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(CNN)   A new enemy joins the ranks on the War on Christmas: The Catholic Church   (cnn.com) divider line 65
    More: Interesting, christmas tradition, jesus, wars, Gregorian calendar, eternal life, gospels, scientific inquiry, Religion News Service  
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7687 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Nov 2012 at 1:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-23 01:14:56 PM
farm1.staticflickr.com
 
2012-11-23 01:17:33 PM
religion is dumb. The end.

excuses to celebrate with family are nice though.
 
2012-11-23 01:19:41 PM
i.imgur.com

See, I've been saying this for years, and now the Pope agrees with me.

Time for you guys to pay up.
 
2012-11-23 01:19:55 PM
I wouldn't call that an attack on Christmas. I wouldn't even categorize it as new information.
 
2012-11-23 01:20:30 PM
True Southern Baptists know you can never trust a grovelling Papist.
 
2012-11-23 01:21:09 PM
i don't care i am still inviting Jesus to Christmas dinner.
 
2012-11-23 01:21:14 PM
You ever notice you never see Pope Benedict XVI and Krampus in the same room at the same time? Just sayin'.
 
2012-11-23 01:22:17 PM

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 409x47]

See, I've been saying this for years, and now the Pope agrees with me.

Time for you guys to pay up.


Me to, I picked Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe in the Conservatory.



/religion is moronic
//with out it we would probably have flying cars
 
2012-11-23 01:22:23 PM
Using 'research', ie: the scientific method to explain religion?

/phhht.
 
2012-11-23 01:22:40 PM
According to the pope's research, there is also no evidence in the Gospels that the cattle and other animals traditionally pictured gathered around the manger were actually present.

Hey, that's great, Mr. Pope, but if you want to base your theological research on what there is and isn't evidence for, I don't think you're going to like where it leads.
 
2012-11-23 01:22:56 PM
If it's Jesus's birthday. Shouldn't we just celibrate it on that day?
Nobody tells be "happy birthday" two weeks before/after the fact.
 
2012-11-23 01:24:49 PM
*waves hand* This is not the dogmatic reform you are looking for.
 
2012-11-23 01:25:11 PM
Not surprising since they've been at war against everything Christian for 2000 years
 
2012-11-23 01:25:18 PM
 
2012-11-23 01:26:26 PM
None of it happened. All conjecture mixed up with myth. Jesus was a nobody until adulthood.
 
2012-11-23 01:28:09 PM
I'd expect nothing less from Nazi Pope.



*looks around*

Did it work?

Prolly not.

At any rate, there's nothing about Christmas that has anything to do with the birth of Yoshua. Never has been, never will be. It's all a big fat lie. The only people who buy into the mythos of Christmas are brainless donks.

However, it's still a nice time to hang out with loved ones and party. That's what the celebration has always been about, for many thousands of years.

Now gimme some mulled wine! Let's get sideways!
 
2012-11-23 01:28:55 PM
Oh God, there were so many stars you could have used. What was the need to give these people to the fire, that the symbol of their passing might shine above Bethlehem?
 
2012-11-23 01:29:23 PM
Even the bible itself alludes that the wise men were not there at Jesus' birth, but rather sometime after, like when he was a toddler..

if there was ever a time for the "old news is old" meme is appropriate it's this.
 
2012-11-23 01:29:31 PM
The Catholic Church are the ones who invented Christmas in the first place to steal Winter Solstice from "pagans". Protestants were virulently anti-Christmas until well into the 19th century, some perhaps even into the 20th. It was viewed as a papist excuse to continue a heathen sun worship observance. When did American protestants stop studying history?
 
2012-11-23 01:30:04 PM
Duh! I knew all this years ag

/Are you smarter than the Pope?
 
2012-11-23 01:33:16 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not surprising since they've been at war against everything Christian for 2000 years


Failed history huh...
 
2012-11-23 01:33:59 PM

Barbecue Bob: If it's Jesus's birthday. Shouldn't we just celibrate it on that day?
Nobody tells be "happy birthday" two weeks before/after the fact.


No date is actually given: the Bible has a date for the death of Jesus, but not for his birth. There are a number of competing theories as to where December 25 comes from, ranging from Mithraism (whose central figure, Mithras, is said to have been born on that day) to an old custom that claimed great men would die on the day they were conceived.
 
