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(Politico)   GOP opening debt talk salvo: We'll offer you everything we offered last time. *facepalm* We're never getting out of this shiat   (politico.com) divider line 171
    More: Sad, GOP, obama, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Medicare and Medicaid, Party leaders of the United States Senate, minority leaders, McKinsey, Mitch McConnell  
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3226 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Nov 2012 at 11:57 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-21 08:27:14 AM  
Ok, Mr. President. This is your chance to bust some balls. Don't fold like superman on laundry day. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain here if you play this right.
 
2012-11-21 08:30:00 AM  
What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.
 
2012-11-21 08:31:08 AM  
"Fark America, fark my constituents, fark my oath to the Constitution...does Grover Norquist think I'm cuuuuuuuuuute?"
 
2012-11-21 08:32:04 AM  
Clearly the last election was a GOP mandate
 
2012-11-21 08:36:14 AM  

stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.


The problem is, that their opening is the same as their closing.

/subby
 
2012-11-21 08:42:03 AM  

stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.


You seem to think the GOP have an understanding of the word compromise.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-21 08:57:43 AM  
I think they might compromise this time. Getting your butt kicked tends to make you less willing to repeat the experience.

Also, I wonder how gutting Social Security for anyone who doesn't ride a hoverround is going to go over with the younger demographic and the Hispanics they hope will vote for them someday.
 
2012-11-21 09:09:28 AM  

somedude210: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

The problem is, that their opening is the same as their closing.

/subby


I agree that is likely to be the result - or to be specific, I expect cosmetic "Compromises" that are meaningless but can be used as talking points - but even if they are totally sincere, it would be expected to open with a wish list
 
2012-11-21 09:09:47 AM  
Standard Republican operating procedure since 1994 has been to act as if they won the election, regardless of the actual results.

And, they've kept that OP because Democrats have, more or less (usually more), accommodated them.
 
2012-11-21 09:15:52 AM  
www.fishink.us
 
2012-11-21 09:17:46 AM  

vpb: I think they might compromise this time. Getting your butt kicked tends to make you less willing to repeat the experience.

Also, I wonder how gutting Social Security for anyone who doesn't ride a hoverround is going to go over with the younger demographic and the Hispanics they hope will vote for them someday.


I don't think they have any plan to compromise on anything. The problem is they simply do not understand they are in no position to bargain. We are going off the fiscal cliff and this congress will not pass anything. When the next congress is brought in they will be in a worse position. Hopefully Harry Reid will follow through and get rid of the filibuster in the senate. So they will be in a better position to actually pass legislation. That is going to mean the entire fiscal cliff is going to get hung around the necks of the house republicans. The last thing they want to do is raise the top tax rates. Tough shiat. Its going to happen. Unfortunately for them they are going to let all bush tax cuts expire so every taxpayer is going to feel the pinch on the very first paycheck of 2013. On top of that the entitlement cuts are going to kick in. Medicare cuts specifically are going to hit the old white base, and I do not think they are going to be able to effectively blame Obama. Even worse all the defense cuts will kick in and all those defense contractors that are heavy republican donors are going to be pissed and put heavy pressure on the republicans to quit farking around.

So they can try to defend the top tax rates all they want. All it's going to do is bring a world of hurt.
 
2012-11-21 09:20:30 AM  

stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.


When a huge wing of your party believes it's on a mission from God to cut spending and not raise taxes, you're not going to see much compromise going on.
 
2012-11-21 09:20:46 AM  

Dinki: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

You seem to think the GOP have an understanding of the word compromise.


The GOP thinks that just showing up, they've compromised.
 
2012-11-21 09:32:22 AM  

eraser8: Standard Republican operating procedure since 1994 has been to act as if they won the election, regardless of the actual results.

And, they've kept that OP because Democrats have, more or less (usually more), accommodated them.


FOX News launches, 1996. I remember the jawdrop moment myself and my little hipster libby Seattle friends had upon seeing it. Could easily tell what they were doing, but could just as easily tell it would work. Moving the conversation nationally from the middle to the permanent Right.

Which is to say, setting the tone for Republican discourse since.

Any Democrat, moderate, liberal since has had to contend with the constant agenda moving barrage from FOX.
 
