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I ain't much on Casanova.
Me and Romeo ain't never been friends.

I wouldn't last long in a relationship if the sex wasn't casual.

Just a few thoughts.

Smiler cites the findings of the International Sexuality Description Project which found that when asked about what they'd like to have happen in the next month, 25% of young men wanted to have two or more sexual partners in that time frame...75% of young men, despite the cultural pressures towards heterosexual male promiscuity, wanted only one (or zero) partners in the upcoming month.

No, 25 percent of young men wanted to have 2 or more sexual partners AT THE SAME TIME during that time frame. They just misunderstood the question. The other 75 percent did not entertain such aspirations because they knew it was as likely as winning Powerball. You learn to appreciate what's realistic or you die unhappy.

something that only 5% of young women admitted to wanting.

WHORES.

In Challenging Casanova, Smiler notes that heterosexual young men tend to fall into three categories: a small percentage of "players" with a high number of sexual partners;

aka, studs

an equally small percentage of young (almost always devoutly religious) dudes who are determined to remain abstinent until marriage,

aka, Jesus freaks and closeted homosexuals

and a much larger third group whom he argues want to follow "a reasonably traditional, romantic approach to dating." Even when they're "hooking up" (a practice that is neither as novel nor as ubiquitous as wistful and censorious aging pundits imagine) these guys are engaging in the gateway behavior into what they hope will be a relationship.

No, these are the guys who are saying the things they believe they need to say to get a woman into bed.

No they don't.

"I'm constantly told that the 'boys are lying' to me about what they really want," Smiler says in a phone interview. "The Casanova myth is so deeply ingrained that people are convinced that boys who claim to want relationships rather than casual sex are either incredibly rare or full of crap." The small number of genuinely promiscuous boys is explained away by absence of opportunity rather than absence of desire; the myth that most young men would be Casanovas if they could is as tenacious as it is unfounded. There seem to be few other aspects of human sexual behavior where the disconnect between reality and perception is so vast.

So..."I don't believe A is true, but everybody else does. Therefore, A is a deeply ingrained myth that is not true."

Yet Millenial guys are genuinely different in their attitudes towards sex than their Gen X and Boomer elders.

No, they've just grown up with a generation of women who are much more willing to engage in casual sex.

A substantial part of that evolution can be explained by a much-more widespread acceptance of cross-sex friendship. "Today, most boys have at least one friend who happens to be female -- a 'girl friend' but not a 'girlfriend,'"

And what percentage of these are fark buddies?

Perhaps the biggest take-away from Smiler's work is that men's sexual choices are just that, choices. Physiology and evolution may influence desires, but they don't override any man's capacity to reflect before acting. The myth of male weakness and the Casanova Complex suggest that men are ultimately powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, and that it is the responsibility of those who are less horny -- women - to cover their bodies, set healthy boundaries, and generally prevent civilization from collapsing into orgiastic chaos.

Yes. Yes, this is why things General Petraeus is still head of the CIA.

Biology hasn't changed, but boys have, and for the better. May they teach their parents well.

Bullshiat.

Other than that, great article.

A lot of these negative issues from casanova types could be greatly avoided if we simply had legalized state-regulated prostitution.

Wife/girlfriend doesn't want to have sex more then once a week/month/quarter/year but you still enjoy her companionship? Go book a pro and get your needs taken care of - winners all around.

Obviously not all guys are casnovas or inclined to that behavior, but most of us are or have been at some point in time.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

RoyBatty: As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.

As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls, when he was the designated chaperone.

In light of the above, it seems ironic that Hugo would write this:

The myth of male weakness and the Casanova Complex suggest that men are ultimately powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, and that it is the responsibility of those who are less horny -- women - to cover their bodies, set healthy boundaries, and generally prevent civilization from collapsing into orgiastic chaos. Young men today don't have any less testosterone than did their dads, but when it comes to sex, they're thinking and acting differently. Biology hasn't changed, but boys have, and for the better. May they teach their parents well.

Of all the people that have claimed to be powerless in the face of their sexual impulses, Hugo by his own admitted behaviors has to be at the top of that list.

Don't greenlight Hugo Schywzer, the guy is a sociopath.

Pocket Ninja: Smiler cites the findings of the International Sexuality Description Project which found that when asked about what they'd like to have happen in the next month, 25% of young men wanted to have two or more sexual partners in that time frame...75% of young men, despite the cultural pressures towards heterosexual male promiscuity, wanted only one (or zero) partners in the upcoming month.

No, 25 percent of young men wanted to have 2 or more sexual partners AT THE SAME TIME during that time frame. They just misunderstood the question. The other 75 percent did not entertain such aspirations because they knew it was as likely as winning Powerball. You learn to appreciate what's realistic or you die unhappy.
something that only 5% of young women admitted to wanting.
WHORES.

This got a rather loud lol from me. Not too many people in the office at this point, making it rather conspicuous.

Woohoo! Friend zone thread! I was looking for something to do tonight. Come on trainwreck!

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?

Hug Me To Completion is my Teddy Ruxpin tribute band.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?

It depends on what you mean by "owned up" and "explored them in his work".

Everything I wrote is based on multiple blog postings he wrote. So if owned up means he wrote it, then yes, he owned up.

"Explored them in his work" means rationalized them, and blamed men, culture, and the Patriarchy for his personal behaviors.

So he has never owned up to any of it, if owned up admits taking full responsibility and/or admitting his behavior was wrong or needed changing. And he has since purged his blogs of many of his original postings.

Here he has purged his blog of the entire category of teacher-student-sexual-relationships.

So at Feministe he is asked about the chaperoning and he condemns it, but states how it has made him a better person and better able to see the faults of power in anyone sexual relationships. It's never "I was wrong, period", it's "I failed in the same way all (men) fail".

But Hugo has fallen so many many times and in such bizarre and clear ways while at the same time proclaiming himself to be the uber-feminist that I can't take his cry that he is just one of the guys seriously.

CT: You have a somewhat controversial sexual history. You've openly acknowledged doing things as intense as chaperoning a class trip on which you slept with four of the students. How does this influence your thinking about sexuality today?

HS: Hah, I love the ambiguity of the word "intense." In terms of my sexual history with my students (which for the sake of clarification ended abruptly when I got sober in '98), the key word is simply "unethical." Though my promiscuity was hardly confined to my own students, that behavior stands out as deeply and profoundly wrong. Even if it was consensual, and involved students who for the most part were my approximate chronological peers, it was still a boundary violation. In the broader sense, that aspect of my past has made me keenly sensitive to power imbalances in sexual relationships. It's made me mistrustful of the possibility of consent in those instances where one person has so much more experience and authority than the other.

And he doesn't write of how he tried to kill his girlfriend, he writes of how depressed he was, and what a terrible life he had been living and oh by the way, while trying to kill himself (by exploding the house IIRC), his girlfriend was in the other room.

And he doesn't write that the deception of the man was wrong, he writes he was correct to deceive the guy, because Hugo was not ready to be a father, and he writes that it is still correct to deceive the guy.

In most cases in his writing he takes some terrible behavior he has committed and if he does admit such behavior was wrong, he doesn't take personal responsibility for it, instead he places responsibility for it on all men, and on the Patriarchy.

This is why feminists loved him up until just about a year ago when the attempted murder of his girlfriend became more widely known.

Sorry, I know this rambled.

The Friend Zone is like a black hole or submitter's mom's vagina. Once someone's in there, they never leave.

RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.

coco ebert: RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.

Shorter Coco Ebert:

I have read much of what he has written.
I would need to read more to know.

But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

Whatever. It's all mostly googleable except for the parts he took down.

Do your homework, then come back and tell me how wrong I have it.

RoyBatty: coco ebert: RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.

Shorter Coco Ebert:

I have NOT read much of what he has written.
I would need to read more to know.

But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

FTFM with an important not.

Seriously, if you admit to not reading Hugo much, well maybe before coming in to defend the guy, you should take the time to read him and his critics.

Or, when you ask a question,

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?

Save the time for everyone and admit you're making a statement and don't actually want an answer.

RoyBatty: coco ebert: RoyBatty

I can't speak to anything he wrote about the incident with his girlfriend, but nothing in what you posted of what he's written strikes me as sociopathic. He's talking about power imbalances between professors and students and how he f*cked up. I have to read more of what he wrote instead of relying on your insight. Your blanket characterization of feminism (that feminists only like him because he blames all his faults on patriarchy) makes me a bit more skeptical of your interpretation of him.

Shorter Coco Ebert:

I have read much of what he has written.
I would need to read more to know.

But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

Whatever. It's all mostly googleable except for the parts he took down.

Do your homework, then come back and tell me how wrong I have it.

Fair enough. I certainly can google him and read more. I just thought it interesting to go so far as to call for someone's works to be blacklisted on a site like Fark.

coco ebert: Fair enough. I certainly can google him and read more. I just thought it interesting to go so far as to call for someone's works to be blacklisted on a site like Fark.

That's a very good point, but hey, I think the guy IS a sociopath:

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

And so I see no reason to give him the hits or the aplomb, OR WORSE, up his hit count to the point that it makes it safe and "good" for Jezebel and others to publish this turd.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/2011/12/19/male-feminist-hugo- s chwyzer/

If this lying sacke of shiatte really felt remorse and wanted to make amends for his unimaginably grotesque past violent behavior towards women, the way he'd do it would be to stay as far the farke away from any women as humanly possible. Schwyzer making amends for his woman-hating violent past by teaching feminsm to classrooms filled with young women is like a child molester making amends for his child-molesting past by teaching classrooms filled with little children how to protect their bodily integrity.

http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/04/paternalistic-feminism-hugo-sch w yzer/

"Herding Sluts: The Paternalistic Feminism of Hugo Schwyzer

In all his writing about this act he has never addressed its implications for his feminism - the feminism he professed when he committed the crime, or the feminism he professes today. And though he construes the story as the final dramatic act of his old life of addiction and irresponsibility, it's a story that resonates powerfully with his current public presence.

Here's how Schwyzer described his relationship to his students not long ago:

Go ahead, call me paternalistic. I'll wear that title with pride, thank you. I see my students not merely as independent, autonomous agents whom I need to empower, but as vulnerable young people whom I - and others around me - need to protect. And I still have the nerve to call myself a feminist.

This notion that feminism calls him to protect the weak - to save them from themselves, to guide them to the right path - recurs again and again in his writing. As the co-organizer of the LA Slutwalk earlier this year, he referred to his role as "Herding sluts. In the best and most responsible way." His students say he's an electrifying lecturer, but complain that he severely restricts class discussion. And he frequently conceptualizes moral behavior as a matter of denial and restriction. (He has, for instance, described feminism as a "cold pool" in which "none of us can fully immerse ourselves forever.")

I don't have any reason to believe that Hugo Schwyzer is likely to attempt another murder anytime soon. But the man who described his girlfriend as fragile and broken and in need of his sheltering strength as he plotted her death has not gone entirely away. The paternalistic impulse to save that young woman from herself - an impulse that came to him with "incredible clarity" then, one which he remembers "perfectly" today - is still in him, still driving him. It's an impulse he's redirected, but it remains unexamined, unchecked, and dangerous. (It particularly inflects and infects his writing about sexuality, about youth, and about people of color.)

Like Hugo Schwyzer, I'm a white male professor teaching history in an urban community college. Like Schwyzer, I consider myself a feminist. Like Schwyzer, I work with young people extensively outside of the classroom. And it's from that perspective that I offer him this piece of advice:

You're doing it wrong. You need to stop."

Pocket Ninja: Bullshiat.

Other than that, great article.

I know everyone enjoys your playful trolling/mockery, but I actually like your serious posts more.

I read that as Castlevania. I can't be the only one.

It's a Trap!: Woohoo! Friend zone thread! I was looking for something to do tonight. Come on trainwreck!

I think this girl at work wants me bad. Do I buy her TotalFark?

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

Still makes more sense to take sex and relationship from this guy than an (allegedly) celibate priest.

I'll say whatever you want. What do you want me to say to you?

I'm fine with a relationship, so long as it includes lots of amazing sex.

Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

This is when you put it in their pooper and run like hell the next day.

Friend zone? Dude, I spent so much time there in my early 20's I might as well bought property and built a house.

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

It's not that guys ONLY want sex.

It's just that they want sex far, far more than anything else.

Rev. Skarekroe: I ain't much on Casanova.
Me and Romeo ain't never been friends.

Came here for this! Yay!

RoyBatty: coco ebert: Fair enough. I certainly can google him and read more. I just thought it interesting to go so far as to call for someone's works to be blacklisted on a site like Fark.

That's a very good point, but hey, I think the guy IS a sociopath:

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

And so I see no reason to give him the hits or the aplomb, OR WORSE, up his hit count to the point that it makes it safe and "good" for Jezebel and others to publish this turd.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/2011/12/19/male-feminist-hugo- s chwyzer/

If this lying sacke of shiatte really felt remorse and wanted to make amends for his unimaginably grotesque past violent behavior towards women, the way he'd do it would be to stay as far the farke away from any women as humanly possible. Schwyzer making amends for his woman-hating violent past by teaching feminsm to classrooms filled with young women is like a child molester making amends for his child-molesting past by teaching classrooms filled with little children how to protect their bodily integrity.

http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/04/paternalistic-feminism-hugo-sch w yzer/

"Herding Sluts: The Paternalistic Feminism of Hugo Schwyzer

In all his writing about this act he has never addressed its implications for his feminism - the feminism he professed when he committed the crime, or the feminism he professes today. And though he construes the story as the final dramatic act of his old life of addiction and irresponsibility, it's a story that resonates powerfully with his current public presence.

Here's how Schw ...

Why do you hate this guy so much? Did he fark your wife or something?

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

Women are so stupid, they actually think their "guy friends" are just friends, instead of creepy losers waiting for them to fall asleep drunk on the couch one night after putt-putt so they can fingerbang them and take photos while doing it. "Josh is so nice, he's always there when I need him, he even let slept on the couch and let me sleep in his bed when I was too drunk to drive home last Tuesday. I don't remember putting my underwear on inside out, though, it must have happened during the night when I went to the bathroom."

The Angry Hand of God: AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

This is when you put it in their pooper and run like hell the next day.

LOL. No, but really. I love her too much to take advantage of her in that situation.

/Reddit strikes again!

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?' Then the very next day they're back with the asshole.

You gonna tell me that they are the ones who are getting duped by Casanovas?

Women for the most part have low self esteem. It comes from growing up being teased by other girls, mostly. So when a guy is nice and thinks they are nice, they're suspicious. It's the guys that treat them like crap that "see them as they really are" and so don't have illusions to be shattered. The well adjusted girls are already in relationships, they tend to have their shiat together.

Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

RoyBatty: But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

You're coming off a little obsessed on the subject. To say nothing of paranoid.

Skarekrough: Friend zone? Dude, I spent so much time there in my early 20's I might as well bought property and built a house.

Please, I have a fortress of solitude there... The lonely road out of it is full of sharp rocks, tho.

CygnusDarius: Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Just walk away...

CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

Few people know what they want at 18. They know it's hard and she's pretty.

The idea is to find someone you enjoy time with in and out of the sack, or wherever you like to do it.

Anyway, I got Casanova beat on #s.
Not a player tho, you don't have to lie to get in a horny girls pants. I didn't anyway.
And I never cheated.
Most of them I thought, maybe this is that special girl.

I know for sure after sleeping with a woman if I like her. Because if I do I want to hang around, if I don't, I find myself throwing my clothes on and running out the door.

Elzar: A lot of these negative issues from casanova types could be greatly avoided if we simply had legalized state-regulated prostitution.

Wife/girlfriend doesn't want to have sex more then once a week/month/quarter/year but you still enjoy her companionship? Go book a pro and get your needs taken care of - winners all around.

Obviously not all guys are casnovas or inclined to that behavior, but most of us are or have been at some point in time.

I can think of few things worse than state regulated prostitution.

fta: The new research about young men and romance is hard to accept because the emerging trend of "caring, romantic boys" doesn't gibe with our experiences of an older generation of men. [link goes to stat about teen pregnancies being down]

There is no trend. Teen pregnancies are down because of the availability of contraception and accessibility of pornography, not because teen boys are caring and understanding. In fact, the reverse is true, and again, its because of pornography:

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teen girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education.

Pocket Ninja: Bullshiat.

Other than that, great article.

Well, it is a Jezebel link, after all...

Were those guys answering based on base desires, or what was practically feasible? For the average guy (read: not extemely good looking and/or rich), a lot of work goes into getting a girl into bed the first time. He may want to bed every woman he comes across, but if he actually tried, he wouldn't have time for anything else and next thing he knows, he is being kicked out of school/fired, losing weight because he never has time to eat and has donuts under his eyes from lack of sleep.

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Ishkur: fta: The new research about young men and romance is hard to accept because the emerging trend of "caring, romantic boys" doesn't gibe with our experiences of an older generation of men. [link goes to stat about teen pregnancies being down]

There is no trend. Teen pregnancies are down because of the availability of contraception and accessibility of pornography, not because teen boys are caring and understanding. In fact, the reverse is true, and again, its because of pornography:

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teen girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education.

Go on...

BarkingUnicorn: I wouldn't last long in a relationship if the sex wasn't casual.

Really? Because if the sex is frenetic and anxiety-filled, it would only come in number two on the list of "greatest things", right after "casual sex".

blazemongr: It's not that guys ONLY want sex.

It's just that they want sex far, far more than anything else.

No, we want variety more than you. You have no idea of the desperately perverse things men fantasize about when they have a partner who wants to make love.

Ishkur:

And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load

The friend zone sucks. Don't ever be that guy in the friend zone. As the good man recommended above. Walk away.

Casanova would have never gotten laid if he had gone by the English version of his name, Jack Newhouse.

Chicks are suckers for that Dago shiat.

/Changed my name from Whitehouse to Casablanca...oh man...it really works.

Oh my - yes men are emotional too. Big surprise there. But I'm sorry - given the opportunity to get it on, I don't know many guys that would say no to that, emotional commitment there or not.

Now if you really want an insight into it, I suggest you google Ladder Theory.

I'm asexual, so I have no choice. :-|

I prefer having one beautiful, sexy, and emotionally stable girlfriend than infinite beautiful and sexy women who lack mental stability. Better alive than dead.

Now that I think about it, every girl I've dated for over a year started with sex on the first "date". I don't do friend zone.

CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Of course you realize that the person who put you in the 'friend zone' was yourself. You were the one who thought that you could ever be more than friends and pushed the point.

