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(Jerusalem Post) NewsFlash Bus explodes in central Tel Aviv, at least 10 injured   (jpost.com) divider line 405
    More: NewsFlash, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan  
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3741 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Nov 2012 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-11-21 05:33:21 AM
JERRY JERRY JERRY
 
2012-11-21 05:44:01 AM
Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!
 
2012-11-21 05:51:06 AM
-1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians
 
2012-11-21 05:51:48 AM
Surprise surprise
 
2012-11-21 05:52:04 AM
Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own'
 
2012-11-21 05:52:21 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?
 
2012-11-21 05:53:52 AM
Goddamnit. Stop trying to make the Middle East a thing
 
2012-11-21 05:54:09 AM
Ugh. This business will get out of control, etc.

:\
 
2012-11-21 05:54:15 AM

Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?


Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?
 
2012-11-21 05:54:48 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?
Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.
Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield
 
2012-11-21 05:55:42 AM
Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.
 
2012-11-21 05:57:22 AM

Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?


Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.
 
2012-11-21 05:57:25 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


And because the casual disregard ends up being so much better?
 
2012-11-21 05:57:27 AM

Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.


Sux to start a shooting war you can't win. But hey the PR is really good when you duck behind the girn next door so there is that.
 
2012-11-21 05:57:33 AM
Hillary to the rescue. It will be remembered when she runs and wins in 2016.
 
2012-11-21 05:58:24 AM

yousaywut: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Sux to start a shooting war you can't win. But hey the PR is really good when you duck behind the girn next door so there is that.


Girl next door

/FTFM
 
2012-11-21 05:58:34 AM
So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?
 
2012-11-21 05:58:46 AM

Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.


But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent
 
2012-11-21 05:58:54 AM
Isn't it weird how the Palestinians with decades old weapons technology are just as accurate as Israel is with modern weapons technology?
 
2012-11-21 05:59:05 AM

Kevin72: Hillary to the rescue. It will be remembered when she runs and wins in 2016.


If it works she will be a shoe in 2016 and beyond.
 
2012-11-21 05:59:10 AM
Or, as they call it in that region, "Wednesday."
 
2012-11-21 06:00:44 AM
"My invisible man is better than your invisible man!"

"No, MY invisible man is better than YOUR invisible man!"

*sounds of explosions*
 
2012-11-21 06:00:49 AM
dang what a deal
 
2012-11-21 06:00:56 AM
Laugh about it
Shout about it
When you've got to choose
Anyway you look at it you lose
/both sides knock it off cease and desist
 
2012-11-21 06:01:46 AM

meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?


Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?
 
2012-11-21 06:02:21 AM

Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.


Palestinians aren't human beings, they're in the way of Prophecy - be it Christian... or (more importantly) Jewish.

That whole region needs a glass makeover

realitypod.com 

/pillar of fire on this
 
2012-11-21 06:03:17 AM
i.huffpost.com
 
2012-11-21 06:03:27 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com
Likes the bus
 
2012-11-21 06:03:35 AM

yousaywut: Kevin72: Hillary to the rescue. It will be remembered when she runs and wins in 2016.

If it works she will be a shoe in 2016 and beyond.


Shoo-in shoo-in SHOO-IN

Yes, likely.
 
2012-11-21 06:03:54 AM
I've been following @bencnn and he's live tweeting it. Not a suicide bomber from what he says.
 
2012-11-21 06:03:57 AM

cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent



'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.
 
2012-11-21 06:04:23 AM
Bad neighbors suck.
 
2012-11-21 06:04:32 AM

Summoner101: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?


Slaves and free folk of color in the New World versus.. those who weren't?
 
2012-11-21 06:06:11 AM

GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.


Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.
 
2012-11-21 06:06:16 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own'


WAIT, WHAT???????????????
This was Hamas. WHAT are you talking about??? LOLOLOLOL
You must be a secret Hamas member.

/get it? "member"
 
2012-11-21 06:06:37 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Summoner101: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?

Slaves and free folk of color in the New World versus.. those who weren't?


Did we displace a lot of slaves from their native land or did we bring them with us after capturing them from their native land?
 
2012-11-21 06:07:53 AM

Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.


And?
people die during wars. The mideast has been at war for the last 9 billion years.
people die during wars.
 
2012-11-21 06:08:40 AM
i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2012-11-21 06:08:44 AM

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


This is the excuse the IDF was waiting for to launch their ground offensive. You'll seen Israeli tanks in Gaza by the weekend, I guarantee it.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm very much hoping that this is as you say a non-event and Israel will continue to be restrained. My guess is they won't and this is the sort of incident that touches off a much larger response.

The whole situation is so sad and I really don't want WWIII to start on my favorite holiday :/
 
2012-11-21 06:09:16 AM

cman: GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.


I can't believe that even has to be explained
 
2012-11-21 06:09:31 AM

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.

This is the excuse the IDF was waiting for to launch their ground offensive. You'll seen Israeli tanks in Gaza by the weekend, I guarantee it.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm very much hoping that this is as you say a non-event and Israel will continue to be restrained. My guess is they won't and this is the sort of incident that touches off a much larger response.

