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(ZDNet)   Refusing to wear a RFID-chipped badge? That's an expulsion   (zdnet.com) divider line 175
    More: Asinine, RFID, Rutherford Institute, tenth grade, surveillance state, badges, bar codes  
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7492 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Nov 2012 at 9:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-21 08:25:35 AM
Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."
 
2012-11-21 09:00:45 AM
This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.
 
2012-11-21 09:06:18 AM
"In the event that you change your stance on wearing the ID with the battery and chip removed as has been offered to you on two occasions, we will be more than willing to rescind this withdrawal notice."

Attention Whore.

/My interest, done.
 
2012-11-21 09:26:01 AM
according to Infowars.

WTF?
 
2012-11-21 09:31:10 AM
Refusing to wear a RFID-chipped badge? Ok we'll be reasonable, will you wear a badge that doesn't have one? That's an expulsion 

FTFY subby.

/Stupid idea nonetheless
//Let the helicopter parents track their own kids
 
2012-11-21 09:32:02 AM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."


the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-11-21 09:33:31 AM
Are expelled kids in Texas freed from school obligations, or do they have to move on to another school, and another school, and another... ?
 
2012-11-21 09:34:25 AM

serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.


It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.
 
2012-11-21 09:40:17 AM
And yet the parents expect you to be able to locate their kid and have them delivered to the office in two minutes if they show up at any time of the day without notice - - - failure to do so results (often) in the parent pitching a fit that they're in a hurry and running late for (doctor, dentist, funeral etc.)
 
2012-11-21 09:42:47 AM

DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.

It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^


Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.
 
2012-11-21 09:48:39 AM

Weaver95: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.


The worst thing we ever did as a society was conflate people with capital. Turning "personnel" into "human resources." Describing "human capital" as livestock that can be discarded. Looking at children not as potential greatness but as potential malcontents that must be regulated and tracked with more diligence than prisons track criminals.

This is a symptom of a much larger problem in education and treatment of children. This might be a CSB, but if I graduated a few years later than I did, I might not have graduated at all. When I was finishing school, the school was still getting used to helicopter parents and paranoia about Columbine. I was a malcontent at times. I was a stereotypical nerd, argumentative in English class, more than a little of my head up my ass, but a good student with a small clique of friends and a bullying problem that lasted into my sophomore year. I was suspended a few times for fighting. In one case, I flipped out during gym class and turned a shoving match into a head butt and broken nose that got me suspended for two days. This was just around the time of Columbine, and considering my attitude and actions, there's every chance that if my behavior was seen a few months or a few years later, I would have been expelled or even arrested.

I hear stories about how the schools have changed since I graduated. Small steps at first, but then metal detectors, more surveillance, more strict rules.
 
2012-11-21 09:52:00 AM

Bloody William: I hear stories about how the schools have changed since I graduated. Small steps at first, but then metal detectors, more surveillance, more strict rules.


You have to justify larger budgets somehow.
 
2012-11-21 09:52:58 AM

Weaver95: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.


Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work? Want to 'escape' the terrible US without using your RFID enabled passports? RFID is not magic. It is just an updated method for computers to read the contents of whatever is placed on them, just like your magnetic strip on your credit card, driver's license, passport, old school badges. Yes they can be read without actual contact, so that is reason to see what they are storing on the chip itself. If, as the article suggests, it is just a student ID or other serialized number, that is linked in the central computer system, to their other information, big whoop. If it is actually storing SSN and other vital information (doubtful) on the RFID itself, that is a problem.
 
2012-11-21 09:53:53 AM

Raharu: DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.

It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.


That did kind of stick out to me. RFID would work if there are sensors around the school, logging student activity (which is skeevy, but not a student-tracking system outside the school). It's total bullshiat, but not black helicopter level bullshiat. Just usual district overreaching in trying to find and crush any sort of sense of freedom within what amount to modern, mandatory juvenile halls at this point.
 
2012-11-21 09:55:57 AM

the_geek: Bloody William: I hear stories about how the schools have changed since I graduated. Small steps at first, but then metal detectors, more surveillance, more strict rules.

You have to justify larger budgets somehow.


there's evidence enough to suggest that our culture is turning inwards, becoming more afraid and authoritarian than ever before. I never thought I'd live in a country where someone had to feel me up before I could board a plane. schools that make kids wear RFID chips and use inventory control software to track their movements implies a certain mindset.
 
2012-11-21 09:56:16 AM
She should probably have more worried about the camera in the ID office stealing her soul.
 
2012-11-21 09:56:27 AM

Raharu:

Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.


As someone who works with all of the above, a hearty THIS to you, sir.

/yes, I am getting a kick...
 
2012-11-21 09:56:40 AM

wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work? Want to 'escape' the terrible US without using your RFID enabled passports? RFID is not magic. It is just an updated method for computers to read the contents of whatever is placed on them, just like your magnetic strip on your credit card, driver's license, passport, old school badges. Yes they can be read without actual contact, so that is reason to see what they are storing on the chip itself. If, as the article suggests, it is just a student ID or other serialized number, that is linked in the central computer system, to their other information, big whoop. If it is actually storing SSN and other vital information (doubtful) on the RFID itself, that is a problem.


Work is private, compensated, optional (relatively speaking), and can justify its security measures clearly. It isn't about the actual tracking, but the creeping sense of needing to be tagged and measured. It's the electronic version of being forced to have papers on you at all times.

There's a very big difference in attitude between using a card to get into places and being forced to keep a card on hand at all times so other people know where you are.
 
2012-11-21 09:59:21 AM

Weaver95: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.


This.

/sheltered
 
2012-11-21 09:59:27 AM

JinxofSpades: Raharu:

Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.

As someone who works with all of the above, a hearty THIS to you, sir.

/yes, I am getting a kick...


Weaver95: there's evidence enough to suggest that our culture is turning inwards, becoming more afraid and authoritarian than ever before. I never thought I'd live in a country where someone had to feel me up before I could board a plane. schools that make kids wear RFID chips and use inventory control software to track their movements implies a certain mindset.


The technical aspects don't worry me in this case, but the implication and creeping sense of oppression without merit is the problem. How much more creep will we accept before kids are completely dehumanized and turned into drones, with the few who resist being simply thrown out?
 
2012-11-21 10:00:40 AM

Bloody William:

There's a very big difference in attitude between using a card to get into places and being forced to keep a card on hand at all times so other people know where you are.


This card is only needed to be used to get into one place, school, essentially the child's place of work. They don't it, or an other form of identification, once they are off school grounds. If having any ID is the problem, RFID is not the issue.
 
2012-11-21 10:01:51 AM

Bloody William: Weaver95: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.

The worst thing we ever did as a society was conflate people with capital. Turning "personnel" into "human resources." Describing "human capital" as livestock that can be discarded. Looking at children not as potential greatness but as potential malcontents that must be regulated and tracked with more diligence than prisons track criminals......


THIS
 
2012-11-21 10:02:25 AM

wingnut396:

Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work? Want to 'escape' the terrible US without using your RFID enabled passports? RFID is not magic. It is just an updated method for computers to read the contents of whatever is placed on them, just like your magnetic strip on your credit card, driver's license, passport, old school badges. Yes they can be read without actual contact, so that is reason to see what they are storing on the chip itself. If, as the article suggests, it is just a student ID or other serialized number, that is linked in the central computer system, to their other information, big whoop. If it is actually storing SSN and other vital information (doubtful) on the RFID itself, that is a problem.


I tend to see RFID as a crutch. sure, it's good for tracking inventory...but you start using it on people and it goes off the rails. for starters - most RFID isn't even encrypted. I scanned my badge once, and the data wasn't encoded. I could have cloned that badge and the badges of my coworkers no problem. would have given me unlimited access to the facilities even AFTER the layoffs. my point is that boxes of inventory don't get curious and take apart the security to see what makes it tick. people can and sometimes do. so if you were expecting RFID to be some sort of magical perfect way of keeping track of a population (be that in a school or office) then I've got some bad news for you....
 
2012-11-21 10:03:09 AM

Bloody William: wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work? Want to 'escape' the terrible US without using your RFID enabled passports? RFID is not magic. It is just an updated method for computers to read the contents of whatever is placed on them, just like your magnetic strip on your credit card, driver's license, passport, old school badges. Yes they can be read without actual contact, so that is reason to see what they are storing on the chip itself. If, as the article suggests, it is just a student ID or other serialized number, that is linked in the central computer system, to their other information, big whoop. If it is actually storing SSN and other vital information (doubtful) on the RFID itself, that is a problem.

Work is private, compensated, optional (relatively speaking), and can justify its security measures clearly. It isn't about the actual tracking, but the creeping sense of needing to be tagged and measured. It's the electronic version of being forced to have papers on you at all times.

There's a very big difference in attitude between using a card to get into places and being forced to keep a card on hand at all times so other people know where you are.


There is a difference. IBM required us to have our badges visible at all times; they were for more than opening doors. MindSpring, however, issued us a little keychain fob for getting into the building -- but that was in the late 90s.
 
2012-11-21 10:03:28 AM

Weaver95: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

the point about tracking children like inventory is well made though. we tell kids that this is the 'land of the free/home of the brave' yet we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed, tracked, numbered and filed? you don't spend your childhood being a number then suddenly BAM! 18 hits and you act like a perfectly normal human being who can function without being controlled? I don't think so. you raise a kid with blinders on, and it will take a VERY long time to him to figure out how to take them off.


Sure Weaver and when teachers took attendance in the morning in the sixties it meant the communists had already won.
 
2012-11-21 10:04:40 AM

hinten:
Sure Weaver and when teachers took attendance in the morning in the sixties it meant the communists had already won.


I am wracking my brains trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about....
 
2012-11-21 10:05:12 AM
WAIT!

They offered her, repeatedly, a badge that did not have the RFID chip inside of it and could not be tracked beyond the door mechanisms that read the barcode/magstripe.

Ok, so if they are happy to let one student opt-out of this 'safety' system then why not allow all of the students, who you are trying to bring up to be good citizens in the 'land of the free' to opt-out of the system if they so choose?

