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(Abc.net.au)   Sweden's largest toy chain says its toys are "gender neutral", picturing boys holding baby dolls and girls brandishing toy guns. Not that there's anything wrong with that   (abc.net.au) divider line 122
    More: Silly, Sweden, toy gun, gender neutral, baby chicks, Toys R Us, toys, opera singers, boys holding  
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3934 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Nov 2012 at 9:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-24 09:20:43 AM
That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

Everybody panic!
 
2012-11-24 09:31:53 AM
if Sweden didn't have well-endowed, leggy blondes, it would be recognized to be just a cog in the German supply chain.
 
2012-11-24 10:16:02 AM
so... real dolls and fake penises?
 
2012-11-24 10:30:19 AM
Working link

From TFA: A comparison between this year's Toys R Us catalogues in Sweden and Denmark, where Top Toy is also the franchisee, showed that a boy wielding a toy machine gun in the Danish edition had been replaced by a girl in Sweden.

Elsewhere, a girl was photoshopped out of the Hello Kitty page, a girl holding a baby doll was replaced by a boy, and, in sister chain BR's catalogue, a young girl's pink T-shirt was turned light blue.


mlkshk.com
 
2012-11-24 11:03:36 AM
That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.
 
2012-11-24 11:07:16 AM
It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.
 
2012-11-24 11:09:01 AM

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.
 
2012-11-24 11:11:04 AM

RandomAxe: That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.


Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well
 
2012-11-24 11:12:04 AM
Why does anyone care?

My mom dressed me as a girl when I was very young; look how I turned out!

Wait.....maybe I'm not the best example
 
2012-11-24 11:12:40 AM

Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.


Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.
 
2012-11-24 11:15:42 AM

Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.


Yeah, because people today have real hard time right understanding they can do anything they want, don't they Ru Paul.

Just another solution lacking a real problem. I bet there's a wrist band for it.
 
2012-11-24 11:24:32 AM
One of the few things I'm really looking forward to in fatherhood will be an excuse to buy up hordes of lego for my kids, regardless of their gender. I loved those little carpet caltrops!
 
2012-11-24 11:39:51 AM
beta_plus: Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well


A) I find it hard to believe they're so stupid as to have neither Legos nor Swedish Imitation Legos

B) Gender neutrality + nationalist stupidity that penalizes children = stupidity

So you got your pick, there. BUT there are lots of build-stuff-yourself toys. I like Legos, but it doesn't have to be Legos.
 
2012-11-24 11:45:33 AM
Keep farking that chicken.
 
2012-11-24 11:57:07 AM

GORDON: Theaetetus: Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.

... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Yeah, because people today have real hard time right understanding they can do anything they want, don't they Ru Paul.

Just another solution lacking a real problem. I bet there's a wrist band for it.


Know how I know you don't have kids?

I was lucky enough to be raised by hippy, PhD wielding teachers, who fully embraced a gender neutral upbringing for me and my sisters. I've followed in the same fashion with my children and this solution that lacks a problem only yields compassionate and confident children. Without worrying about how others perceive you, especially during the hormonally tumultuous time of adolescents my self, my siblings and my children were/are able to cut though the bullshiat of how people perceive and judge you based on your appearance and societal expectations and instead focus on school and extracurriculars. I can honestly say I had a blast being a dorky, one of the guys girls in high school, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Mind you children will socialize in-spite of your best efforts, but when they come home and aren't pressured to be masculine or feminine and can talk about how ridiculous it all is, and laugh at how seriously their peers take fitting into preconceived boxes I will never regret the decision my husband and I made for our children.
 
2012-11-24 11:59:28 AM
Awesome!

Moosecakes: It's one thing to make gender neutral catalogues. It's another thing entirely to actively encourage boys to act like girls, and girls to act like boys. Add this together with the weird stories about using new gender-neutral pronouns, and childcare centers encouraging children to play house in combos of boy-boy, girl-girl, boy-boy-girl and other weird stuff, Sweden is going to have an extremely confused generation of children soon who have no idea what the hell they are.


How about we just encourage people to be whoever they are? If they're a boy who likes dolls, well, that's fine. If they're a boy who likes trucks, that's OK, too. If they're a girl who likes trucks, that's fine. If they're a girl who likes dolls, that's OK, too.

I don't think it's OK to impose a gender role upon a kid, whether it's the one for the sex the child is or the opposite one. It's 2012. We should beyond this crap already.
 
