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(Empire Magazine)   One hundred things you probably didn't know about the Lord of the Rings, both the book and film trilogy, including why the eagles didn't just fly everyone to Mount Doom and Gandalf's original name   (empireonline.com) divider line 178
    More: Cool, Mount Doom, Gandalf, polystyrene, Lord of the Rings, Viggo Mortensen, Discworld, Uruk  
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14181 clicks; posted to Geek » on 24 Nov 2012 at 7:34 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 07:39:30 AM  
The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.
 
2012-11-24 08:00:32 AM  

Jim_Callahan: There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


Very much this. If they can simply walk into Mordor with the Ring and not be detected, why would an army of huge eagles be in any kind of real danger from the lying beasts the Nazgul had? Just put a few archers on every eagle and shoot the critters down.
 
2012-11-24 08:20:00 AM  
 
2012-11-24 08:20:19 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


I seem to remember from The Hobbit that it was kind of a big deal just to get the Eagles to help as little as they did in that adventure. They basically just picked the dwarves up out of some trees and carried them a ways.
 
2012-11-24 08:21:01 AM  
Jim_Callahan
There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble,


Yeah, maybe in the movie.
It has been ages since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure the ring, Sauron, the Nazgul and pretty much most of Mordor were gone when the eagles "went in and out with no trouble"; IIRC the eagles appeared at the battle at about the same time when the Nazgul were rushing back towards Mount Doom.
 
2012-11-24 08:23:57 AM  
How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.
 
2012-11-24 08:25:45 AM  
101: Stuart Townsend was originally cast as Aragon. They spent a week filming some of his scenes before they realized he sucked as an actor. Queen of the Damned" and "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" proved it.
 
2012-11-24 08:26:39 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


They only owed ONE favor, and each taxi direction is a favor?
 
2012-11-24 08:30:25 AM  
Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.
 
2012-11-24 08:45:02 AM  

taurusowner: Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.


DNRTFA, but when they arrived, wasn't it specifically as a favor to Gandalf?

As you said, the eagles were either under no obligation to help, or prohibited from helping too much, or, like honey badgers, didn't give a shiat.

I'd say the error in storytelling, if any is to be argued at all, was them helping in the Hobbit, not their failure to help in LOTR.
 
2012-11-24 08:48:28 AM  
Women who lusted after Sean Bean in set were called "Beanstalkers"

I'd have thought they'd be called "deathstalkers", since that's what Sean Bean does best.
 
2012-11-24 08:49:37 AM  
Does it explain why, with all the walking and crying scenes in these ponderous movies, Christopher Lee (the Darth Vader of the series)'s fate was left for the DVD?
 
2012-11-24 08:52:52 AM  

born_yesterday: I'd say the error in storytelling, if any is to be argued at all, was them helping in the Hobbit, not their failure to help in LOTR.


In The Hobbit, the crew is treed by a bunch of wolfs and goblins. I think the only reason the eagles helped was because, "Hey, fark goblins!" That's why they couldn't get them to carry them very far. They had other shiat to do.
 
2012-11-24 08:58:16 AM  
They could have thrown in a line of dialog that the eagles won't help because they don't interfere with the business of other races. That would have made for a bigger payoff when they eventually rescue Dildo and Mary at the end.
 
2012-11-24 09:05:05 AM  
Link

It didn't have Lo Pan in it.
 
2012-11-24 09:10:17 AM  

Mugato: They could have thrown in a line of dialog that the eagles won't help because they don't interfere with the business of other races. That would have made for a bigger payoff when they eventually rescue Dildo and Mary at the end.


Maybe. But then the less observant and literate viewers might pitch a fit when the eagles did help Gandalf and Frodo and Sam at the end. Of course there are specific reasons why that was ok for them, but not ok for them to carry the Ring to Mt. Doom. But I have a feeling that subtlety would be lost on many viewers. And hanging a lampshade on them not interfering might just make it an even bigger deal.
 
2012-11-24 09:12:41 AM  
Why didn't the eagles just fly the ring into Mordor?

It would've made LotR into a short story. That's why.


/also, The Mouth of Sauron was played by Bruce Spence, the gyro captain from The Road Warrior
//the more you know
 
2012-11-24 09:34:31 AM  

taurusowner: Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.


Sauron was a Maiar (once? still?). How is mitigating the damage one of your own inflicts, in direct opposition of the order to not interfere, wrong? Having an overwhelmingly powerful enemy against ordinary people and then hoping everything works out seems much more intrusive if you ask me.
 
2012-11-24 09:35:43 AM  

Mugato: Does it explain why, with all the walking and crying scenes in these ponderous movies, Christopher Lee (the Darth Vader of the series)'s fate was left for the DVD?


The Trololo song wasn't 'discovered' until after the movies were released in theatres :P
 
2012-11-24 09:36:59 AM  
For anybody here that likes The Hobbit, you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy of the annotated version. It's pretty interesting seeing all the thought and references that went into Tolkien's writing.
 
2012-11-24 09:38:05 AM  
Jackson should really, really downplay the role of the eagles in the Hobbit. They came to the rescue twice in the LOTR movies. They're going to do it again in the Hobbit, twice, if Jackson holds to the book. It's going to look like a lame deus ex machina by the end of the third Hobbit film.
 
2012-11-24 09:39:29 AM  
 
2012-11-24 09:40:56 AM  

Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.


Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.
 
2012-11-24 09:41:34 AM  

Richard_The_Clown: 101: Stuart Townsend was originally cast as Aragon. They spent a week filming some of his scenes before they realized he sucked as an actor. Queen of the Damned" and "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" proved it.


So they decided to ditch the acting requirement and go for someone who looked better in a wig?
 
2012-11-24 09:51:45 AM  

czei: Richard_The_Clown: 101: Stuart Townsend was originally cast as Aragon. They spent a week filming some of his scenes before they realized he sucked as an actor. Queen of the Damned" and "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" proved it.

So they decided to ditch the acting requirement and go for someone who looked better in a wig?


He was fired because he wasn't greasy enough.
 
2012-11-24 09:55:52 AM  

The Voice of Doom: Jim_Callahan
There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble,

Yeah, maybe in the movie.
It has been ages since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure the ring, Sauron, the Nazgul and pretty much most of Mordor were gone when the eagles "went in and out with no trouble"; IIRC the eagles appeared at the battle at about the same time when the Nazgul were rushing back towards Mount Doom.


The Nazgul are clearly seen being destroyed at the fall of Barad-dûr.
 
2012-11-24 09:56:45 AM  

DerAppie: taurusowner: Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.

Sauron was a Maiar (once? still?). How is mitigating the damage one of your own inflicts, in direct opposition of the order to not interfere, wrong? Having an overwhelmingly powerful enemy against ordinary people and then hoping everything works out seems much more intrusive if you ask me.


Except I don't think there was any "hoping" involved. Within the Tolkein universe, what essentially amounts to angels, archangels, and God do indeed exists. It's very possible that the Valar left Sauron in Middle Earth because they already knew that the people of Middle Earth would be able to win in the end. Not quite the "here's the exact reason" answer you might have been looking for, but in the context of LotR, it fits pretty well. Eru Illuvatar (God in LotR) did many things even the Valar didn't understand. Even when Gandalf says to Frodo that "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker." he was very likely referring to Eru.

Middle Earth could not deal with Morgoth on their own, and in the end The Valar came and saved them. But one of his servants, Sauron, was a challenge that was just small enough that Middle Earth could indeed win on their own. And they did. Eru knew this. Is that the reason why the Valar would not directly intervene or send agents (the eagles, other Maiar acting with their full power) to intervene either? Tolekin doesn't say. But it would make sense within the context of the LotR universe.
 
Slu
2012-11-24 09:58:53 AM  
Nerds.jpg
 
2012-11-24 09:59:16 AM  

Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.


'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
 
2012-11-24 10:03:45 AM  

taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-24 10:12:07 AM  
I found the lack of Tom Bombadil and Ent draughts, disturbing.


/my only gripe
 
2012-11-24 10:15:59 AM  

fozziewazzi: Jackson should really, really downplay the role of the eagles in the Hobbit. They came to the rescue twice in the LOTR movies. They're going to do it again in the Hobbit, twice, if Jackson holds to the book. It's going to look like a lame deus ex machina by the end of the third Hobbit film.


It will look that way because they are a lame deus ex machina.
 
2012-11-24 10:24:09 AM  
i97.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-24 10:26:59 AM  

czei: Richard_The_Clown: 101: Stuart Townsend was originally cast as Aragon. They spent a week filming some of his scenes before they realized he sucked as an actor. Queen of the Damned" and "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" proved it.

So they decided to ditch the acting requirement and go for someone who looked better in a wig?


The official reason was that Stuart Townsend couldn't conceivably pass for a man of 87
 
2012-11-24 10:29:20 AM  

Son of Thunder: I'd have thought they'd be called "deathstalkers", since that's what Sean Bean does best.


On the set of "Game of Thrones" Sean Bean groupies were called "headhunters".
 
2012-11-24 10:30:30 AM  

GRCooper: also, The Mouth of Sauron was played by Bruce Spence, the gyro captain from The Road Warrior


Mind Blown....
 
2012-11-24 10:34:16 AM  

GRCooper: Why didn't the eagles just fly the ring into Mordor?

It would've made LotR into a short story. That's why.


