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(The New York Times)   It turns out the American Psychiatric Association can't figure out how to deal with subby's ex-wives either   (nytimes.com) divider line 118
    More: Scary, American Psychiatric Association, Thinking Clearly, narcissistic personality disorder, clinical practice, self-help, Ares, diagnostic, Binghamton  
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12189 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2012 at 11:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-27 09:24:25 PM

KiwDaWabbit: I'm actually pretty embarrassed to type this all out, but at least I'm trying to get some help with them. I've only ever had one meaningful relationship, and I let my disorders get the better of me and I farked it up. In my mid-30's, I'm pretty pissed at myself that I didn't do this in my mid-20's or even sooner


Admitting that you have a problem is already a huge step! And trust me, it will get better. Keep on going to therapy, and remember to enjoy yourself once in a while too. You're doing great.
 
2012-11-27 10:02:28 PM
Ok so asking Farkers for their two cents:

My mom explodes into a screaming for whenever things go wrong. Things like her lipstick didn't look right or the Tupperware wasn't put back right. Top of her lungs screaming. I talked to her about it and she thinks is normal. She told me to get used to it if I ever want a reletionship. She is very focused on looks. Sometimes I feel her personality goes from syrupy sweet to sexual in a month. That's as best I can describe her. I know she is unstable but any ideas? My doc said possibly bi-polar?
 
2012-11-27 10:13:52 PM

finnished: KiwDaWabbit: I'm actually pretty embarrassed to type this all out, but at least I'm trying to get some help with them. I've only ever had one meaningful relationship, and I let my disorders get the better of me and I farked it up. In my mid-30's, I'm pretty pissed at myself that I didn't do this in my mid-20's or even sooner

Admitting that you have a problem is already a huge step! And trust me, it will get better. Keep on going to therapy, and remember to enjoy yourself once in a while too. You're doing great.


Thanks.

4seasons85!: Ok so asking Farkers for their two cents:

My mom explodes into a screaming for whenever things go wrong. Things like her lipstick didn't look right or the Tupperware wasn't put back right. Top of her lungs screaming. I talked to her about it and she thinks is normal. She told me to get used to it if I ever want a reletionship. She is very focused on looks. Sometimes I feel her personality goes from syrupy sweet to sexual in a month. That's as best I can describe her. I know she is unstable but any ideas? My doc said possibly bi-polar?


Is there any way you can get her to do a profile? Maybe it's because it's how I approached my issues, so I think it's the "right way" or something, but I do feel like it's maybe better to go the psychological route and then see a psychiatrist about possible medication. My personal view is the more background, the better, because if a misdiagnosis leads to the wrong pharmaceutical treatment, there's a chance it could be compounded.

/Not an expert, friendly advice, etc.
 
2012-11-27 10:44:24 PM

Bad_Seed: Get a bunch of "symptoms" (i.e. pattens of thought and behaviour) that you decide are "bad" and label them a "disorder". That's how it works. Teh Gay used to be a disorder until the gays got it redefined as a lifestyle choice.


So following this to its logical conclusion, we should support BPD as a disorder so that later on down the line, BPD can become a lifestyle choice? If we're lucky, the proud BPD's and their fellow afflicted will begin to flamboyantly show their BPD, so that we can recognize it in advance and run far, far away and prepare ourselves to embrace diversity.
 
2012-11-27 11:21:56 PM

Bender The Offender: kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

I've always said BPD is psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.


ALL personality disorders are psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.

My friend is something of an armchair expert due to having done a lot of reading (serious books) and being locked up in a secure hospital for a long time with a bunch of them, and he swears that actually all PDs are forms of psychopath.

He really is serious about that, and although I have 2 psych degrees I have to admit that he actually knows more than I do about it.

Basically, it is psychiatry's way of saying you are manipulative. Various forms of attention seeking and destructive behaviour patterns. And so on.

Quick way to get yourself labelled PD (probably borderline) is to make a suicide attempt, so never do that.
 
2012-11-27 11:35:01 PM

elysive: dont think you guys know what BPD is or maybe you just dont know any BPD people. Im pretty sure you cant rely on a BPD person to dilligently take responsibility for their own drama and problems whether they've been given a diagnosis or not.

I think BPD ppl are scary to get into relationships with, but i wouldnt call them all assholes. Some are, but you dont need a mental illness to be an asshole. People with personality disorders are likely just fractured people who quite probably will never find cures for their problems. Be thankful you dont have such a disorder (if you dont).


