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(Wall Street Journal)   Want proof China already owns us? The producer of 'Red Dawn' said "And to make a long story short, no one would distribute the film if the enemy was China"   (blogs.wsj.com) divider line 209
    More: Obvious, Red Dawn, Providence College, Central Asian, jingoism, comics creators, indie comics  
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1756 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Nov 2012 at 2:26 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-26 03:39:43 PM  

DarnoKonrad: coeyagi: Jim_Callahan: coeyagi: Non-extra terrestrial foreigner. Sorry, should have obviously specified.

OK. Sitting Bull.

Though, that said, we established the general point (that the US will still watch movies where the US is the villain, or even cartoonishly evil) a long while back and now we're just moving the goal posts more and more arbitrarily specific as an academic exercise.

Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.



Canadian Bacon


Fair enough. I mean, it does fit those parameters. I would only say that it is a self-deprecating, comedic look at Americans whereas this movie paints the North Koreans (and before editing, the Chinese) as evil invaders. Again, I am moving the goal posts. Bad coeyagi, bad!
 
2012-11-26 03:42:11 PM  
As someone who was a teen in the 80's....I don't know if I will or be able to sit through this remake.

Hell the original had some great lines

After the first action with the enemy:

Danny,"they were people"
Robert, "yeah?....well so was my dad"

Mr Eckert...."Avenge me boys!!!Avenge me!!!!"

Good stuff!, great cast, they even threw in Powers Boothe.

Sure it was a campy pro-USA! USA! movie, but I always thought it was pretty good. Milius even got it right when the enemy commander told his troops to go to the sporting good store to get the "form 4473's" to find out who owned/bought guns.

The original was a even a pretty good primer for WW3 survival, to this day the friggin' mayors kid isn't coming no where near any group of mine.
 
2012-11-26 03:42:18 PM  

coeyagi: Jim_Callahan: coeyagi: Non-extra terrestrial foreigner. Sorry, should have obviously specified.

OK. Sitting Bull.

Though, that said, we established the general point (that the US will still watch movies where the US is the villain, or even cartoonishly evil) a long while back and now we're just moving the goal posts more and more arbitrarily specific as an academic exercise.

Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.


Dances with Wolves/Avatar.
 
2012-11-26 03:42:53 PM  

BalugaJoe: Regardless, the movie isn't doing well at the box office.


It got raped by the critics. Does that mean Armond White likes it? Checking RottenTomatoes.... hmm, don't see his review there. Apathetic Armond... how exciting!
 
2012-11-26 03:44:35 PM  

devildog123: coeyagi: Jim_Callahan: coeyagi: Non-extra terrestrial foreigner. Sorry, should have obviously specified.

OK. Sitting Bull.

Though, that said, we established the general point (that the US will still watch movies where the US is the villain, or even cartoonishly evil) a long while back and now we're just moving the goal posts more and more arbitrarily specific as an academic exercise.

Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.

Dances with Wolves/Avatar.


Avatar - extra-terrestrials, not a foreign country, and one of the protagonists was American.

Dances with Wolves - also, one of the protagonists was American
 
2012-11-26 03:45:03 PM  
Commie China #1!!
 
2012-11-26 03:46:02 PM  

Tailgunner Joe: As someone who was a teen in the 80's....I don't know if I will or be able to sit through this remake.

Hell the original had some great lines

After the first action with the enemy:

Danny,"they were people"
Robert, "yeah?....well so was my dad"

Mr Eckert...."Avenge me boys!!!Avenge me!!!!"

Good stuff!, great cast, they even threw in Powers Boothe.

Sure it was a campy pro-USA! USA! movie, but I always thought it was pretty good. Milius even got it right when the enemy commander told his troops to go to the sporting good store to get the "form 4473's" to find out who owned/bought guns.

The original was a even a pretty good primer for WW3 survival, to this day the friggin' mayors kid isn't coming no where near any group of mine.