2012-11-23 01:34:45 PM

Anthracite: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not surprising since they've been at war against everything Christian for 2000 years

Failed history huh...


Failed sarcasm, huh?
 
2012-11-23 01:35:42 PM

oldfarthenry: You ever notice you never see Pope Benedict XVI and Krampus Emperor Palpatine in the same room at the same time? Just sayin'.

 
2012-11-23 01:38:11 PM

macdaddy357: When did American protestants stop studying history?


When did they start?
 
2012-11-23 01:39:42 PM

Millennium: Barbecue Bob: If it's Jesus's birthday. Shouldn't we just celibrate it on that day?
Nobody tells be "happy birthday" two weeks before/after the fact.

No date is actually given: the Bible has a date for the death of Jesus, but not for his birth. There are a number of competing theories as to where December 25 comes from, ranging from Mithraism (whose central figure, Mithras, is said to have been born on that day) to an old custom that claimed great men would die on the day they were conceived.


I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but hasn't been asserted that he was most likely born in the spring and that, indeed, the date for Christmas was chosen because of its' proximity to the winter solstice?
 
2012-11-23 01:39:58 PM

Mad_Radhu: Oh God, there were so many stars you could have used. What was the need to give these people to the fire, that the symbol of their passing might shine above Bethlehem?


Nice reference, but there's another interesting point: why would God give the wise men a sign to lead them not directly to Jesus, but first to a king that wanted to kill him?
 
2012-11-23 01:41:08 PM

TheGhostofFarkPast: RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 409x47]

See, I've been saying this for years, and now the Pope agrees with me.

Time for you guys to pay up.

Me to, I picked Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe in the Conservatory.



/religion is moronic
//with out it we would probably have flying cars


Actually, it probably helped advance society early on, otherwise people would be pretty lawless and noncooperative
 
2012-11-23 01:41:58 PM
But while the book points out that the Gospels do not support the presence of animals at Jesus' birth -- a detail apparently added in later centuries -- the pope does not suggest they should be thrown out of the Nativity scene, Speciale said.
"The pope is a traditional man and he doesn't want people at all to change their traditions," Speciale said.


Good for him. If we start telling people not to believe things just because they aren't true, then where would we be?
 
2012-11-23 01:43:25 PM

Lunaville: I wouldn't call that an attack on Christmas. I wouldn't even categorize it as new information.



i.imgur.com 

/holy crap Fark really does allow large images now. Months later I'm still not used to it. I'm too lazy to scale images manually.
 
2012-11-23 01:43:30 PM

Lunaville: Millennium: Barbecue Bob: If it's Jesus's birthday. Shouldn't we just celibrate it on that day?
Nobody tells be "happy birthday" two weeks before/after the fact.

No date is actually given: the Bible has a date for the death of Jesus, but not for his birth. There are a number of competing theories as to where December 25 comes from, ranging from Mithraism (whose central figure, Mithras, is said to have been born on that day) to an old custom that claimed great men would die on the day they were conceived.

I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but hasn't been asserted that he was most likely born in the spring and that, indeed, the date for Christmas was chosen because of its' proximity to the winter solstice?


I'd heard early autumn, maybe sometime in October-ish, but not winter in any case. That December 25th was close to the winter solstice is certainly attractive, and likely factored into the decision, but there must have been other factors in play too, or else they'd just have used the winter solstice itself. Mithraism was extremely popular among Roman men at the time these things were being codified, and the December 25th date was probably chosen to placate them.
 
2012-11-23 01:46:14 PM

Millennium: Mad_Radhu: Oh God, there were so many stars you could have used. What was the need to give these people to the fire, that the symbol of their passing might shine above Bethlehem?

Nice reference, but there's another interesting point: why would God give the wise men a sign to lead them not directly to Jesus, but first to a king that wanted to kill him?


I don't think the star was akin to using a GPS device. I think the reader is to understand that it sat over Bethlehem which was, for its' time, a sizable city. So, once in Bethlehem, they were obliged to ask around a bit. As there were no 7-11s at the time and these were important people who would normally be cordially received by a local ruler, there is reason to believe it would have been logical for them to stop by and chat with Herod.