This... After reading this thread and coming across descriptions of BPD and doing a little research, I'm sure my ex had it. Willing to bet money on it (fits everything symptom to a T). Here's the thing, when we were together up until just a bit before it ended, 90% of the time you couldn't tell. She was happy, everything was great and wonderful... wasn't until it ended I realized how bad everything was (maybe just due to me being an idiot and in love, I'm not ruling that out). But she was very manipulative, extremely good at lying, and could make anyone dance how she wanted them to. After it ended I realized just how emotionally detached she was from everything and everyone, including her own children. The only thing in the end that mattered was her bottom line. none of the drama in her life was her fault, always had a blame ready or an excuse. Anytime I tried to have a real conversation about my problems she would walk out of the room or not answer me... and as soon she didn't like you, she'd do everything in her power to destroy your life.

so would somebody w/ BPD listen to a shrink and try to get counseling? no, I don't think so. They'd laugh at the doc and walk out of the room. They're more likely to think it's everyone else w/ the problem then themselves...
 
2012-11-27 11:46:12 PM

cryinoutloud: finnished: Not necessarily. They can certainly know that they're acting wrong. Remember feelings come from thoughts.
Like when I was suffering from depression, my thoughts kept repeating things that made me feel depressed. I did realize this, but had no idea how to make it stop.
And sometimes a person with a personality disorder can realize that something is wrong, or that they are acting wrong. And that in turn, can make them feel depressed.

My ex did not, although he was a pretty bad case. He had psychotic breaks, and even when he didn't, he could re-write events so quickly and so well that he really never knew when he did anything wrong. he beat the crap out of me once, and by the time the police arrived, he'd already re-written it so that it was mostly my fault, and even if he did hit me, I goaded him into it, and it was all my fault anyway, since i was going to take the kid and leave the country, and well, a man loses control (I'm sure those of you with psycho exes know this story.)

The way my shrink explained it (who also tried to manipulate my ex, but failed), people with personality disorders feel so badly when they do something wrong--I mean, so, so badly that they might kill themselves--that their brains will re-write anything to make it so that they are not at fault. This makes sense, since a lot of people think that personality disorders are caused by abuse and shaming kids when they are very young. They develop a defense mechanism so that they never have to feel that shame anymore, and it's a good one--they're usually farked for life. On the other hand, they feel shame and worthlessness constantly, since their parents farked them up, and that's why it's a tricky thing to tell them that they have a serious mental disorder--most of the time, it just isn't done. They get diagnosed with depression or anxiety or something so they'll come to counseling, but they don't get told that they have a personality disorder.

I don't claim to understand it all ...


I read a much better explanation of why abusers rationalise the way they do recently. I think the whole "they feel so bad" and "they rewrite their memories" thing is a crock of horseshiat, and I think a lot of psychiatrists would disagree with him. ESPECIALLY about abusers like your ex.

Their emotional volatility and lack of empathy causes them to genuinely think they did nothing wrong. And over-react in selfish and violent ways to things. I wish I had the link to whatever it was I read which made this very clear.

I'm also a little confused about your use of "psychotic break". That usually means a schizophrenic episode, but a lot of people wrongly use it to mean someone losing their temper and being violent. Not sure what you meant.

I had 2 exes that were violent, both were psychopaths. One worse than the other - he finally made sense when I read some papers on sexual psychopaths recently.

Seriously, I have seen enough for myself of psych's real attitude to people who display extreme emotion (crying, suicide, etc etc) to know how sceptical of it they tend to be. Your psych seems to either have a different attitude, or perhaps he is just being too sympathetic to your ex. I have a lot of thoughts swirling about in my head but it is 4.30am ...

What he said to you just is the same load of rubbish that I wasted a lot of my life believing about my first, worst ex. It has taken me 20 years of reading etc to finally understand the real truth. I thought he was a psychopath at the time, but couldn't get a clear view because of all those crocodile tears etc etc etc. Once you understand how well these types can lie and fake emotions, things become much clearer. And they don't think they did anything wrong because they don't feel guilt. Although they fake it when they think they will lose you ...

At least he is your ex now. I think the reason why I bothered trying to write this is that it gives me the creeps thinking that someone else could hear the same thing from a psych and think "oh poor thing he just needs love and understanding and to be forgiven for what he can't help" and stay in the situation.

My exes did NOT have abusive or unhappy childhoods in ANY way at all. There is a great lecture online (forget who by, big name in psychology ...) going through the evidence and putting the lie to the idea that PD is caused by abuse. The numbers just don't support that idea, although it is popular.

I hate the fact that I spent so many years in conversations letting my ex off the hook with the lie (that I knew was a lie, stupid me) that he "went mad and couldn't help it". Your ex may differ, but mine was a psychopath for sure.
 