Once you've got all the forms back you know how many RFID enabled badges you need... and how many you need to put in the microwave for a few seconds.
 
2012-11-21 10:05:53 AM

Weaver95: I tend to see RFID as a crutch. sure, it's good for tracking inventory...but you start using it on people and it goes off the rails. for starters - most RFID isn't even encrypted. I scanned my badge once, and the data wasn't encoded. I could have cloned that badge and the badges of my coworkers no problem. would have given me unlimited access to the facilities even AFTER the layoffs. my point is that boxes of inventory don't get curious and take apart the security to see what makes it tick. people can and sometimes do. so if you were expecting RFID to be some sort of magical perfect way of keeping track of a population (be that in a school or office) then I've got some bad news for you....


RFID can be hacked to shiat with some pretty cheap tech. I'd love to see students at this school steal a teacher or janitor's card (or just bribe them to borrow it) and copy the ID tag, encode it on an RFID sticker, and slap it over their card.
 
2012-11-21 10:06:54 AM

Vaneshi: WAIT!

They offered her, repeatedly, a badge that did not have the RFID chip inside of it and could not be tracked beyond the door mechanisms that read the barcode/magstripe.

Ok, so if they are happy to let one student opt-out of this 'safety' system then why not allow all of the students, who you are trying to bring up to be good citizens in the 'land of the free' to opt-out of the system if they so choose?

Once you've got all the forms back you know how many RFID enabled badges you need... and how many you need to put in the microwave for a few seconds.


It's a pretty clear techno-boondoggle with little to no value at all.
 
2012-11-21 10:07:44 AM

Bloody William: Weaver95: I tend to see RFID as a crutch. sure, it's good for tracking inventory...but you start using it on people and it goes off the rails. for starters - most RFID isn't even encrypted. I scanned my badge once, and the data wasn't encoded. I could have cloned that badge and the badges of my coworkers no problem. would have given me unlimited access to the facilities even AFTER the layoffs. my point is that boxes of inventory don't get curious and take apart the security to see what makes it tick. people can and sometimes do. so if you were expecting RFID to be some sort of magical perfect way of keeping track of a population (be that in a school or office) then I've got some bad news for you....

RFID can be hacked to shiat with some pretty cheap tech. I'd love to see students at this school steal a teacher or janitor's card (or just bribe them to borrow it) and copy the ID tag, encode it on an RFID sticker, and slap it over their card.


its not even all that difficult or expensive. you could do it for under $200 if you wanted to go cheap. $500 and it starts getting fancy. there are tutorials all around the net on how to capture and clone RFID signals.
 
2012-11-21 10:08:30 AM

Raharu: DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.

It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.


As a programmer/analyst and RF geek, along with experience in both bar-code and RFID technology, I have a pretty damned good understanding of how they work.

I wouldn't want my kid to wear one, and I'd fully support their decision not to be required to wear an RFID badge.

The point that Weaver95 made above is a good one: You can't raise independent minded adults by treating them like cattle all their lives. Someone who is accustomed to wearing an RFID badge through years of mandatory schooling isn't going to care as much if that becomes a requirement for the citizenry in general.

Note that is distinct from wearing one as a condition for something like building access at work: Work is a voluntary activity. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID badge at work, you can always find other work, go into business for yourself, or just not work if you don't want to.

This general idea is why I'm also against metal detectors in schools, which is a perennial source of disagreement between the distaffbopper and I: She sees it from a narrow viewpoint, protecting individual kids from a possible threat. I see from a more expansive viewpoint, in that you are training kids who will one day be adults that persons in authority can violate the Fourth Amendment at will. And yes, I consider a metal detector in school a violation: You are required to attend school by law, and if the school you must attend requires that you to enter a metal detector as a condition for attending, then that is a violation. It's different for airports: Air travel is a voluntary activity, so consenting to a search can be made a condition of that travel, and there are generally other options (train, bus, car, etc.). Since by law you must attend schooling, and if the school requires that you enter a metal detector, there is no way to legally avoid the search.

Also, from the standpoint of preventing weapons from entering school, it's at best a very, very weak solution. I taught the 12 year old kid up the street how to knap glass into an effective blade/projectile point, and that won't show up in a metal detector. Neither would a carefully constructed zip gun.
 
2012-11-21 10:10:57 AM

wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work?


You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.
 
2012-11-21 10:11:39 AM
She should also be concerned about walking around on campus, anyway. Those cards are probably using 13.56MHz RFID, and will require the students to be constantly bombarded with high frequency waves, which do a very good job of passing through liquids and cell walls. However, they will rebound from metal, causing the waves to continuously penetrate the body, and may resonate the internal organs, including the brain. This can interfere with some electrical actviity in the brain, and some research indicates that if the brain resonation is the same in multiple brains, then the neural activity can be directed, much like current through a wire.
I suppose it would be possible to avoid the inductive field, if one were to block the incoming RF somehow. Some sort of metal protection would have to surround the brain. I'm not quite sure what that might look like.
 
2012-11-21 10:12:04 AM

Weaver95: Bloody William: Weaver95: I tend to see RFID as a crutch. sure, it's good for tracking inventory...but you start using it on people and it goes off the rails. for starters - most RFID isn't even encrypted. I scanned my badge once, and the data wasn't encoded. I could have cloned that badge and the badges of my coworkers no problem. would have given me unlimited access to the facilities even AFTER the layoffs. my point is that boxes of inventory don't get curious and take apart the security to see what makes it tick. people can and sometimes do. so if you were expecting RFID to be some sort of magical perfect way of keeping track of a population (be that in a school or office) then I've got some bad news for you....

RFID can be hacked to shiat with some pretty cheap tech. I'd love to see students at this school steal a teacher or janitor's card (or just bribe them to borrow it) and copy the ID tag, encode it on an RFID sticker, and slap it over their card.

its not even all that difficult or expensive. you could do it for under $200 if you wanted to go cheap. $500 and it starts getting fancy. there are tutorials all around the net on how to capture and clone RFID signals.


I bet I could "foil" it for just a penny or two.

/Get it?
 
2012-11-21 10:12:11 AM

Weaver95: hinten:
Sure Weaver and when teachers took attendance in the morning in the sixties it meant the communists had already won.

I am wracking my brains trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about....


The purpose of the badge program is tracking student attendance so the school can secure more funds for higher attendance rates. You know, kind of like teachers used to take attendance every morning using pen and paper.

Although the district will pay $500,000 up front for the program, is expects to garner $1.7 million from the state government in increased attendance funds.
 
2012-11-21 10:14:43 AM

hinten: Weaver95: hinten:
Sure Weaver and when teachers took attendance in the morning in the sixties it meant the communists had already won.

I am wracking my brains trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about....

The purpose of the badge program is tracking student attendance so the school can secure more funds for higher attendance rates. You know, kind of like teachers used to take attendance every morning using pen and paper.

Although the district will pay $500,000 up front for the program, is expects to garner $1.7 million from the state government in increased attendance funds.


Sounds like an expensive, oppressive solution to a cheap, simple problem.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:28 AM

hinten:
The purpose of the badge program is tracking student attendance so the school can secure more funds for higher attendance rates. You know, kind of like teachers used to take attendance every morning using pen and paper.


so why not just...take attendance with pen and paper? that's cheap. setting up and maintaining an RFID system is money up front, plus money for badges for each new class AND maintaining the integrity of the student/teacher RFID/user database. seems a pointless expense when you could just have kids attend home room for 15 min at the start of the day, take attendance and then go about the day as per normal.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:36 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work?

You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.


I always thought it was because they didn't want their kids to end up as socially-awkward weirdos
 
2012-11-21 10:16:53 AM

dittybopper: You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.


Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Therefore going to school is not mandatory.
 
2012-11-21 10:18:40 AM

Bloody William: It's a pretty clear techno-boondoggle with little to no value at all.


Well yeah, the students are already tracked via the magstripe and swipe system or barcode when they go to classes (I assume so anyway), so you can tell if a student is skipping class already.

But as I say they were willing to allow this one student to make an informed decision (or not) and opt-out. Why not just allow the students to exercise to some critical thinking skills and allow them all to opt-out if the so choose?

Seems like that would be a win-win as far as education is concerned. You just educated them to make informed decisions.
 
2012-11-21 10:20:49 AM

Bhruic: Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Therefore going to school is not mandatory.


But being in education IS mandatory. If a parent chooses to home school their child, then there will be occasional inspections to make sure that the curriculum is being taught (as well as whatever else a parent may add to it).

Sounds pretty fair to me.
 
2012-11-21 10:21:23 AM

Weaver95: hinten:
The purpose of the badge program is tracking student attendance so the school can secure more funds for higher attendance rates. You know, kind of like teachers used to take attendance every morning using pen and paper.

so why not just...take attendance with pen and paper? that's cheap. setting up and maintaining an RFID system is money up front, plus money for badges for each new class AND maintaining the integrity of the student/teacher RFID/user database. seems a pointless expense when you could just have kids attend home room for 15 min at the start of the day, take attendance and then go about the day as per normal.


Plus what is undoubtedly a 500% markup because the administration probably doesn't know any sort of commercial technology from its own asshole. Just a hunch. How big is the district that it needs half a million for door scanners and cards?
 
2012-11-21 10:21:45 AM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."


Unfortunately, the only card that can be played these days by students with ACLU backing is the "religious" option.
 
2012-11-21 10:21:53 AM
Sorry Luddites but the future is coming, RFID is not invasive.

When an RFID tagged school has a shooting and the police are able to tell if the kids are out of the building, or who is still trapped inside I think you may change your tune...

When something insane goes down at a factory, and the EMS crews need to know the last location of employees, or where to search for survivors or bodies I think this tech will show its value.

toot toot.

As long as RFID chips are not INSIDE you, its possible to ditch the tag... they even offered this chump an RFID free badge.
 
2012-11-21 10:22:54 AM

Vaneshi: Bhruic: Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Therefore going to school is not mandatory.

