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(Abc.net.au)   Sweden's largest toy chain says its toys are "gender neutral", picturing boys holding baby dolls and girls brandishing toy guns. Not that there's anything wrong with that   (abc.net.au) divider line 122
    More: Silly, Sweden, toy gun, gender neutral, baby chicks, Toys R Us, toys, opera singers, boys holding  
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3947 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Nov 2012 at 9:11 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 09:20:43 AM  
That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

Everybody panic!
 
2012-11-24 09:31:53 AM  
if Sweden didn't have well-endowed, leggy blondes, it would be recognized to be just a cog in the German supply chain.
 
2012-11-24 10:16:02 AM  
so... real dolls and fake penises?
 
2012-11-24 10:30:19 AM  
Working link

From TFA: A comparison between this year's Toys R Us catalogues in Sweden and Denmark, where Top Toy is also the franchisee, showed that a boy wielding a toy machine gun in the Danish edition had been replaced by a girl in Sweden.

Elsewhere, a girl was photoshopped out of the Hello Kitty page, a girl holding a baby doll was replaced by a boy, and, in sister chain BR's catalogue, a young girl's pink T-shirt was turned light blue.


mlkshk.com
 
2012-11-24 11:03:36 AM  
That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.
 
2012-11-24 11:07:16 AM  
It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.
 
2012-11-24 11:09:01 AM  

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.
 
2012-11-24 11:11:04 AM  

RandomAxe: That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.


Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well
 
2012-11-24 11:12:04 AM  
Why does anyone care?

My mom dressed me as a girl when I was very young; look how I turned out!

Wait.....maybe I'm not the best example
 
2012-11-24 11:12:40 AM  

Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.


Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.
 
2012-11-24 11:15:42 AM  

Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.


Yeah, because people today have real hard time right understanding they can do anything they want, don't they Ru Paul.

Just another solution lacking a real problem. I bet there's a wrist band for it.
 
2012-11-24 11:24:32 AM  
One of the few things I'm really looking forward to in fatherhood will be an excuse to buy up hordes of lego for my kids, regardless of their gender. I loved those little carpet caltrops!
 
2012-11-24 11:39:51 AM  
beta_plus: Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well


A) I find it hard to believe they're so stupid as to have neither Legos nor Swedish Imitation Legos

B) Gender neutrality + nationalist stupidity that penalizes children = stupidity

So you got your pick, there. BUT there are lots of build-stuff-yourself toys. I like Legos, but it doesn't have to be Legos.
 
2012-11-24 11:45:33 AM  
Keep farking that chicken.
 
2012-11-24 11:57:07 AM  

GORDON: Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Yeah, because people today have real hard time right understanding they can do anything they want, don't they Ru Paul.

Just another solution lacking a real problem. I bet there's a wrist band for it.


Know how I know you don't have kids?

I was lucky enough to be raised by hippy, PhD wielding teachers, who fully embraced a gender neutral upbringing for me and my sisters. I've followed in the same fashion with my children and this solution that lacks a problem only yields compassionate and confident children. Without worrying about how others perceive you, especially during the hormonally tumultuous time of adolescents my self, my siblings and my children were/are able to cut though the bullshiat of how people perceive and judge you based on your appearance and societal expectations and instead focus on school and extracurriculars. I can honestly say I had a blast being a dorky, one of the guys girls in high school, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Mind you children will socialize in-spite of your best efforts, but when they come home and aren't pressured to be masculine or feminine and can talk about how ridiculous it all is, and laugh at how seriously their peers take fitting into preconceived boxes I will never regret the decision my husband and I made for our children.
 
2012-11-24 11:59:28 AM  
Awesome!

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


How about we just encourage people to be whoever they are? If they're a boy who likes dolls, well, that's fine. If they're a boy who likes trucks, that's OK, too. If they're a girl who likes trucks, that's fine. If they're a girl who likes dolls, that's OK, too.

I don't think it's OK to impose a gender role upon a kid, whether it's the one for the sex the child is or the opposite one. It's 2012. We should beyond this crap already.
 
2012-11-24 12:00:41 PM  

shivashakti: We should beyond this crap already.


Whoops. Meant to type "We should BE beyond this crap already."
 
2012-11-24 12:04:22 PM  
Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay. The prospect of me marrying my female Skyrim character to another female was gross, not quite repulsive but she was adamant that it was wrong. I explained to her that a lot of people are just born like that, but she kept complaining until I changed it. I've found this behavior interesting, she's genuinely a sweet little girl with no ill will towards gays but she finds the behavior quite confusing. In Skyrim, instead of running around killing dragons and leveling up armor, she spends time adopting children for her mansion she's able to customize, and courting a husband. No role model in real life displays this type of behavior for her to mimmic, this is just what she is magnetized toward.

I think the uneasiness towards homosexuality (or boys playing with girls toys-type behavior) is a very natural thing for children if they weren't raised around those type of people. The gay behavior is out of the norm, and so it can be confusing at first for them to understand, because they aren't old enough to understand relationships. I initially wanted to scold her for saying statements like "homosexuality is gross", if it was a contemporary acquaintance I'd probably tell them to grow up. But it really just is that deep in their bones. The acceptance of "some boys act like girls" or vice versa will have to occur when they are old enough to start understanding relationships.
 
2012-11-24 12:04:39 PM  

RandomAxe: beta_plus: Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well

A) I find it hard to believe they're so stupid as to have neither Legos nor Swedish Imitation Legos

B) Gender neutrality + nationalist stupidity that penalizes children = stupidity

So you got your pick, there. BUT there are lots of build-stuff-yourself toys. I like Legos, but it doesn't have to be Legos.


I'm just giving you a hard time, but you'd be surprised the nasty stuff they say about each other.

/fellow lover of Legos
 
2012-11-24 12:04:56 PM  

RandomAxe: That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.


"Good" toys being band saws, drill presses, and belt sanders.
 
2012-11-24 12:20:42 PM  
Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls. Nothing wrong with that. There's definitely a sub-section of the population who buck tradition. Nothing wrong with that, either.

But why not advertise to the majority? You'll marginalize the minority, I suppose. But as long as we all teach our children understanding and acceptance and as long as we try to educate in the presence of ignorance... what's the problem?

It's either that or try and shoehorn everyone into the same mold. So either a small minority of people don't "fit" the mold or EVERYONE doesn't fit. Which sounds more reasonable?
 