They had the perfect opportunity to use the "Avenge me Boys!" line, and didn't use it. Right before the NKs execute the dad, they have him trying to talk to his sons over a loudspeaker. He gives some speech about how they have to fight, blah, blah, blah. You could tell the whole theater was waiting for him to end with "Avenge me boys! Avenge me!" but they didn't. The movie just went downhill from there.
 
2012-11-26 03:47:13 PM  
Is this like how there are a lot of Jewish producers/directors, so therefore the Jews own the news and the "media"?
 
2012-11-26 03:48:00 PM  

make me some tea: They have a million or so soldiers, but their tech sucks. I wouldn't want to ever have to confront them in a land war.


yeah, you were probably worried about Saddams army too.
 
2012-11-26 03:50:32 PM  

coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.


Well, the whole "imaginary invasion of a specific other country" thing is a pretty specific sub-genre that consists almost entirely of the US and the USSR making propaganda directed at each other over the course of the cold war. The closest modern film I can think of would be Amigo, which is an American film by an American writer/director about the actual historical US invasion and occupation of the Philipines. It didn't get a huge release, but in all fairness neither has the Red Dawn remake. I live in a fairly large metro area and there's like one theater showing RD on a given day, usually with limited showings.

And I guess the analogy gets stronger again when you consider that Red Dawn was itself a reference to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, so it had its historical source, too.

Yeah, I'm going with Amigo.

On a Red Dawn related side-note, it's worth noting that it wasn't the first time the premise had come up, it was just the first time the premise had been actually taken seriously outside of outright propaganda. For a more typical treatment of the idea you might try "The Russians Are Coming", which is basically Red Dawn as an outright comedy (and a few decades earlier). A new England town is "invaded" when the captain of a Russian submarine gets drunk and accidentally beaches the craft, and it goes downhill from there. Notable lines include word-for-word McCarthy quotes coming from a literal eight-year-old boy.
 
2012-11-26 03:52:03 PM  

coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.



Not a big movie buff, but I have to believe you'd be able to find one from the Vietnam era.
 
2012-11-26 03:52:29 PM  
www.logoterra.com

Americans
Must bow to
China
 
2012-11-26 03:53:30 PM  
They had to re-shoot multiple scenes detailing how the US was defeated through insidious contamination of our Coke supply
 
2012-11-26 03:54:14 PM  
Red Dawn should never had been remade at all in my opinion, it is a product of the cold war and while we should most definitely learn from our past works of fiction about said past do not need to be dragged up and remade.
 
2012-11-26 03:56:11 PM  
You couldn't make Israel the enemy either so does that mean Israel owns.. Oh wait, nevermind!
 
2012-11-26 03:58:35 PM  

coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.



Also, if set in the future, I could see it playing with American audiences just fine without much offense.  Again, I have no examples, sorry.  But I could see a movie where America turned rather evil and is now trying to take over another country.  And the goal is to get the viewer to feel for citizens of that other country.
 
2012-11-26 03:59:42 PM  
Unavailable for comment, frowns on shenanigans:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-11-26 04:04:04 PM  

coeyagi: coeyagi: Jim_Callahan: coeyagi: Non-extra terrestrial foreigner. Sorry, should have obviously specified.

OK. Sitting Bull.

Though, that said, we established the general point (that the US will still watch movies where the US is the villain, or even cartoonishly evil) a long while back and now we're just moving the goal posts more and more arbitrarily specific as an academic exercise.

Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.

Nevermind. Someone is going to answer with an example out of the Civil War. I'll have to keep moving it. Forget it. An apples to apples comparison is most likely impossible.


Birth of a Nation.
 
2012-11-26 04:04:28 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: - I hated the team of old guys that dropped in asking for help stealing something. They were chubby and old, far from what I would consider a Seal or Ranger. Even in the original, the Air Force pilot seems like more of a bad-ass.


They had Powers Booth in the original. The only more badass low-key person they could have used would have been Stacy Keach but he would have exploded peoples minds with his awesomeness.
 
