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Wow that must be embarrassing for that guy. And it should be embarrassing for everyone who agrees with him, but it won't be.

In a nutshell:

Kid: What proof do you have that God exists?

Creationist: Uh...because anything is possible.

Kid: Then it's possible you're wrong?

Creationist: WHAARGAARBL!

I like that you can't know 2+2=4 unless you know everything everywhere.

What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I don't think creationist guy knows enough to state the question, but he seems to be saying that one can't prove God does not exist, which requires proving a negative, without knowing "everything", which would allow one to know that "everything" doesn't include God. Mr. Creationist conflates evasion and stopping the debate with with "winning". In his halting, unsophisticated nattering, he is, indeed, completely outflanked by Atheist Kid. The whole mess proves only that Mr. Creationist is full of sh*t, and that Atheist Kid is smarter and more articulate than he.

These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F Roberts

gremlin1: I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous

Good. The earth is only 6000 years old.

Oh... and Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark. He had to tranquilize the 'raptors to keep things manageable.

The creationist's premise is that unless you know everything you can't be sure that anything is true unless someone who knows everything tells you so.

As such, since I don't know everything I can't be sure that God exists unless It tells me so Itself. I assume the creationist believes that God communicates with people through the Bible. However, given the creationist's premise that we can't be sure of anything without knowing everything there is no way for us to know whether the Bible is actually the Word of God.

Fark Me To Tears: gremlin1: I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous

Good. The earth is only 6000 years old.

Oh... and Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark. He had to tranquilize the 'raptors to keep things manageable.

I just want to know how Noah managed to keep the rabbits down to just two.

gremlin1: I just want to know how Noah managed to keep the rabbits down to just two.

All the animals got a commemorative lucky rabbit's foot upon departure.

How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

gremlin1: Fark Me To Tears: gremlin1: I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous

Good. The earth is only 6000 years old.

Oh... and Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark. He had to tranquilize the 'raptors to keep things manageable.

I just want to know how Noah managed to keep the rabbits down to just two.

I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I heard a lot of nonsensical arguing, and when the adult got tested, he reverted quickly to "his dad put him up to this." The kid, however, was not willing to listen or consider a differing opinion. Even if it was stupid. Instead of listening to the answer, he was more interested in firing off another shot.

Ultimately, no minds were changed that day, there was no enlightenment or self examination by anyone in the room.

Damn, that's some tortured masturbatory logic.

Dimwitted zealots.

Earguy: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I heard a lot of nonsensical arguing, and when the adult got tested, he reverted quickly to "his dad put him up to this." The kid, however, was not willing to listen or consider a differing opinion. Even if it was stupid. Instead of listening to the answer, he was more interested in firing off another shot.

Ultimately, no minds were changed that day, there was no enlightenment or self examination by anyone in the room.

That's one of the worst 'both sides are bad' I've ever seen.

Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

Weak troll. You should've put more effort into supporting douchebag than calling a child who won a debate whiny.

If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I'll say. And since we all know how much of a fan the Left is now that "math" (since Saint Clinton invoked it at their convention) and "statistics" (since the Mainstream Media has annointed Saint Nate Silver as the Holy Crusader of Liberalism), here's a test they can do to see it for themselves.

1) Watch the video with pen and paper in hand.
2) Mark each time the little boy says "um" or "uh" or some other vocalized pause and each time the man does.
3) Tally up the scores and weep.

See, vocalized pauses are like a clinch in boxing...it's what a defeated opponent does to buy himself time. I've often thought about studying linguistics, and that's a fact of the science. And here's another fact: the higher pitched someone's voice gets in an argument, they more they know they're losing. Listen the video again, and now listen to their voice tones. Tell me who sounds like the frantic, defeated loser.

This is how criminals are caught, people.

It's unfortunate the kid didn't really get the chance to (and may not have been eloquent enough to) destroy that bullshiat "can you trust me that 2+2=4 if it has been revealed to me?" argument, because that was a really dumb example.

Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.
5) Since I have no uncertainty, that proves that the revelation came from god. While your uncertainty allows for god to exist, my certainty does not allow for god to not exist, therefore god must exist, because I am certain of his existence. QED

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument (I couldn't get my roommate to see them, though).

nmrsnr: I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument.

Yay, fun. :D

These are the two most obvious ones.

3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)

Begs the question. Assumes the being communicating with you is perfect (and is not lying). At least, I think this is question begging, or at least similar to it. Whatever the fallacy is in this situation, it boils down to you not having any reason to be certain in the knowledge that the being communicating with you does indeed have perfect knowledge.

Then you have to throw in the qualification that Hovind had to in TFA, with the statement that there is a rule that the being with perfect knowledge cannot lie (yet never offering a reason why or even allowing anyone the chance to ask). Which means any argument you base off that will beg the question, because it will have to assume those antecedents.

nmrsnr: 4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.

Begs the question. Assumes that the Bible is the revealed word of that deity.

Well, that was fun. ;)

/don't mind me... just really really bored right now

I've been outwitted by sixth graders in Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook and by gum has it been that many years since that episode first aired?

The best part about having faith is that it does not require constant validation through argument.

Porous Horace: I've been outwitted by sixth graders in Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook and by gum has it been that many years since that episode first aired?

Since you used the phrase "by gum" I'm going to go with "yes"

Time is cubed

strobe: Time is cubed

would be awesome if he was right.

nmrsnr: I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.
5) Since I have no uncertainty, that proves that the revelation came from god. While your uncertainty allows for god to exist, my certainty does not allow for god to not exist, therefore god must exist, because I am certain of his existence. QED

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument (I couldn't get my roommate to see them, though).

that hurt my brain

I don't even know what I know - how can I possibly know what I believe?

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates.

apparently because it's more important to be right(and therefore better than the other person) than it is to gain a better understanding of their viewpoint and the world in general

/that being said creationist dude seems like a douche bag

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

I am an atheist, and I really that statement. :)

Porous Horace: I've been outwitted by sixth graders in Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook and by gum has it been that many years since that episode first aired?

Did they sell you a bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail?

Old video is very old.

nmrsnr: Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.
5) Since I have no uncertainty, that proves that the revelation came from god. While your uncertainty allows for god to exist, my certainty does not allow for god to not exist, therefore god must exist, because I am certain of his existence. QED

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument (I couldn't get my roommate to see them, though).

So, basically:

SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!! LA LA LA LA LA! NOT LISTENING!! LA LA LA LA LAAAAA!!!!

mamoru: Begs the question. Assumes that the Bible is the revealed word of that deity.

It says it is. Duh.

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

because the atheists would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really an atheist and he's just afraid to admit it.

The creationist would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really a christian and he's just afraid to admit it.

the agnostic would spend all of their time rolling their eyes.

a concept by which we measure our pain
-johann lenin

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

Well, think about the task you've just posed---getting someone to give a shiat enough about the issue to show and ask, "Who gives a shiat?"

Has Mike_LoWELL been freebasing Cheetos?

His performance art is a mite lacking today.

Ed Finnerty: If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

I am.

It's called psychokinesis. Look it up.

I'm not even willing to anymore to accept that others have different beliefs than I do, if you believe in God, you're a damn moron, bottom line.

Pocket Ninja: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

See, vocalized pauses are like a clinch in boxing...it's what a defeated opponent does to buy himself time. I've often thought about studying linguistics, and that's a fact of the science.
.

Can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are about that. I would I mean, but you wouldn't buy it. Please though... quote a few 'sources' which back up your 'fact'.

Meh, you guys missed the part after the video ends; basically, jebus rides a velociraptor, with a Romney/Ryan bumper sticker on its tail, down a rainbow and strikes down the lil' commie where she stands. It was awesome.

/ oh, I almost forgot; Jebus was playing the "America, Fark Yeah!" song on his electric guitar.

// I keed, I keed

Begoggle: [i3.photobucket.com image 288x401]

You don't have enough black mana to cast that.

Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

As long as you're talking about maturity and not chronological age, sure.

gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

Look as crazy wrong as I think the creationists are, at least that guy showed up and answered questions.

nmrsnr: Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.

When he reached #4, you should have referred him back to #1, and then went and got some White Castle while he tried to figure it out.

everybody's gotta believe something

I believe I'll have another beer.

and then another, just to make sure.

eraser8: gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

For science!

My reaction to creationist douchebag logic:

to gear duality to impose the will of greater on the creation of one...

wait i forgot .. what about my pay raise?

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

Agnosticism isn't the subject of the debate, so we don't know whether the kid is also an agnostic.

Keep in mind that a theist can be an agnostic and so can an atheist.

There's also a term for those who think the whole argument is pointless and isn't worth discussing...but, it eludes me at the moment (too many beers).

Begoggle: [i3.photobucket.com image 288x401]

I haven't seen Bevets is a looooong time. I am starting to think he is gone for good.

/It's just not a religious wacko thread without Bevets

This About That: I don't think creationist guy knows enough to state the question, but he seems to be saying that one can't prove God does not exist, which requires proving a negative, without knowing "everything", which would allow one to know that "everything" doesn't include God. Mr. Creationist conflates evasion and stopping the debate with with "winning". In his halting, unsophisticated nattering, he is, indeed, completely outflanked by Atheist Kid. The whole mess proves only that Mr. Creationist is full of sh*t, and that Atheist Kid is smarter and more articulate than he.

Which proves a very important thing, which I just recently learned:

If you have faith, then you WILL be compared to the most ignorant, unwisest people that anyone on the web knows.

If you have religous beliefs, you're automatically a terrorist.

So sayeth Fark.

That is all (that college freshmen have to say)

Yogimus: strobe: Time is cubed

would be awesome if he was right.

You worship Satanic impostor guised by educators as 1 god.

Opposite Creation dooms human singularity. There's no human entity, only corner Cubics,
rotating life's 4 corner stage metamorphosis.

eraser8: gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

Because reasoning minds generated from an ancient, massive universe capable of producing self replicating chemical compounds are much better geared to explore the creation, and by doing such, seek out the Creator.

Unthinking automatons created from mud by magic will more than likely be lost looking for an invisible sky wizard.

Lionel Mandrake: So, basically:

Yeah, but change "believe" to "know" and assert admission of fallibility is a weakness.

Decados: Pocket Ninja: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

See, vocalized pauses are like a clinch in boxing...it's what a defeated opponent does to buy himself time. I've often thought about studying linguistics, and that's a fact of the science.
.

Can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are about that. I would I mean, but you wouldn't buy it. Please though... quote a few 'sources' which back up your 'fact'.

You must be new here. Pocket Ninja is one of the greatest among us, we are all better when he deigns to post.

HortusMatris: My reaction to creationist douchebag logic:
[www.startrek.com image 320x320]

indeed. pocket ninja is our god. go find your own!

Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

eraser8: There's also a term for those who think the whole argument is pointless and isn't worth discussing...but, it eludes me at the moment (too many beers).

Apatheism. It's called apatheism.

SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

Deeply religious individuals may find this material offensive or disturbing. (new window)

Yawn
Humans will be humans

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

No offense intended, but when you just make up your own god you should have no problem making it fit with scientific evidence.

