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(Yahoo)   Even more jobs shipped overseas as Triangle Shirtwaist Factory relocates to Bangladesh   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 89
    More: Sad, Bangladesh, Bangladeshi, police inspector, stars and stripes  
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6683 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Nov 2012 at 8:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-25 02:22:43 AM
Yeah, good luck with that.

a.abcnews.com
 
2012-11-25 02:56:47 AM
Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said


It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.
 
2012-11-25 06:59:25 AM
Americans don't give a shiat if people die outside of a 10 mile radius.

9/11 included.
 
2012-11-25 08:14:09 AM
What really worries me is when Three Mile Island becomes a third-world franchise operation.
 
2012-11-25 08:28:14 AM

RoyBatty: It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.


Can I get an Amen, from the audience?
Amen!
 
2012-11-25 08:30:07 AM
I hope the cost of the shirts burnt will be taken out of their final pay packets and not passed on to the western consumer
 
2012-11-25 08:30:18 AM
thats not funny.
 
2012-11-25 08:37:58 AM
Please refrain from smoking.
 
2012-11-25 08:38:07 AM

DiscoDJ: RoyBatty: It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

Can I get an Amen, from the audience? choir
Amen!

 
2012-11-25 08:43:10 AM
In the big picture, 101 years really isn't that long ago. After seven or eight measly decades, the big business interests merely moved elsewhere to kill people for profit since they couldn't do it as easily over here anymore. It'll sadly take a lot longer for common people in third world places such as this to rise up and demand to live humane lives than it did here.

Over here, the Right has managed to demonize labor unions and common people in general over the last 25 years, even convincing a large proportion that our downfall from an industrial society is the workers' faults. Don't be surprised if, over the next century, we'll see some of the things we take for granted rolled back so that big business interests can fark us over a little more easily. We're already there with 40-hour weeks being mostly a thing of the past for non-retail people.
 
2012-11-25 08:49:05 AM
I would love to see a catalog, by the way, of the exact garments made by this place. Out them, if they are destined for Wal-Mart!

Maybe this one was made there?

i471.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-25 08:50:00 AM

Ow My Balls: In the big picture, 101 years really isn't that long ago. After seven or eight measly decades, the big business interests merely moved elsewhere to kill people for profit since they couldn't do it as easily over here anymore. It'll sadly take a lot longer for common people in third world places such as this to rise up and demand to live humane lives than it did here.

Over here, the Right has managed to demonize labor unions and common people in general over the last 25 years, even convincing a large proportion that our downfall from an industrial society is the workers' faults. Don't be surprised if, over the next century, we'll see some of the things we take for granted rolled back so that big business interests can fark us over a little more easily. We're already there with 40-hour weeks being mostly a thing of the past for non-retail people.


Yep
 
2012-11-25 09:05:23 AM

RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.


I imagine their conditions are fairly similar to 101 years ago. Who is we? We learned something...get someone else to make our shiat.
 
2012-11-25 09:07:27 AM

Ow My Balls: I would love to see a catalog, by the way, of the exact garments made by this place. Out them, if they are destined for Wal-Mart!


But if they are destined for designer stores, or retail outlets that employ union workers, then shush your mouth. Right?
 
2012-11-25 09:30:15 AM

RoyBatty: 101 years and we've learned nothing.


101 years and American industrialists haven't changed.
 
2012-11-25 09:35:06 AM

edmo: RoyBatty: 101 years and we've learned nothing.

101 years and American industrialists haven't changed.


101 years and American Industrialists are still starting businesses expecting to make a profit...
 
2012-11-25 09:55:26 AM

RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.


once upon a time we had rules that didn't allow us to bring in goods from places that didn't have decent working wages and conditions. Americans had good jobs and there were far less imports.
Then our politicians sold us out to the multinationals.
 
2012-11-25 09:59:32 AM

Ow My Balls: In the big picture, 101 years really isn't that long ago. After seven or eight measly decades, the big business interests merely moved elsewhere to kill people for profit since they couldn't do it as easily over here anymore. It'll sadly take a lot longer for common people in third world places such as this to rise up and demand to live humane lives than it did here.