The whole situation is so sad and I really don't want WWIII to start on my favorite holiday :/


Israel has sent military into Gaza in the past and it didnt start WWIII
 
2012-11-21 06:10:03 AM

Summoner101: Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?


It's been a while since the last bombing in Israel, actually.
 
2012-11-21 06:10:58 AM

Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.


Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?
 
2012-11-21 06:13:29 AM
You'll know shiat is about to hit the fan when Hillary Clinton and the UN Secretary-General are suddenly called back to Washington/New York respectively.
 
2012-11-21 06:13:42 AM

Summoner101: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Summoner101: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?

Slaves and free folk of color in the New World versus.. those who weren't?

Did we displace a lot of slaves from their native land or did we bring them with us after capturing them from their native land?


Free folk of color could be sold down river if a white was feeling ornery enough to break the taboo about it, and who was going to do anything about it? The whites who liked them would pull a sad face, but how often were charges brought? or did those free folk just 'disappear'?

Free folk of color: papers, please.

Slaves could be charged with theft...... for stealing themselves away.

Manifest Destiny wasn't just used against the Indians.

And It's God Will because Slavery Brings Christianity to the Heathens came before.

If some white folks wanted what was yours............. well, ask all those freed black family farmers.
 
2012-11-21 06:14:39 AM
Did the bus drive off the road?
 
2012-11-21 06:14:41 AM
You know what would solve the problem? Both side's citizens should go out and hold hands with each other as they sing some cheesy crappy song about peace, while the entire thing is being broadcast globally. No cuts, if some of the people get blown up by rockets, then let the world see it. If the "leaders" see their people getting blown up on live tv internationally, maybe they'll feel a little shame and stop bombing each other for a while.

I don't think reasoning can stop their war, the use of cheesy songs and hand holding should do the trick.
 
2012-11-21 06:14:43 AM

meep3d: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?


How much do you want to bet that Suede head is an American with an Obama/Biden sticker on their bumper? There is only one thing that pisses me off the most about how Americans have reacted to this situation: ultrapartisanship. Many on the left are hitting the right attacking them and mocking them for supporting Israel but say nothing when Obama says "Its all good, go ahead Israel".
 
2012-11-21 06:15:26 AM
Will this cut into green rice and cheese production?
 
2012-11-21 06:16:01 AM
I am tired of these gazans.
 
2012-11-21 06:16:50 AM

Summoner101: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?


Yes, it's just a matter of distance. The USA's constant meddling,regime changes and support of oppressive governments begat 9/11 yet nobody claims it is justifiable 'resistance', despite the group responsible claiming to have a legitimate reason.

Attacking civilians indiscriminately is never acceptable, yet the Palestinians have done so tens of thousands of times.
 
2012-11-21 06:17:21 AM
cman:

Israel has sent military into Gaza in the past and it didnt start WWIII

As I said, I really hope you're right...
 
2012-11-21 06:17:40 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians



"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.
 
2012-11-21 06:20:16 AM

DataShade: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.


Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.
 
2012-11-21 06:20:22 AM

cman: GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.



Knowing the possibility that Israel missiles aren't clever enough to really target individuals, despite what some Internet Expert believe, missiles were fired HOPING it would find its supposed target and well, if other people got killed, tough shiat, it's not like we can control something like a freakin' missile, can we?

I still say they targeted the bus. Who the fark likes buses?
 
2012-11-21 06:20:29 AM
I'm slightly confused though. Only injuries? What sort of attack was this, exactly? Some sort of IED they left on the bus and detonated remotely? Or a suicide bombing?
 
2012-11-21 06:20:42 AM

Phoenix_M: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x654]


How I wish. Too bad we won't see that in my lifetime.
 
2012-11-21 06:20:48 AM

BalugaJoe: I am tired of these gazans.


take chstfr yhenn
 
2012-11-21 06:21:19 AM
Feh let em go at it.. It will eventually work itself out.. Tired of it. Israel is always throwing shiat and expecting us to back them up. I think we should just let them do what they want... The Christian interest is RIDICULOUS.
 
2012-11-21 06:22:23 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: I'm slightly confused though. Only injuries? What sort of attack was this, exactly? Some sort of IED they left on the bus and detonated remotely? Or a suicide bombing?


Latest Israeli news is reporting that someone got on the bus, walked towards the back, set a package down, and then got off the bus.

/ American Israeli in Tel Aviv, currently staying in Jerusalem
 
2012-11-21 06:23:12 AM
Oh, and police are also reportedly looking for two people in the metropolitan area walking around with explosives as well.
 
2012-11-21 06:24:18 AM

bostonguy: Oh, and police are also reportedly looking for two people in the metropolitan area walking around with explosives as well.


Now this is how you do terrorism.

I'd love to see how the TSA would handle something like this.
 
2012-11-21 06:24:18 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?
Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.
Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield


That unarmed USN ship flying a US flag and just listening to what was going on? Target practice.
 
2012-11-21 06:24:47 AM

meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?