All you've done is find that you can't figure out an answer to how something could come from nothing or how something could have always been around (the universe, and you've picked the former- something from nothing via a big bang) and said 'aha, must be magic' and then personified that magic.

I think I understand your form of god less than I do the followers of any particular religion. They believe what they were told and accept it: they even have stories that, when believed, provide evidence and history of a god of one type or another. You just magicked up your own personal sky wizard.

Rent Party: When he reached #4, you should have referred him back to #1, and then went and got some White Castle while he tried to figure it out.

No no no, you misunderstand. I admitted that I might be mistaken about what I perceive, he admits no such thing, since he knows that god exists, so there is no such failing for him. Since he knows god exists, and he can't be wrong about that (since he won't admit it), then it proves that god must exist.

/my screams of frustration and the sound of my brain grinding to a halt was heard throughout the dorm.
//with that, sleep. I'll try and catch up in the morning.

Rent Party: eraser8: gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

Because reasoning minds generated from an ancient, massive universe capable of producing self replicating chemical compounds are much better geared to explore the creation, and by doing such, seek out the Creator.

Unthinking automatons created from mud by magic will more than likely be lost looking for an invisible sky wizard.

Thanks for the response, but it doesn't really answer my question.

Perhaps I should have fleshed it out a little more. So, here goes:

If the big bang occurred and life emerged and persisted and evolved in the way science has revealed to us, why is there a need for a god at all? Isn't the addition of a god needlessly complicating the explanation of our existence? In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence...so, why insert a superfluous agent into the mix?

nmrsnr: Rent Party: When he reached #4, you should have referred him back to #1, and then went and got some White Castle while he tried to figure it out.

No no no, you misunderstand. I admitted that I might be mistaken about what I perceive, he admits no such thing, since he knows that god exists, so there is no such failing for him. Since he knows god exists, and he can't be wrong about that (since he won't admit it), then it proves that god must exist.

/my screams of frustration and the sound of my brain grinding to a halt was heard throughout the dorm.
//with that, sleep. I'll try and catch up in the morning.

Ah I see.

Why do you even talk to people like that?

/ 0 Tolerance for morons...

Oh, and a two year old repeating "why" could have beaten this schmuck.

SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

That's what always made God so unappealing to me... only a total penis would give mankind the gift of free will, then punish us for all eternity for not using it exactly how he wants us to. That's just a cruel joke and it makes me think that the Christian god is a total shiathead for setting us all up for failure.

/Also, I'm pretty sure its cheating if your rule book is totally unclear
//Slashies

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

One common argument I always see is that the universe is too complicated to have occurred via chance, so something must have created it.

Why does the Big Bang need someone to "set it off", why couldn't the universe exist on its own without requiring a creator?

If complexity is the reason, then wouldn't that same complexity apply to a deity? (IE, God is too complicated to have occurred via chance, so something must have created it.).

And that just results in a logical loop (if God is complicated, then whatever created god must also be complicated, and thus must also require a creator, and so on and so on).

Whereas, the universe just existing, without requiring any sort of creator, is much more logical to me.

// in short, it's turtles all the way down

nmrsnr: my brain grinding to a halt

I'm glad I'm not the only one this happens to.

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

The universe is complicated enough to begin with, why complicate it further with having not only to create everything in it, but first creating an omnipotent being to create everything else? Having a god makes the universe much more complicated, not less.

Ed Finnerty: If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

Not a soul except you.

But of course, I'm crazy enough to believe that God created us because He got sick of being surrounded by yes-men that He created and imbued with conscience but no free will, so....

....

Us.

propasaurus: That creationist guy = Eric Hovind.

Eric Hovind is the son of convicted tax-dodger and creationist wingnut Kent Hovind. Since his father's imprisonment, Eric has taken over the running of his ministries. Despite having a slightly less annoying voice he's every bit as insane. He also shares his father's penchant for money-grabbing, but apparently not his stamina. Instead of Kent's rambling seminars, Eric treats you to 60-second-spots adorned with lavish CGI effects at the low, low price of only \$9.95 per episode. [2] Hey, someone's got to pay off all those tax debts. Recently Hovind has decided to spread the Word to the atheistic liberal masses on YouTube, dispensing free nuggets of wisdom through his Creation Today series.

Mr. Eric Hovind is also the winner of the 2012 Golden Crocoduck award, following his father's win of the first incarnation of the award in 2008.

Dude could have handled it much better that is for sure... "chad, you ask a very good question...thank you for asking it in this forum. How do I know God exists, well that is easy, you and I are both here tonight to debate, how do you think we got here?" btw Chad, I am a Catholic, so I do not believe creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive, so can you explain to me how things began? Are we to believe that two pieces of dust were farking when lightning struck?

Basically Chad, I could be wrong, but creationism got things going and evolution took over..

btw Chad, before you dismiss my first argument, maybe you could think about why it is that almost every society known to man has given homage to a higher being.. Could the appreciation of "GOD" be built into our DNA much like survival and procreation?

eraser8: gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

Because God is a drunken hillbilly. What everyone fails to realize is that God got drunk one day and said to Cthulhu "Hold my beer and watch this!" as he proceeded to ignite a fart causing the big bang.

mamoru
nmrsnr:
I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument.

Yay, fun. :D
These are the two most obvious ones.

Actually, the most obvious flaw besides my brain shutting down while trying to follow that argument:
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being..
"Assuming what I want to prove is already proven.."

eraser8: In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence

Science hasn't though (and correct me if I'm wrong on that one). We don't have an explanation for how something could come from nothing, nor can we fathom how something could have always been.

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

This is kinda where I am. I believe that "god" is like me setting off a batch of sea monkeys and just treating our existence like a trivial almost pet.

Dimensio: Golden Crocoduck award

I just discovered those videos recently and am now a huge fan.

nmrsnr: Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you
don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.
5) Since I have no uncertainty, that proves that the revelation came from god. While your uncertainty allows for god to exist, my certainty does not allow for god to not exist, therefore god must exist, because I am certain of his existence. QED

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument (I couldn't get my roommate to see them, though).

Your roommate is not the only arrogant theist who confuses certainty of an unsubstantiated claim with correctness. Sye Ten Bruggencate believes that he has invented this particular method of apologetics.

Pocket Ninja: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I'll say. And since we all know how much of a fan the Left is now that "math" (since Saint Clinton invoked it at their convention) and "statistics" (since the Mainstream Media has annointed Saint Nate Silver as the Holy Crusader of Liberalism), here's a test they can do to see it for themselves.

1) Watch the video with pen and paper in hand.
2) Mark each time the little boy says "um" or "uh" or some other vocalized pause and each time the man does.
3) Tally up the scores and weep.

See, vocalized pauses are like a clinch in boxing...it's what a defeated opponent does to buy himself time. I've often thought about studying linguistics, and that's a fact of the science. And here's another fact: the higher pitched someone's voice gets in an argument, they more they know they're losing. Listen the video again, and now listen to their voice tones. Tell me who sounds like the frantic, defeated loser.

This is how criminals are caught, people.

The Mike LowELL/ Pocket Ninja singularity.

reklamfox: only a total penis would give mankind the gift of free will, then punish us for all eternity for not using it exactly how he wants us to

Freewill? What's that? There is no free will.

eraser8:
Perhaps I should have fleshed it out a little more. So, here goes:

If the big bang occurred and life emerged and persisted and evolved in the way science has revealed to us, why is there a need for a god at all?

To tell why it's so awe inspiringly (is that a word?) beautiful. To tell us why we love our mothers and remember fondly grandma even though she's been dead for 30 years.

Isn't the addition of a god needlessly complicating the explanation of our existence? In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence...so, why insert a superfluous agent into the mix?

That depends. If you consider your existence to be a grand extension of a complex chemical reaction, then God is an unnecessary complication. You are will return your mass and energy to the system and thermodynamics works. If you believe that we are greater than the sum of our parts, then God is a necessary factor in the equation.

I believe the latter. It does not make the former untrue.

I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely.

Anyway, as much as I prefer logic over faith, it's still obvious to me that these people will not change their minds under any circumstances. Religious belief has the home-field advantage of not having to rely upon logic, which is why it's not even worth trying to have a logical debate to convince them otherwise. Not that I'd even want to. It's only an issue for me when it's shoved down my throat.

I could easily segue this into politics now, but I'll just leave it at that.

strobe: Time is cubed

When the Sun shines upon Earth, 2 - major Time points are created on opposite sides of Earth - known as Midday and Midnight. Where the 2 major Time forces join, synergy creates 2 new minor Time points we recognize as Sunup and Sundown. The 4-equidistant Time points can be considered as Time Square imprinted upon the circle of Earth. In a single rotation of the Earth sphere, each Time corner point rotates through the other 3-corner Time points, thus creating 16 corners, 96 hours and 4-simultaneous 24 hour Days within a single rotation of Earth - equated to a Higher Order of Life Time Cube.

log_jammin: Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

because the atheists would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really an atheist and he's just afraid to admit it.

The creationist would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really a christian and he's just afraid to admit it.

the agnostic would spend all of their time rolling their eyes.

No, an atheist would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really an atheist because the "agnostic" doesn't understand the meaning of words. Being agnostic means believing one cannot have knowledge of something. Just about all atheists are agnostic, including someone who says it doesn't matter whether a god exists. One CAN be a gnostic atheist, which means they KNOW god doesn't exist, but I have never run into someone who says they know for a fact a god does not exist.

In short, people who consider being agnostic a separate "faction" really only want to feel superior to others while looking foolish for not understanding things on both a semantic or philosophical level.

The kid should have pointed out that he believes that '2+2=4' because it can be proven ... not because some delusional douch-bag says it is so.

/but he's just a kid ... adapting to an opponent's argument is a bit advanced for an 11 year old.

I am shocked nobody has brought up Descartes. This Hovind guy seems to have read Descartes, and then promptly forgotten what he meant, but remembered certain terms (God, certainty, mathematics), and tried to string them together by waving his arms.

Painful viewing.

MisterLoki: The Mike LowELL/ Pocket Ninja singularity.

Well, that does it, the universe just reversed directions and is now pulling inwards. I WAS right,
oscillating universe 1, big bang 0.

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I don't even know what I know - how can I possibly know what I believe?

Don't know much about history, don't know much biology, don't know much about a science book, don't know much about the French I took.

Scientists are not out to prove there is no god, rather they are out to find scientific explanations for everything. Either god is beyond the rules of science and they will never figure him out, or he isn't, in which case scientists will explain him, or he doesn't exist. What frustrates fundamentalists is that science keeps finding scientific explanations for things that they had credited with being under the influence of a supernatural cause. It's the big game.

Atheists are just paying attention to the score card, while fundamentalists keep looking up at the scoreboard saying, there is still time left. We can win this, even if it takes a miracle.

If power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, how could we have an omnipotent god that wasn't totally corrupt?

Smackledorfer: eraser8: In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence

Science hasn't though (and correct me if I'm wrong on that one). We don't have an explanation for how something could come from nothing, nor can we fathom how something could have always been.