But being in education IS mandatory. If a parent chooses to home school their child, then there will be occasional inspections to make sure that the curriculum is being taught (as well as whatever else a parent may add to it).

Sounds pretty fair to me.


Sure, that's fine. My point was that if you (well, not you specifically, the general you) are going to say it's fine for businesses to use RFID because working there is "voluntary", then so is going to a specific school. You have options in schools. You can go to a private school that doesn't use RFID. You can homeschool. So if your only justification for not accepting them is "it's mandatory", then, we'll, you need to accept them because they aren't mandatory.
 
2012-11-21 10:24:59 AM

Bloody William: Weaver95: I tend to see RFID as a crutch. sure, it's good for tracking inventory...but you start using it on people and it goes off the rails. for starters - most RFID isn't even encrypted. I scanned my badge once, and the data wasn't encoded. I could have cloned that badge and the badges of my coworkers no problem. would have given me unlimited access to the facilities even AFTER the layoffs. my point is that boxes of inventory don't get curious and take apart the security to see what makes it tick. people can and sometimes do. so if you were expecting RFID to be some sort of magical perfect way of keeping track of a population (be that in a school or office) then I've got some bad news for you....

RFID can be hacked to shiat with some pretty cheap tech. I'd love to see students at this school steal a teacher or janitor's card (or just bribe them to borrow it) and copy the ID tag, encode it on an RFID sticker, and slap it over their card.


I agree with both of you RFID has some serious flaws, especially if implemented poorly. But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.
 
2012-11-21 10:25:40 AM

Weaver95: hinten:
The purpose of the badge program is tracking student attendance so the school can secure more funds for higher attendance rates. You know, kind of like teachers used to take attendance every morning using pen and paper.

so why not just...take attendance with pen and paper? that's cheap. setting up and maintaining an RFID system is money up front, plus money for badges for each new class AND maintaining the integrity of the student/teacher RFID/user database. seems a pointless expense when you could just have kids attend home room for 15 min at the start of the day, take attendance and then go about the day as per normal.


Who knows? I imagine they also secure their buildings with card readers, libraries, cafeteria, etc.
They should have called the program something different and only the craziest religious zealots that think wearing an ID is the sign of the devil would have complained. Wait, what?
Link

It's more than Fark, it's InfoWars.
 
2012-11-21 10:26:38 AM

Bloody William:
Plus what is undoubtedly a 500% markup because the administration probably doesn't know any sort of commercial technology from its own asshole. Just a hunch. How big is the district that it needs half a million for door scanners and cards?


Doesn't really strike me as unreasonable. The cards and readers, sure. But remember how many read choke points they are probably using- that's a lot of readers, especially if they are tracking direction of movement. Plus the software to drive the thing, the calibration, installation, etc. $500k is probably right for a decent sized school system.
 
2012-11-21 10:27:30 AM

JinxofSpades: She should also be concerned about walking around on campus, anyway. Those cards are probably using 13.56MHz RFID, and will require the students to be constantly bombarded with high frequency waves


They are already bombarded with 14.000 to 14.350 MHz waves, pretty much continuously. In fact, I'm bombarding people near me with 14.027 MHz waves right now, with an EIRP of about 250 watts.

CQ CQ CQ DE N2-SOMETHING-SOMETHING-SOMETHING
 
2012-11-21 10:27:39 AM
Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinkin' RFID badges!
 
2012-11-21 10:28:10 AM

JinxofSpades: Bloody William:
Plus what is undoubtedly a 500% markup because the administration probably doesn't know any sort of commercial technology from its own asshole. Just a hunch. How big is the district that it needs half a million for door scanners and cards?

Doesn't really strike me as unreasonable. The cards and readers, sure. But remember how many read choke points they are probably using- that's a lot of readers, especially if they are tracking direction of movement. Plus the software to drive the thing, the calibration, installation, etc. $500k is probably right for a decent sized school system.


Maybe. I keep thinking "I could cobble that together with $500 and stuff from dealextreme.com." Which, by the way, is awesome if you want weird Chinese electronics of dubious quality and legality.
 
2012-11-21 10:30:04 AM

hinten:

Who knows? I imagine they also secure their buildings with card readers, libraries, cafeteria, etc.
They should have called the program something different and only the craziest religious zealots that think wearing an ID is the sign of the devil would have complained. Wait, what?
Link

It's more than Fark, it's InfoWars.


again - you aren't justifying the associated costs very well. education budgets are already tight. why implement an expensive security system with well known flaws when there are cheaper (and less dehumanizing) alternatives?
 
2012-11-21 10:32:18 AM

Bloody William: JinxofSpades: Bloody William:

Maybe. I keep thinking "I could cobble that together with $500 and stuff from dealextreme.com." Which, by the way, is awesome if you want weird Chinese electronics of dubious quality and legality.


I know that feeling. :)
It actually makes me feel better to see a realistic budget on something like this. If the district spent $10k on a system like that, I can guarantee their accuracy would be shiat, and the project would be a failure.
 
2012-11-21 10:32:56 AM

Weaver95: hinten:

Who knows? I imagine they also secure their buildings with card readers, libraries, cafeteria, etc.
They should have called the program something different and only the craziest religious zealots that think wearing an ID is the sign of the devil would have complained. Wait, what?
Link

It's more than Fark, it's InfoWars.

again - you aren't justifying the associated costs very well. education budgets are already tight. why implement an expensive security system with well known flaws when there are cheaper (and less dehumanizing) alternatives?


Do you know how many decent computer labs you could make with that money? Hell, if the district has 2,000 students, that's enough to give everyone their own Chromebook.
 
2012-11-21 10:33:50 AM

Bhruic: dittybopper: You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.

Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Therefore going to school is not mandatory.


OK, don't school your kids. Meaning, don't send them to school, and don't home school them. Going to school is mandatory.

Homeschooling is a very narrow exception to the rule that you have to send your kids to either a government run or equivalent private school, and a narrow exception that very few can actually do. My sister-in-law homeschooled her daughter and son for a few years, and it was a caste-iron biatch. She was a stay-at-home mom so she had the time, but it was so difficult that they eventually gave up and sent the kids to a private school instead. When they did enter school they were initially bored because they were advanced compared to their privately-schooled peers, though.

As a very narrow exception, it's not one that the vast majority of people could take advantage of. That's like requiring going through a metal detector before you fly, take a train, bus, or drive your own car. Sure, you could walk, ride a bike, or take a motorcycle, but that's not an option for the vast majority, and I'm sure no one would seriously argue that you "have options" in that case.
 
2012-11-21 10:34:51 AM

Raharu: Sorry Luddites but the future is coming, RFID is not invasive.

When an RFID tagged school has a shooting and the police are able to tell if the kids are out of the building, or who is still trapped inside I think you may change your tune...

When something insane goes down at a factory, and the EMS crews need to know the last location of employees, or where to search for survivors or bodies I think this tech will show its value.

toot toot.

As long as RFID chips are not INSIDE you, its possible to ditch the tag... they even offered this chump an RFID free badge.


For the children, right?

/Luddites, really?
 
2012-11-21 10:35:43 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work?

You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.


So? Not everyone has the resources to go into business for themselves at the same rate they may earn at a place the requires them to wear a badge? Many States also now have RFID chips in the driver's licenses. Of course you are not REQUIRED to get one, but good luck moving around today's society with one.

Again, the root problem is not RFID. You complain that RFID is not very secure, which is mostly true. But I have feeling that if a 'magic' full secure analog to RFID was made, you would not be in support of it. I also take issue with the people worried that their kids will be tracked 'everywhere' with theses school IDs. That is a gross misunderstanding of how the technology works and conflating it with some biblical nonsense does no one any favors.

The root problem seems to be compliance with constant identification. I have sympathy for this issue and see that having to prove who you are and why you think you have the right to be somewhere is not always a good thing.
 
2012-11-21 10:36:47 AM
One day, we'll be required to have those chips installed under our skin if we want to drive a car, travel abroad, or even have health insurance.

Sure, the idea will creep people out as it's slowly unrolled on us...but since this is generally a less-than-bright country, everyone will eventually go along with it.

...You know, for SAFETY or something.

/I'll be in my bomb shelter.
 
2012-11-21 10:37:49 AM

dittybopper: JinxofSpades: She should also be concerned about walking around on campus, anyway. Those cards are probably using 13.56MHz RFID, and will require the students to be constantly bombarded with high frequency waves

They are already bombarded with 14.000 to 14.350 MHz waves, pretty much continuously. In fact, I'm bombarding people near me with 14.027 MHz waves right now, with an EIRP of about 250 watts.

CQ CQ CQ DE N2-SOMETHING-SOMETHING-SOMETHING


14.00 to 14.350, sure. But 13.56MHz, known in some circles as the "cancer frequency"...that's like a whole nother wave.
 
2012-11-21 10:38:31 AM

Weaver95: hinten:

Who knows? I imagine they also secure their buildings with card readers, libraries, cafeteria, etc.
They should have called the program something different and only the craziest religious zealots that think wearing an ID is the sign of the devil would have complained. Wait, what?
Link

It's more than Fark, it's InfoWars.

again - you aren't justifying the associated costs very well. education budgets are already tight. why implement an expensive security system with well known flaws when there are cheaper (and less dehumanizing) alternatives?


It's my job to justify the costs to you?
Listen, in my Boobies I stated that I understand the refusal to wear an RFID card by this student even if it was for the wrong reasons. You came in and went over the top with accusations of total mind control:
we shelve and warehouse 'em like they're boxes. how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society' when they spend their formative years being suppressed,
I came back and said, well, it's not really that crazy since RFID can be used just like an attendance list only more efficient and probably less error prone.
Now you want me to give you an ROI on this project?
 
2012-11-21 10:38:33 AM

dittybopper: You are required to attend school by law, and if the school you must attend requires that you to enter a metal detector as a condition for attending, then that is a violation


How do you feel about metal detectors in courthouses? People aren't going there voluntarily, whether they're there in police custody or just attending jury duty; but I think there's enough history of witnesses, judges, jurors being gunned down on courthouse steps (well, it happens all the time on TV anyhow) to say that maybe your 2nd and 4th amendments should be bent a little in that particular location.
 
