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(Washington Post)   Only Democrats support fiscal cliff diving   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 201
    More: Scary, Democrats, Patty Murray, tax cuts expire, Earned Income Tax Credit, entitlement reform, senate democrats, child tax credit  
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2606 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Nov 2012 at 8:44 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-26 07:49:41 AM  
So Republicans aren't serious about austerity after all.

Interesting.
 
2012-11-26 08:07:40 AM  
If GOP leaders hold the line on taxes this fall, and the Bush tax cuts expire despite their best efforts, it would not harm their reputation as the party of low taxes. But if Republicans vote proactively to raise taxes as part of a "grand bargain," the GOP brand would be irreparably damaged.

You idiots really have no idea what the fark is going on anymore, do you?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-26 08:27:47 AM  
Let's go over the fiscal cliff

That's what I've been saying. But does anybody listen to me? I feel like Cassandra.

Throw us over the cliff, stomp on the bloody remains. It's the only long term solution. The only tax and entitlement reform we will get will be promises for the future. Future promises in return for present inaction is what got us the cliff in the first place.  They want to build us a taller cliff.
 
2012-11-26 08:49:02 AM  
The GOP at last realizes that it has painted itself into a corner.

Maybe they can fix it with a tax cut and a new pledge to deport every non-citizen in the country.
 
2012-11-26 08:49:34 AM  

GAT_00: If GOP leaders hold the line on taxes this fall, and the Bush tax cuts expire despite their best efforts, it would not harm their reputation as the party of low taxes. But if Republicans vote proactively to raise taxes as part of a "grand bargain," the GOP brand would be irreparably damaged.

You idiots really have no idea what the fark is going on anymore, do you?


Compromising would be a death knell for the party!
 
2012-11-26 08:52:16 AM  
i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-11-26 08:52:50 AM  
I find it humorous that it always comes back to tax rates even when the entire rest of the discussion is about how horrible entitlements and spending has become.

"Spending is terrible. Medicare is ruining the country. We are not a party of tax breaks. We want to focus on more than just tax breaks for the richest among us.

....hey, let's make sure we cut taxes before doing the rest of that crap."
 
ecl
2012-11-26 08:53:29 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: GAT_00: If GOP leaders hold the line on taxes this fall, and the Bush tax cuts expire despite their best efforts, it would not harm their reputation as the party of low taxes. But if Republicans vote proactively to raise taxes as part of a "grand bargain," the GOP brand would be irreparably damaged.

You idiots really have no idea what the fark is going on anymore, do you?

Compromising would be a death knell for the party!


Rand/Palin 2016!!

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-26 08:56:04 AM  
fta Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will strengthen the GOP's hand in tax negotiations next year, (...) Going over the fiscal cliff would help the GOP in another way: It would save Republicans from having to break their pledge not to raise taxes.

HAHAHAHA! It's so funny because going over the "Fiscal Cliff" would screw over the 98% the Democrats care so much about, AND the Republicans will get to play brinksmanship politics with everybody's income and blame the Democrats for it! It's perfect! HAHAHAHAHA!
 
2012-11-26 08:56:44 AM  
Eh, it'll hurt in the short term, but in all honesty we could do with some substantial cuts to defense and in theory the whole point of Obamacare is to allow cost reduction to federal care spending by shifting the burden to a private market in the first place.

Basically, Obama's administration can deal with the cuts with the Bush tax cuts expiring to compensate for some of it, but the pork that keeps congress in the hands of the incumbent party can't.

A loss for everybody, but a minor loss for the Dems and a huge loss for the GOP. I'd cut a deal, were I them.
 
2012-11-26 08:57:06 AM  
...thus ensuring another victory for the Democrats in 2014 and 2016.

Oh, that poor chicken.
 
2012-11-26 08:57:14 AM  

vygramul: So Republicans aren't serious about austerity after all.

Interesting.


They are, they just want to take it all out of one side of the equation.
 
2012-11-26 08:58:21 AM  
I for one and totally ok with paying my share of the new (read: old) tax rates.