2012-11-24 12:26:01 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.


Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering, and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

There's a story on the Sociological Images blog about this homework assignment, in which 8 year olds were instructed to categorize toys by "boys", "girls", and "both"... And this one girl failed, because she put too many things in the "both" category:
static.thesocietypages.org
Isn't that social engineering?
 
2012-11-24 12:28:16 PM  

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay. The prospect of me marrying my female Skyrim character to another female was gross, not quite repulsive but she was adamant that it was wrong. I explained to her that a lot of people are just born like that, but she kept complaining until I changed it. I've found this behavior interesting, she's genuinely a sweet little girl with no ill will towards gays but she finds the behavior quite confusing. In Skyrim, instead of running around killing dragons and leveling up armor, she spends time adopting children for her mansion she's able to customize, and courting a husband. No role model in real life displays this type of behavior for her to mimmic, this is just what she is magnetized toward.

I think the uneasiness towards homosexuality (or boys playing with girls toys-type behavior) is a very natural thing for children if they weren't raised around those type of people. The gay behavior is out of the norm, and so it can be confusing at first for them to understand, because they aren't old enough to understand relationships. I initially wanted to scold her for saying statements like "homosexuality is gross", if it was a contemporary acquaintance I'd probably tell them to grow up. But it really just is that deep in their bones. The acceptance of "some boys act like girls" or vice versa will have to occur when they are old enough to start understanding relationships.


Yes, because your daughter could never get an idea in her head that didn't come from you. She obviously doesn't go to a school where "gay" is a generic term of abuse that kids throw around even before they know what it means (or at least, that's how it was in my day). This aversion to homosexuality has no other explanation than some kind of innate disgust. She certainly doesn't live in a youth culture that has an intense pressure to conform and tends to ostracise random groups of people it labels as outsiders.

/Don't worry, in a few year's she'll probably end up "practice kissing" with her girlfriends
//which isn't gay of course, cos it's just practice
 
2012-11-24 12:28:49 PM  

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay.


And your daughter doesn't go to school, watch television, or otherwise interact with anyone except you? Come on.
 
2012-11-24 12:29:49 PM  

Honest Bender: Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls. Nothing wrong with that. There's definitely a sub-section of the population who buck tradition. Nothing wrong with that, either.


It's not all sewn into the DNA. Culture plays a big part too.
www.yourememberthat.com
 
2012-11-24 12:30:54 PM  
i saw boys holding boys in san francisco and it made me throw up in my mouth
 
2012-11-24 12:30:54 PM  
Just let kids decide for themselves which toys they like. Take them to Toys 'Я' Us and see what catches their eye.

It's not your job as parents to police which toys your kids like. Excepting, of course, safety and morality concerns.
 
2012-11-24 12:32:15 PM  

Honest Bender: Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls.


As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.

It's either that or try and shoehorn everyone into the same mold. So either a small minority of people don't "fit" the mold or EVERYONE doesn't fit. Which sounds more reasonable?

Except that, one, there isn't a "the mold". Kids are individuals, not binary switches. And two, the shoehorning that Sweden is doing is shoehorning them out of being placed into these molds. If you're "shoehorning" people into being individuals, is that really shoehorning?
 
2012-11-24 12:32:40 PM  

Theaetetus: Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering,


This catalog thing is a result of a much bigger effort.

and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

No, in the absence of these efforts that is the way people would normally behave. There is no effort to influence behavior or results.
 
2012-11-24 12:33:17 PM  
Wow- 22 posts and no fark-fest of chicks-with-guns pictures? No Sarah Palin bikini & assault rifle jpeg? Fark, I am disappoint.

/Not really- I never did understand that fetish.
//The gun part, I mean. The "girls" part, I get just fine.
 
2012-11-24 12:34:22 PM  
It hardly matters, they are going to be offered up as a sacrifice to the Elder Gods anyway.
 
2012-11-24 12:34:31 PM  
Boys play with dolls but they call them "action figures".
 
2012-11-24 12:36:40 PM  

Theaetetus: Isn't that social engineering?


This definitely isn't social engineering.
farm5.staticflickr.com

Kids are stupid, but they aren't that stupid. They're smart enough to get the subtle messages that society is trying to send them about who they should be, but they're not smart enough to realise that those messages are just somebody else's dumb idea that they don't actually have to follow. Some people aren't smart enough to realise this even after they've become adults.
 
2012-11-24 12:38:04 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering,

This catalog thing is a result of a much bigger effort.

and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

No, in the absence of these efforts that is the way people would normally behave. There is no effort to influence behavior or results.


If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?

And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.
 
2012-11-24 12:38:13 PM  

Theaetetus: As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.


I admitted no such thing. You advertise your products to your target audience. Boys and girls have innate differences, and while there is some overlap, will choose different types of activities if given free choice.
 
2012-11-24 12:40:18 PM  

Theaetetus: If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?


No, for that to be true you are assuming that boys and girls are the same and given free choice wouldn't act differently.
 
2012-11-24 12:40:35 PM  
My daughter preferred stuffed animals to dolls. And my stepsons, who were not technically allowed to own toy guns, could turn literally anything into some kind of weapon anyway. Even a well thrown handful of crayons can sting a bit when they hit the skin.
 
2012-11-24 12:42:35 PM  
As long as it's a combat-ready action figure baby doll.
 
2012-11-24 12:44:00 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.

I admitted no such thing. You advertise your products to your target audience. Boys and girls have innate differences, and while there is some overlap, will choose different types of activities if given free choice.


[Citation needed]

According to several articles about that school in Sweden that is avoiding gender dichotomies, kids play with all types of toys. But there are no real studies on this, because you can't find a kid that hasn't gotten some social conditioning through television, advertising, etc.
 
2012-11-24 12:45:00 PM  

Theaetetus: And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.


Recognizing gender difference isn't the same thing as trying to influence them.
 
2012-11-24 12:46:35 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?

No, for that to be true you are assuming that boys and girls are the same and given free choice wouldn't act differently.


Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.
 
2012-11-24 12:46:39 PM  
A doll!

A doll!

William wants a doll!

/not obscure to gen-x kids with liberal parents
 
2012-11-24 12:47:11 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.

Recognizing gender difference isn't the same thing as trying to influence them.


