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(The New York Times)   It turns out the American Psychiatric Association can't figure out how to deal with subby's ex-wives either   (nytimes.com) divider line 118
    More: Scary, American Psychiatric Association, Thinking Clearly, narcissistic personality disorder, clinical practice, self-help, Ares, diagnostic, Binghamton  
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12190 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2012 at 11:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-27 09:53:07 AM
"For example, the team's final proposal for narcissistic personality disorder involved rating a person on four traits, including 'manipulativeness,' 'histrionism,' and 'callousness.' The current definition includes nine possible elements."

That's a good start on defining my ex's, but they forgot to add "won't even look for a damn job-ism", "drinking until you pass out in front of the kids syndrome", and "who the hell where those strange men who just left you drunk and unable to walk on our porch at 3AM."

/not kidding
 
2012-11-27 11:19:15 AM
More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.
 
2012-11-27 11:36:30 AM
There are a lot of crazy people in modern society.

As long as they can keep attending their jobs, they survive... and breed. The crazy spreads.

Next stop: Idiocracy.
 
2012-11-27 11:41:24 AM
They also can't formulate a coherent and logical style guide either.

/Chicago, ftw
 
2012-11-27 11:43:14 AM
My first job was with them. My boss could have definitely benefitted from a more specific definition of personality disorders.

I responded to a lot of correspondence asking for information. Sometimes the crazy just lept off the pages of the crudely scrawled hand-written letters.
 
2012-11-27 11:44:47 AM
As someone who has to deal with an ex- with BPD and narcissistic rage, I'm not getting a kick...
 
2012-11-27 11:46:24 AM

sodomizer: There are a lot of crazy people in modern society.

As long as they can keep attending their jobs, they survive... and breed. The crazy spreads.

Next stop: Idiocracy.


I'll say.

static5.businessinsider.com

/I wonder how many Patrick Batemans we have in all parts of society?
 
2012-11-27 11:46:33 AM
I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!
 
2012-11-27 11:46:47 AM

sodomizer: There are a lot of crazy people in modern society.

As long as they can keep attending their jobs, they survive... and breed. The crazy spreads.

Next stop: Idiocracy.


Because being Mentally ill is the same thing as being stupid.
 
2012-11-27 11:46:51 AM
Me thinks Subby has problems of his own.... I mean, who in their right mind gets married more than once? ( even once is a questionable decision)
 
2012-11-27 11:47:50 AM
....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.
 
2012-11-27 11:49:43 AM
there are so many facets to mankind's behavior the psychiatric field seems reluctant to classify. personality disorders is painfully obvious and overdue for recognition. most people are very complex multi layered little buffets of varied input/output. i hope mankind lives the modern life long enough to really sort things out.

as for folks that have to jump on the medication hatred bandwagon. first, you don't have to take it. second, many people who need medication are instead chasing their demons with alcohol and street drugs and doing themselves absolutely no good. third, if you yourself found relief or had someone in your life that was helped by mental health related medication you would know first hand it works and its not just sold for fun and profit.
 
2012-11-27 11:50:59 AM
Soylent Green: Crazy good.
 
2012-11-27 11:54:28 AM

kokomo61: ....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.



Bingo.

/Divorced her when she refused to go to counseling
 
2012-11-27 11:55:04 AM

doczoidberg: More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.


Medications have little to no affect on personality disorders. The only treatment for them is cognitive/behavior therapy and the effectiveness of this for some of them is dubious.
 
2012-11-27 11:55:57 AM

KrispyKritter: there are so many facets to mankind's behavior the psychiatric field seems reluctant to classify. personality disorders is painfully obvious and overdue for recognition. most people are very complex multi layered little buffets of varied input/output. i hope mankind lives the modern life long enough to really sort things out.

as for folks that have to jump on the medication hatred bandwagon. first, you don't have to take it. second, many people who need medication are instead chasing their demons with alcohol and street drugs and doing themselves absolutely no good. third, if you yourself found relief or had someone in your life that was helped by mental health related medication you would know first hand it works and its not just sold for fun and profit.


That's the first time i've used the Smart button. Good job
 
2012-11-27 12:03:52 PM
Wives?

Plural?

Good God, man.