I'm going to correct you because you're wrong: quantum field theory has demonstrated absolutely that something can come from nothing.

cyberspacedout: Ed Finnerty: If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

I am.

It's called psychokinesis. Look it up.

He can't look it up --- unless you make him.

GBmanNC: No, an atheist would spend all of their time telling the agnostic that he's really an atheist because the "agnostic" doesn't understand the meaning of words. Being agnostic means believing one cannot have knowledge of something. Just about all atheists are agnostic, including someone who says it doesn't matter whether a god exists. One CAN be a gnostic atheist, which means they KNOW god doesn't exist, but I have never run into someone who says they know for a fact a god does not exist.

Josh, I had no idea. thanks for enlightening me.

josh?

SevenizGud: reklamfox: only a total penis would give mankind the gift of free will, then punish us for all eternity for not using it exactly how he wants us to

Freewill? What's that? There is no free will.

So a large majority of us are born destined to be thrown into a lake of fire for all eternity by a dickhead God with a ruthless sense of humor, and there is nothing we can do about it? We have no choice in the matter? We as human beings have no control whatsoever over our lives, our thoughts and our actions? We're all just puppets on strings, living out our days until the moment God decides to smash our meaningless lives out of existence. Thats even worse! This Christian god is making it very hard to worship him.

eraser8: gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Why?

Serious question, by the way.

I asked a similar question earlier in the day...and, just as I said then, I'm not asking to argue with you or demean your beliefs. I just want to understand.

To answer your question, at least for me: Because it's scary to think we're just here because of science. It's scary to know that you're going to die on day, your body is going to rot, and you have no soul; there is no Heaven; there will be no reuniting of loved ones passed. Once you're dead - that's it. Game over. Nothing more. And I'm not sure if scary is the word.. I think "disappointing" might be more appropriate.

I'm a flip-flopper when it comes to religion. I want to believe in God because that's what's expected of me. And during the good times in life, I feel like there is a God. But there are times when I sit back and wonder how one invisible sky wizard can hurt/help billions of people at one time. And there are too many questions that go unanswered by churches in general about the book they preach about.

When the shiat hits the fan, I truly don't believe there can be a God. I mean, we've all been dealt with pretty awful hands from time to time, but I don't buy into the whole "He's testing your faith" bullshiat. Why would a God kill a close family member - someone who absolutely 100% believes in Him with all their being - to test my faith? fark that noise, man.

As I said earlier this week, my views on religion and God change with the wind. Some days I believe. There's no concrete reason why. Other days, I don't. *shrug*

Scripture (loosely quoted) says: There is only one God, He created all things, and in Him there is no evil. So if that's true, where did evil come from? Can you make an argument that evil doesn't exist?

propasaurus: Earguy: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I heard a lot of nonsensical arguing, and when the adult got tested, he reverted quickly to "his dad put him up to this." The kid, however, was not willing to listen or consider a differing opinion. Even if it was stupid. Instead of listening to the answer, he was more interested in firing off another shot.

Ultimately, no minds were changed that day, there was no enlightenment or self examination by anyone in the room.

That's one of the worst 'both sides are bad' I've ever seen.

So when the kid asks him, "what do you mean" in an attempt to get him to clarify his point at about 2:30 in the video, he's not listening to the answer or trying to understand, just waiting to fire another shot? The kid was totally willing and did listen to a different opinion. Watch it again and pay attention to the amount of time the kid talks in relation to the adult.

Did you even watch the video? The kid totally lets him ramble forever, then asks him questions. I'm 43 and I wouldn't have allowed him that much time to ramble incoherently. When he tried to buy more time by asking me my name again I would have told him he'd never be certain what my name was unless his God told him my name.

Chaide: I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely

I've watched too much good sci-fi over the years so I would still be skeptical (in secret probably though, depending on the demeanor of the higher power that's poking their heads in).

EX: something shows up, says "I'm god", ok, how do we know that this is really God?

In Bablylon 5, [when kosh (a member of an advanced alien race) is revealed in his true form, people of different races see him differently (as a representation of their own god)].

So how can we be sure that it's a real god and not just some super powerful alien?

Benevolent Misanthrope: Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

Eric Hovind is the lesser spawn of a lesser religious idiot.

nmrsnr: Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

I heard it a little differently, but that may be because of an actual conversation I had with my uber-religious freshman year roommate. His argument (and the one I think that was attempted here) is this:

1) You admit that you may be wrong about what you perceive (any scientist worth their salt will admit as much, like the child's father).
2) Since you admit that you cannot, with 100% certainty, claim absolute knowledge of the Universe, you admit that it is possible that god exists.
3) On the other hand, were there a perfect being with perfect knowledge, and he revealed it to you, you wouldn't have any uncertainty about the universe, since the perfect being revealed knowledge to you. (This is the guy in the video's 2+2=4 analogy)
4) Since the Bible is the revealed word of the perfect being that is god, I have no uncertainty about god's existence.
5) Since I have no uncertainty, that proves that the revelation came from god. While your uncertainty allows for god to exist, my certainty does not allow for god to not exist, therefore god must exist, because I am certain of his existence. QED

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the logical flaws in that argument (I couldn't get my roommate to see them, though).

I... I see the light...!

And it is..

No light at all...?

I've lost all faith in humanity. None of us are any better than our component parts. Therefore, there must be no God and by extension, no heart, no compassion... no such thing as humanity.

Is that what you want to hear? :p

eraser8: Smackledorfer: eraser8: In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence

Science hasn't though (and correct me if I'm wrong on that one). We don't have an explanation for how something could come from nothing, nor can we fathom how something could have always been.

I'm going to correct you because you're wrong: quantum field theory has demonstrated absolutely that something can come from nothing.

I am no expert, but I have seen every episode of th Big Bang Theory. That seems to violate the laws of thermodynamics as I understand them.

HoratioGates: Scientists are not out to prove there is no god, rather they are out to find scientific explanations for everything. Either god is beyond the rules of science and they will never figure him out, or he isn't, in which case scientists will explain him, or he doesn't exist. What frustrates fundamentalists is that science keeps finding scientific explanations for things that they had credited with being under the influence of a supernatural cause. It's the big game.

Atheists are just paying attention to the score card, while fundamentalists keep looking up at the scoreboard saying, there is still time left. We can win this, even if it takes a miracle.

If power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, how could we have an omnipotent god that wasn't totally corrupt?

+1

Theist: believes in one or more gods.
Atheist: everyone else. This includes people who are unsure.

Gnostic: believes that it can be known for sure that god(s) exists.
Agnostic: believes that it can never be known for sure.

Everyone is either a theist or an atheist AND either gnostic or agnostic.

I'm a gnostic atheist. I believe you could know for sure if a god exists, but I don't know for sure that one exists, so I have no affirmative belief that there is a god and am thus an atheist.

Obviously (heh) you can never know for sure that a god doesn't exist (given that a god by definition could certainly be as nebulous and hidden as it wanted), but unless you completely distrust your senses you could certainly meet god, have a conversation, watch a few miracles, and be enlightened :P When that happens to me I will become a theist.

SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

Naw, hell has been in a cooling trend for the past 15 years. By the time the kid gets there it will probably have frozen over already.

RedPhoenix122: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

Thank God nobody mentioned the banana nightmare.

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates. I have some pretty good arguments why the entire question of whether God exists or doesn't farking matter.

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Blasphemer! The Earth is only 6000 years old, as you should well know!

\it started on a Tuesday
\\around 4 in the afternoon

squirrelflavoredyogurt: propasaurus: Earguy: Mike_LowELL: I guess I must be watching a different video than you guys. I just saw an intelligent, mature adult destroy a whiny kid in a debate. In other words, a Republican exchanged ideas with a Democrat. Lol.

I heard a lot of nonsensical arguing, and when the adult got tested, he reverted quickly to "his dad put him up to this." The kid, however, was not willing to listen or consider a differing opinion. Even if it was stupid. Instead of listening to the answer, he was more interested in firing off another shot.

Ultimately, no minds were changed that day, there was no enlightenment or self examination by anyone in the room.

That's one of the worst 'both sides are bad' I've ever seen.

So when the kid asks him, "what do you mean" in an attempt to get him to clarify his point at about 2:30 in the video, he's not listening to the answer or trying to understand, just waiting to fire another shot? The kid was totally willing and did listen to a different opinion. Watch it again and pay attention to the amount of time the kid talks in relation to the adult.

Did you even watch the video? The kid totally lets him ramble forever, then asks him questions. I'm 43 and I wouldn't have allowed him that much time to ramble incoherently. When he tried to buy more time by asking me my name again I would have told him he'd never be certain what my name was unless his God told him my name.

I think you're responding to the wrong guy.

Rent Party: To tell why it's so awe inspiringly (is that a word?) beautiful. To tell us why we love our mothers and remember fondly grandma even though she's been dead for 30 years.

All that can be explained by chemical reactions. It might lack the romanticism of religion...but, we can explain it. No god necessary.

Rent Party: That depends. If you consider...

I think this is where we have to part company. I don't think it matters what I consider (a better word would probably be "assume") to be true. If I choose to believe that "we are greater than the sum of our parts" then I'm trying to understand the universe by working backwards from a conclusion. In that case, I wouldn't be looking for the truth; I'd be looking for a way to justify my beliefs.

Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

You can't prove that god exists. You can't prove he DOESN'T exist.

All arguments are invalid at that point. Personally, I believe he does. But I don't believe on pushing my belief on others.I believe it's actually quite offensive to do so.

/stupid christians are just as bad as stupid atheists

Earguy: I heard a lot of nonsensical arguing, and when the adult got tested, he reverted quickly to "his dad put him up to this." The kid, however, was not willing to listen or consider a differing opinion. Even if it was stupid. Instead of listening to the answer, he was more interested in firing off another shot.

Of course he did not consider a second opinion. He is a liberal. Liberal is latin for "he who is smelly and poor". I can assure you that Eric Hovind has considered every side of every issue before accepting that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, and that it is not to be questioned.

naughtyrev: Weak troll. You should've put more effort into supporting douchebag than calling a child who won a debate whiny.

You would be wise to reread my post. In thirty years, it will be the world foundation for all academic studies. In fifty years, it will merge with the technological singularity and the singularity will declare me your king. This is not theory. This is inevitable.

Pocket Ninja: See, vocalized pauses are like a clinch in boxing...it's what a defeated opponent does to buy himself time. I've often thought about studying linguistics, and that's a fact of the science. And here's another fact: the higher pitched someone's voice gets in an argument, they more they know they're losing. Listen the video again, and now listen to their voice tones. Tell me who sounds like the frantic, defeated loser.

This is absolutely correct. However, I think it is worth mentioning that liberals are actually using this to their advantage. One of the things that liberals now do before debates is inhale helium, in order to make their voice higher-pitched. Since they know their arguments are bogus, they will delegitimize their own failed arguments, which will actually endear people to the liberal position. I do not know if the child inhaled helium before this footage was taken, but we cannot discount the possibility.