Chicken or egg, there...
 
2012-11-24 12:52:03 PM  
Great job. I hope they are happy turning kids gay.
 
2012-11-24 12:53:55 PM  

Theaetetus: we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.


Eh... I wont argue the general point. I think we can both accept that society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender rolls. However, I would argue the degree to which they are influenced. You seem to think gender rolls are entirely or mostly impressed on kids by society. I happen to think gender rolls are marginally or minimally impressed on them.
 
2012-11-24 12:58:53 PM  

Theaetetus: According to several articles about that school in Sweden that is avoiding gender dichotomies, kids play with all types of toys. But there are no real studies on this, because you can't find a kid that hasn't gotten some social conditioning through television, advertising, etc.



http://www.neuroscience.cam.ac.uk/directory/profile.php?mh504
 
2012-11-24 01:02:09 PM  

Theaetetus: Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.


As with almost ANY theory dealing with human behavior you are going to be able find exceptions and some overlap.

Boys and girls may both play with dolls, but they will play with dolls differently.
 
2012-11-24 01:07:03 PM  

cretinbob: so... real dolls and fake penises?


If you go through the gallery you'll find Real Dolls with fake penises.
 
2012-11-24 01:07:05 PM  

Honest Bender: Eh... I wont argue the general point. I think we can both accept that society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender rolls. However, I would argue the degree to which they are influenced. You seem to think gender rolls are entirely or mostly impressed on kids by society. I happen to think gender rolls are marginally or minimally impressed on them.


Yep. And, unfortunately, there aren't any real good studies on this stuff. As you note, the closest you get is studies in non-human primates, and those studies have some innate flaws: first, there are multiple variables changed between the toy types (fuzzy vs. non-fuzzy, dynamic vs. static, bright color vs. dull color, etc.) so it's not clear that they're actually testing a gender preference for the toy as opposed to a gender preference for, say, color*. Second, the study is actually circular - they've pre-defined the toys as being "girls" or "boys" toys, and as a result, are really testing the researchers' definitions of gender rather than the innate preferences of the monkeys.

*which makes much more sense from a biological standpoint anyway - as we know, there are gender-linked biological differences in color-blindness, for example.
 
2012-11-24 01:09:11 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.

As with almost ANY theory dealing with human behavior you are going to be able find exceptions and some overlap.

Boys and girls may both play with dolls, but they will play with dolls differently.


But why? As you've said, society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender roles. As noted above, we're not disagreeing on whether or not kids do play differently - we're arguing about whether it's due to nature or nurture.
 
2012-11-24 01:13:12 PM  
Boys playing with dolls? Ridiculous, What a useless skill set. Girls playing with guns OTOH = Fark yeah!
Women who can handle firearms are the ones you marry.

/and NEVER cheat on.
 
2012-11-24 01:20:25 PM  

Theaetetus: But why? As you've said, society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender roles. As noted above, we're not disagreeing on whether or not kids do play differently - we're arguing about whether it's due to nature or nurture.


It's both nature and nurture. Inherent differences are sometimes magnified by society.
 
2012-11-24 01:23:12 PM  

Theaetetus: But why? As you've said, society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender roles. As noted above, we're not disagreeing on whether or not kids do play differently - we're arguing about whether it's due to nature or nurture.


I say it's both. The aggressive/nurture divide is in the DNA generally speaking, but there is pressure from media and friends and family too. Even a boy who wants to spend just 5% of his time doing some nurture play with 95% aggressive could easily get discouraged in a homophobic environment.

I remember having a best friend that pulled me into being sort of a pro wrestling fan and when he moved away, the connection between me and pro wrestling also went bye bye.
 
2012-11-24 01:25:12 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: But why? As you've said, society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender roles. As noted above, we're not disagreeing on whether or not kids do play differently - we're arguing about whether it's due to nature or nurture.

It's both nature and nurture. Inherent differences are sometimes magnified by society.


1% nature, 99% nurture? 50-50%? More? You act like this stuff is known, when it isn't.
 
2012-11-24 01:26:30 PM  

Theaetetus: D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay.

And your daughter doesn't go to school, watch television, or otherwise interact with anyone except you? Come on.



So the television and everyone else in society is beating anti-homosexual propaganda into our 2nd graders now? No, this is not the issue here, not at all. It is a child rationalizing something she doesnt understand.
 
2012-11-24 01:30:54 PM  

SundaesChild: My daughter preferred stuffed animals to dolls. And my stepsons, who were not technically allowed to own toy guns, could turn literally anything into some kind of weapon anyway. Even a well thrown handful of crayons can sting a bit when they hit the skin.


Having gotten to that point in life when I find myself surrounded by youngsters - I have to agree - generally there is a difference, and good on those who buck the system.

But woe to those who do not let their kids be kids. They like to try EVERYTHING that catches their desires.

With the security provided by good parents and adult friends (of the parents) kids get to suck dry what ever experiences life attracts them too - they will absorb them and move onto something else (maybe something totally opposite) but until they are 18 its the SECURITY that is most important, then the security becomes their concern and their direction our's (sort of, too a limiting extent of how much you luv them :D

Let us be open to the non-normal, let us revile in their restlessness, their uniqueness and remember that each of us must face Death alone - so be nice to everyone ;)
 
2012-11-24 01:31:15 PM  

D_Evans45: Theaetetus: D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay.

And your daughter doesn't go to school, watch television, or otherwise interact with anyone except you? Come on.


So the television and everyone else in society is beating anti-homosexual propaganda into our 2nd graders now?


cdn2-b.examiner.com
www.washingtonpost.com
c498390.r90.cf2.rackcdn.com
thenewcivilrightsmovement.com
 
2012-11-24 01:32:43 PM  
A million years of evolutionary evidence vs 50 years of liberal hippie sociologist professors. I think I know who I am going to choose. Stupid liberals thinking that allowing encouraging their sons to play with dolls is not a form of societal pressure.

Slutter McGee
 
2012-11-24 01:37:54 PM  

Slutter McGee: A million years of evolutionary evidence vs 50 years of liberal hippie sociologist professors. I think I know who I am going to choose. Stupid liberals thinking that allowing encouraging their sons to play with dolls is not a form of societal pressure.


I know. Those hippies from the 1800s putting boys in pink dresses were going against God's plan!

