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(NBC News)   New black Friday deal: shoplift 2 DVD players from Walmart, get a free trip to the morgue   (usnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 278
    More: Scary, Wal-Mart, DVD, Lithonia, gas explosion  
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15873 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Nov 2012 at 12:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-25 08:38:42 PM  
Those guys, and their bosses, and some of their bosses bosses, are probably gonna get fired.
 
2012-11-25 08:50:37 PM  

Asa Phelps: Those guys, and their bosses, and some of their bosses bosses, are probably gonna get fired.


Fix'd.
 
2012-11-25 08:54:09 PM  
They steal your dvd players, you send one of theirs to the morgue. It's the Walmart way.
 
2012-11-25 09:09:43 PM  
seriously though. my sister was working in loss prevention for a major retailer ages ago. Was being groomed to take over the apartment. And then some thug at another store puts a shoplifter in the hospital over a few DVDs and it turns out he has priors. Corporate cleaned house. All new management for the entire region.
 
2012-11-25 09:10:41 PM  
While I agree with those that say these people should be fired, I'd like to point out this didnt happen on Black Friday. It happened today.
 
2012-11-25 09:11:04 PM  
department. what the hell has happened when i can spell correctly but it's the wrong words?
 
2012-11-25 09:50:57 PM  
This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.
 
2012-11-25 10:38:11 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.


Or an episode of SVU where they find out he was shoplifting them to entertain a fleet of teenage prostitutes, and at some point Ice T asks "What kind of sick bastard...?" The whole department is always surprised when it turns out to be some weird sex crime, even though presumably they're aware they work in SVU, where the crimes are promised to be particularly heinous.
 
2012-11-26 12:08:37 AM  
Good, we need fewer Wal-Mart frequenters.
 
2012-11-26 12:08:37 AM  
what else would expect being caught stealing? and everyone blames walmart? sounds like he wasn't in the best of health to begin with.
 
2012-11-26 12:12:04 AM  

CreamFilling: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.

Or an episode of SVU where they find out he was shoplifting them to entertain a fleet of teenage prostitutes, and at some point Ice T asks "What kind of sick bastard...?" The whole department is always surprised when it turns out to be some weird sex crime, even though presumably they're aware they work in SVU, where the crimes are promised to be particularly heinous.


I assume we have both scene the same stand up bit by.... Nick mullaney I think? Great stuff
 
2012-11-26 12:12:28 AM  
As a APA I'm getting a kick... 
Seriously though, the entire training process is about hands off, non physical contact.
These guys better have one amazingly good story, or getting fired is the least of their concerns.
 
2012-11-26 12:13:16 AM  
If the guys larynx was crushed, maybe the choke hold was a little tight.
or did they sit on the guy a little hard and put a rib through a lung?
can't wait for the autopsy!
 
2012-11-26 12:13:34 AM  

CreamFilling: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.

Or an episode of SVU where they find out he was shoplifting them to entertain a fleet of teenage prostitutes, and at some point Ice T asks "What kind of sick bastard...?" The whole department is always surprised when it turns out to be some weird sex crime, even though presumably they're aware they work in SVU, where the crimes are promised to be particularly heinous.


Hopefully Ice-T would let us in on some hip street phrase that all too soon would become over-used in suburbia. Within a few months even the nerds on The Big Bang Theory are dropping it on air, and by then Ice-T is well on to a whole other groove.
 
182
2012-11-26 12:15:48 AM  

revrendjim: They steal your dvd players, you send one of theirs to the morgue. It's the Walmart way.


yeah, he deserved to die and I hope he burns in hell!
 
2012-11-26 12:17:31 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

Especially not two DVD players. What are they these days, $20?
 
2012-11-26 12:17:50 AM  
Killer deals on Black Friday.
Think I'll send the Ex next year.
 
2012-11-26 12:17:57 AM  
Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?
 
2012-11-26 12:18:08 AM  
FTFA: both employees had been placed on paid leave.

Sweet, free vacation too.
 
2012-11-26 12:18:32 AM  

CreamFilling: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.

Or an episode of SVU where they find out he was shoplifting them to entertain a fleet of teenage prostitutes, and at some point Ice T asks "What kind of sick bastard...?" The whole department is always surprised when it turns out to be some weird sex crime, even though presumably they're aware they work in SVU, where the crimes are promised to be particularly heinous.


I like how they're always shocked when the ADA explains they don't have enough evidence to charge the suspect. Apparently "This guy is going to be back out on the street!" spoken in an indignant tone doesn't count as evidence? This stupid country....
 
2012-11-26 12:18:33 AM  
He walked right through the door. Walked right through the door.Hey all right! If he gets by, it's his. His all his!

LET'S GO!
 
2012-11-26 12:21:16 AM  
I think he should have had a trial before he died.

Best Buy security rushed to see that I didn't shoplift something. They asked me to empty all of my pockets for them because I reached for my iphone once I was in the parking lot. I complied because I'm nice. But I wouldn't say their methods are flawless.
 
2012-11-26 12:22:40 AM  
If only there were some way to not steal DVD players from Walmart.

None of us are safe.
 
2012-11-26 12:23:27 AM  
I've seen so many fights at the Walmart near my house that I think all the employees deserve hazard pay. (I worked as their Hallmark vendor for 2 years.)

/still sad that the employees didn't take the chance to band together and fight for a living wage
 
2012-11-26 12:24:38 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life, a wrongful death lawsuit" Gee said in the statement,

/FTFTFA
 
2012-11-26 12:24:44 AM  

Misidea: As a APA I'm getting a kick... 
Seriously though, the entire training process is about hands off, non physical contact.
These guys better have one amazingly good story, or getting fired is the least of their concerns.


Yeah chokeholds are dangerous, it's not something you use to restrain someone, which as you mentioned they shouldn't be trying to do in the first place.
 
2012-11-26 12:25:03 AM  

Relatively Obscure: Fi'x'd.


F'x'd.
 
2012-11-26 12:25:26 AM  

fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

Especially not two DVD players. What are they these days, $20?


It's not like they were DVDs, which are worth a quarter million each.
 
2012-11-26 12:26:04 AM  
Test your might.

Shopping Combat!
 
2012-11-26 12:27:05 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.


We don't know that he stole anything. Perhaps he did purchase them and they forgot to disable the tag at checkout so the alarm went off and he refused to be accosted by a pimple faced kid.
 
2012-11-26 12:28:38 AM  

PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


This. The hurr durr guntard and dogtard crowd are always in here baying about how they're going to shoot / sick their bloodthirsty mutt on anybody who much as steps on their property because self-defense, hero complex, constitutional amendments and FREEDUMZ!!!

Half of them would've taken this guy down for a pack of twinkies, let alone a couple bits of electronics. But the same folks will probably insist that this was totally different because it's stealing from somebody who's not them.
 
2012-11-26 12:29:07 AM  

Asa Phelps: department. what the hell has happened when i can spell correctly but it's the wrong words?


Vodka
 
2012-11-26 12:29:29 AM  
okay like why would you want 2 dvd players if your in the morgue?
 
2012-11-26 12:29:31 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


TL;DR is don't steal shiat? I'm okay with that.
 
2012-11-26 12:31:29 AM  

PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief.


You're not any of those things, you're just a pussy. But hey, you can be the one to put money on this guy's commissary while he sits in county for 5 years (on the taxpayers tit no less) because he killed someone who was shoplifting.
 
2012-11-26 12:33:57 AM  
That thief would be alive if he didn't try to steal the DVD players.

On the other hand, if the it is proved that security officer inflicted any crushing injury of asphyxiation, he should be charged with manslaughter..,
 
2012-11-26 12:36:12 AM  
So proud...

cdn.thedailybeast.com
 
2012-11-26 12:37:19 AM  
And of course he will have relatives. They always do.
 
2012-11-26 12:38:18 AM  
I'm okay with this. Kinda sucks, though, that Walmart values money over their employees. Suspend their employees, blacklist the security guard, over protecting company assets, while at the same time creating situations the night after Thanksgiving where every year employees are trampled, assaulted, threatened, then fired when a customer complains...
 
2012-11-26 12:38:32 AM  

PaLarkin: The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.


Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?

I will grant that we do not know if the employees were out of line or if it was an accident.

Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.
 
2012-11-26 12:41:45 AM  
Looking through the other comments for viable quotes and comments...leaving dissatisfied. We're all drunk and incapable of using gooder grammer and spelling.
 
2012-11-26 12:47:07 AM  
Boy. I'm glad we no longer have to worry about offending other religions and people by saying merry Xmas.....look how the holidays have grown!
 
2012-11-26 12:47:34 AM  
His family just hit the Powerball jackpot.

I wish one of my dumb kids would love me enough to do that for me.
 
2012-11-26 12:47:41 AM  
How stupid are the cops that they didn't notice the man was unconscious until they were cuffing him?
 
2012-11-26 12:49:03 AM  
Why weren't they charged?
Dude died, it says they they were on him when the cops arrived. Witnesses say a choke hold hold was/maybe used. That's assult if nothing else.
Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?
 
2012-11-26 12:49:38 AM  

bel4sucks: PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief.

You're not any of those things, you're just a pussy. But hey, you can be the one to put money on this guy's commissary while he sits in county for 5 years (on the taxpayers tit no less) because he killed someone who was shoplifting.


I don't see anything in the story to suggest the guard might face charges.
 
2012-11-26 12:51:59 AM  

DownDaRiver: Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?


Notice the employees are on "paid leave." That's remarkably generous for a store that holds training sessions to help their employees apply for food stamps. Definitely they're getting treated like LEOs.
 
2012-11-26 12:53:38 AM  
Hey thieves out there, if you steal something and get caught, don't resist apprehension. Just walk back to the store and wait to be picked up by the cops.

Because if you resist apprehension, then that's a fight and people get hurt in fights. Some times even dead.

You have been warned, if you steal, you may end up dead.
 
2012-11-26 12:53:44 AM  
I know it's not directly related, but it does reaffirm my long held belief of:
"Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k Christmas!"

/30 year veteran of the war on Christmas
 
2012-11-26 12:53:52 AM  
It sounds like the guy probably died of something unrelated, but his death will certainly be thoroughly investigated. If any employee had violent contact with him that led to his death, they should expect a manslaughter charge, not to mention the multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit that will be filed against Walmart and the employees.
 
2012-11-26 12:57:21 AM  
I do believe this is just another example of our education crises. The employee thought that he was choking the chicken.
 
2012-11-26 12:57:28 AM  
Moran should not have stolen the DVD players.
 
2012-11-26 12:58:22 AM  
Those responsible for sacking the folks responsible for the sacking have been sacked.
 
2012-11-26 12:58:36 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement, according to the Journal-Constitution.

I concur. For that reason, I recommend against risking one's life by attempting to shoplift merchandise.
 
2012-11-26 01:02:43 AM  
What's the over under on the parking lot security cameras mysteriously malfunctioning during the altercation?
 
2012-11-26 01:03:01 AM  
It's Georgia people. Even if they were too hard on him, they will get off. I guarantee it.

If I worked for Wal Mart there's no way in hell I would chase after someone. Might be me getting killed and I kind of like me.
 
2012-11-26 01:03:21 AM  

DownDaRiver: Why weren't they charged?
Dude died, it says they they were on him when the cops arrived. Witnesses say a choke hold hold was/maybe used. That's assult if nothing else.
Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?


I wish. We're expected to take a lot of the same risks when it comes to protecting personal property with none of the authority comes with it. The fact they're not fird but on PTO while it gets sorted out sounds like they already know it wasnt their fault/they didnt rough the guy up and the company can prove it.
 
2012-11-26 01:03:54 AM  
I love how so many people in this thread are automatically assuming the dead guy was indeed shoplifting.

The My Little Pony Killer: How stupid are the cops that they didn't notice the man was unconscious until they were cuffing him?


You apparently are not familiar with DeKalb PD.

/great, now my WalMart is the "Murder WalMart"
 
2012-11-26 01:04:03 AM  

ExcaliburPrime111: It sounds like the guy probably died of something unrelated, but his death will certainly be thoroughly investigated. If any employee had violent contact with him that led to his death, they should expect a manslaughter charge, not to mention the multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit that will be filed against Walmart and the employees.


You can expect attorneys to line up to take this case. Walmart has deep pockets.

"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life protracted litigation," Gee said in the statement, according to the Journal-Constitution. "Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk."

Workers in retail, banks, you name it, should just let the thief walk rather than get into a physical altercation.
I don't even think these "stand your ground" laws covers chasing a thief down and killing him in the parking lot.
 
2012-11-26 01:05:08 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: How stupid are the cops that they didn't notice the man was unconscious until they were cuffing him?


my ex wife once walked into a patients room, chatted with her as she prepared to bathe her and only when she went to start did she realize the patient was dead.

the patient had been facing away and my ex had a tendency to just prattle on.
 
2012-11-26 01:06:30 AM  
How did a choke hold end up with a bloody nose?
 
2012-11-26 01:06:38 AM  
So what's the problem?
 
2012-11-26 01:07:52 AM  

Lucidz: How did a choke hold end up with a bloody nose?


Possibly a crushed larynx.
 
2012-11-26 01:09:00 AM  

fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

Especially not two DVD players. What are they these days, $20?