Kittypie070: Has Mike_LoWELL been freebasing Cheetos?

His performance art is a mite lacking today.

RoWRRR DoNt TaX MY CAt FUd ROWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

As an aside, has anyone going ever gone to TAM? I am thinking about going next year...

Evil High Priest: gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Blasphemer! The Earth is only 6000 years old, as you should well know!

\it started on a Tuesday
\\around 4 in the afternoon

Wrong, it was Sunday, Oct 21, 4004 B.C. about 9 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh.

This About That: I don't think creationist guy knows enough to state the question, but he seems to be saying that one can't prove God does not exist, which requires proving a negative, without knowing "everything", which would allow one to know that "everything" doesn't include God. Mr. Creationist conflates evasion and stopping the debate with with "winning".

This is called an epistemological argument and philosophers have been using this for centuries.

It's also bullshiat.

gremlin1: I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

You sound deist.

Yogimus: The best part about having faith is that it does not require constant validation through argument.

Or thinking.

Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

"Proof that god is everywhere" is my guess.

Ed Finnerty: If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

I am.

Also, I feel really stupid saying that I don't believe in God. It sounds like I'm saying I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. I wouldn't say I don't believe in the tooth fairy, I would say there is no Tooth Fairy. I don't say I don't believe in God, I say there is no God.

eraser8: I'm going to correct you because you're wrong: quantum field theory has demonstrated absolutely that something can come from nothing.

As far as I was aware we could get SOMETHING from nothing, but we don't know if we could get everything from nothing (so perhaps I misspoke above) and we still can't get energy from nothing. So still no scientific explanation for how absolute nothing can create a big bang.

But then I didn't take physics at the university level, so I could be quite behind and in the dark on these things.

Yogimus: The best part about having faith is that it does not require constant validation through argument.

While the fellow in the video may not have come across well - because he didn't - some people do fail to realize that 'faith' is the key word. Some have faith in the Lord, faith that God is the creator and faith that accepting Jesus as one's savior is the path to Heaven. Faith is a personal belief. Some folks choose to hold on firmly to a scientific theory. Those folks have faith in that scientific theory. A scientific theory that is man made opinion but not proven fact. Faith is a big word, so is theory.

Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

They're probably just going to announce the presence of water, is my guess.

kg2095: You are seriously funny. You aren't Larry David are you?

I am the head of Tiny Irregular Screws Incorporated, the world's fifth-leading manufacturer of the rare-but-dangerous "exploding irregular screw", which responds to structural stress by exploding. I do not know why construction companies buy these things, but if they buy them, I will continue to make them. As long as they are of high quality, and the exploding screws continue to explode, there will be demand for ones that have not.

Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

I had a pastor years ago who taught that the parable of the lost sheep could be interpreted to mean that there are other planets with life out there. But ours is the only one that went astray, and so we're the ones the shepherd had to come save.

RedPhoenix122: Evil High Priest: gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Blasphemer! The Earth is only 6000 years old, as you should well know!

\it started on a Tuesday
\\around 4 in the afternoon

Wrong, it was Sunday, Oct 21, 4004 B.C. about 9 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh.

And work on the Sabbath?!

Trick question! The sabbath used to be saturday. But everything is sacred and traditional, so don't ever speak of it again.

I'm telling Josh. And I think he'll be very hurt.

Evil High Priest: RedPhoenix122: Evil High Priest: gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Blasphemer! The Earth is only 6000 years old, as you should well know!

\it started on a Tuesday
\\around 4 in the afternoon

Wrong, it was Sunday, Oct 21, 4004 B.C. about 9 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh.

And work on the Sabbath?!

Trick question! The sabbath used to be saturday. But everything is sacred and traditional, so don't ever speak of it again.

Damn, I was hoping you'd get my reference. By the way, I'm wrong too.

By almost a quarter of an hour.

Arguing with a religious person who insists there is a god because they know there is a god will get you exactly nowhere. However, arguing with a non-religious person who insists there is no god because they know there is no god will get you exactly the same place. And that's pretty much where this thread will end up. At the end of the day it DOES NOT MATTER if there is a god or there is not a god; what DOES matter, however, is how people react when challenged about the existence or non-existence of a deity.

There are and have always been people who accept the existence of a god and yet have drilled down to the finest points of science; there have been and are people who insist there is no god at all and yet behave as if some unknown force was driving them on as devoutly as if they believed in Jehovah. Atheism is not a prerequisite for hard-edged science and rationality; nor is religiousness a bar to scientific inquiry and skepticism. But the way people have been carrying on lately, it's going to become that way. Blindly rejecting religious thought simply BECAUSE it is religious is no more "open minded" than blindly rejecting scientific thought for the same reason.

Gregor Mendel was a monk. So was Roger Bacon. So was Martin Luther. Darwin got his start as a Unitarian preacher. It's not the god part that makes people bad thinkers; it's whether or not they can accept the idea that there are other ways of thinking. And that's not unique to religion.

lordargent: So how can we be sure that it's a real god and not just some super powerful alien?

DisregardTheFollowing: Scripture (loosely quoted) says: There is only one God, He created all things, and in Him there is no evil. So if that's true, where did evil come from? Can you make an argument that evil doesn't exist?

Actually, as far as I know, the Christian Bible never specifically says that there is only one god. In fact, there are a number of places where it seems to imply that there is more than one. Modern Christians seem to believe that there is only one god, but so far as I know there's no "proof" that this is true.

What the Bible does say is that you should worship Jesus/Yaweh exclusively, or at least "above" all other gods.

Islam, on the other hand, is the Abrahamic religion that asserts that there is only one god.

And your question is basically the famous "problem of evil."

KrispyKritter: Yogimus: The best part about having faith is that it does not require constant validation through argument.

While the fellow in the video may not have come across well - because he didn't - some people do fail to realize that 'faith' is the key word. Some have faith in the Lord, faith that God is the creator and faith that accepting Jesus as one's savior is the path to Heaven. Faith is a personal belief. Some folks choose to hold on firmly to a scientific theory. Those folks have faith in that scientific theory. A scientific theory that is man made opinion but not proven fact. Faith is a big word, so is theory.

You don't know what "scientific theory" means.

Smackledorfer: eraser8: I'm going to correct you because you're wrong: quantum field theory has demonstrated absolutely that something can come from nothing.

As far as I was aware we could get SOMETHING from nothing, but we don't know if we could get everything from nothing (so perhaps I misspoke above) and we still can't get energy from nothing. So still no scientific explanation for how absolute nothing can create a big bang.

But then I didn't take physics at the university level, so I could be quite behind and in the dark on these things.

If you're really interested, a good primer on the subject is Stephen Hawking's latest book, The Grand Design.

It's completely accessible to the layman (otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to understand it).

Smackledorfer: eraser8: In other words, science has shown that a god is unnecessary for our existence

Science hasn't though (and correct me if I'm wrong on that one). We don't have an explanation for how something could come from nothing, nor can we fathom how something could have always been.

And we've been scientifically studying this topic for how long? Tough questions can take a long time to answer. That's no reason to throw your hands up and proclaim that God dunnit.

RedPhoenix122: Evil High Priest: RedPhoenix122: Evil High Priest: gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

Blasphemer! The Earth is only 6000 years old, as you should well know!

\it started on a Tuesday
\\around 4 in the afternoon

Wrong, it was Sunday, Oct 21, 4004 B.C. about 9 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh.

And work on the Sabbath?!

Trick question! The sabbath used to be saturday. But everything is sacred and traditional, so don't ever speak of it again.

Damn, I was hoping you'd get my reference. By the way, I'm wrong too.

By almost a quarter of an hour.

Shomer farking Shabbos.

lordargent: Chaide: I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely

I've watched too much good sci-fi over the years so I would still be skeptical (in secret probably though, depending on the demeanor of the higher power that's poking their heads in).

EX: something shows up, says "I'm god", ok, how do we know that this is really God?

In Bablylon 5, [when kosh (a member of an advanced alien race) is revealed in his true form, people of different races see him differently (as a representation of their own god)].

So how can we be sure that it's a real god and not just some super powerful alien?

[www.jennysb5world.3owl.com image 175x242]

And this is a situation I've also considered, believe it or not.

When it comes down to it, I just can't be bothered to convince people why I believe the things I do. To me, it's perfectly logical to be unsure, as there's always more to determined. At the same time, it's not very logical for me to let those insecurities outweigh the cold, logical facts of science.

To me, being agnostic is simply being open to suggestion. Not open to manipulation.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Shomer farking Shabbos.

Stop hijacking my Good Omens reference with your Big Lebowski reference.

reklamfox: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

That's what always made God so unappealing to me... only a total penis would give mankind the gift of free will, then punish us for all eternity for not using it exactly how he wants us to. That's just a cruel joke and it makes me think that the Christian god is a total shiathead for setting us all up for failure.

/Also, I'm pretty sure its cheating if your rule book is totally unclear
//Slashies

Free will is from the Devil. Adam and Eve were blissfully stupid until that snake made them eat the apple. Then God jumped out from behind a bush and yelled "Gotcha!" and kicked their asses to the curb. You'd think eating apples would be a sin

The All-Powerful Atheismo: log_jammin: THE DEVIL MADE ME TYPE JOSH INSTEAD OF GOSH!!!!

I'm telling Josh. And I think he'll be very hurt.

fine. Just keep Drake out of it.

The thing is if a god does exist it obviously doesnt give a fark about us (see jersey shore)

Chaide: I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely.

That's not agnosticism. That's just being pragmatic.

Mega Steve: reklamfox: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

That's what always made God so unappealing to me... only a total penis would give mankind the gift of free will, then punish us for all eternity for not using it exactly how he wants us to. That's just a cruel joke and it makes me think that the Christian god is a total shiathead for setting us all up for failure.

/Also, I'm pretty sure its cheating if your rule book is totally unclear
//Slashies

Free will is from the Devil. Adam and Eve were blissfully stupid until that snake made them eat the apple. Then God jumped out from behind a bush and yelled "Gotcha!" and kicked their asses to the curb. You'd think eating apples would be a sin

So all this video proves is that some of us never moved past that blissfully stupid phase...

/I'll be here all night

man metaphysical: The thing is if a god does exist it obviously doesnt give a fark about us (see jersey shore)

You mean the show, or the damage from Sandy?

I grew up in a christian school, these people don't ever internalize situations like this. They simply write it off as a poor child who has been influenced by parents who don't believe and they corrupted his mind. To them, their illogic is perfectly logical. It's sad. They effect many children who become adults and in turn effect their children - all with lies. It will just take time, they have thousands of years and a tradition of fear and death behind them. We just need more time - humanity will realize it's fault.

Gyrfalcon: Arguing with a religious person who insists there is a god because they know there is a god will get you exactly nowhere. However, arguing with a non-religious person who insists there is no god because they know there is no god will get you exactly the same place. And that's pretty much where this thread will end up. At the end of the day it DOES NOT MATTER if there is a god or there is not a god; what DOES matter, however, is how people react when challenged about the existence or non-existence of a deity.