2012-11-24 12:00:41 PM

shivashakti: We should beyond this crap already.


Whoops. Meant to type "We should BE beyond this crap already."
 
2012-11-24 12:04:22 PM
Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay. The prospect of me marrying my female Skyrim character to another female was gross, not quite repulsive but she was adamant that it was wrong. I explained to her that a lot of people are just born like that, but she kept complaining until I changed it. I've found this behavior interesting, she's genuinely a sweet little girl with no ill will towards gays but she finds the behavior quite confusing. In Skyrim, instead of running around killing dragons and leveling up armor, she spends time adopting children for her mansion she's able to customize, and courting a husband. No role model in real life displays this type of behavior for her to mimmic, this is just what she is magnetized toward.

I think the uneasiness towards homosexuality (or boys playing with girls toys-type behavior) is a very natural thing for children if they weren't raised around those type of people. The gay behavior is out of the norm, and so it can be confusing at first for them to understand, because they aren't old enough to understand relationships. I initially wanted to scold her for saying statements like "homosexuality is gross", if it was a contemporary acquaintance I'd probably tell them to grow up. But it really just is that deep in their bones. The acceptance of "some boys act like girls" or vice versa will have to occur when they are old enough to start understanding relationships.
 
2012-11-24 12:04:39 PM

RandomAxe: beta_plus: Swedish nationalists frown upon your Shenanigans.

/Legos are Danish
//Danes and Swedes don't get along very well

A) I find it hard to believe they're so stupid as to have neither Legos nor Swedish Imitation Legos

B) Gender neutrality + nationalist stupidity that penalizes children = stupidity

So you got your pick, there. BUT there are lots of build-stuff-yourself toys. I like Legos, but it doesn't have to be Legos.


I'm just giving you a hard time, but you'd be surprised the nasty stuff they say about each other.

/fellow lover of Legos
 
2012-11-24 12:04:56 PM

RandomAxe: That, and the IKEA Catalog has become the most printed book ever, overtaking the Bible.

If anything, it's a magazine.


Anyway, buy kids Legos, not lame dolls or sad little plastic guns. With good toys, they can make their own dolls and guns.


"Good" toys being band saws, drill presses, and belt sanders.
 
2012-11-24 12:20:42 PM
Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls. Nothing wrong with that. There's definitely a sub-section of the population who buck tradition. Nothing wrong with that, either.

But why not advertise to the majority? You'll marginalize the minority, I suppose. But as long as we all teach our children understanding and acceptance and as long as we try to educate in the presence of ignorance... what's the problem?

It's either that or try and shoehorn everyone into the same mold. So either a small minority of people don't "fit" the mold or EVERYONE doesn't fit. Which sounds more reasonable?
 
2012-11-24 12:26:01 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: ... or an extremely empowered generation of children who understand that they can do anything they want, regardless of what some uptight jackoff with a holy book thinks.

Anything they want, as long as it is approved by the social engineers.


Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering, and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

There's a story on the Sociological Images blog about this homework assignment, in which 8 year olds were instructed to categorize toys by "boys", "girls", and "both"... And this one girl failed, because she put too many things in the "both" category:
static.thesocietypages.org
Isn't that social engineering?
 
2012-11-24 12:28:16 PM

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay. The prospect of me marrying my female Skyrim character to another female was gross, not quite repulsive but she was adamant that it was wrong. I explained to her that a lot of people are just born like that, but she kept complaining until I changed it. I've found this behavior interesting, she's genuinely a sweet little girl with no ill will towards gays but she finds the behavior quite confusing. In Skyrim, instead of running around killing dragons and leveling up armor, she spends time adopting children for her mansion she's able to customize, and courting a husband. No role model in real life displays this type of behavior for her to mimmic, this is just what she is magnetized toward.

I think the uneasiness towards homosexuality (or boys playing with girls toys-type behavior) is a very natural thing for children if they weren't raised around those type of people. The gay behavior is out of the norm, and so it can be confusing at first for them to understand, because they aren't old enough to understand relationships. I initially wanted to scold her for saying statements like "homosexuality is gross", if it was a contemporary acquaintance I'd probably tell them to grow up. But it really just is that deep in their bones. The acceptance of "some boys act like girls" or vice versa will have to occur when they are old enough to start understanding relationships.


