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(Salon)   Grover Norquist: Abandon the pledge in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances   (salon.com) divider line 277
    More: Scary, Grover Norquist, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, Americans for Tax Reform, Boehner, Party leaders of the United States Senate  
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7152 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Nov 2012 at 2:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 03:17:52 PM  

jjorsett: whistleridge: "Even more than getting more revenues, (Democrats) want Republican fingerprints on tax increases so they can smash Republicans in the next series of elections."

No you blithering farkwad, they want to fix our broken finances. But your side is so caught up in the looting and pillaging that they just can't understand that. But the voters do. This past election showed that. And the coming election will show it even more.

No, YOU blithering farkwad, that's exactly what they want. Bush 1's "Read my lips, no new taxes" was thrown back in his face the instant he caved and agreed to raise taxes. The dems beat him with it at every opportunity in his reelection campaign. Any Republican thinking he can cut a deal with these people and not have it used against him is delusional and should be challenged in the primary because he's too damned naive to be a Senator.


I agree, it was horrible that the Democrats forced the Republicans to sign a thoroughly stupid pledge that can't possibly be kept just to make the Republicans look bad when it was inevitably broken. Why would the Democrats do such a thing?
 
2012-11-24 03:19:11 PM  
What a vicious little man. Never elected or even appointed to nay political office, yet he blackmails the entire United States to do his bidding or else.

And all because he's a selfish punk who doesn't want to pay his fair share.
 
2012-11-24 03:22:11 PM  

Summoner101: The problem with this is that the GOP has a built in excuse for denying the pledge. All the candidate has to say is that due to voters ultimately choosing to elect people that would be open to raising taxes, they're changing their position to ultimately better represent the electorate. Boom, done.


Until the Norquist mafia stops being such a stupidly effective threat at usurping the incumbent during the primaries if they should DARE TO QUESTION his middle school idea... that ain't gonna happen.

Christ.

Daily Show video on the pledge.
 
2012-11-24 03:23:00 PM  
STAY THE COURSE, REPUBLICANS.
 
2012-11-24 03:27:24 PM  

dudemanbro: I will piss on Grover's grave.


I want to dig open Grover's grave, AND piss into his mouth.

Oh, such a glorious day that will be.
 
2012-11-24 03:28:40 PM  
What did grover do to make them all sign? Did he take their souls and promise them they would get re-elected? I just want to know what the signers of this tax pledge got for going lock-step and toeing the line on not raising taxes on the rich
 
2012-11-24 03:29:21 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Always felt like that tickle down was so insulting, the lessers getting pittance from their betters. Ill never understand how the GOP got so much mileage out of it


I think it was the calculated move of courting the social "conservatives". They locked in a highly motivated, previously underestimated voting block. Combine that with how incredibly successful that economic policy was for the wealthiest Americans, and you had an incredible source of reliable funding, and two solid, yet demographically diverse, voting demographics (fiscal and social conservatives) to spread the message.
 
2012-11-24 03:30:55 PM  

jjorsett: No, YOU blithering farkwad, that's exactly what they want. Bush 1's "Read my lips, no new taxes" was thrown back in his face the instant he caved and agreed to raise taxes. The dems beat him with it at every opportunity in his reelection campaign. Any Republican thinking he can cut a deal with these people and not have it used against him is delusional and should be challenged in the primary because he's too damned naive to be a Senator.


Maybe people who are in charge of running the entire country shouldn't go running around saying that they will NEVER do this, or that such and such will NEVER happen on their watch, like they're four years old.

The entire country is a complicated place, and if our elected officials can't be flexible and adapt to changing times, who the fark is supposed to do it? It's a little more important than whether or not a talking point can be used against you. I mean--to people other than people like you.
 
2012-11-24 03:31:01 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Daily Show video on the pledge.


"make it easier to choose who to vote for"
rofl
one will not raise your taxes !!! LOL
 
2012-11-24 03:32:25 PM  

TV's Vinnie: dudemanbro: I will piss on Grover's grave.

I want to dig open Grover's grave, AND piss into his mouth.

Oh, such a glorious day that will be.


You...may want to see a psychologist about that. I try not to judge on these things, and I admit I'm not a phsychology expert, but I'm pretty sure 'I want another man to die so I can exhume him and urinate into his corpse's mouth' ain't normal :p
 
2012-11-24 03:32:35 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Summoner101: The problem with this is that the GOP has a built in excuse for denying the pledge. All the candidate has to say is that due to voters ultimately choosing to elect people that would be open to raising taxes, they're changing their position to ultimately better represent the electorate. Boom, done.