2012-11-26 04:04:34 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: make me some tea: They have a million or so soldiers, but their tech sucks. I wouldn't want to ever have to confront them in a land war.

yeah, you were probably worried about Saddams army too.


Not really, but then again Iraqis weren't completely brainwashed like the NK people are.
 
2012-11-26 04:04:53 PM  
They should make a movie about the Obama Heathcare Program.
 
2012-11-26 04:06:51 PM  

make me some tea: Not really, but then again Iraqis weren't completely brainwashed like the NK people are.


because brainwashing tops bullets?
 
2012-11-26 04:06:54 PM  
Hollywood executives try not to alienate their market when producing/marketing movies. More with Ric Romero at 11.
 
2012-11-26 04:07:34 PM  

downstairs: coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.


Also, if set in the future, I could see it playing with American audiences just fine without much offense.  Again, I have no examples, sorry.  But I could see a movie where America turned rather evil and is now trying to take over another country.  And the goal is to get the viewer to feel for citizens of that other country.


Agreed. It typically takes the form of multinational companies lording over a dystopian future. But even if it was straight-up the American government, it could be shrugged off as a cautionary tale about the path we're on.
 
2012-11-26 04:08:37 PM  
There are lots of movies where the U.S. government/military are the bad guys, but I have a hard time thinking of any with a foreign protagonist, if you are going to exclude extra-terrestrials. If you include them, the numbers go way up.
 
2012-11-26 04:09:21 PM  

Jim_Callahan: And yet when we make movies where the US is the villain, the US audience still watches it with no qualms whatsoever. The Bourne movies would be a good example.

A basic sense of humor and perspective is required to function in the modern world, China should take note of that in their efforts to catch up to the rest of us.


In the second Batman reboot movie, "Dark Knight", the mob boss's accountant, Lau, is Chinese and flees to Hong Kong with the mob's cash. It's implied that Lau is safe because the Chinese government is protecting him. So Batman, with the blessings of the district attorney and the police commissioner, violates Chinese sovereignty, pulls off a "Seal Team Six"-style solo raid, and kidnaps Lau back to the US.

Strangely enough, "The Dark Knight" broke box office records in China.

In both "Dark Knight" and the "Bourne" series, the respective governments, or some part of them, were the "bad guys". The bad guy Lau was even a Chinese national. But in both of these films, the government mendacity depicted is a far cry from a story of a massive invasion waged by the national military.

How much screaming would we hear from the wingnuts in this country if a Chinese-owned film company wanted to distribute a film depicting an invasion of innocent China by the bad-guy US military, and the US military loses?
 
2012-11-26 04:09:36 PM  

stevetherobot: There are lots of movies where the U.S. government/military are the bad guys, but I have a hard time thinking of any with a foreign protagonist, if you are going to exclude extra-terrestrials. If you include them, the numbers go way up.


Agreed. And even then, a subset of those have an American "traitor" become one of the good guys, at least in some of the examples given upthread.
 
2012-11-26 04:09:45 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: because brainwashing tops bullets?


stops.

I really need to fix the 's' on my keyboard
 
2012-11-26 04:10:54 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: make me some tea: Not really, but then again Iraqis weren't completely brainwashed like the NK people are.

because brainwashing tops bullets?


Not only would we be fighting the soldiers, we'd also be fighting the civilians too.
 
2012-11-26 04:13:43 PM  

JoeMax23: It's implied that Lau is safe because the Chinese government is protecting him. So Batman, with the blessings of the district attorney and the police commissioner, violates Chinese sovereignty, pulls off a "Seal Team Six"-style solo raid, and kidnaps Lau back to the US.

Strangely enough, "The Dark Knight" broke box office records in China.


small part of the movie + people in china might not be all likey likey on the government. But to make their fathers and sons the bad guys in a movie might not go over as well.
 