/also, The Mouth of Sauron was played by Bruce Spence, the gyro captain from The Road Warrior
//the more you know


wow...you should invent a site with all the cast and crew from films...it could have trivia like this here Bruce Spence trivia...you could call it "the internet trivia movie database" or something like that...

i'm sure it would be a big hit...
 
2012-11-24 10:35:02 AM  

fozziewazzi: Jackson should really, really downplay the role of the eagles in the Hobbit. They came to the rescue twice in the LOTR movies. They're going to do it again in the Hobbit, twice, if Jackson holds to the book. It's going to look like a lame deus ex machina by the end of the third Hobbit film.


The only people who would care about something like that are people who are over-analyzing the movies, and don't understand the story.

So they are being overly critical AND not knowledgeable of Tolkien's stories. Therefore, it doesn't really matter what they think.
 
2012-11-24 10:37:49 AM  
I learned that Viggo is one dedicated method actor.
 
2012-11-24 10:43:21 AM  
The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.
 
2012-11-24 10:46:32 AM  

cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.


Tolkien hated allegory, so no.
 
2012-11-24 10:50:31 AM  

TheWizard: fozziewazzi: Jackson should really, really downplay the role of the eagles in the Hobbit. They came to the rescue twice in the LOTR movies. They're going to do it again in the Hobbit, twice, if Jackson holds to the book. It's going to look like a lame deus ex machina by the end of the third Hobbit film.

The only people who would care about something like that are people who are over-analyzing the movies, and don't understand the story.

So they are being overly critical AND not knowledgeable of Tolkien's stories. Therefore, it doesn't really matter what they think.


You don't need to be over-analytical when you see the same very specific device used, twice, to get characters out of a sticky situation in both trilogies. If Jackson holds to the book we'll see the eagles yet again plucking a hero out of harms' way in the first Hobbit film, and then coming to the rescue during a critical battle in the last film. Even to the most casual fans of the film series it's going to look amatuerish. I don't see how Jackson can pull this off without making some changes to the original story.
 
2012-11-24 10:50:48 AM  

taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Which leads to the question, why didn't he use them?

Answer:
In the special, super extended edition you can see Gandalf has an Earthbind Magic:TG card in his hand.
 
2012-11-24 10:53:53 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


The eagles were a metaphor used by Tolkien to symbolize the americans in WW1, who didn't help at all until the war was basically already decided (Albeit still far from over). "coming late for every war". Was meant as aa subtile insult towards the americans.

/this is all AFAIK, anyway.
 
2012-11-24 11:03:06 AM  

cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.


Damn, missed it by THAT much.
 
2012-11-24 11:03:53 AM  

Smoking GNU:
The eagles were a metaphor used by Tolkien to symbolize the americans in WW1, who didn't help at all until the war was basically already decided (Albeit still far from over). "coming late for every war". Was meant as aa subtile insult towards the americans.

/this is all AFAIK, anyway.


As I've just learned from three posts ago, Tolkien hated allegory, so I'm going to have to call Bravo Sierra on this and demand a citation.
 
2012-11-24 11:05:52 AM  
cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Tolkien hated allegory, so no.


And so Gandalf wasn't even a little bit of a Christ figure? Saruman (or however it's spelled) didn't represent forces of the industrial revolution?
 
2012-11-24 11:13:13 AM  

cowboybebop: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Tolkien hated allegory, so no.


And so Gandalf wasn't even a little bit of a Christ figure? Saruman (or however it's spelled) didn't represent forces of the industrial revolution?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acqOGX62gys
http://verdevivoverdechiaro.blogspot.com/2008/03/tolkien-allegory-and - applicability.html

From the foreword to The Lord of the Rings:
"I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, (...)"
Deeply move! That's an essential point about the epic.
"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches (...)" -- Then the author justifies there was no allegory of the war implied.
 
2012-11-24 11:13:44 AM  

Pelvic Splanchnic Ganglion: Smoking GNU:
The eagles were a metaphor used by Tolkien to symbolize the americans in WW1, who didn't help at all until the war was basically already decided (Albeit still far from over). "coming late for every war". Was meant as aa subtile insult towards the americans.

/this is all AFAIK, anyway.

As I've just learned from three posts ago, Tolkien hated allegory, so I'm going to have to call Bravo Sierra on this and demand a citation.


Link

It does also say in there that he denied LotR being an allegory, so take my point of view with a pinch of salt.
/Saw the bit about the eagles in a documentary about LotR (book), but then again, don't know if they sucked this out of their thumbs or anything.
 
2012-11-24 11:19:48 AM  
Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.

People read and watch, but they apparently don't think things through.
 
2012-11-24 11:22:36 AM  

cowboybebop: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Tolkien hated allegory, so no.


And so Gandalf wasn't even a little bit of a Christ figure? Saruman (or however it's spelled) didn't represent forces of the industrial revolution?


"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."


― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
 
2012-11-24 11:22:52 AM  

ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


Hmmm, didn't think about that one. Good point.
 
2012-11-24 11:24:31 AM  
"they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it."
-During the Council of Elrond

The Eagles belonged to Manwe, king of the Valar. The ring was Middle-Earth's problem and only the free people of Middle-Earth could take any direct action to destroy it.
 
2012-11-24 11:27:15 AM  

taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.
 
2012-11-24 11:33:15 AM  
I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.
 
2012-11-24 11:35:26 AM  

Zombalupagus: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.


I vote for non-functional wings.
 
2012-11-24 11:36:25 AM  

ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


In the end, even Frodo would not willingly part with the Ring, and if it were not for Gollum, he would have failed.

(though the movie did mess around with WHY Gollum fell in.. they cut the part near the end where Gollum tries for the Ring, and Frodo grabs it and orders Gollum not to touch him ever again, else he will be cast into the fire himself)
 
2012-11-24 11:41:52 AM  

ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.


The Seven Dwarf Lords who accepted rings from Sauron never faded into Ringwraiths; the Dwarves were made to endure. So Sauron worked hard to get them back, and succeeded with 3 of them. The other 4 perished in dragonfire.

Now, the corrupting power of the One Ring would be greater than that of the Seven. Hard to guess how much it would affect them.
 
2012-11-24 11:54:22 AM  

Alphax: In the end, even Frodo would not willingly part with the Ring, and if it were not for Gollum, he would have failed.


And that is probably the best reason why the Eagles couldn't have provided a magic shortcut - Frodo needed to fail, and his saving grace needed to be his earlier treatment of gollum. That was one of the major points of the book.
 
2012-11-24 11:56:46 AM  
And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.
 
2012-11-24 11:58:41 AM  
Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?
 
2012-11-24 12:01:28 PM  

farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?


Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.
 
2012-11-24 12:01:51 PM  
WEll it includes the Star Wars prequels too. Which as shiatty as they are, everyone still watched them. And paid their money.

I really hope after The Hobbit comes out, it bumps Shrek and Pirates of the Caribbean off the list. At least Bond, Harry Potter, and Star Wars have LotR movies beat number wise. But there's no reason a movie series as epic as LotR can't best two lame goofy kids movies.
 
2012-11-24 12:04:33 PM  

Alphax: (though the movie did mess around with WHY Gollum fell in.. they cut the part near the end where Gollum tries for the Ring, and Frodo grabs it and orders Gollum not to touch him ever again, else he will be cast into the fire himself)


I never understood why Jackson changed this part and some crucial bits of the Witch-king's fight. The film changes replaced the story impact of both scenes with trite Hollywood schmaltz.

/If I never see another actor hanging from something I'll be happier
 
2012-11-24 12:07:31 PM  

DerAppie: taurusowner: Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.

Sauron was a Maiar (once? still?). How is mitigating the damage one of your own inflicts, in direct opposition of the order to not interfere, wrong? Having an overwhelmingly powerful enemy against ordinary people and then hoping everything works out seems much more intrusive if you ask me.


Take a look at the map of Middle Earth. See in the far north west, that broken mountain range, and further west is big honkin ocean? In the first age, that was the EASTERN reaches of Beleriand, the land the elves came to after their self (and later, enforced) exile from Valinor. It's destroyed because what Morgoth damn near won it all, the Vala, Maia, and Elves who stayed faithful came and kicked some serious ass. The Vala looked around and said "Ohhh, fark. We better stay out of this shiat in the future before we destroy the world (again)"
 
kab
2012-11-24 12:09:24 PM  

Jim_Callahan: There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


Read the books, and you'll see why it's not a plot hole at all.
 
2012-11-24 12:12:22 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


It would have violated the Prime Directive.

Happy?
 
2012-11-24 12:13:12 PM  

taurusowner: DerAppie: taurusowner: Keep in mind the eagles were pretty much solely under the control on Manwe. And the Valar already had a "we're not doing it all for you" attitude. The Valar and Maiar for the most part restricted their interactions to giving advice and small miracles. Sending the eagles to carry the Ring all the way would have been too much interference.

Sauron was a Maiar (once? still?). How is mitigating the damage one of your own inflicts, in direct opposition of the order to not interfere, wrong? Having an overwhelmingly powerful enemy against ordinary people and then hoping everything works out seems much more intrusive if you ask me.

Except I don't think there was any "hoping" involved. Within the Tolkein universe, what essentially amounts to angels, archangels, and God do indeed exists. It's very possible that the Valar left Sauron in Middle Earth because they already knew that the people of Middle Earth would be able to win in the end. Not quite the "here's the exact reason" answer you might have been looking for, but in the context of LotR, it fits pretty well. Eru Illuvatar (God in LotR) did many things even the Valar didn't understand. Even when Gandalf says to Frodo that "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker." he was very likely referring to Eru.