Bring 'em on!
 
2012-11-26 08:58:32 AM  
FTA: Letting these tax policies expire would level the playing field for Republicans in tax negotiations next year. Instead of being in a "box," Republican leaders would have leverage again - something the Democrats want and would have to make concessions to get.

This POS is basically admitting that the only thing the Republicans want is tax cuts for the rich and they couldn't care less about anyone else. The GOP is willing to hurt the 99% if the 1% doesn't get what they want.
 
2012-11-26 08:58:50 AM  

GAT_00: You idiots really have no idea what the fark is going on anymore, do you?


Sure they do.

Why do you assume he's talking about the GOP looking for a solution to the problem when it's much more likely they're doing the exact same thing they've been doing the last 12 years in every other issue: looking for whatever option benefits them the most politically.
 
2012-11-26 08:59:34 AM  
So the tea party doesn't care about deficits huh. Nice to know!
 
2012-11-26 09:00:47 AM  

ZAZ: Let's go over the fiscal cliff

That's what I've been saying. But does anybody listen to me? I feel like Cassandra.

Throw us over the cliff gentle slope, stomp on the bloody remains. It's the only long term solution. The only tax and entitlement reform we will get will be promises for the future. Future promises in return for present inaction is what got us the cliff slight incline in the first place.  They want to build us a taller cliff mound.


Among the laws set to change at midnight on December 31, 2012, are the end of last year's temporary payroll tax cuts (resulting in a 2% tax increase for workers), the end of certain tax breaks for businesses, shifts in the alternative minimum tax that would take a larger bite, the end of the tax cuts from 2001-2003, and the beginning of taxes related to President Obama's health care law. At the same time, the spending cuts agreed upon as part of the debt ceiling deal of 2011 will begin to go into effect. According to Barron's, over 1,000 government programs - including the defense budget and Medicare are in line for "deep, automatic cuts."  

I'd rather my taxes not go up, considering what I am making, but whatever. If it happens it's not the end of farking days here.

This whole "Fiscal Cliff" business sounds like the economic branch of sensationalism to go along side the foreign policy shiatshow we got over Benghazi. My prediction is that we "go over the cliff", about 6 months later people actually notice their taxes went up. Because benefits selection season was ... last month... I think most people have gone through their options wrt 2013 healthcare with Obamacare on the table. So I don't expect a huge hit there. We might see some mediscaring in the press, but overall it will look about the same on paper.

If people are mad, there will be enough of a temporal gap between Cause and Effect that they aren't sure who to be angry at specifically, and they will be malleable by the press. If the ramp up to 2014 has started by then, expect the Underdog Team to get the pass and all blame to be heaped upon the presumptive winners.

By 2015, we will have our middle class tax cuts back. The question is what the national conversation is like when that happens. Will we get our upper income tax breaks as well? Or what?
 
2012-11-26 09:01:37 AM  
My dream is that Obama cancels all talks until everything expires and then demands a tax increase on the rich in exchange for reestablishing the middle-class cuts.
 
2012-11-26 09:02:00 AM  

Notabunny: fta Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will strengthen the GOP's hand in tax negotiations next year, (...) Going over the fiscal cliff would help the GOP in another way: It would save Republicans from having to break their pledge not to raise taxes.


So essentially the GOP is betting that everyone just forgets that the only reason their taxes go up in January is that they needed to protect the tax rates of people who make over $250k a year?

And this is the part that gets me the most and should be mentioned far more often in the media....it's not raising taxes on dollar $1-250k of income its raising taxes on dollar $250,001 and up, and with all the deductions etc. it's more likely not even going to impact them until at least dollar $300k and up, probably more.

The point is, WTF are we arguing about?? This is stupid and everyone who keeps voting for these "save the rich" and isn't a part of the rich is stupid.
 
2012-11-26 09:02:45 AM  
I hope that democrats stick to their guns on some of the stupid demand the GOP makes. We can't afford to keep taxes so low. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a huge tax. Aren't we at a point where people should pay a flat tax and be done with it?
 