It is "funny" how the deep, systemic hate for the jews permeates most of the world.
The problem with "legitimate grievances" is that in the end, all countries exist on the backs of the original inhabitants. Such to be on the losing side of a war. You typically lose your land and rights.

While we might want to live in a world where that is true, the reality is that that is what we got.
What percentage of Amerikans are willing to give the US back to the natives?
Why not? We stole it from them.

And yet, people continue to make the argument that "THIS IS DIFFERENT".
Sure, it is different because it is happening today and it is the EVIL JEWS doing it.

Counter position, how many countries which are current controled by muslims, would like their country back and the muslims gone? Malaysia? Indonesia?

How are these different? Other than they happened 7-800 years ago?
Are only new land grabs bad? Really?
Are we only going to "right" recent wrongs?

What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?
They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.
NVM
 
2012-11-21 06:25:55 AM

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


Then turn off the feature. {NEWSFLASH} you are biatching about something you could fix in 11 seconds.
 
2012-11-21 06:26:24 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: I'm slightly confused though. Only injuries? What sort of attack was this, exactly? Some sort of IED they left on the bus and detonated remotely? Or a suicide bombing?


they said it wasnt a suicide bomb. ied or timer. and was clearly a POS bomb.
Credit to the Israelis and their wonderful WALL for keeping the suicide bombers out of their country.
 
2012-11-21 06:26:26 AM

cman: They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.


Aren't all Israeli citizens required to serve at least one year in the IDF? Aren't all Israelis thus soldiers, former soldiers, or future soldiers?

Are we just going to call anyone who isn't holding a live weapon *right now* a civilian?
 
2012-11-21 06:26:52 AM
By the way, that jeep hit with the ATGM... holy Christ, I'm amazed anyone survived. Any update on those poor fellows?
 
2012-11-21 06:28:14 AM

namatad: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

It is "funny" how the deep, systemic hate for the jews permeates most of the world.
The problem with "legitimate grievances" is that in the end, all countries exist on the backs of the original inhabitants. Such to be on the losing side of a war. You typically lose your land and rights.

While we might want to live in a world where that is true, the reality is that that is what we got.
What percentage of Amerikans are willing to give the US back to the natives?
Why not? We stole it from them.

And yet, people continue to make the argument that "THIS IS DIFFERENT".
Sure, it is different because it is happening today and it is the EVIL JEWS doing it.

Counter position, how many countries which are current controled by muslims, would like their country back and the muslims gone? Malaysia? Indonesia?

How are these different? Other than they happened 7-800 years ago?
Are only new land grabs bad? Really?
Are we only going to "right" recent wrongs?

What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?
They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.
NVM


I think it probably has more to do with failing to give the Palestinians true citizenship and power within the country they are rapidly becoming the majority in and instead sticking them all into a tiny sliver of land from which they have no possible escape.

Nah, it must just be that people hate the evil Jews.
 
2012-11-21 06:29:36 AM
From Al Jazeera:


Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said the bus explosion in Tel Aviv "is a natural result for the Israeli aggression" in Gaza.

"Israeli, by killing the Palestinian civilians, wanted these consequences and this is what we have warned from," Barhoum said. "If the Israel continues its aggression then all the optioned are opened. "
 
2012-11-21 06:31:22 AM
From another thread supporting isreal without being racist.



1 Don't use any kind of slur. This should be an absolute no-brainer. If you ever feel the need to call anyone a slur, shut the fark up immediately and go jump in the nearest lake.
Don't call Palestinians "animals" or "savages." This is a dehumanizing tactic, used to justify or diminish attacks against Palestinians on grounds that they aren't really human and don't require the same consideration as people like us. This is racist. Always. In every context.

2 Don't claim Palestinians don't really love their children or don't really value human life. Another dehumanizing tactic is to point to "unnatural" behavior on the part of the targeted group as proof that they are less human.Don't do it. The fact that anyone can repeat this claim even after the front page pictures of Jihad Masharawi carrying his son Omar just boggles my mind.

3 Don't claim Palestinian children are "taught to hate" or somehow less innocent than other children. Another dehumanizing tactic, and a particularly disgusting one, as it's typically used to downplay the deaths of Palestinian children. If you feel the need to say that the deaths of certain children aren't really 44as sad as others, ever, you need to walk away from the discussion at hand.

4 Don't say "Muslim" when you mean Palestinian. I see this a lot. Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but there are plenty of Palestinian Christians, too, as well as other groups. (There were even Palestinian Jews, whose communities predated British control of the area, although needless to say they are now Israelis rather than Palestinians in the current sense.) Not all Palestinians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Palestinian. They aren't interchangeable terms.

5 Don't say "Arab" when you mean Palestinian. Arab is a wider term, encompassing an entire ethnic group and bloc of countries. Palestinians are a distinct group within the Pan-Arab world, with their own unique culture, customs, and Arabic dialect. Use the appropriate term in the appropriate context, rather than making blanket statements about wider groups than you intend.