Middle Earth could not deal with Morgoth on their own, and in the end The Valar came and saved them. But one of his servants, Sauron, was a challenge that was just small enough that Middle Earth could indeed win on their own. And they did. Eru knew this. Is that the reason why the Valar would not directly intervene or send agents (the eagles, other Maiar acting with their full power) to intervene either? Tolekin doesn't say. But it would make sense within the context of the LotR universe.


Eh. Sauron turned him self in to Manwe's Herald at the end of the first age, and had a change of heart and ran like hell. Keep in mind that at the time, Sauron was still VERY good at deception, and changed his will and outward nature enough that he could have reasonably posed as a good Maia that did not wish to return to Valinor, and I believe masqueraded as a Maia of Aule to the elves/dwarves/men. It wasn't until the Fall of Numenor, when he was destroyed and essentially stuck in his horrid form was he truly exposed to all.
 
2012-11-24 12:16:49 PM  

farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?


re-release after re-release after re-release
 
2012-11-24 12:20:12 PM  
Read the books many times, and it does indeed continue to be a plot hole.

Making it worse - the Eagles are able to fly to Mt. Doom. faster than the Nazgul can from the Black Gate even while carrying Gandalf.

As for "the ring corrupts them!", people seem to forget that Frodo was hanging around with humans and elves for MONTHS while carrying the ring in close proximity to them without any ill effects (Zerocorpse is very wrong).

It was a plot hole, everyone knows it, and no amount of retconning will change it. It simply didn't occur to Tolkien until after the fact.
 
2012-11-24 12:21:16 PM  

Tryfan: Read the books many times, and it does indeed continue to be a plot hole.


I suspect you've never read The Silmarillion.
 
2012-11-24 12:22:23 PM  

NeoCortex42: farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?

Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.


Shrek has five films in its franchise, and it has more adult content that you apparently know about.

/kids aren't going to get John Woo references, see the third meaning behind the 'ogres are like onions' dialog, or notice delicate subversion of traditional characters into real-world caricatures
 
2012-11-24 12:25:16 PM  

thrasherrr: NeoCortex42: farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?

Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.

Shrek has five films in its franchise, and it has more adult content that you apparently know about.

/kids aren't going to get John Woo references, see the third meaning behind the 'ogres are like onions' dialog, or notice delicate subversion of traditional characters into real-world caricatures


Kids wouldn't get a lot of the references in the My Little Ponies show. Doesn't mean it's not a kids show.

The adult stuff is there just to make it bearable for the parents.
 
2012-11-24 12:26:57 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.

People read and watch, but they apparently don't think things through.


Interesting analysis. However, how do you account for Bilbo riding the eagles while in possession of the Ring?
 
2012-11-24 12:28:23 PM  

Blue_Blazer: Interesting analysis. However, how do you account for Bilbo riding the eagles while in possession of the Ring?


Sauron's power was still weak? He was much stronger by the time Frodo was on his trip.
 
2012-11-24 12:32:29 PM  

thrasherrr: Alphax: (though the movie did mess around with WHY Gollum fell in.. they cut the part near the end where Gollum tries for the Ring, and Frodo grabs it and orders Gollum not to touch him ever again, else he will be cast into the fire himself)

I never understood why Jackson changed this part and some crucial bits of the Witch-king's fight. The film changes replaced the story impact of both scenes with trite Hollywood schmaltz.

/If I never see another actor hanging from something I'll be happier


THE ENTIRE FILM TRILOGY WAS TRITE SCHMALTZ.

*sigh*

/overrated movies are overrated
 
2012-11-24 12:34:50 PM  
101: Apparently, one actually does simply walk into Mordor.

102: Òleomárgerine is not actually a fully qualified wizard.

103: The eagles were not able to fly everyone to Mount Doom because Henley was touring with his solo band at the time.

104: Rómendacil is not an effective topical treatment for Gondorrhea.
 
2012-11-24 12:39:32 PM  
Gandalf's real name?

Goldberg. He changed it for "professional reasons".

/damn anti-Semitic elves
 
2012-11-24 12:44:07 PM  
Can I tell you how much I hate this movie? Jackson ruined Faramir, put Dwarf-tossing jokesin the film, gave us Aragorn over a cliff, made the Uruk-hai look like something out of KISS, gave us wizard-fu in Orthanc, turned Gollum into Jar Jar Binks, made Merry and Pippin into empty-headed idiots; there was a.stairsurfing Legolas, he made Denethor into Nixon, screwed up the Mouth of Sauron...aarrghh.

Okay, got Galadriel right, Gandalf, Saruman, and Frodo were casted correctly. Helms Deep wasn't bad. Other than that, fuggedabouddit.

Oh, and Gandalf's name was Olorin. The article fails to mention it. It's a piece of crap, too.
 
2012-11-24 12:44:35 PM  
fairly decent list but as a big fan of the books and movies i knew 90% of it already.
 
2012-11-24 12:45:49 PM  

NeoCortex42: Blue_Blazer: Interesting analysis. However, how do you account for Bilbo riding the eagles while in possession of the Ring?

Sauron's power was still weak? He was much stronger by the time Frodo was on his trip.


Yeah I'm not sure I buy this whole line of thinking.

To me, the two best explanations are:
Manwe wouldn't let them because it was up to Men to see it done. OR
The Eagles would not have been very secret, and the full might of Sauron could have dealt with them if he saw them coming. It was not until the Ring was destroyed that the eagles save Frodo, when the might of Sauron was thrown down.
 
2012-11-24 12:51:44 PM  
"Could you turn that down? I've had a bad day and I hate the farking eagles, man!"
 
2012-11-24 12:56:55 PM  
105: In the books, there was no "Battle of Minoxidil."

106: Helms Deep was named after Jesse Helms.

107: Bilbo's mom was not actually named "Bimbo Baggins." Her maiden name was "Took."

108: Gimlet, son of Gróin, was the tallest Dwarf.
 
2012-11-24 01:03:30 PM  

scotzrewl: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Tolkien hated allegory, so no.


My understanding wasn't that he hated allegory, but he hated the thought of the author dictating how the work should be interpreted. In my mind, the books are at least influenced by his life (WWI, WWII, and Christianity in particular), if not allegorical to him. I don't even think it's necessarily a conscious allegory, but it was an aspect of his experience that worked it's way into the books.

The idea of the eagles as Americans is a little too specific for this view, but I think the broad strokes are there.
 
2012-11-24 01:07:50 PM  

NeoCortex42: thrasherrr: NeoCortex42: farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?

Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.

Shrek has five films in its franchise, and it has more adult content that you apparently know about.

/kids aren't going to get John Woo references, see the third meaning behind the 'ogres are like onions' dialog, or notice delicate subversion of traditional characters into real-world caricatures

Kids wouldn't get a lot of the references in the My Little Ponies show. Doesn't mean it's not a kids show.

The adult stuff is there just to make it bearable for the parents.


Yeah but calling something a "kids show" usually just means it's shiat. Some things it doesn't matter how old you are.
 
2012-11-24 01:08:00 PM  
The Special Editions, in total, are 158 minutes longer than the Theatrical releases (718 minutes to 560 minutes).

Jesus Christ, Jackson, hire a farking editor. I'm available.

Yes, Jackson is a hugely successful filmmaker and I'm an editor and FX guy but Christ. How long did it take King Kong to die, like 20 minutes? Reign yourself in once in a while.

....and really Christopher Lee didn't get a proper death scene?
 
2012-11-24 01:10:30 PM  

GentlemanJ:
Oh, and Gandalf's name was Olorin. The article fails to mention it. It's a piece of crap, too.



6.) Gandalf's original name was "Olórin". He also goes by Tharkun and Mithrandir
 
2012-11-24 01:10:59 PM  

taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


They are metaphorical wings of shadow.

[1] 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.'

The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Which is about one inch up on the page where you got your quote. If the Balrog had real wings, functional or not, the sentence about shadow reaching out "like" two vast wings would make absolutely no sense. Whereas using these metaphorical wings a few sentences later is perfectly legitimate. Would this syntax clarify things?

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings of shadow were spread from wall to wall...'
 
2012-11-24 01:14:05 PM  

Scorpion: GentlemanJ:
Oh, and Gandalf's name was Olorin. The article fails to mention it. It's a piece of crap, too.


6.) Gandalf's original name was "Olórin". He also goes by Tharkun and Mithrandir


Okay, you got me there. My eyes glazed over when I realized the article was about the movies, not the book. The article was still written by someone who read the Cliff's Notes about LotR.
 
2012-11-24 01:46:21 PM  

GentlemanJ: My eyes glazed over when I realized the article was about the movies, not the book.


Glad I wasn't the only one who was annoyed by this. 90% of these are about filmmaking, not Lord of the Rings. It's like the LotR Trivial Pursuit, with one of the categories based on the movies - you only get those right if you've watched the dvd extras a thousand times. Eventually we decided that if someone landed on one of those, they could pick one of the other categories instead.
 
