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(NFL)   Baltimore Ravens Rice to the occasion on 4th & 29, while San Diego notches another come-from-ahead loss   (nfl.com) divider line 85
    More: Unlikely, Baltimore Ravens Rice, Baltimore Ravens, San Diego, Chargers  
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1328 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Nov 2012 at 8:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-26 12:39:50 PM

Harv72b: Did I miss any scenarios?


The one where he throws it short on a 4th down play and, like should have happened, he gets stopped, he's an idiot for throwing a pass with virtually zero chance to gain a first down.

The deep passes all had better odds of making it, especially if you factor in potential penalties (almost all of which would be likely to have to occur for Rice to get there - fortunately the refs just ignored the blocks in the back, while a deeper pass is more likely to incur a pass interference, hold, or illegal contact on the defense, all of which result in automatic first downs).

But yes, because he got lucky with a stupid play means it was the right decision. Just like, say, throwing a slant with 3 seconds left in a game from the 50 is a smart play "because he's open."
 
2012-11-26 12:44:02 PM

IAmRight: Um no, it was a stupid decision by Flacco that he got bailed out on by Rice and by San Diego's desperate attempts to get Norv fired that the front office keeps ignoring. But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB.


I'm curious as to what your NFL QB ratings are overall.

Peyton
Brady
Brees
Eli
Rodgers
Ryan
Griffin
Stafford
Schaub
Flacco
Cutler
Rivers
Dalton
Newton
Romo
Smith/Kappernick
Luck
Tannehill
Wilson
Ponder
Freeman
Palmer
Bradford
Locker
Weeden
Fitzpatrick
Lindley
Quinn
Henne
Sanchez
Batch
Foles

Does that look about right?
This does not match my personal rankings, but I'm trying to guess around where you believe Flacco would fall for you to say "But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB".

Maybe you have him more around the Henne, Sanchez, Batch level?
 
2012-11-26 12:50:48 PM

Harv72b: facisto: Asking your RB to successfully make a 28 yard run after a 1-yard dump-off seems far less likely than asking Anquan Boldin or Torrey Smith to make a play in coverage. It was a bad decision vindicated by the most improbable and awesome runs after catches in recent history. Rice is a monster and he is clutch. Flacco threw up the white flag.

IAmRight: Um no, it was a stupid decision by Flacco that he got bailed out on by Rice and by San Diego's desperate attempts to get Norv fired that the front office keeps ignoring. But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB.

I get it. If Flacco throws into double- or triple-coverage and the ball is batted away or deflected then he choked with the game on the line. If Boldin or Torrey Smith goes up over two defensive backs and makes in improbable catch, Flacco was an idiot for throwing it and got bailed out by his receiver. If he dumps it off to a wide-open receiver who is arguably the best open-field runner on the team and gets the first down, it was a stupid decision. Did I miss any scenarios?


Yes, a pass interference penalty on a deep throw, which is probably the most probable positive play for the Ravens and another reason Flacco shouldn't have dumped it off. Pass interference on 4th and 29, you ask? Well of course, it's ridiculously unlikely. But picking up the first on 4th and 29 is ridiculously unlikely no matter what the QB does. Picking up the first on a deep throw is somewhat less unlikely than converting the way they actually did.

You don't really believe anyone would think missing on a 4th and 29 throw = choking with the game on the line, do you?
 
2012-11-26 12:52:00 PM

degenerate-afro: Does that look about right?
This does not match my personal rankings, but I'm trying to guess around where you believe Flacco would fall for you to say "But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB".


Well, given the lack of a track record for a lot of QBs, it's tough to say. I don't think I'd have Flacco in my top 10. But I can't really justifiably put people I want to put ahead of him yet. Also, I'd have Newton way lower. Freeman probably higher. Waiting for some more performances, but think Luck and Wilson will be ahead of Flacco soon. Would probably put him somewhere near Romo but probably give him the edge due to the team around him, which is kinda unfair to Romo, but such is life.

I suppose I should probably say he qualifies as good if by good we accept "a bit above average". He's certainly not near as good as he thinks he is.
 
2012-11-26 12:57:07 PM

degenerate-afro: This does not match my personal rankings, but I'm trying to guess around where you believe Flacco would fall for you to say "But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB".

Maybe you have him more around the Henne, Sanchez, Batch level?


Freeman needs to be much farther up on that list.