Over here, the Right has managed to demonize labor unions and common people in general over the last 25 years, even convincing a large proportion that our downfall from an industrial society is the workers' faults. Don't be surprised if, over the next century, we'll see some of the things we take for granted rolled back so that big business interests can fark us over a little more easily. We're already there with 40-hour weeks being mostly a thing of the past for non-retail people.


Or the labor unions decided to overstep their purpose and demand ridiculous things from the companies, therefore driving them to find another alternative.
 
2012-11-25 10:02:21 AM
So let's all jump on the bandwagon of "Less regulation" and the new catch phrase, "We need to
roll back regulations".. A certain pachyderm party had that a lot in their commercials.
The "Job Creators" keep blaming those pesky regulations for cutting into job growth..Ya...
 
2012-11-25 10:06:55 AM

Hobodeluxe: RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

once upon a time we had rules that didn't allow us to bring in goods from places that didn't have decent working wages and conditions. Americans had good jobs and there were far less imports.
Then our politicians sold us out to the multinationals.


Yes, the protective tariffs of the 1920s and 30s did so much for the working man.
 
2012-11-25 10:13:01 AM
We need two things...
tarrifs on imports (free trade is a non-sequetur), and self-deportation (if "people who are here illegally" can't get jobs, they will go back).
When my tax dollars no longer go to support a school system of 40% or more "people who are here illegally", then my tax dollars will go further. Like going to help African-Americans who got the short end, and are still getting it.
 
2012-11-25 10:15:46 AM

PreMortem: Americans don't give a shiat if people die outside of a 10 mile radius.

9/11 included.


if you put a little thought into your statement you'd realize people around the world maintain a small focused environment. some have no choice because they are not exposed to world events. those who have contact with readily updated media from multiple sources have to adopt a separation of self from the incessant flow of negative imagery and stories that flow. if they did not their humanity would suffer degradation, this would lead to depression and in time they would either become dysfunctional or suicidal. it's not Americans are cold and uncaring. it's that we live in a world where tragedy and suffering is a constant and to dwell upon same incessantly would have truly negative repercussions.

American consumers are going to buy and wear out t shirts, jeans and sneakers day after day regardless of where they are manufactured, or by whom. it is a very few corporate heads that make the decision to manufacture or purchase goods made in third world countries by women and children working in unsafe conditions. these corporate heads sell their souls to make these decisions, enjoy a large annual salary for doing same, all in the attempt to secure a return of profit for investors.

9/11 then, the foggy Texas highway deaths days ago. people can shed just so many tears. be thankful that you do have a thick skin protecting your senses else you'd have slit your wrists wide open long ago. a/k/a Lighten up, Francis.
 
2012-11-25 10:17:01 AM

DiscoDJ: We need two things...
tarrifs on imports (free trade is a non-sequetur), and self-deportation (if "people who are here illegally" can't get jobs, they will go back).
When my tax dollars no longer go to support a school system of 40% or more "people who are here illegally", then my tax dollars will go further. Like going to help African-Americans who got the short end, and are still getting it.


Just out of curiosity, in your mind, what does 'non sequitur' mean?
 
2012-11-25 10:22:08 AM
It's not like they're people.
 
2012-11-25 10:25:49 AM
Nice Rasputina reference in the URL, subby.
 
2012-11-25 10:44:22 AM
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE JOB CREATORS???

/ All Republicans are fapping to this fire because it happened under conditions they want to bring back to work places here in the US.
 
2012-11-25 10:48:39 AM

Mr. Shabooboo: So let's all jump on the bandwagon of "Less regulation" and the new catch phrase, "We need to
roll back regulations".. A certain pachyderm party had that a lot in their commercials.
The "Job Creators" keep blaming those pesky regulations for cutting into job growth..Ya...


Liberals tend to confuse regulations with standards. The regulations currently in place in the U.S. cost billions in compliance and a great many of them have no effect on the well-being of workers, the environment, or anything else. They are simply time and money wasting regulations that are in place for petty little bureaucrats to maintain control and justify their existence.

The item that most liberals miss is that those tons of regulations actually permit companies to get away with things like this fire. If something goes wrong that wasn't anticipated in the voluminous regulations and so long as the company can prove that it was, indeed, following the regulations, it is indemnified from most legal action.