/once is happenstance
//twice is coincidence
///three time is enemy action

Holmes
 
2012-11-27 12:05:41 PM

kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!


Check out the Wiki page on BPD. So help be $DEITY, it's almost word for word my ex-GF as far as actions and history; Childhood environment, alcohol abuse, eating disorder, impulsiveness, staggeringly concerned with how people treated her and making sure everyone took her "into consideration" on every little issue, etc. I mean down to nearly the last it describes her.
 
2012-11-27 12:07:28 PM

FarkinHostile: kokomo61: ....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.
Bingo.
/Divorced her when she refused to go to counseling


I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't. Their brains don't work right. You can't just say, "well, they don't want to take responsibility for their actions." They don't know how--they don't even know what it means, or how you'd go about doing something like that.

And therapy, unless they're a very mild case, doesn't work. (And even if they are capable of change, it takes years and years of very hard work, something that people with PDs don't like, because, of course--none of it is their fault!) Skip the therapy and just dump them.

Hell, my shrink told me not only that he couldn't work with my ex, he said that he couldn't even tell him that he had a mental disorder--it would cause a psychotic break and put us in more danger. Because they really do not know that there's anything wrong with them. It would be like me coming up to you and saying, "Hey guys, guess what--you have a serious mental disorder, and all those bad things that keep happening to you? You did it all. Everyone hates you, and they have good reasons for it."

So fine if you booted these people from your life, but it's a little more complicated than they just don't want to take responsibility for themselves.
 
2012-11-27 12:07:46 PM
So, the article adds to the confusion by confusing OCD and OCPD. Glad everything is clear as mud for the non-shrinks.

OCD = anxiety disorder (think Monk)
OCPD = personality disorder (think about your office asshole who has to do everything HIS way)
 
2012-11-27 12:08:21 PM

kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!


I've always said BPD is psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.
 
2012-11-27 12:10:53 PM

Bender The Offender: kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

I've always said BPD is psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.


So is NPD and OCPD (not to be confused with OCD)
 
2012-11-27 12:11:49 PM
As someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder, I'm getting a kick, etc...

I had signs of it since early childhood, but people thought i was just shy. Well, i was, but the problem was/is much more complicated than that. Only realized i had it a few years ago.

Makes social interactions almost impossible to create, all the while i can deal with people formally without much trouble. It's one of those issues that's almost impossible to notice unless you know me. And it's hard to get to know me because, well, i avoid people beyond the strictly utilitarian.

I always feel like people are judging me constantly, like a thousand eyes watching me, and i can't ignore or let go. Because those eyes include mine. It's terrible and makes me paranoid. Completely unable to deal with social pressure. I'm always in a state of super-inhibition. I can't "just do it", break off the mold, etc. i have mental blocks, i panic, etc.

It sucks.
 
2012-11-27 12:18:32 PM

cryinoutloud: I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.


Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.
 
2012-11-27 12:19:58 PM
I work with someone I swear has histronic personality disorder. She took two days off because she had to have her dog put down and actually told me that her dogs are just like kids.... that it's like a child dying. First time in my life I was speechless.
 
2012-11-27 12:20:54 PM

FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.


Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...
 
2012-11-27 12:23:47 PM

Eps05: As someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder, I'm getting a kick, etc...

I had signs of it since early childhood, but people thought i was just shy. Well, i was, but the problem was/is much more complicated than that. Only realized i had it a few years ago.

Makes social interactions almost impossible to create, all the while i can deal with people formally without much trouble. It's one of those issues that's almost impossible to notice unless you know me. And it's hard to get to know me because, well, i avoid people beyond the strictly utilitarian.

I always feel like people are judging me constantly, like a thousand eyes watching me, and i can't ignore or let go. Because those eyes include mine. It's terrible and makes me paranoid. Completely unable to deal with social pressure. I'm always in a state of super-inhibition. I can't "just do it", break off the mold, etc. i have mental blocks, i panic, etc.

It sucks.


I can relate, although I think I fall more toward the schizoid end of that spectrum.
 
2012-11-27 12:24:21 PM

doczoidberg: More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.


There are no pills for personality disorders, chief.
 