6 Don't claim Islam is inherently violent and evil. People who believe this are comparing Islam as practiced in poverty-stricken areas to Christianity or Judaism as practiced in affluent areas. See the problem there? People who are poor and oppressed, on the whole, engage in more violence and subscribe to more extremist forms of religions-regardless of what religions they practice, because the real problem isn't the religion, it's the poverty and oppression.Attacking an entire religion in this way is not only based on apples-to-oranges nonsense, but tinged with racism as well. (Before you protest that last assertion, look up just how many of the Islamic practices people freak out about are also practiced by Jews, then see if you can still come up with a reason for attacking only Islam that doesn't rest on the fact that the stereotypical Jew is white-passing but the stereotypical Muslim is not.)

7 Don't say or imply that all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorists. It's not true, and it smacks of dehumanizing ("we don't need to treat them with the same consideration we give people like us because they're inherently evil and violent"). I'm betting many of you would rather not be judged by some of the actions of your current government, so don't do the same thing to others.

8 Don't use any variant of the "we made the desert bloom" trope. This is basically the same racist argument European settlers in the Americas used-claiming they deserved the land because they made better use of it than the people whose land it originally was. In fact, Palestinians were farming, tending orchards, and raising livestock on the land well before Israel existed. Even if they weren't, "I took it because I could make better use of it" wouldn't get you off a theft charge in court, so why is it relevant here?

9 Don't use any variant of the "a land without a people for a people without a land" trope. See the previous point. There were most definitely people on the land before Israel. To deny that is to erase the existence of Palestinians and their history. Erasure of a culture is never okay.

10 Don't claim there is "no such thing" as Palestine or Palestinians. This also applies to people who put Palestine and Palestinian in quotation marks. Quibbling with the terms people choose to describe themselves and their culture is another form of erasure. Palestinians obviously exist. You don't have the right to decide what they can and can't call themselves.

11 Don't say Palestinians have no historical connection to the land or should go back to "their real countries." Again, Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country. Once again, the words Palestinian and Arab are not interchangeable. Just because Palestinians are Arab doesn't mean they have the same culture and history as Arabs in other countries, any more than being a white American gives someone the same culture and history as white Europeans.

12 Don'tcall Palestinians "Amalek" or cite Torah/Bible verses calling for the extermination of non-Jewish groups in Canaan. Calling for genocide isn't remotely farking acceptable, ever, and couching it in religion doesn't make it any more so. I can't believe I even have to say this. STOP.

13 Don't visually depict Palestinians using Arab racial stereotypes. Don't sexualize or exoticize Palestinian women.

14 Don't portray Palestinian men as leering, claw-fingered, keffiyah-and-robe-wearing, hook-nosed villains with bombs strapped to their chests. Avoid using camels, tents, or polygamy imagery.

15 Don't demand that Palestinians or their allies take public note of Israeli casualties, affirm Israel's right to exist, or publicly repudiate Hamas.People who make this demand are assuming that Palestinians are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they "prove" themselves acceptable by Zionists' standards.

16 Don't blow off Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims if they tell you what you are saying is racist or Islamophobic. Not all pro-Israel speech is racist, but some undeniably is. Actually give the accusation your consideration and hear the accuser out. If they fail to convince you, that's fine. But at least hear them out (without talking over them) before you decide that.
 
2012-11-21 06:33:11 AM

namatad: What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?
They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.
NVM


The Kurds have the unfortunate reality of existing as either a significant minority or outright plurality within the borders of several different nations; in so doing, they've created a mutual, vested interest in several of the region's major powers (Iran, Turkey, Syria and formerly Iraq) of keeping them stateless and disenfranchised. Palestinians have certainly been suppressed by their Arab brethren (see Black October, al Assad's father slaughter of the Muslim Brotherhood) but they also serve a useful purpose to most of the region's governments: a source of distraction. They're the reverse of the Kurds, whereby everyone wants to use them a proxy rather than fearing to do so.
 
2012-11-21 06:33:25 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist.


Spoilsport
 
2012-11-21 06:35:04 AM

cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


So... when the Israelis kicked people out of their own homes/country, they have the right to fight back? Got it.
 
2012-11-21 06:35:49 AM
Lighten up people!

Leave Otto alone!


simpsonspedia.net
 
2012-11-21 06:38:39 AM

INeedAName: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

So... when the Israelis kicked people out of their own homes/country, they have the right to fight back? Got it.


Gotta give you props on your wit.
 
2012-11-21 06:38:40 AM

namatad: Why not? We stole it from them.


and the Mexicans
 
2012-11-21 06:39:14 AM
Fark religion.
 
2012-11-21 06:40:19 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist.

Spoilsport


don't worry, hardly anyone will change their behavior =( especially not the rabble-rousers. I just want the contingent of FARk that has a brain AND uses it to mule over those ideas.
 
2012-11-21 06:41:01 AM
narwhaler.com
 
2012-11-21 06:41:26 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.


Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.
But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.
If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!
2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.
So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."
Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.
 
