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(South Jersey Courier-Post)   Red light cameras have brought New Jersey a 20% increase in rear-end collisions and an additional $1 million in property damage per intersection   (courierpostonline.com) divider line 170
    More: Asinine, New Jersey, red light cameras, seat, prices, South Jersey, Gloucester Township  
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7175 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2012 at 1:14 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-27 10:00:48 AM
The next question is, are the new statistics accurate or trimmed to make the cameras look better? Among the techniques used previously: only report accidents with both cars over the stop bar (eliminating approach accidents), only report accidents coded as "red light running," lie, apply inapplicable corrections (like taking a list of injury accidents and throwing out rear-enders because they don't usually cause injury).
 
2012-11-27 10:47:47 AM
But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.
 
2012-11-27 10:48:15 AM
Only problem is the rear ends and the property damage is all private while the revenue generated is all going to the guberment. There is no incentive for the guberment to change.


guberment
 
2012-11-27 10:48:51 AM

Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


I just had to get wordy....
 
2012-11-27 10:52:43 AM
But hey, the cameras make the roads SAFER.
 
2012-11-27 10:53:40 AM
FTFA:
"And O'Scanlon argued the program has changed drivers' behavior in a negative way.

"What we are doing is making people paranoid - causing them to slam on the brakes at the slightest hint a light might change, or deciding to fail to make even an absolutely safe right turn on red," he said."


Paging Mr. Romero...
 
2012-11-27 10:55:38 AM
No, the real question is how many countless lives have actually been saved by this. Consider this scenario:

Bobby Ericson, 9, is playing in his yard. He kicks the softball and runs out into the street to retrieve it. What he doesn't know is that Douglas Macavoy, 34, is speeding up the residential street, which has a 25-mile-per-hour limit, at 43 miles per hour. Mr. Macavoy is going that fast because he just finished running the red light at the previous intersection, which had started turning yellow even as he approached it. However, seeing no camera on the pole, he floored the accelerator and ran the light. Now, as he rounds the Pete's Plumbing van parked on the curve, he's shocked to find little sandy-haired Bobby crouching in the street right in front of him. And, splat, just like that, two lives are irreparably destroyed -- Bobby is paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life. Mr. Macavoy is in jail. His wife leaves him after a few months after starting an affair with his probation officer. She takes his children. Despondent, alone, he attempts to take his own life by jumping out a window in a ramshackle motel, but he lands on a pedestrian and breaks her neck. Now he's in jail again, only for murder this time. And all he can think on those long nights as he's gripped in Bubba's sweaty embrace is: If only I had stopped for that light. If only there had been a camera, I would have stopped for that life.

Would you seriously, subby, weigh a little bit of property damage, a bent fender, against these two shattered lives. What's one million dollars when compared to infinite suffering and shattered lives? Next time, remember Mr. Macavoy's sad tale before you post.
 
2012-11-27 11:29:44 AM
Replace them all with roundabouts!

//runs
 
2012-11-27 11:47:40 AM

tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

//runs


I love roundabouts.

That is all.
 
2012-11-27 12:02:32 PM

Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


Yup. Around here (AZ) I watch idiots tap their brakes on green lights "just in case" it's about to turn yellow. I had to do an emergency stop from 50mph because the yellow at a particular intersection isn't long enough (no surprise there either).
 
2012-11-27 12:25:53 PM

Pocket Ninja: Would you seriously, subby, weigh a little bit of property damage, a bent fender, against these two shattered lives. What's one million dollars when compared to infinite suffering and shattered lives? Next time, remember Mr. Macavoy's sad tale before you post.


PN delivers.
 
2012-11-27 12:34:10 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

//runs


Works for me. There are several still in use near here (Along NY6 and the Palisades Pkwy) I remember the ones in Wayne on Route 23 too. They worked amazingly well considering that they were full of NJ drivers.

They'd work even better if driver education and training in the USA wasn't such a farking joke.
 
2012-11-27 01:17:56 PM
Revenue boost *and* localized economic stimulus? Brilliant!
 
2012-11-27 01:18:22 PM
Increase in rear collision because people are driving to fast, but how many seriously accidents have been reduced? (T-bones, etc)

No no that would hint at the red light cameras working, and we can't have that here on Fark.
 
2012-11-27 01:19:19 PM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

//runs

Works for me. There are several still in use near here (Along NY6 and the Palisades Pkwy) I remember the ones in Wayne on Route 23 too. They worked amazingly well considering that they were full of NJ drivers.

They'd work even better if driver education and training in the USA wasn't such a farking joke.


Whatter y'all talk'in about?? We has NASCAR!!!
 
2012-11-27 01:21:10 PM
PocketNinja improves my day.

