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(Investors Business Daily)   How come there's no pressure on Dems to cough up spending cuts in the "fiscal cliff" talks?   (news.investors.com) divider line 427
    More: Strange, no pressure, D-Ill, Boehner, George Stephanopoulos, Party leaders of the United States Senate, Nancy Pelosi  
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1880 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Nov 2012 at 10:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-27 10:51:53 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: because for the dems, improving the budget overages by 10% via taxes is a bigger class warfare win than dealing with the other 90% of the budget overages


Say, did you ever get around to issuing an apology for all that confident boasting you were doing about an impending Romney victory?

So, tell us again why we should take you seriously?
 
2012-11-27 10:52:20 AM

Headso: SunsetLament: the country voted for Republican control of the House of Representatives.

With a little help from Mr. Gerry Mander


Technically we voted for that too, by voting for Republican State legislators in 2010.

It might be worth highlighting as a national issue for the 2020 elections, like people highlight the President's effect on the Supreme Court.
 
2012-11-27 10:52:22 AM

max_pooper: Well technically, it's 98% the fault of Republicans but with commonly excepted rounding procedures I'm willing to let your number stand.


point of order: had the house republicans simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they had dozens of times before - the negotiations that resulted in the sequester would never have been necessary. instead, they felt, as mitch mcconnell said, that it was "a hostage worth taking."

so once again, i posit that this is in fact 100 percent owned by the GOP.
 
2012-11-27 10:52:52 AM

Headso: SunsetLament: the country voted for Republican control of the House of Representatives.

With a little help from Mr. Gerry Mander
[assets.motherjones.com image 630x566]


Oh, that sucks. Maybe you should control state legislatures next time re-districting comes around.
 
2012-11-27 10:53:44 AM

SunsetLament: As a side note, does anyone remember 18 months ago when the original "fiscal cliff" debates started. Wasn't it an argument about something completely different? As I remember it, we were going to go off the fiscal cliff if we didn't raise the debt limit and our national credit rating was subsequently downgraded. "Going over the fiscal cliff" had nothing to do with the Bush tax cuts not being extended. If I didn't know better, I would start to believe the media (and the Democrats) were just declaring we were "about to go over the fiscal cliff" anytime they wanted to do something financially related - and that it doesn't really have anything to do with the country's finances teetering on the edge of cliff. Hmmm .....

Oh, and while we're at it, why is it that no one ever says "Hey media (and Democrats), you said the country's finances would go over a cliff 18 months ago if the credit rating was downgraded ... it was downgraded ... and life went on as though nothing changed. If you were so wrong then, how do we know you're not completely wrong now?"


8/10. You're going to get a lot of bites since you actually sincere.
 
2012-11-27 10:54:02 AM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: tenpoundsofcheese: because for the dems, improving the budget overages by 10% via taxes is a bigger class warfare win than dealing with the other 90% of the budget overages

Say, did you ever get around to issuing an apology for all that confident boasting you were doing about an impending Romney victory?

So, tell us again why we should take you seriously?


Because he knew Obamacare would be deemed unconstitutional.
 
2012-11-27 10:55:17 AM
*sound sincere
 
2012-11-27 10:55:32 AM

exick: Isn't the entire problem with the fiscal cliff the fact that it's a giant spending cut? What am I missing?


Also tax hikes.

So basically going over the "fiscal cliff" would give both sides what they want.
 
2012-11-27 10:55:48 AM

SunsetLament: As a side note, does anyone remember 18 months ago when the original "fiscal cliff" debates started. Wasn't it an argument about something completely different? As I remember it, we were going to go off the fiscal cliff if we didn't raise the debt limit and our national credit rating was subsequently downgraded. "Going over the fiscal cliff" had nothing to do with the Bush tax cuts not being extended. If I didn't know better, I would start to believe the media (and the Democrats) were just declaring we were "about to go over the fiscal cliff" anytime they wanted to do something financially related - and that it doesn't really have anything to do with the country's finances teetering on the edge of cliff. Hmmm .....

Oh, and while we're at it, why is it that no one ever says "Hey media (and Democrats), you said the country's finances would go over a cliff 18 months ago if the credit rating was downgraded ... it was downgraded ... and life went on as though nothing changed. If you were so wrong then, how do we know you're not completely wrong now?"