2012-11-21 06:41:31 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: 15 Don't demand that Palestinians or their allies take public note of Israeli casualties, affirm Israel's right to exist


I sort of think that believing the other party exists is the first step in successful arbitration.
 
2012-11-21 06:41:41 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: namatad: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

It is "funny" how the deep, systemic hate for the jews permeates most of the world.
The problem with "legitimate grievances" is that in the end, all countries exist on the backs of the original inhabitants. Such to be on the losing side of a war. You typically lose your land and rights.

While we might want to live in a world where that is true, the reality is that that is what we got.
What percentage of Amerikans are willing to give the US back to the natives?
Why not? We stole it from them.

And yet, people continue to make the argument that "THIS IS DIFFERENT".
Sure, it is different because it is happening today and it is the EVIL JEWS doing it.

Counter position, how many countries which are current controled by muslims, would like their country back and the muslims gone? Malaysia? Indonesia?

How are these different? Other than they happened 7-800 years ago?
Are only new land grabs bad? Really?
Are we only going to "right" recent wrongs?

What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?
They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.
NVM

I think it probably has more to do with failing to give the Palestinians true citizenship and power within the country they are rapidly becoming the majority in and instead sticking them all into a tiny sliver of land from which they have no possible escape.

Nah, it must just be that people hate the evil Jews.


The Palestinians had a country until they tried to have a revolution inside that country. If I were Israeli leadership I believe I would have to demonstrate what actual ethnic cleansing looks like in Gaza then ask WB if they are ready to sign a treaty. The world would whine for a bit but the world whines a bit whenefer Israel gets fed up with constant attacks and does anything to stop it so they might as well take the hit all at once and be done with it. Or we can continue on this merry go round of death ad infinitum.
 
2012-11-21 06:42:38 AM
How the fark did I get into this thread
 
2012-11-21 06:43:38 AM
OY!
 
2012-11-21 06:44:50 AM

namatad: Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.
But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.
If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!
2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.
So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."
Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.


I wont be happy until the Canaanites have their land back and the walls of Jericho are rebuilt by those damn Jews
 
2012-11-21 06:44:56 AM

INeedAName:
So... when the Israelis kicked people out of their own homes/country, they have the right to fight back? Got it.


Yes they do have the right to fight back. However indiscriminate attacks on civilians is not 'fighting back'. Attack the army, attack the settlers, attack the people responsible, encourage sanctions, pursue legal actions, etc, etc would all be at least valid.

Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks.
 
2012-11-21 06:45:26 AM

cman: Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.


Israeli attacks kill so many civilians that it makes no difference whether they're targeting them or not.

i560.photobucket.com

/no, I'm not defending hamas
//not the rockets either
 
2012-11-21 06:47:01 AM

cman: namatad: Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.
But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.
If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!
2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.
So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."
Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.

I wont be happy until the Canaanites have their land back and the walls of Jericho are rebuilt by those damn Jews


No can haz. Canaantes were wiped out so that sucks for them. But it was definitely genocide which is what that actually looks like. None left.
 
2012-11-21 06:47:31 AM

meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism


You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.
 
2012-11-21 06:47:56 AM

Uncle Tractor: cman: Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Israeli attacks kill so many civilians that it makes no difference whether they're targeting them or not.

[i560.photobucket.com image 580x450]

/no, I'm not defending hamas
//not the rockets either


Just because ones side has shiatty weapons does not negate the fact that they are using weapons
 
2012-11-21 06:49:14 AM

Uncle Tractor: cman: Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Israeli attacks kill so many civilians that it makes no difference whether they're targeting them or not.

[i560.photobucket.com image 580x450]

/no, I'm not defending hamas
//not the rockets either


Sucking at war doesn't forgive intent.
 
2012-11-21 06:50:14 AM
I imagine that when the aliens come and take over the planet, it will look kind of like the Israelis vs the Palestinian wars.
 
2012-11-21 06:51:07 AM

meep3d: Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.


I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.
 
2012-11-21 06:51:26 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I imagine that when the aliens come and take over the planet, it will look kind of like the Israelis vs the Palestinian wars.


yep pretty much. then it will just suck to be human instead of a specific group.
 
2012-11-21 06:52:08 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: They're the reverse of the Kurds, whereby everyone wants to use them a proxy rather than fearing to do so.


Yup. Everyone is using them. The other arab-muslim nations LOVE them as a focus of the radical hatred.
The Israelis LOVE them as a focus keeping the orthodox and moderate jews attention on the common enemy.
Anti-semites LOVE them as a focus for WHY it is ok to still hate the jews.
and on and on and on
 
2012-11-21 06:52:12 AM

DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.


What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.
 
2012-11-21 06:52:32 AM

Uncle Tractor: meep3d: Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.


Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there.
 
2012-11-21 06:56:28 AM

meep3d: Yes they do have the right to fight back. However indiscriminate attacks on civilians is not 'fighting back'. Attack the army, attack the settlers, attack the people responsible, encourage sanctions, pursue legal actions, etc, etc would all be at least valid.


In the end, war is war and innocent people are going to die. It is not like Hamas is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and it isnt like EVERYONE who did sign hasnt broken those conventions when it suited their needs.

