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(Salon)   Grover Norquist: Abandon the pledge in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances   (salon.com) divider line 278
    More: Scary, Grover Norquist, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, Americans for Tax Reform, Boehner, Party leaders of the United States Senate  
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7153 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Nov 2012 at 2:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 06:51:50 PM  
ok, it reminded me of Jeff Goldbloom's little speech in Jurassic Park, "The economy (LIFE) finds a way")
and I believe that. A recovery was/is inevitable. But will it be sustainable enough to help? I worry more about the 20 year projections, a rebound bounce of the floor won't change those.


One thing is certain: it will be far more sustainable with a balanced budget and functional federal finances than without those things. And spending cuts and major tax hikes are the first step to doing those things, not coddling the rich and funding adventuristic wars on a credit card.

There's no question though: in addition to tax and finance reform, we also need to make serious changes to how corporations and their executives interact with our society. The current system of 'base your whole operation overseas while claiming the legal protections of a US system you do everything possible not to pay into' can't continue.
 
2012-11-24 06:54:13 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What a vicious little man. Never elected or even appointed to nay political office, yet he blackmails the entire United States to do his bidding or else.

And all because he's a selfish punk who doesn't want to pay his fair share.


^This, this and this.
 
2012-11-24 06:54:43 PM  
So much facepalm.
 
2012-11-24 07:00:28 PM  

The Troof hurts: Lionel Mandrake: The Troof hurts: Maybe improve the discourse by taking the high road?

by calling people farking hypocrites.

"high road" does not mean what you think it means

Ha. Guilty. That "pissing on folk's grave" statement gets to me.


Probably hyperbole. People toss that phrase around, but I don't think anyone would actually take the trouble to piss on the dude's grave. Sometimes people say stuff on the internet that they don't really mean.

/Gotta run, my wife wants me to join her in the bathtub.
//You know, Morgan Fairchild--yeah, that's the ticket!
 
2012-11-24 07:10:22 PM  

whistleridge: Remember 1998? Remember how you were just sure your impeaching of Clinton was going to win you all the things? Remember how bad it backfired? Voters can be dumb, but they're not that dumb. They know who is at fault here, and they know what the country needs.


What was that Democratic saying?

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time...?
 
2012-11-24 07:11:42 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: whistleridge: Zeb Hesselgresser: whistleridge
These next four years are going to be politically beautiful, and not nearly as economically harmful as the doomday brigade would have you believe.

I truly hope so, but I'd like to see, if not statistical evidence, at least somebody writing about outside of here.

I don't see or hear optimism from the people my Co does business with, it's doom and gloom everywhere, and no they are not all idiots. Even the broke people I know are bracing for more broke with a little govt. help, but no opportunity. We'll see, I'd love send you $10 from a flush account in 4 years after casting my next Presidential ballot for Rahm.


You sound...concerned.
 
2012-11-24 07:13:39 PM  

whistleridge:

There's no question though: in addition to tax and finance reform, we also need to make serious changes to how corporations and their executives interact with our society. The current system of 'base your whole operation overseas while claiming the legal protections of a US system you do everything possible not to pay into' can't continue.


i'm not sure if that's gonna ever get fixed but...my thoughts on that matter would be to start stripping intellectual property protection from the guys who move themselves outta the country while still claiming to be a US company. pay to play motherf*ckers.
 
2012-11-24 07:16:33 PM  
Someone needs to walk him over to the nerds, Megyn Kelly-style and show Mr. Norquist where he went all Karl Rove.
 
2012-11-24 07:21:06 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Someone needs to walk him over to the nerds, Megyn Kelly-style and show Mr. Norquist where he went all Karl Rove.


Yeah, but Grover will just bring along Dean Chambers so he can eat them and their socialistic math to death.
 
2012-11-24 07:23:41 PM  

Weaver95: whistleridge:

There's no question though: in addition to tax and finance reform, we also need to make serious changes to how corporations and their executives interact with our society. The current system of 'base your whole operation overseas while claiming the legal protections of a US system you do everything possible not to pay into' can't continue.

i'm not sure if that's gonna ever get fixed but...my thoughts on that matter would be to start stripping intellectual property protection from the guys who move themselves outta the country while still claiming to be a US company. pay to play motherf*ckers.