There is a big difference between "friends" and "just friends"

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

To be fair, it is really really really hard to be friends with a girl you want to fark. (cf. Ladder Theory)

You might as well just cut your losses and walk away. Saves you time and needless amounts of blue-balled frustration.

RoyBatty: The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

What's his Fark handle?

GreenSun: I prefer having one beautiful, sexy, and emotionally stable girlfriend than infinite beautiful and sexy women who lack mental stability. Better alive than dead.

Every man dies. Not every man really lives.

Even when they're "hooking up" (a practice that is neither as novel nor as ubiquitous as wistful and censorious aging pundits imagine) these guys are engaging in the gateway behavior into what they hope will be a relationship.

Then why don't men call back after one-night stands/first date sex?

Gem from the comments: Do men JUST want sex? No. Do they choose immediate sex over a fulfilling long-term relationship? Often.

Damn right. Men often choose immediate sex, dead stop. Sorry article, still not convinced.

Hugo Schwyzer is a real turd. Just a pseudo-intellectual, hypocritical clown. I loves it when Dan Savage tore him apart.

AverageAmericanGuy: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Of course you realize that the person who put you in the 'friend zone' was yourself. You were the one who thought that you could ever be more than friends and pushed the point.

Which is the cause of about 90% of the friendzones.

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

Yes, most men should be. I have plenty of male friends, more than I have time to stay in touch with anymore sadly. So maybe not that many these days. I've had female friends, we also frequently slept together. Hard to be friends with them anymore now that I'm married, but no one was very sad about it.

Can't I have sex and a relationship?

/would settle for either/or at this point.

I don't really want multiple sex partners, but I must admit, sexually I was happiest when I was in college and had a new girlfriend every 4-5 months.

AverageAmericanGuy:
What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It's selfish to keep yourself on the same level as someone you admire? As he said, the relationship changed - it's not even a friendship anymore. It's something more or it's not.

We need more CygnusDarius's, really. Would break the friend zone trap guys fall into by showing girls that the easy way out (let's be friends) isn't acceptable.

'Friendzoned' is a nice way of saying 'unattractive'.

CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes so long for individual guys to figure that out. It took me like a decade. We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.

AverageAmericanGuy: CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.

Well, you can't help it because what you see in the media is that most That's why marriage can only be applied if a person is more spiritual than usual.

CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

taurusowner: But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

Excellent point. The only outcomes are both wins, and you've probably actually got a better chance of hooking up with her if you show some sack.

Well, sometimes we DO just want sex. But sometimes we want more.
I fail to see why these are mutually exclusive options.
If the point is that men don't want casual sex *exclusively* then yeah, sure. Everyone at some point is interested in deep, long-term companionship. But even for guys in his "3rd group", not every hook-up is an attempt or practice round for starting up a relationship. Sometimes we DO just want to slut around, and there's nothing wrong with that.

LazerFish: There is a big difference between "friends" and "just friends"

Just friends is worse than mortal enemies. Enemies can't ruin your day by doing nothing. The have to try hard and succeed to do that. Just friends, though, can only do one thing to not ruin your day. Everything else they do or do not do hits you where it hurts.

If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

I'm no expert on this guy, but hasn't he owned up to those things and explored them in his work?

Thereby profiting from them again while publicly embarrassing everybody else involved?

Thisbymaster: Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.

Sorry to hear that your female friends are so terrible to you.

Or that you have such a low opinion of women.

Whichever. Sorry to hear it.

Ishkur: And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deep throat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them.

Ishkur:
Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

That's a nice, juicy intelligent post you have there, with the above being my personal favorite. You really hit the nail on the head for behavior I've seen. Welcome to my favorites list. :)

harrydorcas: Well, you can't help it because what you see in the media is that most rich and successful men prefer farking various women than one. That's why marriage can only be applied if a person is more ugly, broke, or dysfunctional than usual.

Fixed that for ya. And I'm not judging, it's just a fact that most people get married because they figure they can't do any better and might as well anchor down whatever piece of ass they're with at the time. This is also why the divorce rate it so high - one of the partners in the marriage changes status, either loses weight, gets fake boobs, gets a better-paying job, etc. and then realizes they can "do better."

There are always the exceptions though, the two mature, well-adjusted adults who marry for the right reasons and realize that it's a lifelong job and are prepared to see it through.

wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Throwing a tantrum would be saying things about her in her back, and act like a complete dick infront of her. My way is taking the god-damned high road. She doesn't want you, and no one likes to be treated like a second-grade person. You cut the problem in the bud, she doesn't see you again, you get self-respect, everyone's a winner.

One piece of advice I wish I knew in my 20s - the thing that gets you into one girl's pants will stick you in the "friend zone" with another.

bleeding_heart_fascist: [www.manipudating.com image 580x307]

This is by far the most import work ever published on the internet. Just because it is funny does not make it any less true.

BarkingUnicorn: I wouldn't last long in a relationship if the sex wasn't casual.

I'd quit my job if it wasn't.

hundreddollarman: One piece of advice I wish I knew in my 20s - the thing that gets you into one girl's pants will stick you in the "friend zone" with another.

How would ruphees ever get you in the friend zone??

Sex doesn't interest me like it did when I was in college. In fact, casual sex has never interested me. I need that mental stimulation along with the physical. Getting laid is not a challenge, it's finding someone worth wanting to lay. I can go out and get laid fairly easy, but it's just not worth the energy and time. I'd rather do other, more meaningful, things.

taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes ...

Bingo.

Fell for that exact same shiat growing up. Got abused for it as well.

Of course, I didn't get much play one way or the other. Just not good looking enough for women to want to fark. Now I'm married, and my wife constantly claims otherwise, but she's got no supporting evidence. I always tell her that she's just giving me the "Mom's Opinion." Never trust the opinion of a female that is emotionally invested - her perception is skewed.

Same goes for males as well, but that's usually reserved for things like cars and boats and secretaries.

BuckTurgidson: [everythingfunny.org image 540x450]

If this is true, it is a small minority and I applaud and approve of that :').

I'd much rather have a meaningful relationship instead of casual sex.

That said, if casual sex comes around, I'm sure as hell not going to turn it down.

Gawdzila: Sometimes we DO just want to slut around, and there's nothing wrong with that.

CygnusDarius: wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Throwing a tantrum would be saying things about her in her back, and act like a complete dick infront of her. My way is taking the god-damned high road. She doesn't want you, and no one likes to be treated like a second-grade person. You cut the problem in the bud, she doesn't see you again, you get self-respect, everyone's a winner.

This. As someone rightly mentioned up-thread, the friendzone is more than just his/her disinterest in you; it's someone who uses leverages their position to use the other person.

BarkingUnicorn: I wouldn't last long in a relationship if the sex wasn't casual.

Is it still "casual sex" if I'm wearing a Chippendale's collar, or would that be "formal sex?"

taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. But it takes so long for individual guys to figure that out. It took me like a decade. We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.

And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.

Kuroshin: taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. ...

gym, 26 minutes, etc

/sigh

pxlboy: Kuroshin: taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relat ...

oops, wrong post.

blipponaut: Sex doesn't interest me like it did when I was in college. In fact, casual sex has never interested me. I need that mental stimulation along with the physical. Getting laid is not a challenge, it's finding someone worth wanting to lay. I can go out and get laid fairly easy, but it's just not worth the energy and time. I'd rather do other, more meaningful, things.

*This* is what I meant to reply to.

Don't you have to be at the gym, etc?

AverageAmericanGuy: Thisbymaster: Friendzone isn't a friendship, it is master and slave. That sort of relationship is destructive to the slave while the woman couldn't care less and will continue to abuse the slave because they see nothing wrong with it. It is best to get your feelings out in the open and be done with it. It forces you to stop lying to yourself, to face the reality that you can't earn attraction no matter what you do.

Sorry to hear that your female friends are so terrible to you.

Or that you have such a low opinion of women.

Whichever. Sorry to hear it.

Give it up. She's not going to sleep with you.

Wait...who are you White Knighting again?

Seriously. You're calling out people for being honest with themselves and others. Not everybody needs to be friends with every last person they meet. If there's attraction there, it causes trouble for at least one of the people involved. Life is too short and there are too many other people in the world to bother clinging to that person who makes you feel uncomfortable.

Butthurted: bleeding_heart_fascist: [www.manipudating.com image 580x307]

This is by far the most import work ever published on the internet. Just because it is funny does not make it any less true.

I tried to read it - got as far as the pie charts and gave up at the badly-disguised misogyny claiming to be based on actual research instead of the writer's persecution complex.

/it's not that funny either.

Need_MindBleach: If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

balisane: And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.

Oh, I've seen it. It's terrible, once I almost did it, recoiled in horror when I realized it. So we dated a while, and it was, surprisingly, great. However, she got a scholarship abroad in Canada. We talked for a while in Skype, and then she found someone there. You just have to let go, sometimes.

swahnhennessy: RoyBatty: But I do know your characterizations of him are wrong and make me suspect you.

You're coming off a little obsessed on the subject. To say nothing of paranoid.

Really?

Because I posted four pretty obnoxious, misogynistic, pathological things that he has done, Coco Ebert asked me if he hadn't owned up to that, I pointed out no, he hadn't, she said she didn't really know the guy but doubted my explanation of why feminists liked him, I said fine, google it, and that makes me obsessed and paranoid?

Okay.

pxlboy: gym, 26 minutes, etc

pxlboy: oops, wrong post.

LOL, heh, I was wondering about that. :)

Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

RoyBatty: Hugo Schwyzer

Yeah yeah; the guy is an astonishingly creepy douche who's figured out he can take advantage of his female students and avoid losing his pro-feminism cred by blaming "the patriarchy" for it. He wrote the article, but he didn't have anything to do with the study or with the book.

Seth'n'Spectrum: Need_MindBleach: If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

I think I am one of those people who is completely incapable of flirting. Just can't fathom it. It's easier to imagine non-existence than to flirt.

Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Gunther: Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

This is Fark. How many one-night-stands do you think the average Farker has under their belt?

/I keed
//but only a little

Kuroshin: pxlboy: gym, 26 minutes, etc

pxlboy: oops, wrong post.

LOL, heh, I was wondering about that. :)

The page refreshed and I clicked the wrong button. Anyway, it's all in good fun.

I was the friendzoned betafag (in the 4chan parlance) in high school. I got over it and realized that anyone willing to keep me at arms' length like that doesn't respect me and isn't worth my time.

Exactly how much action am I going to get if I leave my copy of "A Natural History of Rape" out on the table?

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

Kuroshin: Gunther: Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

This is Fark. How many one-night-stands do you think the average Farker has under their belt?

/I keed
//but only a little

We're not all basement-dwelling neckbeards lacking basic hygiene and the ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex.

My problem with the dreaded Friendzone was this: In school , I was terribly shy. I had no illusions that my female friends wanted anything more than friendship, so I never made a move. It wasn't until I started hearing things like this:

that I even CONSIDERED asking them out. I had no concept of the Friendzone. I thought they actually liked me. So I'd work up the courage to ask them out, and get shot down. Meanwhile, they go off and get with a guy who treats them like crap.

Now, I can be friends with women without trying to break through the barrier. I was friends with a gorgeous woman I worked with, and never made a move because I was married and she was way out of my league. She later thanked me for being one of the only guys she knew that didn't try to get into her pants.

Waffle waffle waffle.
Never have I seen so many words that said so little.

Hugo Schwyzer, eh? Well I guess Ira Einhorn wasn't available for comment.

Shedim: Butthurted: bleeding_heart_fascist: [www.manipudating.com image 580x307]

This is by far the most import work ever published on the internet. Just because it is funny does not make it any less true.

I tried to read it - got as far as the pie charts and gave up at the badly-disguised misogyny claiming to be based on actual research instead of the writer's persecution complex.

/it's not that funny either.

Wow, rough day there pal? Well, relax, sit back. You know, it's not all peer reviews and serious bid'ness here. You didn't like the link? That's fine, just have a nice calming cup of tea and wait a few minutes. I am sure something will come along and appeal to your higher standards. In the mean time, try to remember, the next time you don't find something as funny as someone else, feel free to close the link and shut the fark up. If you still feel the need to proclaim your profound sense of disappointment, by all means do so, in fact I will give you a few minutes right now while I go look for the Fark I give about your opinion.

/Nope, it's not here

CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

Based on what I have seen her post in years past, I'd not sure if she's lying or is really that oblivious.

I've had this problem with woman before. When I was younger I had trouble with getting out of the friends zone with woman. When I got older I had trouble out of the friends with benefits zone with woman.

Sounds silly to say and I've got guy friends who are absolutely baffled why I would want any different. Funnily enough my female friends seem to better understand the whole friends with benefits idea better. One explained it to me as 'you find a guy that you feel safe with and enjoy having sex with, your going to keep going back to that guy, even if your not ready for a relationship'.

You know what, I always used to think I wanted a relationship. I have one now, and sometimes all I can think about is what I missed out on by not dating. I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner. Everyone claims monogamy, but they also drool over celebrities. If we were truly monogamous no one would have lists of celebrities they can sleep with, because no one would want to sleep with anyone but their partner.

To all the people saying you should accept the friend zone: It's debatable really. The options are:

1) Accept it. Keep longing for her every time she's around. Keep getting sad when she leaves. Eventually do something stupid that ruins the friendship.

2) End the friendship. This is not a tantrum, as someone suggested earlier. Ending a friendship for any reason is a decision, and if a person thinks they will be happier without a friendship then it is actually the responsible choice to make.

3) This is the hard one, but it's the "non-dickish" way to handle it without the pain. Stop desiring the woman, then you can remain her friend without the pain.

The problem with 3 is that it can be really difficult. The type of man who gets friend zoned is NOT the type of man who has a lot of sexual partners. He likes someone, and that's all he knows. The person who can stop desiring that women is the kind of guy who can just pick up the next girl he sees. There's no longing because he moves on.

Oh wait, here we are reading an article about how men supposedly want only one partner. An article stating most men are the kind of guy who gets friend-zoned, longs after a woman, and never gets anywhere and only gets hurt.

In other words, most guys really only have options 1 or 2. If they have the self-confidence for 3 they aren't friend zoned, because they can easily and happily just move on.

Butthurted: Wow, rough day there pal? Well, relax, sit back. You know, it's not all peer reviews and serious bid'ness here. You didn't like the link? That's fine, just have a nice calming cup of tea and wait a few minutes. I am sure something will come along and appeal to your higher standards. In the mean time, try to remember, the next time you don't find something as funny as someone else, feel free to close the link and shut the fark up. If you still feel the need to proclaim your profound sense of disappointment, by all means do so, in fact I will give you a few minutes right now while I go look for the Fark I give about your opinion.

/Nope, it's not here

OK, I laughed at that. Thanks.

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

Aren't they also willing to do so? Selfishly keeping their sex to themselves instead of giving it up to save the friendship? If they don't care, why should I?

Seth'n'Spectrum: Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

This. Women are fantastic. I like to think they feel the same way about us. But my guy friends want to shoot guns, build shiat, play video games and be goodhearted assholes to each other all while drinking. They also used to like to chase women, but nearly all are married now. Most (note: I'm sure there are ladies out there who break the mold) of the women I've known are not into these same activities. We can work together, even enjoy each other's company, but I'd hesitate to call any of them my friends. Does that make me a misogynist?

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

9/10.

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

In my humble experience there's been plenty of female friends I'd love to get out of the "friendzone" with, but then after a few weeks of whoring around I'd want to go right back to being "just friends."

For me to want a relationship a woman needs to be laid back, nerdy, appreciate me being a huge nerd, have an interest in at least 1 sport and not be too far from me politically. Honestly at that point I'm pretty flexible with looks.

Shedim: Butthurted: Wow, rough day there pal? Well, relax, sit back. You know, it's not all peer reviews and serious bid'ness here. You didn't like the link? That's fine, just have a nice calming cup of tea and wait a few minutes. I am sure something will come along and appeal to your higher standards. In the mean time, try to remember, the next time you don't find something as funny as someone else, feel free to close the link and shut the fark up. If you still feel the need to proclaim your profound sense of disappointment, by all means do so, in fact I will give you a few minutes right now while I go look for the Fark I give about your opinion.

/Nope, it's not here

OK, I laughed at that. Thanks.

My work is done here..

pxlboy: CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

Based on what I have seen her post in years past, I'd not sure if she's lying or is really that oblivious.

Well, I haven't seen her in a while, that's why I said that.

I've never been Friend Zoned, but I have been Roomate Zoned. It's easy to get through the Roomate Zone, it just takes alcohol. You do need to be good at finding a new place to live though...

"Jenni" might be asexual, but that doesn't mean they don't have sex. Or maybe he has her permission to be polyamorous. There are some unique relationships out there.

Ishkur:
And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education.

Who exactly are these semiadolescent bogans? Even as a stupid undersexed teen I knew that porn and actual sex were gratifying in different ways and that most stuff in porn was unlikely to be replicated IRL. Then again I wouldn't have raped anyone either, a qualification many teenage boys cannot claim.

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

Based on what I have seen her post in years past, I'd not sure if she's lying or is really that oblivious.

Well, I haven't seen her in a while, that's why I said that.

Good point. And here I thought she was gone from Fark for good..

Gunther: Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

Its cuz your testosterone drops severely after age 25, and you feel less rambunctious about getting laid. Also, you've more than likely been around the block a few times so the female vaginal area no longer has the same mystique as it did when you were 16, so you can afford to be choosey (and know when to back away from women who aren't worth it).

Or, as Neil Stephenson put it: "Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfarker in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad."

Occam's Disposable Razor: Seth'n'Spectrum: Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

This. Women are fantastic. I like to think they feel the same way about us. But my guy friends want to shoot guns, build shiat, play video games and be goodhearted assholes to each other all while drinking. They also used to like to chase women, but nearly all are married now. Most (note: I'm sure there are ladies out there who break the mold) of the women I've known are not into these same activities. We can work together, even enjoy each other's company, but I'd hesitate to call any of them my friends. Does that make me a misogynist?

Separate but equal, right? Gimme a farking break.

I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.

pxlboy: Kuroshin: Gunther: Am I the only one who thought it was an interesting article? You hit 25 or so, and one night stands suddenly seem like too much work.

This is Fark. How many one-night-stands do you think the average Farker has under their belt?

/I keed
//but only a little

We're not all basement-dwelling neckbeards lacking basic hygiene and the ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex.

THIS DOES NOT FIT THE NARRATIVE! ABORT! ABORT!

