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(Empire Magazine)   One hundred things you probably didn't know about the Lord of the Rings, both the book and film trilogy, including why the eagles didn't just fly everyone to Mount Doom and Gandalf's original name   (empireonline.com) divider line 178
    More: Cool, Mount Doom, Gandalf, polystyrene, Lord of the Rings, Viggo Mortensen, Discworld, Uruk  
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14178 clicks; posted to Geek » on 24 Nov 2012 at 7:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 03:12:13 PM

Mugato: HeartBurnKid: Before then, Sauron has his all-seeing eye, and could easily order the Nazgul to take them down.

Well obviously not all seeing, if the hobbits just walked in.


Well, not completely all-seeing, but two short farkers in a mountain pass is a hell of a lot more inconspicuous than a flock of giant eagles flying through the air.
 
2012-11-24 03:15:11 PM
102.) Tom Bombadil was cut because that whole chapter would have slowed the movie down further.
103.) "The Scouring of the Shire" for the same reason. But Saruman's death would have been better.
 
2012-11-24 03:18:27 PM

ZeroCorpse: Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.


As good an explanation for why not as any I've heard, thanks.
 
2012-11-24 03:26:54 PM

Blue_Blazer: NeoCortex42: Blue_Blazer: Interesting analysis. However, how do you account for Bilbo riding the eagles while in possession of the Ring?

Sauron's power was still weak? He was much stronger by the time Frodo was on his trip.

Yeah I'm not sure I buy this whole line of thinking.

To me, the two best explanations are:
Manwe wouldn't let them because it was up to Men to see it done. OR
The Eagles would not have been very secret, and the full might of Sauron could have dealt with them if he saw them coming. It was not until the Ring was destroyed that the eagles save Frodo, when the might of Sauron was thrown down.


In the Hobbit neither the Eagles, the dwarves, Gandalf, or Bilbo knew what the ring was. And among them, the only one who knew the ring existed was Bilbo. The eagles only carried them for a short distance, compared to a multi-day journey which would have been required to mount doom.

Even then, Sauron WAS much weaker in the Hobbit because Gandalf had recently kicked him (the necromancer) out of Mirkwood.
 
2012-11-24 03:28:19 PM

MooseUpNorth: ZeroCorpse: Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.

As good an explanation for why not as any I've heard, thanks.


Then what about an Eagle carrying Frodo carrying the Ring? What is Eaglese for "I can't carry the Ring for you, Mr. Frodo. But I can carry you!"
 
2012-11-24 03:35:09 PM
Dribble, dribble, dribble, fake, dribble, dribble shoot!!

The dread Ballhog has no wings.

Having read Bored of the Rings made me giggle during the movie.

"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!"

No shiat Gandalf, he's a Ballhog!
 
2012-11-24 03:37:19 PM
Why didn't the ring corrupt the eagle when it carried Bilbo?

Who's to say it didn't, and maybe THAT is why they refused to carry a Ringbearer a second time?

How many stories of the eagles did we really get? Do we know what happened to those specific eagles after the Battle of Five Armies? Are there tales detailing exactly what kind of mood the eagle that bore Bilbo was in after that extremely brief encounter?

The eagles knew all along, and it was nothing they wanted to be involved in. They helped on the few occasions they did when it suited them, and they stayed far away from the ring after that first time. They'd had enough.

And YES, humans around Frodo were all corrupted to varying degrees upon seeing the ring. Boromir actually had it in hand (by the chain) for a moment (just a moment!) and that probably drove him bugnuts with obsession.

I stand by my explanation: Eagles won't go anywhere near that f♥cking ring, and they certainly won't carry the Ringbearer, because they know damn well that it's too risky.

Frodo carried the ring because it was a curse and burden that Hobbits and Hobbits alone could bear for longer than a few moments. Anyone else who even touched it was almost instantly in the power of Dark Lord, and for most races it was tempting and awful (in every sense of the word) to even be close to it.

In other words: BECAUSE MAGIC, STUPID.
 