2012-11-21 10:41:37 AM
Just wait til you get a load of my boobies.

BTW, the final project scope says 100,000 students across 112 schools.
 
2012-11-21 10:43:51 AM

wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.


The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".
 
2012-11-21 10:44:06 AM
WTF? Why do school kids need to wear security badges? Is it so that some can have access to the reactor controls or keys to the nuclear arsenal? Those are the only people who should be wearing security badges.
 
2012-11-21 10:47:07 AM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.


Well, it is Texas, so the "Mark of the Beast" excuse could actually gain some traction. If she were in Massachusetts, claiming that RF exposure causes cancer might be the way to go.
 
2012-11-21 10:49:08 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.

The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".


I'm pretty lax in my attitude towards security measures because I realize that any security measure can be compromised quickly, cheaply, or easily (pick two) by anyone with enough knowledge and dedication.
 
2012-11-21 10:49:46 AM

serial_crusher: dittybopper: You are required to attend school by law, and if the school you must attend requires that you to enter a metal detector as a condition for attending, then that is a violation

How do you feel about metal detectors in courthouses? People aren't going there voluntarily, whether they're there in police custody or just attending jury duty; but I think there's enough history of witnesses, judges, jurors being gunned down on courthouse steps (well, it happens all the time on TV anyhow) to say that maybe your 2nd and 4th amendments should be bent a little in that particular location.


With the exception of those who are under criminal indictment, which does temporarily suspend some of their rights, entrance into a court is strictly voluntary.

I know, because as a foster parent I attend court on a semi-regular basis. I've no problem going through the metal detector there, because it's voluntary for me and for all the employees and other witnesses, and it's a very narrow exception that is tailored to address a very specific governmental function.
 
2012-11-21 10:50:41 AM
usahitman.com
 
2012-11-21 10:52:27 AM

serial_crusher: I think there's enough history of witnesses, judges, jurors being gunned down on courthouse steps (well, it happens all the time on TV anyhow)


Metal detectors won't prevent anyone from gunning people down on the courthouse steps, since that is still outside. In fact, the easiest place to shoot people would be as they are waiting in line for the metal detector.

Seriously, though, Colorado had a spate of men shooting their wives' divorce lawyers inside courtrooms back in the eighties. Apparently you could walk into a courtroom "carrying" back then.
 
2012-11-21 10:54:02 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.

The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".


Or have a friend carry it.
 
2012-11-21 10:55:57 AM

dittybopper: I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil.


You sure? I tried wrapping a cell phone in aluminum foil as a demo of the fact that "there is no electrical field inside a conductor", but it still rang when called.

Hey, my browser tries to force the british spelling of "aluminium".
 
2012-11-21 10:55:58 AM

dittybopper: serial_crusher: dittybopper: You are required to attend school by law, and if the school you must attend requires that you to enter a metal detector as a condition for attending, then that is a violation

How do you feel about metal detectors in courthouses? People aren't going there voluntarily, whether they're there in police custody or just attending jury duty; but I think there's enough history of witnesses, judges, jurors being gunned down on courthouse steps (well, it happens all the time on TV anyhow) to say that maybe your 2nd and 4th amendments should be bent a little in that particular location.

With the exception of those who are under criminal indictment, which does temporarily suspend some of their rights, entrance into a court is strictly voluntary.

I know, because as a foster parent I attend court on a semi-regular basis. I've no problem going through the metal detector there, because it's voluntary for me and for all the employees and other witnesses, and it's a very narrow exception that is tailored to address a very specific governmental function.


Or jury duty, or subpoena, or court order, or i'm sure some internet lawyers could produce other examples when you are not under criminal indictment when you are order to appear in court.
 
2012-11-21 10:56:12 AM

hinten: Just wait til you get a load of my boobies.

BTW, the final project scope says 100,000 students across 112 schools.


kinda makes me think that someone on the school board has a relative who works for an RFID company...
 
2012-11-21 11:00:05 AM
This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

Jesus f*cking Christ, RFID DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

Look, if an institution wants you to wear RFID to track your location on premise, there's just not an issue. How is it any worse than taking attendance or checking in? They're not tracking you out in public.
 
2012-11-21 11:01:17 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.

The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".


So treating the kids like inventory is okay as long as you do it poorly and inefficiently?
 
2012-11-21 11:02:28 AM

hinten: Just wait til you get a load of my boobies.


EIP?
 
2012-11-21 11:04:35 AM
I didn't get to read all the comments, and I'm sure this was covered...

I'm not sure how they'd be tracked off-campus, but the fact they claim that would be reason to not want to keep these on my person outside of school.

In-School however, I see now issue with these being used. Perhaps they should make them be stored at their first class of the day and dropped off there at the end of the day too?
 
2012-11-21 11:08:02 AM

wingnut396: dittybopper: wingnut396: Whatever. Know what happens if I refuse to wear my RFID badge at work?

You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.

So? Not everyone has the resources to go into business for themselves at the same rate they may earn at a place the requires them to wear a badge?


You have a constitutional right to make $X dollars? A badge requirement as a condition for employment at a specific place of work isn't an infringement because you can always quit that employer. You can't always quit school.

Many States also now have RFID chips in the driver's licenses. Of course you are not REQUIRED to get one, but good luck moving around today's society with one.


That's only the "Enhanced Drivers License" version, which is an option for border crossings into Mexico or Canada without having a passport (Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative). I live in such a state that issues EDLs, and only the enhanced ones have the RFID chip. You don't have to get one. In fact, you have to provide more documentation and pay more money to get one. I don't have one.

Again, the root problem is not RFID. You complain that RFID is not very secure, which is mostly true. But I have feeling that if a 'magic' full secure analog to RFID was made, you would not be in support of it. I also take issue with the people worried that their kids will be tracked 'everywhere' with theses school IDs. That is a gross misunderstanding of how the technology works and conflating it with some biblical nonsense does no one any favors.


That is not my complaint. You must have me confused with someone else.

The root problem seems to be compliance with constant identification. I have sympathy for this issue and see that having to prove who you are and why you think you have the right to be somewhere is not always a good thing.


*THAT* is my complaint, at least as it pertains to school kids.

I've worked for employers that required RFID badges for access, probably before most of you knew what RFID was: When I worked in a SCIF back in the 1980's, you couldn't enter the classified portion of the facility without your badge. If you forgot it, you needed to have a superior verify who you were, and you had to be checked against a list of people permitted access.

Hell, even today, in order to get into the network operations center at my current employer I need to use a coded key fob and enter an individualized PIN just to unlock the door. That's a condition of my employment. I accept it, because it makes sense (access to the NOC should be limited) and because if I were to find it onerous, I can look for work elsewhere.

When I have a problem is when you are training young, impressionable students that people in authority tracking their movements is just a normal part of their everyday lives, and that they can be required to submit or face dire consequences. I submit that kids used to that sort of thing will be less likely to protest against such tracking as adults.
 
2012-11-21 11:09:00 AM
Why didn't he just put it in a microwave oven for 5 to 10 seconds to fry the chip? Works with passports, too.
 
2012-11-21 11:12:48 AM

pciszek: dittybopper: I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil.

You sure? I tried wrapping a cell phone in aluminum foil as a demo of the fact that "there is no electrical field inside a conductor", but it still rang when called.


I've done that very experiment. Phone didn't ring, and in fact I got a message saying the "person was unavailable", just like if they had been out of the service area.

Of course, being an RF guy, I made sure the phone was completely wrapped, with no gaps. Radio waves don't penetrate metal, they are reflected by it. If they weren't, then RADAR wouldn't work, and neither would antennas that rely on reflection of RF to increase gain (like those ubiquitous DISH Network antennas)
 
2012-11-21 11:15:48 AM

dittybopper: I've worked for employers that required RFID badges for access, probably before most of you knew what RFID was: When I worked in a SCIF back in the 1980's, you couldn't enter the classified portion of the facility without your badge.


I should point out that you had to wave your badge over a reader, and if you were allowed access, a green light would come on. If you had your access pulled, or the reader couldn't read your badge properly, it would light up red, and the MPs wouldn't let you pass.
 
2012-11-21 11:17:41 AM

wingnut396: dittybopper: serial_crusher: dittybopper: You are required to attend school by law, and if the school you must attend requires that you to enter a metal detector as a condition for attending, then that is a violation

How do you feel about metal detectors in courthouses? People aren't going there voluntarily, whether they're there in police custody or just attending jury duty; but I think there's enough history of witnesses, judges, jurors being gunned down on courthouse steps (well, it happens all the time on TV anyhow) to say that maybe your 2nd and 4th amendments should be bent a little in that particular location.

With the exception of those who are under criminal indictment, which does temporarily suspend some of their rights, entrance into a court is strictly voluntary.

I know, because as a foster parent I attend court on a semi-regular basis. I've no problem going through the metal detector there, because it's voluntary for me and for all the employees and other witnesses, and it's a very narrow exception that is tailored to address a very specific governmental function.

Or jury duty, or subpoena, or court order, or i'm sure some internet lawyers could produce other examples when you are not under criminal indictment when you are order to appear in court.


Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Really the important question here is whether or not I can use the metal detector as an excuse to get out of jury duty.
Getting me an answer before next Tuesday would be preferable...
 
2012-11-21 11:18:35 AM

wingnut396: dittybopper: wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.

The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".

So treating the kids like inventory is okay as long as you do it poorly and inefficiently?


No.

Having teachers take attendance is fundamentally different from tracking student movement via RFID.
 
2012-11-21 11:22:03 AM

dittybopper:

No.

Having teachers take attendance is fundamentally different from tracking student movement via RFID.


How so? Data collection is data collection.
 
2012-11-21 11:22:24 AM

dittybopper: wingnut396: But the point about tracking and inventorying children has little to do with RFID itself. This has been done for years already.

