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(CNN)   At the Microsoft store directly across from the Apple store at the Mall of America, Surface tablets are flying off the shelf at the amazing hourly rate of.... wait for it... ZERO, compared to eleven iPads   (tech.fortune.cnn.com) divider line 188
    More: Obvious, Microsoft Research, Mall of America, Apple iPad, Microsoft, apples, Microsoft Surface, Piper Jaffray, Munsters  
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4575 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Nov 2012 at 4:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-26 10:16:10 PM

ParanoidAgnostic: Kazan: ParanoidAgnostic: I've also heard disturbing rumors that windows 9 will go completely walled-garden.

won't happen. tell whoever told you that to get their head out of their ass and imagine all the lawsuits microsoft wants to avoid

I know, it sounds stupid. But with Windows RT MS seems determined to copy the worst 'feature' of iOS. When they get a taste of getting a cut of all software sold for their system I worry they won't want to go back to the old ways.


I doubt it's likely they'd adopt that approach for desktops/laptops, BUT people have been dissing Microsoft's security efforts for years. A closed, wall-garden system eliminates 95% of the security battlefront in one swoop.

As with everything in computing, it's a matter of picking your poison.
 
2012-11-26 10:19:27 PM

styckx: L.D. Ablo: Windows 8 is Vista redux.

Windows 8 is actually really good.. Microsoft just has done an absolutely shiatty job advertising it and any questions and critiques regarding it are responded by putting their fingers in their ears and saying "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN"T HEAR YOU"..

Metro has been blown so completely out of proportion it's ridiculous.


Really good for touch, not so much for desktop computing, which is why they include a classic version for not touch products.

Useit did a pretty thorough user testing analysis of the interface and breaks down most of its flaws pretty well. Pretty much all of it can be fixed in 9 or whatever comes next, but it definitely sounds like it needs some work.

Personally I am excited about the Pro version of the Surface, if the pen included has pressure sensitivity. There are really very few affordable choices out there for laptops that you can draw on. If it's powerful and has decent pressure sensitivity, I would buy one to have as a portable drawing pad.
 
2012-11-26 10:36:57 PM
I'm not surprised that the Surface RT isn't selling much. I am, along with most of the people that I know, are waiting for the Windows 8 version to come out as none of us have any real use for a tablet os.
 
2012-11-26 10:40:33 PM

RexTalionis: imgod2u: That being said, all programs developed for Windows 8 will be able to run on both RT and Pro

Only if that program was compiled to run on ARM processors as well as x64/x86. The developer has the option to choose whether or not to compile for ARM and Windows RT platforms. Windows RT installations cannot natively run x86 or x64 applications.


IIRC, Windows 8 development emulates much of Android in that it runs on an interpreter (.Net runtime) rather than compiling to native code. Only certain very performance-sensitive subsections of the code need to be native and even then, they make it ridiculously easy to compile to both.

If there's one thing Microsoft is actually really good at, it's convincing developers to do things a certain way.
 
2012-11-26 10:43:11 PM

m1ke: So I go to the MS Store just to look at the device in my hands and they tell me that the clicky-able keyboard is an additional feature that costs an additional 120 bucks.


Is the iPad keyboard free?
 
2012-11-26 10:47:58 PM

andyofne: m1ke: So I go to the MS Store just to look at the device in my hands and they tell me that the clicky-able keyboard is an additional feature that costs an additional 120 bucks.

Is the iPad keyboard free?


The Apple version is 69 bucks. Others are less expensive.

They sure as fark aren't 120 bucks.
 
2012-11-26 10:52:51 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: andyofne: m1ke: So I go to the MS Store just to look at the device in my hands and they tell me that the clicky-able keyboard is an additional feature that costs an additional 120 bucks.

Is the iPad keyboard free?

The Apple version is 69 bucks. Others are less expensive.

They sure as fark aren't 120 bucks.


And I see the surface keyboard is $79.95.
 
2012-11-26 11:37:03 PM

styckx: L.D. Ablo: Windows 8 is Vista redux.

Windows 8 is actually really good.. Microsoft just has done an absolutely shiatty job advertising it and any questions and critiques regarding it are responded by putting their fingers in their ears and saying "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN"T HEAR YOU"..

Metro has been blown so completely out of proportion it's ridiculous.


Have you ever tried to use it? I just have it for games. It's ability to make easy stuff hard and enforce the "official microsoft way to do things" for basic tasks make me laugh. I wouldn't be too surprised if the underlying OS had some improvements (this wouldn't be following the Sirian Cybernetics Policy of hiding glaring defects with superficial defects, but after 8+ tries they might have gotten something right), but there is no reason to subject yourself with Metro.