2012-11-26 04:15:47 PM  

make me some tea: Not only would we be fighting the soldiers, we'd also be fighting the civilians too.


maybe. or maybe we offer pizza with any surrender.

When people face as much hardship as the NKs have, I'm not all that convinced their camera induced loyalty isn't more along the 'not getting sent to jail' variety.
 
2012-11-26 04:19:00 PM  

DarnoKonrad: coeyagi: Okay, we are at the crux of the argument now.

Show me any film for an American audience where the American military or U.S. government is the villain and some foreigner or foreign group is the protagonist. Because that would be the appropriate counter example to this movie and why the Chinese were not the enemy.


Inglorious Bastards? I had a hard time identifying with unrepentant two dimensional sociopaths. All the Nazis, while being Nazis, were more fully developed, and as such, more sympathetic. Very strange ass movie.


That was literally a Jewish revenge flick. A giant FARK YOU from a bunch of Hollywood Jews (mainly Taratino, of course, but also the Weinstein brothers and others) to the Nazis.

However, you missed the strangest part of the movie: Two seperate groups attempt to kill Hilter and the entire German high command, at the exact same time in the exact same place, and neither group is aware the other group even exists.

In any case, the Americans (and the US government) are the good guys in the movie (along with the theater owner and her lover), even if you didn't like their characters.
 
2012-11-26 04:19:01 PM  

BalugaJoe: They should make a movie about the Obama Heathcare Program.


They already did. It was called "Soylent Green".
 
2012-11-26 04:21:32 PM  

coeyagi: downstairs: coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.


Also, if set in the future, I could see it playing with American audiences just fine without much offense.  Again, I have no examples, sorry.  But I could see a movie where America turned rather evil and is now trying to take over another country.  And the goal is to get the viewer to feel for citizens of that other country.

Agreed. It typically takes the form of multinational companies lording over a dystopian future. But even if it was straight-up the American government, it could be shrugged off as a cautionary tale about the path we're on.



Also, don't forget large parts of 24, America was kinda the antagonist.  Which is why Jack Bauer often had to go rouge and all that.  Jack was the hero, and the entire American government wanted to silence him because they didn't believe him, etc. etc.  Happened on more than one season.
 
2012-11-26 04:21:50 PM  

udhq: BalugaJoe: They should make a movie about the Obama Heathcare Program.

They already did. It was called "Soylent Green".


cdn2-b.examiner.com

Palin still won't sleep with you.
 
2012-11-26 04:23:25 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: JoeMax23: It's implied that Lau is safe because the Chinese government is protecting him. So Batman, with the blessings of the district attorney and the police commissioner, violates Chinese sovereignty, pulls off a "Seal Team Six"-style solo raid, and kidnaps Lau back to the US.

Strangely enough, "The Dark Knight" broke box office records in China.

small part of the movie + people in china might not be all likey likey on the government. But to make their fathers and sons the bad guys in a movie might not go over as well.


The Bourne films don't feature "fathers and sons" villains either, which was the example offered, and what I was comparing it to.

The more relevant question I asked was, "How much screaming would we hear from the wingnuts in this country if a Chinese-owned film company wanted to distribute a film depicting an invasion of innocent China by the bad-guy US military, and the US military loses?" That would be an equivalent comparison.
 
2012-11-26 04:23:47 PM  
China would be much more believable than North Korea. I really don't understand why they went with North Korea of all places.
 
2012-11-26 04:24:40 PM  

downstairs: coeyagi: downstairs: coeyagi: Ok, but can you honestly state that there is a very close counter point (for U.S. audiences) where the U.S. military or government invades another country and the citizens of that country are the protagonists. Yes, I am moving the goalposts so that they mirror this movie.

Again, I am not saying there aren't, and I will shake and mea culpa if you find one just like this movie but in reverse.


Also, if set in the future, I could see it playing with American audiences just fine without much offense.  Again, I have no examples, sorry.  But I could see a movie where America turned rather evil and is now trying to take over another country.  And the goal is to get the viewer to feel for citizens of that other country.