In the end, no matter how much we would like civilized wars, wars will always be hell.

Attacking those other targets will never help hama meet their needs. They need the average israeli to want to stop the violence. attacking the army is too far from home. Only by bringing the fight home can they get the impact they want.

not that it has worked at all ... LOL
 
2012-11-21 06:56:30 AM

meep3d: What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.


What I post in all these threads these days:

From the israeli side:
1: Officially declare Gaza and the WB part of Israel.
2: Give everybody who lives there (arab and jew) full rights as israeli citizens.

From the palestinian side:
1: Give up the notion of a palestinian state. Not gonna happen.
2: As de facto israeli citizens, demand the right to vote and run for office in israeli elections.

No, it won't immediately become a land of milk and honey, but it's pretty much inevitable at this point. The two-state solution is dead and the status quo won't last much longer.
 
2012-11-21 06:57:45 AM

cman: Uncle Tractor: meep3d: Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.

Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there anywhere.


FTFY
 
2012-11-21 06:58:07 AM
Israel has a right to defend itself so it is OK to bomb Gaza.
The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves so it is OK to bomb Israel.

These people shooting each other are just exercising their rights.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:27 AM
So, Hamas is using the tactics the Israelis used against Great Britain. Whatevs, they're way over there. Can't see that shiat from my house.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:30 AM

meep3d: DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.




The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:46 AM

cman: Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there.


I want today's Israel gone too. Gone like apartheid SA is gone. No, this doesn't mean kicking the jews out.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:58 AM

meep3d: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?




Lemme see your teeth, drinking that much Kool-aid has to be giving you some nasty cavities.


Here are some links

Documents indicate Israel has limited food for Gaza to minimum survival levels since 2007

Holocaust survivor says Israeli government's acts makes Palestinians "victims of ethnic cleansing and apartheid."

Jan 2012 law creates what Israeli citizens describe as "concentration camps" for non-Jewish asylum seekers.

Weeks before the "rocket attacks" from Gaza to Israel, Israeli soldiers kill 13-year-old boy playing soccer and Israeli soldiers shoot "mentally deranged" unarmed man who got too close to the DMZ "buffer zone" around Gaza, then refused requests by emergency personnel who attempted to provide medical assistance.



But you go ahead and cling to your technicality whereby Gaza isn't "occupied" because the troops don't stay for more than 24 hours at a time, even tho' no one is allowed to leave and citizens are killed every time the troops come in.
 
2012-11-21 07:01:48 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist


17. Learn how to spell "Israel."

I sympathize with the Arab cause, I feel for the put-upon Jews. And I keep singing the middle class liberal, well-intentioned blues.
 
2012-11-21 07:02:19 AM

DarnoKonrad:
The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.


It's always been my opinion that a two state solution is the only workable outcome (three if you count turning Jerusalem into an autonomous city state). I honestly don't see either side ever accepting a one state solution, not for a generation or so at least anyway.
 
2012-11-21 07:04:30 AM

meep3d: DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.


and that has been the problem. there is currently NO solution which is agreeable to both side.
the unilateral WALL stopped the suicide attacks. (certainly all of the massive ones)
 
2012-11-21 07:05:05 AM
I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.
 
2012-11-21 07:06:06 AM

meep3d: DarnoKonrad:
The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.

It's always been my opinion that a two state solution is the only workable outcome (three if you count turning Jerusalem into an autonomous city state). I honestly don't see either side ever accepting a one state solution, not for a generation or so at least anyway.



Well it took Ireland almost 100 years to put down their weapons.  So yea, at least another generation.
 
2012-11-21 07:06:17 AM
This thread is all so stupid. The bombing in question wasn't even claimed by Hamas - they're not taking responsibility, they're just saying....
 
2012-11-21 07:07:29 AM
The only way to win this war is to make it so costly that the arabs decide to cease and desist on their own. America has grown too decidedly feminine, fat and comfortable to possess the mental fortitude necessary to accomplish this. Israel sees this, and knows that it is pretty much on their own. In fact, it sees that Obama is now going to underwrite the purchase of over $100 million in new weapons for Hamas. Is it any wonder that Israel doesn't want a cease fire? A cease fire is only a chance for Hamas to purchase and position new weaponry at their leisure.
 
2012-11-21 07:08:02 AM

MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.




Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.
 
2012-11-21 07:08:51 AM

MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.


Yeah, how about "no"
 
2012-11-21 07:11:38 AM
Weeeeeeee


#Israel Dep Speaker Danny Danon: "It is time to declare war...the time for restraint is over." #Gaza
- Lauren E. Bohn (@LaurenBohn) November 21, 2012

 
2012-11-21 07:12:09 AM

DataShade: MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.



Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.


The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.
 
2012-11-21 07:12:11 AM

DataShade: MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.



Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.


Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.
 
2012-11-21 07:13:25 AM

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


The last time was 2006.
 
2012-11-21 07:18:42 AM

yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.




This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.
 