/Flacco's an ok QB. Not too great, not too bad
 
2012-11-26 12:58:54 PM

IAmRight: The deep passes all had better odds of making it, especially if you factor in potential penalties (almost all of which would be likely to have to occur for Rice to get there - fortunately the refs just ignored the blocks in the back, while a deeper pass is more likely to incur a pass interference, hold, or illegal contact on the defense, all of which result in automatic first downs).


The refs weren't calling anything on that last drive, save for the phantom hold against Yanda which backed Baltimore up into that situation in the first place. So throwing it deep and counting on a DPI or defensive holding is wishful thinking at best and just gets him a heap of criticism from people who can't accept that Flacco can ever make the right throw at the right time, even if they do somehow get the call. I have yet to see a single illegal block on that play, let alone more than one, by the way.

Face it: Flacco took the play that was open and it worked. Heaving up what would essentially have been a hail mary was not the right play. Getting the ball into the hands of your top playmaker is. This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking 101 stuff, and I'm shocked that even you would be so obstinate to deny it.
 
2012-11-26 01:01:55 PM

keypusher: You don't really believe anyone would think missing on a 4th and 29 throw = choking with the game on the line, do you?


Of course not. But I'm talking to the same people who thought Flacco choked in the AFC Championship game when he hit Lee Evans right in the hands with what would have been the game-winning touchdown.

Joe could go 30 for 30, 500 yards and 12 touchdowns in a game and there would be people attacking him for not throwing the ball away to avoid a first-quarter sack.
 
2012-11-26 01:04:30 PM

FreakinB: /Flacco's an ok QB. Not too great, not too bad


For whatever reason, this year his thing is winning on the road. He can (as he proved yesterday), but he just looks damned awful doing it. He doesn't make half his mistakes at home that he does on the road. But it is also very obvious that with that defense, anyone can look good. It's not something that an elite quarterback has a problem with.
 
2012-11-26 01:07:09 PM

Harv72b: If Flacco throws into double- or triple-coverage and the ball is batted away or deflected then he choked with the game on the line. If Boldin or Torrey Smith goes up over two defensive backs and makes in improbable catch, Flacco was an idiot for throwing it and got bailed out by his receiver. If he dumps it off to a wide-open receiver who is arguably the best open-field runner on the team and gets the first down, it was a stupid decision. Did I miss any scenarios?


Remember, they were playing the Chargers. If we had a time machine and a way to watch every possible scenario unfold I think 100% of the time the Chargers would blow it. We just happened to be in the universe where a dump off goes for 30 yards instead of the universe where Flacco heaves up a Hail Mary that gets tipped by a DB, caught by a Raven and taken in for a touchdown, or the universe where Flacco decides to pooch punt and the ball bounces off Norv's head (while he is standing on the field trying to get on the Jumbotron) and the ball is returned for a TD by the Ravens.
 
2012-11-26 01:11:03 PM

FriarReb98: But it is also very obvious that with that defense, anyone can look good.


Baltimore's defense is ranked 24th in the league. They are 26th against the rush and 23rd against the pass.
 
2012-11-26 01:13:47 PM

IAmRight: degenerate-afro: Does that look about right?
This does not match my personal rankings, but I'm trying to guess around where you believe Flacco would fall for you to say "But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB".

I don't think I'd have Flacco in my top 10.


You don't have to list them all, but give me up to the point you think Flacco is ranked. You can even skip the obvious 2 of Peyton, Brady, and Brees if you want to.
 
2012-11-26 01:14:25 PM

degenerate-afro: IAmRight: degenerate-afro: Does that look about right?
This does not match my personal rankings, but I'm trying to guess around where you believe Flacco would fall for you to say "But keep thinking Flacco's a good QB".

I don't think I'd have Flacco in my top 10.

You don't have to list them all, but give me up to the point you think Flacco is ranked. You can even skip the obvious 3 of Peyton, Brady, and Brees if you want to.


FTFM
 
2012-11-26 01:35:55 PM

degenerate-afro: You don't have to list them all, but give me up to the point you think Flacco is ranked. You can even skip the obvious 2 of Peyton, Brady, and Brees if you want to.


Like I said, I don't really have a ranking of 'em...I guess Flacco can be in the amorphous blob of about 10 guys behind the first group of Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning x 2.

I'm a lot more excited about Luck, Griffin, Wilson, and Kaepernick's futures, however. Ryan I'd have above him for sure but I'd like to see something in the postseason from him. Romo, Stafford, etc...I dunno, they put up pretty decent numbers and might be better QBs, but they don't have run games and they don't have teams that are as good.
 