Until the Norquist mafia stops being such a stupidly effective threat at usurping the incumbent during the primaries if they should DARE TO QUESTION his middle school idea... that ain't gonna happen.

Christ.

Daily Show video on the pledge.


Get primaried by a Tea Partier two years after compromising with Democrats when the Tea Partier will just lose or stay the course and lose to the Democrats yourself because you didn't compromise? I realize the odds are probably better without the primary, but it'd flip if the GOP did it en masses rather than one or two members at a time.

Then again, at this point one or two sane members is all they got
 
2012-11-24 03:33:45 PM  

jjorsett: Bush 1's "Read my lips, no new taxes" was thrown back in his face the instant he caved and agreed to raise taxes. The dems beat him with it at every opportunity in his reelection campaign. Any Republican thinking he can cut a deal with these people and not have it used against him is delusional and should be challenged in the primary because he's too damned naive to be a Senator.


Or a smart candidate could do what Reagan did: not make any stupid pledges that lock you in to a situation where you cannot compromise.
 
2012-11-24 03:38:20 PM  

Churchy LaFemme: STAY THE COURSE, REPUBLICANS.


"Give me Victory or Give me the Death of the Republic!" - Grover Norquist and the Tea Party, apparently
 
2012-11-24 03:40:12 PM  

born_yesterday: DeaH: The president and the senate democrats are offering to make the Bush tax cuts permanent for everyone up to $250,000 of income. If the republicans don't act, then they are clearly saying that the tax cuts that benefit only the wealthy are more important that tax relief for the majority. This is a clear choice with a clear message.

Unfortunately, if history is any indication, the Democratic Congressional leadership will completely and utterly fail to capitalize on this as a talking point.


Well, the Senate did get it together enough to put a bill together that keeps the tax cuts in place on the first $250K, and Ried is more of a pushover than Pelosi.
 
2012-11-24 03:43:02 PM  
I want Norquist to die so I can dig up his corpse and allow vultures and packs of wild dogs pick it to pieces.
 
2012-11-24 03:43:21 PM  
Wow. My screen has more red in it than my christmas lights. The fark conservatives have arrived!
 
2012-11-24 03:44:30 PM  

The Bush Tax Cuts for the rich were designed -- hell NAMED -- to boost employment and the economy.

THEY DID NOT F*CKING WORK!


We have a recent bipartisan report, that the GOP has SQUASHED, that found no relation between cutting taxes for the wealthy and boosting the economy.

IT DOES NOT F*CKING WORK, and if you continue to support this shiat, you are a F*CKING IDIOT.

If you are serious about reducing our debt, ABANDON THE GOP TODAY. No more excuses. No more brainwashing. If you are too ignorant to see this, you should cease being politically active for the good of the country.
 
2012-11-24 03:44:51 PM  

themindiswatching: The Surgeon General needs to issue a public warning against echo chambers.


Don't do that, I love Fark!
 
2012-11-24 03:45:35 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Summoner101: The problem with this is that the GOP has a built in excuse for denying the pledge. All the candidate has to say is that due to voters ultimately choosing to elect people that would be open to raising taxes, they're changing their position to ultimately better represent the electorate. Boom, done.

Until the Norquist mafia stops being such a stupidly effective threat at usurping the incumbent during the primaries if they should DARE TO QUESTION his middle school idea... that ain't gonna happen.

Christ.

Daily Show video on the pledge.


The smartest idea in that whole program was that one kids plan to extend Metro North to Vermont.
 
2012-11-24 03:45:42 PM  
i309.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-24 03:46:00 PM  

Hollie Maea: I hope I see the day when this asshole swings from a crane on the national mall. He is essentially wrecking my country during the prime of my life.


Wait, what?

images.nationalgeographic.com
 
2012-11-24 03:46:49 PM  

jjorsett: No, YOU blithering farkwad, that's exactly what they want. Bush 1's "Read my lips, no new taxes" was thrown back in his face the instant he caved and agreed to raise taxes. The dems beat him with it at every opportunity in his reelection campaign.


Funny, I recall the main issues being the Iraq war, the recession, evangelicals losing interest and a massive charisma gap.
 