I don't know. I think there's plenty to be done.

For example, if more than 50% of your board is American but less than 50% of your production is domestic, you pay a 75% import duty.

Or maybe you offer a significant tax savings to companies that brings jobs here, combined with a significant per capita tax penalty for each job outsourced.

I realize that's simplistic. I realize there are treaties that must be accommodated. But my point remains: there's definitely carrot and stick options open. We just need our government to be at least as creative in creating our tax structure as companies have been in avoiding it.
 
2012-11-24 07:24:27 PM  
People, please stop replying to the really really really obvious troll alt, because one giant crying baby picture showing up in this thread is enough.
 
2012-11-24 07:27:49 PM  
George H.W. Bush summed it up best: "Who the fark is Grover Norquist and wht the fark does anyone care what he says?"

/I may be paraphrasing a bit
 
2012-11-24 07:33:32 PM  
Worthington was funny for a bit. Not any more. *plonk*.

More than thirty posts have disappeared from this thread. Wonder who else is shiatting all over.
 
2012-11-24 07:38:51 PM  
(This comment has been removed)
 
2012-11-24 07:41:47 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That word you're using, "facts"? I don't think it means what you think it does.


Therein lies the problem. Facts are things that are true, regardless of whether or not you believe them. I know, that doesn't jibe with the current Conservative definition which defines 'fact' as 'a political judgement that defines reality'.
 
2012-11-24 07:46:14 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: cameroncrazy1984: Silly Jesus is a prime example of why "Change Images to Links" is my default setting

He's a prime example of why I use the ignore feature.


Trolling/harassing other Fark members: Unfortunately, disagreements can and will happen - but there is no need for them to become personal. Don't harass other users with your posts, parody links/threads, or create accounts to harass them with.
Fark accounts come with a handy Ignore Feature. Use it to filter out those posters whose comments you'd prefer not to read. Keep in mind that discussing who's on your ignore list is the opposite of ignoring. It crosses the line into trolling of other Fark members and may result in a suspension of posting privileges.
 
2012-11-24 07:46:49 PM  

Thats No Moose: Worthington was funny for a bit. Not any more. *plonk*.

More than thirty posts have disappeared from this thread. Wonder who else is shiatting all over.


This is where someone usually comes in and says that ignoring them means you're weak, or have your head in the sand, or want to be in "the fark echo chamber". Don't believe it for a second. Why entertain those that are there just to annoy and attract attention? I'll never understand.

You show me a list of "conservatives" on FARK that present cogent, rational points--and argue them logically-- and I'll find myself looking at a very short list.
 
2012-11-24 07:47:22 PM  

fusillade762: Benevolent Misanthrope: GAT_00: The heart of conservative philosophy: obstruction and refusal to ever consider anything other than your own ideas.

Sounds alot like religion, no?

It's appropriate since the GOP is behaving more like an apocalypse cult than a political party.


My point precisely. Their adherents have a highly significant overlap with apocalyptic Christians. It's rather frightening, to me at least.
 
2012-11-24 07:59:05 PM  

born_yesterday: This is where someone usually comes in and says that ignoring them means you're weak, or have your head in the sand, or want to be in "the fark echo chamber". Don't believe it for a second. Why entertain those that are there just to annoy and attract attention? I'll never understand.

You show me a list of "conservatives" on FARK that present cogent, rational points--and argue them logically-- and I'll find myself looking at a very short list.


You got to remember, there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans" these days.
 
2012-11-24 08:01:07 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: You
got to remember, there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans" these days.


Not according to the conservatives.
 
2012-11-24 08:05:00 PM  

Weaver95: namatad: Weaver95: i'm expecting fear/anger and conspiracy to be the Weenerss followed by the elite inner circle sacrificing someone as a scapegoat.

This would be a "rational" decision. They will never do this. It would require admitting that a mistake was made. Rove/Newt/Limbo/Grover/Palin/Bachmann? Not a chance in hell. These are the spiritual leaders, they can't kill their prophets. Rmoney/Bush? Sure, they have no value to the party anymore, but sacrificing them accomplishes nothing.