/besides, that's Reddit

I'm getting a kick, etc.

I got friend zoned in a serious cohabiting relationship.

/CSB

wedun: what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Look, if you go to the store to buy some oranges, and they don't have any oranges, do you leave or do you wait around hoping that someday they'll have oranges? If you're a man, you go to another store and get some oranges. If you're a wimp-ass pussy you wait around with a hangdog sheepish expression on your face hinting around that you want oranges for months until they get sick of it and kick you out. Which would you rather be? Your choice.

AverageAmericanGuy: I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.

Those are the Fark Independents of the Politics Tab. Let us not summon them here, lest they show up.

I choose bananas.

AverageAmericanGuy: Occam's Disposable Razor: Seth'n'Spectrum: Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

This. Women are fantastic. I like to think they feel the same way about us. But my guy friends want to shoot guns, build shiat, play video games and be goodhearted assholes to each other all while drinking. They also used to like to chase women, but nearly all are married now. Most (note: I'm sure there are ladies out there who break the mold) of the women I've known are not into these same activities. We can work together, even enjoy each other's company, but I'd hesitate to call any of them my friends. Does that make me a misogynist?

Separate but equal, right? Gimme a farking break.

I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.

Account created: 2010-11-15 17:56:17

You haven't been around long enough. It's always been this way.

/been lurking since 2000
//spent most of my time over at /.

untaken_name: wedun: what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Look, if you go to the store to buy some oranges, and they don't have any oranges, do you leave or do you wait around hoping that someday they'll have oranges? If you're a man, you go to another store and get some oranges. If you're a wimp-ass pussy you wait around with a hangdog sheepish expression on your face hinting around that you want oranges for months until they get sick of it and kick you out. Which would you rather be? Your choice.

golfclap.gif

Besides, the worse thing you can do to a woman -and yourself- is to be a dick. We've all seem them, and the last thing the world needs is another Patrick Bateman.

thesloppy: Exactly how much action am I going to get if I leave my copy of "A Natural History of Rape" out on the table?

Put 20 locks on the front door. Lock some, leave others open.
Put bars on the windows.
Hide anything that could be used as a weapon.

Watch her freak out trying to get out.
Trying to figure out which way to turn the locks.
"Awww, Did you want me to unlock the door for you?"

Then you find out she has a black belt.
And she has a penis.

untaken_name: wedun: what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Look, if you go to the store to buy some oranges, and they don't have any oranges, do you leave or do you wait around hoping that someday they'll have oranges? If you're a man, you go to another store and get some oranges. If you're a wimp-ass pussy you wait around with a hangdog sheepish expression on your face hinting around that you want oranges for months until they get sick of it and kick you out. Which would you rather be? Your choice.

You have a point, but what if you really like the oranges the first store has? I mean what if the first store has huge, juicy, ripe oranges and the other stores have shriveled, desiccated oranges with nasty seeds and. gasp, bugs? Sometimes, when you find the right oranges, you really don't want another store's oranges. I mean even if you decided to go to store two and purchase their inferior, pulpy, moldy oranges, you would never really enjoy them because you would be thinking about store one's oranges the whole time. Than a few weeks later, as you are walking down the street with the nasty, sour, unripe orange bits still stuck between your teeth, you will see another guy, a real scum bag guy that you knew from that time you went to a party with your cousin in that town 20 minutes from your town, and he will be walking out of store one with YOUR ORANGES!!!! Sometimes you have to be patient in order to get the oranges that you want.

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Not likely. Even if they aren't _romantically_ interested in you they would like to have sex with you. Unless they are gay, and even then they'd probably go for it during a dry patch.

Point is, just because you don't KNOW they are interested in you doesn't mean they aren't interested. Just means they haven't told you for whatever reason.

Every time this thread comes up there's a bunch of guys on here talking about how cruel and insensitive women/girls are for friend-zoning them - as if it's some intentional plot to use, manipulate, or hurt guys. It's really not. Now I'm sure there are some girls out there who take advantage of their friend-zoned guys or treat them poorly. However, I think in a lot of these situations girls actually think that the guy just wants to be their friend, or they're at least hoping he doesn't like her (assuming she doesn't like him). When the big reveal happens where he tells her he likes her then she gives him the option of being a friend or being nothing. That isn't cruel, that's being honest with you. She doesn't like you. It sucks, but what is she supposed to do? If you continue to be her friend at that point, that's on you. She shouldn't lead you on by flirting with you, but I doubt that's what's happening in most these situations.

I've been the friend-zoner and the zonee and I know how much it can suck from both sides if you are interested in the person, but people just need to chill and realize that not everyone is out to hurt them.

Also, men and women can be just friends. There just probably isn't any mutual sexual attraction between them. Women will always be friends with ugly guys, and some guys will be friends with ugly girls that they're not attracted to. Some guys see that as a waste of time, and some just like to hang out with a cool chick that they have no sexual interest in. To each their own. It is possible though.

untaken_name: Which would you rather be? Your choice.

I usually just go on the internet and whack off to pictures of oranges.

So to speak.

AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

No, he's being honest with himself and her about what he wants from his relationship with her. His feeling about her isn't going to change, and her feeling about him won't either. Hanging around and wishing for things to change doesn't help anyone, and it is not a friendship -- it is a relationship where only one person is getting what they want out of it. It only breeds festering resentment as you have to look in on their relationships with other guys. You know, like this:
AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat. Then they come running to me over and over 'why is he so mean to me?' 'why can't I find a guy who treats me nice like you do?'

Hilarious irony. A "nice guy" with the honest belief that women are all masochistic liars who don't know what's good for em.
Sounds oxymoronic to me.

AverageAmericanGuy: Of course you realize that the person who put you in the 'friend zone' was yourself. You were the one who thought that you could ever be more than friends and pushed the point.

That doesn't even make any sense. You either have feelings for someone or not, you don't choose.
If you do and never say anything, you've essentially friend-zoned yourself by not even allowing for the possibility.
If you do and you DO say something, one of three things happens: a relationship, an estrangement, or she friend-zones you.

Really, unless you meet the person under the pretense of starting a romantic relationship (a dating site or somesuch), you're in the friend zone by default. Getting out requires you to be value your own desires enough to give them voice and the self-respect to walk away if you aren't going to get what you need, instead of meekly accepting their rebuke and following them around like a stray dog hoping she'll adopt you. That's not a "friendship", no matter what you call it.

Butthurted: You have a point, but what if you really like the oranges the first store has? I mean what if the first store has huge, juicy, ripe oranges and the other stores have shriveled, desiccated oranges with nasty seeds and. gasp, bugs? Sometimes, when you find the right oranges, you really don't want another store's oranges. I mean even if you decided to go to store two and purchase their inferior, pulpy, moldy oranges, you would never really enjoy them because you would be thinking about store one's oranges the whole time. Than a few weeks later, as you are walking down the street with the nasty, sour, unripe orange bits still stuck between your teeth, you will see another guy, a real scum bag guy that you knew from that time you went to a party with your cousin in that town 20 minutes from your town, and he will be walking out of store one with YOUR ORANGES!!!! Sometimes you have to be patient in order to get the oranges that you want.

Dude, there is no such thing as a special orange. That's just chemicals in your brain tricking you. There are better oranges and worse oranges, but anything you can get from one orange, you can get from a different orange somewhere else. Oranges just aren't special. Don't put oranges on a pedestal.

Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner

Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.

Telos: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Not likely. Even if they aren't _romantically_ interested in you they would like to have sex with you. Unless they are gay, and even then they'd probably go for it during a dry patch.

Point is, just because you don't KNOW they are interested in you doesn't mean they aren't interested. Just means they haven't told you for whatever reason.

Not if he doesn't find her attractive. Unless he's really desperate or drunk I suppose, but I would see those as more fringe situations.

Butthurted: untaken_name: wedun: what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

Look, if you go to the store to buy some oranges, and they don't have any oranges, do you leave or do you wait around hoping that someday they'll have oranges? If you're a man, you go to another store and get some oranges. If you're a wimp-ass pussy you wait around with a hangdog sheepish expression on your face hinting around that you want oranges for months until they get sick of it and kick you out. Which would you rather be? Your choice.

You have a point, but what if you really like the oranges the first store has? I mean what if the first store has huge, juicy, ripe oranges and the other stores have shriveled, desiccated oranges with nasty seeds and. gasp, bugs? Sometimes, when you find the right oranges, you really don't want another store's oranges. I mean even if you decided to go to store two and purchase their inferior, pulpy, moldy oranges, you would never really enjoy them because you would be thinking about store one's oranges the whole time. Than a few weeks later, as you are walking down the street with the nasty, sour, unripe orange bits still stuck between your teeth, you will see another guy, a real scum bag guy that you knew from that time you went to a party with your cousin in that town 20 minutes from your town, and he will be walking out of store one with YOUR ORANGES!!!! Sometimes you have to be patient in order to get the oranges that you want.

Right, so what then? You wait around the first store for days until they get a shipment of ripe, juicy oranges? Then the produce guy hands them straight to the scum bag guy from your cousin's party and you're just standing their starving to death. Possibly with scurvy.

Plus, your argument is a complete fallacy. Maybe there's some small town out there with one "orange" in it, but for the rest of us there are "oranges" everywhere you look.

balisane: taurusowner: We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.

And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot Physically repulsive, frighteningly dull, and about as sexually awakened as a half-empty can of Lysol, so nobody wants them.

FTFY

Meh...

I have an open relationship...

As long as you have ground rules and open communication; it can work.

/On the road for work, too much.
//Problems of 20 year olds or the myth that humans are monogamous.
///Go to strip clubs with my woman.

AverageAmericanGuy: Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of women.

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat.

Lol.

untaken_name: Butthurted: You have a point, but what if you really like the oranges the first store has? I mean what if the first store has huge, juicy, ripe oranges and the other stores have shriveled, desiccated oranges with nasty seeds and. gasp, bugs? Sometimes, when you find the right oranges, you really don't want another store's oranges. I mean even if you decided to go to store two and purchase their inferior, pulpy, moldy oranges, you would never really enjoy them because you would be thinking about store one's oranges the whole time. Than a few weeks later, as you are walking down the street with the nasty, sour, unripe orange bits still stuck between your teeth, you will see another guy, a real scum bag guy that you knew from that time you went to a party with your cousin in that town 20 minutes from your town, and he will be walking out of store one with YOUR ORANGES!!!! Sometimes you have to be patient in order to get the oranges that you want.

Dude, there is no such thing as a special orange. That's just chemicals in your brain tricking you. There are better oranges and worse oranges, but anything you can get from one orange, you can get from a different orange somewhere else. Oranges just aren't special. Don't put oranges on a pedestal.

Perhaps you are right. Besides that orange has been juiced by all my friends. I should just get past this orange and find another nice orange. There are plenty more in the orchard. You know what they say about tangelos? Got to get me some of that. Now where can a heartsick guy get over the heartbreak of citrus betrayal.....

OMG a PIMP:

i think sex and society are messed up in lots of ways. public perception of sexual stereotypes can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and both men and women are guilty of it.

both men and women want lots of casual sex with numerous partners, and both men and women also want a long-lasting emotional relationship with one partner. those things are not mutually exclusive. our society's weird hang-ups on sex have made them that way. but women can't admit that they want casual sex because society looks down on women like that and calls them sluts. and men can't admit that they really want a serious emotional relationship, because everyone assumes they are just lying in order to get laid. in a perfect world, we could have our serious relationships but also have casual sex with others without society judging us for it.

but guys are sometimes forced to simply pursue casual sex, because women don't trust them enough to start serious relationships, because of their experiences with men who only want casual sex. it's like a vicious cycle. and women can only go after the serious relationship because that's what people expect of them, they can't just enjoy casual sex because it could ruin their reputation. in the end, none of us are getting what we want. if we would simply be honest with each other about our wants and needs, and realize that casual sex and emotional romance are both important and good things, i think we'd all be a lot better off.

Learn to be just a little bit dangerous, a little bit devilish, and a little bit exciting, or why should anybody bother with you?

Ishkur: Its cuz your testosterone drops severely after age 25

Eh, define severely...

That's from a journal article about different ways to measure testosterone in a clinical setting. Should be fairly accurate. So yeah, the bioavailable amount starts to trend down, but from 160ish at age 20 to 135ish when pushing 40 may not be a huge amount.

Threads like this make me feel so weird.

I want to relate to the nerdy guys here because I am basically a big nerd. I run an IT division at a big bank, former software engineer, avid gamer and collector of comic books - you name it.

However, there is absolutely NO similarity in my life to the nerd social behavior and attitudes. I've always been popular, friendly, outgoing and well spoken. I never pined after an unavailable chick and I've never been bullied or harassed in my life. I'm actually really good at flirting and my wife constantly elbows me because I tend to do it unconciously to cute baristas at coffee shops.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc?

(shiat, I even make stupid quotes in latin?)

Anyway, I guess I am just annoyed at the continuing implication that low social skills and a love of science, role playing and comic books go hand in hand.

It reminds of that article about that guy who was the world champion MtG player and basically got nerd-shamed by some stupid Gawker writer because he didn't treat the fact that this hobbies made him some sort of pariah as important enough to put into his online dating profile. What a bunch of crap!

Butthurted: untaken_name: Butthurted: You have a point, but what if you really like the oranges the first store has? I mean what if the first store has huge, juicy, ripe oranges and the other stores have shriveled, desiccated oranges with nasty seeds and. gasp, bugs? Sometimes, when you find the right oranges, you really don't want another store's oranges. I mean even if you decided to go to store two and purchase their inferior, pulpy, moldy oranges, you would never really enjoy them because you would be thinking about store one's oranges the whole time. Than a few weeks later, as you are walking down the street with the nasty, sour, unripe orange bits still stuck between your teeth, you will see another guy, a real scum bag guy that you knew from that time you went to a party with your cousin in that town 20 minutes from your town, and he will be walking out of store one with YOUR ORANGES!!!! Sometimes you have to be patient in order to get the oranges that you want.

Dude, there is no such thing as a special orange. That's just chemicals in your brain tricking you. There are better oranges and worse oranges, but anything you can get from one orange, you can get from a different orange somewhere else. Oranges just aren't special. Don't put oranges on a pedestal.

Perhaps you are right. Besides that orange has been juiced by all my friends. I should just get past this orange and find another nice orange. There are plenty more in the orchard. You know what they say about tangelos? Got to get me some of that. Now where can a heartsick guy get over the heartbreak of citrus betrayal.....

OMG a PIMP:
[i1277.photobucket.com image 600x449]

Ack where was the NSFW warning? Look at all those oranges!

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Mmmmm.... well, I can't speak for your particular friends, but I can at least assure you that -- even if they aren't romantically interested -- some of them would probably love to have sex with you. If any of them were romantically interested in you, they might try to hide it.

Imma let you in on a little secret: the only thing most guys need to become interested in having sex with someone is for them to be physically attracted to them. I know that might be hard to fathom because most women don't really work that way, but it's true. You're a cute girl, so I imagine at least a couple of your single guy friends would totally jump in the sack with you if you asked them to.

Gunther: Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner

Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.

If you are in a non-monogamous relationship, I'd add one thing you have to have trust in your partner. Be open with each others fantasies and attractions and communicate them.

I'm one of these guys who became obsessed with one girl (or two) along the way, and whose feelings were never reciprocated. I never got angry with her about it, and it wasn't her fault, but the situation was vastly improved by cutting all contact with her.

I'm not sure how many other guys went through that same kind of situation, and guys don't really talk about it. It's honestly really hard to get help in dealing with unrequited love as a male.

The percentage of people who do not marry is also on the increase, so I think men would really benefit from help in this area. I'm 29 and haven't had a girlfriend since high school. I'm pretty sure I will never marry, and that's ok.

Butthurted: OMG a PIMP:

Is that Djemma el Fna in Marrakech?
I swear to god I saw that guy!

Gunther: Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner

Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.

I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover? Or entertaining fantasies about other people? How many married people spice up their sex lives by role-playing as different people?

I don't think everyone thinks like me, but I DO think a lot of people sublimate their desires in the face of culture... and that we aren't a terribly monogamous species. How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives? If you do know some, how many of them did that completely by choice? Then how many weren't highly religious?

I'm betting the answers to those questions trend towards 0.

Nothing ruins a friendship faster than awful casual sex.

But all this whining about being friend-zoned seems to prove the point of the article... That guys are way more emotional about sex than they'd like to admit.

Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Mmmmm.... well, I can't speak for your particular friends, but I can at least assure you that -- even if they aren't romantically interested -- some of them would probably love to have sex with you. If any of them were romantically interested in you, they might try to hide it.

Imma let you in on a little secret: the only thing most guys need to become interested in having sex with someone is for them to be physically attracted to them. I know that might be hard to fathom because most women don't really work that way, but it's true. You're a cute girl, so I imagine at least a couple of your single guy friends would totally jump in the sack with you if you asked them to.

And that's how some men and women are just friends without one pining over the other in secret.

PillsHere: Telos: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Not likely. Even if they aren't _romantically_ interested in you they would like to have sex with you. Unless they are gay, and even then they'd probably go for it during a dry patch.

Point is, just because you don't KNOW they are interested in you doesn't mean they aren't interested. Just means they haven't told you for whatever reason.

Not if he doesn't find her attractive. Unless he's really desperate or drunk I suppose, but I would see those as more fringe situations.

All drunkeness does is remove inhibitions. It doesn't create desire. If you want to screw your ugly friend when you're drunk, it's because the only thing stopping you when sober is your inhibitions.

Gawdzila: Butthurted: OMG a PIMP:

Is that Djemma el Fna in Marrakech?
I swear to god I saw that guy!

You are correct,I think it is Marrakech. Product of GIS

Seth'n'Spectrum: Need_MindBleach: If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

How hard is, "Do you want to get a cup of coffee sometime?" or "I think you're pretty cute" or "Do you want to go out?" as opposed to "I'll show no overt attraction to you, but I'll pretend to value your friendship in order to get close to you, then I'll get angry when you don't sleep with me."

Guys get friendzoned because the only people who act in the last way are man-children, and man-children are not attractive.

Sorry, it's the truth.

spaten: Meh...

I have an open relationship...

As long as you have ground rules and open communication; it can work.

/On the road for work, too much.
//Problems of 20 year olds or the myth that humans are monogamous.
///Go to strip clubs with my woman.

Sigh.

I've pretty much concluded I'm polyamorous, but only after getting into a monogamous relationship with a woman I still love.