/see the FDR picture I posted above
 
2012-11-24 01:38:29 PM  

Theaetetus: D_Evans45: So the television and everyone else in society is beating anti-homosexual propaganda into our 2nd graders now?

[cdn2-b.examiner.com image 600x295]
[www.washingtonpost.com image 606x428]
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I happen to live in coastal California, where hell and brimstone queer condemnation is absolutely non existent. Gay culture is as accepted here as anywhere.
 
2012-11-24 01:39:52 PM  
anywhere that's enlightened*.
 
2012-11-24 01:39:55 PM  

Theaetetus: 1% nature, 99% nurture? 50-50%? More? You act like this stuff is known, when it isn't.


So shouldn't these Swedes try to wait for more information before they try to influence behavior?
 
2012-11-24 01:44:48 PM  

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


In 20 years there's going to be a LOT of shemale porn out there....

/not sure why I thought of that.. but whatever.
 
2012-11-24 01:48:28 PM  

Slutter McGee: A million years of evolutionary evidence vs 50 years of liberal hippie sociologist professors. I think I know who I am going to choose. Stupid liberals thinking that allowing encouraging their sons to play with dolls is not a form of societal pressure.

Slutter McGee



Come on redneck, your liberal versus republican ideology is even more pathetic than the self-righteous homosexuals. Putting a boy with a jump rope on a poster isn't going to make a bunch of boys gay, dumbass. Whats up with you righties and pushing your agenda on everybody anyway? If your kid is gay, that's his business, and you should support him because he's your kid (just make sure he doesnt grow up a whiny Fark poster). What 2 consenting people do with their bodies IS NONE OF YOUR FARKING BUSINESS if they aren't harming anyone or causing trouble, and that isn't just a gay issue, that's an everything issue.
 
2012-11-24 01:51:24 PM  

D_Evans45: Theaetetus: D_Evans45: So the television and everyone else in society is beating anti-homosexual propaganda into our 2nd graders now?

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I happen to live in coastal California, where hell and brimstone queer condemnation is absolutely non existent. Gay culture is as accepted here as anywhere.


And yet, if you look up the county-by-county results for Prop 8, for example, there were no 100% counties. Apparently, it's not "absolutely non existent".
 
2012-11-24 01:52:31 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: 1% nature, 99% nurture? 50-50%? More? You act like this stuff is known, when it isn't.

So shouldn't these Swedes try to wait for more information before they try to influence behavior?


But, as noted above, we are influencing behavior towards a gender dichotomy. Shouldn't the same caution - or apparent lack thereof - apply?
 
2012-11-24 01:52:41 PM  
Langdon_777

Let us be open to the non-normal, let us revile in their restlessness, their uniqueness and remember that each of us must face Death alone - so be nice to everyone ;)

Oops that was meant to be 'revel' not 'revile'.

*spanks Freud*
 
2012-11-24 02:01:22 PM  

Theaetetus: But, as noted above, we are influencing behavior towards a gender dichotomy.


Are we, and to what degree, and is it causing any harm?
 
2012-11-24 02:02:19 PM  

Theaetetus: D_Evans45: Gay culture is as accepted here as anywhere.


And yet, if you look up the county-by-county results for Prop 8, for example, there were no 100% counties. Apparently, it's not "absolutely non existent".



Oh quit being such a pedantic little dumbass. What issue ever is going to get absolutely 100% support for or against it? You are talking about a population encompassing 3 of the largest metropolitan areas in the country, of course there was going to be at least 1 person opposed.

There is no rampant anti homosexual sentiment where I live, period. Talking shiat like that out here will get you alienated, not accepted. I was going to try and rationalize with you, but now Im convinced that youre just a pedantic little douchebag whining in this thread just to whine.

Enjoy your inequality, dumbass, Im glad when dumb people are discriminated against.
 
2012-11-24 02:17:06 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: But, as noted above, we are influencing behavior towards a gender dichotomy.

Are we, and to what degree, and is it causing any harm?


Certainly, significantly, and it's unknown.
 
2012-11-24 02:19:11 PM  

D_Evans45: Theaetetus: D_Evans45: Gay culture is as accepted here as anywhere.


And yet, if you look up the county-by-county results for Prop 8, for example, there were no 100% counties. Apparently, it's not "absolutely non existent".


Oh quit being such a pedantic little dumbass. What issue ever is going to get absolutely 100% support for or against it? You are talking about a population encompassing 3 of the largest metropolitan areas in the country, of course there was going to be at least 1 person opposed.

There is no rampant anti homosexual sentiment where I live, period. Talking shiat like that out here will get you alienated, not accepted. I was going to try and rationalize with you, but now Im convinced that youre just a pedantic little douchebag whining in this thread just to whine.

Enjoy your inequality, dumbass, Im glad when dumb people are discriminated against.


I truly feel sorry for your daughter to be raised in such an angry environment.
 
2012-11-24 02:23:38 PM  
I assumed this thread would devolve into pictures of girls with guns.
 
2012-11-24 02:25:18 PM  
Why is it a choice between Hello Kitty or guns? Can't they just compromise?

blogitude.com
 
2012-11-24 02:34:45 PM  

Theaetetus: DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.

Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering, and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

There's a story on the Sociological Images blog about this homework assignment, in which 8 year olds were instructed to categorize toys by "boys", "girls", and "both"... And this one girl failed, because she put too many things in the "both" category:
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Isn't that social engineering?


That's awful. Where did you find that?
 
2012-11-24 02:47:22 PM  

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


Theaetetus: DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.

Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering, and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

There's a story on the Sociological Images blog about this homework assignment, in which 8 year olds were instructed to categorize toys by "boys", "girls", and "both"... And this one girl failed, because she put too many things in the "both" category:
[static.thesocietypages.org image 500x835]
Isn't that social engineering?


Re-read the post - http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/11/16/gender-in-the-hidden- c urriculum/

...this was assigned following reading a book about a girl who wanted to play basketball but was told it's a boy's sport. She kept at it, got better, and earned the respect of the boys who were telling her off earlier. According to the guy who posted the picture, the teacher was trying to discuss gender bias. Did the teacher go about it the right way? No, not really - especially when your end goal is showing that these biases are wrong. That being said, this particular assignment doesn't really fit with the idea of a hidden gender curriculum. The teacher wasn't trying to say that these are boy and girl toys, the teacher was trying (and failing) to point out that we are biased in our thinking about what's for boys and what's for girls.
 