2012-11-26 01:37:22 PM
No one snatches defeat from the jaws of victory like the San Diego Chokers.
 
2012-11-26 01:56:14 PM

tommyl66: Remember, they were playing the Chargers. If we had a time machine and a way to watch every possible scenario unfold I think 100% of the time the Chargers would blow it. We just happened to be in the universe where a dump off goes for 30 yards instead of the universe where Flacco heaves up a Hail Mary that gets tipped by a DB, caught by a Raven and taken in for a touchdown, or the universe where Flacco decides to pooch punt and the ball bounces off Norv's head (while he is standing on the field trying to get on the Jumbotron) and the ball is returned for a TD by the Ravens.


There are precious few posts which truly deserve both the "Smart" and "Funny" buttons. This was one of them. :)
 
2012-11-26 02:08:03 PM

macdaddy357: No one snatches defeat from the jaws of victory like the San Diego Chokers.


this is why i love football season. between the lions and the chargers, you know the LOLs are coming fast and furious. What a great week of football entertainment week 12 was. my favorite was still the sprinklers in miami, tho.
 
2012-11-26 02:14:05 PM

macdaddy357: No one snatches defeat from the jaws of victory like the San Diego Chokers.


At least they have a farking lead to blow. It could be worse. They could be the Chiefs or Raiders.
 
2012-11-26 02:20:15 PM

degenerate-afro: Does that look about right?


As a Ravens fan: Flacco is not a top 10 QB. I'm not sure how you can say he is. He's very inefficient, he has trouble making quick decisions, he often fails to check down when the long bomb isn't there. As a result he gets sacked a lot and his first down percentage is 26th in the league.

When he does manage to make a good decision and find an open guy he's great. He has a low number of interceptions and he is ranked in the top 10 for total yards as well as 3rd for both most completions over 20 and 40 yards. But he only has 14 TDs. What does that tell you? He can chuck the long ball, but the finesse game baffles him.

The fact is, Joe Flacco is most similar stat-wise to Carson Palmer. And in most cases, Carson Palmer has a slight edge. In your ranking you have Palmer 22nd. Why is that?
 
2012-11-26 02:20:47 PM

degenerate-afro: FriarReb98: But it is also very obvious that with that defense, anyone can look good.

Baltimore's defense is ranked 24th in the league. They are 26th against the rush and 23rd against the pass.


...and he doesn't look as good this year as he has in the past, does he?
 
2012-11-26 02:27:00 PM

Harv72b: IAmRight: The deep passes all had better odds of making it, especially if you factor in potential penalties (almost all of which would be likely to have to occur for Rice to get there - fortunately the refs just ignored the blocks in the back, while a deeper pass is more likely to incur a pass interference, hold, or illegal contact on the defense, all of which result in automatic first downs).

The refs weren't calling anything on that last drive, save for the phantom hold against Yanda which backed Baltimore up into that situation in the first place. So throwing it deep and counting on a DPI or defensive holding is wishful thinking at best and just gets him a heap of criticism from people who can't accept that Flacco can ever make the right throw at the right time, even if they do somehow get the call. I have yet to see a single illegal block on that play, let alone more than one, by the way.

Face it: Flacco took the play that was open and it worked. Heaving up what would essentially have been a hail mary was not the right play. Getting the ball into the hands of your top playmaker is. This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking 101 stuff, and I'm shocked that even you would be so obstinate to deny it.


When I saw the first replay, I thought it was a designed RB screen. All 4 receivers went deep, 40+ yards and all of linbackers/db's went with them. When Rice caught the ball, there was no one within 30 yards of him.

One cutback/missed tackle, and 1 block and it was a 30 yard gain.
 
2012-11-26 02:30:54 PM

Broktun: When I saw the first replay, I thought it was a designed RB screen. All 4 receivers went deep, 40+ yards and all of linbackers/db's went with them. When Rice caught the ball, there was no one within 30 yards of him.


But all the defenders have to do is be competent and try and they've got him stopped well before he gets to the first down. It's like getting a punt return that you have to take to the house at that point - they don't have to have someone on you as you're catching the ball, they just have to stay in their area and make a tackle, and they'll get him well before he ever gets the first down. 20 yards doesn't matter on that play.
 
2012-11-26 02:42:46 PM

Kornchex: macdaddy357: No one snatches defeat from the jaws of victory like the San Diego Chokers.

At least they have a farking lead to blow. It could be worse. They could be the Chiefs or Raiders.