Apparently the guy was willing to risk his life to steal them rather than just pay for them like a normal person. I'm not saying he should have expected the particular response that he got, just that he should have known he was risking a response. How hard is it to NOT steal? I don't remember the last time I read an article about a shopkeeper or employee killing someone for buying something.
 
2012-11-26 01:10:38 AM  
So, something like this happened before.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Answers-sought-in-dea t h-outside-Wal-Mart-1917095.php

===
"About 30 people were saying, 'Let him up, it's too hot,' " Portz said. He said another employee brought a rug for Driver to lie on, but one of those holding Driver said he was fine where he was. "After about five minutes, (Driver) said, 'I'm dying, I can't breathe, call an ambulance,' " Portz said.
===

Hopefully there was a policy change.
 
2012-11-26 01:10:46 AM  
Dianna Gee, a Walmart spokeswoman, released a statement Sunday saying that both employees had been placed on paid leave.

You have GOT to be shiatting me. There is no reason for the employees to do anything more than call the cops and report this, we always hear about someone wh did nothing more than chase someone to the door and get fired, even delivery people who have fought back when being robbed because their lives were in danger, yet these guys get some time off with pay? What a joke. Hell, it's not even like they've got a Union trying to keep WallyWorld from firing them, we all know that.

The BEST they should have gotten was UNpaid suspension, the norm woud have been immediate termination.
 
2012-11-26 01:11:18 AM  

fnordfocus: I don't see anything in the story to suggest the guard might face charges.


How about this...

That's when he realized the man was unconscious and bleeding from the nose and mouth, according to WSBTV. Paramedics transported the man to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Just because charges weren't filed on the scene doesn't mean they aren't coming. Hell there is a real possibility three people are gonna get charged for manslaughter. And that store is gonna get the shiat sued out of it.
 
2012-11-26 01:12:48 AM  

dickfreckle: Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?

I will grant that we do not know if the employees were out of line or if it was an accident.

Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.


So your argument is he was stealing the DVD players in order to make enough money to survive? You sure you want to go with that tortured analogy? That's the argument that most women forced into prostitution use: they have no other way to make money than to sell themselves. Also, prostitution is regarded as a victimless crime, where shoplifting, um, isn't.

He died. It's a moral lesson to the surviving masses about stealing. Once in a while it happens, move on. And yeah, I'm hard pressed to find pity for "the victim". It's not something I'm worried about since I don't make a habit of trying to steal DVD players from Walmart; or stealing anything from anyone else, for that matter.

You don't want this to happen to you? Don't go stealing crap.
 
2012-11-26 01:14:03 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.


/I miss Lennie :(
 
2012-11-26 01:14:20 AM  

ExcaliburPrime111: It sounds like the guy probably died of something unrelated,


Where do you get that? "Unrelated" how? Bleeding from the mouth and nose can happen from being choked to death, and if it was a health related issue, you can bet that the physical attack was the catalyst. Get a description, a license plate number, the make and model of the car, and which direction he was heading in then back off. Physical confrontations are not suposed to happen, and definitely not with one of the worker drones.
 
2012-11-26 01:14:50 AM  

effugas: ===
"About 30 people were saying, 'Let him up, it's too hot,' " Portz said. He said another employee brought a rug for Driver to lie on, but one of those holding Driver said he was fine where he was. "After about five minutes, (Driver) said, 'I'm dying, I can't breathe, call an ambulance,' " Portz said.
===

Hopefully there was a policy change.


Why? They got away with it last time, and they might think it acts as a deterrent.
 
2012-11-26 01:15:09 AM  
I worked for Winn-Dixie some years back, and we saw a guy with a steak stuffed in his jacket. I tried to keep him in the general vicinity of the shopping center until police arrived. And then he took off running, and stupid me chased after him across a four-lane highway. He got away, and the district manager was PISSED that I went after him.

One of my co-workers had a similar incident a couple of years before I did, except he did manage to stay in the parking lot. It did become an altercation, and the guy pulled out a knife. My co-worker said, "Thank you for shopping with us; have a nice night!"

But I see the point: just let it go. Get a description, watch where he goes, notify the police.
 
2012-11-26 01:17:28 AM  

bel4sucks: fnordfocus: I don't see anything in the story to suggest the guard might face charges.

How about this...

That's when he realized the man was unconscious and bleeding from the nose and mouth, according to WSBTV. Paramedics transported the man to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Just because charges weren't filed on the scene doesn't mean they aren't coming. Hell there is a real possibility three people are gonna get charged for manslaughter. And that store is gonna get the shiat sued out of it.


That's a reason there should be charges, but not a reason to think the authorities are considering any.

The employees involved are on "paid leave," which just like saying the event is "being taken seriously" means it will be ignored for a while and then the public will forget.
 
2012-11-26 01:18:03 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


/it's just stuff
 
2012-11-26 01:18:29 AM  

devlin carnate: It's a moral lesson to the surviving masses about stealing. Once in a while it happens, move on.


Oh there will probably be lessons on both sides of this. Your example of "don't shoplift, cause remember that guy that got killed at Walmart"

The other being "Don't chase and detain a suspected shoplifter, which is against policy in the first place, because you'll end up in county on charges like those three dumbfarks"
 
2012-11-26 01:20:10 AM  
We almost made it through a black Friday weekend without a Walmart death.

Almost.
 
2012-11-26 01:20:35 AM  
At least someone admits that Wal-Mart's was founded by aliens.

zippythepinhead.com 

And that the IRS controls gravity.
 
2012-11-26 01:21:44 AM  

fnordfocus: DownDaRiver: Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?

Notice the employees are on "paid leave." That's remarkably generous for a store that holds training sessions to help their employees apply for food stamps. Definitely they're getting treated like LEOs.


Opps, my bad
Let my outrage befuddle my clarity
 
2012-11-26 01:24:14 AM  
When a shoplifter grabs something and heads out the door you shouldn't even follow him, he may have friends outside. You certainly don't try to grab him and put him in a choke hold, you might get stabbed or shot. In this case you may be charged with manslaughter, lose your job and get sued. Even chasing him into traffic can be the wrong decision if one of you gets hurt or killed.

It's all about making choices. The law frowns on choices where people end up dead. Obviously this guy shouldn't have been shoplifting, but that is subordinated to his ending up dead.
 
2012-11-26 01:27:02 AM  

Mikey1969: ExcaliburPrime111: It sounds like the guy probably died of something unrelated,

Where do you get that? "Unrelated" how? Bleeding from the mouth and nose can happen from being choked to death, and if it was a health related issue, you can bet that the physical attack was the catalyst. Get a description, a license plate number, the make and model of the car, and which direction he was heading in then back off. Physical confrontations are not suposed [sic] to happen, and definitely not with one of the worker drones.



I believe it is unrelated because of Walmart's response of putting the workers on paid leave and the fact that the police did not immediately arrest them on suspicion of manslaughter (or at least some flavor of assault.) The article is poor in terms of offering all the details - to me it seems very likely that some altercation occurred in connection with the alleged shoplifting, but how that led to the death of the alleged shoplifter is completely unclear.

That said, in my full comment (not just the first sentence that you quoted), I made it clear that this death will be thoroughly investigated, and if it can be proven that any of the Walmart employees or security personnel did have physical contact with the alleged shoplifter that led to his death, then they will almost certainly face serious criminal charges, as well as huge civil cases for wrongful death, both on the employees and on Walmart.
 
2012-11-26 01:37:37 AM  
Slightly more informative article

/should I feel bad that I'm relived that I discovered that this -isn't- the one I sometimes go to?
//also, people still outright assuming the alleged shoplifter is automatically guilty
 
2012-11-26 01:39:18 AM  
i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-11-26 01:43:28 AM  
I think the most important lesson here is that Walmart should train its employees properly. I mean, it isn't very difficult to apply a proper choke to someone, maybe 10 seconds and they go to sleep. At that point you can recover the merchandise, without someone getting hurt!

/Been choked a lot, but never unconcious
 
2012-11-26 01:45:41 AM  

ExcaliburPrime111: That said, in my full comment (not just the first sentence that you quoted)


I quoted the part that I had a problem with. When three people get in a physical altercation with a single person, and that person ends up dead on the ground, it's 'related'. Strangulation, death by beating, death by heart attack, it doesn't matter, it's going to be related to the fact that he died while being physically restrained by these employees. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was a criminal act, though.

I agree though that the article isn't the most informative thing ever written, but the police don't always make an arrest, even when someone dies. At this point, the DA will have to decide if he/she wants to pursue charges at this point. These WallyWorld guys are screwed though if the family decides to go for a civil suit. Stay away from those things like the plague. If someone ever threatens one, run like hell, because the rights you have in a criminal courtroom are pretty much thrown out the window.
 
2012-11-26 01:46:16 AM  
I sincerely hope whoever did the murder goes to jail, whatever the situation. I don't know what it is about these stories that makes minimum wage drones think they are superheroes who have the right to assault someone over what amounts to chump change. It's not their shiat that's being stolen, it's an expected loss by corporate that is planned into their budget, and the best outcome from intervening is that you get to keep your job even though you violated policy.

But I guess if they were smart they wouldn't be some Wal-Mart toady, huh
 
2012-11-26 01:46:47 AM  
Wal-Mart: If you think our customers are the dregs of humanity, you haven't met our employees yet.
 
2012-11-26 01:47:30 AM  

Mad Mark: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x312]


Wouldn't karma be if someone stole the dvd players from him? Seems kinda harsh that karma for stealing a cheap piece of consumer electronics is instant death.
 
2012-11-26 01:47:31 AM  

The Bestest: Slightly more informative article

/should I feel bad that I'm relived that I discovered that this -isn't- the one I sometimes go to?
//also, people still outright assuming the alleged shoplifter is automatically guilty


The way this article is phrased, it sounds like the actual asset protection guy is the one who got fired, and the other two were random employees. It makes a lot more sense that way, the AP knew better and got fired straight up, the other two are probably on hold while WalMart Legal decides if they can get away with 'He told us to' in court.
 
2012-11-26 01:48:07 AM  
Also, who the fark was the security guy? Babalu!?!?

/obscure?
 
2012-11-26 01:48:52 AM  

Beta Tested: I think the most important lesson here is that Walmart should train its employees properly. I mean, it isn't very difficult to apply a proper choke to someone, maybe 10 seconds and they go to sleep. At that point you can recover the merchandise, without someone getting hurt!

/Been choked a lot, but never unconcious


www.flowtown.com
 
2012-11-26 01:50:28 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Mad Mark: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x312]

Wouldn't karma be if someone stole the dvd players from him? Seems kinda harsh that karma for stealing a cheap piece of consumer electronics is instant death.


That's ridiculous. It wasn't Guy took a few hours to die; nothing instant about it.
 
2012-11-26 01:51:09 AM  

untaken_name: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Mad Mark: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x312]

Wouldn't karma be if someone stole the dvd players from him? Seems kinda harsh that karma for stealing a cheap piece of consumer electronics is instant death.

That's ridiculous. It wasn't Guy took a few hours minutes to die; nothing instant about it.

FTFM.
 
2012-11-26 01:51:33 AM  

untaken_name: Beta Tested: I think the most important lesson here is that Walmart should train its employees properly. I mean, it isn't very difficult to apply a proper choke to someone, maybe 10 seconds and they go to sleep. At that point you can recover the merchandise, without someone getting hurt!

/Been choked a lot, but never unconcious

[www.flowtown.com image 560x373]


Yea... I read that in his voice too now...

/Ashamed
 
2012-11-26 01:55:12 AM  

Mikey1969: ExcaliburPrime111: That said, in my full comment (not just the first sentence that you quoted)

I quoted the part that I had a problem with. When three people get in a physical altercation with a single person, and that person ends up dead on the ground, it's 'related'. Strangulation, death by beating, death by heart attack, it doesn't matter, it's going to be related to the fact that he died while being physically restrained by these employees. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was a criminal act, though.

I agree though that the article isn't the most informative thing ever written, but the police don't always make an arrest, even when someone dies. At this point, the DA will have to decide if he/she wants to pursue charges at this point. These WallyWorld guys are screwed though if the family decides to go for a civil suit. Stay away from those things like the plague. If someone ever threatens one, run like hell, because the rights you have in a criminal courtroom are pretty much thrown out the window.



We still do not have a cause of death, although the coroner's office might be able to provide that as early as Monday. You also acknowledge that "it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a criminal act" and it is certainly possible that some natural cause of death, unrelated to any altercation, caused the alleged shoplifter to die.

Based on the facts as stated in the article, I find it difficult to believe that the police would not arrest the person who allegedly applied a choke hold if the victim died from it. Even so, if the cause of death is asphyxiation, then we will see a "Follow Up" pretty soon about criminal charges and wrongful death lawsuits.
 
2012-11-26 02:04:00 AM  
Slightly different story reported by Huffington Post

The police report said that the alleged shoplifter left the Walmart through the front door with two DVD players at around 1:30 a.m. Sunday morning. He was detained in the parking lot by two Walmart associates and a security officer.

Police arrived to find the employees on top of the suspect, who was reportedly unresponsive and bleeding from his nose and mouth.

A preliminary investigation indicates the victim was placed in a chokehold by the security officer, reports The Atlanta Journal Constitution. However, the cause of death has not yet been released.

According to a statement from Walmart spokeswoman Dianna Gee, the security officer is no longer working for Walmart, and the two associates involved in the altercation have been suspended without pay.
 