2012-11-24 03:47:31 PM  

namatad: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Daily Show video on the pledge.

"make it easier to choose who to vote for"
rofl
one will not raise your taxes !!! LOL


Even REAGAN would have been in violation of this pledge - repeatedly.

"Your team is winning? It's like you came up with this whole idea when you were 12"

"It was something I came up when I was 12, because we had this teacher..."

...



"Yes, the entire federal government is paralyzed because of a document written by a 12 year old in 1968"
 
2012-11-24 03:49:45 PM  

Silly Jesus: themindiswatching: The Surgeon General needs to issue a public warning against echo chambers.

Don't do that, I love Fark!


We may have a lot of aggrandizing right-wing attention whores like you, but we're not quite a right-wing echo chamber.
 
2012-11-24 03:49:51 PM  
I beg all of you to prevent this from become another SJ thread.
 
2012-11-24 03:50:34 PM  
...becoming...
 
2012-11-24 03:51:11 PM  
Getting rid of Norquist is a great start, but they're only going to have the huge electoral successes they're expecting once they get tough on gays.
 
2012-11-24 03:51:19 PM  

whistleridge: "Even more than getting more revenues, (Democrats) want Republican fingerprints on tax increases so they can smash Republicans in the next series of elections."

No you blithering farkwad, they want to fix our broken finances. But your side is so caught up in the looting and pillaging that they just can't understand that. But the voters do. This past election showed that. And the coming election will show it even more.

You don't get it, do you? Here's what's going to happen:

1. You and your ilk are going to up the derp to 11.
2. Obama is going to say 'fine by me. No deal then' and go play golf.
3. Jan 1 will happen. And he will get the revenue increases he wanted anyway.
4. And YOU will get killed in the next election, not the Democrats.

Remember 1998? Remember how you were just sure your impeaching of Clinton was going to win you all the things? Remember how bad it backfired? Voters can be dumb, but they're not that dumb. They know who is at fault here, and they know what the country needs.

These next two years are going to be derpy, but beautiful. I love watching hated idiots commit suicide publicly. It brings a warm glow to my heart.


The only other thing the Dems do is just introduce a real simple bill that extends just the middle class. Then they get a vote on it or force the Reps to filibuster it. In 2014 every single campaign ad references the Reps being obstructionist and raising taxes on the middle class. Then an ass kicking occurs in the midterm election.

The best thing for the Reps would be to support the middle class tax cuts and try to take at least 50% of the credit by calling them bipartisan tax cuts. Instead the Reps are being morons and dying on the beachhead for the rich.

/it isn't like old, rich, white folk are going to go out and vote Dem en masse right now, so the Reps might as well give Obama ~1.2 trillion or so in additional tax revenue and let it ride
 
2012-11-24 03:54:45 PM  
When I was twelve, I wanted to make the all-star team and was hiding my GI Joe obsession from my classmates.

Then I grew up.
 
2012-11-24 03:56:56 PM  
TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!
 
2012-11-24 03:57:42 PM  

Weaver95:
Republicans are authoritarian. in authoritarian belief systems, if/when something goes wrong someone HAS to be at fault. .


I agree, though I'd like to clarify so that we don't get people saying "Well, I'm a republican but I'm not an authoritarian so everything you say is wrong". Authoritarians are almost always conservative, because it protects those that currently hold power. So authoritarians will tend to prefer the republican party.

But I don't think that blame is inherently authoritarian (though it will certainly correlate well). I think it is inherently conservative. For example, conspiracy nuts are typically anti-authoritarian yet see agency in everything (thus seeing conspiracy rather than natural convergence). Seeing agency in natural processes is one of the oldest ways of interpreting the world. Hurricane hits your village? Some rational agent must have caused it, and thus it must have been caused for some reason (sin, etc.). Drought destroys crops? Some rational agent must have caused it, etc. Person gets sick? Same thing.