In order to fix any of the problems, they would need to get rid of the people who "let" them be so blind to the defeat in the first place. Broken primary system, broken polling system. Without fixing those problems, they will continue to be shocked and surprised!!

TBH, all they need to do is follow 538 and they dont even need to do their own polling.

yeah, but the GOP has to know something went wrong. it's the sort of thing they can't ignore no matter how much they try. they HAVE to accept Romney lost...which means someone has to be blamed for that loss.


Karl Rove will be sacrificed in horrible and well-deserved disgrace. That is, unless he has too much dirt on too many people to make that safe.
 
2012-11-24 08:07:47 PM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Not according to the conservatives.


no, that would be according to the Republicans. You've got places like The American Conservative where it's very clear at least some of the writers aren't exactly card carrying members of the GOP though they most certainly are conservatives.
 
2012-11-24 08:11:01 PM  
Why are you all responding to this blatant and clumsy troll?
 
2012-11-24 08:20:40 PM  

cryinoutloud: Maybe people who are in charge of running the entire country shouldn't go running around saying that they will NEVER do this, or that such and such will NEVER happen on their watch, like they're four years old.


This is a Bayesian problem. If your priors are 0% or 100%, no amount of objected data will change that.
 
2012-11-24 08:31:29 PM  
What actually happens when you cross the norquist?
 
2012-11-24 08:33:23 PM  

Weaver95: The Troof hurts:
How pleasant you liberals are when folks don't agree with you. farking hypocrites.

most people outside of the GOP don't like Grover Norquist very much. they see him as unrealistic at best or downright evil at worst. what's more, he really does seem to believe in his idiotic crusade. never mind how much damage it would do or the chaos it would cause...he's got his issue and he's not going to stop until everyone does what he wants.


And no matter what people do and no matter how much he gets it's never enough because nothing, NOTHING, will give him back his ice cream.

I forget, was it you who pointed out so many GOP leaders have proud tales of when they were children and their fathers taught them something about the evils of liberalism by being mean to them?
 
2012-11-24 08:35:03 PM  

jaytkay: Silly Jesus: You seem very concerned.

It's so cute when conservatives imitate adults. I love that!


Cum again?
 
2012-11-24 08:39:04 PM  
i75.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-24 08:47:52 PM  
Looks like you were lied to AGAIN by Obama, libs, you idiots:

Link
 
2012-11-24 08:48:02 PM  
You know, I actually want to see with my own eyes who these people are that make up Grover's little "Americans for Tax Reform". You now, the throngs of rabid hordes that Grover threatens to unleash upon any republican who dares to have "impure thoughts".

My guess is that the "membership list" consists of at least several thousand made-up names. The few names who may actually exist are likely to be a handful of billionaires who have a grudge against the IRS. Or maybe they just hate the idea of Democracy, period. It wouldn't be the first time the rich tried to wage a coup to take down our government. Google up "The Business Plot of 1933".

It's been said that Mister Norquist has ties to several Islamic terrorist groups and wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's true. If you want to tear America down you don't steer an airliner into a skyscraper. You hire a lobbyist like Norquist to go inside the Hallowed Halls and do some REAL damage.
 
2012-11-24 08:56:16 PM  

TheBigJerk: was it you who pointed out so many GOP leaders


If you want an example of how out of it the GOP is, Romney said it takes two parents to succeed in America while on the some stage as Obama, you know, the guy raised by a single mother who only became President.
 
2012-11-24 08:58:35 PM  
This isn't my first rodeo," Norquist told the Journal.

"Nothing has changed on the chess board since Barack Obama agreed to extend all the Bush tax cuts two years ago. Exactly the same players.


It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.
 
2012-11-24 09:00:24 PM  

tony41454: tony41454: Looks like you were lied to AGAIN by Obama, libs

It is the mark of the modern "conservative" angry, misinformed idiot that they universally refer to anyone who disagrees with them as some form of the word "Liberal", without regard to the actual political position of the person to whom they refer.

It is safe to note this predeliction as a mark of their character.

 
2012-11-24 09:00:34 PM  

Super Chronic: This isn't my first rodeo," Norquist told the Journal.