18 months ago the republicans caved and we raised the debt limit.  And just to correct your chronology the downgrade in our rating happened before the republicans caved and was directly tied to fears that they would not allow the debt limit to be raised.
 
This situation is related to the bipartisan comission that was intended to come to a deficit deal as a response to the debt limit crisis.  Both parties agreed to a series of consequences should that comission not be able to come to an agreement.  They weren't able to (republicans regected everything that hinted at a tax increase) and so now we are dealing with those consequences.
 
2012-11-27 10:56:17 AM

SunsetLament: I would start to believe the media


don't bother, just keep getting info from right wing sources. Now that Romney has won in a landslide he'll be able to turn around anything these democrats screw up during Obama's time as a lame duck.
 
2012-11-27 10:56:21 AM

SunsetLament: As I remember it, we were going to go off the fiscal cliff if we didn't raise the debt limit and our national credit rating was subsequently downgraded.


What do you think would have happened if we didn't raise the debt ceiling?
 
2012-11-27 10:56:24 AM
...because plenty of Democrats are willing to work out balanced cuts in social programs and military spending that far exceed the increased revenue from the Bush tax cuts to those making over $250K/yr?

...because the GOP's modus operandi all along has been, when offered pre-emptive cuts, to reset the debate with those offers as the new baseline?

...because only a fool would contend that THE logjam here isn't Republicans refusing to raise taxes on the rich?

They wanted a presidential race on the economy and the debt and which vision of how to resolve our government's fiscal problems would prevail, and they got it. The people spoke. They chose Obama. And that should be his message, again and again, like a hammer to an anvil. We laid out our plan, you laid out yours, and the people chose ours. You either respect that or you don't.
 
2012-11-27 10:57:26 AM
I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that they have been offering up spending cuts all along.
 
2012-11-27 10:58:35 AM

SunsetLament: Oh, and while we're at it, why is it that no one ever says "Hey media (and Democrats), you said the country's finances would go over a cliff 18 months ago if the credit rating was downgraded ... it was downgraded ... and life went on as though nothing changed. If you were so wrong then, how do we know you're not completely wrong now?"


Everyone gets confused about that stuff, including the media and Democrats. The constant flow of bullshiat doesn't help either.

If you were listening to knowledgeable folks back then they'd have been telling you that the danger wasn't credit rating, but actual default. (Which we were annoyingly close to).

It's a danger not to our government finances directly as such, but because the global financial system is built upon the assumption that US T-Bills are safe. Yank that rug out from under it and watch the depression unfold. It'd be a bigger version of what happened in 2008, where only a part of the financial system got built upon the assumption that real estate was a safe investment, and that rug got yanked out.
 
2012-11-27 10:59:08 AM

mrshowrules: Because he knew Obamacare would be deemed unconstitutional.


Anyone who thought that it was a forgone conclusion that the mandate would be overturned severely underestimates the Supreme Court's ability to twist the constitution and previous case law.
 
2012-11-27 10:59:17 AM

HugsAndPuppies: Marcus Aurelius: The Dems are not the ones steadfastly refusing any sort of compromise. The GOP is the one going all "Thelma and Louise" on us.

I was thinking more "Devil's Rejects".



Oh good grief. That's just begging for an extended photoshop parody.

/Grover loves the gub'mint, stripped and lean,
//Drownin' in a bathtub of gas-o-line...
 
2012-11-27 11:00:01 AM

SunsetLament: Oh, that sucks. Maybe you should control state legislatures next time re-districting comes around.


Maybe it's not about control, but about common sense. Gerrymandering sucks no matter who it benefits.
 
2012-11-27 11:00:28 AM

jigger: mrshowrules: Because he knew Obamacare would be deemed unconstitutional.

Anyone who thought that it was a forgone conclusion that the mandate would be overturned severely underestimates the Supreme Court's ability to twist the constitution and previous case law.


In other words it's Judicial Activism when I don't agree with the ruling.
 
2012-11-27 11:01:16 AM

CPT Ethanolic: As anyone who's studied the federal budget knows, the problem isn't too little taxes. Even if we kept all the Bush tax cuts in place, federal revenues as a share of GDP will soon exceed historic averages.