2012-11-26 02:04:11 AM  

Misidea: DownDaRiver: Why weren't they charged?
Dude died, it says they they were on him when the cops arrived. Witnesses say a choke hold hold was/maybe used. That's assult if nothing else.
Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?

I wish. We're expected to take a lot of the same risks when it comes to protecting personal property with none of the authority comes with it. The fact they're not fird but on PTO while it gets sorted out sounds like they already know it wasnt their fault/they didnt rough the guy up and the company can prove it.


I get what you're saying, but
They had no authority to step out the door after the guy, other than to make an attempt to ID a vehicle let alone confront him and make physical contact. They knew that, its ingrained during their training.
Not much of a difference than anyone else. If anyone makes an aggresive physical contact with another, there is at least a basis for assult.
Unless the guy collasped as they approached him, again they are not authorized to do that, and they were rendering first aid, also something they know they can't do unless fully trained and authorized by management, so the cops choose not to charge them at the time.
 
2012-11-26 02:08:13 AM  
Discount double choke?
 
2012-11-26 02:09:10 AM  

devlin carnate: dickfreckle: Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?

I will grant that we do not know if the employees were out of line or if it was an accident.

Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.

So your argument is he was stealing the DVD players in order to make enough money to survive? You sure you want to go with that tortured analogy? That's the argument that most women forced into prostitution use: they have no other way to make money than to sell themselves. Also, prostitution is regarded as a victimless crime, where shoplifting, um, isn't.

He died. It's a moral lesson to the surviving masses about stealing. Once in a while it happens, move on. And yeah, I'm hard pressed to find pity for "the victim". It's not something I'm worried about since I don't make a habit of trying to steal DVD players from Walmart; or stealing anything from anyone else, for that matter.

You don't want this to happen to you? Don't go stealing crap.


Tortured analogy? Enough money to survive? You're nitpicking over which crime I chose as an example? instead of responding to the overall moral question I posed? Fine, I'll change the farking job title:

How about stealing the cash equivalent of two cheap DVD players from the register at McDonald's. Is your scorn still upon the thief, or the manager who killed him over a pittance? What I'm saying is that you're blaming the victim (even if said victim is a criminal) instead of the people who actually killed him.

I picked prostitution because it's a low-level crime wherein the victim is typically blamed when something befalls her or him (as you are doing). No, not all prostitutes do it to "survive." Call girls make small fortunes but that won't stop some creep from choking her to death. I guess she deserves it too, eh? In the next Fark greenlight about a hooker being murdered, are you still to stand by your "tortured" logic?
 
2012-11-26 02:10:48 AM  

Fark Me Runnin: We almost made it through a black Friday weekend without a Walmart death.

Almost.


If you don't count the Walmart employee who was trampled to death in Long Island.
Link
 
2012-11-26 02:12:07 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


Assclown, if I caught someone stealing from my car I wouldn't kill them. I'd use reasonable force if I felt I could do so, I would let them run away with whatever it was if not. You don't overwhelm someone with lethal force over a petty theft. Reasonable force, yes, of course. Kill them? Guess what... now YOU are the bad guy.
 
2012-11-26 02:12:11 AM  

gweilo8888: PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?

This. The hurr durr guntard and dogtard crowd are always in here baying about how they're going to shoot / sick their bloodthirsty mutt on anybody who much as steps on their property because self-defense, hero complex, constitutional amendments and FREEDUMZ!!!

Half of them would've taken this guy down for a pack of twinkies, let alone a couple bits of electronics. But the same folks will probably insist that this was totally different because it's stealing from somebody who's not them.


If he didn't steal the dvd players, lock up the guys responsible for his death.

Damm straight he should be taken down for a pack of twinkies. Have you seen what they're going for on ebay? Their worth more than the farking dvd players.
 
2012-11-26 02:14:30 AM  

effugas: So, something like this happened before.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Answers-sought-in-dea t h-outside-Wal-Mart-1917095.php

===
"About 30 people were saying, 'Let him up, it's too hot,' " Portz said. He said another employee brought a rug for Driver to lie on, but one of those holding Driver said he was fine where he was. "After about five minutes, (Driver) said, 'I'm dying, I can't breathe, call an ambulance,' " Portz said.
===

Hopefully there was a policy change.


Yep, hopefully the new policy is:









DON'T STEAL shiat







 
2012-11-26 02:17:20 AM  
The same Walmart spokesman, Dianna Gee, keeps popping up in the various stories about customers/suspected shoplifters getting killed by Walmart employees in their parking lots. She has a crappy job.
 
2012-11-26 02:20:11 AM  

stuffy: And of course he will have relatives. They always do.


this will be the best thing he ever did for his family, free lance Socialism must be stamped out
 
2012-11-26 02:26:43 AM  
"When police arrived, they found the trio on top of the man. An officer who handcuffed the suspected shoplifter detected no resistance from him and ordered the employees off. Police found the man to be unresponsive and bleeding from his nose and mouth."

... and that was the sound of the powerball dropping and completing the set of matching numbers.
 
2012-11-26 02:33:14 AM  
Damn, we've got a lot of armchair Dirty Harry's on Fark.

I guess you folks are okay with the cops shooting people who look suspicious too huh? Don't worry, we'l figure out if they're actually did anything AFTER the funeral.
 
2012-11-26 02:39:16 AM  

red5ish: Fark Me Runnin: We almost made it through a black Friday weekend without a Walmart death.

Almost.

If you don't count the Walmart employee who was trampled to death in Long Island.
Link


OK, so we almost made it through a black Friday weekend without TWO Walmart deaths.

I think it'd still be a record.
 
2012-11-26 02:41:12 AM  
Lawsuit . its gonna happen.
 
2012-11-26 02:42:11 AM  

bullsballs: If the guys larynx was crushed, maybe the choke hold was a little tight.
or did they sit on the guy a little hard and put a rib through a lung?
can't wait for the autopsy!


I predict suffocation from two fat-asses sitting on his chest while they waited for the real cops. It has happened many times before.
 
2012-11-26 02:43:08 AM  

Fark Me Runnin: red5ish: Fark Me Runnin: We almost made it through a black Friday weekend without a Walmart death.

Almost.

If you don't count the Walmart employee who was trampled to death in Long Island.
Link

OK, so we almost made it through a black Friday weekend without TWO Walmart deaths.

I think it'd still be a record.


With proper leadership and preparation I'm sure they can have even more deaths next year. The company is so large it is probably self-insured. Imagine the risk management department at their headquarters and the office pool they circulate on the 21st.
 
2012-11-26 02:49:03 AM  

ExcaliburPrime111: Mikey1969: ExcaliburPrime111: That said, in my full comment (not just the first sentence that you quoted)

I quoted the part that I had a problem with. When three people get in a physical altercation with a single person, and that person ends up dead on the ground, it's 'related'. Strangulation, death by beating, death by heart attack, it doesn't matter, it's going to be related to the fact that he died while being physically restrained by these employees. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was a criminal act, though.

I agree though that the article isn't the most informative thing ever written, but the police don't always make an arrest, even when someone dies. At this point, the DA will have to decide if he/she wants to pursue charges at this point. These WallyWorld guys are screwed though if the family decides to go for a civil suit. Stay away from those things like the plague. If someone ever threatens one, run like hell, because the rights you have in a criminal courtroom are pretty much thrown out the window.


We still do not have a cause of death, although the coroner's office might be able to provide that as early as Monday. You also acknowledge that "it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a criminal act" and it is certainly possible that some natural cause of death, unrelated to any altercation, caused the alleged shoplifter to die.

Based on the facts as stated in the article, I find it difficult to believe that the police would not arrest the person who allegedly applied a choke hold if the victim died from it. Even so, if the cause of death is asphyxiation, then we will see a "Follow Up" pretty soon about criminal charges and wrongful death lawsuits.


When I say "related", I'm not trying to say that the guy was definitely choked to death, I'm saying that if you due in a physical altercation, that altercation is involved in some way. This dancing around the details just annoys me. It's the same every time a person dies immediately after getting Tasered. The police do everything they can to assertion that the Taser was in no way responsible for the outcome, but the reality is different. If you die from a heart attack after reading a newspaper article about a long lost friend dying horribly, although you had a bad heart, the story about the friend's death was what caused the stress levels to rise, and led to the onset of the heart attack. Same here. I'm not saying they choked home to death, but it is a safe bet that he would be alive today and he not gotten into this physical altercation, so it IS related, IMHO. That doesn't mean that I think it was a deliberate criminal act, just that there is a relationship between the altercation and his death, just like with the Taser incidents earlier. This dancing around the words has just always bugged me, that's all.

It DOES bother me that they didn't even pay enough attention to notice that the guy was dead though, but that's a totally different thing, I think these guys were too busy convincing themselves that they were heroes to pay attention to the real world. Anyone who is that self absorbed probably needs a reality check on life.
 
2012-11-26 02:51:01 AM  
Everyone involved in this story is an idiot.
 
2012-11-26 02:57:39 AM  
Another person joins the "I'm never buying at Walmart again" boycott.
 
2012-11-26 02:57:58 AM  

SoxSweepAgain: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?

Assclown, if I caught someone stealing from my car I wouldn't kill them. I'd use reasonable force if I felt I could do so, I would let them run away with whatever it was if not. You don't overwhelm someone with lethal force over a petty theft. Reasonable force, yes, of course. Kill them? Guess what... now YOU are the bad guy.


Depends on the state.
 
2012-11-26 03:02:53 AM  

Relatively Obscure: Asa Phelps: Those guys, and their bosses, and some of their bosses bosses, are probably gonna get fired.

Fix'd.


They'll probably have their paychecks docked first, for the time they spent outside the store without permission.
 
2012-11-26 03:03:52 AM  

rkelley25: Another person joins the "I'm never buying at Walmart again" boycott.


He also joins the "another criminal who will never commit a crime again" club.
 
2012-11-26 03:06:08 AM  

GORDON: If only there were some way to not steal DVD players from Walmart.

None of us are safe.


THIS
 
2012-11-26 03:09:35 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


The same concept of laws, which makes stealing a crime, also makes it a crime for store rent-a-cops to crush a man's larynx and kill him over $40 worth of cheap Chinese electronics.
I wouldn't say you're mean or cruel, just a bit misguided. You like the theft laws, but not the laws about murder?
Granted, we don't know all the facts, so a conclusion can't yet be drawn. But, it doesn't look good for Barney Fife and his gang.
 
2012-11-26 03:16:28 AM  

Fail in Human Form: SoxSweepAgain: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?

Assclown, if I caught someone stealing from my car I wouldn't kill them. I'd use reasonable force if I felt I could do so, I would let them run away with whatever it was if not. You don't overwhelm someone with lethal force over a petty theft. Reasonable force, yes, of course. Kill them? Guess what... now YOU are the bad guy.

Depends on the state.


No it doesn't. There is a slew of charges that can be brought upon Walmart and their employees. Unlawful arrest, manslaughter, homicide, just to name a few. Let alone the civil suit that will be brought about almost assuredly by the victim family. All those federal crimes too. That's why it is universal in retail you don't chase the perp down to risk is way too high in terms legality and costs. shiat you slip on a grape in store the costs for the company can run into the millions. Now actually killing a guy that can't be cheap.
 
2012-11-26 03:17:47 AM  
Marilyn Manson in his autobiography said that there should be a death penalty for shoplifting because if you are dumb enough to get caught you deserve to be executed.

I didn't know some security guards took this literally.
 
2012-11-26 03:47:25 AM  
I don't know whether I should be outraged until I learn the races and sexual orientations of all those involved.

Not really. I'm wondering if the guy was even a thief at all. I usually pay for electronics in the back of the store. It's possible the man did the same and just didn't feel the need to whip out his receipt upon exit. The overzealous employees may have not even seen whether he stole the items or not. Thief or not, the employees were not justified in taking another man's life.
 
2012-11-26 03:48:47 AM  
Hearses ain't free, subby.
 
2012-11-26 03:50:56 AM  
cliffviewpilot.com

Snopes said that the last paragraph is not true, but it does make me laugh a bit.
 
2012-11-26 04:01:41 AM  
My ex-husband worked at Walmart. Their associates are trained to never try to physically stop a suspected shoplifter. In addition to the thief being dead, I suspect the associates will be fired for violating company policy.
 
2012-11-26 04:12:04 AM  
What's a "DVD" player?!
 
2012-11-26 04:12:18 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


If he was in my house id shoot the bastard.

/no sympathy here either.
 
2012-11-26 04:21:09 AM  

PaLarkin: How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?


You know what? I would probably "feel like" killing him with my bare hands. But I wouldn't. Because I cannot morally justify acting in a manner that would cause someone else's death to protect $40 worth of cheap electronics. I might kill someone to retrieve a child's medication, or the very last bit of food or something else necessary for survival, but I can't morally justify it over a freakin' DVD player.

If you can justify killing someone simply on the principal that "it was mine", I'm not sure if you are ready to be a part of society.

Wal-Mart paid these people to work this security detail and prevent losses from theft. They either failed to properly train them or failed to properly oversee them. You cannot give a corporation (no matter how much it is a "people") the right to take someone's life, no matter what. Our society has reserved that right for the State itself, or in certain circumstances in which one's life is in danger. As this person had already left the store, no one's life was in danger here, and their lives were definitely not in danger once the person was restrained. However, I withhold any judgement until I hear about the autopsy report.