/Happy with KDE3
//Linux desktop may be dead
///Dead beats whatever metro is.
 
2012-11-26 11:37:53 PM
So Apple uses basically slave labor in China and then charges us top dollar over here for it. Yeah they are such a cool company. I use to use Apple. I once thought they were pretty cool but I see them very differently now.

Greedy monopolies use to not be considered so cool once.
 
2012-11-26 11:49:45 PM

Olympus Mons: So Apple uses basically slave labor in China and then charges us top dollar over here for it. Yeah they are such a cool company. I use to use Apple. I once thought they were pretty cool but I see them very differently now.

Greedy monopolies use to not be considered so cool once.


I hate to break this to you, but Microsoft's Surface Tablets aren't exactly made by union labor.
 
2012-11-27 12:03:01 AM

Kazan: OscarTamerz: I've never had anything but Microsoft computers running Windows and so on black Friday I bought a higher range laptop because one of my 2 which both ran 7 conked out on me and without any research I bought a Toshiba with an i7 Intel processor, 640 GB HDD and 6GB or ram. I have been wrestling with 8 ever since and I'm looking for a 7 disc so I can turn it into something I can feasibly use. I have a little message for everybody at Microsoft from Steve Ballmer on down.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 750x500]

And no, firing the head of Windows, Sinofsky, last week does nothing to ameliorate the fix I'm in now with a completely new interface after learning Windows since 3.1 and 95. Change everything back and give me a free farking copy you farking rat bastards.

Stardock Start8


And while you're there, pick up a cope of Sins of a Solar Empire...
 
2012-11-27 12:25:55 AM

Diogenes: I went to the Microsoft store that opened back in October here just to check it out. Some guy gave me a demo of Windows 8 and could not answer a single one of my questions. All he could do was demo it.

I've never been to an Apple store as I do not have any Apple products other than my Ipod. But I get the impression the quality of Apple geeks working there is much higher than at MS.


Meh.
 
2012-11-27 12:32:54 AM
If you are confused by Windows 8 after using it for more than 5 minutes, congrats, you're retarded. It's incredibly easy and once you get used to the interface it makes sense. There are some quibbles I have with it, but it's not the abortion it was made out to be.

Oh no, there's no desktop. Click the desktop tile or Windows M. Not too difficult.

//If Apple came up with the tile design it would be heralded as revolutionary.
 
2012-11-27 12:58:24 AM
I was playing with a Surface at the Microsoft Kiosk in the Galleria here in St. Louis, and I thought it was pretty neat. Unfortunately, much like the Zune (which was actually a great piece of hardware by its second generation), Microsoft doesn't have a clue how to sell this thing. The salespeople were obnoxious and grating, and the price is way too high on these devices. The cool keyboard touch pad is $130 extra.

What it boils down to is that for the price of a good laptop, you can get a tablet and keyboard that has about half the functionality. And you're stuck downloading MS approved apps because the Surface isn't able to load unapproved Windows 8 apps and games the way a Windows 8 notebook can. The app market Microsoft currently has is rivaled only by the Blackberry App World for its lack of compelling content.

Incidentally, I was playing with Windows 8 today and it's actually very good, even without a touch screen. That Microsoft can create a decent product and completely blow the marketing on it (while still spending a ton of money trying to make people care!) tells you how much trouble MS is really in.
 
2012-11-27 01:35:14 AM

Kazan: also.. Microsoft Tablet PC . let's be accurate as to who was first to market...


That's be the GRiDPad, released by Samsung and GRiD Computer Systems in 1989, the same people went off to make Palm. Used IBM's PC-DOS so had zip to do with Microsoft.

Now, do we have a Microsoft employee revising history. Gee, what a surprise. Haven't you accused Apple people of trying the very same shiat? Why yes, yes you have.

10min in the bad boy box.
 
2012-11-27 01:43:24 AM

ParanoidAgnostic: Hopefully the full-featured surfaces will do something to reverse that trend.


What trend? The same companies who make x86 powered tablets are still making x86 powered tablets. They tend to be quite cumbersome, heavy and expensive compared to their consumer focused 'slate' brethren.

People seem to think the Surface Pro is going to weigh the same as an iPad, be totally passively cooled and have a knickers wetting battery life.

Those people are in for a major disappointment and I'll laugh at them when MSFT finally release it. It's just going to be A. N. Other x86 tablet with all the design problems using that processor arch entails.
 