2012-11-24 03:41:09 PM

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


Relevant to any thread with Tom Bombadil....

art2.server01.sheezyart.com
 
2012-11-24 03:45:31 PM
Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys, and everyone on one team will always help each other. The Eagles are their own race with their own kingdom, they make decisions based on what will help their own kind, not everyone's. They don't like Sauron, but if Sauron wins the war, they fly somewhere else. There's very little at stake for them (at least in their eyes), so there's no reason to risk their lives.

They help out at the end because that's when they chose to, not because someone suddenly remembered to ask them.
 
2012-11-24 03:46:11 PM

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.



This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.
 
2012-11-24 04:00:11 PM

Pelvic Splanchnic Ganglion: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Can we just short-circuit this whole thing now?

http://www.xenite.org/special/do-balr ogs-have-wings-do-balrogs-fly/
 
2012-11-24 04:00:43 PM

ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


seriously this guy wins, don't ask me what be he definitely wins.
 
2012-11-24 04:02:26 PM

Hoboclown: Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys, and everyone on one team will always help each other. The Eagles are their own race with their own kingdom, they make decisions based on what will help their own kind, not everyone's. They don't like Sauron, but if Sauron wins the war, they fly somewhere else. There's very little at stake for them (at least in their eyes), so there's no reason to risk their lives.

They help out at the end because that's when they chose to, not because someone suddenly remembered to ask them.


One aspect of Middle Earth that has no equivalent in the real world is different orders of sentient beings, some of which not only have independent gods, but are closer to their gods than other beings.
 
2012-11-24 04:03:44 PM

Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.


First, I'm going to copy-paste some mileage data from another website, because I'm lazy like that:


Hobbiton to Rivendale 500+ miles
Hobbiton to Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) 1000+ miles
Hobbiton to Grey Havens 150 miles
Rivendale to Durin's Gate (Moria) 150 miles
Durin's Gate to Lothlorien 100 miles (!)
Lorien on Anduin to the falls of Rauros 300 miles
The falls of Rauros to the nearest approaches to Fanghorn 150 miles
The crossing of Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes at least 150 miles
Edoras to Helm's Deep 60 miles Meriadoc, Peregrin
Isengard to Helm's Deep 75 miles
Edoras to Minas Tirith 300 miles
Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil (Morgul) 50 miles
Morannon to Minas Morgul 110+ miles
Minas Tirith to Morannon 160+ miles
Minas Morgul to Barad-dur by way of the Isenmouthe nearly 200 miles
Barad-dur to Orodruin 30-50 miles


Here's how that would have gone down:

* Eagle picks up Frodo in Rivendell to begin the flight of several hundred miles. Eagles travel at about 35 miles per hour, give or take 10 mph, and that's when they're not carrying 50+ pounds of Hobbit and the "unbearable" weight of The One Ring.

* About 1/4 of the way on the journey, the eagle bearing Frodo begins to really feel the weight of The One Ring. He also begins to feel a lust in his heart, and resentment for the wingless creature on his back.

* About 1/2 way to Mordor, they're spotted and Ring Wraiths attack. Assuming there was a whole flock of Eagles to fight them off, and they survive the attack, there's still the problem with the eagles who come near Frodo being altered by the ring's influence.

* About 3/4 through the journey, the eagle bearing Frodo decides that HE deserves the ring, not this stupid little Hobbit. He does a fancy spin in the air, and Frodo drops to the ground. The eagles then all dive for the ring, and begin fighting amongst themselves.

* Middle Earth is f♥cked. The end.
 
2012-11-24 04:19:39 PM

Funbags: You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.


The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles.
 
2012-11-24 04:35:44 PM

Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.


One, wasn't there a thing about the Nazgul and their mounts being immune to most weapons?

Two, the eagles might have felt the loss of "a couple, at most" would be unacceptable.
 
2012-11-24 04:36:14 PM

cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.


Pardon me, but I thought he started writing LOTR in the mid-to-late-thirties. The eagles do help at the end.
And then the eagles did make movies about how awesome they are and how they won the whole war singlehandedly.