I'm not sure I would be buying Wal-Mart stock at the moment. I know they have an army of awesome attorneys, but I believe they will eventually lose one of these wrongful death lawsuits.
 
2012-11-26 04:25:46 AM  

vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!


It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.
 
2012-11-26 04:28:48 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: If he was in my house id shoot the bastard.

/no sympathy here either.


There's a world of difference between "in your house" and "running out of a store with $40 worth of cheap electronics." I might shoot him in my home as well, since I have no idea what else he might do in my home. But I can't morally justify acting in a manner that puts an already restrained individual at risk of death over some piece of crap Chinese-made DVD players.
 
2012-11-26 04:32:19 AM  

ox45tallboy: The more you eat the more you fart: If he was in my house id shoot the bastard.

/no sympathy here either.

There's a world of difference between "in your house" and "running out of a store with $40 worth of cheap electronics." I might shoot him in my home as well, since I have no idea what else he might do in my home. But I can't morally justify acting in a manner that puts an already restrained individual at risk of death over some piece of crap Chinese-made DVD players.


Read the question i was answering.

Do i think Walmart security should have choked him to death? Absolutely not. Would I still shoot him if he was in my house? Absolutely.
 
2012-11-26 04:39:11 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Read the question i was answering.

Do i think Walmart security should have choked him to death? Absolutely not. Would I still shoot him if he was in my house? Absolutely.


I think it was your saying "no sympathy here either" that made it appear as if you identified with PaLarkin's assessment that the deceased deserved whatever happened, as he had somehow surrendered his right to life the second he was accused of committing a nonviolent crime.
 
2012-11-26 04:39:40 AM  

ox45tallboy: vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!

It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.


i49.tinypic.com
 
2012-11-26 04:40:26 AM  
Soooo... stop criminal, get fired?
 
2012-11-26 04:52:37 AM  

GreenSun: Soooo... stop criminal, get fired?


No, kill suspected criminal, get paid vacation. The employees are currently on "paid leave".
 
2012-11-26 04:56:35 AM  

vrax: ox45tallboy: vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!

It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.

[i49.tinypic.com image 235x163]


Okay, then, it's like a digital download, only it comes on a disc and you have to pay way too much for it and sit through an FBI warning in five languages and four commercials that you can't skip for other DVD's you are expected to purchase.
 
2012-11-26 05:07:37 AM  

ox45tallboy: vrax: ox45tallboy: vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!

It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.

[i49.tinypic.com image 235x163]

Okay, then, it's like a digital download, only it comes on a disc and you have to pay way too much for it and sit through an FBI warning in five languages and four commercials that you can't skip for other DVD's you are expected to purchase.


Is that like something they used in Nam to get a POW to talk?! I'd talk. Hell, put the bamboo back under my fingernails!
 
2012-11-26 05:13:18 AM  

msbav8r: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?

The same concept of laws, which makes stealing a crime, also makes it a crime for store rent-a-cops to crush a man's larynx and kill him over $40 worth of cheap Chinese electronics.
I wouldn't say you're mean or cruel, just a bit misguided. You like the theft laws, but not the laws about murder?
Granted, we don't know all the facts, so a conclusion can't yet be drawn. But, it doesn't look good for Barney Fife and his gang.


If the guy stole the dvd players, store security killed him for it and that's all there is to it, then they overreacted. If they tried to arrest him and he resisted, maybe they have cause to use force. Still if that's all there is to it, they overreacted. Did the thief try to attack them? Did he have a knife or other weapon? We don't know.

I'll try to explain my point of view another way. A man tells his son not to use bath salts, or any other synthetic party drug. He explains to his son the dangers of using illicit drugs. The kid goes against his dad wishes and tries a dose of whatever. He has a bad reaction to it and dies as a result. No the kid would not deserve to die for going against his dad's wishes. However the fact remains that had he listened to his dad and not taken the whatever it was, he would not have died.

The guy at the wal mart didn't deserve to die for stealing maybe $100 worth of cheap crap from China. Had he not stolen the stuff, he would not have put himself in a sitiuation where he would be attacked by overzealos rent a cops and would be alive today.
 
2012-11-26 05:20:20 AM  

ox45tallboy: vrax: ox45tallboy: vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!

It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.

[i49.tinypic.com image 235x163]

Okay, then, it's like a digital download, only it comes on a disc and you have to pay way too much for it and sit through an FBI warning in five languages and four commercials that you can't skip for other DVD's you are expected to purchase.


What one of those FBI warnings might look like. (video version, the 5-7 second card warnings are a pain too.)
 
2012-11-26 05:46:01 AM  

PaLarkin: Had he not stolen the stuff, he would not have put himself in a sitiuation where he would be attacked by overzealos rent a cops and would be alive today.


I don't like the logic behind blaming the victim. Had the kid in your story died when he got in a car wreck coming from the dealer's house, rather than from taking the drugs, are the drugs still to blame? Had a certain young lady not went to the nightclub, would she not have been raped?

This guy (let's just assume he's guilty of attempting to steal $40 of cheap Chinese-made electronics) chose to steal based on an understanding of the consequences society has put in place for such actions. For instance, a juvenile might get a slap on the wrist such as a "diversionary" program and their record wiped clean a year later if they are caught committing this same offense. They are not risking very much by trying to steal. However, a California resident that has already been convicted of two felonies would be facing life in prison if caught and successfully prosecuted; he is risking far more than the juvenile for doing exactly the same act. (Yes, I know California's three strikes law just got voted down, but that hasn't been implemented yet.)

However, DEATH is not a consequence our society has determined is applicable for anyone caught shoplifting, no matter their prior criminal record. While this may be the case in other countries, it is not the case here, and I don't think any of us here in the US would prefer to live under the system of government in place in those countries where death is a possible consequence of shoplifting.

Therefore, I don't think it is fair to say "he deserved it" or "he got what he had coming" or "if he hadn't have shoplifted, this wouldn't have happened." While that may be technically true, it is not a reasonable consequence of his action any more than dying in an automobile accident is a reasonable consequence of purchasing and transporting recreational drugs.

Wal-Mart should have trained and managed their employees better. I don't think anyone would have been fired if the guy had gotten away, and I really doubt the employees would have been rewarded with raises or other tangible things had the guy survived and been prosecuted for the crime.
 
2012-11-26 05:46:57 AM  

OptimusHime: What one of those FBI warnings might look like. (video version, the 5-7 second card warnings are a pain too.)


Yeah, thanks for that. Now I'm going to be stuck watching "IT Crowd" clips and never get to sleep.
 
2012-11-26 05:49:21 AM  
Don't start no shiat, won't be no shiat.
 
2012-11-26 06:09:42 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement,

Wait. This is an American person making that statement? I don't believe that for a minute.
 
2012-11-26 06:19:11 AM  

MilesTeg: So what's the problem?



I'm sure his death is it's own little micro-tragedy. But I admit I find it weird when one particular event causes an uproar when the other 45 (on a statistically average day in the U.S.) even more pointless homicides that day don't matter. 16000 people a year killed, many over something as stupid as a comment or a glance at the wrong person. Many people killed for no reason at all - which is surely more tragic than the death of a thief. So if I am not sitting here feeling outraged and self-righteous about those other 45 unjust pointless innocent deaths - I really just have to admit that this one guy dying during an attempted theft just really ranks as - meh, one less thief.
 
2012-11-26 06:36:09 AM  
As someone who used to bust shoplifters f
 
2012-11-26 06:44:43 AM  

jaybeezey: As someone who used to bust shoplifters f


Phone keypad is too small. Anyway... As someone who used to bust shoplifters for Kohls (until I finished my degree) I can say that you don't get into altercations in parking lots over this crap.

You don't know who else might be out there and what it might lead to.

I got into my share of fights, but some shoplifters enjoy that aspect of it. I just wanted to get the store's shiat back and earn my pay. The smart crack head professional shoplifters would use their babies as shields knowing that we wouldn't do anything that might hurt a kid.
 
2012-11-26 06:47:58 AM  

Wrencher: I predict suffocation from two fat-asses sitting on his chest while they waited for the real cops. It has happened many times before.


^ This.
 
2012-11-26 06:50:15 AM  

PaLarkin: The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.


That's right, kids. If you steal from wal-mart, they will farkING KILL you.
 
2012-11-26 06:51:03 AM  
Positional asphyxiation

/not all life is precious
 
2012-11-26 06:51:06 AM  

jedikinkoid: Wrencher: I predict suffocation from two fat-asses sitting on his chest while they waited for the real cops. It has happened many times before.

^ This.


holy shiat that link is awesome. no more looking at the microfiche at the library
 
2012-11-26 06:53:01 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: MilesTeg: So what's the problem?


I'm sure his death is it's own little micro-tragedy. But I admit I find it weird when one particular event causes an uproar when the other 45 (on a statistically average day in the U.S.) even more pointless homicides that day don't matter. 16000 people a year killed, many over something as stupid as a comment or a glance at the wrong person. Many people killed for no reason at all - which is surely more tragic than the death of a thief. So if I am not sitting here feeling outraged and self-righteous about those other 45 unjust pointless innocent deaths - I really just have to admit that this one guy dying during an attempted theft just really ranks as - meh, one less thief.


The media will not dwell on black on black crime. To them, it may as well not exist. Anything that goes against their pre-determined narrative isn't real.

/yay journalism!
 
2012-11-26 07:05:40 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: MilesTeg: So what's the problem?


I'm sure his death is it's own little micro-tragedy. But I admit I find it weird when one particular event causes an uproar when the other 45 (on a statistically average day in the U.S.) even more pointless homicides that day don't matter. 16000 people a year killed, many over something as stupid as a comment or a glance at the wrong person. Many people killed for no reason at all - which is surely more tragic than the death of a thief. So if I am not sitting here feeling outraged and self-righteous about those other 45 unjust pointless innocent deaths - I really just have to admit that this one guy dying during an attempted theft just really ranks as - meh, one less thief.


You should break that stat down at least a little. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf Every category listed has government money being spent on it. Federal Programs, State Programs, War on Drugs. I'm guessing the total price tag is several hundred billion per year. So with that in mind, homicides aren't exactly ignored.

A Wally World employee going all Nun Chuck Magazine on a petty thief is just farking unbelievable. *Employees* are statistically more likely to steal from Walmart than customers. Half of store video cameras are watching the cashiers. I've seen stores take it so far as to provide clear vinyl bags to employees - leave your purses at home (Dillards).

This asshat's job is (was) to stand around. Regardless of whether he was in a uniform or not, the notion of hiring "security" and having people watching is a deterrent. He read the human scarecrow job ad and somehow came away thinking it's okay to kill people. That should be at least a few years in jail.
 
2012-11-26 07:14:53 AM  

Mikey1969: ExcaliburPrime111: It sounds like the guy probably died of something unrelated,

Where do you get that? "Unrelated" how? Bleeding from the mouth and nose can happen from being choked to death, and if it was a health related issue, you can bet that the physical attack was the catalyst. Get a description, a license plate number, the make and model of the car, and which direction he was heading in then back off. Physical confrontations are not suposed to happen, and definitely not with one of the worker drones.


Then they just sue the guy for just under the local limit in small-claims court for cost of the "investigation" if you have evidence and witnesses. No need to try to detain the suspect and/or call the goons from the local constabulary to frog-march the perp to the cruiser.

Way more cost-effective and doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime.
 
2012-11-26 07:24:10 AM  
These threads are awesome. The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I mean all you guys cheerleading this guy's death would feel the same way if he'd killed the security guard right? It would be the Walmart employee's fault because of his poor decisions?
 
2012-11-26 07:29:38 AM  

Asa Phelps: seriously though. my sister was working in loss prevention for a major retailer ages ago. Was being groomed to take over the apartment. And then some thug at another store puts a shoplifter in the hospital over a few DVDs and it turns out he has priors. Corporate cleaned house. All new management for the entire region.


Stores want their security staff to look intimidating and as though they'd beat you to death. Unfortunately most of the people who look intimidating (rather than just big/strong) and are happy to work for security guard wages will actually beat you to death.

It's the constant dilemma of such situations.
 
2012-11-26 07:39:56 AM  
Walmart: Beware of Falling Thieves
 
2012-11-26 07:48:18 AM  
moviechopshop.com
Approves
 
2012-11-26 07:58:34 AM  

DownDaRiver: They had no authority to step out the door after the guy, other than to make an attempt to ID a vehicle let alone confront him and make physical contact.


They do have the authority tio confront them, by yelling "stop thief" or just following them.

They may get fired for it, but in the US you don't need special authority to do that to anyone.

You are right they don't have the authority to initiate physical contact, but I am not sure why so many people seem to be thinking that the worker and not the thief did that.


SoxSweepAgain: Assclown, if I caught someone stealing from my car I wouldn't kill them. I'd use reasonable force if I felt I could do so, I would let them run away with whatever it was if not. You don't overwhelm someone with lethal force over a petty theft. Reasonable force, yes, of course. Kill them? Guess what... now YOU are the bad guy


What is reasonable force?

What if in the course of you using "reasonable force" he pulled a knife, or got on top of you and started hitting you in the face, would a choke be reasonable then?
 
2012-11-26 07:58:45 AM  

untaken_name: fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

Especially not two DVD players. What are they these days, $20?