And is it bad that I took his tale as a reason why we should allow more speeding to teach kids to stay out of the street?

I think all the time on the politics tab is blackening my heart.
 
2012-11-27 01:21:11 PM
So.... people shouldn't follow too closely?

Problem solved.

(You shouldn't run red lights... it's dangerous)
 
2012-11-27 01:21:37 PM

Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


Follow the money, it leads you to the answer almost every time.
 
2012-11-27 01:21:37 PM

Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


Except rear-end collisions (which tend to be low speed) are up massively and total collisions (including T-bone crashes, the ones that tend to be high speed) are down so there is only a very slight climb in total collisions. Fewer bad crashes, slightly more less minor collisions.

I'll bet you any money the number of people hospitalised has fallen.
 
2012-11-27 01:21:46 PM

Slaxl: tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

//runs

I love roundabouts.

That is all.


Me too! Feeling the roundabouts love in this thread
 
2012-11-27 01:22:22 PM
Putting aside the issue of whether or not cameras are good, people who slam on their brakes and cause a collision because of red light cameras ARE FARKING IDIOTS.

Do you really think risking the destruction of your car and your health is worth it to avoid a petty ticket? Grow a brain, morans.
 
2012-11-27 01:22:57 PM

ZAZ: like taking a list of injury accidents and throwing out rear-enders because they don't usually cause injury


Sorry, but if your concern is the safety of human beings, then it is not inapplicable to remove accidents that don't cause injury.
 
2012-11-27 01:25:22 PM
Sadly, red light cameras are a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Sure, we can all agree that running red lights is bad, but it's nowhere near an epidemic and a vast, vast majority of drivers stop for red lights. When it happens, something awful may result, but it's also like saying that sometimes airplanes crash, so we should outlaw airplanes. Statistically, red-light running is a non-event.

However, it is BIG money and a cause the public will blindly get behind. Never mind that it changes the dynamics of accidents around the light and that they are specifically designed to cause MORE people to run red lights (and thus drive up revenue).

It's a money grab, pure and simple. There are no statistics in favor of red light cameras except those the companies supply to municipalities telling them about the money they can collect from them.
 
2012-11-27 01:26:03 PM

Drakin020: Increase in rear collision because people are driving to fast, but how many seriously accidents have been reduced? (T-bones, etc)

No no that would hint at the red light cameras working, and we can't have that here on Fark.


None. Literally none. We're only considering drivers who are coherent enough to realize there's a camera, right? It doesn't deter people from running it after 2 seconds after the light turns red, as the cameras stop taking pictures around that time. Those who run the light under 2 seconds after it turns red don't t-bone cars, as they haven't had enough time to get that far into it. Satisfied? No reasonable person proposes that red light cameras have literally any effect on t-bone accidents.
 
2012-11-27 01:29:04 PM
Anyone who is surprised, raise your hand... so I can slap you.

I have personally witnessed this phenomena since the red light cameras have been installed in my area. Hell, I feel a quick twinge of anxiety every time a light goes yellow just before I cross the line, and I have above average driving and riding capabilities thanks to race experience. I can comprehend, from a psychological point of view, why average joe or jane stomps the brakes and skids to a stop - because they aren't good at what they're doing and can't judge whether they'll cross that line before the light goes red. Then the person who is following too close behind or having a lapse of concentration slams into them, causing thousands in injuries and property damage over the scare provided by a $150 ticket.

The fundamental flaw with the logic behind red light cameras is that they generate revenue when the drivers are unsafe and generate none when the drivers do what they should; this is a similar logical error to the for-profit (privatised) prisons, which make more money when more criminals exist.

The correct way to make the roads safer is through stricter licensing requirements and more driver training, NOT punishing silly mistakes like crossing the line .10 seconds too late. The dangerous red light runners are the ones who blow it after the light has gone red and t-bone the cars that are already moving in the other lanes, not the ones that get the majority of the tickets; the guys who cross the line long before the other lights go green.
 
2012-11-27 01:29:54 PM

Jument: Putting aside the issue of whether or not cameras are good, people who slam on their brakes and cause a collision because of red light cameras ARE FARKING IDIOTS.

Do you really think risking the destruction of your car and your health is worth it to avoid a petty ticket? Grow a brain, morans.


It should not even be a problem. If you travel at the legally allotted sleep limit and pay attention you should never be put in a position to have to choose from slamming on the breaks and having the person behind you ram into you or run a red light.

You can also easily avoid a rear-end collision in which you are the potential rear-ended by following at a safe distance and paying attention. If the person in front of you slams on the breaks at a yellow light because they weren't paying attention, it shouldn't be a problem for you since you should already started to apply the breaks to make a safe stop at the up coming red.
 
