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(BBC)   Greek economy saved. No really, this time it'll work   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 10
    More: Fail, Greek economy, Jean-Claude Juncker, KOSPI, Prime Ministers of Greece, MSCI, Mario Draghi, Christine Lagarde, tranches  
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5649 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Nov 2012 at 10:22 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-27 11:30:49 AM  
2 votes:

Zeb Hesselgresser:

Which tree are you plucking those $20 bills off of?


Well, the billions of nearly zero-interest bailout loans look pretty arboreal to me.

Let me be blunt: Fiscal policy requirements in times of economic crisis are not the same as in prosperity.

This is why the right wing persistently screws up economies the world over again and again: You people just cannot grasp the concept that in times of need, the question "how did we get here" just isn't relevant when the question "how the hell do we get out" is more pressing. The same fiscally conservative policies that may (or may not; that's a subject for legitimate debate) help maintain a healthy economy, but they sure-as-shiat don't help a failing economy. If you sever money flowing into the working class, you lower your expenditures, but since Greece (like most western nations) derive between 60 and 80% of their taxation revenue from people at or below the national wage average, stretching this demographic further means that the 20% savings to your operating budget results in a double to triple loss in your revenue. [Source: OECD]

When the boat is taking on water, everyone should be concerning themselves with rowing and bailing--not pushing sailors overboard. Plenty of time to hang the captain when you get a-shore.

Nationalize the banks if necessary, but Investing this bailout money heavily in infrastructure provides the foundation of a capitalist society with money which will immediately be spent on the service industry. This wealth then subsequently moves up the chain, offering more jobs. The new infrastructure is now an asset which needs to be maintained (costs money) but also generates revenue from more jobs, increased trade, and operational income. This isn't socialism, it's farking common sense--and it worked out just fine in the US c. 1930s

Funneling money into the same broken system on the contingent that they rip out huge chunks of the machinery, and above all on basis that they will be cut off if the broken machinery miraculously refuses to tick over smoothly is a goddamn stupid idea.

Let's make no mistake: Greece is in trouble because their entire economic policy is a shiatty joke of Saturday Night Live caliber. And not a good joke of the 80s/90s. We're talking 'Jimmy-Fallon-Glancing-at-the-Camera-Grinning-Nervously-While-Being-Pa id-To-Sound-Stupid' bad. But fixing this involves making fiscal decisions that give right-wingers indigestion.
2012-11-27 10:45:55 AM  
2 votes:
There has never been an economy anywhere at any time that has recovered or improved as a result of austerity.

Right-wingers can knee-jerk all they want about the cost of social assistance, but the reality has been borne out again and again. Put $20 into the pocket of a rich guy, and it goes right to the bank. Put $20 in the pocket of a working-class citizen, and it goes right into the cash register of your local store.

And as much as Chase Manhattan would love you to believe otherwise, it's the general store--not the bank--that forms the basis of a moving economy.
2012-11-27 10:24:25 AM  
2 votes:
If this doesn't work, the next step will be for the women to stop sleeping with the men until they fix the economy.
2012-11-27 04:12:51 PM  
1 votes:

nmemkha: Banks invest deposits (keeping enough on-hand to meet Reserve requirements) and then invest the rest


They...invest deposits...and then they invest the rest.

Ooookay.
2012-11-27 12:08:30 PM  
1 votes:

Mach10: Put $20 into the pocket of a rich guy, and it goes right to the bank. Put $20 in the pocket of a working-class citizen, and it goes right into the cash register of your local store.


What the hell do you think banks do with the money you deposit? Shove it up their ass? Do you know what a mortgage is?
2012-11-27 11:42:29 AM  
1 votes:

Mach10: Zeb Hesselgresser:

Which tree are you plucking those $20 bills off of?

Well, the billions of nearly zero-interest bailout loans look pretty arboreal to me.

Let me be blunt: Fiscal policy requirements in times of economic crisis are not the same as in prosperity.

This is why the right wing persistently screws up economies the world over again and again: You people just cannot grasp the concept that in times of need, the question "how did we get here" just isn't relevant when the question "how the hell do we get out" is more pressing. The same fiscally conservative policies that may (or may not; that's a subject for legitimate debate) help maintain a healthy economy, but they sure-as-shiat don't help a failing economy. If you sever money flowing into the working class, you lower your expenditures, but since Greece (like most western nations) derive between 60 and 80% of their taxation revenue from people at or below the national wage average, stretching this demographic further means that the 20% savings to your operating budget results in a double to triple loss in your revenue. [Source: OECD]

When the boat is taking on water, everyone should be concerning themselves with rowing and bailing--not pushing sailors overboard. Plenty of time to hang the captain when you get a-shore.