Agreed. It typically takes the form of multinational companies lording over a dystopian future. But even if it was straight-up the American government, it could be shrugged off as a cautionary tale about the path we're on.


Also, don't forget large parts of 24, America was kinda the antagonist.  Which is why Jack Bauer often had to go rouge and all that.  Jack was the hero, and the entire American government wanted to silence him because they didn't believe him, etc. etc.  Happened on more than one season.


Happened most of the time, actually. Well, at least, there was always a mole or rogue agent in the government, it was never the entire government. Once it was the president (Charles Logan) so that was pretty stark.

But the point was scarily that it was up to one guy to stop it. Which actually makes you have less faith in the government. And torture, sweet candy cane torture. Abu Ghraib looked like Disneyland, and waterboarding was a Flume ride compared to Jack Bauer. Good times, good times. Patriot Act FTW!
 
2012-11-26 04:28:48 PM  

AutumnWind: China would be much more believable than North Korea. I really don't understand why they went with North Korea of all places.


Because it was easy to doctor a few flags and change the occasional word of dialogue. Besides, who would you use? The Russians?
 
2012-11-26 04:29:19 PM  

AutumnWind: China would be much more believable than North Korea. I really don't understand why they went with North Korea of all places.


Because they can make money from this movie in China as oppose to N. Korea?
 
2012-11-26 04:30:48 PM  

dywed88: AutumnWind: China would be much more believable than North Korea. I really don't understand why they went with North Korea of all places.

Because it was easy to doctor a few flags and change the occasional word of dialogue. Besides, who would you use? The Russians?


Mitt Romney would.
 
2012-11-26 04:31:51 PM  
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they'd kept China as the villain, we'd have articles decrying it as xenophobic jingoism tapping into American fears of Chinese economic hegemony.

The real problem is that this is a movie out of its time. The original had a villain that made some sense (if you didn't think about it too much) because that was the reality of the era. It fit the zeitgeist of the 80s. Who's worried about a military invasion of the US today? Nobody but a handful of crack pots.
 
2012-11-26 04:32:26 PM  

udhq: BalugaJoe: They should make a movie about the Obama Heathcare Program.

They already did. It was called "Soylent Green".


Cool.. I always love an HH reference.. Here is the author of that book carrying me around. Unfortunately he died this year :(

imageshack.us
 
2012-11-26 04:32:49 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Proof that Hollywood markets movies in China, you mean?


This.

I'd also accept the claim that it proves that we make imbalanced trade decisions with the chinese. We should have been using mexico for all our outsourcing, and responded to Chinese trade imbalances (limiting foreign films in their market in this example, and plenty of limiting in other ones) tit for tat.
 
2012-11-26 04:36:59 PM  
Haven't seen the remake yet .
Did they have a Senator John Kerry type telling American soldiers to quit their posts and going on about "jack boots and kickin'doors down." Because that would have been cool.

"Go Wolverines."
 
2012-11-26 04:37:33 PM  
DID EVERYONE MENTION ISRAEL YET?
 
2012-11-26 04:38:12 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: Who's worried about a military invasion of the US today? Nobody but a handful of crack pots.



Yup.  Which is why I'd never see this remake.  But the orginal... I was a kid, and remember that a Soviet invasion *was* on everyone's minds.  Maybe the fear went a bit far, in hindsight.  But you didn't have to suspend that much disbelief.
 
2012-11-26 04:38:14 PM  

coeyagi: Dances with Wolves - also, one of the protagonists was American


but he ends up going native about half way through the movie. its hard to argue he is an american by the final credits
 
2012-11-26 04:39:41 PM  
I haven't seen it yet either, but I hope they have Ramirez defending Burger Town.

gp4.pinkbike.org
 
2012-11-26 04:42:43 PM  
IIRC back in the 80s, the Soviet Union made a Rambo type action movie with the U.S. as the villain. It may be this one.
 
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