"Nothing has changed on the chess board since Barack Obama agreed to extend all the Bush tax cuts two years ago. Exactly the same players.

It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.


If we can hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards, checkmate!
 
2012-11-24 09:03:34 PM  

Super Chronic: It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.


and Andy Reid used up all the time outs last quarter....
 
2012-11-24 09:04:45 PM  

tony41454: Looks like you were lied to AGAIN by Obama, libs, you idiots:

Link


"Moreover, even if Obama gets his way on all of his tax hikes on the wealthy, it still won't make a dent in the $16.3 trillion national debt."

So clearly the right thing to do is provide more tax cuts for the wealthy...
 
2012-11-24 09:09:19 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Super Chronic: It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.

and Andy Reid used up all the time outs last quarter....


And he forgot to warn Chris Webber...
 
2012-11-24 09:15:59 PM  

whistleridge: jaytkay: Silly Jesus: You seem very concerned.

It's so cute when conservatives imitate adults. I love that!

It's like a little girl trying to walk in Mommy's heels: every move dumps her on her ass and makes her cry, but darned if the spunky little thing doesn't keep on trying. So cute!


www.allgraphics123.com
 
2012-11-24 09:18:59 PM  

Super Chronic: This isn't my first rodeo," Norquist told the Journal.

"Nothing has changed on the chess board since Barack Obama agreed to extend all the Bush tax cuts two years ago. Exactly the same players.

It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.


I'll take "Mixed Sports Metaphors" for $200, please Alex.
 
2012-11-24 09:24:35 PM  

TV's Vinnie: You know, I actually want to see with my own eyes who these people are that make up Grover's little "Americans for Tax Reform". You now, the throngs of rabid hordes that Grover threatens to unleash upon any republican who dares to have "impure thoughts".

My guess is that the "membership list" consists of at least several thousand made-up names. The few names who may actually exist are likely to be a handful of billionaires who have a grudge against the IRS. Or maybe they just hate the idea of Democracy, period. It wouldn't be the first time the rich tried to wage a coup to take down our government. Google up "The Business Plot of 1933".

It's been said that Mister Norquist has ties to several Islamic terrorist groups and wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's true. If you want to tear America down you don't steer an airliner into a skyscraper. You hire a lobbyist like Norquist to go inside the Hallowed Halls and do some REAL damage.


Nah, I'm sure there's lots of real names on that list. Conservative sites for years would have links to his page, and after all, all it takes is putting in an email address and a click and you're on his list as one of the Teeming Millions (h/t to Cecil Adams).

But it infuriates me when I'd see commercials like "In our household, just like yours, we can't just 'Raise taxes', we have to cut spending. Oppose any tax increases" blah blah blah. One, you most certainly can increase revenue in a household - find additional work, sell stuff you don't need, and whatnot. If your financial situation is minor, maybe you cut some of your expenses, or get a second part-time job, one or the other. If it is dire, the solution isn't to cut expenses to the point that you stop eating food and don't pay the water bill so that you don't have to get a second job. If it gets to the point that you have to cut so much that you can't eat, at that point the second part-time job might just be the answer.

Almost every major economist is pretty clear that we will get out of this via getting a handle on spending AND by raising additional revenue, not just one or the other. Norquist's "No Taxes Ever Ever Ever" pledge is stupid for this reason. It robs (not really, but he makes them think so) those that sign it of flexibility in ever solving problems, just like the Pro-Life Forever No Exceptions pledges lead to people awkwardly answering questions about rape.

It's good to see him get a bit of comeuppance. Will it last? Probably not, but the stupid thing is the only thing he gains by "winning" here is tax increases on EVERYBODY, rather than tax increases on a few.
 
2012-11-24 09:33:38 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!

Was wondering when you would show..I guess it takes time to fill up the seltzer bottle and have fresh cream pies plus im sure the clown outfit is a biatch to put on. Thats pretty much what I see when you post plus riding a unicycle and holding a small umbrella.


Relax; the Fark Liberal Special Ops team has his number. Lie back and enjoy it.

Or not. 