2012-11-21 09:35:23 AM  

sammyk: vpb: I think they might compromise this time. Getting your butt kicked tends to make you less willing to repeat the experience.

Also, I wonder how gutting Social Security for anyone who doesn't ride a hoverround is going to go over with the younger demographic and the Hispanics they hope will vote for them someday.

I don't think they have any plan to compromise on anything. The problem is they simply do not understand they are in no position to bargain. We are going off the fiscal cliff and this congress will not pass anything. When the next congress is brought in they will be in a worse position. Hopefully Harry Reid will follow through and get rid of the filibuster in the senate. So they will be in a better position to actually pass legislation. That is going to mean the entire fiscal cliff is going to get hung around the necks of the house republicans. The last thing they want to do is raise the top tax rates. Tough shiat. Its going to happen. Unfortunately for them they are going to let all bush tax cuts expire so every taxpayer is going to feel the pinch on the very first paycheck of 2013. On top of that the entitlement cuts are going to kick in. Medicare cuts specifically are going to hit the old white base, and I do not think they are going to be able to effectively blame Obama. Even worse all the defense cuts will kick in and all those defense contractors that are heavy republican donors are going to be pissed and put heavy pressure on the republicans to quit farking around.

So they can try to defend the top tax rates all they want. All it's going to do is bring a world of hurt.


They understand it fine. The media positioning battle is the compromising they're trying first. OBama should be able to outflank. But those of us that watched him cave on health care always think he might do another el-foldo so we're cautious.

Personally, the only good Republican is a curb-stomped Republican, Obama needs some Teddy Roosevelt / Harry Truman in him. There's time for compromise, and there's times right after an election when you should stick to your guns. I hope he does.
 
2012-11-21 09:36:09 AM  

Generation_D: eraser8: Standard Republican operating procedure since 1994 has been to act as if they won the election, regardless of the actual results.

And, they've kept that OP because Democrats have, more or less (usually more), accommodated them.

FOX News launches, 1996. I remember the jawdrop moment myself and my little hipster libby Seattle friends had upon seeing it. Could easily tell what they were doing, but could just as easily tell it would work. Moving the conversation nationally from the middle to the permanent Right.

Which is to say, setting the tone for Republican discourse since.

Any Democrat, moderate, liberal since has had to contend with the constant agenda moving barrage from FOX.


I'd say it was headed in that direction starting with Rush.
 
2012-11-21 09:58:27 AM  

nekom: Ok, Mr. President. This is your chance to bust some balls. Don't fold like superman on laundry day. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain here if you play this right.


There is a line in Hancock which I think is appropriate: "Ya'll fellas sure you want to
ride this train?"
 
2012-11-21 10:29:17 AM  
In addition to wanting to keep the Bush tax rates, Republicans also want to postpone the sequester

And then scream about Obama's reckless deficit spending, no doubt.

These people are on another planet.
 
2012-11-21 10:42:21 AM  

Generation_D: sammyk: vpb: I think they might compromise this time. Getting your butt kicked tends to make you less willing to repeat the experience.

Also, I wonder how gutting Social Security for anyone who doesn't ride a hoverround is going to go over with the younger demographic and the Hispanics they hope will vote for them someday.

I don't think they have any plan to compromise on anything. The problem is they simply do not understand they are in no position to bargain. We are going off the fiscal cliff and this congress will not pass anything. When the next congress is brought in they will be in a worse position. Hopefully Harry Reid will follow through and get rid of the filibuster in the senate. So they will be in a better position to actually pass legislation. That is going to mean the entire fiscal cliff is going to get hung around the necks of the house republicans. The last thing they want to do is raise the top tax rates. Tough shiat. Its going to happen. Unfortunately for them they are going to let all bush tax cuts expire so every taxpayer is going to feel the pinch on the very first paycheck of 2013. On top of that the entitlement cuts are going to kick in. Medicare cuts specifically are going to hit the old white base, and I do not think they are going to be able to effectively blame Obama. Even worse all the defense cuts will kick in and all those defense contractors that are heavy republican donors are going to be pissed and put heavy pressure on the republicans to quit farking around.

So they can try to defend the top tax rates all they want. All it's going to do is bring a world of hurt.

They understand it fine. The media positioning battle is the compromising they're trying first. OBama should be able to outflank. But those of us that watched him cave on health care always think he might do another el-foldo so we're cautious.