There are and have always been people who accept the existence of a god and yet have drilled down to the finest points of science; there have been and are people who insist there is no god at all and yet behave as if some unknown force was driving them on as devoutly as if they believed in Jehovah. Atheism is not a prerequisite for hard-edged science and rationality; nor is religiousness a bar to scientific inquiry and skepticism. But the way people have been carrying on lately, it's going to become that way. Blindly rejecting religious thought simply BECAUSE it is religious is no more "open minded" than blindly rejecting scientific thought for the same reason.

Gregor Mendel was a monk. So was Roger Bacon. So was Martin Luther. Darwin got his start as a Unitarian preacher. It's not the god part that makes people bad thinkers; it's whether or not they can accept the idea that there are other ways of thinking. And that's not unique to religion.

Not unique, but pretty common.

\so was Giordano Bruno
\\monks come in all flavors

No Blue Gargoyle? We either got smart of gave up.

We gave up.

log_jammin: Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

"Proof that god is everywhere" is my guess.

I guess that's reasonable. But it's not very satisfying.

propasaurus: Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

I had a pastor years ago who taught that the parable of the lost sheep could be interpreted to mean that there are other planets with life out there. But ours is the only one that went astray, and so we're the ones the shepherd had to come save.

Now THAT'S satisfying! Spiritual, emotional, hopeful, it's got everything. I like this one.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Notabunny: Has anyone heard yet what the Creationists are going to say in a few weeks when NASA announces they've found signs of life on Mars?

They're probably just going to announce the presence of water, is my guess.

Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking" and we already know there is ice.

Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates.

We are the ones looking on with bemusement at both the religious and the atheists.

Mike_LowELL: RoWRRR DoNt TaX MY CAt FUd ROWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Whoa-K, now I know for a stone cold FACT you been freebasing the Cheetos. LOLz.

Mike_LowELL: You would be wise to reread my post. In thirty years, it will be the world foundation for all academic studies. In fifty years, it will merge with the technological singularity and the singularity will declare me your king.

Sorry, pal, I already have an Emperor.

Would you like to mainline a few of my hallucinogenic jellybeans?

They're Reaganistic.

Notabunny: Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking"

They discovered a copy of Firefly - Season 2???

Notabunny: Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking" and we already know there is ice.

Ruins of an ancient civilization, that destroyed their planet before sending the survivors to the nearest habitable planet.

Chaide: lordargent: Chaide: I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely

I've watched too much good sci-fi over the years so I would still be skeptical (in secret probably though, depending on the demeanor of the higher power that's poking their heads in).

EX: something shows up, says "I'm god", ok, how do we know that this is really God?

In Bablylon 5, [when kosh (a member of an advanced alien race) is revealed in his true form, people of different races see him differently (as a representation of their own god)].

So how can we be sure that it's a real god and not just some super powerful alien?

[www.jennysb5world.3owl.com image 175x242]

And this is a situation I've also considered, believe it or not.

When it comes down to it, I just can't be bothered to convince people why I believe the things I do. To me, it's perfectly logical to be unsure, as there's always more to determined. At the same time, it's not very logical for me to let those insecurities outweigh the cold, logical facts of science.

To me, being agnostic is simply being open to suggestion proof. Not open to manipulation.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Notabunny: Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking"

They discovered a copy of Firefly - Season 2???

They found Iraq's WMD's?

DisregardTheFollowing: Scripture (loosely quoted) says: There is only one God, He created all things, and in Him there is no evil. So if that's true, where did evil come from? Can you make an argument that evil doesn't exist?

And just how did Satan revolt against God? Angels do not possess free will. Only humans have been given that gift/burden by God.

Ed Grubermann: Chaide: I guess I'm agnostic because the realistic side of me sees no evidence of a god (at least in the sense that a mainstream religion would like me to). Still, I'd be willing to accept a higher power, should one poke its head into reality in an indisputible fashion. Unlikely.

That's not agnosticism. That's just being pragmatic.

Not calling you out with the statement I'm about to make, but hear me out.

This is why I don't care for religious discussions, or at least where they end up. People are more concerned with the label, than they are the thoughts behind them. There's much more to the beliefs I hold than a single word.

Gyrfalcon: At the end of the day it DOES NOT MATTER if there is a god or there is not a god;

Maybe not at the end of the day, but certainly at the end of my days.

/I'm kinda hoping I'm wrong about no god, or at least wrong about no afterlife.

Gyrfalcon: Blindly rejecting religious thought simply BECAUSE it is religious

This is where I have to seriously disagree, and maybe I'm just not reading you correctly. I can certainly reject any line of thought that says "X is bad/good because god". I can certainly reject any line of thought that says "X is bad/good because my parents told me so". Both of those are inherently religious thinking.

Now, X could be murder, or X could be helping your fellow man. Rejecting those concepts doesn't mean I think murder is good, nor helping one another bad. What I reject is the religious reasoning behind it. As you say, someone who is highly religious can certainly be capable of making scientific breakthroughs. What you won't see him do is sit down with the bible for a few hours of reading and then submit any thoughts he had as data for a scientific discourse. So I guess maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "religious thought" because if the only basis for a thought is religious, then I'm going to reject it and rightly so. But if someone presents a thought with reasoning BOTH religious and non-religious, then I will ignore the religious side of it and look at the non-religious reasoning behind it.

I doubt you are saying that I shouldn't reject a statement like "god farts lightning bolts and that's where they come from" but are you saying that if someone says "god farts and that creates a path of least resistance for energy to come from a cloud down to the ground" I should be spending even a minor amount of thought pondering flatulent deities?

eraser8: Smackledorfer: eraser8: I'm going to correct you because you're wrong: quantum field theory has demonstrated absolutely that something can come from nothing.

As far as I was aware we could get SOMETHING from nothing, but we don't know if we could get everything from nothing (so perhaps I misspoke above) and we still can't get energy from nothing. So still no scientific explanation for how absolute nothing can create a big bang.

But then I didn't take physics at the university level, so I could be quite behind and in the dark on these things.

If you're really interested, a good primer on the subject is Stephen Hawking's latest book, The Grand Design.

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]

It's completely accessible to the layman (otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to understand it).

I might have to. I'm going to midnights soon and plan to get some reading in.

RedPhoenix122: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Notabunny: Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking"

They discovered a copy of Firefly - Season 2???

They found Iraq's WMD's?

They found the original film reel of Song of the South?

ciberido: RedPhoenix122: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

Thank God nobody mentioned the banana nightmare.

Did you know Comfort tried the same thing with the apple? I've always wondered how he explains the macadamia nut.

reklamfox: So a large majority of us are born destined to be thrown into a lake of fire for all eternity by a dickhead God with a ruthless sense of humor, and there is nothing we can do about it?

Nope, just the ones destined to be pieces of shiat, like Esau.

RedPhoenix122: Notabunny: Perhaps, but they've been saying the news will be "Earth-shaking" and we already know there is ice.

Ruins of an ancient civilization, that destroyed their planet before sending the survivors to the nearest habitable planet.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Ambivalence: How come agnostics are never represented in these debates.

We are the ones looking on with bemusement at both the religious and the atheists.

Meanwhile, some of us actually know what "atheist" means.

Chaide: Not calling you out with the statement I'm about to make, but hear me out.

This is why I don't care for religious discussions, or at least where they end up. People are more concerned with the label, than they are the thoughts behind them. There's much more to the beliefs I hold than a single word.

I can understand it is a complex issue not easily simplified down to a single label. But from the brief description you do generally sound like a soft atheist.

An agnostic doesn't think the concept of god is defined and therefor would not hope for or be interested in the idea of one being discovered, as you said you are. It is an interesting difference between atheists and agnostics. It's perfectly valid (and common) for an atheist to say, "I think it would be cool if there really was a god." Whereas an agnostic thinks that idea is as silly as asserting there already is a god.

ciberido: DisregardTheFollowing: Scripture (loosely quoted) says: There is only one God, He created all things, and in Him there is no evil. So if that's true, where did evil come from? Can you make an argument that evil doesn't exist?

Actually, as far as I know, the Christian Bible never specifically says that there is only one god. In fact, there are a number of places where it seems to imply that there is more than one. Modern Christians seem to believe that there is only one god, but so far as I know there's no "proof" that this is true.

What the Bible does say is that you should worship Jesus/Yaweh exclusively, or at least "above" all other gods.

Islam, on the other hand, is the Abrahamic religion that asserts that there is only one god.

And your question is basically the famous "problem of evil."

I Googled it, 1st John chapter 5 says that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness. My phrasing was off. I find it very interesting that you pointed out that the Bible implies the existence of other gods. I've clearly got more reading to do. I did not know about the famous "problem of evil". Does that mean I can't turn a profit/Prophet for arriving at that theory independently?

/This is fun

Chaide: People are more concerned with the label, than they are the thoughts behind them.

Yet if we don't understand the words being used then we end up with dueling strawman competitions. At this point, in every single real life conversation I have that involves me saying I'm an atheist (and no I don't seek these discussions out, but rather at some points in political discussions the religious bring these things up) I have to stop and set definitions for our discussions. Without them I end up being told I believe all sorts of shiat that I don't, simply because they don't know wtf an atheist is.

Now, the average person I talk to then corrects me and says "no, you're actually an agnostic" so you might say 'hey smacks, why don't you just tell people you are agnostic'? Well, because then the other 30% of people who do know what words mean would think I'm something I"m not. If I have to explain either way, I might as well do so correctly, no?

And with that I've really got to go to bed. Good night all, and god bless (pending existence of said god)

KrispyKritter:
Those folks have faith in that scientific theory.

No, no they do not. That have confidence in a theory based on the ability of that theory to withstand scrutiny and testing.

A scientific theory that is man made opinion but not proven fact.

Oh, Jesus. Where to even start on this that doesn't begin with "Damn, you're an idiot!"? No, a theory is not an opinion. You really ought to learn what a theory is before you make an even bigger ass out of yourself.

Smackledorfer: eanwhile, some of us actually know what "atheist" means.

And some of us know that one can be agnostic and not atheist.

Smackledorfer:

Maybe not at the end of the day, but certainly at the end of my days.

/I'm kinda hoping I'm wrong about no god, or at least wrong about no afterlife.

That statement right there explains why so much of the world holds some type of religious belief in the afterlife. Because it is painful and uncomfortable for us to think that our loved ones and ourselves cease to exist at the moment of death. It's not nice to think about this as being the only life we get, and when we die we fade into nothingness. The mind has a hard time wrapping it's self around the concept of "nothingness". It's like trying to imagine what life was like pre-birth.

We don't like to think that we will never see our friends and family again when we all die, it's much nicer and more pleasant to imagine that we all live forever in some type of magical place with all the people we've ever loved surrounding us. It doesn't make any sense at all to believe this way, and there certainly isn't any evidence to back it up, but it sure makes us feel better. We don't have to be as scared of death if we don't believe it's truly the end. That's all religious dogma really is, a way of making us feel better about death. If we go on for all eternity after we shuffle off the mortal coil, then there is nothing to fear and we are no longer uncomfortable. Problem solved.