2012-11-24 03:18:11 PM  

iheartscotch: Why does anyone care?

My mom dressed me as a girl when I was very young; look how I turned out!

Wait.....maybe I'm not the best example


Hey, ya never know. Maybe one of the guys at the hunting camp thinks your camo-camisole looks hawt.

/just kidding
 
2012-11-24 03:22:59 PM  

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


Yeah, it will be a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world. Except for Lola.

I'm ok with this.
 
2012-11-24 03:28:39 PM  

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay.


Kids come with all kinds of weird notions in their heads by default, like their peas shouldn't touch their carrots on the plate, or that there is a monster in the closet, or that when they grow up they're going to marry mommy. But we just tell the kid to suck it up and get over it.
 
2012-11-24 03:29:07 PM  
What's all this about pussy Legos? ERECTOR sets, now that's where it's at for little boys.
The name says it all.
 
2012-11-24 03:36:53 PM  

Theaetetus: d_Evans45: Enjoy your inequality, dumbass, Im glad when dumb people are discriminated against...

I truly feel sorry for your daughter to be raised in such an angry environment.



You can scorn dumbasses on the internet without reflecting it in your child's upbringing. My daughters are raised in quite the opposite of an angry environment, we are some of the most laid back people you will ever meet. This isn't the backwoods of Tennessee.

Im quite proud of my daughter, and Ill most likely be proud of her whatever she does in life. If shes gay, it will be quite fine, hell I'll be a bit relieved I dont have to worry with all those punkass young men nowadays. But I know for a fact, if she did indeed turn out gay, she wouldnt be the whiny little hurt type to prattle on about perceived injustice and derp pathetically about shiat she doesnt understand like you.
 
2012-11-24 04:08:18 PM  
Sigh. That's not "gender-neutral". That's just swapping gender toy interests.

Goddamnit, Sweden. Get it right.
 
2012-11-24 04:51:56 PM  
This is going to be the US in a few years if we keep giving feminists power. A nanny state where depicting a little girl playing with a doll is "sexist". Where they've gone beyond saying that little boys are allowed to play with dolls, all the way to, "If you don't encourage your son to define his gender role the way we want him to and engage in stereotypically feminine activities you are a bad parent and a misogynist."
 
2012-11-24 05:00:03 PM  

Theaetetus: Certainly, significantly, and it's unknown.


Unknown? Then why are they taking things so far?
 
2012-11-24 05:15:08 PM  

Enigmamf: I assumed this thread would devolve into pictures of girls with guns.


Me too. It ended up being kind of gay instead.
 
2012-11-24 05:20:57 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Certainly, significantly, and it's unknown.

Unknown? Then why are they taking things so far?


Because of angry conservatives who complain about "nanny states". See above.
 
2012-11-24 05:28:49 PM  

D_Evans45: My daughters are raised in quite the opposite of an angry environment, we are some of the most laid back people you will ever meet.


D_Evans45: dumbass... Talking shiat... little douchebag... dumbass... punkass young men...


Yeah, you sound wicked laid back. Perhaps you should put the keyboard down and take a few deep breaths before you have an aneurysm.
 
2012-11-24 05:29:20 PM  
its almost as if.... men and women face different selection pressures and as a result humans show sexual dimorphism.
 
2012-11-24 05:31:47 PM  

Theaetetus: Because of angry conservatives who complain about "nanny states". See above.


In Sweden? Sweden is consistently voted as one of the top countries for gender equality, but that apparently is not good enough, the goal is gender neutrality.
 
2012-11-24 05:51:44 PM  
Homophobia always surprises me. I often hear it from people I never would have expected to hold such ideas. Gender roles, same deal. I've had people who were otherwise modern and sophisticated tell me that I need to be less feminine. For some reason.

Some people (even in this thread) connect the two issues. That is silliness. I grew up playing with everything from dolls to Lego to My Little Pony (not GI Joe, since that was considered too violent), and that did not turn me gay.

Wait, let me double check, because some people seem sure that girly toys mak you gay.

Nope, I'm still straight.


Imagine a kid not raised in our culture. Will that kid have any clue whic toys are masculine and which are feminine? When I read that homework assignment posted earlier in the thread, I realised that I couldn't figure most of those out. Is a jump rope supposed to be masculine or feminine? I have no idea. I can't even get my own culture "right" in this regard. Other culture (say, Japanese) confuse me even more.
 
2012-11-24 05:58:30 PM  
So, do Swedes give their kids "gender neutral" haircuts?
 
2012-11-24 06:18:53 PM  
One thing I have noticed about people like Thaeatetus is, although they talk a good game about letting kids choose their own identities and not force kids into 'gender boxes', they nonetheless have a very strong distaste for rough masculinity and the whole point of their supposed gender neutrality is to get boys as far away from 'bad' masculinity as possible. In fact, they go out of their way to put dolls into boys' hands particularly.

Letting a kid choose their own gender identity means that you don't sneer at the boys when they want to play soldier. When you encourage kids to form their own gender identity but subtly signal thwt the masculine stuff is bad, then that rather gives the game away.
 
2012-11-24 06:26:00 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Certainly, significantly, and it's unknown.

Unknown? Then why are they taking things so far?


the country of sweden is a fortress for feminism. they honestly believe that humans developed division of labor independently in all societies across the planet as part of a vast global masculine conspiracy, rather than due to natural forces.
 
2012-11-24 06:30:08 PM  

Voxper: One thing I have noticed about people like Thaeatetus is, although they talk a good game about letting kids choose their own identities and not force kids into 'gender boxes', they nonetheless have a very strong distaste for rough masculinity and the whole point of their supposed gender neutrality is to get boys as far away from 'bad' masculinity as possible. In fact, they go out of their way to put dolls into boys' hands particularly.

Letting a kid choose their own gender identity means that you don't sneer at the boys when they want to play soldier. When you encourage kids to form their own gender identity but subtly signal thwt the masculine stuff is bad, then that rather gives the game away.


quoted for truth
 
2012-11-24 06:37:18 PM  

cyberspacedout: Why is it a choice between Hello Kitty or guns? Can't they just compromise?