Not much hope of her coming to that conclusion. She won't even let me go to a strip club. :(

CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

You know it. I remember/missed you!!

Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Mmmmm.... well, I can't speak for your particular friends, but I can at least assure you that -- even if they aren't romantically interested -- some of them would probably love to have sex with you. If any of them were romantically interested in you, they might try to hide it.

Imma let you in on a little secret: the only thing most guys need to become interested in having sex with someone is for them to be physically attracted to them. I know that might be hard to fathom because most women don't really work that way, but it's true. You're a cute girl, so I imagine at least a couple of your single guy friends would totally jump in the sack with you if you asked them to.

Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Telos: She won't even let me go to a strip club.

let ??

Need_MindBleach: Seth'n'Spectrum: Need_MindBleach: If you grew balls and made your intentions known from the start, you wouldn't wind up in the "friendzone."

Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

How hard is, "Do you want to get a cup of coffee sometime?" or "I think you're pretty cute" or "Do you want to go out?" as opposed to "I'll show no overt attraction to you, but I'll pretend to value your friendship in order to get close to you, then I'll get angry when you don't sleep with me."

Guys get friendzoned because the only people who act in the last way are man-children, and man-children are not attractive.

Sorry, it's the truth.

I've actually always had a problem asking women out. Even when I work up the courage, somehow... the intention just isn't clear. For example, when I called my current g/f for the first time I asked her if she wanted to get together for a game of mini-golf or a couple drinks. We got together, but she didn't think it was a date.

I'd say that was a fluke, but it's been the case almost every time I've asked a woman out.

So yeah, it's a little harder than it looks. :P

AverageAmericanGuy: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 626x417]

You promised you would erase those pictures and not show anyone!!!!! LIAR!

Isn't it possible for really good friends to fall in love? Or do all romances start with a guy saying "I'll never be your friend, but I'll fark you like a champ, hottie?"

Telos: PillsHere: Telos: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Not likely. Even if they aren't _romantically_ interested in you they would like to have sex with you. Unless they are gay, and even then they'd probably go for it during a dry patch.

Point is, just because you don't KNOW they are interested in you doesn't mean they aren't interested. Just means they haven't told you for whatever reason.

Not if he doesn't find her attractive. Unless he's really desperate or drunk I suppose, but I would see those as more fringe situations.

All drunkeness does is remove inhibitions. It doesn't create desire. If you want to screw your ugly friend when you're drunk, it's because the only thing stopping you when sober is your inhibitions.

Meh, well have to agree to disagree on that. I've slept with people while I was drunk that I would absolutely never consider sleeping with if sober. I guess in a sense it lowered my inhibitions enough to not be AS completely repulsed by them, but I still didn't find them to be attractive in the slightest bit. Of course that was a teenager so I don't know if that counts...

MrHappyRotter: I choose bananas.

Oh my!

I want to be in a relationship. But it's almost impossible for me to be monogamous for extended periods. And love has nothing to do with it.

EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends.

For many guys this doesn't necessarily preclude sex.
I have had quite a few platonic friends that I'd have totally penis'd if I had been given the go-ahead.

EsteeFlwrPot: I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Eh, I kinda doubt it. If they aren't romantically interested they'd probably never ask just to keep things from getting "weird", but it doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it or would be a willing partner.

EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.

Telos: I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover?

I don't think that's really a fair question. Preferring a monogamous relationship to a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean you completely lack sexual desire for anyone other than your partner.

Telos: How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives?

Many people, possibly most people in fact, are serially monogamous - they go from one monogamous relationship to the next without having multiple partners at any one time. With both these questions you're redefining the term "monogamous" so narrowly that nobody fits it, then claiming that proves that nobody is monogamous..

One more time: Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything. You're looking at people in monogamous relationships and assuming that you know their own desires better than they do - that if they'd just be honest with themselves, they'd all be happy polyamorists like you. It's a really childish way of thinking.

I tell all my attractive female friends that I would sleep with them. It's the truth, and when you're upfront at least they know that option is there. Obviously usually I don't hook up with them, but it's more because it would mess things up, not because she doesn't "think of me that way"

/and occasionally it does work out

Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends.

For many guys this doesn't necessarily preclude sex.
I have had quite a few platonic friends that I'd have totally penis'd if I had been given the go-ahead.

EsteeFlwrPot: I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Eh, I kinda doubt it. If they aren't romantically interested they'd probably never ask just to keep things from getting "weird", but it doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it or would be a willing partner.

You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.

But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me

Gawdzila: AverageAmericanGuy: Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of women.

AverageAmericanGuy: Women are liars. They say they want a nice guy, but they don't. They want assholes who treat them like shiat.

Lol.
[hellogiggles.com image 341x192]

I still haven't figured out if he's an adept troll or just an ugly person. Either way, well-played.

Telos: spaten: Meh...

I have an open relationship...

As long as you have ground rules and open communication; it can work.

/On the road for work, too much.
//Problems of 20 year olds or the myth that humans are monogamous.
///Go to strip clubs with my woman.

Sigh.

I've pretty much concluded I'm polyamorous, but only after getting into a monogamous relationship with a woman I still love.

Not much hope of her coming to that conclusion. She won't even let me go to a strip club. :(

Bring it up subtlety, ask her what her fantasies are, watch or read pron together...Make it an intimate thing that doesn't make her jealous. Put the seed in her mind and let her come around.

You can't change the way she thinks, but if you really love her, minimize her insecurities and reassure her that she is the one you will come home to.

If that doesn't work, cut your losses and move on.

EsteeFlwrPot: You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that.

Nonchalantly mention how you need to get laid.

i upped my meds-up yours: balisane: taurusowner: We've been told for so long by media that the really hot popular girls want a sweet genuine honest awkward best-friend boyfriend, so tons of guys keep waiting for that to finally happen. And it (almost) never does.

And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot Physically repulsive, frighteningly dull, and about as sexually awakened as a half-empty can of Lysol, so nobody wants them.

FTFY

Pretty much truth. I should know; is never had any dude accept even the suggestion of a date or fooling around, and I'm female.

It used to be sad, but now I'm just busy.

"You know what a platonic friend is to a woman? It's like a dick in a glass case. In case of emergency, break open glass!"

enderthexenocide: i think sex and society are messed up in lots of ways. public perception of sexual stereotypes can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and both men and women are guilty of it.

both men and women want lots of casual sex with numerous partners, and both men and women also want a long-lasting emotional relationship with one partner. those things are not mutually exclusive. our society's weird hang-ups on sex have made them that way. but women can't admit that they want casual sex because society looks down on women like that and calls them sluts. and men can't admit that they really want a serious emotional relationship, because everyone assumes they are just lying in order to get laid. in a perfect world, we could have our serious relationships but also have casual sex with others without society judging us for it.

but guys are sometimes forced to simply pursue casual sex, because women don't trust them enough to start serious relationships, because of their experiences with men who only want casual sex. it's like a vicious cycle. and women can only go after the serious relationship because that's what people expect of them, they can't just enjoy casual sex because it could ruin their reputation. in the end, none of us are getting what we want. if we would simply be honest with each other about our wants and needs, and realize that casual sex and emotional romance are both important and good things, i think we'd all be a lot better off.

^^THIS^^

EsteeFlwrPot: But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me

Welcome to the guy's world, sweetie. If you want to know, you have to ask. If you don't ask, you'll never know.

Can someone do me a favor and post the picture of Clinton, Arafat and another guy,
Rabine maybe, with the caption. I can't find it on google.

EsteeFlwrPot: Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends.

For many guys this doesn't necessarily preclude sex.
I have had quite a few platonic friends that I'd have totally penis'd if I had been given the go-ahead.

EsteeFlwrPot: I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Eh, I kinda doubt it. If they aren't romantically interested they'd probably never ask just to keep things from getting "weird", but it doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it or would be a willing partner.

You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.

But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me

I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.

Always enjoy this classic. Meet a girl, hit it off, take her out on a few dates (I pay for everything, of course), ask her thoughts on "where this is going"...

"I'm not looking to date anyone right now."

balisane: And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.

I know right Never Say Never

spaten: Bring it up subtlety, ask her what her fantasies are, watch or read pron together...Make it an intimate thing that doesn't make her jealous. Put the seed in her mind and let her come around.

You can't change the way she thinks, but if you really love her, minimize her insecurities and reassure her that she is the one you will come home to.

If that doesn't work, cut your losses and move on.

I really think that's sound advice in general.

However, anecdotally, as one could imagine with my prior post in this thread, I completely failed and botched stuff like that with the ex.

As it turned out, a self-admitted sex addict ultimately became like the Sahara around me. If that doesn't fark with your head, not much will.

wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

How is walking away the same as throwing a tantrum?

GoldSpider: Always enjoy this classic. Meet a girl, hit it off, take her out on a few dates (I pay for everything, of course), ask her thoughts on "where this is going"...

"I'm not looking to date anyone right now."

[nettimes.us image 220x185]

Better than being strung along and taken for 1/3 of your life savings!

KiwDaWabbit: Better than being strung along and taken for 1/3 of your life savings!

That's why I ask. There's dignity in being up front with one's intentions, I think, and "playing it cool" as my friends call it just wastes time and money.

Gunther: Telos: I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover?

I don't think that's really a fair question. Preferring a monogamous relationship to a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean you completely lack sexual desire for anyone other than your partner.

Telos: How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives?

Many people, possibly most people in fact, are serially monogamous - they go from one monogamous relationship to the next without having multiple partners at any one time. With both these questions you're redefining the term "monogamous" so narrowly that nobody fits it, then claiming that proves that nobody is monogamous..

One more time: Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything. You're looking at people in monogamous relationships and assuming that you know their own desires better than they do - that if they'd just be honest with themselves, they'd all be happy polyamorists like you. It's a really childish way of thinking.

Let's go back a bit, where you said "....doesn't mean you completely lack sexual desire for anyone other than your partner."

There you go. If someone has sexual desire for people other than their partner, they're not really monogamous. They are simply choosing to act in a monogamous fashion.

I can choose not to eat meat too, but that doesn't make me a herbivore. It's a choice I'm making, not my biology.

My point is that biologically, naturally we aren't monogamous. Most people in our society CHOOSE monogamy, and to a large extent I think that's the influence of our culture and of religion. There are perfectly valid reasons for monogamy, but for most people it's just the way it is. 3 years ago I'd probably have been on your side, as I couldn't even conceive of any other way of doing things.

balisane: I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.

But I think i'm the type to want to date someone that has the balls to ask me out. Not only ask me out, but do it in a funny or unique way like start a political debate or argument with me and then ask me out for coffee as we're screaming at each other about how Romney's folders full of women may really be his other wives and how he secretly plans to turn our country into the "The United States of Mormon."

Oh dear god...

I should date a farker

EsteeFlwrPot: Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends.

For many guys this doesn't necessarily preclude sex.
I have had quite a few platonic friends that I'd have totally penis'd if I had been given the go-ahead.

EsteeFlwrPot: I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Eh, I kinda doubt it. If they aren't romantically interested they'd probably never ask just to keep things from getting "weird", but it doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it or would be a willing partner.

You know... i've been having a dry season, so to speak, and I have been thinking of who to have fun with until I find relationship material. I just never thought any of my guy friends would be interested in that

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Come on to them. Tell them you've always wanted to sleep with them, but never had the courage to say anything. See how many "aren't interested". Those are the gay ones.

But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me

Why would it be embarrassing to find out some of your friends are gay? :P

EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

GoldSpider: Always enjoy this classic. Meet a girl, hit it off, take her out on a few dates (I pay for everything, of course), ask her thoughts on "where this is going"...

"I'm not looking to date anyone right now."

When what she means is, "I don't want to date you right now"

findthefish: The friend zone sucks. Don't ever be that guy in the friend zone. As the good man recommended above. Walk away.

I feel so bad. I always had a large number of male friends during my young adulthood (late 1990's, early 2000's)...before the term "friendzone" existed. Around 2004, my boyfriend informed me that practically no straight guy is ever "just friends"; they're just hanging around hoping that the girl (read: me) will finally sleep with them.

Gijick: Isn't it possible for really good friends to fall in love? Or do all romances start with a guy saying "I'll never be your friend, but I'll fark you like a champ, hottie?"

No. You could be both. Just don't say you want one when you really want the other.

EsteeFlwrPot: balisane: I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.

But I think i'm the type to want to date someone that has the balls to ask me out. Not only ask me out, but do it in a funny or unique way like start a political debate or argument with me and then ask me out for coffee as we're screaming at each other about how Romney's folders full of women may really be his other wives and how he secretly plans to turn our country into the "The United States of Mormon."

Oh dear god...

I should date a farker

Look, all your male friends (and probably a couple of your female friends) want to sleep with you. So how about this: Let's get together for a few drinks, and I'll be the first! ;)

whatshisname: When what she means is, "I don't want to date you right now"

And that's fine, so be a grown-up and be truthful.

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

[chan.catiewayne.com image 467x337]

No I totally would! I just have to find someone thats for me, thats all. But more relevant to the article and to this situation in general- I really dont think most guys are friends with girls they secretly have feelings for. After a few weeks of hanging out eventually you're bound to say something and thats not enough time to really be friendzoned in the first place.

spaten: Telos: spaten: Meh...

I have an open relationship...

As long as you have ground rules and open communication; it can work.

/On the road for work, too much.
//Problems of 20 year olds or the myth that humans are monogamous.
///Go to strip clubs with my woman.

Sigh.

I've pretty much concluded I'm polyamorous, but only after getting into a monogamous relationship with a woman I still love.

Not much hope of her coming to that conclusion. She won't even let me go to a strip club. :(

Bring it up subtlety, ask her what her fantasies are, watch or read pron together...Make it an intimate thing that doesn't make her jealous. Put the seed in her mind and let her come around.

You can't change the way she thinks, but if you really love her, minimize her insecurities and reassure her that she is the one you will come home to.

If that doesn't work, cut your losses and move on.

That ship has sailed. Long, complicated story but the short version is we know our time together is limited and we're just trying to enjoy it a little longer.

Thing is, as adamant as she is about not being polyamorous sometimes she does or says something that makes me wonder. For instance she's absolutely in love with Don Draper, who ironically enough is the character that convinced me I could be happy in a polyamorous lifestyle. Or whenver someone cheats in a move her only reaction is how that was obviously the only thing that could have happened. Although I tend to read into things, so I try not to think about it.

GoldSpider: Always enjoy this classic. Meet a girl, hit it off, take her out on a few dates (I pay for everything, of course), ask her thoughts on "where this is going"...

"I'm not looking to date anyone right now."

[nettimes.us image 220x185]

See now, that's farked up. The girl who did that was a biatch. If you both pay, she has no reason to think its a date unless you've said so, but if you pay, it's a date.

/female

Now, this puts me in a tricky position that I've yet to completely figure out on the first few dates (I've just winged it so far). I have a job. I don't need the guy to pay for everything, and I don't want to make him think I'm going to use up all his money. Yet, at the same time, I don't want him interpreting my offering to split the bill as a sign I'm not interested. What to do.

Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

And you know the size of Stu's dick?..

EsteeFlwrPot: But what if they say no? Then it'll be embarrassing for me

Eh, you don't have to present it like a yes or no question. If you just find an occasion to have a nonchalant conversation with one of em about how you're having trouble getting laid, toss some subtle hints and flirtations, and see what happens. And if nothing comes of it, don't worry about it. balisane is right -- if you don't make it weird, they probably won't either.

EsteeFlwrPot: untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

[chan.catiewayne.com image 467x337]

No I totally would! I just have to find someone thats for me, thats all. But more relevant to the article and to this situation in general- I really dont think most guys are friends with girls they secretly have feelings for. After a few weeks of hanging out eventually you're bound to say something and thats not enough time to really be friendzoned in the first place.

I made a longer post earlier about it, but one of the problems is the kind of guy who becomes friends with a girl he likes usually ISN'T the kind of guy who is comfortable or good at asking women out. There's also a difference between liking someone and just finding them attractive. Many of your male friends want to sleep with you. Most won't bring it up for various reasons, like thinking they would need to be in a relationship with you and not wanting that part.

Many men i know give in to promiscuity as a last resort to find any partner willing to take them, i do despise the author, but he's still largely right, the balls in the woman's court (lucifer our lord innuendo).

On the same hand, i've known too many women looking to fark as many guys as possible, so my perspective is skewed, i blame it on growing up in humorously liberal territory.

I'm not transposing, this is my reality. Maybe i need to finally move red state, who knows. But i like it when people get along..

Heh the friendzone doesn't bother me at all. That just means that she isn't the one for me and I can hang out and hit on her friends. Or she can be my wingwoman at a bar. If a chick isn't into you just accept it. Life is too short to worry about stuff like that.

\it also can be funny when they get jealous of other girls hanging out with me.

GoldSpider: That's why I ask. There's dignity in being up front with one's intentions, I think, and "playing it cool" as my friends call it just wastes time and money.

Oh, I asked all the time throughout the relationship I mentioned earlier, because one thing was being said (or not said, but it was more or less demanded that I assumed it) and, to me, her actions weren't consistent with someone who was supposedly in love. If I ever questioned it, I was met with resistance, anger, and guilt tripping.

And sure, I was a moron for trying to keep going. I know that. I'm not perfect. I also knew (know) that I'm one of those who isn't terribly desirable to begin with, so I started weighing the lack of options versus what I had and that is how you wind up with an unhealthy and unfulfilling relationship.

So, uhh, yeah. TMI.

We're talking about two completely different stages, thought, and up front, I agree. It's much easier to dissolve things when you don't have all that much invested in it.

dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

Dammit.. Filter .. My hubby is NOT a biatchubby, he's chubby, but just a bit.. :)

balisane: And the girls who actually want that sweet, awkward boyfriend? Not hot, so nobody wants them.

Dudes aren't the only people who get friendzoned, alas.

What you are saying is true. I have had a few of my female friends (that I had no interest in being in a relationship or even sleeping with) awkardly asking me out or tell me when they are really drunk how long they have had a crush on me.

I normally would just try ignore that they have said anything, because I really value our friendship, and they are always there for me when I get screwed over by some chick who I thought was awesome, but turned out to be an absolute biatch.

For some reason I only ever seem to end up dating biatches

KiwDaWabbit: spaten: Bring it up subtlety, ask her what her fantasies are, watch or read pron together...Make it an intimate thing that doesn't make her jealous. Put the seed in her mind and let her come around.

You can't change the way she thinks, but if you really love her, minimize her insecurities and reassure her that she is the one you will come home to.