Apparently the guy was willing to risk his life to steal them rather than just pay for them like a normal person. I'm not saying he should have expected the particular response that he got, just that he should have known he was risking a response. How hard is it to NOT steal? I don't remember the last time I read an article about a shopkeeper or employee killing someone for buying something.


I'm not so sure that stealing 2 DVD players from Walmart can be generally considered risking one's life.
 
2012-11-26 07:59:00 AM  

Free Radical: [moviechopshop.com image 290x371]
Approves


I will MURDER YOU!

//great threat
 
2012-11-26 08:02:29 AM  
i.imgur.com

"That's the Walmart way."
 
2012-11-26 08:08:11 AM  

Relatively Obscure: Asa Phelps: Those guys, and their bosses, and some of their bosses bosses, are probably gonna get fired.

Fix'd.


They were screwed either way (they get fired for allowing a customer to steal, and they get fired for even trying to get the stolen goods back), so they might as well go out big.
 
2012-11-26 08:10:43 AM  

KrispyKritter: CreamFilling: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This sounds like it'd inspire one of the inferior episodes of Law & Order. Where Lennie Briscoe quips, "Well, looks like checked out anyways" and the whole thing is an Aesop about corporate greed and cover-up.

Or an episode of SVU where they find out he was shoplifting them to entertain a fleet of teenage prostitutes, and at some point Ice T asks "What kind of sick bastard...?" The whole department is always surprised when it turns out to be some weird sex crime, even though presumably they're aware they work in SVU, where the crimes are promised to be particularly heinous.

Hopefully Ice-T would let us in on some hip street phrase that all too soon would become over-used in suburbia. Within a few months even the nerds on The Big Bang Theory are dropping it on air, and by then Ice-T is well on to a whole other groove.


Crunk that.
 
2012-11-26 08:12:16 AM  

Mock26: Moran should not have stolen the DVD players.


No kidding... He should've gone for Blu-Ray players these days! What a dumbass!
 
2012-11-26 08:16:04 AM  

ExcaliburPrime111: I find it difficult to believe that the police would not arrest the person who allegedly applied a choke hold if the victim died from it


Why? That's standard police procedure in many departments?
 
2012-11-26 08:21:13 AM  
As someone who worked retail way back, it's too bad this doesn't happen a lot more often. Not because thieves deserve death, but because then maybe the general public wouldn't have such an entitled, terrible attitude when they wall into a retail establishment if this sort of thing just kind of happened occasionally.
 
2012-11-26 08:22:53 AM  

Makh: FTFA: both employees had been placed on paid leave.

Sweet, free vacation too.


I'm shocked that Walmart didn't outright fire them. They are known for outright firing people for even *touching* a customer (even unintentionally)...

like this poor lady: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167497/Walmart-worker-Jan-Sul livan-73-fired-attacked-Black-Friday-bargain-hunter.html


That person on "paid leave" should start job hunting and get away from Walmart, it's the best move they can make before the corporation decides to choose a "scapegoat" for this whole incident.
 
2012-11-26 08:35:19 AM  
I think I've figured out Walmart's angle here. Three people involved, two store employees and a security officer, probably hired from an independent company for additional Black Friday weekend support.

The two Walmart employees are on paid leave and haven't been fired.

Why?

Because they weren't at fault (wink).

They were clearly under duress and following the orders of the security guard, after all he was the one who choke slammed the guy (nudge).

The security guard works for an independent contractor and is not under direct control of Walmart (wink wink).

Clearly it would be foolish to sue Walmart for the actions of one depraved individual, and not the company that he actually works for (wink wink nudge nudge).

And if it takes less money than a lawsuit would cost a little paid leave to interview our employees and get their stories straight complete our internal investigation into this terrible tragedy, then so be it.
 
2012-11-26 08:38:39 AM  

fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"


It would seem that the guy who was stealing them thought so or he would not have taken the risk.

It should be a given that death is possible if you are taking what does not belong to you; be it a shoplifter at Walmart, burglar at somebody's home. an embezzeler at a financial insitution or a politician. If you are engaged in a criminal act you are not entitled to a safe work environment.
 
2012-11-26 08:44:17 AM  
I'm loathe to bring this down to near-godwin territory, but 'remain seated and wait for the authorities' is what gave us 9/11. If someone stole something from you (sorta) and you catch them in a choke hold, and they die, sucks to be them. You think they would have fared better at the hands of the cops?
 
GBB
2012-11-26 08:48:37 AM  

fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"


Exactly. So stop shoplifting.
 
2012-11-26 08:48:51 AM  

hasty ambush: fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

It would seem that the guy who was stealing them thought so or he would not have taken the risk.

It should be a given that death is possible if you are taking what does not belong to you; be it a shoplifter at Walmart, burglar at somebody's home. an embezzeler at a financial insitution or a politician. If you are engaged in a criminal act you are not entitled to a safe work environment.


Remember, folks - next time you're tempted to speed, hope you don't wind up in Judge Hasty Ambush's courtroom. "70 in a 65? sounds like a hangin' to me!"
 
2012-11-26 08:49:04 AM  
Hmmm doesn't mention what color the thief was.. anyone care to guess??

And people should be happy that this person is now out of the gene pool...

"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement,

Thats BULLshiat.....
 
GBB
2012-11-26 08:52:46 AM  
t3.gstatic.com
 
kab
2012-11-26 08:56:07 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement

Others seem to agree:

www.careercapitalist.com
 
2012-11-26 08:58:04 AM  
dickfreckle: PaLarkin: The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?

I will grant that we do not know if the employees were out of line or if it was an accident.

Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.


I put the retarded redneck troll on ignore, personally.
 
2012-11-26 09:00:53 AM  
Cuchulane: I know it's not directly related, but it does reaffirm my long held belief of:
"Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k Christmas!"

/30 year veteran of the war on Christmas


LOL....lemme guess, you're a fat, bearded SCA type?
 
2012-11-26 09:05:16 AM  
You died over two discounted DVD players? You couldn't even go for the Blu-Ray? That obituary is going to be embarrassing. "He died as he lived: Grasping meaninglessly toward discounted, obsolete tech-crap while being mauled by poverty-wage employees in khakis."
 
2012-11-26 09:05:35 AM  
I see the usual dump on Wal-Mart thread is active
 
2012-11-26 09:08:19 AM  

Bigdogdaddy: It's Georgia people. Even if they were too hard on him, they will get off. I guarantee it.

If I worked for Wal Mart there's no way in hell I would chase after someone. Might be me getting killed and I kind of like me.


It's Lithonia, though. They're probably all black... so, you know, don't be too sure.
 
2012-11-26 09:09:27 AM  

Bigdogdaddy: Might be me getting killed and I kind of like me.


Wait'll you get to know you a little better...you're actually a real prick.
 
2012-11-26 09:15:22 AM  
lh6.ggpht.com

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time
 
2012-11-26 09:17:57 AM  

RobSeace: Mock26: Moran should not have stolen the DVD players.

No kidding... He should've gone for Blu-Ray players these days! What a dumbass!


Seriously that's like $40 total for something fairly bulky. If you can hide something that big grab a boxed set of blurays.
 
2012-11-26 09:29:08 AM  
To be fair with the cost of funerals being what they are, that's a pretty good deal.
 
2012-11-26 09:32:01 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: How stupid are the cops that they didn't notice the man was unconscious until they were cuffing him?


Not sure if stupid but I'll bite.

Yeah, your bad guy looks unconscious, Doctor Constable M.D. Let's say he actually is and he's not messing with you. What's easier: Promising everyone who's going to come into contact with this guy that you know for a fact that he will not wake up and try to hurt somebody, or taking ten seconds and locking him up properly?
 
2012-11-26 09:46:32 AM  

Misidea: As a APA I'm getting a kick... 
Seriously though, the entire training process is about hands off, non physical contact.
These guys better have one amazingly good story, or getting fired is the least of their concerns.


Yeah. They're in deep doo-doo unless what actually went down is he attacked them. (I could picture it happening--they follow him to try to get a license plate, he turns on them.)
 
2012-11-26 09:48:15 AM  

dickfreckle: PaLarkin: The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?

I will grant that we do not know if the employees were out of line or if it was an accident.

Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.


Until you are the one on the receiving end of the shoplifting, fark your hat. Shoplifting is stealing, theft of another persons property where in several states, you can be shot dead for doing such. But because its a corporation here come the bleeding hearts. I had a woman try and run me over while shoplifting. I wasn't even the person trying to stop her, I just happened to be leaving the time. Over a $400 computer. When the cop showed up I was asked SIX times if she even grazed me, because it would be easier to prosecute for assault than the shoplifting. And she got probation for it.

I envy countries where they cut peoples hands off for shoplifting.
 
2012-11-26 09:53:02 AM  

DownDaRiver: Why weren't they charged?
Dude died, it says they they were on him when the cops arrived. Witnesses say a choke hold hold was/maybe used. That's assult if nothing else.
Do Wal-Mart employees get the same kind of pass that cops do when they kill someone?


I think it's because you want to do an investigation. Was the person saying they used a choke hold credible. Are there any CCTVs that show what happened and before you go and charge people with murder you're going to want to know how the person died. Just because people like to rush to judgment doesn't mean you want the investigators doing the same thing.
 
2012-11-26 09:54:20 AM  
csb

I did LP for a local grocery chain in Texas. One guy on camera, another to back him up at the door for the stop. 90% of the time they would throw their hands up and go back to the holding room quietly. About once a day we would have a runner, those you tackle. About 10% of the runners, you would have a fighter. Sometimes the fights got bad, real bad. Broke one arm, a few noses and made a few people just bleed a hellova lot. After a year of doing this I told a guy I was working with "you do know that eventually were going to end up killing somebody right?" I was there for two years, paid $8 bucks an hour which was good for security at the time, but not worth the eventual lawsuits, and absolutely no healthcare for when I would get hurt tackling somebody.

Anyways this is why most LP departments have a "hands off" policy. Want to run? go right ahead, not worth it to chase you.
 
2012-11-26 09:54:38 AM  
If you try to steal things and get caught in the process leading to an altercation that results in your death.

That is your fault. Period.
 
2012-11-26 09:54:48 AM  
The barbarians here are sure cheering the Reaper today.
 
2012-11-26 10:00:10 AM  

randomjsa: If you try to steal things and get caught in the process leading to an altercation that results in your death.

That is your fault. Period.


This isn't Riyadh. There are ways to deal with this without violence.

Those guys better hope they have sparkling clean records and that the dead guy had an undiagnosed heart defect, because that might take some of the wind out of the massive wrongful death suit that will be brought by his survivors.
 
2012-11-26 10:06:17 AM  

randomjsa: If you try to steal things and get caught in the process leading to an altercation that results in your death.

That is your fault. Period.


Just like with many other criminals, they should charge the thief with murder because his actions lead to the death of someone during the commission of his crime.
 
2012-11-26 10:09:10 AM  
This was the perfect opportunity for something like, "Shoplifter with 2 DVD players decides to check out instead."
 
2012-11-26 10:14:46 AM  

Happy Hours: ExcaliburPrime111: I find it difficult to believe that the police would not arrest the person who allegedly applied a choke hold if the victim died from it

Why? That's standard police procedure in many departments?


Did the police put you in choke holds and kill you when you got your DUI's?
 
2012-11-26 10:29:56 AM  
Nice that the "security" is a third party, gives Wal Mart that plausible deniability avenue. sure you can sue, but heck, we're suing them also...
 
2012-11-26 10:31:31 AM  

Asa Phelps: department. what the hell has happened when i can spell correctly but it's the wrong words?


Small stroke.

Stage 2 or Stage 3 of Alzheimer's

/Just try to ignore it. That's what I do.
 
2012-11-26 10:38:24 AM  
One less Democrat... Too soon?
 
2012-11-26 10:39:14 AM  

JohnCarter: Nice that the "security" is a third party, gives Wal Mart that plausible deniability avenue. sure you can sue, but heck, we're suing them also...


"Security" on the busiest shopping weekend of the year is about the only time they are added, and its usually off duty cops getting extra pay, which obviously here it wasn't
 
2012-11-26 10:45:19 AM  

untaken_name: fusillade762: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life,"

Especially not two DVD players. What are they these days, $20?

Apparently the guy was willing to risk his life to steal them rather than just pay for them like a normal person. I'm not saying he should have expected the particular response that he got, just that he should have known he was risking a response. How hard is it to NOT steal? I don't remember the last time I read an article about a shopkeeper or employee killing someone for buying something.


How hard is it not to murder someone over some slave assembled doodad?
 
2012-11-26 10:46:49 AM  

dickfreckle: Do you realize what you're saying? You're blaming the victim in the same way saying a prostitute wouldn't have been choked to death if she weren't out there plying the trade. Both prostitution and shoplifting are crimes, but do they warrant death?...Nevertheless, the fact that you intimate that this is all his fault is pretty damn repugnant.


It doesn't strike me as repugnant at all. Resistance is not only an outcome of stealing somebody's stuff that any remotely reasonable person would know is a possibility, but it's usually authorized by law. Likewise, any reasonable person realizes that when you're in a violent struggle with someone, things can happen and you can be seriously hurt or even killed.

He wasn't randomly attacked by a pervert or robbed for his cash, violence was a direct and predictable consequence of his choice. The prostitute example is not comparable. It's absolutely his fault. He bought his tickets. I say let him crash.
 
2012-11-26 10:50:12 AM  

ox45tallboy: vrax: ox45tallboy: vrax: What's a "DVD" player?!