Yes, because your daughter could never get an idea in her head that didn't come from you. She obviously doesn't go to a school where "gay" is a generic term of abuse that kids throw around even before they know what it means (or at least, that's how it was in my day). This aversion to homosexuality has no other explanation than some kind of innate disgust. She certainly doesn't live in a youth culture that has an intense pressure to conform and tends to ostracise random groups of people it labels as outsiders.

/Don't worry, in a few year's she'll probably end up "practice kissing" with her girlfriends
//which isn't gay of course, cos it's just practice
 
2012-11-24 12:28:49 PM

D_Evans45: Kids come with these notions in their head by default. I never stated anything against homosexuals in front of my children, the opposite really, but my daughter came to the conclusion that it was yucky to be gay.


And your daughter doesn't go to school, watch television, or otherwise interact with anyone except you? Come on.
 
2012-11-24 12:29:49 PM

Honest Bender: Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls. Nothing wrong with that. There's definitely a sub-section of the population who buck tradition. Nothing wrong with that, either.


It's not all sewn into the DNA. Culture plays a big part too.
www.yourememberthat.com
 
2012-11-24 12:30:54 PM
i saw boys holding boys in san francisco and it made me throw up in my mouth
 
2012-11-24 12:30:54 PM
Just let kids decide for themselves which toys they like. Take them to Toys 'Я' Us and see what catches their eye.

It's not your job as parents to police which toys your kids like. Excepting, of course, safety and morality concerns.
 
2012-11-24 12:32:15 PM

Honest Bender: Why do some people INSIST that we treat boys/girls the EXACT same? They aren't exactly the same. The majority of kids fall into traditional gender rolls.


As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.

It's either that or try and shoehorn everyone into the same mold. So either a small minority of people don't "fit" the mold or EVERYONE doesn't fit. Which sounds more reasonable?

Except that, one, there isn't a "the mold". Kids are individuals, not binary switches. And two, the shoehorning that Sweden is doing is shoehorning them out of being placed into these molds. If you're "shoehorning" people into being individuals, is that really shoehorning?
 
2012-11-24 12:32:40 PM

Theaetetus: Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering,


This catalog thing is a result of a much bigger effort.

and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

No, in the absence of these efforts that is the way people would normally behave. There is no effort to influence behavior or results.
 
2012-11-24 12:33:17 PM
Wow- 22 posts and no fark-fest of chicks-with-guns pictures? No Sarah Palin bikini & assault rifle jpeg? Fark, I am disappoint.

/Not really- I never did understand that fetish.
//The gun part, I mean. The "girls" part, I get just fine.
 
2012-11-24 12:34:22 PM
It hardly matters, they are going to be offered up as a sacrifice to the Elder Gods anyway.
 
2012-11-24 12:34:31 PM
Boys play with dolls but they call them "action figures".
 
2012-11-24 12:36:40 PM

Theaetetus: Isn't that social engineering?


This definitely isn't social engineering.
farm5.staticflickr.com

Kids are stupid, but they aren't that stupid. They're smart enough to get the subtle messages that society is trying to send them about who they should be, but they're not smart enough to realise that those messages are just somebody else's dumb idea that they don't actually have to follow. Some people aren't smart enough to realise this even after they've become adults.
 
2012-11-24 12:38:04 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Which ones? If telling boys that it's okay to play with dolls and telling girls that it's okay to play with guns is "social engineering," then (a) isn't telling boys that it's okay to play with guns and telling girls that it's okay to play with dolls also social engineering,

This catalog thing is a result of a much bigger effort.

and (b) aren't you admitting that social engineering already exists and has an effect on kids?

No, in the absence of these efforts that is the way people would normally behave. There is no effort to influence behavior or results.


If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?

And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.
 
2012-11-24 12:38:13 PM

Theaetetus: As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.


I admitted no such thing. You advertise your products to your target audience. Boys and girls have innate differences, and while there is some overlap, will choose different types of activities if given free choice.
 
2012-11-24 12:40:18 PM

Theaetetus: If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?


No, for that to be true you are assuming that boys and girls are the same and given free choice wouldn't act differently.
 
2012-11-24 12:40:35 PM
My daughter preferred stuffed animals to dolls. And my stepsons, who were not technically allowed to own toy guns, could turn literally anything into some kind of weapon anyway. Even a well thrown handful of crayons can sting a bit when they hit the skin.
 