2012-11-28 12:47:15 AM
I just unfriended, deleted, and blocked someone who takes NO responsibility for the events in her life, so I'm getting a kick.
 
2012-11-28 01:42:51 AM

finnished: KiwDaWabbit: I'm actually pretty embarrassed to type this all out, but at least I'm trying to get some help with them. I've only ever had one meaningful relationship, and I let my disorders get the better of me and I farked it up. In my mid-30's, I'm pretty pissed at myself that I didn't do this in my mid-20's or even sooner

Admitting that you have a problem is already a huge step! And trust me, it will get better. Keep on going to therapy, and remember to enjoy yourself once in a while too. You're doing great.


agreed!
 
2012-11-28 08:22:22 AM

unchellmatt: kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

Check out the Wiki page on BPD. So help be $DEITY, it's almost word for word my ex-GF as far as actions and history; Childhood environment, alcohol abuse, eating disorder, impulsiveness, staggeringly concerned with how people treated her and making sure everyone took her "into consideration" on every little issue, etc. I mean down to nearly the last it describes her.


When did I get an alt and type this???
 
2012-11-28 08:34:51 AM

SnoopDOhDubbaGee: Clemkadidlefark:

/once is happenstance
//twice is coincidence
///three time is enemy action

Holmes

That's one of the quotes I live my life by. It's Ian Fleming though, not Conan Doyle. I offer this correction with 0% snark. Just sayin.


Same here.

"You're a Detective now. You're not allowed to believe in coincidence." - Jim Gordon
 
2012-11-28 09:16:42 AM

Cup_O_Jo: cryinoutloud: FarkinHostile: kokomo61: ....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.
Bingo.
/Divorced her when she refused to go to counseling

I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't. Their brains don't work right. You can't just say, "well, they don't want to take responsibility for their actions." They don't know how--they don't even know what it means, or how you'd go about doing something like that.

And therapy, unless they're a very mild case, doesn't work. (And even if they are capable of change, it takes years and years of very hard work, something that people with PDs don't like, because, of course--none of it is their fault!) Skip the therapy and just dump them.

Hell, my shrink told me not only that he couldn't work with my ex, he said that he couldn't even tell him that he had a mental disorder--it would cause a psychotic break and put us in more danger. Because they really do not know that there's anything wrong with them. It would be like me coming up to you and saying, "Hey guys, guess what--you have a serious mental disorder, and all those bad things that keep happening to you? You did it all. Everyone hates you, and they have good reasons for it."

So fine if you booted these people from your life, but it's a little more complicated than they just don't want to take responsibility for themselves.

ALL OF THIS. Now imagine it's your Mom or your sister or brother. It's amazing how many psychiatrist will not DIAGNOSE them because it may cause a psychotic break. Well ya know what. Maybe that psychotic break is what they need.


Its much easier to wait until the psychotic break happens on someone else's time, then recommend hospitalization...
 
2012-11-28 09:21:24 AM

umad: cryinoutloud: umad: I can't help it. My crazy ex made me this way. It isn't my fault.

I called it right the first time--you're an asshole who likes to troll around here and I caught you out the last time you were blithering on about how you were this bad dude who was a bona-fide sociopath, and no one could stop you because you were a sociopath.

I am a self-described asshole, so good work on figuring that one out.

Maybe you could address the reason you feel the need to do stupid stuff like that

Sure. I do it because I like to fark with trailer trash welfare queens who have victim complexes.


ooooh.... so edgy and hip. I bet you're 4'7" and 87 pounds of "please excuse me, sir" in the Outernet.
 
2012-11-28 10:22:17 AM

SnoopDOhDubbaGee: That's one of the quotes I live my life by. It's Ian Fleming though, not Conan Doyle.


Indeed. It's what Auric Goldfinger says to Bond after finding him at the factory in Switzerland after previously being beaten by him in Miami (happenstance) and Sandwich (coincidence).
 
2012-11-28 11:18:01 AM

StashMonster: Bender The Offender: kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

I've always said BPD is psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.

ALL personality disorders are psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.

My friend is something of an armchair expert due to having done a lot of reading (serious books) and being locked up in a secure hospital for a long time with a bunch of them, and he swears that actually all PDs are forms of psychopath.

He really is serious about that, and although I have 2 psych degrees I have to admit that he actually knows more than I do about it.

Basically, it is psychiatry's way of saying you are manipulative. Various forms of attention seeking and destructive behaviour patterns. And so on.

Quick way to get yourself labelled PD (probably borderline) is to make a suicide attempt, so never do that.