2012-11-21 07:19:01 AM
Just let them build casinos already!
 
2012-11-21 07:21:48 AM

namatad: Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.
But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.
If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!
2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.
So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."
Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.


Israel is a country that exits and will continue to exist no matter how hard some people in the ME want to wish it away. The people of Israel are well entitled to continue to live in Israel. This is fact, both in a humanitarian sense and in compliance with international customs and law.

The problem is that the nation of Israel, as it exists today, is young. Israel has put up with implicit and explicit threats to her very existence since 1948. Part of the difficulty stems from the purge of the Palestinians that didn't want to deal with them--some of them are still alive. Their kids are alive. Israel's policies supporting their settler movement aren't helping heal any old wounds. Gaza has been taken over by Hamas, a group whose stated their goals of Israel's destruction and is perfectly OK with using terrorism to accomplish, well, something. It certainly won't be the destruction of Israel.

When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

It's a shame; the people of Israel don't deserve to live a life of exploding buses and evacuating areas because of shiatty rocket attacks at random intervals-you shouldn't have to face the possibility of someone blowing you up on the way to school no matter where you live. The people in the West Bank shouldn't be harassed by settlers and just because you're born in that area, you cannot travel, you cannot leave--you're effectively imprisoned through poverty and no nation, no passport, no wealth and no options. Houses shouldn't be bulldozed because the occupational authority just doesn't want you around and given the population density of the Gaza Strip, there's no way innocent people aren't going to pay for the recalcitrance of their governing body. A two-year-old doesn't know who's running shiat and has no way of shaming the bad actors into putting their rocket launchers elsewhere.

It took us almost two hundred years to get to where we are with the native nations. I hope Israel and the Palestinians don't take that long for their own sakes.
 
2012-11-21 07:23:40 AM

cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.


At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.
 
2012-11-21 07:25:32 AM

yousaywut: The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.


No two situations are ever the same, that's a meaningless attempt at distinction. You go on believing that your feeble exceptionalism justifies genocide.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:10 AM

cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

 

Some man breaks into your house, you open up on him with a machine gun, the bullets shred him to paste, overpenetrate, and kill people sleeping in the house across the street, you're going to be charged for manslaughter.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:32 AM

dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.


The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:36 AM

MmmmBacon: Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.


"Want them off their island," not *blowing up buses to get them off their island." I'm going to need a citation on the rape gang reference because I wasn't aware of any such act as a form of political policy.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:51 AM
Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.
 
2012-11-21 07:27:39 AM

DataShade: cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.

At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.


You are pretty shiatty at twisting words.
 
2012-11-21 07:28:44 AM
Hamas: Not us, but rather Fatah under Abbas responsible for suicide bombing (channel 2)
 
2012-11-21 07:30:48 AM
Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.
 
2012-11-21 07:33:37 AM

DataShade: cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.

At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.


Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.
 
2012-11-21 07:37:34 AM

DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.


Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.
 
2012-11-21 07:40:03 AM

DarnoKonrad: dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.


There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.
 
2012-11-21 07:41:04 AM

deffuse: Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.


Propaganda for domestic consumption. If Iran were truly interested in "aiding" their erstwhile allies in Gaza they would simply instruct their northern proxy--Hezbollah--to unleash it's substantially more capable arsenal against Israel.
 
2012-11-21 07:41:34 AM

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


No they won't. You say this every time, then the IDF walks in to a meat grinder, achieves some nebulous goal that accomplishes nothing, and you declare victory until it happens again in a few months.
 
2012-11-21 07:43:42 AM

DataShade: MmmmBacon: Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.

"Want them off their island," not *blowing up buses to get them off their island." I'm going to need a citation on the rape gang reference because I wasn't aware of any such act as a form of political policy.


I didn't say the rape gangs were political policy. They are the result of the failing state South Africa is degenerating into. Not exactly a successful solution to Apartheid, is it? In fact SA is pretty much in chaos outside of Johannesburg. That was my point.

And as for Ireland, yes, there are still factions of the IRA that would love to blow the hell out of some Brits in Northern Ireland. Just because they haven't in a few years doesn't mean they won't become more organized and start activities again. You know, like there are lulls in bus bombings in Israel from time to time?

Just saying.
 
2012-11-21 07:43:58 AM
If only there were some kind of final solution to it all.
 
2012-11-21 07:44:20 AM
Israel should start dropping big 2,000 pound bombs on Gaza. Continue until nothing is left. Putting rabid animals down is a good thing.
 
2012-11-21 07:44:53 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: deffuse: Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.

Propaganda for domestic consumption. If Iran were truly interested in "aiding" their erstwhile allies in Gaza they would simply instruct their northern proxy--Hezbollah--to unleash it's substantially more capable arsenal against Israel.


Iran only gives a shiat about the Palestinians so long as they can use them to further their own ends of keeping their people in line hating on Israel. They're not any different than any other regional Israel-hating countries. Nobody around there gives a legitimate shiat about them, but they're really handy to use to keep their own crazies in line.
 