If that doesn't work, cut your losses and move on.

I really think that's sound advice in general.

However, anecdotally, as one could imagine with my prior post in this thread, I completely failed and botched stuff like that with the ex.

As it turned out, a self-admitted sex addict ultimately became like the Sahara around me. If that doesn't fark with your head, not much will.

It is a minefield... Both for guys and gals... That is why I think communication is key.

AverageAmericanGuy: dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

And you know the size of Stu's dick?..

They're best friends. Dan has seen it at some point and told me.

AverageAmericanGuy: dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

And you know the size of Stu's dick?..

I cant stop laughing

spaten: It is a minefield... Both for guys and gals... That is why I think communication is key.

That's very true. Of course, I tried that all the time as well. I gather that it works a hell of a lot better when you're compatible to begin with.

Tellingthem: Heh the friendzone doesn't bother me at all. That just means that she isn't the one for me and I can hang out and hit on her friends. Or she can be my wingwoman at a bar. If a chick isn't into you just accept it. Life is too short to worry about stuff like that.

\it also can be funny when they get jealous of other girls hanging out with me.

The wingwoman bit actually works well, in my experience. Women tend to trust guys who show up at a bar with female friends.

brap: Hug Me To Completion is my Teddy Ruxpin tribute band.

Hug Me To Completion... hmmm... there's something... vaguely familiar about that name...

AverageAmericanGuy: And you know the size of Stu's dick?..

"So, so groovy"

KiwDaWabbit: spaten: It is a minefield... Both for guys and gals... That is why I think communication is key.

That's very true. Of course, I tried that all the time as well. I gather that it works a hell of a lot better when you're compatible to begin with.

Exactly.

spaten: KiwDaWabbit: spaten: It is a minefield... Both for guys and gals... That is why I think communication is key.

That's very true. Of course, I tried that all the time as well. I gather that it works a hell of a lot better when you're compatible to begin with.

Exactly, but you can be compatible with more then one person...

EsteeFlwrPot: untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

[chan.catiewayne.com image 467x337]

No I totally would! I just have to find someone thats for me, thats all. But more relevant to the article and to this situation in general- I really dont think most guys are friends with girls they secretly have feelings for. After a few weeks of hanging out eventually you're bound to say something and thats not enough time to really be friendzoned in the first place.

Ok, I'm confused. Were we talking about friends who want to be in a committed relationship with you or friends that want to have sex with you? Because I was talking about friends who want to have sex with you and I'm not sure where "feelings" come into that. Unless horny counts as a feeling. You can either listen to all the males in here who are clearly telling you that if you are attractive, your straight male friends want to bone you, or you can believe that they don't because you don't think they do. But I guarantee you that guys know more about what other guys want, at least in general, than you do. We've experienced it ourselves. I have female friends. The only ones I would not bone are the unattractive ones and the ones I've boned already. I'm not saying I represent all males, but I know I speak for most of them.

dopekitty74: it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

Great story.

EsteeFlwrPot: Oh dear god...

I should date a farker

Tease ;)

untaken_name: I'm not saying I represent all males, but I know I speak for most of them.

Nailed it.

untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: untaken_name: EsteeFlwrPot: I should date a farker

[chan.catiewayne.com image 467x337]

No I totally would! I just have to find someone thats for me, thats all. But more relevant to the article and to this situation in general- I really dont think most guys are friends with girls they secretly have feelings for. After a few weeks of hanging out eventually you're bound to say something and thats not enough time to really be friendzoned in the first place.

Ok, I'm confused. Were we talking about friends who want to be in a committed relationship with you or friends that want to have sex with you? Because I was talking about friends who want to have sex with you and I'm not sure where "feelings" come into that. Unless horny counts as a feeling. You can either listen to all the males in here who are clearly telling you that if you are attractive, your straight male friends want to bone you, or you can believe that they don't because you don't think they do. But I guarantee you that guys know more about what other guys want, at least in general, than you do. We've experienced it ourselves. I have female friends. The only ones I would not bone are the unattractive ones and the ones I've boned already. I'm not saying I represent all males, but I know I speak for most of them.

I understand but why I just dont understand why they wouldn't have tried to bone me already. I mean I guess they dont want to ruin the friendship.. you know what, im going to test this out. im gonna hit on one of them and see what happens.

/sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

EsteeFlwrPot:

/sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

EIP. Applications accepted.

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

You have to use the Fark mating call.

'WHY DON'T YOU HAVE EIP?'

GoldSpider: 'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

untaken_name: EIP. Applications accepted.

AverageAmericanGuy: You have to use the Fark mating call.

'WHY DON'T YOU HAVE EIP?'

GoldSpider: EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

Hell most of the time just saying that you're a female will have guys attention around here.

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

AverageAmericanGuy:
What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

The first thing you gotta understand is that being in the friendzone does not equal being friends with a girl. Both parties are being very selfish and deceptive. Misery and resentment are the usual result. Best to be up front and be prepared to deal with it.

GoldSpider: GoldSpider: 'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

untaken_name: EIP. Applications accepted.

AverageAmericanGuy: You have to use the Fark mating call.

'WHY DON'T YOU HAVE EIP?'

Not me. I have hope. One day the girl of my dreams will stop dating that asshole and she'll realize that I'm the one she's been sharing her hopes and fears and dreams with and then she'll fall in love with me.

Tellingthem: GoldSpider: EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

Hell most of the time just saying that you're a female will have guys attention around here.

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

Cuz they're the boobs of girls you find intellectually engaging or funny or just cool, as opposed to girls you've never met and likely never will, not even on a site like fark?

Telos: There you go. If someone has sexual desire for people other than their partner, they're not really monogamous.

And you're still defining the word so narrowly that it doesn't have any meaning.

In this thread? No. In general, likely.

AverageAmericanGuy: Not me. I have hope. One day the girl of my dreams will stop dating that asshole and she'll realize that I'm the one she's been sharing her hopes and fears and dreams with and then she'll fall in love with me.

Lulz.

I'm still enjoying the afterglow from my Overachiever of the Year award I won from a little firecracker of a ginger marathon runner months ago.

/realize she doesn't have a soul.
//everyone has a weakness

Tellingthem: GoldSpider: EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

Hell most of the time just saying that you're a female will have guys attention around here.

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

It's like sandwiches. You can go to the store and get a sandwich. You can go to a homeless shelter and get a sandwich for free. Or you can get someone to make you a sandwich. Which are the best sandwiches? Depends on your preferences.

EsteeFlwrPot: I understand but why I just dont understand why they wouldn't have tried to bone me already. I mean I guess they dont want to ruin the friendship

Maybe they're either worried about rejection (just as you were), or just don't want to weird you out.

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

My inbox is holding auditions ;)

Lol, seriously though, if I wasn't across the country from you I'd happily take you out.

FizixJunkee: I feel so bad. I always had a large number of male friends during my young adulthood (late 1990's, early 2000's)...before the term "friendzone" existed. Around 2004, my boyfriend informed me that practically no straight guy is ever "just friends"; they're just hanging around hoping that the girl (read: me) will finally sleep with them.

Friendzone is as old as the moon. When Harry Met Sally lampshaded it and that movie came out in 1989 FFS.

This is not a new revelation.

dopekitty74: Tellingthem:

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

Cuz they're the boobs of girls you find intellectually engaging or funny or just cool, as opposed to girls you've never met and likely never will, not even on a site like fark?

Dingdingdingdingding
The breasteses of a girl you're talking to and who willingly showed them off especially for you are more interesting than the bewbs of some random girl who shows them off on the internet for a living.

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

You have just smothered yourself in barbecue sauce and jumped into the tiger pit.

.....be careful out there.

I've been friend zoned so many times that I'm sick of it. The next woman who does it is going to get a rude reply to her, "let's not ruin it, let's stay friends. Besides, you have so much to offer that you should have no problem finding the right woman." "FARK YOU BIATCH! Just tell the truth. You're sickened by the idea of having a relationship with me, so don't farkin' try to sugar coat it with bullshiat."

/yeah, I'm bitter
//go fark yourself

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

Go to a Fark Party. Do it!

/Went to the Vegas party, had a blast.

Gawdzila: dopekitty74: Tellingthem:

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

Cuz they're the boobs of girls you find intellectually engaging or funny or just cool, as opposed to girls you've never met and likely never will, not even on a site like fark?

Dingdingdingdingding
The breasteses of a girl you're talking to and who willingly showed them off especially for you are more interesting than the bewbs of some random girl who shows them off on the internet for a living.

Hey whatever floats your boat guys. It just doesn't do anything for me. Boobs are boobs, doesn't matter if they talked to me or not.

Tellingthem: Hey whatever floats your boat guys. It just doesn't do anything for me. Boobs are boobs, doesn't matter if they talked to me or not.

once you've seen one woman naked, you... wanna see the rest of 'em naked

Meh, I find it very rare these days that someone is attractive enough to want to date, but also interesting enough to want to see socially if that is off the table.

Not caring about maintaining proximity to hot women just because they're hot kind of solves the "friend zone" problem.

Ishkur: By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education.

upon what demented planet do YOU live? because you're vastly overstating how many guys are like that.

It's been a long time since I've posted but anytime there's a mention of the "friend zone" I feel that, as a resident expert, I owe it to my fellow farkers to raise a question.

Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?

For anyone reading this who is in a situation similar to mine (a sometimes excruciating friend zone scenario) I don't recommend carrying on if the relationship is only a constant source of humiliation and pain for you. By all means, do the heavy lifting: get out.

But I'm always reticent to think of being a woman's close friend (as a heterosexual male) as having little to no upside. Emotional intimacy is difficult, as I'm sure we've all experienced, and being loved, valued, trusted, and wanted is scarce. In my experience, sex has been immensely easier to get than genuine love. The kind of love that requires real vulnerability, real sacrifice, and has meant the most to me.

Sex is important, yes. And I won't pretend that lacking the sexual relationship with this other person has been deeply challenging and often rendered me sort of terrified and violated, but I can't see it as being more important than the emotional connection. Or that the emotional connection has to take on an inferior role just because of sex.

I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

Any thoughts?

Ishkur: Friendzone is as old as the moon. When Harry Met Sally lampshaded it and that movie came out in 1989 FFS.

This is not a new revelation.

If You Don't Want To Be Sweethearts, Then I Don't Want To Be Friends
This is a song from 1933. If you had a clean shirt and could buy a woman a sandwich, you were a playa in 1933. And people then believed in romantic notions that would get you all the way into the Kitteh Infested Recluse Zone today.

Beluga Heights: Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?

Having female friends (which from the rest of your post is what it seems like you've mistaken the friendzone for) is of course a good thing. Having female friends you're only hanging around with because you hope the friendship becomes a relationship (ie- what the friendzone is) is creepy and manipulative.

I friend zoned my bestest guy friend from high school. I really didn't want to ruin our friendship and told him so. We ended up getting married a few years later. Six years after that he tried to throw me off a fourth floor balcony.

Moral of the story, men you friend zone never forgive and will try to kill you one day. :-\

Beluga Heights: I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

I love my dog. My dog loves me. I don't have sex with him, but then that isn't part of the owner/dog relationship.

I don't know your exact scenario, and maybe you and she have transcended the traditional bounds of what the rest of us call friendship. But from your post, it sounds goddamn depressing and pathetic.

PillsHere: Every time this thread comes up there's a bunch of guys on here talking about how cruel and insensitive women/girls are for friend-zoning them - as if it's some intentional plot to use, manipulate, or hurt guys. It's really not. Now I'm sure there are some girls out there who take advantage of their friend-zoned guys or treat them poorly.

This. I'd never even heard of this "friend zone" shiat until I was quite old. I thought that guys actually liked being friends with women. I liked being friends with them. I didn't realize they were all looking at my ass. Then I was shocked, shocked, when they hit on me and ruined our "friendship."

So I don't have any male friends anymore. I'm long-time single anyway, so I don't really expect a man would want to hang around for long as just a friend anyway. At least when you get old, you know the score.

Ishkur: Friendzone is as old as the moon. When Harry Met Sally lampshaded it and that movie came out in 1989 FFS.
This is not a new revelation.

I don't think I saw that movie until I was 40.

farkin_noob: I friend zoned my bestest guy friend from high school. I really didn't want to ruin our friendship and told him so. We ended up getting married a few years later. Six years after that he tried to throw me off a fourth floor balcony.

Moral of the story, men you friend zone never forgive and will try to kill you one day. :-\

Serves ya right!

/I really am keeding, especially if your serious

Beluga Heights: It's been a long time since I've posted but anytime there's a mention of the "friend zone" I feel that, as a resident expert, I owe it to my fellow farkers to raise a question.

Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?

For anyone reading this who is in a situation similar to mine (a sometimes excruciating friend zone scenario) I don't recommend carrying on if the relationship is only a constant source of humiliation and pain for you. By all means, do the heavy lifting: get out.

But I'm always reticent to think of being a woman's close friend (as a heterosexual male) as having little to no upside. Emotional intimacy is difficult, as I'm sure we've all experienced, and being loved, valued, trusted, and wanted is scarce. In my experience, sex has been immensely easier to get than genuine love. The kind of love that requires real vulnerability, real sacrifice, and has meant the most to me.

Sex is important, yes. And I won't pretend that lacking the sexual relationship with this other person has been deeply challenging and often rendered me sort of terrified and violated, but I can't see it as being more important than the emotional connection. Or that the emotional connection has to take on an inferior role just because of sex.

I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

Any thoughts?

Find yourself a girlfriend, that wants to sleep with you and friend zone her, actually if she's not hooking you and not hooking you up with girls well really, whats the use? Then shes not a friend and if your relationship with her makes you feel bad get out.

Dougie AXP: farkin_noob: I friend zoned my bestest guy friend from high school. I really didn't want to ruin our friendship and told him so. We ended up getting married a few years later. Six years after that he tried to throw me off a fourth floor balcony.

Moral of the story, men you friend zone never forgive and will try to kill you one day. :-\

Serves ya right!

/I really am keeding, especially if your serious

I lol'd. And yes it happened, but not because of the whole friend zone thing. It was because I can't make sammiches. :-(

/or because of all the drinking after he killed a guy in a car accident.

Soupysales: Beluga Heights: I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

I love my dog. My dog loves me. I don't have sex with him, but then that isn't part of the owner/dog relationship.

I don't know your exact scenario, and maybe you and she have transcended the traditional bounds of what the rest of us call friendship. But from your post, it sounds goddamn depressing and pathetic.

That's quite possible with the transcending traditional boundaries part.

As far as "goddamn depressing and pathetic" after rereading it has more to do with the wording than the actual scenario. But, truthfully, I didn't get you much to go on, so that's on me.

My larger point was about how, as a culture, we've entangled sex with love so much that when we see the absence of sex we automatically veto the proposition. And in my experience, it matters less than what it matters to others. And so I have my answer for myself. I was just curious if anyone else agreed with me on it.

Gunther: Beluga Heights: Is the friend zone a terminally bad thing?

Having female friends (which from the rest of your post is what it seems like you've mistaken the friendzone for) is of course a good thing. Having female friends you're only hanging around with because you hope the friendship becomes a relationship (ie- what the friendzone is) is creepy and manipulative.

That makes sense. I guess I just see them as overlapping, somewhat, and maybe that's where my mistake came from?

Beluga Heights: My larger point was about how, as a culture, we've entangled sex with love so much that when we see the absence of sex we automatically veto the proposition. And in my experience, it matters less than what it matters to others. And so I have my answer for myself. I was just curious if anyone else agreed with me on it.

From your initial comment: Sex is important, yes. And I won't pretend that lacking the sexual relationship with this other person has been deeply challenging and often rendered me sort of terrified and violated, but I can't see it as being more important than the emotional connection. Or that the emotional connection has to take on an inferior role just because of sex.

If you're completely satisfied with the emotional part, more power to you. But the quote above suggests that you're rationalizing in order justify your situation.

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! No.

Rape, sadly, is sometimes an effective means of procreation. From a purely genetic standpoint, and only considering weeding out that one gene, it would be better if everyone who got pregnant by rape were to abort that pregnancy.

Sometimes it's good that we don't practice eugenics.

HoratioGates: Rape, sadly, is sometimes an effective means of procreation. From a purely genetic standpoint, and only considering weeding out that one gene, it would be better if everyone who got pregnant by rape were to abort that pregnancy.

Sometimes it's good that we don't practice eugenics.

If we're going along that line of thinking, cannibalism is sometimes an effective means of combating starvation.

cryinoutloud: This. I'd never even heard of this "friend zone" shiat until I was quite old. I thought that guys actually liked being friends with women. I liked being friends with them. I didn't realize they were all looking at my ass.

For guys, being friends with a woman doesn't mean you have to stop looking at her ass.
For us, being physically attracted to someone is almost completely separate from the idea of how we like them as a person. We're perfectly capable of simultaneously being "just friends" and liking the idea of banging you. Women I've met seem not to understand this idea very well, like it is some basic contradiction of logic.

Beluga Heights: Sex is important, yes. And I won't pretend that lacking the sexual relationship with this other person has been deeply challenging and often rendered me sort of terrified and violated, but I can't see it as being more important than the emotional connection. Or that the emotional connection has to take on an inferior role just because of sex.

I guess what my sleep deprived mind is coming around the long way of saying is, love is rare. Frighteningly so. To walk away from it because it's not everything you thought it would be in your head when you found it seems...unfortunate.

Any thoughts?

Yes, I have a thought.
If this person is your friend.. your friend with whom you have no sexual relationship at all... then why do you seemingly feel the need to dedicate yourself to it wholly? It sounds like there is a level of devotion here, simply due to your closeness as friends, that is completely out of proportion to the type of relationship that you have. Since she is only a friend, would she be upset if you dated some girl? I sure hope not, otherwise she's like a jealous girlfriend without even the benefit of sex.