It's a thingy that plays the discs they use to make the torrent files you download to watch on your computer. You don't really need one unless the HDMI cable from your laptop is too short to reach the TV.

[i49.tinypic.com image 235x163]

Okay, then, it's like a digital download, only it comes on a disc and you have to pay way too much for it and sit through an FBI warning in five languages and four commercials that you can't skip for other DVD's you are expected to purchase.


I thought you were required to purchase those DVDs. Else someone comes and murders you.
 
2012-11-26 10:53:09 AM  

PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.


So if you bump into me on the street and I kill you we must keep in mind that it was you that put these actions into motion by bumping into me. Nobody made you do it. And the fact remains that if you hadn't bumped into me you wouldn't be dead. That's some brilliant brain usage right there.
 
2012-11-26 10:56:36 AM  

trappedspirit: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

So if you bump into me on the street and I kill you we must keep in mind that it was you that put these actions into motion by bumping into me. Nobody made you do it. And the fact remains that if you hadn't bumped into me you wouldn't be dead. That's some brilliant brain usage right there.


No. If Walsmart hadn't put that store there, the guy wouldn't have had to be murdered.
 
2012-11-26 11:11:38 AM  

Mock26: rkelley25: Another person joins the "I'm never buying at Walmart again" boycott.

He also joins the "another criminal who will never commit a crime again" club.



Unless they just forgot to remove the anti-theft tags (which happens a LOT) in which case:

He joins the "just another unlucky s.o.b." club.
 
2012-11-26 11:15:37 AM  
"No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement, according to the Journal-Constitution. "Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk."

You hear that? They just announced they're giving away free DVD players at Walmart. If you don't already have one, it's time to go get one.
 
2012-11-26 11:29:50 AM  

randomjsa: If you try to steal things and get caught in the process leading to an altercation that results in your death.

That is your fault. Period.



Yep. Had one of the security guys died, the shoplifter would have been charged with murder.

As it is, this guy should be charged with his own murder.


/Life sentence
 
2012-11-26 12:00:01 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Someone is getting sued for wrongful death... I'll give you a hint... it sounds like Ball Fart


Oh, man I thought I was in trouble there for a second. Don't do that to me.
 
2012-11-26 12:03:38 PM  

red5ish: Fark Me Runnin: We almost made it through a black Friday weekend without a Walmart death.

Almost.

If you don't count the Walmart employee who was trampled to death in Long Island.
Link


2008 story is old..
 
2012-11-26 12:15:07 PM  
If you aren't supposed to stop anyone who is trying to steal shiat, why bother having anyone at all in loss prevention???
 
2012-11-26 12:20:08 PM  

900RR: If you aren't supposed to stop anyone who is trying to steal shiat, why bother having anyone at all in loss prevention???


As with all crimes you are supposed to not resist at all. Just let the criminal do whatever they want, you wouldn't want to hurt a criminal in commission of a crime because that would just be wrong.
 
2012-11-26 12:20:55 PM  

trappedspirit: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

So if you bump into me on the street and I kill you we must keep in mind that it was you that put these actions into motion by bumping into me. Nobody made you do it. And the fact remains that if you hadn't bumped into me you wouldn't be dead. That's some brilliant brain usage right there.


That's a pretty retarded comparison seeing as "bumping" isn't a crime.

White knighting a thief. There's a new one.

/one less criminal in the world
 
2012-11-26 12:25:04 PM  

peterthx: trappedspirit: PaLarkin: Maybe the Walmart loss prevention people overreacted. Maybe they didn't. Did the guy try to fight the store employees or not? The article doesn't say. Let's assume for the moment the Walmart people overreacted. The fact remains if they guy hadn't tried to steal the dvd players, he wouldn't be dead right now. He brought it on himself. Nobody made him go in there and steal.

So if you bump into me on the street and I kill you we must keep in mind that it was you that put these actions into motion by bumping into me. Nobody made you do it. And the fact remains that if you hadn't bumped into me you wouldn't be dead. That's some brilliant brain usage right there.

That's a pretty retarded comparison seeing as "bumping" isn't a crime.

White knighting a thief. There's a new one.

/one less criminal in the world


Oh, wow, this is tough to figure out. Ok, so I cut you off in traffic and at the next light you intentionally ram my car. I thought people could use their brains and see how to extrapolate this situation.
 
2012-11-26 12:28:10 PM  
Death, it's one of the risk you take when you decide to become a common thief. Just like jail time, the price you pay for doing illegal things.
 
2012-11-26 12:32:50 PM  
The killer(s) will have to live with the legal, professional, and emotional fallout for the rest of their lives. But at least that guy didn't get away with a few bucks worth of stuff!
 
2012-11-26 12:49:31 PM  

Tumunga: His family just hit the Powerball jackpot.

I wish one of my dumb kids would love me enough to do that for me.


Walmart's going to write this family a very large check to make them go away. Having one of your loss-prevention employees go completely aggro and basically kill a guy over 70 bucks worth of merchandise looks bad. And who the hell steals DVD players anymore?

This is what happens when you fail to run background checks on employes or fail to properly train staff.
 
2012-11-26 01:00:04 PM  
Shoplifters of the world, unite and take over.
 
2012-11-26 01:13:56 PM  

What_Would_Jimi_Do: what else would expect being caught stealing? and everyone blames walmart? sounds like he wasn't in the best of health to begin with.


dougernst.files.wordpress.com

I got a mat I would like to sell ya
 
2012-11-26 01:33:41 PM  
K-mart security. 2 guys walk to the back, pick up a canoe, and walk to the front and out the door. Security runs out 5 minutes later.

Wal-mart. Security runs after a guy with two dvd players and maybe kills him. Customers were involved too. Possibly sparking a future lawsuit from the guy's family.

K-marts way is less expensive.
 
2012-11-26 01:46:58 PM  
Personally. I think if they are going to have security do things like this.

Hire the ones that guard concerts.

Or at least one I know.

She's allowed to carry

stun-gun
club
a blade/her choice.

The blade doesn't require paperwork (at her job) if she uses it.

The club requires 30 minutes of explaining to a supervisor then writing a report about why she drew the club.

Stun gun just requires the report.

She's told stories about being two seconds behind people climbing over walls to get to concerts. And that when people see her and two other guards in mid-air right after her.. coming straight down on the first line-breaker. It's easy to keep the rest in line.
 
2012-11-26 01:47:58 PM  
Walmart has killed more people than marijuana.

Ban Walmart!
 
2012-11-26 02:03:18 PM  

trappedspirit: Oh, wow, this is tough to figure out. Ok, so I cut you off in traffic and at the next light you intentionally ram my car. I thought people could use their brains and see how to extrapolate this situation.


If you were using your brain you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous comparison.
 
2012-11-26 02:07:45 PM  

jayphat: theft of another persons property where in several states, you can be shot dead for doing such.


Please name one state in the United States in which a store employee is allowed to shoot a shoplifter.

Until then, we'll all point at you and laugh.

Look, I understand what it is like to be stolen from. And yes, I have felt like killing someone that stole from me. At the moment, I believed that I would be making the world a better place by removing that person from society.

But I didn't. I cannot morally justify killing someone for simply grabbing something of mine and running away without making a threat to my person. I am frightened that you can make that moral justification, and that you actually believe this is legal in some states. If you do own a gun, I would suggest you review applicable laws before you do something that might result in your incarceration, regardless of how morally justified you feel in doing it.
 
2012-11-26 02:10:43 PM  

gweilo8888: PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief. And the evil corporation should just give stuff away and it's their selfishness that caused this. How many of you would be so generous if it were your stuff the guy was stealing?

This. The hurr durr guntard and dogtard crowd are always in here baying about how they're going to shoot / sick their bloodthirsty mutt on anybody who much as steps on their property because self-defense, hero complex, constitutional amendments and FREEDUMZ!!!

Half of them would've taken this guy down for a pack of twinkies, let alone a couple bits of electronics. But the same folks will probably insist that this was totally different because it's stealing from somebody who's not them.


Just for that I'm going to sick my chihuahua on you while unleashing a few rounds from my rubber band gun in your general direction.
 
2012-11-26 02:12:16 PM  

randomjsa: If you try to steal things and get caught in the process leading to an altercation that results in your death.

That is your fault. Period.


If you post something on the Internet critical of some psychopathic person, and they track you down and do bad things to you, and it results in your death...

That is your fault. Period.

(Look, I'm not making any kind of threat here. I'm only pointing out the fallacy of your argument.)
 
2012-11-26 02:12:56 PM  

ChipNASA: Just like with many other criminals, they should charge the thief with murder because his actions lead to the death of someone during the commission of his crime.



Yeah, good luck prosecuting this one.
 
2012-11-26 02:15:13 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: I thought you were required to purchase those DVDs. Else someone comes and murders you.


Only if you watch them at someone else's house. Or if you're sitting at a red light and someone is playing it in the back seat of the car next to you.
 
2012-11-26 02:16:32 PM  

freewill: Resistance is not only an outcome of stealing somebody's stuff that any remotely reasonable person would know is a possibility, but it's usually authorized by law.


Resistance yes, deadly force, no. Please show me one state in which an employee is authorized to use deadly force against a shoplifter.
 
2012-11-26 02:26:30 PM  

ox45tallboy: Resistance yes, deadly force, no. Please show me one state in which an employee is authorized to use deadly force against a shoplifter.


No, but that's a question of intent, and that's not the question we're discussing here.

Whether or not the employee was authorized to use deadly force or not, it's just a reality that people sometimes get killed in violent struggles. A violent struggle is a known likely outcome of trying to steal something, to the point that this contingency is contemplated by the law.

You're choosing to enter a situation where, unless you conceal your actions, you can expect to be met with violence. That's your own fault. Nobody is deceiving you into walking into the fight.
 
2012-11-26 02:48:54 PM  

freewill: Whether or not the employee was authorized to use deadly force or not, it's just a reality that people sometimes get killed in violent struggles. A violent struggle is a known likely outcome of trying to steal something, to the point that this contingency is contemplated by the law.


Similarly, it's a reality that killing someone in a violent struggle absent a damn good reason (and trying to stop a suspected shoplifter does not qualify, here) typically earns you a manslaughter conviction and a lawsuit.
 
2012-11-26 02:50:28 PM  

ox45tallboy: jayphat: theft of another persons property where in several states, you can be shot dead for doing such.

Please name one state in the United States in which a store employee is allowed to shoot a shoplifter.

Until then, we'll all point at you and laugh.

Look, I understand what it is like to be stolen from. And yes, I have felt like killing someone that stole from me. At the moment, I believed that I would be making the world a better place by removing that person from society.

But I didn't. I cannot morally justify killing someone for simply grabbing something of mine and running away without making a threat to my person. I am frightened that you can make that moral justification, and that you actually believe this is legal in some states. If you do own a gun, I would suggest you review applicable laws before you do something that might result in your incarceration, regardless of how morally justified you feel in doing it.


ok i will bite

TEXAS!!!
 
2012-11-26 03:29:21 PM  

Duke_leto_Atredes: ok i will bite

TEXAS!!!


Or Florida, if you have Skittles and Arizona iced tea.
 
2012-11-26 03:31:20 PM  

China White Tea: Similarly, it's a reality that killing someone in a violent struggle absent a damn good reason (and trying to stop a suspected shoplifter does not qualify, here) typically earns you a manslaughter conviction and a lawsuit.


I'm not disagreeing. It doesn't necessarily absolve the other guy of blame.

Still, this guy would be alive today if he hadn't stolen something, and he had every reason to be aware of that possibility going in. The prostitute who gets strangled by a serial killer (the type of comparison scenario that prompted this conversation) may have run a statistical risk of running into that person, but violence wasn't part of the deal from the outset.

When you're stealing somebody's shiat, it is, and it could go very wrong. He died of Stupid.
 
2012-11-26 03:37:11 PM  

peterthx: trappedspirit: Oh, wow, this is tough to figure out. Ok, so I cut you off in traffic and at the next light you intentionally ram my car. I thought people could use their brains and see how to extrapolate this situation.

If you were using your brain you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous comparison.


i141.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-26 03:42:45 PM  

ox45tallboy: Please show me one state in which an employee is authorized to use deadly force against a shoplifter.


Any state, if the shoplifter put the employee under threat of harm. We don't have any details of the confrontation. If he grabbed or threatened an employee, the employee can defend himself, regardless of store policy. In no state are you required to passively allow someone to harm to you.

Since we have zero details of what actually happened, getting outraged at this point is sort of silly.
 
2012-11-26 03:51:13 PM  

ox45tallboy: Or Florida, if you have Skittles and Arizona iced tea and are bashing someone's skull into the pavement.

 
2012-11-26 04:26:30 PM  
Wow. Many of you are extremely sick. If stealing justifies murder, why isn't it law? OH WAIT, could it be because you are (as stated earlier in the thread) armchair tough guys? I feel that any of you saying 'meh' or 'he deserved it' without thinking about circumstances OR EVEN IF HE WAS JUST AN ASSHOLE THIEF, are people I would rather be removed from society than the thief (meaning dead, jerks). The world doesn't need simple, reactionary quasi-sociopaths. DIAFS (soon)
 
2012-11-26 04:27:12 PM  
Oh and a special shoutout to randomjsa: you are scum.
 