2012-11-24 12:42:35 PM
As long as it's a combat-ready action figure baby doll.
 
2012-11-24 12:44:00 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: As DrewCurtisJr admits above, kids don't "fall" into gender roles, traditional or otherwise - we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.

I admitted no such thing. You advertise your products to your target audience. Boys and girls have innate differences, and while there is some overlap, will choose different types of activities if given free choice.


[Citation needed]

According to several articles about that school in Sweden that is avoiding gender dichotomies, kids play with all types of toys. But there are no real studies on this, because you can't find a kid that hasn't gotten some social conditioning through television, advertising, etc.
 
2012-11-24 12:45:00 PM

Theaetetus: And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.


Recognizing gender difference isn't the same thing as trying to influence them.
 
2012-11-24 12:46:35 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: If social engineering towards gender neutrality is a "much bigger" effort, then it's gotta be bigger than some other social engineering practice, no? Again, by making that comparison, aren't you admitting that there's social engineering pushing kids towards a gender dichotomy?

No, for that to be true you are assuming that boys and girls are the same and given free choice wouldn't act differently.


Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.
 
2012-11-24 12:46:39 PM
A doll!

A doll!

William wants a doll!

/not obscure to gen-x kids with liberal parents
 
2012-11-24 12:47:11 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: And as for "no effort to influence behavior", see the above homework assignment, as well as the Toys R Us Gendered Gift Guide which lets you pick the exact same traits and interests for boys and girls, and then suggests a very different set of toys.

Recognizing gender difference isn't the same thing as trying to influence them.


Chicken or egg, there...
 
2012-11-24 12:52:03 PM
Great job. I hope they are happy turning kids gay.
 
2012-11-24 12:53:55 PM

Theaetetus: we practice social engineering that results in the majority of them being conditioned to comply with traditional gender roles.


Eh... I wont argue the general point. I think we can both accept that society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender rolls. However, I would argue the degree to which they are influenced. You seem to think gender rolls are entirely or mostly impressed on kids by society. I happen to think gender rolls are marginally or minimally impressed on them.
 
2012-11-24 12:58:53 PM

Theaetetus: According to several articles about that school in Sweden that is avoiding gender dichotomies, kids play with all types of toys. But there are no real studies on this, because you can't find a kid that hasn't gotten some social conditioning through television, advertising, etc.



http://www.neuroscience.cam.ac.uk/directory/profile.php?mh504
 
2012-11-24 01:02:09 PM

Theaetetus: Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.


As with almost ANY theory dealing with human behavior you are going to be able find exceptions and some overlap.

Boys and girls may both play with dolls, but they will play with dolls differently.
 
2012-11-24 01:07:03 PM

cretinbob: so... real dolls and fake penises?


If you go through the gallery you'll find Real Dolls with fake penises.
 
2012-11-24 01:07:05 PM

Honest Bender: Eh... I wont argue the general point. I think we can both accept that society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender rolls. However, I would argue the degree to which they are influenced. You seem to think gender rolls are entirely or mostly impressed on kids by society. I happen to think gender rolls are marginally or minimally impressed on them.


Yep. And, unfortunately, there aren't any real good studies on this stuff. As you note, the closest you get is studies in non-human primates, and those studies have some innate flaws: first, there are multiple variables changed between the toy types (fuzzy vs. non-fuzzy, dynamic vs. static, bright color vs. dull color, etc.) so it's not clear that they're actually testing a gender preference for the toy as opposed to a gender preference for, say, color*. Second, the study is actually circular - they've pre-defined the toys as being "girls" or "boys" toys, and as a result, are really testing the researchers' definitions of gender rather than the innate preferences of the monkeys.

*which makes much more sense from a biological standpoint anyway - as we know, there are gender-linked biological differences in color-blindness, for example.
 
2012-11-24 01:09:11 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Fixed. Let's not try to pretend that I'm ignoring the existence of biological differences. We're talking about what toys kids play with, not whether they have a wee wee or a hoo-ha. And, as you admit, there's overlap in what kids choose to play with.

As with almost ANY theory dealing with human behavior you are going to be able find exceptions and some overlap.

Boys and girls may both play with dolls, but they will play with dolls differently.


But why? As you've said, society puts pressure on kids to conform to specific gender roles. As noted above, we're not disagreeing on whether or not kids do play differently - we're arguing about whether it's due to nature or nurture.
 
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