Disasters such as this fire occur in places like Bangladesh (and, quite frankly at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory) because human life is held too cheaply when there is an over-abundance of it. China has almost no regulations to protect workers because for any worker killed, there are 2 dozen lined up outside to take his place. In the 1920s, this country had virtually opened its borders to any and all immigrants and labor was so abundant that companies treated them with utter disrespect.

What intelligent factory owners realized, however, was that better treatment of workers led to higher productivity and, consequently, higher profits. Henry Ford doubled the prevailing daily wage (without a union in sight) and switched to an 8 hour day because he wanted to be able to hire and keep the best workers and because he wanted to run his factories 24 hours a day and 8 hour shifts were more sustainable for workers than 12. Additionally, he figured that if he paid his workers enough and gave them a bit of free time, they would be able to afford to buy his cars and they would have some time to drive them around. In case you haven't heard, Ford started out not all that rich but he died fairly wealthy.

This fire is obviously a tragedy. But if one wants to stop these kind of factories from existing, consumers need to be willing to pay more for goods. As far as regulations, simply making the factory owner liable for wrongful death suits and the threat of stringent criminal prosecution for something like negligent homicide would do a lot more than a carload of regulations.

I know that unions get a lot of credit for improving working conditions but, in truth, a group that had a lot more effect and did a lot more work in actually defining and getting companies to adopt safer conditions and practices was the liability insurance industry. When companies became liable for injuries to workers on their premises, they wanted insurance against loss. Insurance companies are greedy, in case you haven't heard, and once they got possession of a company's premium dollars, they wanted to hang on to them. So they would refuse to insure a company unless it adopted better practices. Insurance companies did enormous amounts of research into better safety equipment, safety standards, etc. Most of the manufacturing companies with which I consulted over 25 years feared an insurance inspection more than an OSHA inspection.

But the bottom line is that an enlightened company owner will treat his employees with respect simply because it will, in the end, make him more money. Stupid company owners who treat their employees like crap will not succeed to the level of a more enlightened company owner. I found many instances in my working career of company owners who really were too dumb to be in charge but they stayed in business because they followed the letter, if not the spirit, of the voluminous regulations and hid behind that fact as a shield against better practices or attitudes. And, when the business climate is such that unemployment is high, they are free to treat employees like crap because the employees have nowhere better to go. Just like the Bangladeshi workers burned in the fire. Even if they knew it was a fire trap and a hazard to their health, with unemployment and the standard of living in Bangladesh being what it is, they had no choice but to work there.

If you want to improve worker conditions, allow the economy to improve.
 
2012-11-25 10:57:41 AM

Next week's Tom Sawyer: But if they are destined for designer stores, or retail outlets that employ union workers, then shush your mouth. Right?


No. Anywhere this stuff lands in Murrika is eligible for open season, in my opinion.
 
2012-11-25 10:59:01 AM

Hobodeluxe: RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

once upon a time we had rules that didn't allow us to bring in goods from places that didn't have decent working wages and conditions. Americans had good jobs and there were far less imports.
Then our politicians sold us out to the multinationals.


That's it? For a second there I thought it was our addiction to cheap consumer goods that was part of the problem. I thought manufacturing went to the cheapest supplier because we no longer cared where something was made as long as we could have the newest and cheapest stuff. I like this answer better because it means we can blame someone else.
 
2012-11-25 11:11:57 AM

tcan: That's it? For a second there I thought it was our addiction to cheap consumer goods that was part of the problem. I thought manufacturing went to the cheapest supplier because we no longer cared where something was made as long as we could have the newest and cheapest stuff. I like this answer better because it means we can blame someone else.


First came the physical ability, then legal ability, of big business interests to move manufacturing from our shores to some other place, then came our culture's ridiculous lust for abundant cheaply made goods. It was a matter of time, though.

The Earth will stop supplying feasible amounts of fossil fuels to keep this sort of thing going, however, and we'll once again be forced to grow and manufacture things more closely to where we'll be buying them. Reboot.
 
2012-11-25 11:12:01 AM

KrispyKritter: PreMortem: Americans don't give a shiat if people die outside of a 10 mile radius.