2012-11-26 04:28:08 PM  

inclemency: Wow. Many of you are extremely sick. If stealing justifies murder, why isn't it law? OH WAIT, could it be because you are (as stated earlier in the thread) armchair tough guys? I feel that any of you saying 'meh' or 'he deserved it' without thinking about circumstances OR EVEN IF HE WAS JUST AN ASSHOLE THIEF, are people I would rather be removed from society than the thief (meaning dead, jerks). The world doesn't need simple, reactionary quasi-sociopaths. DIAFS (soon)


meh.
 
2012-11-26 05:02:37 PM  
It's really bizarre that the murderers haven't been arrested yet. I guess the police know who they are and where they live, but isn't it customary to keep someone in jail for crimes as serious as murder in the US?
 
2012-11-26 05:05:56 PM  

Mock26: rkelley25: Another person joins the "I'm never buying at Walmart again" boycott.

He also joins the "another criminal who will never commit a crime again" club.


Ill go with this. Sure this crime is pretty small, but lets face it...theres a real good chance he had quite a history, as most criminals tend to, and likely its someone society really didnt need around.

On the other hand, it could have been some out of work father just trying to do anything he could to make the kids happy for Christmas...

...but Im gonna bet on the first one.
 
2012-11-26 05:15:29 PM  

trappedspirit: peterthx: trappedspirit: Oh, wow, this is tough to figure out. Ok, so I cut you off in traffic and at the next light you intentionally ram my car. I thought people could use their brains and see how to extrapolate this situation.

If you were using your brain you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous comparison.

[i141.photobucket.com image 600x400]


I think trappedspirit is a kleptomaniac and is afraid now of getting his clock punched-in for good.

/even a bleeding heart thinks you overdo it
 
2012-11-26 05:35:46 PM  

Sultan Of Herf: Mock26: rkelley25: Another person joins the "I'm never buying at Walmart again" boycott.

He also joins the "another criminal who will never commit a crime again" club.

Ill go with this. Sure this crime is pretty small, but lets face it...theres a real good chance he had quite a history, as most criminals tend to, and likely its someone society really didnt need around.

On the other hand, it could have been some out of work father just trying to do anything he could to make the kids happy for Christmas...

...but Im gonna bet on the first one.


Gambing is illegal in many places. Maybe an arrest is warranted. Backed by violence or death , of course.

Sure it may seem like a small crime but society is better off without those that scoff at the law.
 
2012-11-26 05:45:57 PM  

Sultan Of Herf: Ill go with this. Sure this crime is pretty small, but lets face it...theres a real good chance he had quite a history, as most criminals tend to, and likely its someone society really didnt need around.

On the other hand, it could have been some out of work father just trying to do anything he could to make the kids happy for Christmas...

...but Im gonna bet on the first one.


Having spent two years of my life living and working in the Lithonia area, and having shopped at this particular Wal-Mart before, I readily agree that a higher percentage of people there than I have found in most other locations are individuals which I believe society would be (in my opinion) "better" without.

However, I am not entitled to make that judgement call based on my own ideas of what society may or may not be. I don't get to decide that this person has no right to life based on their actions. We are in a civilized society and we have courts to do that for us.

At least until...

www.firstshowing.net
"I am the law"


And even in that society, only the Judges are given that right - ordinary citizens, no matter if they are the victim of a crime, still don't get to decide someone else's life or death.
 
2012-11-26 05:57:33 PM  

freewill: You're choosing to enter a situation where, unless you conceal your actions, you can expect to be met with violence. That's your own fault. Nobody is deceiving you into walking into the fight.


No. The violence was initiated by the security personnel. There is nothing about this story that indicates the (we'll just assume he's guilty) shoplifter would have had any reason to harm or threaten to harm the employees until they initiated the physical confrontation.

Do you guys feel that the NFL players that are suffering after effects of all those blows to the head are SOL? They went into what they knew was a violent sport, shouldn't they just take the concussions and mental problems later in life as part of what they should have expected?

The extrapolation of this position is that if you allow stores to kill shoplifters (or allow them to rationalize a death as "he put up a struggle when we were restraining him"), at what point do they become not liable for the death of an innocent person, such as someone dressed very similar to the actual shoplifter, or when the store failed to properly deactivate the anti-theft protections on a DVD?

And what kind of a person would go this far over $40 of someone else's stuff, when they're getting paid $8-10 hr. and WON'T be getting a bonus for this heroic act of loss prevention? F*ck it man, let 'em go.
 
2012-11-26 06:01:00 PM  

ox45tallboy: I cannot morally justify killing someone for simply grabbing something of mine and running away without making a threat to my person.


Cool. Then you let people steal shiat from you and get away, while everyone else shoots thieves dead. I'm sure that'll work out well for you.
 
2012-11-26 06:05:12 PM  
Blue-lipped special on aisle 5!
 
2012-11-26 06:09:19 PM  

fredklein: Cool. Then you let people steal shiat from you and get away, while everyone else shoots thieves dead. I'm sure that'll work out well for you.


I didn't say I wouldn't try to stop them. But taking another person's life over a nonviolent property crime is not a sign of a very advanced society.
 
2012-11-26 06:10:04 PM  
PiffMan420

I wish one of my dumb kids would love me enough to do that for me.

Walmart's going to write this family a very large check to make them go away. Having one of your loss-prevention employees go completely aggro and basically kill a guy over 70 bucks worth of merchandise looks bad. And who the hell steals DVD players anymore?


So you're saying the reputation of Wal Mart will rise in the Fark community?
 
2012-11-26 06:15:02 PM  

ox45tallboy: fredklein: Cool. Then you let people steal shiat from you and get away, while everyone else shoots thieves dead. I'm sure that'll work out well for you.

I didn't say I wouldn't try to stop them.


...and if they struggle? Would you fight back?

If Yes, then you might well end up killing them, depending on circumstances. If No, then you're letting them get away with your stuff.
 
2012-11-26 06:23:04 PM  

Buffalo77: PiffMan420

I wish one of my dumb kids would love me enough to do that for me.

Walmart's going to write this family a very large check to make them go away. Having one of your loss-prevention employees go completely aggro and basically kill a guy over 70 bucks worth of merchandise looks bad. And who the hell steals DVD players anymore?

So you're saying the reputation of Wal Mart will rise in the Fark community?


Have you seen the number of White Knights in the Black Friday strike threads? It seems that some Farkers believe they can do no wrong.
 
2012-11-26 06:27:33 PM  

Makh: FTFA: both employees had been placed on paid leave.

Sweet, free vacation too.


more like paid time to find another job, so they can quit before they get fired, hope they take the hint
 
2012-11-26 06:31:11 PM  

fredklein: ...and if they struggle? Would you fight back?

If Yes, then you might well end up killing them, depending on circumstances. If No, then you're letting them get away with your stuff.


To a certain extent. But there is a point at which I would say "f*ck it".

But you see, what I would do to protect my own stuff isn't at all relevant to this case. While I might take on a burglar in the middle of the night, I would not expect someone I was paying to guard my stuff to use deadly force, or basically ANY force in order to protect my stuff. I CERTAINLY would not expect them to escalate a physical confrontation to the point in which they were "threatened" enough to use deadly force. For their own protection, I would not want them involved in a confrontation of that nature.

How hard is it to train the security personnel that if they are "in fear for their life" to the point at which they feel the "stand your ground" rules apply, LET THE F*CKER GO instead of using deadly force?
 
2012-11-26 06:47:52 PM  

bel4sucks: PaLarkin: I'm sure somebody here will post something saying I'm a mean, cruel, heartless person because I don't feel sorry for the poor little thief.

You're not any of those things, you're just a pussy. But hey, you can be the one to put money on this guy's commissary while he sits in county for 5 years (on the taxpayers tit no less) because he killed someone who was shoplifting.


sounds good to me too
 
2012-11-26 07:09:45 PM  

ox45tallboy: I would not expect someone I was paying to guard my stuff to use deadly force, or basically ANY force in order to protect my stuff. I CERTAINLY would not expect them to escalate a physical confrontation...


Do you own a store? If so, where? I'm sure there are a few (hundred) shoplifters who would love to 'shop' there, knowing they won't be stopped.
 
2012-11-26 07:44:07 PM  

ox45tallboy: No. The violence was initiated by the security personnel. There is nothing about this story that indicates the (we'll just assume he's guilty) shoplifter would have had any reason to harm or threaten to harm the employees until they initiated the physical confrontation.


It's broadly uncontroversial that you can use reasonable amounts of force to stop someone from committing a crime, although there's obviously plenty of room for interpretation though. That someone is stealing is generally sufficient cause to initiate that confrontation. We're not talking about deadly force, but that's the point: people make mistakes. Accidents happen. The guy falls down and hits his head and develops a fatal hematoma. Whatever. I doubt that the store employees went into this planning to kill the guy (although the manslaughter charge that may come from the fact that they did is certainly something they should have expected knowing that accidentally killing the guy is always a possibility in a struggle).

You're going into a situation where you know that you not only have no legal right to be in, but that other people have the legal right to force you to stop. Whatever comes out of that, you were the one who made it happen and you could have avoided it by simply not doing the dumbass thing you should not have been doing. Regardless of the outcome, you're the root of the problem for forcing people to make a difficult choice about whether or not they are willing to be wrongly victimized by you today.

Do you guys feel that the NFL players that are suffering after effects of all those blows to the head are SOL? They went into what they knew was a violent sport, shouldn't they just take the concussions and mental problems later in life as part of what they should have expected?

This is a little different because it's an activity that is legal and consensual for everyone involved (where you're subverting someone else's rights against their will by stealing) but it's really not a matter of whether I feel that you should be SOL or not. If you enter a sport knowing that you're going to get hit in the head a lot, I'm sure we can both agree that it's common knowledge that getting hit in the head a lot is bad for you.

Regardless of any legal or moral theories you want to apply to the situation, you are getting hit in the head a lot and you will suffer the consequences. No amount of money in a legal settlement will reverse the brain damage, so if you don't want that to happen, you need to do something where you don't get hit in the head a lot.

That does not strike me as something that a reasonable person can find fault with. If you drive your car off a cliff into a volcano, yes, you're SOL. It'd be neat if we could make a world where you aren't, but we don't live in that world. You're dead. You're done. Death by misadventure. This is an ex-parrot.

/ Now, if you can show that the truth about the risks is known to others but is being suppressed in order to trick the athletes into taking those risks, that changes things a lot.
 
2012-11-26 08:00:59 PM  

ox45tallboy: If you can justify killing someone simply on the principal that "it was mine", I'm not sure if you are ready to be a part of society.


If you think you can take someone else's property, neither are you. Property rights are the foundation of all freedoms.
 
2012-11-26 08:03:02 PM  

freewill: / Now, if you can show that the truth about the risks is known to others but is being suppressed in order to trick the athletes into taking those risks, that changes things a lot.


Meh, they have helmets.
 
2012-11-26 08:07:22 PM  

freewill: / Now, if you can show that the truth about the risks is known to others but is being suppressed in order to trick the athletes into taking those risks, that changes things a lot.


That's another discussion entirely. But this thread is about Wal-Mart.

freewill: You're going into a situation where you know that you not only have no legal right to be in, but that other people have the legal right to force you to stop.


Let's examine this in a little more detail. Here's a story with more details about what actually happened. (WARNING: Autoplay!)

First off, for all the haters, they were Blu-Ray players.

Next off, the guy had them in a bag, and was stopped by a manager at the door who demanded a receipt. (This happened to me a few days ago when my BIL paid for the merchandise, stuck his receipt in his pocket, and went back to find my sister who was in another line. I was stopped at the door and had to sit there with my 3-year-old nephew because I didn't have a receipt. He had left his phone in the car, so I had to wait for him to grab a couple of more items and find my sister so she could tell him to bring the receipt to the door).

Anyways, the guy walked past the manager, who proceeded to grab him by his hoodie and throw him on the ground. The guy came up swinging (which I can't fault; he had just been assaulted), hit the manager a couple of times, and was immediately tackled by the other employee and the security guard. Apparently at one point they had him off the ground by his head and his feet.

(This is why I waited for my BIL with the receipt.)

Anyways, this does not sound like normal and appropriate conduct for someone failing to show a receipt. He has a Wal-Mart bag, so it follows that he likely made some kind of purchase there. No one has provided evidence that he actually shoplifted the Blu-Ray players.

And before anyone else brings it up, here's the story from 1999 about the guy that didn't want to show his receipt at Best Buy.
 
2012-11-26 08:17:06 PM  

untaken_name: If you think you can take someone else's property, neither are you. Property rights are the foundation of all freedoms.


But an immediate sentence of death, or actions that may likely cause someone's death, separate from the criminal justice system we have put in place in our society, is unacceptable. While you may feel someone needs a-killin' you can't take the law into your own hands and kill them yourselves, or act in a manner that might result in their death. I don't car if they just stole your new i-Whatever with the only copy of your Master's Thesis - you can't kill them or act in a way likely to result in their death. We have police officers we pay to beat the crap out of them and taze them and so forth, district attorneys we pay to prosecute them, judges we pay to incarcerate them, and private prisons we pay to outsource their labor at slave wages. We don't cheat the hangman 'round here.