The difference is that before technological solutions like RFID, it was imperfect, spotty, and relatively easy to circumvent by any kid with an independent streak and a modicum of intelligence.

Thinking on it now, though, I can come up with a few low-tech ways to circumvent RFID. I'm betting I could even shake their faith in the system: By showing up where I am supposed to show up, but without the RFID sensors noting my passage. I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil. I could even make it relatively unnoticeable by photographing the front of the badge and printing that image, and gluing that to the foil.

"Hey, I was in class. Check with my teachers. Not my fault your ID badges and readers suck".


Or you could just stick your badge in another kid's backpack? Make sure it's one who has the same schedule as you for the periods you're gone (and same gender in case of bathroom breaks), and you're set.
 
2012-11-21 11:22:27 AM

KellyX: I didn't get to read all the comments, and I'm sure this was covered...

I'm not sure how they'd be tracked off-campus, but the fact they claim that would be reason to not want to keep these on my person outside of school.

In-School however, I see now issue with these being used. Perhaps they should make them be stored at their first class of the day and dropped off there at the end of the day too?


1. RFID tech has a very limited range. The chips are passive and transmit nothing until they enter an RF field of correct frequency, they then us that RF field power themselves, and emit a very weak signal that is nothing more then a short string of numbers that has to be read by a data base to even know what that particular string corresponds to.

2. Even if they walk near another RFID scanner like say at a walmart, all it reads is a string of numbers, which mean NOTHING to that RFID scanner and Database that its attached too, in fact it will more then likely come up as a bag of CHIPS to the stores scanner.
 
2012-11-21 11:24:23 AM

dittybopper: When I have a problem is when you are training young, impressionable students that people in authority tracking their movements is just a normal part of their everyday lives, and that they can be required to submit or face dire consequences. I submit that kids used to that sort of thing will be less likely to protest against such tracking as adults.


I don't like this either, but frankly, we don't know if this is actually happening.

If the badges are just perimeter access, I really don't have a problem with this.

The article claims:

"new pilot program which tracks the precise location of all attending 4,200 students at Anson Jones Middle School and John Jay High School"

which *could* be possible.

But they also claim:

"This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person."

which is bullshiat.

So again, I'm not really seeing this as a problem of teaching kids that all their movement are being tracked. It depends on how this system is setup and the article is woefully inaccurate on how RFI D works, so I hesitate to give them full faith in their scare mongering.
 
2012-11-21 11:26:54 AM
Before reading the thread, I wonder who on the school board has a relative who manufactures RFID chips?
 
2012-11-21 11:28:05 AM

JinxofSpades: dittybopper:

No.

Having teachers take attendance is fundamentally different from tracking student movement via RFID.

How so? Data collection is data collection.


Do teachers formally record data on who passes by certain areas at all times? No? RFID does.

Saying "data collection is data collection" is pretty stupid. That's like saying "motor vehicles are motor vehicles", which is true, but it places electric RAZOR scooters in the same category as the Knock Nevis or the Saturn V.

Automated data collection is significantly more capable than manual data collection, or we'd still be using manual methods. It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
 
2012-11-21 11:30:21 AM

wingnut396: If the badges are just perimeter access, I really don't have a problem with this.


I do. Again, attending school is required (outside of very minor exceptions). Requiring a person to carry ID on them just to do something that is legally required seems a bit totalitarian to me.
 
2012-11-21 11:32:37 AM

Raharu: KellyX: I didn't get to read all the comments, and I'm sure this was covered...

I'm not sure how they'd be tracked off-campus, but the fact they claim that would be reason to not want to keep these on my person outside of school.

In-School however, I see now issue with these being used. Perhaps they should make them be stored at their first class of the day and dropped off there at the end of the day too?

1. RFID tech has a very limited range. The chips are passive and transmit nothing until they enter an RF field of correct frequency, they then us that RF field power themselves, and emit a very weak signal that is nothing more then a short string of numbers that has to be read by a data base to even know what that particular string corresponds to.

2. Even if they walk near another RFID scanner like say at a walmart, all it reads is a string of numbers, which mean NOTHING to that RFID scanner and Database that its attached too, in fact it will more then likely come up as a bag of CHIPS to the stores scanner.


Sorry if there was a mistaken, I do understand how RFID works, I just was offering solutions to paranoid students/parents.

I also don't like how they said it was to track off campus, agree to their terms and who knows, they might upgrade the badge to GPS and not say anything, or might be crazy totalitarian republicans and start installing RFID readers all over town ;)~
 
2012-11-21 11:32:46 AM

pciszek: dittybopper: I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil.

You sure? I tried wrapping a cell phone in aluminum foil as a demo of the fact that "there is no electrical field inside a conductor", but it still rang when called.

Hey, my browser tries to force the british spelling of "aluminium".


Mine keeps trying the American. We should swap.
 
2012-11-21 11:33:51 AM

Raharu: KellyX: I didn't get to read all the comments, and I'm sure this was covered...

I'm not sure how they'd be tracked off-campus, but the fact they claim that would be reason to not want to keep these on my person outside of school.

In-School however, I see now issue with these being used. Perhaps they should make them be stored at their first class of the day and dropped off there at the end of the day too?

1. RFID tech has a very limited range. The chips are passive and transmit nothing until they enter an RF field of correct frequency, they then us that RF field power themselves, and emit a very weak signal that is nothing more then a short string of numbers that has to be read by a data base to even know what that particular string corresponds to.

2. Even if they walk near another RFID scanner like say at a walmart, all it reads is a string of numbers, which mean NOTHING to that RFID scanner and Database that its attached too, in fact it will more then likely come up as a bag of CHIPS to the stores scanner.


You know, I could build a simple jammer that I could place in my kid's backpack every day. Put out a very weak Part 15 compliant RF signal on the output frequency of the RFID badges, and it would swamp the RFID receivers nearby.
 
2012-11-21 11:40:14 AM
Besides the whole claim of tracking off campus, I really don't see the issue. This is just leading to the eventual outcome of having embedded chips or star trekish like communicator on your person at any given time.
 
2012-11-21 11:40:51 AM

KellyX: Besides the whole claim of tracking off campus, I really don't see the issue. This is just leading to the eventual outcome of having embedded chips or star trekish like communicator on your person at any given time.


Hell, most people already have this in the form of a cell phone...
 
2012-11-21 11:41:39 AM
She was offered a badge without the RFID chip in it. She was expelled for not wearing that badge either. She may have had a point about the RFID chip, but not the plain badge.
 
2012-11-21 11:41:41 AM

dittybopper: Raharu: KellyX: I didn't get to read all the comments, and I'm sure this was covered...

I'm not sure how they'd be tracked off-campus, but the fact they claim that would be reason to not want to keep these on my person outside of school.

In-School however, I see now issue with these being used. Perhaps they should make them be stored at their first class of the day and dropped off there at the end of the day too?

1. RFID tech has a very limited range. The chips are passive and transmit nothing until they enter an RF field of correct frequency, they then us that RF field power themselves, and emit a very weak signal that is nothing more then a short string of numbers that has to be read by a data base to even know what that particular string corresponds to.

2. Even if they walk near another RFID scanner like say at a walmart, all it reads is a string of numbers, which mean NOTHING to that RFID scanner and Database that its attached too, in fact it will more then likely come up as a bag of CHIPS to the stores scanner.

You know, I could build a simple jammer that I could place in my kid's backpack every day. Put out a very weak Part 15 compliant RF signal on the output frequency of the RFID badges, and it would swamp the RFID receivers nearby.



That's kind of the paranoid asshole thing to do. Do you object to the teachers taking attendance?

Do you object to the office calling down to the class room to see if your kid is there because you need to take him to the dentist?

RFID makes the above simpler, and quicker. Same for the points below.

Do you object to the school and the police/EMS knowing if your kid is off campus if there is a shooting or other emergency like a fire?
 
2012-11-21 11:43:11 AM

dittybopper: JinxofSpades: dittybopper:

No.

Having teachers take attendance is fundamentally different from tracking student movement via RFID.

How so? Data collection is data collection.

Do teachers formally record data on who passes by certain areas at all times? No? RFID does.

Saying "data collection is data collection" is pretty stupid. That's like saying "motor vehicles are motor vehicles", which is true, but it places electric RAZOR scooters in the same category as the Knock Nevis or the Saturn V.

Automated data collection is significantly more capable than manual data collection, or we'd still be using manual methods. It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.


Fine, I over-simplified. Automated data collection is more capable. And more efficient.
So is the concern here the method of collection, or the ways that the data is being used? Because I would point out that keeping a record of every read incident of a student (or all of their movements through a building) is hardly an invasion of privacy. Could the data be misused? I suppose so. But unless admin are running reports on the number of times someone enters a bathroom (which they'd be unlikely to track anyway) I'm hard pressed to imagine an abuse of the provided data.
 
2012-11-21 11:43:28 AM

scottydoesntknow: Refusing to wear a RFID-chipped badge? Ok we'll be reasonable, will you wear a badge that doesn't have one? That's an expulsion 

FTFY subby.

/Stupid idea nonetheless
//Let the helicopter parents track their own kids


Except for the part where it said she did not want to wear one at all due to the fact that it would imply that she is participating in the program, hence the unreasonableness.


dittybopper: Raharu: DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: Also, from the standpoint of preventing weapons from entering school, it's at best a very, very weak solution. I taught the 12 year old kid up the street how to knap glass into an effective blade/projectile point, and that won't show up in a metal detector. Neither would a carefully constructed zip gun.


Or a pencil, protractor, scissors, desk, your fists or feet, another smaller kid, etc.
 
2012-11-21 11:43:42 AM

pciszek: dittybopper: I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil.

You sure? I tried wrapping a cell phone in aluminum foil as a demo of the fact that "there is no electrical field inside a conductor", but it still rang when called.

Hey, my browser tries to force the british spelling of "aluminium".


You have to have an earth ground to make a faraday cage out of aluminum foil. Just wrapping a phone with foil, and no ground makes it an antenna
 
2012-11-21 12:05:45 PM

dittybopper: JinxofSpades: dittybopper:

No.