2012-11-27 01:31:50 PM
Sure doesn't say much for the over all level of driving skills in New jersey. If your to close for the car in front of you to stop at a red light then you my friend are driving like an idiot.

Of course we cant be honest about these things, like blaming the morons who run the lights in the first place. With out them we would not need the cameras. And any one who rear ends a car stopping for a light should not be driving in the first place.
 
2012-11-27 01:31:53 PM
If the yellow light times are set to proper standards the lights don't make enough money to pay for themselves and have to be scrapped.
 
2012-11-27 01:33:08 PM
Curious, what's the insurance companies' take on this?
More expenses?
Or more reason to raise premiums?
 
2012-11-27 01:33:56 PM
Rear ends typically aren't fatal. 90 degree crashes (the kind that result from red light running) typically are.
 
2012-11-27 01:34:42 PM
Perhaps you shouldn't speed and tailgate people. Typically, if one follows traffic laws, the risk of an accident is minimal.
 
2012-11-27 01:35:40 PM

Gig103: Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.

Yup. Around here (AZ) I watch idiots tap their brakes on green lights "just in case" it's about to turn yellow. I had to do an emergency stop from 50mph because the yellow at a particular intersection isn't long enough (no surprise there either).


There is a major road that I have to take. It leads to my development. The speed limit on that road is 45 mph. Since they put a speed camera there, everyone slows down to well below 40 mph when they hit that stretch of road. Of course, it's also right after you come down a hill. I'm sure they got lots of tickets generated when the cameras first went up, but we have them all over town now, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone get flashed by one.

We vote on every other thing in this silly state. I don't understand why we can't get a referendum on the ballot to get rid of the cameras.
 
2012-11-27 01:36:18 PM
here in florida i looked at one of the kids books for driving
and in it it had the sentence...
that you should slow down at EVERY intersection
in case someone runs the stop sign
AAAAAAAAAAAH HOW WOULD YOU GET ANYWHERE
it is not a law but a suggestion for drivers but still???
 
2012-11-27 01:36:37 PM
Around here they have been modifying pedestrian walk lights with a digital countdown timer which makes it very easy to see when the light is about to change and make a judgement call on whether you should begin stopping or make a run for it. Very handy and avoids the anxiety of knowing there's a red light camera and only seeing a flashing no walk light which could be anywhere from 1-10 secs before the light changes.
 
2012-11-27 01:37:02 PM
Yeah, but at least a faceless corporation made a killing off a government contract.
 
2012-11-27 01:37:48 PM
So, the roads are safer!
img839.imageshack.us
Strategery.
 
2012-11-27 01:38:13 PM
You know, the worst part about it isn't that people stop 'safely.' The idea of yellow lights is to say, "The light is going to turn red in a few seconds. Stop if you can, keep going if you can't." People are usually pretty damn good at being able to figure it out. The problem is now when a lot of people see yellow lights, they lock their brakes up. We're talking smoking tires and completely losing control of their car. Problem is if the person behind them takes an average time to respond and doesn't ALSO lock up their brakes, they're going to hit the person in the ass. It's already a problem before you factor in people doing their make up in the car, reading the internet, watching movies, texting friends, impaired drivers, etc. I've personally witnessed countless numbers of people lock their brakes up the instant the light turns yellow, likely afraid that the light is only going to last about half a second before turning red (which happens a lot in some areas..yellow light times were shortened significantly in order to increase violations).

So you get people slowing down to anticipate the green to yellow change, which slows down traffic flow, increases chances of an accident (increased number of red light interactions, also slowing down decreases separation distance between cars), etc, etc.

I would be alright with the use of red light cameras if they didn't tread so much on common sense. Any time there's a zero tolerance policy in effect, there's probably plenty of derp around. Red light cameras are an example of a zero tolerance policy. I've gotten ticketed for going right on red before (after stopping...apparently I didn't stop for long enough), for moving out of the way of an ambulance (they refused to undo the ticket, so I had to pay), and for going 1mm over the line after I had been stopped for a good two minutes. Not once have I gotten one for actually running a red light.
 
2012-11-27 01:38:16 PM
It's not a rear-end collision, it's "Getting McGreevey'd"

Sheesh subby, it's like you aren't even from the Garden State...

:-P
 
2012-11-27 01:38:24 PM

max_pooper: If you travel at the legally allotted sleep limit and pay attention you should never be put in a position to have to choose from slamming on the breaks and having the person behind you ram into you or run a red light.


Sleep limit?... I have a hard time paying attention when I'm sleeping.
 
2012-11-27 01:39:17 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Rear ends typically aren't fatal. 90 degree crashes (the kind that result from red light running) typically are.


"Typically are"? Really?

The English language gives up.
 