Uhmm... HUH?? Do these historical averages include the time before income taxes or something?


If you average it out from today back to the time that the continents split apart (going back any farther would just be silly because we weren't a separate country then), the average rate starts to approach 0. Therefore, we are being greatly over taxed. It's simple math, really.
 
2012-11-27 11:01:21 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: The fiscal cliff isn't a cliff nor is it irreversible. There's no point to anyone trying to reach a deal before it kicks in.

Just let Jan 1 come and go, tax rates kick up and spending kicks down automatically.

If you really believe the deficit is a problem, you're done, the deficit's pretty much fixed. Otherwise:

THEN work out a deal to cut taxes and increase spending from that baseline.

Since you can get to a place with less deficit than today, without any politician having to support any tax increase or spending cut, politically everything's a lot easier.

Bonus: Republicans then have an incentive to actually make a deal; if they just blindly obstruct so nothing happens, taxes are higher than they like, and defense spending is lower than they like.


Agreed. The only problem I can see is a lot of folks won't be getting their tax refunds until the mess is sorted out. Plus, the IRS is going to be wasting a whole lot of manpower and printing costs.
 
2012-11-27 11:02:20 AM
This message brought to you by: the "liberal" media that needs something besides Christmas to talk about until the end of the year. Because we've managed to let Christmas take over so much of the year that there's a month to go and nothing to be said on the subject.
 
2012-11-27 11:02:33 AM
irregulartimes.com

Pick the group that has gained the most, and start there.
If you need more, let us know, mmmay?
 
2012-11-27 11:03:15 AM

Fart_Machine: SunsetLament: As I remember it, we were going to go off the fiscal cliff if we didn't raise the debt limit and our national credit rating was subsequently downgraded.

What do you think would have happened if we didn't raise the debt ceiling?


We would have stopped borrowing money. Spending would have decreased. As "discretionary" government programs started to wash out (no money available), real discussions about how to renovate entitlement programs would have taken place and corrective action would have occurred (maybe not immediately, but over the course of a year or two). As we all know (because the credit agencies said at the time), the credit rating would have been downgraded either way because it had nothing to do with whether or not the debt ceiling was actually raised and had everything to do with the financial community believing that federal congressional gridlock (as desired by the US population - see two weeks ago) will never result in entitlement reform.
 
2012-11-27 11:04:17 AM
Because you're a farking moron, whoever wrote this article.
 
2012-11-27 11:04:17 AM
What was it that Republicans said in 2010? Oh yeah . . . Elections have consequences.
 
2012-11-27 11:04:24 AM

swahnhennessy: SunsetLament: Oh, that sucks. Maybe you should control state legislatures next time re-districting comes around.

Maybe it's not about control, but about common sense. Gerrymandering sucks no matter who it benefits.


Including when the courts order your state to gerrymander so that blacks are elected to congress? Or is that "good gerrymandering"?
 
2012-11-27 11:05:03 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: The fiscal cliff isn't a cliff nor is it irreversible. There's no point to anyone trying to reach a deal before it kicks in.

Just let Jan 1 come and go, tax rates kick up and spending kicks down automatically.

If you really believe the deficit is a problem, you're done, the deficit's pretty much fixed. Otherwise:


Pretty much. If you truly believe our national debt is our #1 threat, there's a pretty easy way to cut it in half.

dailydish.typepad.com
 
2012-11-27 11:05:11 AM

SunsetLament: EyeballKid: SCOREBOARD: 303 to 206. That's how come, biatch.

If only they had similar results in the House of Representatives, they could do whatever they wanted. Sadly, the country voted for Republican control of the House of Representatives.

/Not really going to matter
//House Republicans will cave and cave quickly


Technically speaking the state legislatures voted for the House of Representatives using our hilariously undemocratic gerrymandering system.
 
2012-11-27 11:06:12 AM

SunsetLament: derp


tldr

Can you post a cartoon?
 
2012-11-27 11:06:53 AM

Taylor Mental: Gaseous Anomaly: The fiscal cliff isn't a cliff nor is it irreversible. There's no point to anyone trying to reach a deal before it kicks in.