Having teachers take attendance is fundamentally different from tracking student movement via RFID.

How so? Data collection is data collection.

Do teachers formally record data on who passes by certain areas at all times? No? RFID does.

Saying "data collection is data collection" is pretty stupid. That's like saying "motor vehicles are motor vehicles", which is true, but it places electric RAZOR scooters in the same category as the Knock Nevis or the Saturn V.

Automated data collection is significantly more capable than manual data collection, or we'd still be using manual methods. It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.


You're nitpicking a bit. His point is still valid. If taking attendance and using hall monitors is acceptable, why isn't this? The goal of taking attendance and employing hall monitors is to ensure that students are where they are supposed to be within the school. The RFID system is simply a superior means to those same ends.
 
2012-11-21 12:09:04 PM

dittybopper:
Do teachers formally record data on who passes by certain areas at all times? No? RFID does.


Though I alluded to an answer to this in my prior post, I'll do so explicitly here. The answer is no, teachers do not, but the school does. That's exactly what hall monitors are for. They may not record every name of every student, but they watch for students who are not where they are supposed to be.
 
2012-11-21 12:11:57 PM

Raharu: Do you object to the school and the police/EMS knowing if your kid is off campus if there is a shooting or other emergency like a fire?


I think part of the issue is people thinking that students in school should have the same rights as adults in public. They see it as a draconian infringement on rights, similar to public police cameras. I think that's the dividing line here. I for one think students are already treated like cattle with few rights, because they are not adults, so this RFID stuff doesn't change anything.
 
2012-11-21 12:14:30 PM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."


What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?
 
2012-11-21 12:22:03 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


It entirely misses the point of the mark of the beast though. It was a way of telling those who supported rome from those who didn't.
 
2012-11-21 12:23:23 PM

tallguywithglasseson: according to Infowars.

WTF?


That's where I stopped reading.

Anyone check with the school to see if it
1) exists
2) has an RFID based system
3) expelled a student over it

It shouldn't be that hard. Infowars: Fighting reality since 2000 BCE.
 
2012-11-21 12:24:30 PM

Antimatter: HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?

It entirely misses the point of the mark of the beast though. It was a way of telling those who supported rome from those who didn't.


Well NOW you're expecting Christians to actually understand their own theology, which is just silly.
 
2012-11-21 12:24:59 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


Mittens saved baby penguin! If Mittens chose to save baby penguin based on his beliefs, and Mitten's beliefs are not in his direct control, does Mittens really have free will?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-21 12:26:09 PM

Antimatter: HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?

It entirely misses the point of the mark of the beast though. It was a way of telling those who supported rome from those who didn't.


I understand what you are saying, but that misses my point.... it doesn't matter if she is right or wrong... those are her BELIEFS... In this country beliefs are sacrosanct. If they do not interfere with anyone else' liberty, then they cannot be touched.
 
2012-11-21 12:29:49 PM
I'm just shocked that the school district actually had enough money to throw away on something that provides zero benefit to education.
 
2012-11-21 12:31:19 PM
There is something to be said for teachers recognizing their students and noticing when they are present or absent. If they require RFID chips to know whether or not their students are all present I think they have a bigger problem.
 
2012-11-21 12:31:53 PM
This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

Perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist in San Antonio?! Were these magic RFID tags?? Did the school buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?!?!?!
 
2012-11-21 12:33:22 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.

It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.


ROFL

/asthma attack
//ROFL
/// Where's my inhaler??!?!
 
2012-11-21 12:40:40 PM

Antimatter: HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: ***snip***

It entirely misses the point of the mark of the beast though. It was a way of telling those who supported rome from those who didn't.


I am simply interpreting your comment based on what is in the article as I have no knowledge of the verses that were referred to, but her overarching point seems to be, "This is a bad system that I don't support, and even if I wear a badge with no tracker, it would be impossible to differentiate me from the people who do support this idea."

To me, that seems in line with what your comment says about the verses that were referenced.
 
2012-11-21 12:47:59 PM

wildcardjack: tallguywithglasseson: according to Infowars.

WTF?

That's where I stopped reading.

Anyone check with the school to see if it
1) exists
2) has an RFID based system
3) expelled a student over it

It shouldn't be that hard. Infowars: Fighting reality since 2000 BCE.


Points 1 and 2 are truth.

Frankly I was thinking the same thing. I don't know enough about this system to know if it is any different than computerized attendance that many districts are using right now. Does the system actually tell the office if a student in in Hallway Zone 3-B, or if they have entered the bathroom but not left? Perhaps all it does is put an entry into the attendance database as to what class room the student is currently in.

Being a school system, I also wonder how poorly managed it is. Sure they may have this nifty system, but if the clueless clerks in the front office can't work it, or the underpaid sysadmins did a poor job setting it up, how accurate and worthwhile is it?
 
2012-11-21 01:02:35 PM

weiserfireman: pciszek: dittybopper: I could to that with a pennies worth of aluminum foil.

You sure? I tried wrapping a cell phone in aluminum foil as a demo of the fact that "there is no electrical field inside a conductor", but it still rang when called.

Hey, my browser tries to force the british spelling of "aluminium".

You have to have an earth ground to make a faraday cage out of aluminum foil. Just wrapping a phone with foil, and no ground makes it an antenna


No, you don't need to ground a faraday cage to shield whatever is inside from RF. You *DO* need to ground it to protect from things like static electrical charges, but that's a horse of a different color.
 
2012-11-21 01:07:12 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: dittybopper:
Do teachers formally record data on who passes by certain areas at all times? No? RFID does.


Though I alluded to an answer to this in my prior post, I'll do so explicitly here. The answer is no, teachers do not, but the school does. That's exactly what hall monitors are for. They may not record every name of every student, but they watch for students who are not where they are supposed to be.


See, that's the difference: A hall monitor (we didn't have them at our school) is there mainly just to make sure nothing happens. They don't record the name of every single person who passes by them with the date and time.
 
2012-11-21 01:09:39 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


And his belief is that she has the wrong belief about the school's beliefs.
 
2012-11-21 01:14:14 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Raharu: Do you object to the school and the police/EMS knowing if your kid is off campus if there is a shooting or other emergency like a fire?

I think part of the issue is people thinking that students in school should have the same rights as adults in public. They see it as a draconian infringement on rights, similar to public police cameras. I think that's the dividing line here. I for one think students are already treated like cattle with few rights, because they are not adults, so this RFID stuff doesn't change anything.


You are absolutely right that students don't have the full rights that adult citizens have, but they *DO* have some rights.

My objection is that you are training students to be subject to totalitarian style tracking at an early age.

Now, I punish the littlebopper when he exceeds what he is allowed to do, but I also try to balance that against age-appropriate independence. I don't mind that he defies me a little: It shows that he has a mind of his own. I want to encourage that in a healthy way, not beat it out of him through an electronic dog collar.

I mean, RFID badges are essentially that, aren't they? Sure, they don't shock the kids physically, but I bet if they break the perimeter they'll send someone out to retrieve them (assuming the system is installed on the exterior doors. That would prevent many forms of ditching. Not that I encourage that, but a little rebellion in a child is a good thing.
 
2012-11-21 01:16:23 PM
Over 116 posts and no one has mentioned why schools want to use RFID.

It's about money, of course. Schools get money based on average daily attendance. If a kid doesn't answer classroom roll call, the school loses money. But if the school can verify that the kid is somewhere on campus, no money is lost. RFID does the job.
 
2012-11-21 01:24:03 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Over 116 posts and no one has mentioned why schools want to use RFID.

It's about money, of course. Schools get money based on average daily attendance. If a kid doesn't answer classroom roll call, the school loses money. But if the school can verify that the kid is somewhere on campus, no money is lost. RFID does the job.


Wait till this gets implemented in Chicago. If you can vote, you can go to school.
 
2012-11-21 01:39:56 PM
Fark... FARK?!?!

Did you not notice how hot the author is?!

cdn-static.zdnet.com

You guys are slipping... wtf?
 
2012-11-21 01:49:38 PM

the_geek: Bloody William: I hear stories about how the schools have changed since I graduated. Small steps at first, but then metal detectors, more surveillance, more strict rules.

You have to justify larger budgets somehow.


Larger budgets for what? Teachers in this state have had their pay cut every year for several years now.
 
2012-11-21 01:49:41 PM
Rally your fellow urchins and leave a pile of badges on the ground in front of the office.
 
2012-11-21 01:53:20 PM

JohnnyC: Fark... FARK?!?!

Did you not notice how hot the author is?!

[cdn-static.zdnet.com image 140x105]

You guys are slipping... wtf?


Can't see her knees, they must be sharp.
 
2012-11-21 02:01:11 PM
Sure, give kids the ability to create alibis with little to no effort.
"There's no way I beat him up, I was in the library! Check my badge if you don't believe me!"

Or better yet, steal the unpopular kid's badge, trash the place, and disappear into the night leaving all evidence pointing to someone else. Yes, what could possibly go wrong.

And this is coming from someone who thinks RFID is pretty cool.
 
2012-11-21 02:15:28 PM

Antimatter: HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?

It entirely misses the point of the mark of the beast though. It was a way of telling those who supported rome from those who didn't.


And it makes for an extremely potent tracker and identifier. I'd think the current belief system is as follows:

1.People get "Mark Of the Beast" with logical and reasonable explanation of benefits
2.Evil Entity X begins correlating data, allowing them to identify those with Belief Y
3.Evil Entity X attains power and starts to oppress or even exterminate those identified with Belief Y
4.Only those with Belief Y who managed to avoid the "Mark" survive
5.Prophet?

Thing is, anything could be Belief Y, from specific groups of Christians to Gays and Liberals. So it's not just Christians who should be worried.
 
2012-11-21 02:19:10 PM
They offered to let her wear a non-chipped version if she would publicly acknowledge her total compliance with the program and sign a form saying she did not object to the RFID tracking. She refused.