[blogitude.com image 425x380]


yeah. thanks. now my five year old is begging me for the "hello kitty gun" for Christmas!
 
2012-11-24 06:52:36 PM  

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay. The prospect of me marrying my female Skyrim character to another female was gross, not quite repulsive but she was adamant that it was wrong. I explained to her that a lot of people are just born like that, but she kept complaining until I changed it. I've found this behavior interesting, she's genuinely a sweet little girl with no ill will towards gays but she finds the behavior quite confusing. In Skyrim, instead of running around killing dragons and leveling up armor, she spends time adopting children for her mansion she's able to customize, and courting a husband. No role model in real life displays this type of behavior for her to mimmic, this is just what she is magnetized toward.

I think the uneasiness towards homosexuality (or boys playing with girls toys-type behavior) is a very natural thing for children if they weren't raised around those type of people. The gay behavior is out of the norm, and so it can be confusing at first for them to understand, because they aren't old enough to understand relationships. I initially wanted to scold her for saying statements like "homosexuality is gross", if it was a contemporary acquaintance I'd probably tell them to grow up. But it really just is that deep in their bones. The acceptance of "some boys act like girls" or vice versa will have to occur when they are old enough to start understanding relationships.


Well I have experience of my own with my own daughter (now 16) and her friends. They accepted the idea of people being gay very easily. Where did you get the idea about being "too young to understand relationships"? It is very easy for small children to understand people liking or loving each other. From the first moment it was ever relevant to any conversation or happening I was simply matter of fact about some people being with members of the same sex.

Kids pick up these attitudes from all over the place. There is a high chance that strong signals were coming from elsewhere that gay was somehow "yuck". The kids did go through a phase of saying if people looked "gay" but that was because at a friend's house they were watching some series about gaydar. I kept making fun of her assumptions in a gentle sort of way, and I don't think this ever got beyond pointing out that it isn't very nice to say things like that. Basically friend's mum and I obviously had a different sense of humour about choice in telly programmes, but it wasn't really a huge deal and sparked various sensible conversations.

I agree little girls tend to gravitate towards playing games with babies/children/dresses and so on, but again they are exposed to a lot of outside influences. It isn't a problem for either sex, and the "looking after baby" play tends to start as role playing the baby which is themselves (teddy or dolly does what they do, it helps them understand the world). I think 200 years ago nobody would have thought twice about little boys wanting to play with dolls. Toys in general were fewer etc.

Well that's all really, but again I'd like to point out that the idea of kids being too young to "understand relationships" is complete nonsense. You will find the more you talk to your child in simple language they understand about the world around them and the people in it, the faster their understanding and empathy matures. Big mistake to think they are ever "too young to understand" this or that. Actually I have found that the younger kids actually have a very good understanding of people, are very caring - given a chance.
 
2012-11-24 07:33:34 PM  

AJisaff: cyberspacedout: Why is it a choice between Hello Kitty or guns? Can't they just compromise?

[blogitude.com image 425x380]

yeah. thanks. now my five year old is begging me for the "hello kitty gun" for Christmas!


LOL, wonder how old a kid has to be to understand that kind of satirical humor.

If you're not joking, you just might wanna edit the preferences on your account to convert images to links so they don't appear inline.
 
2012-11-24 08:53:55 PM  
This is nothing but a bunch of BS generated by liberals and GLBT types.

Case in point. Sarah Palin is ridiculed for being a beauty pagent contestant...she's ridiculed for knowing how to shoot a gun...she's ridiculed for knowing how to skin a deer. She's a perfect example of having no gender bias.

But she's conservative...so let's bash her!!!!!
 
2012-11-24 08:57:40 PM  
GF named my left testicle thundercles: I once remember seeing a tv interview with some parents who were raising their kid so 'gender neutral' that they were keeping their child's sex a big mystery from everybody. Supposedly, this would help the kid avoid the dreaded 'gender boxes' and develop their own healthy gender identity and so on, et cetera. Their kid was flouncing-around on the lawn in a pink dress the whole while. (It was predictably a boy. As I said: they go out of their way to do this to boys.)

Then, at one point, the interviewer asked if there were any toys or clothes the parents did not allow?

The parents replied: "Yes, we don't allow hypermasculine stuff."

Uh huh, right. So the kid can freely choose whatever gender identity he wants, so long as he gets as far away as possible from that evil 'hypermasculine' end of the spectrum. Sure, mommy smiles a lot more when he wears that pink dress and acts like a princess, but he's totally free to choose whatever gender identity he wants!

What a farce.

A good question for the parents is: How can this boy freely choose a gender identity for himself if you're jerking him around like that?

Screw the kid, though. The parents want to show how progressive they are! That's what truly matters.
 
2012-11-24 09:20:49 PM  
StashMonster - Well that's all really, but again I'd like to point out that the idea of kids being too young to "understand relationships" is complete nonsense. You will find the more you talk to your child in simple language they understand about the world around them and the people in it, the faster their understanding and empathy matures. Big mistake to think they are ever "too young to understand" this or that.


Looking back I could have stated it more clearly. My children have a fine understanding of how relationships work, but not in relation to "boys playing with dolls or vice versa" way. They don't understand that the burly girls who play with boy things or the feminine boy who has a little extra fun with dressup, is eventually going to grow up dating gays.

Also, although it is of course possible that my daughter was somehow skewed by a third party influence from society towards the "yucky" gay feeling, I doubt it. I think it is more a carnal reaction in a probable straight girl towards the feeling of being attracted to the member of the same sex.

In 2nd and 3rd grade, I had already discovered that I "liked" girls although it obviously wouldnt turn into anything for years. If you told me that I was to marry another boy, even in a video game, I'd probably squirm and say something like "ew" as well. It has nothing to do with gay people being gross, it has to do with the thought of being paired with a member of the same sex absolutely unappealing.
 
2012-11-24 09:23:20 PM  
Obviously, you disike the parents' decision because you think a boy wearing a dress is somehow worse than a boy being violent. I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing that this stems from either homophobia or misogyny.

Either you're afraid of non-masculine dudes (whom you might associate with "the gays") or you think feminine stuff is inherently worse.

I'll argue that the traditional masculine image is worse. Being violent and aggressive is usually a bad thing, right? Maybe some parents do this to save their young boys from turning into punks.