2012-11-27 01:52:51 AM

ParanoidAgnostic: MS has had a mobile OS since 1996. Long before Mr Turtleneck even dreamed of making a smart phone.


Yes, yes they did and one of the main reasons a LOT of people won't go near the WP7/WP8 crap is it STILL STINKS OF CE.

So now ask yourself: How 'good' was that mobile OS if people still don't want to go near it again over a decade later? CE was hilariously bad when they decided to make it a phone OS instead of just existing on PDA's; even with (then at least) top of the line kit the thing would STILL lag itself in to oblivion; when a call came it it was more likley to time out to voice mail than the ringer sound.

So that's Windows CE (i.e. Windows Phone's heritage). That's the mobile OS you are now cheering for? Okedokey, have fun as this I've got to see.
 
2012-11-27 01:56:41 AM

Vaneshi: ParanoidAgnostic: Hopefully the full-featured surfaces will do something to reverse that trend.

What trend? The same companies who make x86 powered tablets are still making x86 powered tablets. They tend to be quite cumbersome, heavy and expensive compared to their consumer focused 'slate' brethren.

People seem to think the Surface Pro is going to weigh the same as an iPad, be totally passively cooled and have a knickers wetting battery life.

Those people are in for a major disappointment and I'll laugh at them when MSFT finally release it. It's just going to be A. N. Other x86 tablet with all the design problems using that processor arch entails.


I have a window 7 tablet. I know that you sacrifice weight and size for power.A worthwhile trade to get a real computer in a take-anywhere use-anywhere form

/Unfortunately win7 is horrible to use with a touch interface
 
2012-11-27 01:59:52 AM

Vaneshi: ParanoidAgnostic: MS has had a mobile OS since 1996. Long before Mr Turtleneck even dreamed of making a smart phone.

Yes, yes they did and one of the main reasons a LOT of people won't go near the WP7/WP8 crap is it STILL STINKS OF CE.

So now ask yourself: How 'good' was that mobile OS if people still don't want to go near it again over a decade later? CE was hilariously bad when they decided to make it a phone OS instead of just existing on PDA's; even with (then at least) top of the line kit the thing would STILL lag itself in to oblivion; when a call came it it was more likley to time out to voice mail than the ringer sound.

So that's Windows CE (i.e. Windows Phone's heritage). That's the mobile OS you are now cheering for? Okedokey, have fun as this I've got to see.


I had 3 phones with earlier versions of windows mobile. Since then I've had an iPhone and currently have an android. Both have just made me miss windows mobile.
 
2012-11-27 02:09:10 AM

Vaneshi: ParanoidAgnostic: MS has had a mobile OS since 1996. Long before Mr Turtleneck even dreamed of making a smart phone.

Yes, yes they did and one of the main reasons a LOT of people won't go near the WP7/WP8 crap is it STILL STINKS OF CE.

So now ask yourself: How 'good' was that mobile OS if people still don't want to go near it again over a decade later? CE was hilariously bad when they decided to make it a phone OS instead of just existing on PDA's; even with (then at least) top of the line kit the thing would STILL lag itself in to oblivion; when a call came it it was more likley to time out to voice mail than the ringer sound.

So that's Windows CE (i.e. Windows Phone's heritage). That's the mobile OS you are now cheering for? Okedokey, have fun as this I've got to see.


Also my comment was in response to someone who believed MS was late to the smartphone market
 
2012-11-27 02:32:34 AM

RexTalionis: imgod2u: That being said, all programs developed for Windows 8 will be able to run on both RT and Pro

Only if that program was compiled to run on ARM processors as well as x64/x86. The developer has the option to choose whether or not to compile for ARM and Windows RT platforms. Windows RT installations cannot natively run x86 or x64 applications.


Not exactly, there is no distinction between ARM/x86/x64 in Modern apps- its all about the APIs you use.

Windows RT is the Metro/Modern environment. Applications built for RT/Modern work on Windows 8, WinRT, WinPro, and even Windows Phone* (with some porting for screen size/layout, if written in C#/XAML, HTML5/XAML, or XNA), so long as you don't try to make use of the legacy MFC/Windows/whateverthefarkelse APIs in Metro, your apps WILL work across Win8/Pro/RT/Phone*

Its not the compilation that matters, its the libraries you build against.
 
2012-11-27 03:41:50 AM
PC users:

PC's are better, they have way more apps and games!

Mac users:

I have all the apps I need! besides, it's about the quality of the apps, not quantity!

iPad Users:

iPads are better, they have way more apps and games!