Nationalize the banks if necessary, but Investing this bailout money heavily in infrastructure provides the foundation of a capitalist society with money which will immediately be spent on the service industry. This wealth then subsequently moves up the chain, offering more jobs. The new infrastructure is now an asset which needs to be maintained (costs money) but also generates revenue from more jobs, increased trade, and operational income. This isn't socialism, it's farking common sense--and it worked out just fine in the US c. 1930s

Funneling money into the same broken system on the contingent that they rip out huge chunks of the machinery, and above all on basis that they will be ...


The "right wing" got Greece in trouble? Huh?

Where did Obama spend all that stimulus? How many jobs did it produce? He spent it on failed energy companies, bailed out a car maker that should have been allowed to go bankrupt, bailed out gigantic Fannie and Freddie who now control almost everything, and where are we now?

Greece failed because of entitlements. Easy work, massive benefits, all government backed. Eventually, coffers run dry, like ours are.
2012-11-27 11:36:40 AM  
1 votes:

Orgasmatron138: Thunderpipes: Within a decade, we will be in a worse situation than Greece. We can handle a bigger debt ratio, but eventually even the mighty USA cannot handle 200%, 300% debt to GDP.

I know libs don't care, but when Obama says he is saving us a trillion dollars over 10 years, yet still has trillion dollar deficits, we aren't really saving money.

We need a 500 billion dollar surplus a year to even begin to pay down the debt. With each year of trillion dollar deficits, this gets way worse. At the end of his second term, interest payments on the debt alone will be in the 500 billion dollar range. Think about all the dough being thrown away.....

Something drastic needs to happen. The country is bleeding profusely and we just keep putting on band aids and giving transfusions. We need to fix the damage.

We care, that's why we're wiling to pay more taxes.

Anyway, I know oversimplified solutions aren't really the answer, but Warren Buffet made a good point when he talked about fixing the deficit. He said "You just pass a law that says that anytime there's a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election. Yeah. Yeah. Now you've got the incentives in the right place, right?"

Fixing the deficit won't solve the problem overnight, but it will stop the bleeding. That has to be step 1, but even that won't happen until people really put Congress' feet to the fire.

If either party came up with a perfect solution that would magically solve our problems overnight, the other party would still block it because that party wouldn't want the other to be successful. That's the team mentality that our political process is reduced to.


YOU are not willing to pay more taxes. You only want the rich, the business owners to pay those taxes. That is the problem. Buffet is a loon, but I agree with him on the election thing.

Class warfare is powerful, it won Obama the election. However, that simply divides us further. The solution is simple, but won't happen. Massive cuts in spending all around, and massive loss of benefits (SS and medicare need separate fixes). The reason just increasing taxes, especially on the rich and business owners is it stifles investment and makes businesses not expand, hire, and not able to compete in the global market. Can't tax your way out, have to grow your way out combined with spending cuts. Are taxes are ridiculously high as it is.

And you can't do it having almost half of Americans who file pay no federal income tax (on income, not SS benefits). They will always vote themselves more money.

Look what Obamacare will do. Many businesses will pay the $2,000 fine to not give benefits, because the employee can then go get subsidies of $10,000 from the government to get it on their own. Businesses were already contributing way more than they should any way.

And you gotta bust unions. Not sure how much you guys realize they are costing us. CA alone is 300 billion dollars under in pensions alone. Eventually, that blows up too, and the feds cannot rescue states forever.
2012-11-27 10:53:53 AM  
1 votes:

Mach10: Right-wingers can knee-jerk all they want about the cost of social assistance, but the reality has been borne out again and again. Put $20 into the pocket of a rich guy, and it goes right to the bank. Put $20 in the pocket of a working-class citizen, and it goes right into the cash register of your local store.


I'm under the impression that Greece's problem is that the rich people take $20 from the working-class citizen and put it into their own pockets, which is why the working-class Greeks go out of their way to avoid paying taxes. The end result is that everything is financed with foreign debt.

Ideology isn't really the problem here; it's that Greece is a bureaucratically broken state that makes little distinction between austerity and old-school Keynesian policies. If the right wing is relevant at all, it's that their efforts to convince Americans that we're already a bureaucratically broken state are downright terrifying. I live in Boston so I can't even commute to work without getting a big ol' whiff of the sulfurous fart of government corruption, so I ought to be as disillusioned with government as anyone. But no, we are not anywhere close to Greece.
2012-11-27 10:52:17 AM  
1 votes:

Mach10: Put $20 into the pocket of a rich guy, and it goes right to the bank.


And of course, money in the bank stays there and does nobody any good. For money, that's a wonderful life.

i627.photobucket.com
2012-11-27 10:23:13 AM  
1 votes:
BOHICA
 
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