2012-11-26 09:03:12 AM  
pwnwear.com
 
2012-11-26 09:04:12 AM  

bobug: I hope that democrats stick to their guns on some of the stupid demand the GOP makes. We can't afford to keep taxes so low. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a huge tax. Aren't we at a point where people should pay a flat tax and be done with it?


A flat tax is hugely regressive, and one of the best things that could happen to rich people.
 
2012-11-26 09:04:55 AM  

bobug: Aren't we at a point where people should pay a flat tax and be done with it?


No, and we never will be.
 
2012-11-26 09:05:12 AM  
It would save Republicans from having to break their pledge not to raise taxes.

IMO this is why we're going to go over the cliff. Half the government are a bunch of cravens who are too terrorified to break a promise made to a 12 year old. This way we go over the cliff and then a few weeks later they get to vote for tax cuts.

And the US credit rating may take another knock as it'll look like the US is unable to maintain a stable fiscal policy.

Thankfully these dipshiats aren't (cuddently) trying to cause a default on debt payments.
 
2012-11-26 09:05:18 AM  

Notabunny: fta Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will strengthen the GOP's hand in tax negotiations next year, (...) Going over the fiscal cliff would help the GOP in another way: It would save Republicans from having to break their pledge not to raise taxes.

HAHAHAHA! It's so funny because going over the "Fiscal Cliff" would screw over the 98% the Democrats care so much about, AND the Republicans will get to play brinksmanship politics with everybody's income and blame the Democrats for it! It's perfect! HAHAHAHAHA!


The problem with that is that it is common knowledge that Obama has already wanted to keep the Bush Tax Cuts for those making under $250,000, and the Republicans have renegged on it. In every news outlet outside of that misinformation bubble you snorkel in, it will be the GOP's that taxes were raised, all to protect the "Job Creators" of the 1%.

But please, proceed.
 
2012-11-26 09:07:10 AM  

Wessoman: Notabunny: fta Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will strengthen the GOP's hand in tax negotiations next year, (...) Going over the fiscal cliff would help the GOP in another way: It would save Republicans from having to break their pledge not to raise taxes.

HAHAHAHA! It's so funny because going over the "Fiscal Cliff" would screw over the 98% the Democrats care so much about, AND the Republicans will get to play brinksmanship politics with everybody's income and blame the Democrats for it! It's perfect! HAHAHAHAHA!

The problem with that is that it is common knowledge that Obama has already wanted to keep the Bush Tax Cuts for those making under $250,000, and the Republicans have renegged on it. In every news outlet outside of that misinformation bubble you snorkel in, it will be the GOP's that taxes were raised, all to protect the "Job Creators" of the 1%.

But please, proceed.


*GOP's "Fault". But yeah, you got the gist.
 
2012-11-26 09:07:58 AM  

dorko16: bobug: I hope that democrats stick to their guns on some of the stupid demand the GOP makes. We can't afford to keep taxes so low. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a huge tax. Aren't we at a point where people should pay a flat tax and be done with it?

A flat tax is hugely regressive, and one of the best things that could happen to rich people.



Ok I don't know what to call this but isn't the easiest thing to solve most of our problems this:

1. Progressive tax on income
2. No more deductions, what you make is what you are taxed (well, perhaps deductions still for other taxes you pay, real estate, local etc. but that's it)
3. No more caps on SS tax etc.

Now it's down to just setting the rates accordingly for the lack of deductions. This would also eliminate a ton of paperwork.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-26 09:08:24 AM  
BeesNuts

It's not only a 2% tax increase, it's a rollback of military spending to levels not seen since the last decade.
 
2012-11-26 09:08:31 AM  

Wessoman:

But please, proceed.


I gave Obama a lot of shiat during the debt ceiling deal because I thought he caved completely. In reality he actually was playing 8 dimension chess.
 
2012-11-26 09:08:41 AM  
This is great advice -- for the Democrats!