Android Tablet users:
I have all the apps I need! besides, it's about the quality of the apps, not quantity!

Surface: won't someone pay attention to me?
 
2012-11-27 03:48:08 AM
OriginalGamer:

PC users:

PC's are better, they have way more apps and games!
they are actual general purpose computers which can be used in an infinite number of different ways.

Mac users:

I have all the apps I need! besides, it's about the quality of the apps, not quantity!
Macs look pretty

iPad Users:

iPads are better, they have way more apps and games!
Mommy mommy! look at my high score on angry birds!
 
2012-11-27 04:15:19 AM
Personally I prefer Function, not Fashion in my computing devices.
 
2012-11-27 07:09:53 AM

Diogenes: I get the impression the quality of Apple geeks working there is much higher than at MS.


Thanks for that, I haven't laughed like this since I was a little girl.

That said, the greatest trick Microsoft ever pulled was convincing consumers that the tablet PC didn't exist over a decade before the ipad.

...maybe.
 
2012-11-27 07:12:17 AM

dehehn: Really good for touch, not so much for desktop computing, which is why they include a classic version for not touch products.

Useit did a pretty thorough user testing analysis of the interface and breaks down most of its flaws pretty well. Pretty much all of it can be fixed in 9 or whatever comes next by sticking with 7.


Microsoft to stop hamstringing it's own operating systems, IMO.
 
2012-11-27 08:07:28 AM
I have no issues using 8 on my laptop and my desktop. As stated, if you can't figure out the basics within 5-10 minutes, you're a Moran. Also, for once doing a non-clean install didn't break y system and Sony already had drivers out for my laptop. Had some issues with the desktop, but that was due to a cheap monoprice HDMI cable that had handshake issues with my Onkyo Receiver.

/Not a fangirl, I use everything but Linux at the moment: 8 on two PCs, new Samsung S3 to replace an iJesusPhone 4 (now just A crappy iPod touch), Hackintosh Acer Aspire One, and rooted Nook Color. 8's been one of the better OSes as of late, and It's much better to use than OSX.
 
2012-11-27 08:31:00 AM

TheAgeOfEgos: I tried 8, couldn't stand it. I'm sure it's easier on a tablet but I really don't care about Windows running on a tablet. I'm guessing this is likely a sign most people don't either.

Not to mention, as someone that works in Healthcare IT, I found the idea of trying to teach 8 to staff--nauseating. 7 is solid, that's where I (we) will be staying--as I suspect 9 will be absent Metro.


My theory is that Microsoft has gotten into the same kind of release cycle as Trek movies.

I'll be sticking to the odd-numbered OSes.
 
2012-11-27 08:57:29 AM

Vaneshi: ParanoidAgnostic: MS has had a mobile OS since 1996. Long before Mr Turtleneck even dreamed of making a smart phone.

Yes, yes they did and one of the main reasons a LOT of people won't go near the WP7/WP8 crap is it STILL STINKS OF CE.

So now ask yourself: How 'good' was that mobile OS if people still don't want to go near it again over a decade later? CE was hilariously bad when they decided to make it a phone OS instead of just existing on PDA's; even with (then at least) top of the line kit the thing would STILL lag itself in to oblivion; when a call came it it was more likley to time out to voice mail than the ringer sound.

So that's Windows CE (i.e. Windows Phone's heritage). That's the mobile OS you are now cheering for? Okedokey, have fun as this I've got to see.


Windows Phone 7/8 is not Windows CE
 
2012-11-27 09:06:44 AM
Umm... i know many people with surfaces and they are happy with them... BUT they also ordered online.. why stand in line with a bunch of dorks when you can just order online and go jerkoff and relax....
 
2012-11-27 09:36:29 AM

BohemianGraham: As stated, if you can't figure out the basics within 5-10 minutes, you're a Moran.


Okay, but keep in mind that 90% of the potential market for Windows 8 devices are morans.

To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, you design UX for the users you have, not the users you wish you had.
 
2012-11-27 10:58:06 AM

poot_rootbeer: BohemianGraham: As stated, if you can't figure out the basics within 5-10 minutes, you're a Moran.

Okay, but keep in mind that 90% of the potential market for Windows 8 devices are morans.

To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, you design UX for the users you have, not the users you wish you had.


Touche. I just think people are whining about nothing, Especially regarding the whole start button thing. Guess I just use my pc differently, and thus had fewer problems adapting.
 
2012-11-27 11:36:44 AM

Vaneshi: ParanoidAgnostic: MS has had a mobile OS since 1996. Long before Mr Turtleneck even dreamed of making a smart phone.