Just let Jan 1 come and go, tax rates kick up and spending kicks down automatically.

If you really believe the deficit is a problem, you're done, the deficit's pretty much fixed. Otherwise:

THEN work out a deal to cut taxes and increase spending from that baseline.

Since you can get to a place with less deficit than today, without any politician having to support any tax increase or spending cut, politically everything's a lot easier.

Bonus: Republicans then have an incentive to actually make a deal; if they just blindly obstruct so nothing happens, taxes are higher than they like, and defense spending is lower than they like.

Agreed. The only problem I can see is a lot of folks won't be getting their tax refunds until the mess is sorted out. Plus, the IRS is going to be wasting a whole lot of manpower and printing costs.


No, that's not even a problem, the IRS is dealing with tax year 2012.

Even if somehow the higher tax rates lasted through all of 2013, nobody files returns on that until Feb 2014 (I guess quarterly-estimated-tax filers might need to get paperwork in starting April 2013).

Paychecks will get affected right away because withholding rates will change right away (and the payroll tax cut expires). That plus the spending cuts will be an immediate drag on the economy, but that's what we get if we think it's a lesser evil than the deficit. (It's not, but that's another discussion).
 
2012-11-27 11:09:21 AM

SunsetLament: "about to go over the fiscal cliff"


It is a misnomer. They should call it the "fiscal Incline" but that doesn't sound scary.
 
2012-11-27 11:09:27 AM

SunsetLament: As we all know (because the credit agencies said at the time), the credit rating would have been downgraded either way because it had nothing to do with whether or not the debt ceiling was actually raised and had everything to do with the financial community believing that federal congressional gridlock (as desired by the US population - see two weeks ago) will never result in entitlement reform.


[citationneeded]
 
2012-11-27 11:14:01 AM

SunsetLament: Headso: SunsetLament: the country voted for Republican control of the House of Representatives.

With a little help from Mr. Gerry Mander
[assets.motherjones.com image 630x566]

Oh, that sucks. Maybe you should control state legislatures next time re-districting comes around.


Blatantly antidemocratic gerrymandering is OK if it benefits your side? Fascinating point of view.
 
2012-11-27 11:14:57 AM
www.caglecartoons.com
 
2012-11-27 11:15:46 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: No, that's not even a problem, the IRS is dealing with tax year 2012.

Even if somehow the higher tax rates lasted through all of 2013, nobody files returns on that until Feb 2014 (I guess quarterly-estimated-tax filers might need to get paperwork in starting April 2013).

Paychecks will get affected right away because withholding rates will change right away (and the payroll tax cut expires). That plus the spending cuts will be an immediate drag on the economy, but that's what we get if we think it's a lesser evil than the deficit. (It's not, but that's another discussion).


Ah yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Don't know where I got that shiat from. Been listening to too much derp apparently.
 
2012-11-27 11:16:10 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: because for the dems, improving the budget overages by 10% via taxes is a bigger class warfare win than dealing with the other 90% of the budget overages


That would make sense, except democrats already have accepted huge spending cuts. So in other words, you didn't make any sense and neither does this article.

"Why isn't anybody pressuring Democrats to do something they have already done and are doing again???!!?! WHYYYYY?!?!"
 
2012-11-27 11:16:51 AM
Remember folks, it's when ridiculously wealthy people might feel a pinch, it's "OMGZ teh fiscal cliff!!111"

And when we cut spending that benefit poor and working poor by $1.5 trillion (as we already have) it's merely "kicking a can down the road".


Semantics and word games are fun. Especially when it's used to imply that one outcome must be avoided at all cost, and one outcome not only needs to be revisited in the future but revisited in a Draconian manner.

/teh class wuhrfare
 
2012-11-27 11:16:54 AM
I read the first sentence of that article:

"Republicans are being hounded mercilessly to abandon their no-tax pledge to get a deal on the fiscal cliff."

And immediately closed the tab before the derp overwhelmed me. Reporters asking them why they aren't willing to compromise at all when a) the democrats are and b) they just got their ass whipped in an election is "hounding mercilessly", now?
 
2012-11-27 11:17:05 AM

James!: When you lose you're expected to make concessions.  Republicans lost.


Well, yeah, sure...a rational political party would think that.
 
