Schwyzer is likely to attempt another murder anytime soon. But the man who described his girlfriend as fragile and broken and in need of his sheltering strength as he plotted her death has not gone entirely away. The paternalistic impulse to save that young woman from herself - an impulse that came to him with "incredible clarity" then, one which he remembers "perfectly" today - is still in him, still driving him. It's an impulse he's redirected, but it remains unexamined, unchecked, and dangerous. (It particularly inflects and infects his writing about sexuality, about youth, and about people of color.)

Like Hugo Schwyzer, I'm a white male professor teaching history in an urban community college. Like Schwyzer, I consider myself a feminist. Like Schwyzer, I work with young people extensively outside of the classroom. And it's from that perspective that I offer him this piece of advice:

You're doing it wrong. You need to stop."
2012-11-27 08:00:29 PM  
1 votes:

coco ebert: RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.


Shorter Coco Ebert:

I have read much of what he has written.
I would need to read more to know.

But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

Whatever. It's all mostly googleable except for the parts he took down.

Do your homework, then come back and tell me how wrong I have it.
2012-11-27 07:53:48 PM  
1 votes:
RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.
2012-11-27 07:29:54 PM  
1 votes:
Hug Me To Completion is my Teddy Ruxpin tribute band.
2012-11-27 06:48:17 PM  
1 votes:
Woohoo! Friend zone thread! I was looking for something to do tonight. Come on trainwreck!

3.bp.blogspot.com
2012-11-27 06:14:30 PM  
1 votes:
A lot of these negative issues from casanova types could be greatly avoided if we simply had legalized state-regulated prostitution.

Wife/girlfriend doesn't want to have sex more then once a week/month/quarter/year but you still enjoy her companionship? Go book a pro and get your needs taken care of - winners all around.

Obviously not all guys are casnovas or inclined to that behavior, but most of us are or have been at some point in time.
2012-11-27 05:33:40 PM  
1 votes:
I ain't much on Casanova.
Me and Romeo ain't never been friends.
 
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