She stood up for what she believes, whether or not it was based in crazy religious B.S.-- You have to respect that.
 
2012-11-21 02:22:55 PM

wildcardjack: tallguywithglasseson: according to Infowars.

WTF?

That's where I stopped reading.

Anyone check with the school to see if it
1) exists
2) has an RFID based system
3) expelled a student over it

It shouldn't be that hard. Infowars: Fighting reality since 2000 BCE.


It's not that I doubt that some school has RFID student IDs, just that I'm not interested in the interpretation or conclusions of someone who considers infowars a legitimate source. And from ZDNet? Seriously, WTF?
 
2012-11-21 02:29:39 PM

elchupacabra: Thing is, anything could be Belief Y, from specific groups of Christians to Gays and Liberals. So it's not just everyone besides Christians who should be worried.


Call me crazy, but I don't think that the 73% have to worry about being "singled out."
 
2012-11-21 02:34:20 PM
What prevents students from putting the RFID badge in their locker and skipping school the next day? Would the system count the student as being in school?
 
2012-11-21 02:36:25 PM

Bossk'sSegway: What prevents students from putting the RFID badge in their locker and skipping school the next day? Would the system count the student as being in school?


60 RFID badges in one bathroom stall.
 
2012-11-21 02:44:11 PM

Raharu: Sorry Luddites but the future is coming, RFID is not invasive.

When an RFID tagged school has a shooting and the police are able to tell if the kids are out of the building, or who is still trapped inside I think you may change your tune...

When something insane goes down at a factory, and the EMS crews need to know the last location of employees, or where to search for survivors or bodies I think this tech will show its value.

toot toot.

As long as RFID chips are not INSIDE you, its possible to ditch the tag... they even offered this chump an RFID free badge.


The protest isnt against the tech. It is against *how* the tech is being used. The admins are not using it to protect the students from harm. They are using it to turn the students into more $$ for the school district's pockets. In effect, the children are nothing more than cattle to the admins.

*That* is what we need to protest against.
 
2012-11-21 02:46:20 PM

Bossk'sSegway: What prevents students from putting the RFID badge in their locker and skipping school the next day? Would the system count the student as being in school?


You have it passed from friend to friend who are taking the same classes as you.
 
2012-11-21 02:50:34 PM
There are different kinds of RFID cards. For example the RFID badge we have to wear at my workplace have a company logo, our picture and first name - the RFID chip is used to open doors; this card has a range of about 4 inches. The RFID card in some credit-cards seem to have a range of a few feet. The RFID card that I have to put in my car window for the toll bridges and tool roads has a range of over 50 feet. They are all about the sized card (though the car one is a little thicker.) So yes, if they use the same kind of tech in the TollPass card in the kids school ID - then yes, they could put readers all over town and track them everywhere.

Then again they could put facial recognition and cameras everywhere. (Oh wait.. they already do in some places.)
 
2012-11-21 02:56:00 PM
Yup. Infowars.

The same people who believe that 9/11 was directly engineered by the United States government and their NWO/Illuminati/Reptilian masters. The cranks that believe FEMA runs concentration camps.
 
2012-11-21 02:58:36 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


Beliefs are a choice, religion is a choice. Maybe they are the wrong choices (according to someone else) and should believe what she is told.

/Now shut up and be a good slave.
 
2012-11-21 03:10:15 PM

red5ish: There is something to be said for teachers recognizing their students and noticing when they are present or absent. If they require RFID chips to know whether or not their students are all present I think they have a bigger problem.


One word: CAFETERIA.
 
2012-11-21 03:11:24 PM
Thank Bog we have money for this system but not for paper and pencils.
 
2012-11-21 03:25:58 PM
Here is a link to a more reputable source

Clickypops
 
2012-11-21 03:29:48 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


Freedom of religion is part of the first amendment. Just like freedom of speech.

Schools are able to restrict students' speech. Why can't the school ignore a student's religious beliefs as well?
 
2012-11-21 03:33:07 PM

NecoConeco: Here is a link to a more reputable source

Clickypops


From that link:

The family says they don't want their daughter wearing the badge for religious reasons.

Fark the other students - they can all burn in hell. But our precious snowflake should be able to point and laugh at them as they burn.

/yeah, a bit much
//but Christians persecuted in Texas?
///LOLOLOLOLOL
 
2012-11-21 03:35:56 PM
Thank God I went to a great public education program that didn't have us wear trackers around our necks.

/ I never thought I'd type that!
 
2012-11-21 03:57:40 PM

Rockstone: Thank God I went to a great public education program that didn't have us wear trackers around our necks.

/ I never thought I'd type that!


Note: I love the public education system, I just never thought I could add "doesn't track students" to the list..
 
2012-11-21 04:34:45 PM
Couldn't the students just, well, wreck the actual chip? It could happen by accident quite frequently anyways.
 
2012-11-21 04:47:07 PM
and yet she happily carries around her cellphone wherever she goes, LOL.
 
2012-11-21 05:26:28 PM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.


I would think the right decision would have been to prioritize getting a convenient and free* education over taking a principled stand against making it easy for the principal to know when you're cutting class.

/ * "free" meaning tax-subsidized
 
2012-11-21 06:45:02 PM
Point 1.
Persons under the age of 21 are MINORS. While minors are alloted certain rights, they do not enjoy all of the rights and freedoms of an adult. School ID is required in most schools today, and has been for years. If you are worried about the mark of the beast, your social security ID card covers that, it is in your hand or you memorized the numbers and is in your head...
Point2.
If the RFID access points were people, and those people were taking names and time stamping the name, would there be an outcry over that? The teachers used to take attendance all the time, and no one complained then. RFID makes it easier to keep record of your attendance.
Point 3.
Education is mandatory, school is not. How and where is unimportant, the results are, as long as the person passes state certified tests proving they learned the required material. If a person wanted to learn on their own, more power to them, as they usually learn more than required.
 
2012-11-21 07:14:45 PM

bullsballs: Point 1.
Persons under the age of 21 are MINORS


While technically true, you mean 18. I didn't make any further in your post because really, if you get that one wrong out of the gate, it's all going to be downhill from there.
 
2012-11-21 07:48:14 PM
she can always go to school in Mexico.
 
2012-11-21 08:18:45 PM
So what i gather from this thread is that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy and there are plenty of folks begging for a jackboot on their throats
 
2012-11-21 09:19:00 PM

Raharu: DoBeDoBeDo: serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.

It will be years before people stop confusing GPS and RFID. I know a doctor who thought they could track his dog anywhere on earth because he was micro-chipped.
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

Most people have no clue how RFID works, from the chips, to the readers to the databases they access.


Next you'll tell me Helen Keller wasn't the little jewish girl in the attic.
 
2012-11-21 09:22:51 PM

Fano: So what i gather from this thread is that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy and there are plenty of folks begging for a jackboot on their throats


I'd agree. I think what's worse is people seem to be OK with forcing students to wear their ID. Why not just have it on you? In a wallet/pocket/book bag/purse whatever.
 
2012-11-21 09:34:06 PM
Blah...blah...blah. Until I got to this little gem, "links to their social security number". Got me to stop reading & into the "somebody done bad" mode.

No.

Bad programmer.

No cookie for you.

The phrase "unique system generated id" is the one that belongs there.
 
2012-11-21 09:50:56 PM
"This "smart" ID card will transmit location information of students to electronic readers which are installed throughout the campus. This is so that we always know where the students are in the building.

After all, parents, you expect school staff to always know where your children are during the school day."


Why? Aren't they in class? Look at their schedule - that's where they are. If they're not there, ask the teacher.

This has to have something to do with coveted attendance money.
 
2012-11-21 09:52:33 PM

rufus-t-firefly: NecoConeco: Here is a link to a more reputable source

Clickypops

From that link:

The family says they don't want their daughter wearing the badge for religious reasons.

Fark the other students - they can all burn in hell. But our precious snowflake should be able to point and laugh at them as they burn.

/yeah, a bit much
//but Christians persecuted in Texas?
///LOLOLOLOLOL


hang up the bigotry son
 
2012-11-21 10:39:17 PM

Fano: So what i gather from this thread is that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy and there are plenty of folks begging for a jackboot on their throats


THIS! This is how it happens, people. Our freedoms get nibbled away bit by bit for "Security" or "For the Children". Why not make them wear these badges? It's for our children! Even better, why not put GPS transmitters in the badges. That way you can know where your kids are at all times (for their safety, of course). But they might ditch the badge,so better stick the transmitter under the skin at birth, so we can find them if they're kidnapped.

I'm not religious, and don't consider myself a crank. I just think that we're heading towards a police state, where every citizen is tracked and has no privacy. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear, right?

As Benjamin Franklin said, he who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security
 
2012-11-21 10:58:17 PM

CujoQuarrel: Bossk'sSegway: What prevents students from putting the RFID badge in their locker and skipping school the next day? Would the system count the student as being in school?

You have it passed from friend to friend who are taking the same classes as you.


And the school still gets money because you're counted as "present." It's about money; any other benefits are serendipitous side effects.
 
2012-11-22 12:29:01 AM

Weaver95: how are kids supposed to learn to be fully functional adults in a 'free society'


static.prtst.net 

/THAT is exactly what they don't want
 
2012-11-22 12:56:08 AM

Mega Steve: As Benjamin Franklin said, he who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security


That's the worst bit. It's not even security, it's a guise of security. It's amazingly simple to thwart, doesn't actually protect anyone, and lulls the school staff into a false sense of control. "Oh, I don't need to take attendance anymore, all the lights on the screen are lit," before starting class. Not even a reason to check for the students. If they had these things when I was in school, I'd have definitely tried to see how hackable it was - create a few dozen duplicate students or whatever.

This sort of stuff could be useful if you wanted to have a two-factor credentials for the school's computing resources (a damn good idea actually), or maybe in it's most extreme form, as access control to unsupervised areas like restrooms while class is in session. As a way to reliably locate students like it's being advertised here? Plain stupid on the face of it. Even worse if someone is stupid enough to think it can tell them where student's aren't.
 