Personally, the only good Republican is a curb-stomped Republican, Obama needs some Teddy Roosevelt / Harry Truman in him. There's time for compromise, and there's times right after an election when you should stick to your guns. I hope he does.


Lets see...we actually got health care reform. Something that countless Presidents of both parties tried before for half a century.

Did we get everything we wanted on this issue...no. That's successful compromise.

But we got an actual a big ass overhaul.
 
2012-11-21 10:46:28 AM  

SurfaceTension: Generation_D: eraser8: Standard Republican operating procedure since 1994 has been to act as if they won the election, regardless of the actual results.

And, they've kept that OP because Democrats have, more or less (usually more), accommodated them.

FOX News launches, 1996. I remember the jawdrop moment myself and my little hipster libby Seattle friends had upon seeing it. Could easily tell what they were doing, but could just as easily tell it would work. Moving the conversation nationally from the middle to the permanent Right.

Which is to say, setting the tone for Republican discourse since.

Any Democrat, moderate, liberal since has had to contend with the constant agenda moving barrage from FOX.

I'd say it was headed in that direction starting with Rush.


Yes certainly, but AM radio was a ghetto even then. Other than Hillary's "Vast right wing conspiracy" which got more snickers than believers. At least thats how I saw it. Opinions may vary.
 
2012-11-21 11:00:57 AM  
In addition to wanting to keep the Bush tax rates, Republicans also want to postpone the sequester, or tens of billions of dollars in automatic spending cuts for the Pentagon and domestic programs set to kick in on Jan. 2.

But big government spending!
And debt crisis, remember? We can't raise the debt ceiling because enough is enough!

shiatheads.

//but yeah, you don't expect them to open with their best offer
//maybe Obama could learn from that
 
2012-11-21 12:00:20 PM  
One of the MSNBC shows last night played a bunch of clips (it might've been Ezra Klein filling in for Lawrence O'Donnell) where it showed a bunch of Republicans denouncing Grover Norquist. So they might see the writing on the wall, here. We'll see, I suppose.
 
2012-11-21 12:04:13 PM  

SurfaceTension: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

When a huge wing of your party believes it's on a mission from God Grover Norquist to cut spending and not raise taxes, you're not going to see much compromise going on.


FTFY

/don't remember them pledging to God.
 
2012-11-21 12:07:16 PM  
I so desperately want the Grand Bargain to be a mix of "spending cuts" (changes in how programs are paid for in future years), cutting not-yet funds out of the budget while letting the new rates for the top brackets expire (or adding [a] $500k/$1M bracket[s] at 40%). Things like removing USPS' insane requirement to fill the pension fund RIGHT NOW for all retirements from now until 2087. Changing how intragovernmental debt is accounted for.

That'd be, in my mind, a "100% win" for Obama.
 
2012-11-21 12:07:17 PM  

cretinbob: Clearly the last election was a GOP mandate


It was only a flesh wound.
 
2012-11-21 12:07:24 PM  
Don't need the GOP. We can go over the dreaded "fiscal cliff", lose the Bush Tax Cuts, cut Defense spending, and all polls point to the public blaming the GOP for it.

[im_okay_with_this.jpg]
 
2012-11-21 12:08:11 PM  
We will go off the cliff, that is written. The GOP has to show they'll do it or they'll never have a decent hand again.
 
2012-11-21 12:09:19 PM  
GOP obstructionism doesn't hurt the Koch's or Romeny.
 
2012-11-21 12:11:13 PM  

Dinki: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

You seem to think the GOP have an understanding of the word compromise.


If they don't compremise then Bush's tax cuts expire and there will be some large spending cuts with defense making up half those cuts. After that happens, Obama will counter next year with tax cuts for people making less than $250,000. If the GOP wants to try to block the middle class tax cut, then that will be an issue the votes can address in 2014. GOP can either compromise or get ass-reamed.
 
2012-11-21 12:14:36 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Don't need the GOP. We can go over the dreaded "fiscal cliff", lose the Bush Tax Cuts, cut Defense spending, and all polls point to the public blaming the GOP for it.