If Dems stick to their guns, and demand tax increases for income above $250k, and the GOP refuses to budge, look what happens:

- Significant cuts to defense spending
- Taxes back to Clinton era (still very low on top earners, but better than before).

The Dems should immediately follow that up with bills in house and senate to cut tax rates again for income below $250k, and to restore popular non-defense spending, especially unemployment benefits that will help the newly laid-off defense industry workers.

If the GOP votes against them, they will be rightfully accused of voting against helping their groups of their own supporters in need.

If the GOP votes for them, then their Tea Party "base" will be further marginalized, and we'll have a real opposition party again rather than a mindless bunch of zombies droning "no taxes ever".
 
2012-11-26 09:12:13 AM  

ghall3: dorko16: bobug: I hope that democrats stick to their guns on some of the stupid demand the GOP makes. We can't afford to keep taxes so low. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a huge tax. Aren't we at a point where people should pay a flat tax and be done with it?

A flat tax is hugely regressive, and one of the best things that could happen to rich people.


Ok I don't know what to call this but isn't the easiest thing to solve most of our problems this:

1. Progressive tax on income
2. No more deductions, what you make is what you are taxed (well, perhaps deductions still for other taxes you pay, real estate, local etc. but that's it)
3. No more caps on SS tax etc.

Now it's down to just setting the rates accordingly for the lack of deductions. This would also eliminate a ton of paperwork.


I think the mortgage interest deduction is important, up to a point, if we as a society want to encourage home ownership. (Which I think we should, but that's another discussion entirely.)

I'd definitely eliminate the SS and medicare caps, but I would expand the credit on the first $X of income.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-26 09:12:56 AM  
No more deductions, what you make is what you are taxed

That works for ordinary wages, and I support it. It fails for many people who are in business for themselves, doing contracting, etc. Unless you switch to a VAT model, your tax system needs deductions for business expenses. Business expense deductions are a big source of "loopholes."

We had a link or two about the California pot dispensaries that were zapped by the IRS because expenses are not deductible for businesses selling illegal drugs. That meant the business owed ~30% federal income tax on gross receipts, not net profits.  One such business was not incorporated, so the person running it owed tax at the maximum personal income tax rate.
 
2012-11-26 09:13:21 AM  
All I can think of is how all of this was the GOP/Teabagger idea in the first place.

The Bush tax cuts should have been rolled back already.
The debt ceiling should never have been held hostage.
The super secret ultra special committee never should have been created.
The sequester element never have even made it to the POTUS's desk.

But no. And now, here we are.
And come 2014, I pray the Dems are able to pin this mess on the GOP, and run on reinstating the lower/middle income tax breaks and benefits alongside a healthy dose of 'eat the rich'.
 
2012-11-26 09:13:40 AM  
I'd rather see the fiscal cliff than the "F*ck the poor! F*ck the sick! F*ck everyone!" plan that the gop is proposing, as if Romney won the election.
 
2012-11-26 09:14:28 AM  
I think it is time to go into the strategy behind the tax cut strategy by the GOP.

It's not as simple (and stupid) as "Hur, hur, tax cuts for the rich!".
 
2012-11-26 09:14:46 AM  
The 10 percent income tax bracket would disappear, so the lowest tax rate would be 15 percent.

wow, that is a big jump.. can you imagine the gigantic temper tantrum that would be thrown if you tried to raise capital gains taxes by 5%... hell .5%

The employee share of the Social Security payroll tax would rise from 4.2 percent to 6.2 percent.

Taxed Enough Already!!! right guys??? *crickets*
 
2012-11-26 09:16:09 AM  
I am ok with the cliff. My taxes would go up a bit, but that's ok, so long as it's part of a bigger deficit reduction package.

I also support means testing social security.
I also support getting raising caps on SS/Medicare
I also support making the cap gains tax equal to the payroll tax
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-26 09:16:12 AM  
I'd definitely eliminate the SS and medicare caps

Then abolish those taxes entirely. They are limited because each is supposed to pay for the cost of providing a service which has limited value. If the taxes are indistinguishable from general income tax they should be part of general income tax.
 