2012-11-27 12:26:12 PM

kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!


im very thankful when the chart is flagged with BPD. It lets me know in advance what I'm dealing with. One of these characters can tear apart a ward and drain countless productivity hours if you leave them unchecked.
 
2012-11-27 12:27:00 PM

Doom MD: doczoidberg: More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.

There are no pills for personality disorders, chief.


Thank you. THIS!
 
2012-11-27 12:27:16 PM
Get a bunch of "symptoms" (i.e. pattens of thought and behaviour) that you decide are "bad" and label them a "disorder". That's how it works. Teh Gay used to be a disorder until the gays got it redefined as a lifestyle choice.
 
2012-11-27 12:29:26 PM
Clemkadidlefark:

/once is happenstance
//twice is coincidence
///three time is enemy action

Holmes


That's one of the quotes I live my life by. It's Ian Fleming though, not Conan Doyle. I offer this correction with 0% snark. Just sayin.
 
2012-11-27 12:30:00 PM
I know I was loony for marrying my ex, but no one ever diagnosed him, so I will ask the Fark panel of experts to call it. He has been remarried for 20 years, and every so often will contact mutual acquaintances and ask them if I have tried to pump them for info on him. Not only no, but hell no. In fact, if I know of a situation in which he might appear, I send my regrets and don't attend. He made a point of having someone contact me when a distant family member of his died, "just in case you wanted to know."

So, what is he? Garden variety of loser, long-distance semi-stalker, creep, or something else?
 
2012-11-27 12:32:27 PM

Hack Patooey: As someone who has to deal with an ex- with BPD and narcissistic rage, I'm not getting a kick...


Been there; moving out of the state was the only solution for me.
 
2012-11-27 12:36:13 PM

FarkinHostile: cryinoutloud: I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.


While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.

Personality disorders persist in the population because when deployed properly, they can be wildly successful individuals (the hammer in the room full of nails, so to speak). Human history has turned on such individuals. I'm sure many historical figures had personality disorders and were at the right place at the right time.
 
2012-11-27 12:38:16 PM
The APA should build a list of the abnormal behavioral traits "manipulative," "histrionic," etc to cover the full range of distinct qualities that need to be considered. Then, formulate the battery of exams to rate each trait on a scale of "not a problem" to "severely disabled" that can be plotted numerically. Finally, doctors can have their beloved categories by saying "anyone who rates a score of #.# or greater in trait2 and #.# in trait7 is suffering from MentalProblemQ." A system like this could show the plot points and suggest things like "this patient may also show MentalProblemZ because of high trait5, which might merit the creation of a new categorical illness and TreatmentType2 in addition to their existing medicine1." Everybody wins.
 
2012-11-27 12:39:46 PM

doczoidberg: More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.


How much is 'people expensive'?
 
2012-11-27 12:41:08 PM

Felgraf: FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...


A psych will tell you that if you're capable of honestly questioning your own sanity, you're probably sane; a crazy person cannot, and will adamantly refuse to believe or acknowledge that they have a problem.
 
2012-11-27 12:42:36 PM

Doom MD: FarkinHostile: cryinoutloud: I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.

Personality disorders persist in the population because when deployed properly, they can be wildly successful individuals (the hammer in the room full of nails, so to speak). Human history has turned on such individuals. I'm sure many historical figures had personality disorders and were at the right place at the right time.



A mild case of schizoid that makes a person somewhat immune to criticism and personal considerations can be handy for getting things done.
 
2012-11-27 12:42:59 PM

Felgraf: FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...


Then again, nothing says "barrel of fun" like being highly aware of all the flaws in your personality.
 
2012-11-27 12:44:19 PM

czei: "For example, the team's final proposal for narcissistic personality disorder involved rating a person on four traits, including 'manipulativeness,' 'histrionism,' and 'callousness.' The current definition includes nine possible elements."

That's a good start on defining my ex's, but they forgot to add "won't even look for a damn job-ism", "drinking until you pass out in front of the kids syndrome", and "who the hell where those strange men who just left you drunk and unable to walk on our porch at 3AM."

/not kidding


Were we inlaws? Cause that those qualities were in Both my Ex-wives
 
2012-11-27 12:44:58 PM
I read the whole article and it didn't say anything about the effect of thetans on personality.