This is a simple explanation that I believe holds true for the afterlife dogma of all religions.

Arthur Jumbles: The creationist's premise is that unless you know everything you can't be sure that anything is true unless someone who knows everything tells you so.

As such, since I don't know everything I can't be sure that God exists unless It tells me so Itself. I assume the creationist believes that God communicates with people through the Bible. However, given the creationist's premise that we can't be sure of anything without knowing everything there is no way for us to know whether the Bible is actually the Word of God.

They can try being Covert-Christianstm.

ThrobblefootSpectre: And some of us know that one can be agnostic and not atheist.

I guess I read more into your early statement then you meant to say. I withdraw my snark.

ThrobblefootSpectre: We are the ones looking on with bemusement at both the religious and the atheists.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Smackledorfer: eanwhile, some of us actually know what "atheist" means.

And some of us know that one can be agnostic and not atheist.

Of course.

You could be an agnostic theist. They're not all that rare.

Kittypie070: Whoa-K, now I know for a stone cold FACT you been freebasing the Cheetos. LOLz.

I have never smoked, inhaled, ingested, or injected any drugs in my life, because freedom does not require any of those things. Freedom is all around you. Feel the freedom. Freedom is free.

Kittypie070: Would you like to mainline a few of my hallucinogenic jellybeans?

They're Reaganistic.

My parents told me never to take candy from liberals.

Smackledorfer:
Good night all, and god bless (pending existence of said god)

That sums things up quite nicely!

But I do understand where you're coming from. I suppose I just like to err on the side of ambiguity, for what I consider one of the most ambiguous topics imaginable.

And just how did Satan revolt against God? Angels do not possess free will. Only humans have been given that gift/burden by God.

Exactly. Growing up Catholic, I was always taught that Satan was jealous that only humans had free will, where angels were not granted that gift. So how did the revolution come about?

KrispyKritter: Faith is a big word, so is theory.

Big words tend to have meanings, of which you apparently aren't aware

NicoFinn: Arthur Jumbles: The creationist's premise is that unless you know everything you can't be sure that anything is true unless someone who knows everything tells you so.

As such, since I don't know everything I can't be sure that God exists unless It tells me so Itself. I assume the creationist believes that God communicates with people through the Bible. However, given the creationist's premise that we can't be sure of anything without knowing everything there is no way for us to know whether the Bible is actually the Word of God.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 476x293]

That other guy is a lying bastard.

DisregardTheFollowing: Exactly. Growing up Catholic, I was always taught that Satan was jealous that only humans had free will, where angels were not granted that gift. So how did the revolution come about?

obviously god made him do it. so the question then becomes "why?"

A better argument for theists is with faith rather than proof, otherwise the debate is lost.

By using examples of faith in everyday things, such as the value of money, in people to do right, and in one's self to accomplish something, the opponent can then be manipulated to understand one's faith in other things they cannot prove such as the creator of all things.

i'm an atheist and devil's advocate, but logic is hard to fight.

log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: Exactly. Growing up Catholic, I was always taught that Satan was jealous that only humans had free will, where angels were not granted that gift. So how did the revolution come about?

obviously god made him do it. so the question then becomes "why?"

gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

I went to Catholic school. We had a PhD. AP biology teacher. He told us on the first day of class "the more I learn about biology, the more certain I am that God exists." He went on to discuss the intricacies of the human eye and how unlikely it is that it would form without some guidance. It was my first experience with the "watch in the sea" hypothetical philosophers argue about.

We learned all about evolution, etc. And it was all the same biology that you would learn at a state school. Catholics get a bad rap for the child rapes, but they are pro-science and pro-evolution, and shouldn't be lumped together with the other Christians who refuse to believe in science.

muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

example?

eraser8: You could be an agnostic theist. They're not all that rare.

Yes, probably more common than hard theists.

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

example?

RON PAUL!

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

example?

This is one example of how they do it.

This is very, very simple. Only people write books. People that claim to speak or write or interpret the word of god are lying to you. Only people write books. It's that simple. Of course I'm using reason, which is completely ineffective against faith. DAMN THESE POWERLESS FACTS!!!!

DisregardTheFollowing: I find it very interesting that you pointed out that the Bible implies the existence of other gods. I've clearly got more reading to do. I did not know about the famous "problem of evil". Does that mean I can't turn a profit/Prophet for arriving at that theory independently?

Well, it's debated, but:

The Bible Confirms Other Gods

Other Gods

How Many Gods Does God Say There Are?

These are some of the arguments for and against.

HBK: He went on to discuss the intricacies of the human eye and how unlikely it is that it would form without some guidance.

They guy never heard of mollusks? They have almost every step in the development of the humanish (the eyes of the squid is actually better than ours) eye. Everything from spots of light-sensitive cells on skin to cups of said, to "pinhole camera" eyes, to eyes like ours.

Here's the thing about the "appearance of design" argument: why do all chordates have the same eye, but non-chordates have several variations of eye? And, as I pointed out above, they have an eye that is better built than the eyes of all chordates.

The correct answer is that there's no scientific proof for God. You can say that it's scientifically impossible for life to evolve through random chance - because the odds are something like 1 over 10 to the 4000th power, or in other words, 1 over infinity - but God still has to be believed in, if for no other reason than you can't be sure -whose- God created things. The God of Christianity is massively different from the God of Islam, for instance. The "Jesus" of Islam is more or less identical to the Antichrist of Christianity.

Atheism, incidently, is a religion too. It's a just a religion that replaces God with self. Atheists are some of the least tolerant people there are when it comes to other religions, and atheist nations have historically killed more people than all religious wars combined.

HBK: gremlin1: These things drive me crazy. I am not an atheist but I agree with their right to not believe in God.
However I believe in God (not organized religion)and have no trouble believing in science. I find the idea of a 9000 year old Earth ridiculous and I believe God set off the Big Bang and then sat back to see how it goes.

I went to Catholic school. We had a PhD. AP biology teacher. He told us on the first day of class "the more I learn about biology, the more certain I am that God exists." He went on to discuss the intricacies of the human eye and how unlikely it is that it would form without some guidance. It was my first experience with the "watch in the sea" hypothetical philosophers argue about.

We learned all about evolution, etc. And it was all the same biology that you would learn at a state school. Catholics get a bad rap for the child rapes, but they are pro-science and pro-evolution, and shouldn't be lumped together with the other Christians who refuse to believe in science.

But, but I thought all forms of Christianity taught backward theories!

If I may quote South Park:

Mr Garrison: Now I, for one, think evolution is a bunch of *bullcrap*! But I've been told I have to teach it to you anyway. It was thought up by Charles Darwin and it goes something like this...

In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its... mutant fish hands... and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this... Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you!

So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations!

But in all seriousness, I agree with you about Catholics. My mother is Catholic, and my brief exposure to the Catholic Church as a child led me to believe that they were the most sane of the lot.

pnkgtr: [www.mediabistro.com image 198x226]

Speaking of hot as hell....

Ed Grubermann: ciberido: RedPhoenix122: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

Thank God nobody mentioned the banana nightmare.

Did you know Comfort tried the same thing with the apple? I've always wondered how he explains the macadamia nut.

Link A tiny bit of NSFW language.

HBK: Catholics get a bad rap for the child rapes, but they are pro-science and pro-evolution, and shouldn't be lumped together with the other Christians who refuse to believe in science.

you know what the best part is?

Fundies don't consider Catholics to be Christians!

French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that even though God may not exist, you should wager that he does, because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. (new window)

j0ndas: The correct answer is that there's no scientific proof for God. You can say that it's scientifically impossible for life to evolve through random chance - because the odds are something like 1 over 10 to the 4000th power, or in other words, 1 over infinity - but God still has to be believed in, if for no other reason than you can't be sure -whose- God created things. The God of Christianity is massively different from the God of Islam, for instance. The "Jesus" of Islam is more or less identical to the Antichrist of Christianity.

Atheism, incidently, is a religion too. It's a just a religion that replaces God with self. Atheists are some of the least tolerant people there are when it comes to other religions, and atheist nations have historically killed more people than all religious wars combined.

log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: Exactly. Growing up Catholic, I was always taught that Satan was jealous that only humans had free will, where angels were not granted that gift. So how did the revolution come about?

obviously god made him do it. so the question then becomes "why?"

It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

log_jammin: HBK: Catholics get a bad rap for the child rapes, but they are pro-science and pro-evolution, and shouldn't be lumped together with the other Christians who refuse to believe in science.

you know what the best part is?

Fundies don't consider Catholics to be Christians!

They were Christian before it was cool

The All-Powerful Atheismo: HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

example?

[catmacros.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]

This is one example of how they do it.

Ah, so you make bald statements with no evidence, even anecdotal, to support them? Humorous cat pictures do not count as argument.

Mike_LowELL: Kittypie070: Would you like to mainline a few of my hallucinogenic jellybeans?

They're Reaganistic.

My parents told me never to take candy from liberals.

REAAAAGAAAAAN. Reagan Reagan REAGAN!!

See? I'm not dead and I didn't asplode into flames upon invoking The Reagan.

They're freedom flavoured hallucinogenic jellybeans. You're really missing out.

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: muck1969: but logic is hard to fight.

libertarians tend to do very well at it.

example?

[catmacros.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]

This is one example of how they do it.

Ah, so you make bald statements with no evidence, even anecdotal, to support them? Humorous cat pictures do not count as argument.

Lol, Of course I have evidence, anecdotal as well. However, you're not worth a stupid argument. Nor is this thread about that.

If you are libertarian... and particularly, if you think the government should eliminate any of the following: FDA, USDA, ED, EPA, etc... I weep for you. I do not "argue" with you.

planes: French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that even though God may not exist, you should wager that he does, because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. (new window)

Which was poorly thought out. God will know you are faking belief and send you yo hell accordingly.

DisregardTheFollowing: It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

I remember being really really confused about the jesus thing as a kid. specifically, "why did jesus have to die for our sins? couldn't god just do something about or sins instead of letting his son die? wait, he didn't let him die, he made him die."

about the time I stared wondering about that I decided I'd rather sleep in on sundays.

j0ndas: You can say that it's scientifically impossible for life to evolve through random chance - because the odds are something like 1 over 10 to the 4000th power, or in other words, 1 over infinity

You could say that, if you were as sentient as a fern.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: They were Christian before it was cool

then they made it cool by papal decree

log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

I remember being really really confused about the jesus thing as a kid. specifically, "why did jesus have to die for our sins? couldn't god just do something about or sins instead of letting his son die? wait, he didn't let him die, he made him die."

about the time I stared wondering about that I decided I'd rather sleep in on sundays.

I was tripped up very early on by the logical nonsense of the bible and about 80% of the things that occur in it, especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Ah, so you make bald statements with no evidence, even anecdotal, to support them? Humorous cat pictures do not count as argument.

Lol, Of course I have evidence, anecdotal as well. However, you're not worth a stupid argument. Nor is this thread about that.

haha, you're so full of shiat you can't even make an argument.

log_jammin: The All-Powerful Atheismo: They were Christian before it was cool

then they made it cool by papal decree

The original ironic hat

They pitted Eric Hovind against a sixth-grader!? That wasn′t fair! Hovind isn′t even smarter than a fifth-grader, nor even this four-year-old for that matter!