9/11 included.

if you put a little thought into your statement you'd realize people around the world maintain a small focused environment. some have no choice because they are not exposed to world events. those who have contact with readily updated media from multiple sources have to adopt a separation of self from the incessant flow of negative imagery and stories that flow. if they did not their humanity would suffer degradation, this would lead to depression and in time they would either become dysfunctional or suicidal. it's not Americans are cold and uncaring. it's that we live in a world where tragedy and suffering is a constant and to dwell upon same incessantly would have truly negative repercussions.

American consumers are going to buy and wear out t shirts, jeans and sneakers day after day regardless of where they are manufactured, or by whom. it is a very few corporate heads that make the decision to manufacture or purchase goods made in third world countries by women and children working in unsafe conditions. these corporate heads sell their souls to make these decisions, enjoy a large annual salary for doing same, all in the attempt to secure a return of profit for investors.

9/11 then, the foggy Texas highway deaths days ago. people can shed just so many tears. be thankful that you do have a thick skin protecting your senses else you'd have slit your wrists wide open long ago. a/k/a Lighten up, Francis.


I don't see how I should "lighten up".

Other than that, we are in agreement. Not sure why you seem to disagree. Obviously you haven't slit your wrists yet either.


/For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.
 
2012-11-25 11:24:37 AM
So were will we shop for this season's....hottest look?


/yeeeeeaaaaaahhhh
 
2012-11-25 11:24:47 AM
From the Wikipedia entry on the Triangle Shirtwaist fire:

The company's owners, Max Blanck and Isaac Harris, who survived the fire by fleeing to the building's roof when the fire began, were indicted on charges of first- and second-degree manslaughter in mid-April; the pair's trial began on December 4, 1911.[36] Max Steuer, counsel for the defendants, managed to destroy the credibility of one of the survivors, Kate Alterman, by asking her to repeat her testimony a number of times, which she did without altering key phrases. Steuer argued to the jury that Alterman and possibly other witnesses had memorized their statements, and might even have been told what to say by the prosecutors. The defense also stressed that the prosecution had failed to prove that the owners knew the exit doors were locked at the time in question. The jury acquitted the two men, but they lost a subsequent civil suit in 1913 in which plaintiffs won compensation in the amount of $75 per deceased victim. The insurance company paid Blanck and Harris about $60,000 more than the reported losses, or about $400 per casualty. In 1913, Blanck was once again arrested for locking the door in his factory during working hours. He was fined $20.[37]



A year or tow ago, there was a documentary on this in PBS or The History Channel. The granddaughter of one of the owners was interviewed. She said that while she was glad her grandfather didn't go to prison, if she had been a relative of one of those killed back then, she would have shot him to death.
 
2012-11-25 11:31:18 AM

Ow My Balls: In the big picture, 101 years really isn't that long ago. After seven or eight measly decades, the big business interests merely moved elsewhere to kill people for profit since they couldn't do it as easily over here anymore. It'll sadly take a lot longer for common people in third world places such as this to rise up and demand to live humane lives than it did here.

Over here, the Right has managed to demonize labor unions and common people in general over the last 25 years, even convincing a large proportion that our downfall from an industrial society is the workers' faults. Don't be surprised if, over the next century, we'll see some of the things we take for granted rolled back so that big business interests can fark us over a little more easily. We're already there with 40-hour weeks being mostly a thing of the past for non-retail people.


No, you don't just get to blame the right. When's the last time you looked at the label on your new shirt? When's the last time you checked that your favorite brand practices ethical sourcing? I mean, I haven't either, but unless American consumers demand fair labor practices, Asian countries won't implement them.
 
2012-11-25 11:32:56 AM

Ow My Balls: The Earth will stop supplying feasible amounts of fossil fuels to keep this sort of thing going, however, and we'll once again be forced to grow and manufacture things more closely to where we'll be buying them. Reboot.


That is going to be a huge mess when that happens.
 
2012-11-25 11:33:27 AM

DoctorCal: Just out of curiosity, in your mind, what does 'non sequitur' mean?

Aside from misspelling the word, I mean "an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises." Free trade is not free. The costs to the American economy in jobs, has been staggering.
 
2012-11-25 11:34:56 AM

Mr. Right:
Liberals tend to confuse regulations with standards. .


I'll just leave this here...
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9725&p_tab l e=STANDARDS

In this case, the standards are regulations.