Yes, yes they did and one of the main reasons a LOT of people won't go near the WP7/WP8 crap is it STILL STINKS OF CE.

So now ask yourself: How 'good' was that mobile OS if people still don't want to go near it again over a decade later? CE was hilariously bad when they decided to make it a phone OS instead of just existing on PDA's; even with (then at least) top of the line kit the thing would STILL lag itself in to oblivion; when a call came it it was more likley to time out to voice mail than the ringer sound.

So that's Windows CE (i.e. Windows Phone's heritage). That's the mobile OS you are now cheering for? Okedokey, have fun as this I've got to see.


Windows Phone 7 was based on CE, and it was pretty decent. CE's problems came from OEMs shoehorning it onto every kind of SoC imaginable without giving two shiats about whether or not it ran well. When WP7 was locked to Snapdragon processors, this problem went away.

Windows Phone 8 is not a CE-based operating system. It's based on NT.
 
2012-11-27 04:16:53 PM

Shazam999: jayhawk88: styckx: L.D. Ablo: Windows 8 is Vista redux.

Windows 8 is actually really good.. Microsoft just has done an absolutely shiatty job advertising it and any questions and critiques regarding it are responded by putting their fingers in their ears and saying "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN"T HEAR YOU"..

Metro has been blown so completely out of proportion it's ridiculous.

You can get used to Metro, sure, but the thing is, from a desktop perspective it's change for the sake of change. There's no good reason to do that to the Start Menu. On a tablet or some kind of touch screen sure, makes sense and probably is a lot more efficient. But on a desktop, it's just something you have to adapt to.

I dunno, the Start Menu is nigh useless in 7. I only ever use the "Pin to Start Menu", and the search box. Everything else is ignored. The list of programs is totally useless since it gets too long, and when was the last time you ever used the "Documents", "Pictures" or "Music" links from there?


this guy never turns off his computer
 
2012-11-27 04:56:45 PM

moothemagiccow: this guy never turns off his computer


The Surface isn't really designed to be turned off. You normally just hit the lock button to put it to sleep like you do with an iPad or a Android tablet, so having to do a few swipes to go to Settings > Power isn't really a big deal when you consider how people are actually going to be using devices. My computers get rebooted about once a month when security updates come out, otherwise they sleep or hibernate, so I don't really see the need to have the option to power down be right on the Start Screen.
 
2012-11-27 06:03:17 PM
The biggest gripe I have (which is minor) is the lack of a native clock app. I know there are free ones in the store, but it doesn't make sense it isn't there. Other than that I have no issues with 8 at all.
 
2012-11-27 06:40:03 PM

moothemagiccow: Shazam999: jayhawk88: styckx: L.D. Ablo: Windows 8 is Vista redux.

Windows 8 is actually really good.. Microsoft just has done an absolutely shiatty job advertising it and any questions and critiques regarding it are responded by putting their fingers in their ears and saying "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN"T HEAR YOU"..

Metro has been blown so completely out of proportion it's ridiculous.

You can get used to Metro, sure, but the thing is, from a desktop perspective it's change for the sake of change. There's no good reason to do that to the Start Menu. On a tablet or some kind of touch screen sure, makes sense and probably is a lot more efficient. But on a desktop, it's just something you have to adapt to.

I dunno, the Start Menu is nigh useless in 7. I only ever use the "Pin to Start Menu", and the search box. Everything else is ignored. The list of programs is totally useless since it gets too long, and when was the last time you ever used the "Documents", "Pictures" or "Music" links from there?

this guy never turns off his computer


Actually, I never do. Sleep or hibernation.
 
2012-11-28 03:32:58 AM

Rent Party: Diogenes: I went to the Microsoft store that opened back in October here just to check it out. Some guy gave me a demo of Windows 8 and could not answer a single one of my questions. All he could do was demo it.

I've never been to an Apple store as I do not have any Apple products other than my Ipod. But I get the impression the quality of Apple geeks working there is much higher than at MS.

They're really not. These are the guys that graduated from the Geek Squad for being SMRT smart!


Exact same batch of brainless window lickers. No idea how to fix the hardware (even crap like hinges on the stupid macbook airs), no idea how to resolve and sort of software issue, god help you if you have some sort of driver related issue because of some 400% overpriced video card when you updated the goddamn drivers and now the system is bricking.

My favorite was buying 'certified ram' for a system that was mirroring a windows box I build for the lab. The windows box cost $920. The ram for the mac version (with crappier components) was $650.

//hates working in apple labs.
 
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