/American war movies almost always piss me off. Especially the one where they singlehandedly capture an enigma machine. Or the one where Mel Gibson and his plucky and totally not racist (because there was a black guy) friends defeat the demonic British.
 
2012-11-24 04:38:33 PM

syrynxx: Then what about an Eagle carrying Frodo carrying the Ring? What is Eaglese for "I can't carry the Ring for you, Mr. Frodo. But I can carry you!"


In Eaglese, it's "the key word here is 'touching the ringbearer', not 'touching the ring'. Learn to read, dumbass." My Eaglese is a bit rusty, though, so I might be getting a nuance or two slightly wrong.
 
2012-11-24 04:52:02 PM

NeoCortex42: thrasherrr: NeoCortex42: farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?

Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.

Shrek has five films in its franchise, and it has more adult content that you apparently know about.

/kids aren't going to get John Woo references, see the third meaning behind the 'ogres are like onions' dialog, or notice delicate subversion of traditional characters into real-world caricatures

Kids wouldn't get a lot of the references in the My Little Ponies show. Doesn't mean it's not a kids show.
The adult stuff is there just to make it bearable for the parents.


That could be true if Shrek weren't deliberately made for adults, over the objections of some of the producers. Nearly the entire first Shrek film is made of disguised 'adult stuff.'
 
2012-11-24 04:57:18 PM
There are plenty of good reasons why the eagles didn't just fly them to Mount Doom. The larger difficulty is why no one at the Council brought it up.
 
2012-11-24 05:07:45 PM

Modguy: Eh. Sauron turned him self in to Manwe's Herald at the end of the first age, and had a change of heart and ran like hell. Keep in mind that at the time, Sauron was still VERY good at deception, and changed his will and outward nature enough that he could have reasonably posed as a good Maia that did not wish to return to Valinor, and I believe masqueraded as a Maia of Aule to the elves/dwarves/men. It wasn't until the Fall of Numenor, when he was destroyed and essentially stuck in his horrid form was he truly exposed to all.


Another point: Sauron saw the size of the their army and immediately humbled himself before the Numenoreans when they returned to Middle Earth in the Second Age. This indicates that he was not anywhere close to Melkor/Morgoth's power. The Valar had good reason to neglect Sauron, the Balrog, and the remaining Dragons. All of them were well within the ability of Men, Elves, and Dwarves to handle.

Of course, after Sauron got taken off to Numenor as a prisoner, the Valar apparently realized the folly of that idea and sent the Istari to lend a hand.
 
2012-11-24 05:08:44 PM

MadSkillz: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Pardon me, but I thought he started writing LOTR in the mid-to-late-thirties. The eagles do help at the end.
And then the eagles did make movies about how awesome they are and how they won the whole war singlehandedly.

/American war movies almost always piss me off. Especially the one where they singlehandedly capture an enigma machine. Or the one where Mel Gibson and his plucky and totally not racist (because there was a black guy) friends defeat the demonic British.


Not sure why all the folks arguing about the supposed allegory haven't mentioned "Beowulf, the Monsters, and the Critics" yet. Link
 
2012-11-24 05:17:34 PM

ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.


Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.
 
2012-11-24 05:19:09 PM

teto85: But Saruman's death would have been better.


Well my point is that they actually filmed it and put it on the cutting room floor.
 
2012-11-24 05:32:42 PM

Wenchmaster: Modguy: Eh. Sauron turned him self in to Manwe's Herald at the end of the first age, and had a change of heart and ran like hell. Keep in mind that at the time, Sauron was still VERY good at deception, and changed his will and outward nature enough that he could have reasonably posed as a good Maia that did not wish to return to Valinor, and I believe masqueraded as a Maia of Aule to the elves/dwarves/men. It wasn't until the Fall of Numenor, when he was destroyed and essentially stuck in his horrid form was he truly exposed to all.

Another point: Sauron saw the size of the their army and immediately humbled himself before the Numenoreans when they returned to Middle Earth in the Second Age. This indicates that he was not anywhere close to Melkor/Morgoth's power. The Valar had good reason to neglect Sauron, the Balrog, and the remaining Dragons. All of them were well within the ability of Men, Elves, and Dwarves to handle.