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Ah, so you make bald statements with no evidence, even anecdotal, to support them? Humorous cat pictures do not count as argument.

Lol, Of course I have evidence, anecdotal as well. However, you're not worth a stupid argument. Nor is this thread about that.

[24.media.tumblr.com image 450x311]

haha, you're so full of shiat you can't even make an argument.

Hilarious. "Argue with me or you're wrong."

fark off.

Holy sh*te! I had to stop watching that. I KNOW it was making me dumber AND wasting my time.

Feral_and_Preposterous: Holy sh*te! I had to stop watching that. I KNOW it was making me dumber AND wasting my time.

And then you posted in a Fark religion thread. I guess you didn't learn your lesson.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

I remember being really really confused about the jesus thing as a kid. specifically, "why did jesus have to die for our sins? couldn't god just do something about or sins instead of letting his son die? wait, he didn't let him die, he made him die."

about the time I stared wondering about that I decided I'd rather sleep in on sundays.

I was tripped up very early on by the logical nonsense of the bible and about 80% of the things that occur in it, especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

Jews and Catholics both recognize most of the Old Testament, and especially Genesis to be allegories. Like Aesop's Fables.

planes: [www.global-air.com image 150x195]

French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that even though God may not exist, you should wager that he does, because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. (new window)

I find Pascal's wager offensive for two reasons:
1: It is an argument from fear.
2: It assumes that God is a complete moron who can't see into our hearts.

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

I remember being really really confused about the jesus thing as a kid. specifically, "why did jesus have to die for our sins? couldn't god just do something about or sins instead of letting his son die? wait, he didn't let him die, he made him die."

about the time I stared wondering about that I decided I'd rather sleep in on sundays.

I was tripped up very early on by the logical nonsense of the bible and about 80% of the things that occur in it, especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

Jews and Catholics both recognize most of the Old Testament, and especially Genesis to be allegories. Like Aesop's Fables.

Really? All of them?

Kid: do you have proof that god exists?
Db: yes!
Kid: describe it.
Db: how can you question god's existence if you don't know everything?
Kid: that's valid and I haven't asked you to disprove my evidence that god doesn't exist. What is your evidence that god exists?
Db: look at it this way: if my beliefs are true and god is the source of everything, then your own existence is proof that god exists. Now tell me how my theory works without the existence of god.
Kid: that line of reasoning is circular and common among Christians.

Ed Grubermann: planes: [www.global-air.com image 150x195]

French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that even though God may not exist, you should wager that he does, because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. (new window)

I find Pascal's wager offensive for two reasons:
1: It is an argument from fear.
2: It assumes that God is a complete moron who can't see into our hearts.

Ahh but of God really CAN'T see into our hearts (maybe he's only semipotent?) then it sounds like a pretty sweet argument

Feral_and_Preposterous: Holy sh*te! I had to stop watching that. I KNOW it was making me dumber AND wasting my time.

What, fark? Yeah. *sigh*

The All-Powerful Atheismo: especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

Genesis and Exodus were just "stories" to me. I never, even as a kid, took them to be literal. at least I don't remember doing so.

but my family was never very religious. I was the only one who went to the church down the block as a kid. and even then it was only for about a year I think.

ciberido: DisregardTheFollowing: I find it very interesting that you pointed out that the Bible implies the existence of other gods. I've clearly got more reading to do. I did not know about the famous "problem of evil". Does that mean I can't turn a profit/Prophet for arriving at that theory independently?

Well, it's debated, but:

The Bible Confirms Other Gods

Other Gods

How Many Gods Does God Say There Are?

These are some of the arguments for and against.

All that those scriptures say to me is that the pop culture God worshiped today is every bit as imaginary as any other god that has been worshiped throughout history. The Bible dismissing every other god just makes the argument that there is no God stronger.

Gyrfalcon: Arguing with a religious person who insists there is a god because they know there is a god will get you exactly nowhere. However, arguing with a non-religious person who insists there is no god because they know there is no god will get you exactly the same place. And that's pretty much where this thread will end up. At the end of the day it DOES NOT MATTER if there is a god or there is not a god; what DOES matter, however, is how people react when challenged about the existence or non-existence of a deity.

There are and have always been people who accept the existence of a god and yet have drilled down to the finest points of science; there have been and are people who insist there is no god at all and yet behave as if some unknown force was driving them on as devoutly as if they believed in Jehovah. Atheism is not a prerequisite for hard-edged science and rationality; nor is religiousness a bar to scientific inquiry and skepticism. But the way people have been carrying on lately, it's going to become that way. Blindly rejecting religious thought simply BECAUSE it is religious is no more "open minded" than blindly rejecting scientific thought for the same reason.

Gregor Mendel was a monk. So was Roger Bacon. So was Martin Luther. Darwin got his start as a Unitarian preacher. It's not the god part that makes people bad thinkers; it's whether or not they can accept the idea that there are other ways of thinking. And that's not unique to religion.

Thank you for distilling the essence of what I've been trying to say on Fark all evening.. that is all.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Hilarious. "Argue with me or you're wrong."

fark off.

Wow, now I'm convinced you're an idiot.

You couldn't make an argument to support your statement.

When people make odd statements in threads, I am legitimately interested in why they believe that and especially why they would shiat it in a thread that had nothing to do with the thread.

So go fark yourself or stop threadshiatting with your bullshiat political statements that: have nothing to do with the thread; and that you cannot muster a single argument to support.

HBK: Jews and Catholics both recognize most of the Old Testament, and especially Genesis to be allegories. Like Aesop's Fables

It's funny how the number of allegories expand along with scientific knowledge.

Just imagine if it was discovered that the world really is6000 years old and created in six days.
Would these "allegory" people be all, "Damn. I really thought that was an allegory! Now I'll have to revise my beliefs!" Or would they all say, "See! The Word of God TRUE!"

I think we all know the answer is that it will never be discovered that the world really is 6000 years old. But just for fun, try to imagine.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Feral_and_Preposterous: Holy sh*te! I had to stop watching that. I KNOW it was making me dumber AND wasting my time.

And then you posted in a Fark religion thread. I guess you didn't learn your lesson.

No, this is only a waste of time. From time to time I do learn things here. And the flames amuse me. If some Farker would have been there laying into that guy I think I would have watched it twice.

log_jammin: The All-Powerful Atheismo: especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

Genesis and Exodus were just "stories" to me. I never, even as a kid, took them to be literal. at least I don't remember doing so.

but my family was never very religious. I was the only one who went to the church down the block as a kid. and even then it was only for about a year I think.

If only the inanity stopped in those two books.
Logical absurdity abounds. Then one might well say "well they are just allegories" to which I would say, if you reduce everything in the book relating to god to an allegory or a moral, then that implies that there is no god, just stories about god. Which is fine, but then I could write a book about a magical fairy named Biggles who says "just be nice to each other" and it would be just as true as the bible.

log_jammin: Genesis and Exodus were just "stories" to me. I never, even as a kid, took them to be literal. at least I don't remember doing so.

Yeah, taking much of the bible literally is like trying to take Aesop's fables literally. If you listen to a fable and come away thinking, "But wait, that's not logical. Foxes can't talk", then the entire point had probably passed far over your head.

Once I understand 2+2=4, I no longer have to believe 2+2=4.

Once I understand 2+2=4, it is impossible for me to believe 2+2=5, regardless of the source, the peer pressure, the emotional and social torture, or whatever else you want to use to make me believe it.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo: log_jammin: DisregardTheFollowing: It's late, and I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure that under opposite circumstances, that still would have blown my mind.
That line of reasoning leads me to wonder why we do not worship Judas. If it wasn't for that guy, our Savior wouldn't have been provided the opportunity to die for my sins. It wasn't his fault anyway. As soon as he ate the morsel Jesus gave him, the devil entered him. Why did Jesus feed him the devil?

I remember being really really confused about the jesus thing as a kid. specifically, "why did jesus have to die for our sins? couldn't god just do something about or sins instead of letting his son die? wait, he didn't let him die, he made him die."

about the time I stared wondering about that I decided I'd rather sleep in on sundays.

I was tripped up very early on by the logical nonsense of the bible and about 80% of the things that occur in it, especially in Genesis and Exodus. And yes I was forced to go to sunday school as a kid.

Jews and Catholics both recognize most of the Old Testament, and especially Genesis to be allegories. Like Aesop's Fables.

Really? All of them?

All of what?

All of the Jews? I have no idea. All of the Catholics? Then yes, if they are true Catholics.

All of the stories? Then no. Catholic dogma does back some of its stupid rules on the Old Testament- such as the anti-gay stuff and the anti-Onanism thing. But as far as Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, etc., the Catholics don't believe that actually happened.

HBK: The All-Powerful Atheismo:
Jews and Catholics both recognize most of the Old Testament, and especially Genesis to be allegories. Like Aesop's Fables.

Only when it's convenient. Prophesies of the Christ seem to be taken very literally.

Not a bible thumper here.

but in fairness he is describing "super essential darkness" described by the philosopher and theologian Dionysius. But as usual this idiot gets it wrong since as described it is only applicable to the argument "is there a god" or "what is god". I won't go into the logic of the argument because it makes absolutely no sense trying to apply it to the physical world. Which you can tell from this video

planes: [www.global-air.com image 150x195]

French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that even though God may not exist, you should wager that he does, because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. (new window)

Man, Jupiter's gonna be pissed off that Blaise didn't include him as an option.

HBK: Wow, now I'm convinced you're an idiot.

no, you're just a douchebag and I choose not to argue with you.

it was intended to be biting, and it was hardly pointless. not my fault you disagree with it.

You couldn't make an argument to support your statement.

you are deliberately mistaking the fact that I choose not to argue with you about it with the sophomoric insinuation that I "can't".

When people make odd statements in threads, I am legitimately interested in why they believe that and especially why they would shiat it in a thread that had nothing to do with the thread.

oh so it's just an "odd" statement (despite the fact that it's rather mainstream among conservatives and liberals, and I used the word TEND) and you're interested. Fine.

So go fark yourself or stop threadshiatting with your bullshiat political statements that: have nothing to do with the thread; and that you cannot muster a single argument to support.

Oh so you're NOT just interested, because apparently it's "bullshiat". So you lied about your intentions. And you repeat the juvenile assertion that because I choose NOT to bring the argument into the thread... which you are trying to do... that I am incapable of doing so.

I repeat. fark off.

j0ndas: The correct answer is that there's no scientific proof for God. You can say that it's scientifically impossible for life to evolve through random chance - because the odds are something like 1 over 10 to the 4000th power, or in other words, 1 over infinity - but God still has to be believed in, if for no other reason than you can't be sure -whose- God created things. The God of Christianity is massively different from the God of Islam, for instance. The "Jesus" of Islam is more or less identical to the Antichrist of Christianity.