2012-11-27 01:40:53 PM

Contribution Corsair: PocketNinja improves my day.

And is it bad that I took his tale as a reason why we should allow more speeding to teach kids to stay out of the street?

I think all the time on the politics tab is blackening my heart.


That's why I avoid the politics tab altogether.
 
2012-11-27 01:41:01 PM

DubyaHater: Perhaps you shouldn't speed and tailgate people. Typically, if one follows traffic laws, the risk of an accident is minimal.


The yellow light duration is reduced and people are either terrified of running the red or anxious to make the light on green and yellow. The combination is not good. They're also inexplicably slow in moving forward on the green, but that's normal.
 
2012-11-27 01:42:02 PM

Pocket Ninja: No, the real question is how many countless lives have actually been saved by this. Consider this scenario:

Bobby Ericson, 9, is playing in his yard. He kicks the softball and runs out into the street to retrieve it. What he doesn't know is that Douglas Macavoy, 34, is speeding up the residential street, which has a 25-mile-per-hour limit, at 43 miles per hour. Mr. Macavoy is going that fast because he just finished running the red light at the previous intersection, which had started turning yellow even as he approached it. However, seeing no camera on the pole, he floored the accelerator and ran the light. Now, as he rounds the Pete's Plumbing van parked on the curve, he's shocked to find little sandy-haired Bobby crouching in the street right in front of him. And, splat, just like that, two lives are irreparably destroyed -- Bobby is paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life. Mr. Macavoy is in jail. His wife leaves him after a few months after starting an affair with his probation officer. She takes his children. Despondent, alone, he attempts to take his own life by jumping out a window in a ramshackle motel, but he lands on a pedestrian and breaks her neck. Now he's in jail again, only for murder this time. And all he can think on those long nights as he's gripped in Bubba's sweaty embrace is: If only I had stopped for that light. If only there had been a camera, I would have stopped for that life.

Would you seriously, subby, weigh a little bit of property damage, a bent fender, against these two shattered lives. What's one million dollars when compared to infinite suffering and shattered lives? Next time, remember Mr. Macavoy's sad tale before you post.


Don't be THAT cable guy!
 
2012-11-27 01:43:59 PM

ringersol: Revenue boost *and* localized economic stimulus? Brilliant!


I know (or at least hope) you're being sarcastic. The "economic stimulus" you are referring to is more properly known as Broken Window Fallacy.
 
2012-11-27 01:44:35 PM

Jument: Putting aside the issue of whether or not cameras are good, people who slam on their brakes and cause a collision because of red light cameras ARE FARKING IDIOTS.

Do you really think risking the destruction of your car and your health is worth it to avoid a petty ticket? Grow a brain, morans.


You think allowing people to think that is worth the few thousand bucks the city will see once it's done paying off ATS? Also those tickets are farking expensive.
 
2012-11-27 01:44:48 PM
While I am tempted to say that I can't believe there are people in here defending red light cameras, sadly, I can believe it.

/Surrender to your betters, the government overlords.
 
2012-11-27 01:47:29 PM

moothemagiccow: DubyaHater: Perhaps you shouldn't speed and tailgate people. Typically, if one follows traffic laws, the risk of an accident is minimal.

The yellow light duration is reduced and people are either terrified of running the red or anxious to make the light on green and yellow. The combination is not good. They're also inexplicably slow in moving forward on the green, but that's normal.


I don't think you understood what he was saying so I'll repeat it: "you shouldn't speed and tailgate people. Typically, if one follows traffic laws, the risk of an accident is minimal."
 
2012-11-27 01:47:55 PM
Switch from cameras to a slowly raising barrier...

Have it start going up halfway in the yellow, so that if you feel the bump (which is now a speed bump by then) you know that you really pushed your luck.

For those that need to really make it across, then they floor it before it reaches the high point and are able to jump in Dukes of Hazard style, which would make them go over any other traffic anyways.

Once red, the barrier is fully erect and some jolly restraining teeth/spikes come out of it, ensuring that when they start going down again (this occurs in perspective of the other side's barriers starting to raise, that no early birds would start edging over the line as it would mean that their tires would be slashed.

Once the light goes green, the teeth/spikes go down and people can go forth.
 
2012-11-27 01:48:08 PM

Gig103: I had to do an emergency stop from 50mph because the yellow at a particular intersection isn't long enough


Yellow light means S L O W D O W N.
 
2012-11-27 01:50:39 PM
www.villageofworth.com
Another life saved by red light cameras!

Roundabouts: Built by local governments that are more concerned about the wellfare of their constituents than cashing in on their mistakes*

*only applies to roundabouts that aren't screwed up with stop signs in them or traffic lights in them coughThomasCirclecough
 
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