Please read the link I posted above to a more detailed story (or watch the damn autoplaying video, it's basically a reporter reading the article). The man was grabbed by his hoodie from behind and thrown to ground for failing to show his receipt for items he had in his bag. He came up swinging to defend himself, as many would be doing if assaulted from behind in a Black Friday crowd. The others stepped in to defend the manager who was actually the one to first initiate the physical confrontation.

For all of you people saying "if he hadn't have shoplifted" (I know, you're saying "hadn't of" because you don't know any better), think about "if the manager had handled it differently."
 
2012-11-26 08:25:13 PM  
For all those who want to put a face on the guy, here's an article with his name and picture and an interview with his wife.

His wife says that he had a drug problem and was likely shoplifting to support his drug habit. She doesn't even try to say that there was no evidence he was actually shoplifting, but assumes it to be the case. And that's his wife.
 
2012-11-26 08:44:14 PM  

ox45tallboy: untaken_name: If you think you can take someone else's property, neither are you. Property rights are the foundation of all freedoms.

But an immediate sentence of death, or actions that may likely cause someone's death, separate from the criminal justice system we have put in place in our society, is unacceptable. While you may feel someone needs a-killin' you can't take the law into your own hands and kill them yourselves, or act in a manner that might result in their death. I don't car if they just stole your new i-Whatever with the only copy of your Master's Thesis - you can't kill them or act in a way likely to result in their death. We have police officers we pay to beat the crap out of them and taze them and so forth, district attorneys we pay to prosecute them, judges we pay to incarcerate them, and private prisons we pay to outsource their labor at slave wages. We don't cheat the hangman 'round here.

Please read the link I posted above to a more detailed story (or watch the damn autoplaying video, it's basically a reporter reading the article). The man was grabbed by his hoodie from behind and thrown to ground for failing to show his receipt for items he had in his bag. He came up swinging to defend himself, as many would be doing if assaulted from behind in a Black Friday crowd. The others stepped in to defend the manager who was actually the one to first initiate the physical confrontation.

For all of you people saying "if he hadn't have shoplifted" (I know, you're saying "hadn't of" because you don't know any better), think about "if the manager had handled it differently."


His wife should have blown him last night. So it's her fault.
 
2012-11-26 08:51:18 PM  

inclemency: Wow. Many of you are extremely sick. If stealing justifies murder, why isn't it law? OH WAIT, could it be because you are (as stated earlier in the thread) armchair tough guys? I feel that any of you saying 'meh' or 'he deserved it' without thinking about circumstances OR EVEN IF HE WAS JUST AN ASSHOLE THIEF, are people I would rather be removed from society than the thief (meaning dead, jerks). The world doesn't need simple, reactionary quasi-sociopaths. DIAFS (soon)


If a person thinks that a thief deserves unforeseen consequences to their actions, then you hope that person dies in a fire or is removed from society?

That doesn't sound hypocritical at all.
 
2012-11-26 08:52:56 PM  

ox45tallboy: Let's examine this in a little more detail. Here's a story with more details about what actually happened. (WARNING: Autoplay!)


To be clear, I'm totally on board with the possibility that there's more to this than the scenario we're hypothesizing about. The original context, as I understood it, was a broader discussion about whether or not it's fair to assign blame to a criminal for coming to harm when people try to stop his crime. A comparison was made to blaming a prostitute for getting murdered by a customer, which does not seem analogous to me at all. The situation you describe does sound like a farked up one.

ox45tallboy: While you may feel someone needs a-killin' you can't take the law into your own hands and kill them yourselves, or act in a manner that might result in their death.


Except that in certain cases, in all states that I'm familiar with, the law does defer to that. There are some crimes so heinous (namely, the forcible felonies, like rape, robbery, and murder) that preventing a person's victimization trumps the operation of the process. We are not completely subverted to the system such that we are expected to sit quietly and suffer terrible crimes or allow others to suffer them until the system gets around to trying wrongs which cannot be remedied, and sometimes, a criminal's actions are such that lethal force is the minimum effective response to stop the crime.

/ Shoplifting is not one of those crimes, for good reason.
 
2012-11-26 09:02:55 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: If a person thinks that a thief deserves unforeseen consequences to their actions, then you hope that person dies in a fire or is removed from society?


I think it's the word "unforeseen" that makes this issue turn.

To me, getting your ass kicked is simply not an unforeseeable consequence of stealing shiat. Dying of your injuries is not an unforeseeable consequence of getting your ass kicked.

The law may be on your side, but that's little comfort to the dead. There is no contradiction in believing that it is just to prosecute the manager for the attack while acknowledging that the criminal willingly embraced his choices and brought about the circumstances that led to his own demise.

See what happens when you make bad decisions. Don't shoplift and die at the hands of an overzealous manager. Sign up for DirecTV.
 
2012-11-26 10:11:16 PM  

ox45tallboy: For all of you people saying "if he hadn't have shoplifted" (I know, you're saying "hadn't of" because you don't know any better), think about "if the manager had handled it differently."


What would there have been for him to handle without the initial criminal act?
 
2012-11-26 10:37:00 PM  

untaken_name: What would there have been for him to handle without the initial criminal act?


Well, if you check out the link I provided above, it now appears to this being the old "is it legal to demand customer show receipt at the door" discussion.

The other link I provided has an interview with his wife, who admits he had a drug problem and was likely shoplifting to support said problem. So we can also devolve the discussion to the War on Drugs and whether society would have benefitted had he been given treatment for his addiction.

I think it is obvious that (trolls excepted) no one really thinks that this was the best way for the situation to play out. So what can be done to prevent this from happening again? With the drug situation the way it is, some crackhead will likely try to steal from a store before the week is out. Store owners deserve to not have their merchandise stolen, but drug addicts don't deserve to die. What do we do?
 
2012-11-26 11:35:03 PM  

ox45tallboy: untaken_name: What would there have been for him to handle without the initial criminal act?

Well, if you check out the link I provided above, it now appears to this being the old "is it legal to demand customer show receipt at the door" discussion.

The other link I provided has an interview with his wife, who admits he had a drug problem and was likely shoplifting to support said problem. So we can also devolve the discussion to the War on Drugs and whether society would have benefitted had he been given treatment for his addiction.

I think it is obvious that (trolls excepted) no one really thinks that this was the best way for the situation to play out. So what can be done to prevent this from happening again? With the drug situation the way it is, some crackhead will likely try to steal from a store before the week is out. Store owners deserve to not have their merchandise stolen, but drug addicts don't deserve to die. What do we do?


True or false: This man would have been tackled and beaten to death even if he had not shoplifted.

I mean, I hear you, man. It's always easier to blame society. But there are millions of drug addicts who don't steal, and millions of thieves who aren't drug addicts, so I don't think one causes the other. I think people with tendencies to steal tend to steal to accomplish whatever goals they have. Just like people who have tendencies to work hard will tend to work hard to accomplish their goals, whatever they are. I don't think we're talking about instituting the death penalty for theft - but accidents happen. And if you're putting yourself in a situation where accidents are more likely to happen, then you can't really turn around and get mad when one happens to you. If you want a long, healthy life, you should MINIMIZE your risks. If you don't do that, then you shouldn't expect a long, healthy life. You might get one, by chance, but you shouldn't expect one.
 
2012-11-26 11:46:37 PM  

untaken_name: True or false: This man would have been tackled and beaten to death even if he had not shoplifted


I don't know the answer to that. The link I posted above says that he was thrown to the ground from behind because he didn't show his receipt. Did the manager who threw him to the ground actually see him shoplift? Did he receive second-hand information from a plainclothes security person or camera operator that merely provided a physical description? I feel these questions are relevant, as this might play into how ordinary people who are NOT shoplifting might expect to be treated if they are accused of such.

And who knows? You might be dressed exactly the same as the next person who shoplifts while you're at the store.
 
2012-11-26 11:55:09 PM  

ox45tallboy: For all those who want to put a face on the guy, here's an article with his name and picture and an interview with his wife.

His wife says that he had a drug problem and was likely shoplifting to support his drug habit. She doesn't even try to say that there was no evidence he was actually shoplifting, but assumes it to be the case. And that's his wife.


Estranged wife. Big difference in terms of likeliness to assume the best or the worst of him. (Though I'll admit that his 2011 shoplifting conviction strongly suggests it.)

Being picky about one other detail - the police report says that the "witness/manager "Mr. Micheal [sic] Burton" says all that happened is that he grabbed him from behind and threw him to the ground, and that in response he was struck in the face, neck, and chest. YMMV on whether the surveillance video will back him up on this, and as you said, even his own account places him as the aggressor.
 
2012-11-26 11:56:27 PM  

ox45tallboy: And who knows? You might be dressed exactly the same as the next person who shoplifts while you're at the store.


This goes back to risk mitigation. Things like this - that's why I shop online whenever possible and at light-traffic hours when it's not. Because, yes, there could be a risk anyway. However - I do what I can to MINIMIZE that risk, not add to it, such as a shoplifter does. Additionally, I would not attempt to evade the management, even were I mistakenly identified as a shoplifter. I'm just saying that you can minimize or increase your risk. This guy did many things to increase his. That's why I can't let him off the hook. Nor do I let the manager off the hook. He took risks as well, and should suffer their consequences also.
 
2012-11-27 12:28:21 AM  
If this was my store, I'd give the shoplifter the benefit of the doubt--I would give him a chance to lay down on the ground with his hands on top of his head before shooting him.
 
2012-11-27 12:44:32 AM  

untaken_name: Additionally, I would not attempt to evade the management, even were I mistakenly identified as a shoplifter.


So how far would you go? How long would you allow yourself to be detained by a private citizen (not law enforcement)? Would you willingly go back into the store to a secure location and be locked in while awaiting law enforcement? Would you allow a restraining device such as handcuffs to be placed on you? Would you submit to searching of your belongings? Your purse (or your wife's purse)? How about a pat-down? A search of your vehicle simply because it is on store property? And, if they didn't find what they were looking for, how about a strip search?

Most people agree that viewing one's receipt at the exit, and even looking into one's shopping bags to confirm that the merchandise in the bags is the same as what is on the receipt, is not a violation of one's person. However, I know of few women that would allow their purse to be searched by another private individual simply because that individual is "suspicious" that she might have stolen something. I know our children are being conditioned to accept strip searches at some schools for something as silly as a Tylenol that the school doesn't know about, but this does not mean that most adults will subject themselves to such an indignity, or that they should.

If we accept the manager's story as accurate, I still do not believe the manager acted appropriately by pulling the man to the concrete/asphalt of the parking lot backwards by his hoodie because he believed the man to have stolen something. What if he had been wrong?
 
2012-11-27 12:46:17 AM  

jedikinkoid: Estranged wife. Big difference in terms of likeliness to assume the best or the worst of him.


I get the impression that she really did find something she liked about him despite his faults, and she wasn't raised to speak ill of the dead.
 
2012-11-27 02:44:12 AM  

ox45tallboy: So how far would you go? How long would you allow yourself to be detained by a private citizen (not law enforcement)? Would you willingly go back into the store to a secure location and be locked in while awaiting law enforcement? Would you allow a restraining device such as handcuffs to be placed on you? Would you submit to searching of your belongings? Your purse (or your wife's purse)? How about a pat-down? A search of your vehicle simply because it is on store property? And, if they didn't find what they were looking for, how about a strip search?


All of the above, with appropriate documentation of them. That settlement would easily be large enough to set me up for life. Although, I would not do it "willingly", I would do it "peacefully in fear for my life if I did not". Always remember, kids, you have no standing in court without damages. Having said all of that, the one time I have been accused of shoplifting when I was not, none of that happened. When asked to come back in the store to speak to management, I simply stated that I had done nothing and I would wait outside the store while they reviewed the camera footage. It was an inconvenience, sure, but it only took about 5 minutes and they gave me a $5 gift card and apologized. I'm just saying, you can either minimize your risks or not. Your outcome will probably, although not certainly, be influenced by your choices.
 
2012-11-27 02:46:45 AM  

ox45tallboy: If we accept the manager's story as accurate, I still do not believe the manager acted appropriately by pulling the man to the concrete/asphalt of the parking lot backwards by his hoodie because he believed the man to have stolen something. What if he had been wrong?


He certainly did NOT act appropriately. Having said that, he is just as liable for the consequences of his actions as the shoplifter is. Whether or not he is found criminally liable, he will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life. Whether that will bother him or not depends on him and the state of his conscience.
 
2012-11-27 09:07:54 AM  

BadAdviceGuy: "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life," Gee said in the statement, according to the Journal-Constitution. "Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk."

You hear that? They just announced they're giving away free DVD players at Walmart. If you don't already have one, it's time to go get one.


Seems legit!

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-27 12:38:49 PM  

ox45tallboy: fredklein: Cool. Then you let people steal shiat from you and get away, while everyone else shoots thieves dead. I'm sure that'll work out well for you.

I didn't say I wouldn't try to stop them. But taking another person's life over a nonviolent property crime is not a sign of a very advanced society.


Can I get your address?
 
2012-11-28 01:44:15 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Can I get your address?


Sure. You want to try taking my crap when I'm home? You'll likely get at least an attempted beatdown, depending on how big you are. However, if you come in when I have paid security guards guarding my stuff, and the situation becomes violent, you will likely escape as I would never order people working for me to place their safety at risk over some of my crap.

Wal-Mart does allow their LP employees to be physically violent with shoplifters if they attempt to get away. I do not believe this is a good policy, and Wal-Mart may feel the need to review this policy depending on the outcome of this incident.
 
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