Atheism, incidently, is a religion too. It's a just a religion that replaces God with self. Atheists are some of the least tolerant people there are when it comes to other religions, and atheist nations have historically killed more people than all religious wars combined.

Bald, incidentally, is a hair color.

j0ndas: The correct answer is that there's no scientific proof for God. You can say that it's scientifically impossible for life to evolve through random chance - because the odds are something like 1 over 10 to the 4000th power, or in other words, 1 over infinity - but God still has to be believed in, if for no other reason than you can't be sure -whose- God created things. The God of Christianity is massively different from the God of Islam, for instance. The "Jesus" of Islam is more or less identical to the Antichrist of Christianity.

Atheism, incidently, is a religion too. It's a just a religion that replaces God with self. Atheists are some of the least tolerant people there are when it comes to other religions, and atheist nations have historically killed more people than all religious wars combined.

Which atheist nation would that be?

/or did you pull all that out your ass

Benevolent Misanthrope: What the god-pushing f*ckwit was trying to express is a fundamentally held belief among Christians who have examined their faith: You cannot prove god, but you cannot know anything unless it is revealed to you by god. Even if you don't acknowledge god's existence, god exists because if he didn't you wouldn't be sentient.

Circular reasoning at its best. And this guy can't even express his own flawed reasoning. Probably because he's perfectly content living an unexamined life.

Why is it that when I disagree with a fundie they always start talking in a certain tone of voice that tries to convey excitement of their beliefs?

The All-Powerful Atheismo: HBK: Wow, now I'm convinced you're an idiot.

no, you're just a douchebag and I choose not to argue with you.

But yet you persist.

it was intended to be biting, and it was hardly pointless. not my fault you disagree with it.

I never said whether or not I agreed with it. I merely asked you to support it.

You couldn't make an argument to support your statement.

you are deliberately mistaking the fact that I choose not to argue with you about it with the sophomoric insinuation that I "can't".

Well sure, I can fly and have sex with Jessica Alba at the same time, but I won't because I don't need to support my claims.

When people make odd statements in threads, I am legitimately interested in why they believe that and especially why they would shiat it in a thread that had nothing to do with the thread.

oh so it's just an "odd" statement (despite the fact that it's rather mainstream among conservatives and liberals, and I used the word TEND) and you're interested. Fine.

It was "odd" because it was in queer in context. To dumb it down for you, it was strange that you would make a political statement that was wholly unrelated to the thread

So go fark yourself or stop threadshiatting with your bullshiat political statements that: have nothing to do with the thread; and that you cannot muster a single argument to support.

Oh so you're NOT just interested, because apparently it's "bullshiat". So you lied about your intentions. And you repeat the juvenile assertion that because I choose NOT to bring the argument into the thread... which you are trying to do... that I am incapable of doing so.

It's bullshiat because you made a treadshiatting statement and failed to support it. If someone makes a bald claim and fails to support it, I call bullshiat.

I repeat. fark off.

Right back at you, buddy.

Gyrfalcon: Arguing with a religious person who insists there is a god because they know there is a god will get you exactly nowhere. However, arguing with a non-religious person who insists there is no god because they know there is no god will get you exactly the same place. And that's pretty much where this thread will end up. At the end of the day it DOES NOT MATTER if there is a god or there is not a god; what DOES matter, however, is how people react when challenged about the existence or non-existence of a deity.

The issue, in my opinion, is that some people (and it's usually the religious fascist nutjobs) want to prove that their "faith" is based in objective fact. I've never seen an atheist use objective fact to prove that no "god" exists. And in the case of the kid in this video there was the question: "do you have proof?" and the answer was total bullshiat.

I don't need to prove to you that I have justification for believing you're a crazy, lying piece of shiat. I just need to top trusting anything you say. Then I'm done.

What a douche to keep bringing up the kid's father instead of simply speaking to the kid.
Then he smugly crows at the end, when thinks he's won some point by trying to wedge the kid's argument from his father's. What an utter dick.

SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

I realize that in this case, you are probably just trolling, but the sick thing is that one does occasionally meet people who really do take comfort in statements like that.

Even in the cases of people who are upset by the idea that other people could suffer eternal damnation, and therefore they try to "save" them... It's bizarre to me that anyone could be comfortable believing in the idea of a "just" god who would roast people for eternity for not accepting his existence. What a bizarrely narcissistic, unmerciful God that would have to be. (I'm reminded of the portrayal of God in the Preacher comics as a deity desperately craving the adoration of his most wretched creations.)

sonorangal: Why is it that when I disagree with a fundie they always start talking in a certain tone of voice that tries to convey excitement of their beliefs?

weird...I've noticed that too.

Isildur: What a douche to keep bringing up the kid's father instead of simply speaking to the kid.
Then he smugly crows at the end, when thinks he's won some point by trying to wedge the kid's argument from his father's. What an utter dick.

That was really annoying. Instead of addressing the argument he implied the kid was parroting his dad's beliefs, but never addressed those points.

Religious (Or theist) folks are known to have crises of faith... do atheists and agnostics have crises of disbelief?

0z79: Ed Finnerty: If God doesn't exist, who is making me type this?

Not a soul except you.

But of course, I'm crazy enough to believe that God created us because He got sick of being surrounded by yes-men that He created and imbued with conscience but no free will, so....

....

Us.

1) How does time exist for an infinite entity like God?

2) If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he see his boredom coming and just not create the yes-men in the first place?

Pitabred: 1) How does time exist for an infinite entity like God?

2) If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he see his boredom coming and just not create the yes-men in the first place?

1. If god is omnipotent, he doesn't need "time"

2. Maybe he did see his boredom coming , but figured he'd deal with it later because he was currently busy with something else, like say, the production of yes-men.

HoratioGates: Scientists are not out to prove there is no god, rather they are out to find scientific explanations for everything. Either god is beyond the rules of science and they will never figure him out, or he isn't, in which case scientists will explain him, or he doesn't exist.

I agree, although I'd phrase it a little differently.
Instead of conjecturing whether he is beyond the "rules of science", the real question is, "does he have any effect on the observable universe?" If he does, it can conceivably be measured. If not, he is consigned to irrelevance since he is unable to do anything that might affect us (in which case he can hardly be called "God").

There is still the cop-out idea of god having created the natural laws and set them in motion like some giant cosmic Rube Goldberg machine. In this case, though, god is indistinguishable from the Big Bang and is certainly not the same God that stopped the sun in the sky, and impregnated some girl with his son, and that appeared on a slice of toast or whatever other 'miracles' people attributed to him. He doesn't answer prayers or care if you go to church on Sunday, either ;after all, his job was done a long time ago.

Yogimus: Religious (Or theist) folks are known to have crises of faith... do atheists and agnostics have crises of disbelief?

No, but I'm willing to try.
What have you got that might cause it?

Yogimus: Religious (Or theist) folks are known to have crises of faith... do atheists and agnostics have crises of disbelief?

Oh, and one more thing.
Finding out that you were wrong on this subject, for me anyway, wouldn't cause a crisis. It would be FARKING FASCINATING!

Tony_Pepperoni: [i.imgur.com image 850x481]

No no! He's not SAYING it's aliens.... but it's aliens....

Isildur: SevenizGud: Even more awkward will be when the little shiat descends to hell to burn in agony for all eternity.

I realize that in this case, you are probably just trolling

Sevenizgud, trolling? Unpossible!

HBK: Catholics get a bad rap for the child rapes

When you say they get a bad rap are you saying they did not rape the children or that they did rape the children and we should just excuse them?

Either position makes you a douche. Please backpedal like the guy in TFA and try to explain your meaning.

Religion is so funny. What's hysterical, in my opinion, is that mortal beings such as ourselves believe we can understand the thoughts and feelings of a God. An omnipotent being that knows the exact location of every single atom in existence in billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and celestial bodies. A being who knows the exact temperatures, pressure differences, atmospheric conditions, atomic components, and potential/kinetic energy ratios of every atom of existence. Then people say "God wants _______." Laughable.

As soon as I meet a person who can keep track of all of this information at the same time, and can tell me WHY every rule of science functions the way it does (we know how, but not why), then I will say we have a chance of understanding the thoughts and feelings of a God. Until then, throw your Bibles and Korans and Buddhist scripture away. Those books assume humans can understand divine intellect.

A lot of self proclaimed atheists, myself included, only care in a couple of circumstances:

1. Science/logic is called lies, or science/logic is twisted into a lie(and no longer logical or science). No, rain is not gods tears, and thunder is not his anger..Teaching ignorance does no one any favors, and can indeed be very harmful.
2. Religion tries to force it self on people of other religions, or people who are not religious. Also included here are the religious that try to punish/exclude/ or trample the rights of those other groups.

Unfortunately, that happens a lot. With modern communication and the internet, we see more and more all of the time. Can't say there is more frequency, but it's more out in the open and bandied about.

______________________________________

When I say "There is no god" it's shorthand for a multitude of different things. I'm not a firm dis-believer, and any rational person will not pedantically jump to that conclusion. There is an inherant meaning in almost everything we say, "I could be wrong" or " I may be lacking information that is currently not available, and may never be".

Nothing is wrong with an atheist that chooses to forgo constant backpedalling as such. It's pretty much the default stance of an atheist.

Sure, you have your active dis-believers that pretend certain knowledge, but they're actually fairly rare. May not sound like it to a pedant misanthrope, but it is. Along with that goes the disclaimer, some atheists are not self aware, and shoot off at the mouth, not deficient much, but not into really examining what is / can be known)

The rest of us are merely readying a bet, but keeping a keen eye on up to the second statistics and odds.

A vast majority of self proclaimed atheists, are actually agnostic. We say atheist, because many agnostics can lead very religious lives. It's a concept in imagery beyond mere definition. The collective of what society sees in those words.

Annoying subterfuge sometimes, and sometimes just OCD like compulsion to categorize, whichever, it's annoying and not productive in the least.

Refer to the top of my post:

Most of the time a non-religious person joins an argument, it's because a religious person made a claim that was false, or a logic that was forced and hammered into sounding good the the uneducated but that was totally irrational, or something of the sort. #1 in my list.

Getting too pedantic in this case, for whatever reason, is just as bad for the conversation at hand. Much like stepping on someone's foot, sometimes it's on purpose, other times it's due to people being unaware of what's going on. Muddying the waters, and all sides do it. Conflating the off hand comment to mean a christian/atheist is a firm (un)believer with no evidence and is delusional, etc.

It gets old, Fark.
Will you ever learn?

You're not helping . JPG

/sigh
//just throwing it out there, a token effort if you will

HBK: We had a PhD. AP biology teacher. He told us on the first day of class "the more I learn about biology, the more certain I am that God exists." He went on to discuss the intricacies of the human eye and how unlikely it is that it would form without some guidance.

PhD or not, he isn't very good at evolutionary biology if he buys that whole "irreducible complexity" BS. The evolution of the eye is well documented, and in fact it evolved independently in many, many different species in a variety of different ways.

dready zim: When you say they get a bad rap are you saying

He's saying they were gifted with a live rendition of Ice Ice Baby by none other than Vanilla Ice.