2012-11-24 02:22:49 PM  
Appropriate for this thread (especially the last 10 seconds):
Link
 
2012-11-24 02:24:01 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


By then, the ring was destroyed, Sauron was undone, and the Nazgul were likely in disarray. It'd be much easier for the eagles to get in at that point. Before then, Sauron has his all-seeing eye, and could easily order the Nazgul to take them down.
 
2012-11-24 02:26:18 PM  

Honest Bender: born_yesterday: I'd say the error in storytelling, if any is to be argued at all, was them helping in the Hobbit, not their failure to help in LOTR.

In The Hobbit, the crew is treed by a bunch of wolfs and goblins. I think the only reason the eagles helped was because, "Hey, fark goblins!" That's why they couldn't get them to carry them very far. They had other shiat to do.


What's a fark goblin?
 
2012-11-24 02:26:18 PM  
Tryfan
It was a plot hole, everyone knows it, and no amount of retconning will change it.


Didn't feel like that to me when reading the books.

To me it seemed quite obvious that Sauron or the Witch King would have made them witness the power of his fully operational battlestation upon entering Mordor and then fed his troops on buckets of MFE (Mordor Fried Eagles) for weeks.
 
2012-11-24 02:27:43 PM  

syrynxx: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

They are metaphorical wings of shadow.

[1] 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.'

The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Which is about one inch up on the page where you got your quote. If the Balrog had real wings, functional or not, the sentence about shadow reaching out "like" two vast wings would make absolutely no sense. Whereas using these metaphorical wings a few sentences later is perfectly legitimate. Would this syntax clarify things?

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings of shadow were spread from wall to wall...'


Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. I think we all know that the real question here isn't whether the Balrog had wings... it's whether it had fuzzy slippers.
 
2012-11-24 02:30:14 PM  

msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.


Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.
 
2012-11-24 02:33:29 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


This. Alternatively, you're allowed to substitute the Tim Benzedrine & Dingleberry section from "Bored of the Rings"...
 
2012-11-24 02:38:37 PM  

ObeliskToucher: AppleOptionEsc: It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

This. Alternatively, you're allowed to substitute the Tim Benzedrine & Dingleberry Hashberry section from "Bored of the Rings"...

 
2012-11-24 02:41:25 PM  
Thanks, FB, was just coming in to make that correction...

/time for a re-read, I guess...
 
2012-11-24 02:43:46 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Before then, Sauron has his all-seeing eye, and could easily order the Nazgul to take them down.


Well obviously not all seeing, if the hobbits just walked in.
 
2012-11-24 03:12:13 PM  

Mugato: HeartBurnKid: Before then, Sauron has his all-seeing eye, and could easily order the Nazgul to take them down.

Well obviously not all seeing, if the hobbits just walked in.


Well, not completely all-seeing, but two short farkers in a mountain pass is a hell of a lot more inconspicuous than a flock of giant eagles flying through the air.
 
2012-11-24 03:15:11 PM  
102.) Tom Bombadil was cut because that whole chapter would have slowed the movie down further.
103.) "The Scouring of the Shire" for the same reason. But Saruman's death would have been better.
 
2012-11-24 03:18:27 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.


As good an explanation for why not as any I've heard, thanks.
 
2012-11-24 03:26:54 PM  

Blue_Blazer: NeoCortex42: Blue_Blazer: Interesting analysis. However, how do you account for Bilbo riding the eagles while in possession of the Ring?

Sauron's power was still weak? He was much stronger by the time Frodo was on his trip.

Yeah I'm not sure I buy this whole line of thinking.

To me, the two best explanations are:
Manwe wouldn't let them because it was up to Men to see it done. OR
The Eagles would not have been very secret, and the full might of Sauron could have dealt with them if he saw them coming. It was not until the Ring was destroyed that the eagles save Frodo, when the might of Sauron was thrown down.


In the Hobbit neither the Eagles, the dwarves, Gandalf, or Bilbo knew what the ring was. And among them, the only one who knew the ring existed was Bilbo. The eagles only carried them for a short distance, compared to a multi-day journey which would have been required to mount doom.

Even then, Sauron WAS much weaker in the Hobbit because Gandalf had recently kicked him (the necromancer) out of Mirkwood.
 
2012-11-24 03:28:19 PM  

MooseUpNorth: ZeroCorpse: Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend upon sight, and cause a wizard such as Gandalf to keep a wide berth, then touching the Ringbearer for the amount of time it would take to go from the Shire to Mordor would almost certainly be enough to corrupt the Eagles, thus dooming the mission.

As good an explanation for why not as any I've heard, thanks.


Then what about an Eagle carrying Frodo carrying the Ring? What is Eaglese for "I can't carry the Ring for you, Mr. Frodo. But I can carry you!"
 
2012-11-24 03:35:09 PM  
Dribble, dribble, dribble, fake, dribble, dribble shoot!!

The dread Ballhog has no wings.

Having read Bored of the Rings made me giggle during the movie.

"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!"

No shiat Gandalf, he's a Ballhog!
 
2012-11-24 03:37:19 PM  
Why didn't the ring corrupt the eagle when it carried Bilbo?

Who's to say it didn't, and maybe THAT is why they refused to carry a Ringbearer a second time?

How many stories of the eagles did we really get? Do we know what happened to those specific eagles after the Battle of Five Armies? Are there tales detailing exactly what kind of mood the eagle that bore Bilbo was in after that extremely brief encounter?

The eagles knew all along, and it was nothing they wanted to be involved in. They helped on the few occasions they did when it suited them, and they stayed far away from the ring after that first time. They'd had enough.

And YES, humans around Frodo were all corrupted to varying degrees upon seeing the ring. Boromir actually had it in hand (by the chain) for a moment (just a moment!) and that probably drove him bugnuts with obsession.

I stand by my explanation: Eagles won't go anywhere near that f♥cking ring, and they certainly won't carry the Ringbearer, because they know damn well that it's too risky.

Frodo carried the ring because it was a curse and burden that Hobbits and Hobbits alone could bear for longer than a few moments. Anyone else who even touched it was almost instantly in the power of Dark Lord, and for most races it was tempting and awful (in every sense of the word) to even be close to it.

In other words: BECAUSE MAGIC, STUPID.
 
2012-11-24 03:41:09 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


Relevant to any thread with Tom Bombadil....

art2.server01.sheezyart.com
 
2012-11-24 03:45:31 PM  
Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys, and everyone on one team will always help each other. The Eagles are their own race with their own kingdom, they make decisions based on what will help their own kind, not everyone's. They don't like Sauron, but if Sauron wins the war, they fly somewhere else. There's very little at stake for them (at least in their eyes), so there's no reason to risk their lives.

They help out at the end because that's when they chose to, not because someone suddenly remembered to ask them.
 
2012-11-24 03:46:11 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.



This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.
 
2012-11-24 04:00:11 PM  

Pelvic Splanchnic Ganglion: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Can we just short-circuit this whole thing now?

http://www.xenite.org/special/do-balr ogs-have-wings-do-balrogs-fly/
 
2012-11-24 04:00:43 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


seriously this guy wins, don't ask me what be he definitely wins.
 
2012-11-24 04:02:26 PM  

Hoboclown: Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys, and everyone on one team will always help each other. The Eagles are their own race with their own kingdom, they make decisions based on what will help their own kind, not everyone's. They don't like Sauron, but if Sauron wins the war, they fly somewhere else. There's very little at stake for them (at least in their eyes), so there's no reason to risk their lives.

They help out at the end because that's when they chose to, not because someone suddenly remembered to ask them.


One aspect of Middle Earth that has no equivalent in the real world is different orders of sentient beings, some of which not only have independent gods, but are closer to their gods than other beings.
 
2012-11-24 04:03:44 PM  

Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.


First, I'm going to copy-paste some mileage data from another website, because I'm lazy like that:


Hobbiton to Rivendale 500+ miles
Hobbiton to Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) 1000+ miles
Hobbiton to Grey Havens 150 miles
Rivendale to Durin's Gate (Moria) 150 miles
Durin's Gate to Lothlorien 100 miles (!)
Lorien on Anduin to the falls of Rauros 300 miles
The falls of Rauros to the nearest approaches to Fanghorn 150 miles
The crossing of Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes at least 150 miles
Edoras to Helm's Deep 60 miles Meriadoc, Peregrin
Isengard to Helm's Deep 75 miles
Edoras to Minas Tirith 300 miles
Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil (Morgul) 50 miles
Morannon to Minas Morgul 110+ miles
Minas Tirith to Morannon 160+ miles
Minas Morgul to Barad-dur by way of the Isenmouthe nearly 200 miles
Barad-dur to Orodruin 30-50 miles


Here's how that would have gone down:

* Eagle picks up Frodo in Rivendell to begin the flight of several hundred miles. Eagles travel at about 35 miles per hour, give or take 10 mph, and that's when they're not carrying 50+ pounds of Hobbit and the "unbearable" weight of The One Ring.

* About 1/4 of the way on the journey, the eagle bearing Frodo begins to really feel the weight of The One Ring. He also begins to feel a lust in his heart, and resentment for the wingless creature on his back.

* About 1/2 way to Mordor, they're spotted and Ring Wraiths attack. Assuming there was a whole flock of Eagles to fight them off, and they survive the attack, there's still the problem with the eagles who come near Frodo being altered by the ring's influence.

* About 3/4 through the journey, the eagle bearing Frodo decides that HE deserves the ring, not this stupid little Hobbit. He does a fancy spin in the air, and Frodo drops to the ground. The eagles then all dive for the ring, and begin fighting amongst themselves.