The problem that I always had with the Republican talking point, even though I do agree that there are bad regulations, is that they never really pinned down which regulations they wanted to remove. This left it wide open for the Democrats to take it to hypothetical extremes (something both sides do).

And while I agree the onus is on everyone to stop buying cheap crap...

Stupid company owners who treat their employees like crap will not succeed to the level of a more enlightened company owner.

does not always ring true...because you will never get people to stop buying cheap crap.
 
2012-11-25 11:35:20 AM

Aulus: From the Wikipedia entry on the Triangle Shirtwaist fire:

The company's owners, Max Blanck and Isaac Harris, who survived the fire by fleeing to the building's roof when the fire began, were indicted on charges of first- and second-degree manslaughter in mid-April; the pair's trial began on December 4, 1911.[36] Max Steuer, counsel for the defendants, managed to destroy the credibility of one of the survivors, Kate Alterman, by asking her to repeat her testimony a number of times, which she did without altering key phrases. Steuer argued to the jury that Alterman and possibly other witnesses had memorized their statements, and might even have been told what to say by the prosecutors. The defense also stressed that the prosecution had failed to prove that the owners knew the exit doors were locked at the time in question. The jury acquitted the two men, but they lost a subsequent civil suit in 1913 in which plaintiffs won compensation in the amount of $75 per deceased victim. The insurance company paid Blanck and Harris about $60,000 more than the reported losses, or about $400 per casualty. In 1913, Blanck was once again arrested for locking the door in his factory during working hours. He was fined $20.[37]



A year or tow ago, there was a documentary on this in PBS or The History Channel. The granddaughter of one of the owners was interviewed. She said that while she was glad her grandfather didn't go to prison, if she had been a relative of one of those killed back then, she would have shot him to death.


http://video.pbs.org/video/1817898383
 
2012-11-25 11:36:55 AM

Mr. Right: Mr. Shabooboo: So let's all jump on the bandwagon of "Less regulation" and the new catch phrase, "We need to
roll back regulations".. A certain pachyderm party had that a lot in their commercials.
The "Job Creators" keep blaming those pesky regulations for cutting into job growth..Ya...

Liberals tend to confuse regulations with standards. The regulations currently in place in the U.S. cost billions in compliance and a great many of them have no effect on the well-being of workers, the environment, or anything else. They are simply time and money wasting regulations that are in place for petty little bureaucrats to maintain control and justify their existence.

The item that most liberals miss is that those tons of regulations actually permit companies to get away with things like this fire. If something goes wrong that wasn't anticipated in the voluminous regulations and so long as the company can prove that it was, indeed, following the regulations, it is indemnified from most legal action.

Disasters such as this fire occur in places like Bangladesh (and, quite frankly at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory) because human life is held too cheaply when there is an over-abundance of it. China has almost no regulations to protect workers because for any worker killed, there are 2 dozen lined up outside to take his place. In the 1920s, this country had virtually opened its borders to any and all immigrants and labor was so abundant that companies treated them with utter disrespect.

What intelligent factory owners realized, however, was that better treatment of workers led to higher productivity and, consequently, higher profits. Henry Ford doubled the prevailing daily wage (without a union in sight) and switched to an 8 hour day because he wanted to be able to hire and keep the best workers and because he wanted to run his factories 24 hours a day and 8 hour shifts were more sustainable for workers than 12. Additionally, he figured that if he paid his workers eno ...


Wow. That's a pretty huge pile of false assertions, and there are a lot of Wobblies and coal miners who would disagree with your thesis, I think.
 
2012-11-25 11:48:43 AM

RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.


Sigh.

I'm bored and it's a lazy Sunday, so I'd like to ask you a few questions. Not that expect rational answers, but....

As you said, they are OUR safety laws, not Bangladesh's. Are you suggesting that we be all imperialistic and impose OUR laws on another sovereign nation?

How many troops should we use to take over the country if they don't comply?

Or maybe we simply should not be exporting jobs to other countries? If we were to stop doing so, would you personally be willing to send money to support a certain number of out-of-work starving foreigners?

".....where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control."