[im_okay_with_this.jpg]


/highlighted what I feel to be the most important part of this conversation.
//Describe the condition that we've colloquialized as "the fiscal cliff" or I'm going to continue operating on the assumption that we're talking about Death Panels again and ignore the conversation altogether.
 
2012-11-21 12:14:41 PM  
Subby: "*facepalm* We're never getting out of this"

Subby, please realize that the dynamics of the situation are that "this" -- the current state of things -- ARE going to change unless both sides come to an agreement. If the two sides refuse to move, the sequestration will go into effect.

Another thing: The "Fiscal Cliff" doesn't have some sort of dramatic effect on January 1, 2013. It can go on for a while, and if the incoming Congress comes to an agreement, they can make it retroactive to the beginning of the year.

It's not a cliff, it's a slope. And even so, it's not like Clinton-era tax rates were some sort of financial Armageddon. I remember low unemployment, strong growth, low interest rates, low fuel prices, rising housing costs, a federal surplus, no wars ... you know, "Good Times".
 
2012-11-21 12:16:41 PM  
The rates are going up one way or another... Along with a lot of cuts to things GOP supporters like.

Obama's counter offer should be, "Go fark yourself and have fun explaining to your constituents why their taxes are going up because you refused to allow rates to go up just on the upper income levels.

It's not like the American public blames the GOP for the fiscal mess by a 2-1 margin or anything...
 
2012-11-21 12:17:05 PM  
blog.chron.com

You cannot have a conversation without it descending into a shiat flinging argument with a person who believes that you are either with them on their mission to save the nation, or are just another piece of everything that is wrong with America.
 
2012-11-21 12:17:40 PM  

sammyk: vpb: I think they might compromise this time. Getting your butt kicked tends to make you less willing to repeat the experience.

Also, I wonder how gutting Social Security for anyone who doesn't ride a hoverround is going to go over with the younger demographic and the Hispanics they hope will vote for them someday.

I don't think they have any plan to compromise on anything. The problem is they simply do not understand they are in no position to bargain. We are going off the fiscal cliff and this congress will not pass anything. When the next congress is brought in they will be in a worse position. Hopefully Harry Reid will follow through and get rid of the filibuster in the senate. So they will be in a better position to actually pass legislation. That is going to mean the entire fiscal cliff is going to get hung around the necks of the house republicans. The last thing they want to do is raise the top tax rates. Tough shiat. Its going to happen. Unfortunately for them they are going to let all bush tax cuts expire so every taxpayer is going to feel the pinch on the very first paycheck of 2013. On top of that the entitlement cuts are going to kick in. Medicare cuts specifically are going to hit the old white base, and I do not think they are going to be able to effectively blame Obama. Even worse all the defense cuts will kick in and all those defense contractors that are heavy republican donors are going to be pissed and put heavy pressure on the republicans to quit farking around.

So they can try to defend the top tax rates all they want. All it's going to do is bring a world of hurt.


They think God will give them what they want. Just like last time.
 
2012-11-21 12:18:29 PM  
I hope Obama finds his inner Michael Corleone --

cdn1.hark.com

"Senator? You can have my answer now, if you like. ..."
 
2012-11-21 12:18:59 PM  
fta Republicans haven't gone much beyond the failed "grand bargain" talks between Obama and Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) in mid-2011,

I don't care what Nate Silver's math says, doubling down on rigid ideology in the face of election results that show the public doesn't like their rigid ideology is going to cost the Republicans the House in 2014.
 
2012-11-21 12:19:13 PM  

Muta: Dinki: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

You seem to think the GOP have an understanding of the word compromise.

If they don't compremise then Bush's tax cuts expire and there will be some large spending cuts with defense making up half those cuts. After that happens, Obama will counter next year with tax cuts for people making less than $250,000. If the GOP wants to try to block the middle class tax cut, then that will be an issue the votes can address in 2014. GOP can either compromise or get ass-reamed.


It will be amusing to watch the GOP first fight against Obama's proposed tax cuts, then champion their own tax cuts with extra cuts for the upper brackets while simultaneously fighting for more spending and more borrowing. And, somehow, 40% of the country will still view them as the party of "fiscal responsibility".

Don't forget we have another debt ceiling showdown coming up in 2013, too.
 