* Middle Earth is f♥cked. The end.
 
2012-11-24 04:19:39 PM  

Funbags: You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.


The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles.
 
2012-11-24 04:35:44 PM  

Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.


One, wasn't there a thing about the Nazgul and their mounts being immune to most weapons?

Two, the eagles might have felt the loss of "a couple, at most" would be unacceptable.
 
2012-11-24 04:36:14 PM  

cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.


Pardon me, but I thought he started writing LOTR in the mid-to-late-thirties. The eagles do help at the end.
And then the eagles did make movies about how awesome they are and how they won the whole war singlehandedly.

/American war movies almost always piss me off. Especially the one where they singlehandedly capture an enigma machine. Or the one where Mel Gibson and his plucky and totally not racist (because there was a black guy) friends defeat the demonic British.
 
2012-11-24 04:38:33 PM  

syrynxx: Then what about an Eagle carrying Frodo carrying the Ring? What is Eaglese for "I can't carry the Ring for you, Mr. Frodo. But I can carry you!"


In Eaglese, it's "the key word here is 'touching the ringbearer', not 'touching the ring'. Learn to read, dumbass." My Eaglese is a bit rusty, though, so I might be getting a nuance or two slightly wrong.
 
2012-11-24 04:52:02 PM  

NeoCortex42: thrasherrr: NeoCortex42: farkeruk: Lord Of The Rings is the sixth-highest grossing franchise ever, behind Harry Potter, James Bond, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean and Shrek.

I don't buy it. I know those 3 Star Wars films were big in the 70s and 80s, but surely inflation must have put them behind LOTR?

Not just that, but Shrek? Really? I guess it got a lot of ticket sales since it's a children's movie, but that still seems ridiculous.

Shrek has five films in its franchise, and it has more adult content that you apparently know about.

/kids aren't going to get John Woo references, see the third meaning behind the 'ogres are like onions' dialog, or notice delicate subversion of traditional characters into real-world caricatures

Kids wouldn't get a lot of the references in the My Little Ponies show. Doesn't mean it's not a kids show.
The adult stuff is there just to make it bearable for the parents.


That could be true if Shrek weren't deliberately made for adults, over the objections of some of the producers. Nearly the entire first Shrek film is made of disguised 'adult stuff.'
 
2012-11-24 04:57:18 PM  
There are plenty of good reasons why the eagles didn't just fly them to Mount Doom. The larger difficulty is why no one at the Council brought it up.
 
2012-11-24 05:07:45 PM  

Modguy: Eh. Sauron turned him self in to Manwe's Herald at the end of the first age, and had a change of heart and ran like hell. Keep in mind that at the time, Sauron was still VERY good at deception, and changed his will and outward nature enough that he could have reasonably posed as a good Maia that did not wish to return to Valinor, and I believe masqueraded as a Maia of Aule to the elves/dwarves/men. It wasn't until the Fall of Numenor, when he was destroyed and essentially stuck in his horrid form was he truly exposed to all.


Another point: Sauron saw the size of the their army and immediately humbled himself before the Numenoreans when they returned to Middle Earth in the Second Age. This indicates that he was not anywhere close to Melkor/Morgoth's power. The Valar had good reason to neglect Sauron, the Balrog, and the remaining Dragons. All of them were well within the ability of Men, Elves, and Dwarves to handle.

Of course, after Sauron got taken off to Numenor as a prisoner, the Valar apparently realized the folly of that idea and sent the Istari to lend a hand.
 
2012-11-24 05:08:44 PM  

MadSkillz: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Pardon me, but I thought he started writing LOTR in the mid-to-late-thirties. The eagles do help at the end.
And then the eagles did make movies about how awesome they are and how they won the whole war singlehandedly.

/American war movies almost always piss me off. Especially the one where they singlehandedly capture an enigma machine. Or the one where Mel Gibson and his plucky and totally not racist (because there was a black guy) friends defeat the demonic British.


Not sure why all the folks arguing about the supposed allegory haven't mentioned "Beowulf, the Monsters, and the Critics" yet. Link
 
2012-11-24 05:17:34 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.


Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.
 
2012-11-24 05:19:09 PM  

teto85: But Saruman's death would have been better.


Well my point is that they actually filmed it and put it on the cutting room floor.
 
2012-11-24 05:32:42 PM  

Wenchmaster: Modguy: Eh. Sauron turned him self in to Manwe's Herald at the end of the first age, and had a change of heart and ran like hell. Keep in mind that at the time, Sauron was still VERY good at deception, and changed his will and outward nature enough that he could have reasonably posed as a good Maia that did not wish to return to Valinor, and I believe masqueraded as a Maia of Aule to the elves/dwarves/men. It wasn't until the Fall of Numenor, when he was destroyed and essentially stuck in his horrid form was he truly exposed to all.

Another point: Sauron saw the size of the their army and immediately humbled himself before the Numenoreans when they returned to Middle Earth in the Second Age. This indicates that he was not anywhere close to Melkor/Morgoth's power. The Valar had good reason to neglect Sauron, the Balrog, and the remaining Dragons. All of them were well within the ability of Men, Elves, and Dwarves to handle.

Of course, after Sauron got taken off to Numenor as a prisoner, the Valar apparently realized the folly of that idea and sent the Istari to lend a hand.


Not quite, your timings a bit off. The Istari didn't go until the middle of the 3rd Age, while Sauron went to Numenor at the end of the 2nd Age. And even his surrender there was tactical...he knew that force of might would destroy his armies, so he allowed himself to be taken prisoner. But it wasn't long before he was the real power in Numenor, and set the policy of invading Valinor itself. And even in that invasion Manwe himself realized that there was a good chance of the Valar losing, which would basically leave Sauron as the only Power left in the world, which is why he and the rest of the Valar called on Eru to take over for a little while, with the result of the World itself being reformed.

What Sauron did, uniquely amoung all of the Tolkein gods, was bind his power to a physical form...that's what allowed him to 'die' at the end of LotR. Morgoth was never 'killed', he was banished outside of the physical world, but remains a sentient, existing, 'real' thing outside the Walls. It's arguable that Saruman wasn't 'killed', but rather banished from the West, and doomed to wander as a powerless spirit. The Balrogs are a more difficult case, but Tolkein himself doesn't really seem to have known what to do with them.
 
2012-11-24 05:39:32 PM  
NeoCortex42
Funbags:
You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles


And even then it took them several days until they agreed to do something about it.
That was one of the things I didn't like in the second movie; the Ents weren't really Ent-ish:

Treebeard: "Sorry, I don't care. Now get lost, I'll bring you to the door."
Hobbit: "Look over there, Treebeard!"
Treebeard: "Da fugg? I had no idea. Saruman, you orcf*cker. HURRRR FANGORN SMASH"
 
2012-11-24 05:42:21 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


I giggled at your dialogue. Lolz Switzerland.

Tom I figured was just so flipping old that he's senile, but he's also part of the place he lives- neutral- like nature. Sure it's not nice to fool Mother Nature, but she's mostly neutral. Everything wants to survive- there's no morality in nature.
So he can bend the 3-d fabric of his reality in magical ways, but does not care to think of applying it in ways of power. Why? Who knows? I always figured he became enamored of the place he lives.

/named my dog Goldberry. I miss her. I have my Chessie named Galadriel now. Had a dog named Frodo. Had to have my 13 yr. old terrier Bilbo put down, and then went to see the Fellowship again to console myself.
Why did I type all that? Dunno but there it is.
 
2012-11-24 05:45:30 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.

First, I'm going to copy-paste some mileage data from another website, because I'm lazy like that:


Hobbiton to Rivendale 500+ miles
Hobbiton to Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) 1000+ miles
Hobbiton to Grey Havens 150 miles
Rivendale to Durin's Gate (Moria) 150 miles
Durin's Gate to Lothlorien 100 miles (!)
Lorien on Anduin to the falls of Rauros 300 miles
The falls of Rauros to the nearest approaches to Fanghorn 150 miles
The crossing of Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes at least 150 miles
Edoras to Helm's Deep 60 miles Meriadoc, Peregrin
Isengard to Helm's Deep 75 miles
Edoras to Minas Tirith 300 miles
Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil (Morgul) 50 miles
Morannon to Minas Morgul 110+ miles
Minas Tirith to Morannon 160+ miles
Minas Morgul to Barad-dur by way of the Isenmouthe nearly 200 miles
Barad-dur to Orodruin 30-50 miles


Here's how that would have gone down: ...


There are numerous ridiculous assumptions with your take.

I'll begin with you pulling 35 MPH directly out of your ass. These aren't bald eagles as found on Earth, these are Great Eagles; giant, sentient, sapient, unlike any bird found on Earth. Please cite ANY Middle Earth source on the speed of Great Eagles can fly (laden or unladen), then get back to me.

Actually, never mind, let's just assume Great Eagles can only fly a max of 35 MPH. That means in order for them to arrive on time to save Frodo and Sam from the destruction of Mount Doom, they would have had to begin their ~3500 mile flight 4 days in advance (3500 miles / 35 miles per hour = 100 hours / 24 hours in a day = ~4 days)

Four days. Without resting. Frodo & Co wouldn't even have reached Mordor by the time the Great Eagles were persuaded to depart to oick them up at Mount Doom.