Of course, after Sauron got taken off to Numenor as a prisoner, the Valar apparently realized the folly of that idea and sent the Istari to lend a hand.


Not quite, your timings a bit off. The Istari didn't go until the middle of the 3rd Age, while Sauron went to Numenor at the end of the 2nd Age. And even his surrender there was tactical...he knew that force of might would destroy his armies, so he allowed himself to be taken prisoner. But it wasn't long before he was the real power in Numenor, and set the policy of invading Valinor itself. And even in that invasion Manwe himself realized that there was a good chance of the Valar losing, which would basically leave Sauron as the only Power left in the world, which is why he and the rest of the Valar called on Eru to take over for a little while, with the result of the World itself being reformed.

What Sauron did, uniquely amoung all of the Tolkein gods, was bind his power to a physical form...that's what allowed him to 'die' at the end of LotR. Morgoth was never 'killed', he was banished outside of the physical world, but remains a sentient, existing, 'real' thing outside the Walls. It's arguable that Saruman wasn't 'killed', but rather banished from the West, and doomed to wander as a powerless spirit. The Balrogs are a more difficult case, but Tolkein himself doesn't really seem to have known what to do with them.
 
2012-11-24 05:39:32 PM
NeoCortex42
Funbags:
You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles


And even then it took them several days until they agreed to do something about it.
That was one of the things I didn't like in the second movie; the Ents weren't really Ent-ish:

Treebeard: "Sorry, I don't care. Now get lost, I'll bring you to the door."
Hobbit: "Look over there, Treebeard!"
Treebeard: "Da fugg? I had no idea. Saruman, you orcf*cker. HURRRR FANGORN SMASH"
 
2012-11-24 05:42:21 PM

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


I giggled at your dialogue. Lolz Switzerland.

Tom I figured was just so flipping old that he's senile, but he's also part of the place he lives- neutral- like nature. Sure it's not nice to fool Mother Nature, but she's mostly neutral. Everything wants to survive- there's no morality in nature.
So he can bend the 3-d fabric of his reality in magical ways, but does not care to think of applying it in ways of power. Why? Who knows? I always figured he became enamored of the place he lives.

/named my dog Goldberry. I miss her. I have my Chessie named Galadriel now. Had a dog named Frodo. Had to have my 13 yr. old terrier Bilbo put down, and then went to see the Fellowship again to console myself.
Why did I type all that? Dunno but there it is.
 
2012-11-24 05:45:30 PM

ZeroCorpse: Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.

First, I'm going to copy-paste some mileage data from another website, because I'm lazy like that:


Hobbiton to Rivendale 500+ miles
Hobbiton to Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) 1000+ miles
Hobbiton to Grey Havens 150 miles
Rivendale to Durin's Gate (Moria) 150 miles
Durin's Gate to Lothlorien 100 miles (!)
Lorien on Anduin to the falls of Rauros 300 miles
The falls of Rauros to the nearest approaches to Fanghorn 150 miles
The crossing of Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes at least 150 miles
Edoras to Helm's Deep 60 miles Meriadoc, Peregrin
Isengard to Helm's Deep 75 miles
Edoras to Minas Tirith 300 miles
Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil (Morgul) 50 miles
Morannon to Minas Morgul 110+ miles
Minas Tirith to Morannon 160+ miles
Minas Morgul to Barad-dur by way of the Isenmouthe nearly 200 miles
Barad-dur to Orodruin 30-50 miles


Here's how that would have gone down: ...


There are numerous ridiculous assumptions with your take.

I'll begin with you pulling 35 MPH directly out of your ass. These aren't bald eagles as found on Earth, these are Great Eagles; giant, sentient, sapient, unlike any bird found on Earth. Please cite ANY Middle Earth source on the speed of Great Eagles can fly (laden or unladen), then get back to me.