It is from the most primitive inferences that we observe ourselves as rational agents and, by analogy, extend agency to everything else. This is an extremely hard habit to break.. even I will occasionally take out my frustration on the inanimate target of that frustration. It's ancient enough that it's partly hardwired in. I grew up in a protestant community where every minor inconvenience was part of Satan's evil plan.. where coincidences are not merely correlations that we notice, but divine providence.. and where enthusiasm is actually divine possession, so I'm somewhat familiar with the worldview. We barely understand ourselves, and thus many interpret themselves as being composed of numerous different agents. The further you go back in history, the more often these misconceptions appear (e.g. if you were an ancient greek, you would attribute new ideas to the muses.. you would attribute lust to eros, confusion to eris, fear to phobos, etc.). Though, now that I'm writing that example, I realize that fundamentalist Christians still do the exact same thing (just with fewer deities). And these weren't just poetic metaphors for emotions.. these personifications had actual worshipers that built actual temples. I say this because there's always someone who tries to claim that the Greeks didn't actually believe their religion (to explain why theirs is different).

Even the non-religious overwhelmingly tend to see agency, at least in human beings. Again, this is an easy thing to do. Unfortunately, it leads to situations where we, for example, focus on punishment for it's own sake (you know, because the person just deserves it), rather than punishment to prevent such things from happening again. I may seem a little extreme here in rejecting any kind of agency, but it seems clear that any explanation that denies the existence of some underlying mechanism cannot actually be an explanation. Humans are massively complex, but are not fundamentally different from, say, the hurricane that destroyed your village. Bad reasoning is used in both cases, though the mistakes are far more tenacious when we do not have as clear a picture of the mechanical workings.

what's really weird is that authoritarian Republicans believe this will somehow enhance 'freedom'.

Everyone believes in freedom for themselves. Thus, when they cry for freedom, they do it in earnest *. It's why the republicans were freaking out over denying the freedom of an employer to decide how their employees' compensation, in the form of health insurance, is spent.

* but with a whole bunch of asterisks and fine print that they don't ever mention until you ask further.
 
2012-11-24 03:59:26 PM  
The other possibility for the Reps I see would be to give in on the taxes thing, let the upper class taxes go up as much as Obama wants but in exchange demand some concessions with regard to military scale backs. So various Rep Congressmen can go home and run a campaign based on "I kept this base open and kept X jobs intact because of it".
 
2012-11-24 04:04:50 PM  
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-11-24 04:08:45 PM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Churchy LaFemme: STAY THE COURSE, REPUBLICANS.

"Give me Victory or Give me the Death of the Republic!" - Grover Norquist and the Tea Party, apparently


All Grover does is present republicans with a choice he knows they're too stupid and lazy to make. Run a campaign based on substance or bend to him and keep running on the thinnest hint of integrity and image alone. Everything else that makes that bet effective and moves the country to harming its citizens is the work of republicans according to their own designs. Yes, he's a vile, little turd who's greatest service to humanity could be being beaten to death with a hammer in a dark alley, but let's not credit him with more than deserves.
 
2012-11-24 04:08:57 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: Getting rid of Norquist is a great start, but they're only going to have the huge electoral successes they're expecting once they get tough on gays.


Because, as Nov 6 demonstrated, nobody will ever vote for an amendment legalizing gay marriage.

/*offer not valid in any state a gay marriage amendment was actually offered this year
 
2012-11-24 04:09:19 PM  

Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!


If you can't think of anything clever to say, it's probably best not to say anything at all.
 
2012-11-24 04:13:13 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com

25.media.tumblr.com 

24.media.tumblr.com

24.media.tumblr.com

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-11-24 04:13:51 PM  

Biological Ali: Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!

If you can't think of anything clever to say, it's probably best not to say anything at all.


Yes, mom.
 
2012-11-24 04:15:05 PM  

Mangoose: We should have a citizenship tier. So you can say I only want to pay 2% of taxes but then you'd only get some of the privileges of being an american. Or you could pay 40% of your taxes and get the full package. Healthcare, legal representation, free speech and a mint on your pillow delivered by supermodel. Also having a mint put on your pillow by a supermodel should be an inalienable right of the free peoples of the world.

Also the percentage paid for full citizenship should vary by bracket.


Maybe allow people to opt-out of paying taxes, but by doing so they give up the use of anything provided by the federal government - roads, patent enforcement, access to the courts to redress property violations and protection of their safety by the police and courts.

Then the names and addresses of all those who opted out should be widely published. A week of looting and head spiking later and I think all these "job creators" might start to see they get a lot of value for their taxes.
 
2012-11-24 04:15:43 PM  

Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!


Was wondering when you would show..I guess it takes time to fill up the seltzer bottle and have fresh cream pies plus im sure the clown outfit is a biatch to put on. Thats pretty much what I see when you post plus riding a unicycle and holding a small umbrella.
 