Also, its evident that the "burden" of the ring doesn't not manifest in actual increased weight/mass, only its bearer's perception. Otherwise, you claim that Frodo started to notice the ring's "weight" around his neck at the 1/4 mark, how much did it weigh when he was right at the doorstep of Mt Doom? A thousand pounds? Two thousand? How convenient that a weak/malnourished/exhausted hobbit not only had the strength to stand upright, and to fight Gollum at the end, but that an equally weak/malnourished/exhausted hobbit had the strength to carry that hobbit up to Mt Doom's ledge. According to you, Samwise must basically be as strong as the Hulk.

Also, since you overlooked it in the post you replied to, I proposed that a "shock troop" of a few hundred Great Eagles would clear the path through the air to Mount Doom, slaughtering the 9 Nazgul reliant on their fell-beasts, with very minimal casualties.

With the Nazgul defeated, Sauron would be defenseless against air attacks, and a 2nd wave of Eagles carrying Frodo would waltz on in. Frodo would be much further from Mount Doom's influence than he was on the ground at the very end. He'd still be in control, and he'd be eager to deposit his burden from the air. All while the Eye watched, and not even a billion orcs could intercede.

Again, its a 40 page novel where good guys spend more time ridiculing Sauron that actually being worried about the useless army he is massing.
 
2012-11-24 05:48:22 PM  

NeoCortex42: Funbags: You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The Ents didn't even give a shiat until they saw what Saruman was doing to the forest. As long as it was only other species being affected, they were content to hang around and chat. And the Ents wouldn't have been able to relocate nearly as easily as the Eagles.


The Ents realized the contempt Saruman's army had for not just trees, but nature itself. The Eagle were at least, if not more intelligent that the Ents, and would have realized that even they have to land, eventually.
 
2012-11-24 05:49:48 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Zombalupagus: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.

I vote for non-functional wings.


As God is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly.
 
2012-11-24 05:52:06 PM  

Alphax: ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...

In the end, even Frodo would not willingly part with the Ring, and if it were not for Gollum, he would have failed.

(though the movie did mess around with WHY Gollum fell in.. they cut the part near the end where Gollum tries for the Ring, and Frodo grabs it and orders Gollum not to touch him ever again, else he will be cast into the fire himself)


Exactly. If the eagles had flown Frodo to Mt Doom, he would have refused to destroy it. It was much too powerful to ever let someone destroy it.
 
2012-11-24 05:53:23 PM  

LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.


Actually, Ugluk was a decent Orc: he led his troops well, was disciplined enough to not get distracted by Merry and Pippin's attempted escape, and was given the honor of Eomer dismounting to fight him hand to hand. He died, of course, but died fighting, not running. All in all, pretty admirable.
 
2012-11-24 05:55:37 PM  

Funbags: Also, since you overlooked it in the post you replied to, I proposed that a "shock troop" of a few hundred Great Eagles would clear the path through the air to Mount Doom, slaughtering the 9 Nazgul reliant on their fell-beasts, with very minimal casualties.

With the Nazgul defeated, Sauron would be defenseless against air attacks, and a 2nd wave of Eagles carrying Frodo would waltz on in. Frodo would be much further from Mount Doom's influence than he was on the ground at the very end. He'd still be in control, and he'd be eager to deposit his burden from the air. All while the Eye watched, and not even a billion orcs could intercede.

Again, its a 40 page novel where good guys spend more time ridiculing Sauron that actually being worried about the useless army he is massing.


You should have told Olorin about your great plan, General. It's all your fault the Walkers had to trudge all the way across Middle Earth.
 
2012-11-24 05:59:54 PM  

Son of Thunder: Women who lusted after Sean Bean in set were called "Beanstalkers"

I'd have thought they'd be called "deathstalkers", since that's what Sean Bean does best.


content6.flixster.com

Oh hai guyz what's going on in this thread?
 
2012-11-24 06:04:19 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Funbags: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.


This is where I SRTFA. There were exactly 9 Nazgul. Not ten, nine. Against probably several hundred Great Eagles at least.

The Witch-King could kill a couple, at most, but the rest combined would have been lucky to kill even one before their fell-beasts were torn into tiny shreds. Then Frodo & Co are carried into Mordor laughing contentedly while the Eye of Sauron, having nothing else that can fly, watches completely helpless as the True Ring is casually dumped into Mount Doom's fiery depths.

You know who cared even less for the affairs of men? Ents. But when they realized the threat posed by Sauron (and Saruman) to all of Middle-Earths inhabitants, they acted.

The reason the Eagles didn't help is because it would have been a 40 page book and a 10 minute movie, not because Eagles were apathetic to their own interests.

One, wasn't there a thing about the Nazgul and their mounts being immune to most weapons?

Two, the eagles might have felt the loss of "a couple, at most" would be unacceptable.


Incorrect. The Witch-King could not be harmed by mortal men, but mortal women (and hobbits) could (and did) fark him up properly. AFAIK, this protection didn't apply to the other Nazgul, but let's pretend it did, since it still wouldn't matter.

The Great Eagles were far more complex than mortal men, and even then, they merely had to kill the flying fell-beasts the immortal Nazgul used as mounts. The fell-beasts were clearly able to be farked up my mortal men, so hundreds of attacking Great Eagles would have turned them into meat pinatas.
 
2012-11-24 06:21:50 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.


Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.
 
2012-11-24 06:48:25 PM  
It's also possible Gandalf knew (because some Valar or Eru or someone told him) that the only way to destroy the Ring was to give it to Frodo. He had some inkling that Gollum would play a role, after all.

Remember, they all decided that Frodo would take the Ring. Not Aragorn or someone else better qualified. Even if the Eagles could be convinced to help, they almost certainly would have taken it for themselves, sort of like how Galadriel would have done things. Kind of like what led to the Fall of Numenor. They would have taken over Middle Earth in the name of Sauron, and then they would have assaulted Valinor. End of the world.

You can't trust the Ring with anyone powerful. Hobbits were special because they were weak and innocent, and even they only won because of shenanigans with Gollum (the best character in all of fantasy literature).
 
2012-11-24 06:59:29 PM  
Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Interesting read.

I think the author missed on one thing tho - he describes Bombadils' lands as a kind of a void.

Morgoth was cast into the void

Tom Bombadil *is* Morgoth

/dumdumDUM!
 
2012-11-24 07:09:28 PM  
The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)
 
2012-11-24 07:40:34 PM  

give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.


Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.
 
2012-11-24 07:58:00 PM  
On second thought, Bombadil is too old to be a barrow wight.

I still think Goldberry might be a dryad, though.
 
2012-11-24 07:59:08 PM  

NetOwl: give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.


I thought the explanation was that Tom was himself a being of the ancient world and while he could resist the ring he could only do so on his land. IIRC Gandalf explained at the Council of Elrond that even if they gave the ring to Tom it wouldn't mean a thing since Sauron could still conquer Middle Earth through sheer force of arms.
 
2012-11-24 08:06:44 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.


ZeroCorpse: Re: The Eagles. Why couldn't they carry Frodo and Sam into Mordor?

Do you remember at the beginning when Gandalf was interacting with Biblo and Frodo in regards to the One Ring? How he wouldn't touch it? How he wouldn't even let them get near him with it because the ring's terrible power is known to have way more influence over every other race than it seems to have with hobbits? Gandalf made Bilbo drop the ring on the floor. He would not touch it. He would not go near it. Later, he made Frodo hold out his hand and read the writing. The closest Gandalf would get was to snag it with tongs, and even then he dropped it like it was burning him.

The same goes for Galadriel. She would not have the ring in her hands, either. She told Frodo exactly what would happen if she did lay hands on it.

Elrond wouldn't touch it. He knew better, too. He wouldn't even go near it.

Do you remember the history lesson? Humans are basically corrupted simply by being within shouting distance of the ring. Boromir went homicidal just being in the same company with Frodo for a few weeks. Isildur went over the deep end as soon as he touched it.

So why won't the Eagles carry Frodo while he bears the One Ring? Because the One Ring has such a great and terrible power over all races, save for hobbits (and even they succumb, eventually), that it's very likely they would be affected and end up either keeping it for themselves, or dropping Frodo to watch him die, and then retrieving it to do its bidding.

The Eagles didn't carry the ringbearer because they knew better than to be that close to that particular object. It would have overpowered them and it would never have been disposed of.

Tolkien doesn't come out and say this, but I think it's pretty well implied by the foreshadowing and lore attributed to the ring. If it could turn a man to an evil being in a split second from touch, make him attempt to murder his friends after just being near it for a week, make a hobbit murder his best friend ...


I came here to say this. Thanks for saving me the bother.
 
2012-11-24 08:19:17 PM  
1 thing I still don't know, what was Durthang supposed to defend?
 
2012-11-24 08:22:13 PM  
When I first got online, I went looking for the Tolkien newsgroup. I didn't expect to find them waging the War of the (Balrog) Wings.
 
2012-11-24 08:23:19 PM  
100 also doubles as "wow, I forgot how beautiful Liv Tyler can be"
 
2012-11-24 08:27:41 PM  

Flappyhead: NetOwl: give me doughnuts: AppleOptionEsc: msupf: And all the discussion of who would get corrupted and how quickly just reminds me how disappointing it was that they cut Tom bombadil out of the story.

He considered the ring a trinket and a trifle thing.