Assuming that she wouldn't mind, why are you making yourself unavailable for a relationship that includes love AND sex? Like I said, you seem devoted to this person in a way that isn't reciprocated, and in such a way that you would come across to others as being unavailable. Perhaps love is hard to find for you simply because you're not leaving yourself open to the possibility of another, more complete relationship? If you found one it isn't like you'd be losing anything, your current "friend zone" girl would still be available for a close friendship, just without the part where it is excruciating for you.

pxlboy: Kuroshin: taurusowner: CygnusDarius: Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

This is what I've been doing. I use to get friendzoned HARD pretty often. You know how in 90's sitcoms like Family Matters, Step by Step, etc there would always be stories about the douchebag alpha male trying to hit on the girl but in the end the nerdy genuine sweet guy would win her heart? Yeah, I grew up believing all that. So it's not even that I didn't just wanna get laid (of course I did) it's that I literally thought that what girls really wanted was that sweet genuine guy to treat them like a person. I spent years believing this, even seeing zero results, I just kept believing it.
The last year or so, since I got back from my last deployment, has really been an eye opening time for me. I've had a lot more success with women and it's because I stopped letting myself get walked over. I do exactly what you say. I start flirting with a girl and so forth. But the minute she gives me a "I just want to be friends"/"I'm actually talking to another guy right now..." speech, I truthfully explain to her that I cannot be friends with girls. I end up liking them too much and it ends badly anyways. Might as well end it now. Most of them are shocked that I didn't just accept their "be my friend I can ask for favors" suggestion. But a small portion have actually texted me back maybe a week later and reconsidered, and now are considering dating/hooking up. And for the majority that don't and I never see again, we're both better off.

The problem with friendzoning is just as much the guys as the girls. Guys let it happen because we're so desperate to just be around that hot girl in class/work/etc. They know it, and use it to their advantage. If guys would just man up and lay their cards down "date me or don't be part of my life" I think there would be a lot more healthy relationships. ...

gym, 26 minutes, etc

No, this guy speaks the truth. Coming back from war gives you a brand new perspective. Get busy living or get busy dying, so to speak.

There comes a realization that our time here is very precious.

I want a relationship, and a best friend, but I'm not going to waste my time in the friendzone. My clock is ticking too. I don't want to be the 40 year old dad with a new born, or the retiree attending my daughter's high school graduation.

Friendzone relationships are not worth the time.

Beluga Heights: My larger point was about how, as a culture, we've entangled sex with love so much that when we see the absence of sex we automatically veto the proposition. And in my experience, it matters less than what it matters to others. And so I have my answer for myself. I was just curious if anyone else agreed with me on it.

Can't say I do.
In our society it is generally OK to love more than one person, and is not generally okay to have sex with more than one person, so arguing that "love is more important than sex" is really kind of nonsense. You're presenting it as a choice between one or the other, or that you have to give up one to try and get the other, and that's a bunch of crap. There is also no part of your relationship that you couldn't have while you were in a loving AND sexual relationship with someone else. Nothing about your situation keeps you from pursuing someone else.

You already came out and said that sex was important, you're just trying your best to ignore it even though it clearly hurts you, so this really all sounds like a whole bunch of excuses for why you're too scared to venture out and find someone else. who gives you everything you need.

CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency. The fact this term is always applied to men about themselves shows what a big old ugly male entitlement concept it is.

You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail. You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch? So you never, in fact, respected or liked her as a person in her own right, it was all about what you could get for yourself and what she would do for you; a return on your investment.

I bet you think you're a nice guy.

/God forbid women should want to be friends with men

You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song.

if_i_really_have_to: The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency.

That's a ridiculous pile of bullsh*t.

if_i_really_have_to: You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail.

Holy f**k do you use a lot of loaded language. You could use those sentences to make anyone who is simply going out on a date sound like an evil manipulative bastard.

They're not looking for her to "reward" them with her body, they're looking for her to reciprocate their feelings of being interested in a relationship. And if you get to know someone for a little while and find yourself attracted to them in a way that they don't reciprocate, do you honestly think it is the better option to keep hanging around and pretending not to be interested? Are you under the impression that you can simply decide not to have feelings for someone?

if_i_really_have_to: You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch?

No, who the hell said that? Only you, as near as I can tell.

UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song.

I hate you so much right now.

Isn't a Jezebel blog complaining about sexual mythology, being judgmental, and stereotyping kinda... hypocritical? I mean, given that their entire business model is to get advertising clicks by repeatedly spamming judgemental stereotypes from popular sexual mythology.

if_i_really_have_to: The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency. The fact this term is always applied to men about themselves shows what a big old ugly male entitlement concept it is.

You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail. You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch? So you never, in fact, respected or liked her as a person in her own right, it was all about what you could get for yourself and what she would do for you; a return on your investment.

I bet you think you're a nice guy.

/God forbid women should want to be friends with men

Yea pretty much, but I realized that early on that I could really only be friends with truly gay mean and truly straight women, anything else was just well...

tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song.

I hate you so much right now.

Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like $2 wortha quarters in the jukebox: Link Link Link Link Link UsikFark: tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song. I hate you so much right now. Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like$2 wortha quarters in the jukebox:

One of these days I need to figure out how YouTube playlists work. And it might be fun to have a FARK extension that turned all YouTube links for any thread into a playlist.

CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Agreed.

A lot of friendzoning is done by girls (I won't say 'women') who are users, the kind that have multiple male friends that are each useful for whatever emotional need they have at a particular moment. They may not be doing this totally consciously, as they probably got away with this behavior (without anyone calling them on it) for so long that it's their primary means of dealing with others. They don't notice it, and the revolving door of disposable guy friends keeps on turning.

Through experience I've learned that the moment you think you like a girl, ask her out; if she declines in any way, be cordial but keep her at arm's length and move on.

Dating and courtship are forgotten arts, so to any self-identified young men I say: stop thinking the time and effort you're putting in are working - they're not; to her you're just a means to an end.

tinfoil-hat maggie: Yea pretty much, but I realized that early on that I could really only be friends with truly gay mean and truly straight women, anything else was just well...

I think this Freudian slip would suggest you can only be friends with truly gay mean women and truly straight women regardless of how mean or friendly they are but cannot be friends with men of any kind. Maybe due to misandry, or your desire to bed them and fear of being rejected or worse, friendzoned.

Or maybe not, perhaps it's just a typo.

if_i_really_have_to: The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency. The fact this term is always applied to men about themselves shows what a big old ugly male entitlement concept it is.

You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail. You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch? So you never, in fact, respected or liked her as a person in her own right, it was all about what you could get for yourself and what she would do for you; a return on your investment.

Yes. This is true. This is all true. Men have no use for women other than sexual intercourse and every relationship a man has with a woman is like a biological vending machine that he puts kindness quarters into until sex comes out.

So....knowing this....what are you going to do about it?

Ah, a Jezebel link mentioning men.
No good can come of this.

It's just not the same until you can see how wired Young was.

UsikFark: tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song.

I hate you so much right now.

Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like $2 wortha quarters in the jukebox: Link Link Link Link Link I'd ad this one to the list Link Tellingthem: UsikFark: tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song. I hate you so much right now. Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like$2 wortha quarters in the jukebox:

Too new. Needs spandex or hair.

RoyBatty: tinfoil-hat maggie: Yea pretty much, but I realized that early on that I could really only be friends with truly gay mean and truly straight women, anything else was just well...

I think this Freudian slip would suggest you can only be friends with truly gay mean women and truly straight women regardless of how mean or friendly they are but cannot be friends with men of any kind. Maybe due to misandry, or your desire to bed them and fear of being rejected or worse, friendzoned.

Or maybe not, perhaps it's just a typo.

Sorry the "gay mean" was supposed to be gay men and well I'm not saying I;m all that, it's just as far as choosing real friends that aren't trying to get into me pants or I'm not trying to get into theirs well as a bi-girl for just friends their aren't many options. Granted I do believe it's possible to have friendships with people you would sleep with .

dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

The whole "hasn't had a serious relationship in his life" thing is an impossible barrier, one of the many I deal with.

I was a freakishly late bloomer, thus was about 8 years behind my peers in wanting to figure out what the fark you do when you realize you like someone. So I'm completely baffled by how and why people get together; it's the hardest thing I've ever done, and never really successfully. Most relationships fizzle out fast because I'm absolutely clueless, and the older I get the more of a problem it becomes. I think women sense that, or it's just really obvious, in me and it just keeps getting more difficult to sustain a relationship beyond a few weeks.

I move slowly because I have no idea what I'm doing, and women just don't have that kind of patience. Hence I'm pretty adept at reading pre-friendzoning signals and bail out before that happens or I completely humiliate myself (which I've done way too many times).

UsikFark: tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song.

I hate you so much right now.

Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like $2 wortha quarters in the jukebox: Link Link Link Link Link Those days are over thank the goddess but You and your friend well : ) Telos: Gunther: Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it. Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything. I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover? Or entertaining fantasies about other people? How many married people spice up their sex lives by role-playing as different people? I don't think everyone thinks like me, but I DO think a lot of people sublimate their desires in the face of culture... and that we aren't a terribly monogamous species. How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives? If you do know some, how many of them did that completely by choice? Then how many weren't highly religious? I'm betting the answers to those questions trend towards 0. I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend. /25, been dating since we were 18. //We're marrying next year UsikFark: Tellingthem: UsikFark: tinfoil-hat maggie: UsikFark: You're drunk. It's 3am and your ears are ringing. Everyone left. You walk out into the cold on stiff legs, knowing you're going home alone. This is your song. I hate you so much right now. Come on, screeching ballads are all a man needs sometimes. Besides, I put like$2 wortha quarters in the jukebox:

Too new. Needs spandex or hair.

kbotc: I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

That's nice.

How many guys do you suppose she's farked?

AverageAmericanGuy: kbotc: I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

That's nice.

How many guys do you suppose she's farked?

I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

kbotc: I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

So she told you there was one other then? With men, divide the number of partners they claim by 3 to find the real number. Multiply by 3 for women. Obviously, this is just a rule of thumb, etc.

Occam's Disposable Razor: testosterone drops severely after age 25

".....testosterone drops severely after age 25" - not if you're a bodybuilder bro! My levels, when routinely checked, are nearly five times the amounts shown on your charts. You sure those aren't for castrated eunuchs?

untaken_name: kbotc: I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

So she told you there was one other then? With men, divide the number of partners they claim by 3 to find the real number. Multiply by 3 for women. Obviously, this is just a rule of thumb, etc.

So, have you stopped beating your wife for being a whore yet?

kbotc: untaken_name: kbotc: I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

So she told you there was one other then? With men, divide the number of partners they claim by 3 to find the real number. Multiply by 3 for women. Obviously, this is just a rule of thumb, etc.

So, have you stopped beating your wife for being a whore yet?

Of course not. Why would I stop when she's still being a whore? Stupid question, man.

Gawdzila: They're not looking for her to "reward" them with her body, they're looking for her to reciprocate their feelings of being interested in a relationship. And if you get to know someone for a little while and find yourself attracted to them in a way that they don't reciprocate, do you honestly think it is the better option to keep hanging around and pretending not to be interested? Are you under the impression that you can simply decide not to have feelings for someone?

Yes. It's called accepting rejection and getting over it. It hurts. You have to weigh your friendship vs. your crush. Is this a good friend that you developed feelings for, or is it someone you starting hanging out with to work your way into sex/a relationship?

Say you had a close friend. You develop feelings for her. You ask her out, and get "friendzoned". Do you flush the friendship because you can't handle rejection maturely? If yes, then what kind of friend were you really, and was it a friendship at all? Be honest about it, is the friendship worth keeping? Maybe the answer is no, and that's fine too. But to bail on a friend because you have unrequited feelings is sad.

Why did I read this thread? It's only going to depress me.

Lernaeus: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Agreed.

A lot of friendzoning is done by girls (I won't say 'women') who are users, the kind that have multiple male friends that are each useful for whatever emotional need they have at a particular moment. They may not be doing this totally consciously, as they probably got away with this behavior (without anyone calling them on it) for so long that it's their primary means of dealing with others. They don't notice it, and the revolving door of disposable guy friends keeps on turning.

Through experience I've learned that the moment you think you like a girl, ask her out; if she declines in any way, be cordial but keep her at arm's length and move on.

Dating and courtship are forgotten arts, so to any self-identified young men I say: stop thinking the time and effort you're putting in are working - they're not; to her you're just a means to an end.

I agree. I've come to realize any healthy functional interaction between two people must be an equal exchange or it will eventually fall apart. You can see this in pretty much anyway two people interact. When 1 person is taking more than they are giving or the other person is expecting more then the other person is willing to give, the relationship is doomed. Look at buying and selling. Each side has to feel like they are both getting and giving up something of value. If the price is too high or low for one or the other, the sale won't be made.

But you can see this concept in relationships too. Both sides have to feel like continuing the relationship is a positive thing. If one friend is always using the other, but in turn never helps, the other friend will eventually get pissed and cut it off. Husbands and wives also must be willing to give to each other just as much as they receive. Keep in mind that the attitude of "I'm only giving her/him what they want just to get what I want" is NOT healthy. Both sides should be wanting to help and please the other. But in practice, if they are truly doing that, than they will also both be getting just as much as they give. A husband should want to please his wife by doing anything from going down on her to just randomly doing the laundry or cleaning. Not because he expects something in return, but because her being happy is a good thing to him. Likewise for wives. They should find true personal joy in just pleasing their man. Not just having sex in return for mowing the lawn. But having sex or letting him watch hockey, or whatever, not just for their own enjoyment, but because the idea of a happy husband really makes her happy too. The others happiness should be the motivation. But if both do this, they will both also be receiving just as much from the other too.

Friendzoning is wrong because if often flies in the face of this. As Learnaeus said, often friendzoning is when the girl essentially collects a following of pathetic guys she knows are at her disposal for anything she wants. She can always turn to one of them for a ride, a compliment, someone to take her to the club or bar (and of course to leave behind or keep around as a third wheel when she meets a guy she actually wants). They are the guy friends who will help her with a college paper because she was busy partying. They'll come jump her car, or bring her lunch at work, or just tell her how beautiful she is when she drops a few "my hair looks so bad today =(" hints. These girls have often grown up from adolescence with guys fawning all over them that it's just life to them. They've always had an entourage of guys who just want to be around her. When she gets older she realizes that a touch of the arm here, maybe a drunken kiss once or twice keeps that hope burning inside the guy. Just enough to make sure he sticks around. He's the guy she complains about her boyfriend too. The guy who will pick her up from a bad date. The male "friend" isn't a friend in her eyes. He's a resource.

Now of course, not all female friend relationships have this "slave/master" aspect. Nothing is wrong with just being friends with a girl. Others have tried to say that cutting contact with a girl for not wanting to be more than friends is throwing a tantrum. Or that the guy thinks he deserve pussy. That's bullshiat. The fact is, both parties in the friendship deserve equal expectations and equal fulfillment. It doesn't have to be underhanded or bitter. If a girl just wants a friend but the guy wants to date, the girl will be fulfilled but the guy won't. It's unequal, so it's doomed. Both really are better off finding someone else. Neither the guy or girl are wrong for expecting what they want. The girl is not wrong for wanting just a male friend. And the guy is not wrong for having romantic or sexual desires and wanting a female partner who wants to fulfill these. Both should just be aware that if they cannot both be equally satisfied by their relationship, they are both better off looking for someone else. No need to get mad about it unless someone is being dishonest. Just agree that you're both better off apart.

It's not always just about sex with the guy, or girl. It's about having a personal need and wanting to find the right person who wants to fulfill it for you. Sometimes it will be a sexual desire. But it can often also be a true romantic relationship. A guy can just as easily fall in love and want to date or even marry a girl...who just wants to be his friend. Again: unequal=doomed. A friend has to want to be your friend as much as you want to be theirs. A boyfriend/girlfriend has to want to date you just as much as you want to date them. A wife or husband has to need you in their life as much as you need them. These are equal expectations and equal fulfillment.

So again, "friendzoning" is not the same as a guy having a female friend. Just being friends is fine. Both expect friendship, both fulfill friendship. equality satisfied. But "friendzoning" is when there is an element of inequality. Where one wants more but the other does not. At its best, it's when one really does want to be real friends but the other wants more. At its worst there is a "slave/master" aspect and one is actively using the other and only maintaining the "friendship" to keep taking from them. Both will eventually cause lots of pain an fall apart.

I've experienced both, and am no longer willing to participate in either. And as a precaution, I no longer let myself become friends with females. Could I be missing out on some real friendships? Yep. But I've learned enough about myself to know that it's not worth the risk. I don't trust my own emotions not to fall for a female friend.

AverageAmericanGuy: Telos: She won't even let me go to a strip club.

let ??

The sh*t people will put up with is amazing. Good luck with such a loving, secure relationship. Have several children.

At first glance I thought that was the "Lezebel" tag!

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

You are just jealous because he did not sleep with you on that weekend trip.

CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

There are only two responses if you are an immature little prick. If is different once you grow up and actually become mature.

Myth or not, I find plenty of men aren't too bothered allowing themselves to be perceived as such. I also find plenty of men either passively or actively shame other men who make any attempt to break ranks.

The guy tried to kill his girlfriend.
As a professor, the guy took a group of students on a weekend trip and slept with four of the girls.
As a professor, the guy regularly slept with his students.
He repeatedly had sex with a woman, and helped her deceive her husband into believing it was his when there was a very good chance it was Hugo's kid. He has tried to justify this continuing and ongoing deception by saying he wasn't ready to be a father.

That guy is a sociopath.

To be fair, it'd also be nice if Jezebel would stop giving him whitespace to shart in.

AverageAmericanGuy: dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

And you know the size of Stu's dick?..

If I could afford it I would sponsor you for a month of Total Fark for that comment. Alas, too many bills to pay.

I think a lot of this issue comes down to how you approach your interaction with a woman in the first place. This is the problem I've always had, though I wouldn't say I've ever been "friendzoned", per se, simply because I haven't really had any close female friends. I'm too cautious a person- it's very hard for me to decide to even be friends with anyone based on a random chance encounter. It usually takes several meetings/interactions for that to happen, with anyone. Also, I just don't feel much immediate attraction for anyone, or maybe because of my cautiousness I've conditioned myself to repress it. Anyway, getting back to the point, my own experience is that if you don't immediately act on the attraction at the first opportunity, the best you can hope for is friendship, and that is all you should expect. I don't think men and women develop attraction the same way, or, if they do, women are far less likely to act on it, at any time, and if they guy doesn't act on it right away, they lose interest.

For myself, I really wonder if I'm doomed to be alone. Being alone in itself doesn't frighten me, because I currently get (what feels like) sufficient joy out of exploring/analyzing the rest of the world. What concerns me is that I'll eventually hit a point at which that need for exploration no longer suffices, and it will be too late.

Experience makes me want relationships I suppose, but something casual probably wouldn't be that bad. Never really tried it.

Eh. Once again I get to the interesting threads late. Anyway, I'll preface this by saying that I DRTFA and I'm basically responding/relating to the conversations at hand. Even though practically no one will end up reading this.