From the point of view of that particular gospel, that interaction also allowed the three wise men to determine Herods' murderous intent. Thus, Joseph is warned by them (as well as via a dream though that may be a different gospel) to take Mary and the infant Jesus and flee. So, Jesus was removed from harms' way when Herod had every infant boy aged two and under slaughtered.
 
2012-11-23 01:47:07 PM

p the boiler: TheGhostofFarkPast: RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 409x47]

See, I've been saying this for years, and now the Pope agrees with me.

Time for you guys to pay up.

Me to, I picked Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe in the Conservatory.



/religion is moronic
//with out it we would probably have flying cars

Actually, it probably helped advance society early on, otherwise people would be pretty lawless and noncooperative


And another important aspect of religion and mythology--attempting to explain natural phenomena--gave birth to philosophy which in turn gave birth to science and scientific materialism.

/inquiry, like violence, is human nature
 
2012-11-23 01:50:23 PM
You mean there was no little drummer boy or pa rum pum pum pum?
 
2012-11-23 01:52:30 PM

dforkus: Even the bible itself alludes that the wise men were not there at Jesus' birth, but rather sometime after, like when he was a toddler..

if there was ever a time for the "old news is old" meme is appropriate it's this.


I was taught that they came 12 days after the birth, hence the 12 days of Christmas... or am I being wrong, as usual ?
 
2012-11-23 01:54:03 PM
So does this qualify as fan fiction?
 
2012-11-23 01:58:58 PM
It was only a matter of time before the oral christians of today start to eat each other.

Mooslims just aren't as tasty anymore.
 
2012-11-23 02:00:37 PM

padraig: dforkus: Even the bible itself alludes that the wise men were not there at Jesus' birth, but rather sometime after, like when he was a toddler..

if there was ever a time for the "old news is old" meme is appropriate it's this.

I was taught that they came 12 days after the birth, hence the 12 days of Christmas... or am I being wrong, as usual ?


It seems, per my quick trip to the land of Google, they visited after Marys' purification which would have made Jesus at least 41 days old.
 
2012-11-23 02:05:55 PM

macdaddy357: The Catholic Church are the ones who invented Christmas in the first place to steal Winter Solstice from "pagans". Protestants were virulently anti-Christmas until well into the 19th century, some perhaps even into the 20th. It was viewed as a papist excuse to continue a heathen sun worship observance. When did American protestants stop studying history?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS
 
2012-11-23 02:09:28 PM

Cuchulane: So does this qualify as fan fiction?


Basically everything in the Bible written by Paul qualifies as fan fiction.
 
2012-11-23 02:12:16 PM

Cuchulane: So does this qualify as fan fiction?


Just so long as the Pope doesn't start writing Jesus/Judas MPreg slash fiction. 'Cause that would be pretty farked up.
 
2012-11-23 02:19:41 PM

macdaddy357: The Catholic Church are the ones who invented Christmas in the first place to steal Winter Solstice from "pagans". Protestants were virulently anti-Christmas until well into the 19th century, some perhaps even into the 20th. It was viewed as a papist excuse to continue a heathen sun worship observance. When did American protestants stop studying history?


It wasn't, at first anyway, an attempt to "steal" the Solstice away from the pagans as it was to hide their illegal christian observances by doing them at the same time as other solstice celebrations. Now later, in the "file the serial numbers off and pretend its catholic too" phase of Christianizing Europe, every major Pagan holiday got a Christian analog, and we sometimes didn't even bother to Change the name (the Festival of Aeaster for instance)
 
2012-11-23 02:21:55 PM
The Pope isn't saying anything mainstream Christian scholars didn't know decades ago. Non-story.
 
2012-11-23 02:21:56 PM

Millennium: I'd heard early autumn, maybe sometime in October-ish, but not winter in any case. That December 25th was close to the winter solstice is certainly attractive, and likely factored into the decision, but there must have been other factors in play too, or else they'd just have used the winter solstice itself. Mithraism was extremely popular among Roman men at the time these things were being codified, and the December 25th date was probably chosen to placate them.


The "official" Catholic Encyclopedia says that. They are "like, yeah we stole the pagan's festival date, you mad?"
 