2012-11-27 11:17:40 AM

InmanRoshi: Pretty much. If you truly believe our national debt is our #1 threat, there's a pretty easy way to cut it in half


If you go by what Obama wants that only gets cut by a 1/6th.

I personally vote we go off the cliff. It gives me everything I want.
 
2012-11-27 11:18:13 AM
Because they've been offering spending cuts since the beginning, you stupid motherfarkers.
 
2012-11-27 11:19:11 AM

Lando Lincoln: James!: When you lose you're expected to make concessions.  Republicans lost.

Well, yeah, sure...a rational political party would think that.


But did they really lose? The Democrats won the White House, sure, but they didn't win every open seat in Congress. And if the Democrats didn't win, who did? The Republicans. QED
 
2012-11-27 11:20:24 AM

Lando Lincoln: James!: When you lose you're expected to make concessions.  Republicans lost.

Well, yeah, sure...a rational political party would think that.


I'm really fond of the "We didn't lose enough seats in the house to have to turn over leadership so America wants US!" argument.  
 
2012-11-27 11:21:09 AM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-11-27 11:22:53 AM

SunsetLament:

Oh, and while we're at it, why is it that no one ever says "Hey media (and Democrats), you said the country's finances would go over a cliff 18 months ago if the credit rating was downgraded ... it was downgraded ... and life went on as though nothing changed. If you were so wrong then, how do we know you're not completely wrong now?"


No, the nightmare scenario then was tht the debt ceiling wouldn't be raised - draconian cuts (a whole lot more than 8%), probable default on our debt. You default on t-bills, you suddenly turn the safest investment on the planet to a junk bond. Big. Farking. Deal.

The teatards and the Paulistinians, who view economics with all of the insight of a four year old, were cheering.
 
2012-11-27 11:23:30 AM

culebra: [www.caglecartoons.com image 600x394]


So you're saying the Republicans are a bunch of petulant nine year old kids.. Makes sense they'd sign a pledge written by a thirteen year old upperclassman.
 
2012-11-27 11:23:48 AM

Saiga410: InmanRoshi: Pretty much. If you truly believe our national debt is our #1 threat, there's a pretty easy way to cut it in half

If you go by what Obama wants that only gets cut by a 1/6th.

I personally vote we go off the cliff. It gives me everything I want.


Lets reward your failed party by...giving everything you want?

Only Republicans...
 
2012-11-27 11:24:04 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: The Jami Turman Fan Club: I thought Obama offered 4 trillion in spending cuts?

$4 trillion in savings (cuts + revenue). And Obama's already enacted $1.5 trillion in cuts but gotten not one dollar in revenues. 

Spending cuts are actively detrimental to this economy. That we're actually debating how much bigger a cut to make is genuinely insane.


But the $4 trillion figure includes the $1.5 trillion already enacted, so its misleading: its really $2.5 trillion.

A trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon we're talking real money
 
2012-11-27 11:25:39 AM

Taylor Mental: Gaseous Anomaly: The fiscal cliff isn't a cliff nor is it irreversible. There's no point to anyone trying to reach a deal before it kicks in.

Just let Jan 1 come and go, tax rates kick up and spending kicks down automatically.

If you really believe the deficit is a problem, you're done, the deficit's pretty much fixed. Otherwise:

THEN work out a deal to cut taxes and increase spending from that baseline.

Since you can get to a place with less deficit than today, without any politician having to support any tax increase or spending cut, politically everything's a lot easier.

Bonus: Republicans then have an incentive to actually make a deal; if they just blindly obstruct so nothing happens, taxes are higher than they like, and defense spending is lower than they like.

Agreed. The only problem I can see is a lot of folks won't be getting their tax refunds until the mess is sorted out. Plus, the IRS is going to be wasting a whole lot of manpower and printing costs.


Well, this and the idea that with 10% across the board spending cuts combines with big defense cuts, lots of jobs will be lost immediately as businesses react to loss of projects. Even if those projects are later re-instated and the people rehired, still sucks being laid off and having so many thrown into uncertainty for their futures.
 
2012-11-27 11:28:10 AM

Rain-Monkey: Because they have said all along they would be willing to cut spending programs as a part of a balanced package?

 
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