I want a relationship. I'm not interested in casual sex and have never been. Yes, I have had female friends that I had absolutely no desire to sleep with. Well, a part of me did but that's not the part that has ever been in control and thus never had influence on the friendship. This is because I attach emotional meaning to the act. Without that emotional connection I have no desire for sex. Yes, even if someone were to throw herself at me with absolutely no strings. No deeper connection, no go.

I'm not your usual guy for many reasons. One of the bigger reasons I just stated. Beyond that I'm also a, as I prefer to put it, functional geek. I enjoy many geek things (as well as non geek things) but I'm fine in social situations, for the most part. I just prefer smaller groups of people and a smaller amount of strong relationships (friends) over a large amount of lesser ones. I'm also introverted (inwardly focused). I also have zero interest in many common things like beer, sports, bar scene, etc. Combine all that with the fact that I'm not exactly attractive and the pool of people who would be interested in me is almost zero.

Then, there's me. I treat emotional connections and the concept of romance seriously. I'm not that kind who looks at dating as just a way to have some fleeting fun with new people. If that's your thing, then good for you and I wish you joy. But it's not for me. The notion of "state your intentions at the start" also doesn't apply to me because I never have those intentions from the start. That's because I need to like someone as a person first before the idea of romance can grow. Hell, I don't understand how people can say right off the bat that they are interested in that kind of thing before they even know someone. It feels as if they're trying to make something happen instead of letting something happen. It just seems to unnatural.

And that's what I need. I need to get to know someone and like her as a person before I can start to want more. "Hey, you seem hot and/or interesting" isn't enough to make me desire someone. Being interesting is enough to want to try to get to know someone as a friend, but that's only the first step. She has to mean a lot to me before she can mean so much more to me.

I want her to also be my best friend. For her to be the person who means the most to me and who I want to be around more than anyone else. How many couples do you see and hear from who don't seem to get along? How many guys complain that their girlfriend wants to drag him to places he's not interested in at all and how he can't stand half of the stuff that she says? How many women complain that all he wants to do is hang out with his friends and just ignores her when something is on the TV? Why are these people together? If it's just for the physical then be honest with each other and don't pretend that you have something more. I don't want to be like that and I can't truly want someone unless I desire every part of them. We don't need to overlap 100% but I need to want to be with her more than anyone else.

I'm 27. I had a girlfriend (and at the end, fiancee) for 7 years. But she was basically using me as an escape from her emotionally abusive family life. She just wasn't honest with herself about what she was doing. After I helped her escape that bad situation and gave her a calm life she was forced to face reality. She left me for a guy who is 8 years older than me, is many things she said she would never date, and married to and living with someone else.

I was devastated. Crushed. Everything was genuine on my end and I was hit with this out of nowhere. It took me about 3 months to start to long process of feeling better. Fast forward to a little more than a year after being dumped. I met someone interesting. We became fast friends. We're both oddballs. We seemed to click in a way that we couldn't with most other people and she accepted me for who I was. Skip to about 3 months after we met and I realized that something more was starting to grow within me. I was falling for her.

For someone to make me feel that way is rare. Hell, this is only the second time ever. I started to try to make the move into showing this. Over one conversation she says that she mentioned me to her best friend who lives in the state that she came from, and how she doesn't do that with just anyone. I asked what she told her and she said that I'm, "honest, loyal, and kind." Hrm. Sounds dangerously "just friends" but it might be a good sign. One day over lunch we're talking and she says that I'm a great friend. I ask (with a chuckle to hide my fear), "Oh, so just a friend, eh?" to which she responds that I'm, "the perfect friend. But beyond that... I'll just stop right there." followed by a, "I'm not girlfriend material." which I translated to, "you're not boyfriend material."

... fark.

Alright, so I need to do something and do something fast. I'm racking my brain to try to find the best way to say something and the best way to tell her how I feel. Cut to a week later and something happened. Something bad. Something that forced me into a "now or never" situation. So the next night we get together and I tell her. She reacted the way that I pretty much expected. She's not interested. I'm not her type. I'm too "honest and pure" for her and she wants someone that she'll "be a little afraid of".

As of today, which is about a month after that happened, she has a boyfriend. So it looks like my translation back then was true.

It takes a lot for me to want to be with someone. I don't treat that kind of relationship as a plaything to just have lighthearted/cheap fun with. Because of that, and because the amount of women who would be possibly interested in me is very small, I'm pretty damn sure that I'm going to be alone for the majority of my life. I've accepted this as a very real possibility but I can't come to terms with it.

I need to get out and try to meet people. I can't allow this to be my fate. I just... don't know how.

/I feel a little better now after venting.
//If you read all of that, even if you think I'm a pathetic fool, I appreciate it.
///Off to go hide in my shop for a while so my coworkers can't see that I feel like shiat right now.

AverageAmericanGuy:

LOL. No, but really. I love her too much to take advantage of her in that situation.

Then tell her you'd like to take advantage of her in a consensual situation. Be detailed in your description of how you'd go about doing so.

Either you'll get what you really want out of your relationship with her, or she clearly defines your residence in the friend zone and you can move on with your life.

You know, I don't believe in the friend zone. I've been with a few women, and what they like is a confident, physically attractive man who smiles at them and exudes this one particular attitude:

"I'm having a great time hanging with you and talking. I would totally jump your bones, let me be very clear on that- you're attractive and I'm not stupid- but it's cool that we're just hanging and chatting too. Let's go do something interesting and fun together"

If you have that attitude and it's not working, start exercising more. If you've got that attitude and a decent physical appearance, check to make sure you aren't acting, faking security, or a leering weirdo. My experience is that women are actually pretty free in their choices of who to have sex with, and the friend zone is the perfect place to make your move from. Everyone, EVERYONE is more comfortable around people they've known for a while than they are with strangers, so if your ability to get into the bed zone from the friend zone isn't better than a stranger's, you have to contemplate why that might be. It could be a glaring character fault.

from my blood: thesloppy: Exactly how much action am I going to get if I leave my copy of "A Natural History of Rape" out on the table?

Put 20 locks on the front door. Lock some, leave others open.
Put bars on the windows.
Hide anything that could be used as a weapon.

Watch her freak out trying to get out.
Trying to figure out which way to turn the locks.
"Awww, Did you want me to unlock the door for you?"

Then you find out she has a black belt.
And she has a penis.

David, is that you?

Duck_of_Doom: Yes. It's called accepting rejection and getting over it. It hurts. You have to weigh your friendship vs. your crush. Is this a good friend that you developed feelings for, or is it someone you starting hanging out with to work your way into sex/a relationship?

Say you had a close friend. You develop feelings for her. You ask her out, and get "friendzoned". Do you flush the friendship because you can't handle rejection maturely? If yes, then what kind of friend were you really, and was it a friendship at all? Be honest about it, is the friendship worth keeping? Maybe the answer is no, and that's fine too. But to bail on a friend because you have unrequited feelings is sad.

More sad than spending your life hanging around someone and wallowing in those unrequited feelings?

AbbeySomeone: AverageAmericanGuy: Telos: She won't even let me go to a strip club.

let ??

The sh*t people will put up with is amazing. Good luck with such a loving, secure relationship. Have several children.

*roll* Really? It upsets her and we end up fighting. Do you make a habit of consistently doing things that upset your partners? It's not like it's all that important to me to see strippers.

ChaoticLimbs: You know, I don't believe in the friend zone. I've been with a few women, and what they like is a confident, physically attractive man who smiles at them and exudes this one particular attitude:

"I'm having a great time hanging with you and talking. I would totally jump your bones, let me be very clear on that- you're attractive and I'm not stupid- but it's cool that we're just hanging and chatting too. Let's go do something interesting and fun together"

If you have that attitude and it's not working, start exercising more. If you've got that attitude and a decent physical appearance, check to make sure you aren't acting, faking security, or a leering weirdo. My experience is that women are actually pretty free in their choices of who to have sex with, and the friend zone is the perfect place to make your move from. Everyone, EVERYONE is more comfortable around people they've known for a while than they are with strangers, so if your ability to get into the bed zone from the friend zone isn't better than a stranger's, you have to contemplate why that might be. It could be a glaring character fault.

Yup. I've been the sexless boyfriend a few times. Hated it, took a break and did some real deep self evaluation and realized I had a lot of unresolved problems that needed to be dealt with. Once you honestly do some cleaning house, that attitude you described comes naturally.

To anyone reading this far, get the book "The Manual" by W. Anton. Best book I've ever read on the topic. No stupid peacocking or a+b-7(2)^=sex. Just a very thorough look at how and why your behavior is causing all these problems.

There really needs to be a class for boys/young men about women and dating. Get taught this stuff early so both men and women can be happy.

Occam's Disposable Razor: My advice in this situation?

brokentoys.org
Just walk away...

Or you could be friends, and just accept that the two of you are just really unlikely to have sex.

I applaud the men here who would rather walk away and (maybe) explain why to a female friend they are attracted to, as much as I applaud any woman who explicitly indicates her non-attraction to an interested male friend. Otherwise, you set up a situation where one party or the other is going to be ambushed by obligations they never actually agreed to. A "betrayal" occurs, and so the gates holding back a flood of anger open wide and the friendship washes away with it.

Separation really is is the best course of action if you think you are setting up hidden obligations for the other person. Continuing a friendship while harboring greater expectations really isn't fair to the other person otherwise. When you get over your feelings, THEN you can reassess whether or not the friendship is worth reviving.

Wherever it came from, I like the term "covert contract". Boys and girls need to stop making them. No one owes you a goddamn thing if you don't come out and say what you want. It's like eyeing the peas at the dinner table and then eyeing person who you want passing it to you. Maybe they - if they are paying you any attention - figure it out and pass them to you. But chances are more likely that they are distracted by someone else, can't interpret your gestures, and/or just want you to stop being weird and farking ask for them out of principle.

Granted, I didn't learn these lessons without regretfully farking up, both as the friendzoner and friendzonee. Sometimes I wonder if kids might benefit from relationship-ED paired along with sex-ED, so that they are prompted to start thinking about their expectations from other people and how to communicate them effectively.

/blargh. ramble ramble. need moar coffee.

I've popped my cherry! and like most... I find myself looking back and going, really? with this?

/submitter
//first time never as good as you hope

kbotc: Telos: Gunther: Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner

Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.

I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover? Or entertaining fantasies about other people? How many married people spice up their sex lives by role-playing as different people?

I don't think everyone thinks like me, but I DO think a lot of people sublimate their desires in the face of culture... and that we aren't a terribly monogamous species. How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives? If you do know some, how many of them did that completely by choice? Then how many weren't highly religious?

I'm betting the answers to those questions trend towards 0.

I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

Really? So you didn't WANT to date someone when you were 16? You didn't have anyone else you wanted to have sex with, ever?

Because if you did, then you didn't choose to only have one sex partner. You just failed to obtain the first one you wanted.

To all you friend zone men,

Take a course on massage. I slept with all of my "friends" after a good rubdown, especially foot rubs for the ones that wore high heels all the time. You are welcome!

AverageAmericanGuy: CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

Yes, because I'm always going to want more, and that will make me unhappy. So, "See ya!"

I wish I'd spotted this thread last night. However, some free advice from a man that learned how to avoid, break out of, or when desired remain in the "friend zone:"

If you wonder that you might be getting used, the next time that she asks you to move her couch or fix her computer, tell her to go over to your house and prepare dinner or wash your car or do your laundry of some other task that would benefit you in her skill set.

If she refuses, she's not your friend. If she accepts, she is. You may not get pussy but at least you have some respect and an actual friend.

tamsnod27: To all you friend zone men,

Take a course on massage. I slept with all of my "friends" after a good rubdown, especially foot rubs for the ones that wore high heels all the time. You are welcome!

This is also solid advice that will also serve you if you decide to get married. Women love a good foot rub, but the mother of your children will LOVE them.

BuckTurgidson: [everythingfunny.org image 540x450]

blipponaut: Sex doesn't interest me like it did when I was in college. In fact, casual sex has never interested me. I need that mental stimulation along with the physical. Getting laid is not a challenge, it's finding someone worth wanting to lay. I can go out and get laid fairly easy, but it's just not worth the energy and time. I'd rather do other, more meaningful, things.

Sure, it's easy to get laid fairly easily....when you're a girl....

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Your guy "friends" just don't have the stones to take the risk. Unless gay, 99% of men are only friends with women if they have some interest.

Telos: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Not likely. Even if they aren't _romantically_ interested in you they would like to have sex with you. Unless they are gay, and even then they'd probably go for it during a dry patch.

Point is, just because you don't KNOW they are interested in you doesn't mean they aren't interested. Just means they haven't told you for whatever reason.

Why are women so blind in this regard? Why do so many women not understand that the vast majority of men are not "friends" with women unless they are sexually interested in them?

if_i_really_have_to: I bet you think you're a nice guy.

/God forbid women should want to be friends with men

Good, bad, I'm the guy who was the final say on his own life. If I'm good or bad, that's up for the world to decide when I'm dead.

Telos: To all the people saying you should accept the friend zone: It's debatable really. The options are:

1) Accept it. Keep longing for her every time she's around. Keep getting sad when she leaves. Eventually do something stupid that ruins the friendship.

2) End the friendship. This is not a tantrum, as someone suggested earlier. Ending a friendship for any reason is a decision, and if a person thinks they will be happier without a friendship then it is actually the responsible choice to make.

3) This is the hard one, but it's the "non-dickish" way to handle it without the pain. Stop desiring the woman, then you can remain her friend without the pain.

Is that like "praying away the gay"? 'Cuz that totally works.

/the heart wants what it wants

EsteeFlwrPot: CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

You know it. I remember/missed you!!

Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Mmmmm.... well, I can't speak for your particular friends, but I can at least assure you that -- even if they aren't romantically interested -- some of them would probably love to have sex with you. If any of them were romantically interested in you, they might try to hide it.

Imma let you in on a little secret: the only thing most guys need to become interested in having sex with someone is for them to be physically attracted to them. I know that might be hard to fathom because most women don't really work that way, but it's true. You're a cute girl, so I imagine at least a couple of your single guy friends would totally jump in the sack with you if you asked them to.

Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Do they think of you in platonic terms? Do any of them want to sleep with you? Have they not said something or made a move because they have no balls? I could determine the truth of the situation if I saw a photo of you. It really, truly, is that simple...

EsteeFlwrPot: balisane: I promise that you'll live if they say no. Only you can make it awkward after that: they'll probably forget all about it in a couple of weeks. I've definitely had friendships survive it.

I think i'm the type to want to date someone that has the balls to ask me out. Not only ask me out, but do it in a funny or unique way like start a political debate or argument with me and then ask me out for coffee as we're screaming at each other about how Romney's folders full of women may really be his other wives and how he secretly plans to turn our country into the "The United States of Mormon."

Oh dear god...

I should date a farker

You and pretty much every other female. Also, you like almost all others doesn't want to risk rejection. But, you see, for the most part, if we males don't risk rejection we get exactly nowhere.

untaken_name: Tellingthem: GoldSpider: EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

'round here, I think the standard mating call is "BIE".

Hell most of the time just saying that you're a female will have guys attention around here.

\still don't get the BIE thing
\\google image = boobs on demand (why beg when boobs are a click away?)

It's like sandwiches. You can go to the store and get a sandwich. You can go to a homeless shelter and get a sandwich for free. Or you can get someone to make you a sandwich. Which are the best sandwiches? Depends on your preferences.

WTF? What is all this nonsense about oranges and sandwiches? Yeeesh...

Telos: kbotc: Telos: Gunther: Telos: I think both men and women are hard-coded to want more than one sexual partner

Depends on the person; some people are naturally monogamous, some aren't. There's nothing wrong with either as long as you're honest about it.

Assuming that everyone is like you and only pretends not to think the same way as you is possibly the worst mistake you can make, not just about sex but about everything.

I think "naturally monogamous" is really, really rare. Like I said, if they are really monogamous why are they drooling over a magazine cover? Or entertaining fantasies about other people? How many married people spice up their sex lives by role-playing as different people?

I don't think everyone thinks like me, but I DO think a lot of people sublimate their desires in the face of culture... and that we aren't a terribly monogamous species. How many people do you know that have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives? If you do know some, how many of them did that completely by choice? Then how many weren't highly religious?

I'm betting the answers to those questions trend towards 0.

I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

Really? So you didn't WANT to date someone when you were 16? You didn't have anyone else you wanted to have sex with, ever?

Because if you did, then you didn't choose to only have one sex partner. You just failed to obtain the first one you wanted.

OK, my internet ate my much longer post, but I'll summarize quickly: I tried with one other girl when I was 17 and she rebuffed me, but I went into that looking for something more than just a fling and maybe I would have stopped there if we had worked out.

I know some other men who are quite content with zero or one sexual partner. I also know men who go trolling for tail every night. If you're happy with what you're doing, who am I to judge? Different strokes for different folks.

/Why are some people so obsessed with other people's numbers?
//Also why do some people feel challenged when it turns out other people disagree with their ideas on how people "should" behave?
///The least happy people I know are the ones who try and find their self worth in the sack.
////Especially if they keep count.

kbotc: ///The least happy people I know are the ones who try and find their self worth in the sack.
////Especially if they keep count.

ONE failed sexual encounter... TWO failed sexual encounters THREE failed sexual encounters! AH AH AH!

AcneVulgaris: kbotc: ///The least happy people I know are the ones who try and find their self worth in the sack.
////Especially if they keep count.

ONE failed sexual encounter... TWO failed sexual encounters THREE failed sexual encounters! AH AH AH!

I can totally picture The Count doing this...

So guys today are a bunch of pussies, huh?

"By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education."

MoxieLover: EsteeFlwrPot: CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

You know it. I remember/missed you!!

Gawdzila: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

Mmmmm.... well, I can't speak for your particular friends, but I can at least assure you that -- even if they aren't romantically interested -- some of them would probably love to have sex with you. If any of them were romantically interested in you, they might try to hide it.

Imma let you in on a little secret: the only thing most guys need to become interested in having sex with someone is for them to be physically attracted to them. I know that might be hard to fathom because most women don't really work that way, but it's true. You're a cute girl, so I imagine at least a couple of your single guy friends would totally jump in the sack with you if you asked them to.

Nah, a lot of them are just platonic friends. I really doubt they would ever just want to sleep with me, they definitely would have said something by now or made a move.

Do they think of you in platonic terms? Do any of them want to sleep with you? Have they not said something or made a move because they have no balls? I could determine the truth of the situation if I saw a photo of you. It really, truly, is that simple...