The AFC west sucks out loud. Only one franchise is decent at the moment, and only after bottoming out with Tebow/McDaniels.

Raiders) dysfunctional with mostly old or injury-prone personnel, constant coaching turnover, and incompetent ownership
Chiefs) dysfunctional with mostly old or just bad personnel, poor coaching, and skinflint ownership/management
Chargers) dysfunctional with mostly good personnel, atrocious coaching, and skinflint ownership/management
Broncos) semi-competent with good personnel (after dropping Tebow), better-than-average coaching (after jettisoning McDaniels), and decent ownership

Way to set the world on fire, guys.
 
2012-11-26 02:50:07 PM

WinoRhino: As a Ravens fan: Flacco is not a top 10 QB.


I would put Flacco around the same level as a Matt Ryan or Matthew Stafford. Yes, both those guys tend to outperform him statistically on a year-by-year basis, but all three have the same problems with consistency and each fan base is still waiting to see their respective quarterback step up to the next level. If you put both Mannings, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and (arguably) Schaub above them, that makes Flacco a borderline top 10 if you discount the rookies. If you consider the performance so far & the upside that Andrew Luck & Robert Griffin III both possess, then Flacco probably drops out of the top 10.

Still, the fact of the matter is that Joe Flacco has been pretty much exactly the quarterback that the Baltimore Ravens have needed. Barring a total collapse down the stretch, this will mark 5 playoff appearances in his 5 seasons in the league...while you can certainly argue that Flacco didn't win the majority of those games, he didn't lose them either. And he has shown numerous times over his young career that he's capable of leading the big drive to close out a game. As a Ravens fan, you also have to admit that he's easily the best quarterback we've had thus far.
 
2012-11-26 04:07:49 PM

degenerate-afro: FriarReb98: But it is also very obvious that with that defense, anyone can look good.

Baltimore's defense is ranked 24th in the league. They are 26th against the rush and 23rd against the pass.


Red Zone defense is #1 in the league, I could care less about the yardage they give up, it's the points that count. 

Link
 
2012-11-26 04:21:07 PM

degenerate-afro: FriarReb98: But it is also very obvious that with that defense, anyone can look good.

Baltimore's defense is ranked 24th in the league. They are 26th against the rush and 23rd against the pass.


That should speak volumes as to how bad the Chargers' O line is.
 
2012-11-26 05:17:14 PM
Flacco is hampered by a deep ball offense (Thanks Cam) without an offensive line to support it. You can call it what you want, but our Offensive Line didn't all of a sudden play lights-out in the 4th Quarter, we just switched to throwing more short/medium routes instead of shooting for the moon each time. It's farking AMAZING how that works. Matt Birk is on his last leg, and it's tough for a deep ball passer to make a deep ball pass if his C is in his lap damn near every play.

Flacco is an enigma. Since he's been in the league he's got an insane win percentage, a record setting number of visits to the playoffs, and no SB Ring (or appearance). For his first four seasons, everyone screamed "Flacco sucks, it's his D that carries him". This season when the D sucks, it's "The D Sucks, but the Red Zone D is #1".

Flacco's a baller. Whatever you want to say about him the dude does what it takes to win. The guy is money when his back is to the wall. Is he top 10? No, but he's on the cusp. If he was just 75% as good on the road is he is at home, he'd easily be a top 10 QB.
 
2012-11-26 05:46:14 PM
I think we can all admit Joe is not the best QB in football, but there's only a handful of guys I'd replace him with:
Brady, Brees, Rogers, Manning(either), Roethlisberger, and Ryan. Shaub is a toss up.
 
2012-11-26 06:03:55 PM

WinoRhino: The fact is, Joe Flacco is most similar stat-wise to Carson Palmer. And in most cases, Carson Palmer has a slight edge. In your ranking you have Palmer 22nd. Why is that?


I see lots of complaining about a list that I stated was not my actual ranking, but I don't see your offering up your own list.

As for Flacco vs. Palmer.
Flacco 7 INT
Palmer 12 INT
Flacco 1 Fum Lost
Palmer 4 Fum Lost

Flacco protects the football much better than Palmer does.

I think you would be surprised by what my actual list would be (Eli and Cutler are lower and Schaub and Stafford are higher for example).

I was mainly trying to take a guess at where others would have certain people ranked based off of the amount of hype they receive on the forums. You very rarely hear anything about Palmer on the forums. I'd certainly rate Palmer above Luck (the 1:1 TD to INT ratio kills the Luck for me), but that's not what I was going for with those rankings.