2012-11-23 02:24:26 PM

macdaddy357: The Catholic Church are the ones who invented Christmas in the first place to steal Winter Solstice from "pagans". Protestants were virulently anti-Christmas until well into the 19th century, some perhaps even into the 20th. It was viewed as a papist excuse to continue a heathen sun worship observance. When did American protestants stop studying history?


Mithras was the first vampire.
 
2012-11-23 02:27:15 PM
It makes me laugh when devout christians put up christmas trees.
 
2012-11-23 03:01:23 PM
He's right, you know.

The dating of the nativity is problematic. It has been known for centuries that the birth date (or rather the Date of the Annunciation, which is traditionally December 8 and the real counting point from the religious calendar of Dionysius the Shorty started) upon which our calendar is based is off by at least four years, possibly eight. The historical dates of King Herod and other figures makes the timing of events shaky. As for the legendary elements of the story--the animals, the angels, etc--they do not appear in Scriptures or in any other canonical text although some of the texts upon which such details are based were in use in some Christian churches in the early centuries of the religion. Also, the names of the Three Wise Men are from a non-canonical source.

These things are like the story of Rudolf the Reindeer (invented by a department store) and Santa Claus--a mixture of historicl events, legends and imagination. Also, the Coca Cola Santa Claus has little to do with earlier representations--in the poem, "The Night Before Christmas", which created the modern American Santa Claus, Santa was only four feet tall--a dwarf or as the author put it "a merry elf".

The most likely date for the birth of the historical Jesus (denied by many of the Higher Critics and unbelievers), is 4 B.C. Astronomers are constantly trying to prove a date by identifying the "star" which shone in the nativity story, but they can't agree on whether it was a comet, an asteroid, a known star, a supernova, etc.

Jesus, being the King of the Jews, is a Capricorn officially, but a Pisces by nativity, hence the Christian fish symbol. Just like the Queen, he has two birthdays, the one in December (official but wrong) and one in Spring (correct but unknown).

Many of the Roman Catholic and Protestant customs related to the nativity or Christmas are pagan in origin including the December 25th date. Christmas was created to draw Christians away from the solstice and the Unconquored Sun cults of the latter Empire period.

Puritans and similar Protestants themselves attempted to ban much of the ceremony and fun of Christmas but failed. They waged War on Christmas with a zeal which makes any real objectors today look like pussies.

The Pope was a well-known and respected scholar before he became Cardinal and was a power behind the Throne during the time of John Paul II's more conservative later years, so he speaks with some scholarly authority on such subjects.

But move along people, there's nothing to see here. It's not so much a war as military manoeuvres on the parade ground.

Besides, how many regiments has the Pope?
 
2012-11-23 03:03:19 PM

othmar: i don't care i am still inviting Jesus to Christmas dinner.


Can he bring his friend, Elijah? He may be a bit late. Leave the door open for him.
 
2012-11-23 03:22:18 PM

Kuroshin: At any rate, there's nothing about Christmas that has anything to do with the birth of Yoshua. Never has been, never will be. It's all a big fat lie. The only people who buy into the mythos of Christmas are brainless donks.


I've said before on Fark that we need (and on some level we already have) two distinct holidays: Christmas, which is a religious holiday and probably shouldn't be celebrated in December, and Yule, which is a traditional winter festival, secular, and involves Santa Claus and presents.

It's a mistake to combine the two into a singular holiday. Move Christmas to a different month and make it a purely religious holiday that only Christians observe. Leave Yule in December and let everyone enjoy Santa Claus and presents without the Christians complaining that the "true meaning" is being lost. 

/And yes, I'm aware that the conflation of the two was a deliberate ploy that has, in some sense, backfired.
 
2012-11-23 03:31:00 PM

macdaddy357: The Catholic Church are the ones who invented Christmas in the first place to steal Winter Solstice from "pagans". Protestants were virulently anti-Christmas until well into the 19th century, some perhaps even into the 20th. It was viewed as a papist excuse to continue a heathen sun worship observance. When did American protestants stop studying history?


Probably with the rise of mass marketing and the idea of giving commercial gifts to one another outweighed anything else.
 
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