/sham.
 
2012-11-27 12:45:28 PM

kokomo61: ....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.


There are several things that have helped me. You probably know these, but maybe someone else reading the thread doesn't.

The most difficult thing always is how to not get sucked in the drama. But feeling better about yourself seems to help a lot there. If do things that make you feel better about yourself, then, surprise surprise, you feel better about yourself. And only when you feel better about yourself, can you be there for the other person.

Also, realizing that you can't change anyone. They have to want to change.

Oh, and BPDFamily
 
2012-11-27 12:47:10 PM

Bad_Seed: Get a bunch of "symptoms" (i.e. pattens of thought and behaviour) that you decide are "bad" and label them a "disorder". That's how it works. Teh Gay used to be a disorder until the gays got it redefined as a lifestyle choice.


Personality disorders are quite real and not just made up. Homosexuality used to be classified as a mental illness. The APA removed this classification in 1972, but the debate was heated. Even today, while homosexuality is not considered a mental illness, many mental health practitioners still consider exclusive homosexuality to be a psychosexual maladjustment, but one that is laid down so early in life that it is unchangeable. This point of view is controversial, of course.
 
2012-11-27 12:47:27 PM

QueenMamaBee: I work with someone I swear has histronic personality disorder. She took two days off because she had to have her dog put down and actually told me that her dogs are just like kids.... that it's like a child dying. First time in my life I was speechless.


People with kids tells me the same thing about their pets all the time. I figure they know best what they feel and it's not up to me to judge.

Anyway...that being said...subby, seriously, getting divorced once is unfortunate, getting divorced more than once means you have an issue. Think about it. Hey, at least no one can accuse you of having commitment issues, as I have been so accused. Rightfully so, really.
 
2012-11-27 12:47:36 PM

Doom MD: While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.




Oh, I'm quite aware of that, but my point is BPD'ers can manipulate themselves out of the disorder if they so choose. I really am sick of the whole "They can't help it" manta. If I can help it, so can they.

There is little harm in this belief, and much potential for good. My self metaprogramming has greatly improved my life and relationships, at the expense of being accepting of assholes and liars.
 
2012-11-27 12:50:43 PM

Rindred: Felgraf: FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...

A psych will tell you that if you're capable of honestly questioning your own sanity, you're probably sane; a crazy person cannot, and will adamantly refuse to believe or acknowledge that they have a problem.


Psychiatrists don't really label people as "sane" or "crazy". What you're referring to is referred to in psychiatry as "insight". Some people can be quite mentally ill but be aware they're not thinking right. You're on the right track though, as a patient having good insight is a favorable prognostic indicator. It's difficult to treat someone who doesnt think they have a problem.
 
2012-11-27 12:54:39 PM
I read the first paragraph and thought it was going to end up being an advertisement for Survivor...
 
2012-11-27 12:55:28 PM

FarkinHostile: Oh, I'm quite aware of that, but my point is BPD'ers can manipulate themselves out of the disorder if they so choose. I really am sick of the whole "They can't help it" manta. If I can help it, so can they.


Oh yeah, absolutely, as long as they want to. But convincing the person is much more difficult. Of course, that's where the medication comes in. The medication won't fix the problem, but I think it makes it much easier to fix the problem.

But just like you can train your muscles, you can train your brain too. And it'll require effort the same way.
 
2012-11-27 12:57:01 PM

FarkinHostile: Doom MD: While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.



Oh, I'm quite aware of that, but my point is BPD'ers can manipulate themselves out of the disorder if they so choose. I really am sick of the whole "They can't help it" manta. If I can help it, so can they.

There is little harm in this belief, and much potential for good. My self metaprogramming has greatly improved my life and relationships, at the expense of being accepting of assholes and liars.


It's interesting to me how people can look at the same set of information and come to very different conclusions. One can say they "can't help it" and hence should be met with sympathy. One could just as easily say "you're inherently broken and beyond salvation" and cast them out. Sure, it's your fault if you hang out with a tiger and it bites you. So, this begs the question, why hang out with a tiger? Nonetheless, I don't give personality disorders a free pass for their actions, I just try to maneuver situations to where their impulses will be as much of a nonissue as possible.
 
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