Frodo: Can't anyone else take this shiat?
Tom: I can
Frodo, sweet, here it is
Tom: LOLZ SWITZERLAND. Now go away.

It's great and all that he is an unstoppable juggernaut, but he just comes off as a dick. It's best not to introduce a Dues Ex device, then have him say no because "he prefers to stay home and have sex with his hot wife". I skip those 2 chapters everytime I read that book. It's like the birth of the filler episode.

Tom Bombadil was an older evil than Sauron and his rings.

Bombadil couldn't leave his home because Goldberry was a dryad, so she would die if she left her tree, and he didn't want to think what would happen to her if he left her alone for too long.

Alternate theory: Bombadil couldn't leave because he was actually one of the barrow wights.

He had incentive to help; a Sauron victory would have led to his downfall, eventually.

I thought the explanation was that Tom was himself a being of the ancient world and while he could resist the ring he could only do so on his land. IIRC Gandalf explained at the Council of Elrond that even if they gave the ring to Tom it wouldn't mean a thing since Sauron could still conquer Middle Earth through sheer force of arms.


It's not that he could only resist the ring on his land, he could resist it anywhere. The problem is that the ring would have so little influence over him (none) that he wouldn't consider it dangerous and wouldn't take proper care of it long term. So eventually Sauron would find it and regain it. The only real long term solution was to destroy the ring.
 
2012-11-24 08:48:59 PM  

FloydA:
103: The eagles were not able to fly everyone to Mount Doom because Henley was touring with his solo band at the time.
i>

I ROFL'd mightily.

 
2012-11-24 09:05:49 PM  

LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.


In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.
 
2012-11-24 09:18:34 PM  

Nemo's Brother: LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.

In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.


Where was it written that only Elves were seen on the alliance side? Were there evil Ents and Eagles that fought for Sauron. Nope, the orcs all fought for Sauron or Saruman.
 
2012-11-24 09:35:36 PM  

Fano: The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)


Its not that no one thought of it before. It's what inspired this director. It doesn't have to be the first to be inspiring.
 
2012-11-24 09:52:56 PM  

kim jong-un: Fano: The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)

Its not that no one thought of it before. It's what inspired this director. It doesn't have to be the first to be inspiring.


Being that there wasn't a credit smash with the Ring encircling Frodo, I would have just figured that it is the most logical way to tell the backstory, in short form no need to claim James Bond as inspiration. I mean, MAYBE it did. But how to set up Sauron as a menace without an old battle scene? (I'll still grant the Bakshi version had a very reserved and simplified version of the war against Sauron.)
 
2012-11-24 10:01:47 PM  
The power of the One Ring had over races was related to the members of those races using the Rings of Power. The Hobbits didn't have a ring of power and neither did the eagles so I'm not sure about the argument about them becoming corrupt. Of course the is also the link between the riders and their horses which also comes from the power of the One Ring.

/One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them,
/One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
/In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
//I need a new ring
 
2012-11-24 11:27:05 PM  

Zombalupagus [TotalFark]
2012-11-24 11:27:15 AM

taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.




"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys Balrogs could fly!
 
2012-11-24 11:33:15 PM  

Fano: kim jong-un: Fano: The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)

Its not that no one thought of it before. It's what inspired this director. It doesn't have to be the first to be inspiring.

Being that there wasn't a credit smash with the Ring encircling Frodo, I would have just figured that it is the most logical way to tell the backstory, in short form no need to claim James Bond as inspiration. I mean, MAYBE it did. But how to set up Sauron as a menace without an old battle scene? (I'll still grant the Bakshi version had a very reserved and simplified version of the war against Sauron.)


Not sure what you are arguing about.
 
2012-11-24 11:35:08 PM  
Really though, no reason why they cut out what happened to Sauroman? He was kind of an important character.
 
2012-11-24 11:37:10 PM  

Mugato: The Special Editions, in total, are 158 minutes longer than the Theatrical releases (718 minutes to 560 minutes).

Jesus Christ, Jackson, hire a farking editor. I'm available.

Yes, Jackson is a hugely successful filmmaker and I'm an editor and FX guy but Christ. How long did it take King Kong to die, like 20 minutes? Reign yourself in once in a while.

....and really Christopher Lee didn't get a proper death scene?


The most unforgiveable part about Jackson's "King Kong" is that he had Fay Wray, at age 96, ready to come and film the final scene- she was going to say, "'Twas beauty killed the beast," and he didn't get around to filming it in time, and she died. When you have a 96 year old ready to do a cameo in a film, the first farking thing you film is the 96 year old, not jerk around with 45 minutes of dinosaurs running after people or giant penile vaginae dentate (?) eating people.

Also, is it just me, or did Andy Serkis play the cook character as Popeye, the way he talked?
 
2012-11-24 11:43:06 PM  

Straelbora: Mugato: The Special Editions, in total, are 158 minutes longer than the Theatrical releases (718 minutes to 560 minutes).

Jesus Christ, Jackson, hire a farking editor. I'm available.

Yes, Jackson is a hugely successful filmmaker and I'm an editor and FX guy but Christ. How long did it take King Kong to die, like 20 minutes? Reign yourself in once in a while.

....and really Christopher Lee didn't get a proper death scene?

The most unforgiveable part about Jackson's "King Kong" is that he had Fay Wray, at age 96, ready to come and film the final scene- she was going to say, "'Twas beauty killed the beast," and he didn't get around to filming it in time, and she died. When you have a 96 year old ready to do a cameo in a film, the first farking thing you film is the 96 year old, not jerk around with 45 minutes of dinosaurs running after people or giant penile vaginae dentate (?) eating people.

Also, is it just me, or did Andy Serkis play the cook character as Popeye, the way he talked?


unforgiveable? wow, get a life
 
2012-11-24 11:52:11 PM  

Fano: Nemo's Brother: LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse: I guess I should clarify: it wasn't a Hobbit that murdered his best friend upon seeing the Ring. It was one of the Stoorish Hobbits, who were almost-but-not-quite Hobbits as they are in Frodo's era. So while Frodo was able to resist (as was Bilbo and Sam) for much of the time they had the ring, Smeagol and Deagol could not. The latter two reacted to it as if they were Men.

So as I understand it:

Men: Contact equals instant corruption. Proximity equals corruption within a short time frame.
Elves: Contact equals eventual corruption, though not sure how long it would take. Proximity takes much longer.
Wizards: Contact equals eventual corruption. Proximity takes longer.
Orcs: Unknown, but considering they're already evil it's probably pretty quick, I'd assume.
Hobbits: Contact equals corruption, though it takes a long time. Proximity takes decades.
Dwarves: Contact equals corruption, though we know not how long it takes. Proximity seems to take a very long time.
Eagles: Unknown, but we can assume they're more susceptible than Hobbits.

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.

In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.

Where was it written that only Elves were seen on the alliance side? Were there evil Ents and Eagles that fought for Sauron. Nope, the orcs all fought for Sauron or Saruman.


Don't quote me on this, but I believe that Treebeard mentioned that some Ents were less than trustworthy.
 
2012-11-24 11:55:16 PM  

kim jong-un: Fano: kim jong-un: Fano: The idea of having a battle scene in the Prologue to Fellowship was inspired by the tradition of a James Bond pre-credits action scene.

Yeah, no one ever thought of that before. (Granted, it's only in shadow)

Its not that no one thought of it before. It's what inspired this director. It doesn't have to be the first to be inspiring.

Being that there wasn't a credit smash with the Ring encircling Frodo, I would have just figured that it is the most logical way to tell the backstory, in short form no need to claim James Bond as inspiration. I mean, MAYBE it did. But how to set up Sauron as a menace without an old battle scene? (I'll still grant the Bakshi version had a very reserved and simplified version of the war against Sauron.)

Not sure what you are arguing about.


I'm saying that the inspiration would have come straight from the book and original movie. Saying "I came up with the idea of having the prior battles filmed comes from James Bond" may be true but doesn't make much sense, given that every person so far that tried to commit it to film did the same thing.

"I had the inspiration from [x] to do things the same way everyone else did."
 
2012-11-24 11:59:41 PM  

drewsclues: Straelbora: Mugato: The Special Editions, in total, are 158 minutes longer than the Theatrical releases (718 minutes to 560 minutes).

Jesus Christ, Jackson, hire a farking editor. I'm available.

Yes, Jackson is a hugely successful filmmaker and I'm an editor and FX guy but Christ. How long did it take King Kong to die, like 20 minutes? Reign yourself in once in a while.

....and really Christopher Lee didn't get a proper death scene?

The most unforgiveable part about Jackson's "King Kong" is that he had Fay Wray, at age 96, ready to come and film the final scene- she was going to say, "'Twas beauty killed the beast," and he didn't get around to filming it in time, and she died. When you have a 96 year old ready to do a cameo in a film, the first farking thing you film is the 96 year old, not jerk around with 45 minutes of dinosaurs running after people or giant penile vaginae dentate (?) eating people.

Also, is it just me, or did Andy Serkis play the cook character as Popeye, the way he talked?

unforgiveable? wow, get a life


img.youtube.com
 
2012-11-25 01:52:00 AM  
Oh goddamn that stupid plot hole:

listen: I love the How It Should Have Ended clips as much as the next guy, but you can't possibly believe that Eagles, with their predilection for shiny things, would do anything with the One Ring other than keep it for themselves, and then you got a bigger problem on your hands, especially when the first movie SPENT A WHOLE HOUR EXPLAINING HOW THE RING IS AN EVIL INFLUENCE OF CORRUPTION.