Really? Costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control? Really? Ever actually, you know, RUN a business? I'll give you the child labor part, since kids with no experience are generally cheaper to hire than adults with more experience, but safety compliance and pollution control are generally one-time sunk costs, and fairly minimal on a per unit basis over the life of the facility.

But about that child labor.... Sometimes in some of those shiatholes it is the working kids who make the difference between a family starving to death and surviving. Please give us a cost/benefit formula: How many families starving is an acceptable tradeoff to raising employment standards by banning children from working?

Like I said, I really don't expect rational answers here (more likely name calling or simply ignoring me) but it will be amusing to see the response, if any.
 
2012-11-25 11:53:09 AM

Ow My Balls: In the big picture, 101 years really isn't that long ago. After seven or eight measly decades, the big business interests merely moved elsewhere to kill people for profit since they couldn't do it as easily over here anymore. It'll sadly take a lot longer for common people in third world places such as this to rise up and demand to live humane lives than it did here.

Over here, the Right has managed to demonize labor unions and common people in general over the last 25 years, even convincing a large proportion that our downfall from an industrial society is the workers' faults. Don't be surprised if, over the next century, we'll see some of the things we take for granted rolled back so that big business interests can fark us over a little more easily. We're already there with 40-hour weeks being mostly a thing of the past for non-retail people.


Do you mean working MORE than 40 hrs a week? So are you whining about the overtime pay? Or about the fact that you are salaried management (rather than an exploited downtrodden proletariat) and expected to get the job done regardless?
 
2012-11-25 11:54:47 AM

Next week's Tom Sawyer: Ow My Balls: I would love to see a catalog, by the way, of the exact garments made by this place. Out them, if they are destined for Wal-Mart!

But if they are destined for designer stores, or retail outlets that employ union workers, then shush your mouth. Right?


Zing! LOL!

It would be hilarious if they were making Union clothing.
 
2012-11-25 11:56:31 AM

Hobodeluxe: RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

once upon a time we had rules that didn't allow us to bring in goods from places that didn't have decent working wages and conditions. Americans had good jobs and there were far less imports.
Then our politicians sold us out to the multinationals.


...and some of the jobless poor in 3rd world shiatholes stopped starving in the streets.
 
2012-11-25 11:56:40 AM

bookman: RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

Sigh.

I'm bored and it's a lazy Sunday, so I'd like to ask you a few questions. Not that expect rational answers, but....

As you said, they are OUR safety laws, not Bangladesh's. Are you suggesting that we be all imperialistic and impose OUR laws on another sovereign nation?

How many troops should we use to take over the country if they don't comply?

Or maybe we simply should not be exporting jobs to other countries? If we were to stop doing so, would you personally be willing to send money to support a certain number of out-of-work starving foreigners?

".....where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control."

Really? Costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control? Really? Ever actually, you know, RUN a business? I'll give you the child labor part, since kids with no experience are generally cheaper to hire than adults with more experience, but safety compliance and pollution control are generally one-time sunk costs, and fairly minimal on a per unit basis over the life of the facility.

But about that child labor.... Sometim ...


The only thing we can really do (well, in this case we = Americans, though I'm in Holland) is either pass legislation saying that companies are responsible to source their materials ethically (which, given the complexity of modern supply chains, is almost impossible), or as with Nike or Apple to shame them into putting into place ethical sourcing policies. That, and have the willingness to pay maybe an extra percent (so, say twenty bucks on your next MacBook, or ten cents on a t-shirt).

I'm fairly sure that the lack of standards, safety equipment, and so on - especially the lack of environmental laws - do indeed have a big impact. You're right that a lot of them are one-time costs, but those big costs get capitalized and you have ongoing extra costs for waste disposal, extra labor, extra floor space, presumably safety training and drills, and what not.

You are right about the difference between rural subsistence farming and low-wage factory work, though - it does continue to be attractive to people, although there have been some cases where the promised deals never show up. The trick is to find the sweet spot where we're paying not too much for products that are produced ethically enough. The definition of a gray area, definitely, but I don't think there's a 100% satisfactory answer for everyone.
 
2012-11-25 11:57:58 AM

Mouser: Hobodeluxe: RoyBatty: Yep, that's exactly what I thought too subby.

Bangladesh has around 4,500 garment factories that make clothes for brands including Tesco, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, H&M, Marks & Spencer, Kohl's and Carrefour.