As someone who was diagnosed with personality disorders (read my Boobies in this thread if you're that interested or want specifics), I only can tell you that I feel a lot of guilt and empathy. I feel like I take responsibility for my actions, maybe too much sometimes. That's in general.

However, in the context of the relationship I talked about, as things deteriorated, I felt a lot less guilt and empathy toward her as my needs weren't being met. I started being verbally abusive as the frustration mounted and I felt like we were each waiting around for the other person to get better when, in reality, we both needed to put a lot of effort in. The verbal abuse, I feel, was way out of character for me. Looking back, I think I felt like I couldn't express myself in any other way because I wasn't getting through communication-wise. Prior to that, I would try talking things out and she'd just shut down completely and ignore me. The fact that I found out that she lied to me and manipulated me after the relationship was over didn't help matters for me, but I know it doesn't justify how I acted.

So, I dunno...maybe not everyone with personality disorders is a complete asshole who is oblivious to their imperfections. At least I'd like to still go around thinking that I'm not.
 
2012-11-28 11:26:24 AM

NCg8r: umad: cryinoutloud: umad: I can't help it. My crazy ex made me this way. It isn't my fault.

I called it right the first time--you're an asshole who likes to troll around here and I caught you out the last time you were blithering on about how you were this bad dude who was a bona-fide sociopath, and no one could stop you because you were a sociopath.

I am a self-described asshole, so good work on figuring that one out.

Maybe you could address the reason you feel the need to do stupid stuff like that

Sure. I do it because I like to fark with trailer trash welfare queens who have victim complexes.

ooooh.... so edgy and hip. I bet you're 4'7" and 87 pounds of "please excuse me, sir" in the Outernet.


ooooh.... so edgy and hip. I bet you're a real mack daddy to all of the ladies in the trailer park in the Outernet.

/it is my personality disorder doing the talking
//that my crazy ex gave to me
 
2012-11-28 12:28:17 PM

No Such Agency: groppet:
My brother is going through something like this with his MiL. She is bipolar and has had many violent outbursts. At one I was called over to pick up my niece that was 6 at the time and bring her to my parents. I have never seen that look on her face before it was a confused, scared shiatless look. She latched on to me and was so happy she made it to my parents. My brother and his wife have banned the MiL from the house if she is off her meds and once even just told her to not bother ever coming over. But recently "God healed her" and she has been back over to the house. Im lucky I get to avoid her. My SiL brother was diagnosed with bipolar disorder I think within the last 5 years. Its been odd seeing the transformation he has made. He quit drinking which for his condition is fine, but he is taking the train to crazy town with his mom. He was teaching at a religious school and quit because they didnt teach enough Jesus. He annouced he is no longer celebrating christmas for whatever reason. I think he is a few years away from joing some cult, heading to the middle of nowhere and do a Waco style compound. I worry for my brother and his family at times.

When my wife recently told me that some people use prayer to manage their anxiety (as an atheistic Buddhist, she wasn't endorsing it, mind you), this is the sort of thing I couldn't help wondering about. Because IMO there's a fine line between "looking to a higher power to give you strength to manage your issues" and "piling religious weirdness on TOP of your issues until you have a whole stinking pile that allows you to act crazy, justify it, and rebuke any attempts to give you insight as 'satanic' or whatnot".


I wish I had seen this comment last night. I hope it's not too late: Think of, instead of prayer, using meditation to manage anxiety. Good idea, right? Fifteen minutes twice a day if mindful relaxation can make all the difference to a person's anxiety level. I can't see anyone having a problem with this.

Now substitute fifteen minutes, twice a day, of prayer. And realize that for many people, the prayer state is very similar to a guided meditative state. Only they are (depending on the belief system) focusing on communicating with an external source instead of a strictly internal one. The relaxation state is very similar, as is the benefit.

Looking at it in this way, I wonder if it isn't your own perception of religion that is creeping you out about the practice of daily prayer.

/gnostic panthiest, if you have to use a label
//just decided I need to get back to the practice of daily mindful prayer
///feel and function much better when I do this
////have been a little too anxious for my tastes lately
 
2012-11-28 04:47:18 PM
namegoeshere:
Looking at it in this way, I wonder if it isn't your own perception of religion that is creeping you out about the practice of daily prayer.

In the sense that I perceive it as talking to someone extremely specific... who isn't really there? Yeah, maybe. But it's not really the gnostic pantheists who creep me out, it's the "I am a weak and worthless dirty sinner without you, Jesus" crowd that are probably harming themselves with this. I can't see that being a robust anxiety-reducing strategy, and I actually believe it's designed not to be, because an anxious believer is a fearful and easily-manipulated one.
 
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