/Did he say Norquist is an anal-retentive dirt-eating troglodyte? No he didn't. QED.
 
2012-11-24 09:36:31 PM  

Flaming Yawn: ItchyMcDoogle: Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!

Was wondering when you would show..I guess it takes time to fill up the seltzer bottle and have fresh cream pies plus im sure the clown outfit is a biatch to put on. Thats pretty much what I see when you post plus riding a unicycle and holding a small umbrella.

Relax; the Fark Liberal Special Ops team has his number. Lie back and enjoy it.

Or not. 

/Did he say Norquist is an anal-retentive dirt-eating troglodyte? No he didn't. QED.


Huh?
 
2012-11-24 09:39:05 PM  

Superjew: What actually happens when you cross the norquist?


Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
 
2012-11-24 09:39:21 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Super Chronic: This isn't my first rodeo," Norquist told the Journal.

"Nothing has changed on the chess board since Barack Obama agreed to extend all the Bush tax cuts two years ago. Exactly the same players.

It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.

I'll take "Mixed Sports Metaphors" for $200, please Alex.


If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
 
2012-11-24 09:42:57 PM  
America is full of these idiotic figures your raise up, past all logic, to positions of wisdom.

Only the US looks at grover norquist and ayn rand as visionaries. And that's only because you were told they were.
 
2012-11-24 09:44:39 PM  

GAT_00: Variants of the same thing. Conservatives are reactionary. It's inherent in the philosophy of never embracing the new and always pretending things used to be better. That's conservatism.


No. Conservatives resist change. Reactionaries attempt to revert change.

It's a pretty substantial difference. A conservative position, essentially, is fine with how things are in the present or at least wants to minimize long-term policy change in fixing short-term problems, where a reactionary wishes to make things like the past.

The US's current actual conservative movement is a faction of the Democratic party.
 
2012-11-24 09:45:31 PM  

Silly Jesus: Flaming Yawn: ItchyMcDoogle: Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!

Was wondering when you would show..I guess it takes time to fill up the seltzer bottle and have fresh cream pies plus im sure the clown outfit is a biatch to put on. Thats pretty much what I see when you post plus riding a unicycle and holding a small umbrella.

Relax; the Fark Liberal Special Ops team has his number. Lie back and enjoy it.

Or not. 

/Did he say Norquist is an anal-retentive dirt-eating troglodyte? No he didn't. QED.

Huh?


Sorry, typo on my part: meant to write: "did he (Silly Jesus) NOT say Norquist..."

Thanks for catching it.
 
2012-11-24 09:46:05 PM  

Flaming Yawn: I'd call your plan a reductio ad absurdam but


(touches nose, smiles and winks)
 
2012-11-24 09:46:28 PM  

fusillade762: cameroncrazy1984: Super Chronic: This isn't my first rodeo," Norquist told the Journal.

"Nothing has changed on the chess board since Barack Obama agreed to extend all the Bush tax cuts two years ago. Exactly the same players.

It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full court press.

I'll take "Mixed Sports Metaphors" for $200, please Alex.

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.


That's SO 36 minutes ago . . .
 
2012-11-24 09:50:30 PM  
theknuckler_33:
--------------
jjorsett: DeaH: The president and the senate democrats are offering to make the Bush tax cuts permanent for everyone up to $250,000 of income. If the republicans don't act, then they are clearly saying that the tax cuts that benefit only the wealthy are more important that tax relief for the majority. This is a clear choice with a clear message.

And the Democrats holding out for those taxes are clearly saying that they're willing to burn down the economy in order to get their pound of flesh from a tiny group that they've demonized, even when the revenue derived would be so insignificant in the budget that it would be meaningless in reducing the deficit. That's the clear message, and if the Republicans had any sense they'd be putting it out there with everything they had.

--------------
Got any figures for how 'insignificant' that increased revenue would be? Because it would be interesting to compare the increased revenue from those tax increases to the savings from, say cutting funding for NPR and PBS. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the increased revenue will be FAR more than the savings from those things.


According to the CBO, letting the bush-era tax cuts expire on income over 250k will get us almost $1 Trillion over 10 years ($100 Billion per year on average): Link to ThinkProgress article
 
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