Actually, never mind, let's just assume Great Eagles can only fly a max of 35 MPH. That means in order for them to arrive on time to save Frodo and Sam from the destruction of Mount Doom, they would have had to begin their ~3500 mile flight 4 days in advance (3500 miles / 35 miles per hour = 100 hours / 24 hours in a day = ~4 days)

Four days. Without resting. Frodo & Co wouldn't even have reached Mordor by the time the Great Eagles were persuaded to depart to oick them up at Mount Doom.

Also, its evident that the "burden" of the ring doesn't not manifest in actual increased weight/mass, only its bearer's perception. Otherwise, you claim that Frodo started to notice the ring's "weight" around his neck at the 1/4 mark, how much did it weigh when he was right at the doorstep of Mt Doom? A thousand pounds? Two thousand? How convenient that a weak/malnourished/exhausted hobbit not only had the strength to stand upright, and to fight Gollum at the end, but that an equally weak/malnourished/exhausted hobbit had the strength to carry that hobbit up to Mt Doom's ledge. According to you, Samwise must basically be as strong as the Hulk.

Also, since you overlooked it in the post you replied to, I proposed that a "shock troop" of a few hundred Great Eagles would clear the path through the air to Mount Doom, slaughtering the 9 Nazgul reliant on their fell-beasts, with very minimal casualties.

With the Nazgul defeated, Sauron would be defenseless against air attacks, and a 2nd wave of Eagles carrying Frodo would waltz on in. Frodo would be much further from Mount Doom's influence than he was on the ground at the very end. He'd still be in control, and he'd be eager to deposit his burden from the air. All while the Eye watched, and not even a billion orcs could intercede.

Again, its a 40 page novel where good guys spend more time ridiculing Sauron that actually being worried about the useless army he is massing.
 
2012-11-24 05:48:22 PM

NeoCortex42: Funbags: You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles.


The Ents realized the contempt Saruman's army had for not just trees, but nature itself. The Eagle were at least, if not more intelligent that the Ents, and would have realized that even they have to land, eventually.
 
2012-11-24 05:49:48 PM

ZeroCorpse: Zombalupagus: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.

I vote for non-functional wings.


As God is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly.
 
2012-11-24 05:52:06 PM

Alphax: ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...

In the end, even Frodo would not willingly part with the Ring, and if it were not for Gollum, he would have failed.

(though the movie did mess around with WHY Gollum fell in.. they cut the part near the end where Gollum tries for the Ring, and Frodo grabs it and orders Gollum not to touch him ever again, else he will be cast into the fire himself)


Exactly. If the eagles had flown Frodo to Mt Doom, he would have refused to destroy it. It was much too powerful to ever let someone destroy it.
 
2012-11-24 05:53:23 PM

LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.


Actually, Ugluk was a decent Orc: he led his troops well, was disciplined enough to not get distracted by Merry and Pippin's attempted escape, and was given the honor of Eomer dismounting to fight him hand to hand. He died, of course, but died fighting, not running. All in all, pretty admirable.
 
2012-11-24 05:55:37 PM

Funbags: Also, since you overlooked it in the post you replied to, I proposed that a "shock troop" of a few hundred Great Eagles would clear the path through the air to Mount Doom, slaughtering the 9 Nazgul reliant on their fell-beasts, with very minimal casualties.

With the Nazgul defeated, Sauron would be defenseless against air attacks, and a 2nd wave of Eagles carrying Frodo would waltz on in. Frodo would be much further from Mount Doom's influence than he was on the ground at the very end. He'd still be in control, and he'd be eager to deposit his burden from the air. All while the Eye watched, and not even a billion orcs could intercede.

Again, its a 40 page novel where good guys spend more time ridiculing Sauron that actually being worried about the useless army he is massing.


You should have told Olorin about your great plan, General. It's all your fault the Walkers had to trudge all the way across Middle Earth.
 
2012-11-24 05:59:54 PM

Son of Thunder: Women who lusted after Sean Bean in set were called "Beanstalkers"

I'd have thought they'd be called "deathstalkers", since that's what Sean Bean does best.


content6.flixster.com

Oh hai guyz what's going on in this thread?
 