Did you not pay attention to that part? The part where the ring corrupts its wearer? And that only the jolly, loveable hobbits -- the only creatures who don't desire power or wealth or conquest -- could be trusted with its safekeeping? ...because that was kind of the whole point of the big epic: Getting rid of something so evil it will devour you if you try.
 
2012-11-25 02:18:55 AM  

Fubini: scotzrewl: cowboybebop: The Eagles didn't help, I hypothesize, because they represented America who, in Tolkein's opinion, didn't get involved in WWII until well after they should have.

Tolkien hated allegory, so no.

My understanding wasn't that he hated allegory, but he hated the thought of the author dictating how the work should be interpreted. In my mind, the books are at least influenced by his life (WWI, WWII, and Christianity in particular), if not allegorical to him. I don't even think it's necessarily a conscious allegory, but it was an aspect of his experience that worked it's way into the books.

The idea of the eagles as Americans is a little too specific for this view, but I think the broad strokes are there.


Maybe so....

I don't think this is what Tolkien had in mind, but I've always thought of the Elves and elder races like the old European powers. The elves set up this nice orderly system and showed Sauron the secrets of ring making. It all went bad and they fought a bit, but finally got tired of it. They then handed over the mess they made of things to the younger races basically saying "Yeah, we pretty much boned the world through our hubris, but meh. If you succeed, we'll be here to let you thank us for for our years of wisdom. If you fail, and all of Middle Earth goes to run, well, we'll just farking pack it in and talk about how weak you younger races are. Either way, we're good".

It put me in the mind of the post colonial world. Europe fought each other for centuries over their colonial territories. Then, when Empire became too burdensome, they carved up borders convenient to European powers, with little regard to historical boundries, and left everyone else to sort out the mess. Sure they'll step in when their old territories have some high profile problem, but in then, they may send a token force and some advisers. Either way, they are tired of it and can just go home and not worry about it.
 
2012-11-25 02:35:19 AM  
The situation with the eagles is stupendously obvious if you read the books and have a brain. If not then who cares what you think?

The scouring of the shire would have been a very very long addition to an already long series, but it is painfully missed in the story arc.

Bombadil however would have been a disastrously incomprehensible pile of nonsense to most audiences. There is simply no damned way it could be incorporated sensibly into a mass-market movie.
 
2012-11-25 10:18:25 AM  

LoneWolf343: Fano: Nemo's Brother: LoneWolf343: ZeroCorpse:

Another thing people don't realize is that Tolkien didn't intent that Orcs were to be always evil, and regretted not ever having a "hero" Orc.

In the great war against Sauron it was written that only Elves were not seen on both sides of the battlefield. That means some orcs did fight with the alliance and presumably valiantly.

Where was it written that only Elves were seen on the alliance side? Were there evil Ents and Eagles that fought for Sauron. Nope, the orcs all fought for Sauron or Saruman.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that Treebeard mentioned that some Ents were less than trustworthy.



Those damned Pine bastards.
 
2012-11-25 02:25:17 PM  

NetOwl: On second thought, Bombadil is too old to be a barrow wight.

I still think Goldberry might be a dryad, though.


Correct about Bombadill. The Barrow Wights came from those who died during the overthrow of old Arnor, the realm ruled by Aragorn's ancestor, Anarion. They were defeated by the forces of the Witch King of Angmar - who then became the chief of the Nazgul.

I tend to think of Goldberry and Bombadill as the ultimate Spirits of Nature. Capricious, untamed, at once both benevolent and uncaring, new and ancient, with great power greatly limited. Only Illuvitar truly knows who and what they are...
 
2012-11-25 03:13:34 PM  

Son of Thunder: Honest Bender: born_yesterday: I'd say the error in storytelling, if any is to be argued at all, was them helping in the Hobbit, not their failure to help in LOTR.

In The Hobbit, the crew is treed by a bunch of wolfs and goblins. I think the only reason the eagles helped was because, "Hey, fark goblins!" That's why they couldn't get them to carry them very far. They had other shiat to do.

What's a fark goblin?


Anyone that's two tabs to the right.

/Fark, where even the trolls are goblins.
 
2012-11-25 04:41:09 PM  
Peter Jackson was going to have Sauron be personally at the Battle of the Dark Gate at the end of RotK in his Maia form.

img236.exs.cx

He realized it didn't make sense, since Sauron couldn't take his original form, and the troll was put in his place.
 
2012-11-25 04:45:06 PM  

stevetherobot: ZeroCorpse: Zombalupagus: taurusowner: Metaluna Mutant: Roto-Rot: How Not To Get Laid 101:

Fierce debate rages over whether Balrogs have wings.

Well there's no real debate because THEY DON'T HAVE WINGS. THE END.

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...'
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Wings or no wings, it falls to its death either way.

I vote for non-functional wings.

As God is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly.


Balrogs had wing structures, but no membranes. They were for show and intimidation, not for flight.

There, argument settled.
 
2012-11-25 05:27:14 PM  

Benni K Rok: Jim_Callahan: The reason the eagles don't just fly everyone to Mount Doom because "the eagles are their own race and do things for their own reasons". Also, Tolkien didn't like them to be seen as "Middle-Earth taxis"...


...Also, the Nazgul would have totally killed them.

There were, what, about half the Nazgul left when they went in and out with no trouble, so no dice there. And Tolkien saying "'cause I didn't wanna" isn't the same as an actual explanation and does nothing whatsoever to close the plot-hole.

They only owed ONE favor, and each taxi direction is a favor?


Sorry but there were NO Nazgul left when the eagles entered Mordor to rescue Frodo and Sam. When the One Ring was destroyed so were the remaining 8 Nazgul. The Nazgul are not the winged creatures but the ring enslaved human spirits that ride them AKA the black riders.
 
2012-11-25 10:47:34 PM  
Forget the eagles;l they should have just used a catapult. Of course, with an object that small they'd need some sort of targetting system.
 
2012-11-25 10:50:50 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Forget the eagles;l they should have just used a catapult. Of course, with an object that small they'd need some sort of targetting system.


*snrk* I remember those gifs.
 
2012-11-26 06:40:30 AM  

Hoboclown: Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys


Probably because it's such a bad offender in that aspect. Never is it explained why orcs are outcasts. They're pretty easy to sympathize with. Sauron is sooooooo evil, even his language is evil. Him and his ilk just do evil all the live-long day. Like what? Wanting to be in charge? If that's evil, lock me up.
 
kab
2012-11-26 09:18:31 AM  

moothemagiccow: Sauron is sooooooo evil, even his language is evil. Him and his ilk just do evil all the live-long day. Like what? Wanting to be in charge? If that's evil, lock me up.


Like (among other things) wanting to wipe out the race of man, perhaps?
 
2012-11-26 10:09:02 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hoboclown: Everyone forgets that Middle-Earth isn't just good guys and bad guys

Probably because it's such a bad offender in that aspect. Never is it explained why orcs are outcasts. They're pretty easy to sympathize with. Sauron is sooooooo evil, even his language is evil. Him and his ilk just do evil all the live-long day. Like what? Wanting to be in charge? If that's evil, lock me up.


How about torturing and killing anyone who gets in his way?
 
2012-11-26 03:21:02 PM  
To me the biggest annoyance of LOTR was the fact that Gandalf, a wizard, restricts his magic use to making a staff & stone flashlight.
 
2012-11-26 05:27:08 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Balrogs had wing structures, but no membranes. They were for show and intimidation, not for flight.

There, argument settled.


No, Syrnyxx covered this already.

syrynxx: They are metaphorical wings of shadow.

[1] 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.'

The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Which is about one inch up on the page where you got your quote. If the Balrog had real wings, functional or not, the sentence about shadow reaching out "like" two vast wings would make absolutely no sense. Whereas using these metaphorical wings a few sentences later is perfectly legitimate. Would this syntax clarify things?

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings of shadow were spread from wall to wall...'

 

If you really want to get nit-picky about this sort of thing google "Tolkein Professor" + "Do Balrogs have wings" and you'll get the most exhaustive reasoning for why they don't by somebody that knows way more about Tolkein than anybody in this thread.
 
2012-11-27 03:27:58 PM  

Night Night Cream Puff: Keizer_Ghidorah: Balrogs had wing structures, but no membranes. They were for show and intimidation, not for flight.

There, argument settled.

No, Syrnyxx covered this already.

syrynxx: They are metaphorical wings of shadow.

[1] 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.'

The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Which is about one inch up on the page where you got your quote. If the Balrog had real wings, functional or not, the sentence about shadow reaching out "like" two vast wings would make absolutely no sense. Whereas using these metaphorical wings a few sentences later is perfectly legitimate. Would this syntax clarify things?

'...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings of shadow were spread from wall to wall...' 

If you really want to get nit-picky about this sort of thing google "Tolkein Professor" + "Do Balrogs have wings" and you'll get the most exhaustive reasoning for why they don't by somebody that knows way more about Tolkein than anybody in this thread.


Eh, I think it looked better with the wing structures and the shadows flowing from them like the membranes, very spooky and menacing. It was definitely a lot better than the Ralph Bakshi Balrog.

periannath.com

And this bastard actually did fly, then forgot he could when Gandalf crumbled the bridge.
 
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