In any case, I'd rather see parents pushing a mild-mannered, feminine outlook on their kid than violence and aggression.
 
2012-11-24 09:31:46 PM  

Moonlightfox: This is going to be the US in a few years if we keep giving feminists power. A nanny state where depicting a little girl playing with a doll is "sexist". Where they've gone beyond saying that little boys are allowed to play with dolls, all the way to, "If you don't encourage your son to define his gender role the way we want him to and engage in stereotypically feminine activities you are a bad parent and a misogynist."


The horror, the horror...
It just makes you pee your pants with fear, doesn't it?
 
2012-11-24 09:34:24 PM  

Voxper: One thing I have noticed about people like Thaeatetus is, although they talk a good game about letting kids choose their own identities and not force kids into 'gender boxes', they nonetheless have a very strong distaste for rough masculinity and the whole point of their supposed gender neutrality is to get boys as far away from 'bad' masculinity as possible. In fact, they go out of their way to put dolls into boys' hands particularly.


One thing I have noticed about people who complain about people like Thaeatetus is, they love to make up crap and put it in other people's mouths.
 
2012-11-24 09:41:11 PM  

Voxper: What a farce.

 

mostlulz.com
 
2012-11-24 09:48:35 PM  

Voxper: GF named my left testicle thundercles: I once remember seeing a tv interview with some parents who were raising their kid so 'gender neutral' that they were keeping their child's sex a big mystery from everybody. Supposedly, this would help the kid avoid the dreaded 'gender boxes' and develop their own healthy gender identity and so on, et cetera. Their kid was flouncing-around on the lawn in a pink dress the whole while. (It was predictably a boy. As I said: they go out of their way to do this to boys.)

Then, at one point, the interviewer asked if there were any toys or clothes the parents did not allow?

The parents replied: "Yes, we don't allow hypermasculine stuff."

Uh huh, right. So the kid can freely choose whatever gender identity he wants, so long as he gets as far away as possible from that evil 'hypermasculine' end of the spectrum. Sure, mommy smiles a lot more when he wears that pink dress and acts like a princess, but he's totally free to choose whatever gender identity he wants!

What a farce.

A good question for the parents is: How can this boy freely choose a gender identity for himself if you're jerking him around like that?

Screw the kid, though. The parents want to show how progressive they are! That's what truly matters.


there was a kid who had his penis cut off during a botched circumcision. the parents decided to just give him a vagina and call him a girl. he never fit in with the girls and ended up living a hellish life as an outcast. Eventually he was told about what happened. he decided to get surgery to have his penis reconstructed and lived his life as a man until he understandably committed suicide.

the brain is a sex organ. the reason feminists resist the idea so much is because they have built an entire ivory tower religion on a foundation of shiat.
 
2012-11-24 09:55:10 PM  

Tax Boy: A doll!

A doll!

William wants a doll!

/not obscure to gen-x kids with liberal parents


William definitely scored in the end, much like the smart boys in high school that take home ec
 
2012-11-24 10:33:27 PM  
NetOwl: I assume you're addressing me.

"Obviously, you disike the parents' decision because you think a boy wearing a dress is somehow worse than a boy being violent."

You presume a lot. My brother is gay and we're very close friends. I was one of the first people he came-out to. It's a little moronic for anyone to assume that boys are going to be violent homophobes unless they wear a dress.

The parents are sending that boy the message that the masculinity within him is de facto undesirable and he should avoid it if he wants parental love. That honestly doesn't seem like a great lesson.
 
2012-11-24 10:34:34 PM  
www.thetick.ws 

'It's OK to play with dolls!'
 
2012-11-24 10:51:07 PM  

Voxper: One thing I have noticed about people like Thaeatetus is, although they talk a good game about letting kids choose their own identities and not force kids into 'gender boxes', they nonetheless have a very strong distaste for rough masculinity and the whole point of their supposed gender neutrality is to get boys as far away from 'bad' masculinity as possible. In fact, they go out of their way to put dolls into boys' hands particularly.


[Citation needed]

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen your handle on Fark before. Sure, your profile says you've been here a year, but I have no idea who you are. I don't think we've ever posted in the same thread, previously. So, for you to be all "gosh, the derp I hurr de durr about Theatetus is wharrgarrbl de furp be durp" is pretty ridiculous.

/And really, I doubt you'd actually say that if you met me. I'm 6'5" and into heavy lifting.
 
2012-11-24 11:11:14 PM  
Theaetetus: In that case, I got you pegged wrong. Apologies for jumping the gun.

I'm 6'5" and into heavy lifting.

But wasn't this interest artificially implanted into your mind, though? I mean, seeing as how you were socialized by your toys and by the TV to enjoy physical activities, it probably doesn't come from any genuine interests that you have.
 
2012-11-24 11:13:47 PM  

Theaetetus: Voxper: One thing I have noticed about people like Thaeatetus is, although they talk a good game about letting kids choose their own identities and not force kids into 'gender boxes', they nonetheless have a very strong distaste for rough masculinity and the whole point of their supposed gender neutrality is to get boys as far away from 'bad' masculinity as possible. In fact, they go out of their way to put dolls into boys' hands particularly.

[Citation needed]

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen your handle on Fark before. Sure, your profile says you've been here a year, but I have no idea who you are. I don't think we've ever posted in the same thread, previously. So, for you to be all "gosh, the derp I hurr de durr about Theatetus is wharrgarrbl de furp be durp" is pretty ridiculous.

/And really, I doubt you'd actually say that if you met me. I'm 6'5" and into heavy lifting.


And you need to get to the gym in 26 minutes?
 
2012-11-24 11:18:02 PM  

wildcardjack: cretinbob: so... real dolls and fake penises?

If you go through the gallery you'll find Real Dolls with fake penises.


Yes, I did catch that
 
2012-11-24 11:56:46 PM  

RandomAxe: Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.


True.

My wife took the toy guns away from my boys. They just started using pieces of GeoTrax as guns.

I have to say my oldest boy is pretty creative in finding loopholes.

Mrs Clyph: Stop playing guns with the GeoTrax.
Clyph Jr: It's not a gun, it's a solar collector
Mrs Clyph: Then why are you pointing it your little brother and making gun noises?
Clyph Jr: Ummm... because we're playing robot and he needs to be charged up.

If we let him live to maturity he's got quite a future.
 