She is pretty hot, IMHO, so yeah, they wanna sleep with her but don't want to screw up the friend thing

factoryconnection: I wish I'd spotted this thread last night. However, some free advice from a man that learned how to avoid, break out of, or when desired remain in the "friend zone:"

If you wonder that you might be getting used, the next time that she asks you to move her couch or fix her computer, tell her to go over to your house and prepare dinner or wash your car or do your laundry of some other task that would benefit you in her skill set.

If she refuses, she's not your friend. If she accepts, she is. You may not get pussy but at least you have some respect and an actual friend.

Not to mention dinner and clean clothes! :P

juvandy: For myself, I really wonder if I'm doomed to be alone. Being alone in itself doesn't frighten me, because I currently get (what feels like) sufficient joy out of exploring/analyzing the rest of the world. What concerns me is that I'll eventually hit a point at which that need for exploration no longer suffices, and it will be too late.

This. At some point, typically in his 30s, a single male needs people in his life a lot more than people need him in theirs. There's still a lot of unspoken judgment that says, "Late to the dance? Fark you, go home alone."

"By the time they get to college, girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any attention to them. It's all very cruel and atavistic and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn as part of one's sexual education."

Titty sprinkles.

Need_MindBleach: See now, that's farked up. The girl who did that was a biatch. If you both pay, she has no reason to think its a date unless you've said so, but if you pay, it's a date.

/female

Now, this puts me in a tricky position that I've yet to completely figure out on the first few dates (I've just winged it so far). I have a job. I don't need the guy to pay for everything, and I don't want to make him think I'm going to use up all his money. Yet, at the same time, I don't want him interpreting my offering to split the bill as a sign I'm not interested. What to do.

Let him take you out on the first date. If you're still interested in seeing him again, tell him you're taking him out next time. I don't see how he could misinterpret any of that. It still clearly shows your intent.

Finding yourself in the friend zone? Stop that. Stay friends if you want, but date other people instead. You'll keep your dignity and become stronger and less needy in the process. Then maybe, just maybe, things could work out with your 'friend' in the end. But even if they don't you'll still be a better person for it.

what the cat dragged in: Finding yourself in the friend zone? Stop that. Stay friends if you want, but date other people instead. You'll keep your dignity and become stronger and less needy in the process. Then maybe, just maybe, things could work out with your 'friend' in the end. But even if they don't you'll still be a better person for it.

This is a good philosophy, but also an opportunity to see how messed up their relationship is with this "platonic" friend. This certainly happens with both genders, when the "disinterested" party suddenly becomes quite protective when another suitor comes prowling about their former fanclub president. The perceived stock value of the formerly puppy-dog-eyed pursuer rises sharply when other buyers appear.

I have always wanted relationships and the main reason is that if I like a person enough to want to have sex with them I will want to have more sex with them than just a few times here and there. I have turned down casual sex quite a number of times though in my late 30s those offers are becoming rarer and I am less likely to turn them down. I currently have a lady friend that I call my girlfriend and we do have a relationship though there are no restrictions and surprisingly that was the way she wanted it and not me. We are both pretty sexually open.

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

you sound fat

factoryconnection: what the cat dragged in: Finding yourself in the friend zone? Stop that. Stay friends if you want, but date other people instead. You'll keep your dignity and become stronger and less needy in the process. Then maybe, just maybe, things could work out with your 'friend' in the end. But even if they don't you'll still be a better person for it.

This is a good philosophy, but also an opportunity to see how messed up their relationship is with this "platonic" friend. This certainly happens with both genders, when the "disinterested" party suddenly becomes quite protective when another suitor comes prowling about their former fanclub president. The perceived stock value of the formerly puppy-dog-eyed pursuer rises sharply when other buyers appear.

Well, I'd probably agree with that sentiment except that I've been through this... and it didn't work that way at all.

You're not the only one. I am still baffled about how people actually get together. It seems with others that after a few dates they are officially 'dating', but for me after a few dates the girls stop responding. I've always taken that as them not being interested, but after 10 years of it, I really must be doing something wrong.

Lernaeus: dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

The whole "hasn't had a serious relationship in his life" thing is an impossible barrier, one of the many I deal with.

I was a freakishly late bloomer, thus was about 8 years behind my peers in wanting to figure out what the fark you do when you realize you like someone. So I'm completely baffled by how and why people get together; it's the hardest thing I've ever done, and never really successfully. Most relationships fizzle out fast because I'm absolutely clueless, and the older I get the more of a problem it becomes. I think women sense that, or it's just really obvious, in me and it just keeps getting more difficult to sustain a relationship beyond a few weeks.

I move slowly because I have no idea what I'm doing, and women just don't have that kind of patience. Hence I'm pretty adept at reading pre-friendzoning signals and bail out before that happens or I completely humiliate myself (which I've done way too many times).

MoxieLover:

Why are women so blind in this regard? Why do so many women not understand that the vast majority of men are not "friends" with women unless they are sexually interested in them?

Plenty of women sleep with and continue to sleep with the men they like in the hopes that he will fall in love and escalate the relationship to marriage. Why are men so blind in this regard? Why do they not understand that the vast majority of women are not just "fark buddies" with a man unless they romantically interested in him?

Because in the end, a lot of people desire their cake and to eat it, too.

kbotc: AverageAmericanGuy: kbotc: I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

That's nice.

How many guys do you suppose she's farked?

I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

Ctrl-Alt-Del: kbotc: AverageAmericanGuy: kbotc: I've had one sexual partner my entire life. Entirely by choice. Not particularly religious either. I just really hit it off with my first girlfriend.

/25, been dating since we were 18.
//We're marrying next year

That's nice.

How many guys do you suppose she's farked?

I'm her third. Not like I'm a rube.

[lunkiandsika.files.wordpress.com image 796x447]

If that's true, what I don't know won't hurt me. I'll prefer to think the person who trusts me enough to plan a family together trusts me enough to not lie.

pxlboy: CygnusDarius: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You've been lurking for a while, have you?.

Based on what I have seen her post in years past, I'd not sure if she's lying or is really that oblivious.

My Ex was pretty street-smart but NEVER figured out that all those guys weren't really her friends. Told her to talk some shiz about me to them one day and watch how they'd react. She still couldn't see it. I'm convinced that women internalize all the flattery & bullshiz until they actually believe that "these guys just want to be friends cuz I'm so awseome".

But her? she's trolling...

dopekitty74: Let me tell you a story about two guys, Dan and Stu

Dan is 32, short, a biatchubby, with glasses and a bad leg that makes him limp a bit. Wears alot of tie-dyed shirts and generally has very little fashion sense.

Stu is 34, tall, lean and while slightly balding, not unattractive and has a bigger dick than Dan.

Dan has had flings and relationships and now a marriage with a like-minded woman.

Stu has never had a serious relationship in his life, doesn't have a clue how to talk to women and when they do show any interest at all, clings to them like they were the last floating timber of a sinking ship.

By the way, both of them are huge nerds, into video games and other various nerdy endeavours

it all comes down to some guys have social skills to deal with women, and some don't

/Dan's wife

Throw Stu a pity-fark.

farkin_noob: I friend zoned my bestest guy friend from high school. I really didn't want to ruin our friendship and told him so. We ended up getting married a few years later. Six years after that he tried to throw me off a fourth floor balcony.

Moral of the story, men you friend zone never forgive and will try to kill you one day. :-\

Sounds like you cheated.

I'm a woman in my late 30s and have a good bit of experience with men as friends. I've got 3 situation in my life right now. #1 we've been friends forever, when he was going through his divorce he was interested in me. Because he is my friend I know him well enough to know us getting involved would end badly based on our particular character quirks. We are still friends now that he's over his post divorce crazy I've pointed out and he has agreed that while he might think I'm physically attractive actually going there and doing that would end badly. He has married someone else and is much happier with her and she is much better for him than I could ever be. I'm very happy for him. #2 again we've been friends forever, I was under the impression he wasn't attracted to me as in my experience he likes them younger and flashier than myself. I've thought he was hot forever. He once suggested we get together I said yes and he ran away deciding once I said yes that getting together would ruin our friendship. Heaven forbid he ever get involved with someone who knows what an "awful" person he is and still likes him. He's got some very deep self esteem issues. We are still friends and he still flirts with me occasionally then does the metaphorical equipment of scream and run away in terror when I flirt back which I find endlessly entertaining. We are very emotinally close and have shared some very personal stuff with each other but it will probably never leave the platonic realm and if it did although I think he would be a hell of ride we probably aren't going to set up housekeeping with each other #3 I was friends with a guy forever, he was with someone else and although I knew he thought I was physically attractive nothing ever happened until it came to light I'm a masochist and he's a sadist. He doesn't get involved with anyone who isn't a masochist once our compatible interests came to light it was game on. It's been the best relationship of my life and he's my best friend as well as my primary partner several years later.

if_i_really_have_to: CygnusDarius: Here's an enactment of how to avoid friendzones:

Guy: See, I really like you. Let's date, and see what happens

Girl: Sorry, but, I'd like us to remain friends

Here's the two outcomes.

Outcome one.

Guy: Sorry, but the relationship changed the moment I felt something for you. I can't really accept your friendship because of it. Good day *walk away*

Outcome two.

Guy: *flips finger/vocal insult, walks away*

It's gonna be a lonely road, but it's gonna give you one thing: Self-respect.

/Has been frienzoned in college
//It ain't pretty

The very term "friendzone" implies the woman owes you her affections or sex, and that by not wanting you, she has harmed you. She has somehow withheld something from you that you deserved or were entitled to because you think you "earned it" just by being around. The entire term is about YOUR ENTITLEMENT with no regard to the woman's independent agency. The fact this term is always applied to men about themselves shows what a big old ugly male entitlement concept it is.

You invested in her as a person only so long as you expected her to "reward" you at the end with her heart/body. As soon as there's "nothing in it for you" you bail. You do A, B, and C and she HAS to give you your prize or she's a biatch? So you never, in fact, respected or liked her as a person in her own right, it was all about what you could get for yourself and what she would do for you; a return on your investment.

I bet you think you're a nice guy.

/God forbid women should want to be friends with men

Well let's ALL bend over backwards to make sure the woman gets what she wants...

\God forbid she doesn't get immediate gratification

That is all

EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You sound fat.

/or ugly

umad: EsteeFlwrPot: Ok the 'guy friend desperately trying to get out of the friendzone' thing is total crap. I have tons of guy friends and none of them are interested in me romantically. Everything is just a big fat myth based on a few unique situations here and there.

You sound fat.

/or ugly

Unless things have changed dramatically for her since she removed her profile picture a few years back, no, she is neither ugly nor fat. Quite the reverse in fact.

Why do we post links from Jezebel?

Srsly. It's the perfect combination of people who can't be made happy or make their minds up and a box to shout from.

MoxieLover: WTF? What is all this nonsense about oranges and sandwiches? Yeeesh...

They're called analogies. An analogy is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process.

kbotc: I'll prefer to think the person who trusts me enough to plan a family together trusts me enough to not lie.

Yeah, that's how people get away with lying. If you didn't trust them, it wouldn't work.

Duck_of_Doom: You have to weigh your friendship vs. your crush. Is this a good friend that you developed feelings for, or is it someone you starting hanging out with to work your way into sex/a relationship?

What if it is neither? You meet people all the time, often not by your own doing (friends of friends, etc).
It is possible, in fact likely, that this is someone for whom you had no particular intentions when you met them.

Duck_of_Doom: Be honest about it, is the friendship worth keeping? Maybe the answer is no, and that's fine too.

I agree, and in fact that's all I was saying.
I was only refuting the idea put forth by the person that I was responding to, that this entire "friend zone" thing is some misogynistic concept based on the idea that women are required to give us what we want if we pay attention to them or devote our time to them. The allegation was that bailing on someone -- in ANY case -- is somehow proof that we were only ever pretending to be friends in order to extract sex from her, and that we're treating her like a "biatch" because she didn't give us what we felt we were entitled to. I think that idea is wholly full of sh*t and I rebuke it.

Gawdzila: I agree, and in fact that's all I was saying.
I was only refuting the idea put forth by the person that I was responding to, that this entire "friend zone" thing is some misogynistic concept based on the idea that women are required to give us what we want if we pay attention to them or devote our time to them. The allegation was that bailing on someone -- in ANY case -- is somehow proof that we were only ever pretending to be friends in order to extract sex from her, and that we're treating her like a "biatch" because she didn't give us what we felt we were entitled to. I think that idea is wholly full of sh*t and I rebuke it.

Very well-said. Hear, hear.

MoxieLover: Why do so many women not understand that the vast majority of men are not "friends" with women unless they are sexually interested in them?

I wouldn't say that's true.
I think it is more accurate to say that friendship and sexual attraction are not linked for men. Neither is a requirement or an obstacle.

I have several female friends I wouldn't have sex with. I also have several that I would pound like a wrecking ball. Neither of those is a predictor for how close of friends they are, nor does it mean I want to have relationships with any of them. It simply means that some of them are physically attractive women and some of them are not.

AverageAmericanGuy: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

Of course you realize that the person who put you in the 'friend zone' was yourself. You were the one who thought that you could ever be more than friends and pushed the point.

Yes, how dare any lowly man-dog have any self-worth, or feelings, or feel entitled to even a chance of affection or interest in any way, unless it has been gifted to him by an angelic, wise and faultless female!

Lol....keep on trollin, man...it's funny to see someone even more pathetic than the friendzone chorus.

wedun: CygnusDarius: AverageAmericanGuy: What a dickish thing to do. You're willing to throw away a friendship because of your own selfishness?

It hurts, it reaaaaally hurts, did this only twice, but burning bridges -while sad and horrifying as it is- is the only way out. The last friendzone festered the friendship.

what? Hello no. Your an adult, not a petulant child. You don't throw a tantrum because you didn't get what you wanted.

You're right, that's for women to do.

AverageAmericanGuy: Occam's Disposable Razor: Seth'n'Spectrum: Some people never learn to flirt/make their intentions clear. They only know how to treat women like friends.

Or so I hear. Real tragedy, supposedly.

This. Women are fantastic. I like to think they feel the same way about us. But my guy friends want to shoot guns, build shiat, play video games and be goodhearted assholes to each other all while drinking. They also used to like to chase women, but nearly all are married now. Most (note: I'm sure there are ladies out there who break the mold) of the women I've known are not into these same activities. We can work together, even enjoy each other's company, but I'd hesitate to call any of them my friends. Does that make me a misogynist?

Separate but equal, right? Gimme a farking break.

I used to think Fark was a place where rational people came to joke around, but apparently it's been overrun by misogynists and assholes.

So....a few guys who have relationship trouble, or are shy, or don't feel attractive, or who have been treated not very well by women, or who don't put women on a pedestal, or who admit that women and men are sometimes just a bit different, are misogynists and assholes?

Wow. Here's your quivering, slimy mangina of the year award. Go spread your vile hate trolling somewhere else, loserbiatch.

from my blood: thesloppy: Exactly how much action am I going to get if I leave my copy of "A Natural History of Rape" out on the table?

Put 20 locks on the front door. Lock some, leave others open.
Put bars on the windows.
Hide anything that could be used as a weapon.

Watch her freak out trying to get out.
Trying to figure out which way to turn the locks.
"Awww, Did you want me to unlock the door for you?"

Then you find out she has a black belt.
And she has a penis.

Feminist love poems are weird.

Roses are red,
violets are blue,
So I blame it on YOU, YOU FILTHY RAPIST!

AverageAmericanGuy: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 626x417]

Ok, now that was funny.

kbotc: Also why do some people feel challenged when it turns out other people disagree with their ideas on how people "should" behave?

Well I'm not accusing Telos of this, but I've noticed in the past that people I know IRL who strongly claim that humans aren't monogamous generally want an excuse for their behavior - "It's OK that I repeatedly cuckolded my loving wife, anyone would have done the same in my position because we're not monogamous by nature".

EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

First, you stalk him.

Then you figure out his weaknesses and exploit them.

Then, you let him think he's "found you"

Let him chase you until you've caught him.

Play the "Earl Gray" and "Chamomile" game with him. You know. Be a Hot Teas.

Then, when he's just about had it up to #459 of you Amazon gift list, disappear and post a wedding announcement online.

Or, did you want to do the horizontal bop?

zarberg: If we're going along that line of thinking, cannibalism is sometimes an effective means of combating starvation.

There are some Peruvian soccer players who might agree. I don't think I could do cannibalism. My moral compass wouldn't let me eat someone unless I'd already finished off the ketchup, and the fast-foodie in me would never eat anyone without ketchup.

vudukungfu: EsteeFlwrPot: /sidenote, i do want to look into farkers for dating purposes.
//how would i do that?

First, you stalk him.

Then you figure out his weaknesses and exploit them.

Then, you let him think he's "found you"

Let him chase you until you've caught him.

Play the "Earl Gray" and "Chamomile" game with him. You know. Be a Hot Teas.

Then, when he's just about had it up to #459 of you Amazon gift list, disappear and post a wedding announcement online.

Or, did you want to do the horizontal bop?

Omg thats the most disgusting sociopathic thing i've ever heard.

/taking notes

Gunther: kbotc: Also why do some people feel challenged when it turns out other people disagree with their ideas on how people "should" behave?

Well I'm not accusing Telos of this, but I've noticed in the past that people I know IRL who strongly claim that humans aren't monogamous generally want an excuse for their behavior - "It's OK that I repeatedly cuckolded my loving wife, anyone would have done the same in my position because we're not monogamous by nature".

No, not being a naturally monogamous species is NOT justification for breaking the promises you make to your spouse. There is no excuse for dishonesty.

There is, however, the option of honestly discussing things with your partner and mutually deciding to have an open relationship. Not as easy as it sounds, but it's the only justifiable path.

EsteeFlwrPot: /taking notes

I'm available.
And by "available" I mean in shape, single, not even remotely horny, and not looking. I detest long walks. The beach is for tourists. Moonlight is for the wild things. I hate travel. I like really bad beer. And I beef in the shower and heel it down the drain.
Tons of cats. too.

vudukungfu: EsteeFlwrPot: /taking notes

I'm available.
And by "available" I mean in shape, single, not even remotely horny, and not looking. I detest long walks. The beach is for tourists. Moonlight is for the wild things. I hate travel. I like really bad beer. And I beef in the shower and heel it down the drain.
Tons of cats. too.

I don't like long walks either. Only like the beach at night, LOVE moonlight, love travel, hate bad beer, beef in toilets. Only 1 cat.

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