2012-11-22 01:06:57 AM
if my kids school tried this they get the badges back the 1st day with a note saying they don't have my ok to make my kid wear it and be tracked. The note would also state if they make my kid wear it again it would be sent back to school cut up.
 
2012-11-22 02:03:18 AM
Pretty sure you have no expectation of privacy in a public school.
 
2012-11-22 03:38:03 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

What is wrong about the reasons? Those are her beliefs. Doesn't matter if she is right or wrong. We are supposed to have religious freedom right? So if she should not base her decision on her beliefs, what should she do... base them on someone else' beliefs?


Of course it matters. Take an extreme case where your "beliefs" make you do something illegal. Still illegal no matter how much you believe in it and how much freedom of speech you have (freedom of religion is something else entirely, btw).

My religious believes require me to drink beer for breakfast. I'm a public transportation driver, what are you going to do about it?

Also, the mark of the beast is patently and objectively stupid. So, there is that.
 
2012-11-22 04:34:42 AM
"What we're teaching kids is that they live in a total surveillance state and if they do not comply, they will be punished"

Said the headmaster.

Enjoy your `land of the free`

what a joke.
 
2012-11-22 08:09:17 AM

dready zim: "What we're teaching kids is that they live in a total surveillance state and if they do not comply, they will be punished"

Said the headmaster.

Enjoy your `land of the free`

what a joke.


louderthanwar.com

"Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their farking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do what we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!"
 
2012-11-22 08:49:49 AM

Mega Steve: Fano: So what i gather from this thread is that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy and there are plenty of folks begging for a jackboot on their throats

THIS! This is how it happens, people. Our freedoms get nibbled away bit by bit for "Security" or "For the Children".


Slippery slopes are a logical fallacy.

However, we don't live on the planet Vulcan, so slippery slopes are a valid concern. I can point to numerous examples of actual slippery slopes, and the mechanisms that drive slippery slopes have been defined.
 
2012-11-22 09:08:02 AM

serial_crusher: This allows the school to track the student's location after leaving campus and for as long as the badge is on the student's person.

So they wired up the whole city of San Antonio, possibly the entire world, with those RFID readers or what? And people say Texas doesn't spend enough on the education budget.


I don't know who the people are who say that. I've never heard it here in SA. This place seems to have no qualms about education spending. I've never seen so many gorgeous, sparkling schools. My finance is a high school teacher here - starting pay for a teacher with zero experience is around $46K/year, up to around 59K. I don't know how that compares to other states - it's hardly executive pay, but certainly better than in my native Florida.
 
2012-11-22 09:16:29 AM

Izunbacol: My finance is a high school teacher here


Heh.
 
2012-11-22 09:56:16 AM

hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."


phhh super smart and chose the excuse with the most fanatics the assist them

frankly I would micro wave it for 30 seconds and color in a small part of the barcode
 
2012-11-22 12:37:54 PM

bullsballs: While minors are alloted certain rights, they do not enjoy all of the rights and freedoms of an adult.


Go look up the word "unalienable." Then, go read the Declaration of Independence. In fact, you don't even have to read the entire thing. Just the first sentence.
 
2012-11-22 12:46:01 PM

Honest Bender: bullsballs: While minors are alloted certain rights, they do not enjoy all of the rights and freedoms of an adult.

Go look up the word "unalienable." Then, go read the Declaration of Independence. In fact, you don't even have to read the entire thing. Just the first sentence.


Really? And how exactly does, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." apply?
 
2012-11-22 04:50:23 PM

spentshells: hinten: Student makes all the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

" It is a direct violation of their Christian religious beliefs, as it bears a striking resemblance to Revelations 13: 16-18 warning of the Mark of the Beast."

phhh super smart and chose the excuse with the most fanatics the assist them

frankly I would micro wave it for 30 seconds and color in a small part of the barcode


This suggestion has appeared many times. No one seems to think about the consequences: a visit from a truancy officer.

The farking RFID badges are primarily for attendance-taking so the school can get paid.
 
2012-11-22 05:36:38 PM

Honest Bender: bullsballs: While minors are alloted certain rights, they do not enjoy all of the rights and freedoms of an adult.

Go look up the word "unalienable." Then, go read the Declaration of Independence. In fact, you don't even have to read the entire thing. Just the first sentence.


The better answer would be, see Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith , 494 U.S. 872 (1990) (holding that religious beliefs do not trump neutral laws of general applicability.)

It doesn't really matter whether she is an adult or not, or if the full force of her Constitutional rights are in effect or not. The Constitution doesn't provide an exemption from laws that are neutrally and generally applied.

Also, get with the program. Of course it can be circumvented (as can any technology), but attendance 2.0 is hardly the end of the world.
 
2012-11-22 08:51:17 PM

Bhruic: dittybopper: You aren't required by law to attend work. If you have a problem with wearing an RFID, you can either work somewhere else, or just not work. School isn't like that. Schooling is *MANDATORY*, and very few people have the time and resources to home school their kids.

Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Therefore going to public school is not mandatory.


FTFY, and I'll even note that the status of what constitutes homeschooling DOES differ in all 50 states, and--ironically--one of the reasons that some state definitions functionally lock out "unschooling" and non-correspondence-schooling in general (or make it far more difficult than the dominionist correspondence-schools masquerading as "homeschooling") is in fact because of a dominionist correspondence-school lobby (called HSLDA) that tries to pass itself off as the be-all end-all of "homeschooling" lobbies (only really covering the dominionist correspondence-school industry, though, and explicitly NOT including inclusive homeschooling, unschooling, secular homeschooling for Exceptional Child Education/IDEA compliance situations unable to be met in the school system, or religious homeschooling done by non-Christian faith groups such as Moslems, neopagans, or followers of indigenous faith systems).

In general, homeschooling may be allowed, but in a number of states one has to join a homeschooling association to legally homeschool, and a whole lot of religious "homeschooling" is in fact (both de facto and de jure) a type of correspondence-schooling done as essentially a "home education extension" of a pre-existing religious private school--and anything outside of this setup tends to be very difficult in practice in a lot of states where HSLDA throws its weight around.

(Yes, there actually is a national alliance of inclusive homeschooling groups fighting to show that HSLDA isn't the only game in town--it's between this and knowing some folks who've had to do secular homeschooling (usually out of problems with IDEA compliance with a public school) that I'm aware of the issues of trying to homeschool outside of the "dominionist correspondence-school and social isolation" framework.)

A lot of states also have regulations that require parents to file paperwork every semester or every year stating that their child is in a homeschooling program for the kid to not be legally considered truant. (An interesting case here is in Wisconsin, which recently approved a bill requiring homeschooling parents to simply list the parents, kids that are being homeschooled, and what district they live in--with inclusive homeschool groups approving (among other things, this also means parents no longer have to formally withdraw kids from public school if homeschooling) and HSLDA going into Full Whargarbl Mode.)

Also, of note--states have a LOT of leeway on deciding what will be considered to be valid curricula for a homeschool program (yes, in many states, parents who aren't going through a correspondence-school program have to file teaching plans, etc. just like an actual teacher in a public or private school must do); even some dominionist correspondence-school curricula are starting to get very hairy eyeballs due to extreme educational insufficiency (ACE/School of Tomorrow was actually considered so bad in Kentucky for a while that kids only "educated" on that dominionist curricula were considered to be legally truant; Bill Gothards "Institute of Basic Life Principles" curricula is considered educationally insufficient in most states; the California state college system will not accept any student whose sole education in most school fields is from the "big four" of dominionist correspondence-school curricula and even has labeled the major group "accrediting" these programs as well as a number of dominionist private schools to be a frank accreditation mill, and so on). Unschooling-type homeschooling (which does not have a set curricula but uses a Montessori-esque "child-led" learning approach) and exceptional child home education especially seem to have issues in states requiring documentation of curricula used per semester.

(Of note--Texas is one of the more problematic states in this regard, in that most of the "homeschool" associations (in fact, just about all of them) are HSLDA-run and the public school system, much less private ones, are de facto controlled by dominionists friendly to dominionist correspondence-schooling and unfriendly to actual homeschooling.)

That said...

Let's just say that I'm actually a little surprised that the kid in question is in public schools at all--they, and their family, would seem to be the prime candidates for a private dominionist school or dominionist correspondence-course "homeschool"; the kid in question is being represented by the Rutherford Institute, one of four known dominionist "legal bullying groups" (the others being Alliance Defense Fund "Americans Defending Freedom", the Thomas More Legal Center, and the American Center for Law and Justice--the last named, in the typical dominionist attempt at trolling, to be confusingly similar in initials to the legitimate American Civil Liberties Union whilst portraying itself explicitly as the dominionist "parallel economy" "Christian alternative" to the ACLU).

All four groups can be best described as "Legal Trolls"--much like patent trolls will buy up a patent to extort money out of legit companies or how "Disability Lawyer Trolls" will deliberately go into businesses to sue the owners for not putting a handicapped stall in an exempt historic building, the four dominionist "legal troll" companies make their bread and butter by seeking out dominionists to deliberately raise a legal shiatstorm in the hopes that a pro-dominionist First Amendment precedent will be set.

Yes, it's not uncommon for dominionist activists working with these groups to do shiat like deliberately becoming a pharmacist in a chain that has a "must dispense or give to someone who will" rule for things like birth control; for dominionist kids to deliberately try to get themselves suspended or expelled so they can basically sue the school system for religious discrimination; try to get on school boards and in teaching to promote "intelligent design" and deliberately get themselves fired so as to launch a lawsuit (this boomeranged spectacularly in Kitzmiller vs. Dover, of note) and so on. (And yes, this case positively SCREAMS "Dominionist Legal Troll" here. Kid is in dominionist family (with apparently the short line to the oldest of the dominionist legal troll firms), deliberately gets herself expelled even when offered a non-RFID alternative, and is trying to get a "must kiss the Jesus Camper's ass" precedent.)
 
2012-11-23 04:36:44 PM

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinkin' RFID badges!


Nothing remains to be said on the matter.
 
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