2012-11-24 06:04:19 PM

HeartBurnKid: Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.

One, wasn't there a thing about the Nazgul and their mounts being immune to most weapons?

Two, the eagles might have felt the loss of "a couple, at most" would be unacceptable.


Incorrect. The Witch-King could not be harmed by mortal men, but mortal women (and hobbits) could (and did) fark him up properly. AFAIK, this protection didn't apply to the other Nazgul, but let's pretend it did, since it still wouldn't matter.

The Great Eagles were far more complex than mortal men, and even then, they merely had to kill the flying fell-beasts the immortal Nazgul used as mounts. The fell-beasts were clearly able to be farked up my mortal men, so hundreds of attacking Great Eagles would have turned them into meat pinatas.
 
2012-11-24 06:21:50 PM

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.
 
2012-11-24 06:48:25 PM
It's also possible Gandalf knew (because some Valar or Eru or someone told him) that the only way to destroy the Ring was to give it to Frodo. He had some inkling that Gollum would play a role, after all.

Remember, they all decided that Frodo would take the Ring. Not Aragorn or someone else better qualified. Even if the Eagles could be convinced to help, they almost certainly would have taken it for themselves, sort of like how Galadriel would have done things. Kind of like what led to the Fall of Numenor. They would have taken over Middle Earth in the name of Sauron, and then they would have assaulted Valinor. End of the world.

You can't trust the Ring with anyone powerful. Hobbits were special because they were weak and innocent, and even they only won because of shenanigans with Gollum (the best character in all of fantasy literature).
 
2012-11-24 06:59:29 PM
Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Interesting read.

I think the author missed on one thing tho - he describes Bombadils' lands as a kind of a void.

Morgoth was cast into the void

Tom Bombadil *is* Morgoth

/dumdumDUM!
 
2012-11-24 07:09:28 PM
The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)
 
2012-11-24 07:40:34 PM

give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.


Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.
 
2012-11-24 07:58:00 PM
On second thought, Bombadil is too old to be a barrow wight.

I still think Goldberry might be a dryad, though.
 
2012-11-24 07:59:08 PM

NetOwl: give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.


I thought the explanation was that Tom was himself a being of the ancient world and while he could resist the ring he could only do so on his land. IIRC Gandalf explained at the Council of Elrond that even if they gave the ring to Tom it wouldn't mean a thing since Sauron could still conquer Middle Earth through sheer force of arms.
 
2012-11-24 08:06:44 PM

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


I came here to say this. Thanks for saving me the bother.
 
2012-11-24 08:19:17 PM
1 thing I still don't know, what was Durthang supposed to defend?
 
2012-11-24 08:22:13 PM
When I first got online, I went looking for the Tolkien newsgroup. I didn't expect to find them waging the War of the (Balrog) Wings.
 
2012-11-24 08:23:19 PM
100 also doubles as "wow, I forgot how beautiful Liv Tyler can be"
 
2012-11-24 08:27:41 PM

Flappyhead: NetOwl: give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.

I thought the explanation was that Tom was himself a being of the ancient world and while he could resist the ring he could only do so on his land. IIRC Gandalf explained at the Council of Elrond that even if they gave the ring to Tom it wouldn't mean a thing since Sauron could still conquer Middle Earth through sheer force of arms.


It's not that he could only resist the ring on his land, he could resist it anywhere. The problem is that the ring would have so little influence over him (none) that he wouldn't consider it dangerous and wouldn't take proper care of it long term. So eventually Sauron would find it and regain it. The only real long term solution was to destroy the ring.
 
2012-11-24 08:48:59 PM

FloydA:
103: The eagles were not able to fly everyone to Mount Doom because Henley was touring with his solo band at the time.
i>

I ROFL'd mightily.

 
2012-11-24 09:05:49 PM

LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.


In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.
 
2012-11-24 09:18:34 PM

Nemo's Brother: LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.

In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.


Where was it written that only Elves were seen on the alliance side? Were there evil Ents and Eagles that fought for Sauron. Nope, the orcs all fought for Sauron or Saruman.
 
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