Witnesses said the workers, mostly women, ran for safety as the fire engulfed the plant, but were unable to come out through narrow exits.

"Many jumped out from the windows and were injured, or died on the spot," Milon, a resident, said

It's only been 101 years since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, but hey, in the interest of globalization let's toss out all of our safety laws our ancestors fought for and died for, and ship jobs overseas to where labor is cheap and costs are low because there are no safety laws, child labor laws, pollution control.

Damn Americans, we just can't compete.

101 years and we've learned nothing.

once upon a time we had rules that didn't allow us to bring in goods from places that didn't have decent working wages and conditions. Americans had good jobs and there were far less imports.
Then our politicians sold us out to the multinationals.

Yes, the protective tariffs of the 1920s and 30s did so much for the working man.


Ah! Someone that actually knows history! On Fark! Amazing!
 
2012-11-25 12:00:50 PM

DiscoDJ: We need two things...
tarrifs on imports (free trade is a non-sequetur), and self-deportation (if "people who are here illegally" can't get jobs, they will go back).
When my tax dollars no longer go to support a school system of 40% or more "people who are here illegally", then my tax dollars will go further. Like going to help African-Americans who got the short end, and are still getting it.


free trade is a non-sequetur

Please explain how this is the case.

Link" "Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises.[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion. All invalid arguments are special cases of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition. Many types of known non sequitur argument forms have been classified into many different types of logical fallacies."
 
2012-11-25 12:04:00 PM

DiscoDJ: a school system of 40% or more "people who are here illegally"


img62.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-25 12:06:15 PM

Kit Fister: edmo: RoyBatty: 101 years and we've learned nothing.

101 years and American industrialists haven't changed.

101 years and American Industrialists are still starting businesses expecting to make a profit...


If you can't make a profit without exposing your workers to needless risk to life or limb, then the sooner you file Chapter 7 the better.
 
2012-11-25 12:08:48 PM

Mr. Right: Mr. Shabooboo: So let's all jump on the bandwagon of "Less regulation" and the new catch phrase, "We need to
roll back regulations".. A certain pachyderm party had that a lot in their commercials.
The "Job Creators" keep blaming those pesky regulations for cutting into job growth..Ya...

Liberals tend to confuse regulations with standards. The regulations currently in place in the U.S. cost billions in compliance and a great many of them have no effect on the well-being of workers, the environment, or anything else. They are simply time and money wasting regulations that are in place for petty little bureaucrats to maintain control and justify their existence.

The item that most liberals miss is that those tons of regulations actually permit companies to get away with things like this fire. If something goes wrong that wasn't anticipated in the voluminous regulations and so long as the company can prove that it was, indeed, following the regulations, it is indemnified from most legal action.

Disasters such as this fire occur in places like Bangladesh (and, quite frankly at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory) because human life is held too cheaply when there is an over-abundance of it. China has almost no regulations to protect workers because for any worker killed, there are 2 dozen lined up outside to take his place. In the 1920s, this country had virtually opened its borders to any and all immigrants and labor was so abundant that companies treated them with utter disrespect.

What intelligent factory owners realized, however, was that better treatment of workers led to higher productivity and, consequently, higher profits. Henry Ford doubled the prevailing daily wage (without a union in sight) and switched to an 8 hour day because he wanted to be able to hire and keep the best workers and because he wanted to run his factories 24 hours a day and 8 hour shifts were more sustainable for workers than 12. Additionally, he figured that if he paid his workers eno ...


There is so much win in this post that I don't even know where to begin in commenting on it.

www.videoletras.net
 
2012-11-25 12:11:35 PM

bookman: DiscoDJ: We need two things...
tarrifs on imports (free trade is a non-sequetur), and self-deportation (if "people who are here illegally" can't get jobs, they will go back).
When my tax dollars no longer go to support a school system of 40% or more "people who are here illegally", then my tax dollars will go further. Like going to help African-Americans who got the short end, and are still getting it.

free trade is a non-sequetur

Please explain how this is the case.

Link" "Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises.[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion. All invalid arguments are special cases of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition. Many types of known non sequitur argument forms have been classified into many different types of logical fallacies."


I suspect he meant oxymoron.
 
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