2012-11-24 04:16:11 PM  

Tickle Mittens: Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Churchy LaFemme: STAY THE COURSE, REPUBLICANS.

"Give me Victory or Give me the Death of the Republic!" - Grover Norquist and the Tea Party, apparently

All Grover does is present republicans with a choice he knows they're too stupid and lazy to make. Run a campaign based on substance or bend to him and keep running on the thinnest hint of integrity and image alone. Everything else that makes that bet effective and moves the country to harming its citizens is the work of republicans according to their own designs. Yes, he's a vile, little turd who's greatest service to humanity could be being beaten to death with a hammer in a dark alley, but let's not credit him with more than deserves.


To quote another farker in some thread or another, "I think [Norquist] would be a very dangerous person to be near if he wasn't getting his way." They got onboard because while it's terrible policy, an absolute is easy to sell in soundbites. They're still onboard because once you've followed the crazy, you're all in no matter what you start to draw later.
 
2012-11-24 04:20:38 PM  

MisterRonbo: Or a smart candidate could do what Reagan did: not make any stupid pledges that lock you in to a situation where you cannot compromise.


If they were smart, they wouldn't be Republicans in the first place.
 
2012-11-24 04:21:26 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Silly Jesus: TheBigJerk: Derpity doo da, Derpity day, my oh my what a wonderful librul echo chamber day!

Was wondering when you would show..I guess it takes time to fill up the seltzer bottle and have fresh cream pies plus im sure the clown outfit is a biatch to put on. Thats pretty much what I see when you post plus riding a unicycle and holding a small umbrella.


Drew makes me wear all of that. Don't blame me.
 
2012-11-24 04:22:00 PM  
Silly Jesus is a prime example of why "Change Images to Links" is my default setting
 
2012-11-24 04:25:16 PM  
whistleridge
These next two years are going to be derpy, but beautiful.

More lost jobs, houses, pensions, savings, hopes, dreams and aspirations;
yeah, just beautiful, if you are a sadist of the first order.
 
2012-11-24 04:27:39 PM  
ninagreipel.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-24 04:27:43 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The only other thing the Dems do is just introduce a real simple bill that extends just the middle class. Then they get a vote on it or force the Reps to filibuster it. In 2014 every single campaign ad references the Reps being obstructionist and raising taxes on the middle class. Then an ass kicking occurs in the midterm election.

The best thing for the Reps would be to support the middle class tax cuts and try to take at least 50% of the credit by calling them bipartisan tax cuts. Instead the Reps are being morons and dying on the beachhead for the rich.


THIS ^ ^ ^ bears repeating. Conservatives in this thread, pay attention to THIS ^ ^ ^ and write your rep/senator to do just that.

/it isn't like old, rich, white folk are going to go out and vote Dem en masse right now, so the Reps might as well give Obama ~1.2 trillion or so in additional tax revenue and let it ride


Old rich white people aren't going to do much except be bitter, pass their close-mindedness on to their kids, and die.
 
2012-11-24 04:34:20 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: whistleridge
These next two years are going to be derpy, but beautiful.

More lost jobs, houses, pensions, savings, hopes, dreams and aspirations;
yeah, just beautiful, if you are a sadist of the first order.


The economics say your predictions are wrong.

I'll bet you $10: four years from now, the unemployment rate will be under 6%, the budget will be clearly on its way to being balanced, the overwhelming majority of the country will have at least some health insurance, and GOP candidates will be scrambling to claim what credit they can, just like they do with Clinton these days:

1.bp.blogspot.com

And just like THIS ^ ^ crap, they'll be full of it then, too.

So yes: schadenfreude ist die schonste freude. These next four years are going to be politically beautiful, and not nearly as economically harmful as the doomday brigade would have you believe.
 
2012-11-24 04:35:34 PM  
Someone on the GOP side needs to kick the table so that house of cards can come tumbling down!
 
2012-11-24 04:36:32 PM  
Why is this piece of shiat who has never been elected to public office permitted to wield such power over duly elected Republican members of congress?

It's like they like being held captive. Stockholm Syndrome or something. Also a convenient premeditated absolution scheme:

"Sorry, my hands are tied: I can't be bothered to use my brain and be part of the national conversation about changing times and needs of the people who elected me; I signed a piece of paper several years ago."

Not only that, but he should be in federal PMITA prison for his Abramoff shenanigans at the very least.
 
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