2012-11-26 09:16:38 AM  

dorko16: think the mortgage interest deduction is important, up to a point, if we as a society want to encourage home ownership. (Which I think we should, but that's another discussion entirely.)

I'd definitely eliminate the SS and medicare caps, but I would expand the credit on the first $X of income.


There are definitely lots of fine points to work out, but in a nutshell that seems to be all that needs to be done, those 3 things, work out the little details and we are done.

Or at least a heck of a lot closer to making the system fair and workable long term
 
2012-11-26 09:18:41 AM  
I can already see we're going to go once again in to the Republicans offering 15 out of 16 different deals and the Democrats offering 1 out of 16 then howling that the Republicans are "holding the country hostage"
 
2012-11-26 09:19:07 AM  

TV's Vinnie: I'd rather see the fiscal cliff than the "F*ck the poor! F*ck the sick! F*ck everyone!" plan that the gop is proposing, as if Romney won the election.


Pretty much this.

Republicans seem to think they have a winning hand in this poker game. They don't. At this point, all they can do is decide how much they want to lose by.
 
2012-11-26 09:21:32 AM  

randomjsa: I can already see we're going to go once again in to the Republicans offering 15 out of 16 different deals and the Democrats offering 1 out of 16 then howling that the Republicans are "holding the country hostage"


and the lamestream-driveby-liebral-media-conspiracy is keeping these sheeple from knowing the truth, good thing we had that Romney landslide to use as evidence of their accuracy in reporting.
 
2012-11-26 09:21:40 AM  
fark let's go over the cliff,taxes go up and massive cuts to the defense budget.
 
2012-11-26 09:21:41 AM  

TV's Vinnie: I'd rather see the fiscal cliff than the "F*ck the poor! F*ck the sick! F*ck everyone!" plan that the gop is proposing, as if Romney won the election.


This. The GOP is literally acting like they won the Presidential election.
 
2012-11-26 09:22:08 AM  

ghall3: The point is, WTF are we arguing about?? This is stupid and everyone who keeps voting for these "save the rich" and isn't a part of the rich is stupid.


These people?
 
2012-11-26 09:22:55 AM  

dorko16: My dream is that Obama cancels all talks until everything expires and then demands a tax increase on the rich in exchange for reestablishing the middle-class cuts keeping medicare intact.


he already said he wants to keep the taxes for the middle class low. including extending the payroll cut.
 
2012-11-26 09:23:27 AM  

ZAZ: No more deductions, what you make is what you are taxed

That works for ordinary wages, and I support it. It fails for many people who are in business for themselves, doing contracting, etc. Unless you switch to a VAT model, your tax system needs deductions for business expenses. Business expense deductions are a big source of "loopholes."

We had a link or two about the California pot dispensaries that were zapped by the IRS because expenses are not deductible for businesses selling illegal drugs. That meant the business owed ~30% federal income tax on gross receipts, not net profits.  One such business was not incorporated, so the person running it owed tax at the maximum personal income tax rate.


Everyone must be willing to make deep sacrifices for the blessed Job Creators. Especially the poor and middle class. They must not only have skin in the game, but a full pound of flesh.
 
2012-11-26 09:23:32 AM  

ecl:

Rand/Palin 2016!!


Why not just run Howdy Doody and a RealDoll. You get the same effect.
 
2012-11-26 09:25:53 AM  
If everyone's taxes go up, based on a fiscal cliff the GOP voted to create, voters are going to hold them responsible for it. No one gives a crap about tax pledges, but they will care about having smaller paychecks to service a debt that doesn't need so much austerity right now.
 
2012-11-26 09:26:05 AM  
Marc Thiessen, conservative writer for the Washington Post: Let's go over the fiscal cliff! Today, the only ones in Washington who advocate fiscal cliff-diving are liberal Democrats.

Is there any limit to the amount of self-contradictory nonsense a person can write? Is there like a Chandrashekar limit where any higher concentration of derp results in a person just straight up implodes?
 
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