2012-11-21 12:20:54 PM  
BIG SURPRISE
 
2012-11-21 12:21:15 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: In addition to wanting to keep the Bush tax rates, Republicans also want to postpone the sequester

And then scream about Obama's reckless deficit spending, no doubt.

These people are on another planet.


Now you're getting the hang of it!
 
2012-11-21 12:21:31 PM  

StopLurkListen: It's not a cliff, it's a slope.


It's also a perception. One just needs to look at the markets in the middle of the debt ceiling "debate."
 
2012-11-21 12:21:47 PM  
Sounds like the NHL.
 
2012-11-21 12:22:30 PM  
G-D it all. Just farking throw a box of knives in the room. Last one standing gets what they want.
 
2012-11-21 12:23:03 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Did we get everything we wanted on this issue...no.


I am waiting to see what the Railroad Postal Workers coverage option TaxFartB0ng0 is sneaking into the state exchanges and making available to everyone looks like. Rumor has it that if it is half as good as it should be it will out compete the other options.
 
2012-11-21 12:25:14 PM  

Dinki: stratagos: What do you expect them to open with, subby - you open with your *starting* position, knowing you're not going to get everything.

You seem to think the GOP have an understanding of the word compromise.


Why compromise when you can conpromise?
 
2012-11-21 12:25:14 PM  

StopLurkListen: Another thing: The "Fiscal Cliff" doesn't have some sort of dramatic effect on January 1, 2013. It can go on for a while, and if the incoming Congress comes to an agreement, they can make it retroactive to the beginning of the year.


This. For serious.

We're talking about the end of the 2011 payroll tax cut, the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts, some reduction to breaks received by certain businesses, a shift in AMT, whatever new tax burden arises from Obamacare and some automatic spending cuts.

In other words, what we're calling THE FISCAL CLIFF today, was ALL ACCORDING TO PLAN yesterday, as far as I've been able to gather.

And all the fussin' and fighting isn't about "The Cliff" itself, but about the political calculus associated with making any adjustments to these things now that the election is over and tons of political capital has been expended by the GOP. "The Cliff" isn't what these assholes are worried about. They are worried about being saddled with ANY DECISION WHATSOEVER. The preferred strategy is no and will remain "Crow about The Cliff like it's a summer farking blockbuster. Tie ANY AND ALL bad economic news to The Cliff (coming summer 2013 to a theater near you). Tie the failure to resolve The Cliff (starring Liam Neeson), to some perceived Lack of Leadership on the part of the president. And ultimately try and re-re-brand the Democrats as useless, spineless, feckless, bunglers."

Expect the summer spike in gas prices to be attributed to these discussions. But first expect increased post-holiday unemployment to be blamed directly on the uncertainty caused by the lack of progress in these discussions.

If the GOP can jump off of Patraeus' dick for a couple days and let Benghazi just die the slow death, they can completely salvage their party with this single narrative.

That's not going to happen because they appear to have gone full retard, but if they were smart, and unified in purpose, they'd do that.

Instead we get to go "over the cliff" and then we get to shoulder the GOP with anything they vomit forth over the course of this debate until they shut their pie holes.
 
2012-11-21 12:25:40 PM  
The United States government has a long standing policy of not negotiating with Muslim terrorists.
 
2012-11-21 12:25:50 PM  
I wonder how much more proof anyone needs to see that the gop just wants to see this country crash and burn. They'll just push more and more people to the left until their party is completely obliterated and they become a nomadic hunter/gather tribe.
 
2012-11-21 12:26:14 PM  

DarnoKonrad: StopLurkListen: It's not a cliff, it's a slope.

It's also a perception. One just needs to look at the markets in the middle of the debt ceiling "debate."


The last thing we should do is set policies based on fear of what Wall Street might do. We should aim for a stable, growing economy; and let Wall Street do what it does.
 
2012-11-21 12:26:25 PM  
Republican position: If you give us all the tax breaks for the rich we will let you make cuts to Social Security and Medicare (so we can blame you for them)
 
2012-11-21 12:28:16 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: These people are on another planet.


Yeah - Kolob.

Notabunny: I don't care what Nate Silver's math says, doubling down on rigid ideology in the face of election results that show the public doesn't like their rigid ideology is going to cost the Republicans the House in 2014.


You underestimate how short the attention span of the average American voter is.
 
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