2012-11-25 01:03:31 AM  
I can never decide whether to be amused or depressed by the fact that almost everyone treats "society" or "culture" as some magical thing which is utterly independent of biology, rather than something which stems directly from biology.

Many animal species have societies/cultures. Those cultures have variations based on geographic regions, but each one is still an example of a chimpanzee culture, or a humpback whale culture, or a penguin culture, etc.

Humans have human cultures and while there are many differences between the various ones, it's all a matter of details and really are more similar than dissimilar. This is why (well, one reason why) the feminist dogma of the amazing Patriarchy(tm) founded by evil men magically in secret behind the backs of all the women all across the world in every culture long before the written word is so laughable.

Men are bad, m'kay?
 
2012-11-25 02:37:10 AM  

pseudowho: I can never decide whether to be amused or depressed by the fact that almost everyone treats "society" or "culture" as some magical thing which is utterly independent of biology, rather than something which stems directly from biology.

Many animal species have societies/cultures. Those cultures have variations based on geographic regions, but each one is still an example of a chimpanzee culture, or a humpback whale culture, or a penguin culture, etc.

Humans have human cultures and while there are many differences between the various ones, it's all a matter of details and really are more similar than dissimilar. This is why (well, one reason why) the feminist dogma of the amazing Patriarchy(tm) founded by evil men magically in secret behind the backs of all the women all across the world in every culture long before the written word is so laughable.

Men are bad, m'kay?




I get the feeling it's more that when women move further away from their natal group for mating, their new men have greater opportunity for being complete shiatheads without the threat of fathers, brothers, and uncles raining down hate and discontent on their ass.

As humans move further away from their birthplaces and home families. we act worse to outsiders. Because granny and gramps can't see us be assholes.
 
2012-11-25 03:55:10 AM  
What next? Boys liking My Little Pony?

i.imgur.com

lol j/k can you imagine?
 
2012-11-25 04:34:32 AM  
pseudowho: I can never decide whether to be amused or depressed by the fact that almost everyone treats "society" or "culture" as some magical thing which is utterly independent of biology, rather than something which stems directly from biology.

It's worse than that. A lot of people who take the whole "girls are given dolls and boys are given trucks and the man-o-centrick male-archy results" don't even seem to get the process by which toys are typically bought and sold.

Toy manufacturers are very keen on understanding what boys and girls want to play with. Every parent that I know, when they get a toy for their kid, carefully considers what the kid wants to play with. They ask the kid outright. I'm in the process of getting toys for my niece and nephew. What do I do? I ask the parents what they want for Christmas. There's nothing more annoying than getting a toy for your kid and not having the kid like it.

So the parent, after much frustrating consideration, gets the kid a toy in hopes of pleasing the kid.

But the whole "patriarchy" crowd seems to think that toy manufacturers somehow coerce girls into playing with dolls that they do not want. And then the girls become bad at math and grow-up to be Stepford Wives and get chained to the stove.

Sweet Jesus, give children some credit. It isn't so difficult for a kid to ignore a toy they aren't enthusiastic about.
 
2012-11-25 05:04:52 AM  

Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.


Derp de derp
 
2012-11-25 05:07:52 AM  

KatieH24: GORDON: Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Yeah, because people today have real hard time right understanding they can do anything they want, don't they Ru Paul.

Just another solution lacking a real problem. I bet there's a wrist band for it.

Know how I know you don't have kids?

I was lucky enough to be raised by hippy, PhD wielding teachers, who fully embraced a gender neutral upbringing for me and my sisters. I've followed in the same fashion with my children and this solution that lacks a problem only yields compassionate and confident children. Without worrying about how others perceive you, especially during the hormonally tumultuous time of adolescents my self, my siblings and my children were/are able to cut though the bullshiat of how people perceive and judge you based on your appearance and societal expectations and instead focus on school and extracurriculars. I can honestly say I had a blast being a dorky, one of the guys girls in high school, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Mind you children will socialize in-spite of your best efforts, but when they come home and aren't pressured to be masculine or feminine and can talk about how ridiculous it all is, and laugh at how seriously their peers take fitting into preconceived boxes I will never regret the decision my husband and I made for our children.


Lmao
 
Ehh
2012-11-25 11:40:34 AM  

crispyone: This is nothing but a bunch of BS generated by liberals and GLBT types.

Case in point. Sarah Palin is ridiculed for being a beauty pagent contestant...she's ridiculed for knowing how to shoot a gun...she's ridiculed for knowing how to skin a deer. She's a perfect example of having no gender bias.

But she's conservative...so let's bash her!!!!!


This liberal saw Sarah Palin's gun handling abilities on her reality show and was very unimpressed. I ridicule her for character and intelligence, not for having been in a beauty contest.
 
2012-11-25 03:17:56 PM  
How about we stop trying to force others into being what we think they should be and live over own lives?
 
2012-11-26 12:38:22 AM  

crispyone: This is nothing but a bunch of BS generated by liberals and GLBT types.

Case in point. Sarah Palin is ridiculed for being a beauty pagent contestant...she's ridiculed for knowing how to shoot a gun...she's ridiculed for knowing how to skin a deer. She's a perfect example of having no gender bias.

But she's conservative...so let's bash her!!!!!


Actually, she was specifically ridiculed for playing at being the great huntress, yet the much bally-hooed video showed she couldn't work a damn bolt action. If you believe she can skin a deer, you're a naïf.
 
2012-11-27 05:32:24 AM  
I grew up with two older sisters, so tended to act a bit feminine. When I was a teen, it made me seem "safe" to some girls, so I ended up getting laid a lot, so there's that. I also grew up to have healthy respect for women, and it turns out that isn't common in my industry, so it inadvertently worked to my advantage for business success. Let kids be who they are, and focus less on gender roles and more on fundamentals like respect, patience, and practical skills (like cooking and money management.)

Also, if your son or daughter wants to play with guns, do what I did with mine: teach them proper gun control and insist they handle their play guns safely. They still play with guns, but they never point them at someone else; they use 'em for fake target practice, or to shoot imaginary things.

I may not be father of the year, but I have grade-school kids who understand and have no issue with same-sex or opposite-sex relationships, or with different religious beliefs (they go to a unitarian church, one believes in god and the other does not), or with understanding that it isn't what you do but how you do it that matters.

Worth a shot, anyway.
 
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