Heck, I would even rate Mr. Butt-Fumble above Lindley and Cpt. Courageous.
 
2012-11-26 06:09:25 PM

degenerate-afro: I see a lot of complaining about a list that I stated was not my actual ranking, but I don't see you offering up your own list.

As for Flacco vs. Palmer.
Flacco 7 INT
Palmer 12 INT
Flacco 1 Fum Lost
Palmer 4 Fum Lost

Flacco protects the football much better than Palmer does.

I think you would be surprised by my actual list (Eli and Cutler are lower. Schaub and Stafford are higher for example).

I was mainly trying to guess where others would rank certain people based on the amount of hype they receive. You rarely hear anything about Palmer here. I would certainly rate Palmer higher than Luck (the 1:1 TD to INT ratio kills it for me), but that's not what I was going for with those rankings.

Heck, I would even rate Mr. Butt-Fumble above Lindley and Cpt. Courageous.


Fixed this to somewhat resemble the English language. Doing work and typing on the forums at the same time is not my forte.
 
2012-11-26 06:12:19 PM
WinoRhino: As a Ravens fan: Flacco is not a top 10 QB.

Climb back in your bottle, fool !

All Flacco has done is take the team to the playoffs every year he's been here. He's led the team to a 9-2 record that should be 10-1 ( if our ancient defense could've made a stop in Philly). He's the reason we're not a .500 team this year. His arm has carried this team several times this season.

My problem is with the offensive play calling. How can it make sense to hand the ball off 2 to 3 yards deep when it's 4th and inches. Your QB is 6'6"; bring the team to the line, have 'em go on first sound, and he falls forward for a first down. The complexion of the whole game might have changed. Unitas must've been rolling in his grave over that call !

Cam Cameron's problem is that everything's got to be complicated and a potential deep play. He just doesn't know how to run a simple play.
 
2012-11-26 06:25:49 PM

shanteyman: All Flacco has done is take the team to the playoffs every year he's been here. He's led the team to a 9-2 record that should be 10-1 ( if our ancient defense could've made a stop in Philly)


The defense wasn't even the problem in Philly. The play calling on third and short was atrocious. Hav will probably remember but there were at least four 3rd and 2 plays where instead of running Rice, they threw a 15 yard out rout. The exact same route every single time they were in 3rd and short. It was mind boggling. I believe the thing that was said to me at the time was "if you are going to revamp an offense, you might as well commit to it", but I'll be damned if running the same play that failed three times prior again is good play calling.

Actually, I just looked it up. The third quarter:
3rd and 2 at BAL 47 Shotgun pass to Pitta - INT
3rd and 2 at BAL 28 Shotgun pass to Dickson - Incomplete
3rd and 1 at 50 Shotgun pass to Boldin - Incomplete

The Fourth quarter:
3rd and 1 at BAL 46 Shotgun pass to Rice - Incomplete

That was the last drive of the game.
 
2012-11-26 07:04:49 PM

degenerate-afro: The play calling on third and short was atrocious.


I really do think that anything short of a Super Bowl Championship will lead to Cameron being fired. Or maybe we'll get lucky and some team will hire him away as a head coach (as if).
 
2012-11-26 09:16:18 PM
Which is higher? The number of leads blown by Norv Turner as a head coach in the NFL or the number of acne scars on his face?
 
2012-11-26 09:51:49 PM

John Buck 41: Which is higher? The number of leads blown by Norv Turner as a head coach in the NFL or the number of acne scars on his face?


Sadly I just realized he's just setting us all up. He's going to win out the rest of the games, then if Pitts and Cincy both lose one more. Bam. He's in the playoffs, and will get his first Super Bowl as the sixth seed.

/wish i were serious
//really, that's still a viable playoff scenario
///other Chargers opponents: The Jest, the Cam Newton Show, and the Raiders.
 
2012-11-26 11:52:48 PM

degenerate-afro: The defense wasn't even the problem in Philly. The play calling on third and short was atrocious. Hav will probably remember but there were at least four 3rd and 2 plays where instead of running Rice, they threw a 15 yard out rout. The exact same route every single time they were in 3rd and short. It was mind boggling. I believe the thing that was said to me at the time was "if you are going to revamp an offense, you might as well commit to it", but I'll be damned if running the same play that failed three times prior again is good play calling.


Well, the answer to that is easy. The Ravens coaching grabbed Andy Reid's playbook by mistake, and never realized it.
 
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