2012-11-21 07:45:48 AM

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Whenever anyway says "the mood in" anyplace is whatever I always question it. I somehow doubt that's the mood of everyone, but I can see how it would be your mood and it's actually my mood too even though I sit here comfortably halfway around the world with no fear of rockets landing anywhere near my home.

This shiat has been going on my whole life. It's actually been going on longer than my life, but there has never been a time in my life when there was not violence in the Middle East and very often it happens in Israel. Whether it's suicide bombers or Hamas or Hezbollah lobbing rockets into Israel it's been a constant theme. Many efforts for peace have been made and this latest round of violence proves the point that it's not working. I don't want US troops involved, but I do think Israel should invade Gaza and put an end to this shiat once and for all. That may be an unrealistic idea or it may not be. The only thing I'm sure of is that the status quo isn't working out too well,
 
2012-11-21 07:46:26 AM

dr_blasto: DarnoKonrad: dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.

There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.



S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.
 
2012-11-21 07:46:29 AM
Now, what brought this on?
 
2012-11-21 07:47:46 AM

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Not unless Israel plans a genocidal clearance of Gaza. At the end of the day, making more martyrs has never solved anything, ever.
 
2012-11-21 07:49:08 AM
"News flash"? Has fark not go an "Inevitable" tag?
 
2012-11-21 07:49:09 AM

Shatner's Bassoon: Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.

Not unless Israel plans a genocidal clearance of Gaza. At the end of the day, making more martyrs has never solved anything, ever.


At the end of the day you get nothing for nothing.
 
2012-11-21 07:49:16 AM

Thunderpipes: Israel should start dropping big 2,000 pound bombs on Gaza. Continue until nothing is left. Putting rabid animals down is a good thing.


No, it isn't a good thing. It's horrible. Those are people living in Gaza, you know? People with children and parents, people just trying to live their lives. Unfortunately, some of those people are zealots and don't mind endangering their neighbors in the pursuit of their cause.

You are right, carpet-bombing Gaza would in fact work to stop the rockets from coming from there. But no sane human would ever do that. Ever.
 
2012-11-21 07:50:06 AM

DataShade: yousaywut: The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.

No two situations are ever the same, that's a meaningless attempt at distinction. You go on believing that your feeble exceptionalism justifies genocide.


Justifies? Nope I don't believe it justifies genocide. What may be made necessary is an entirely different story. There will come a point when these two groups are going to go all out and either one side will completely destroy the other (genocide) or they will have finally had enough death and reach some kind of peace. But I am willing to bet that the death toll from one side or the other is going to be over 20% before the second option ever gets seriously considered. This does not justify anything. It is just my realistic look at the area that hasn't known true peace in forever and almost everyone has a family member hurt or killed by the violence. and pretty much everyone knows someone in the same situation.

/People can become desensitized to anything including death and violence which would make the necessary death toll higher than in other parts of the world for the same willingness to find a way to peace.
 
2012-11-21 07:50:13 AM

Happy Hours: Whenever anyway says "the mood in" anyplace is whatever I always question it. I somehow doubt that's the mood of everyone, but I can see how it would be your mood and it's actually my mood too even though I sit here comfortably halfway around the world with no fear of rockets landing anywhere near my home.


Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Happy Hours: but I do think Israel should invade Gaza and put an end to this shiat once and for all. That may be an unrealistic idea or it may not be. The only thing I'm sure of is that the status quo isn't working out too well,


Pretty much the only option left. Either we go in and deal with Hamas once and for all, or well we're just going o be doing that again in a few years
 
2012-11-21 07:52:52 AM

yousaywut: DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.

Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.




It appears to me you have some series biases here; you're really oversimplifying and you seem unwilling to distinguish Hamas from the situation in the occupied territories as a whole. The only way to marginalize Hamas is to politically enfranchise people. As long as they don't have political representation to exercise their power, the extremists will exercise power through violence. And they're not going to get political representation so long as the occupied territories are fiats of Israel.

Beyond that I can't see why you're rationalizing the status quo. Do you honestly think this situation is sustainable like this?
 
2012-11-21 07:53:08 AM

Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.


I saw the same from Rasmussen.

Landslide imminent.
 
2012-11-21 07:53:45 AM

Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.


Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.
 
2012-11-21 07:54:19 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


Yea they just target the spot on top of apartment buildings where a terrorist was 20 minutes ago
 
2012-11-21 07:56:50 AM

Tatsuma: Pretty much the only option left. Either we go in and deal with Hamas once and for all, or well we're just going o be doing that again in a few years


But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all? It isn't like they have a problem hiding amongst civilian populations. Unless every able-bodied man in Gaza is captured or killed, you won't get them all. Plus what of those who inevitably sneak out into Egypt? And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.
 
2012-11-21 07:57:01 AM
War is coming.
 
2012-11-21 07:58:07 AM

metalliqaz: War is here.


FTFY.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:02 AM
Remember when you were young, and fighting with your older brother, and then your mom or dad stopped you. You both said "He started it!" and pointed at each other. And then your parent said "I don't care who started it, stop it!"
 
2012-11-21 08:00:29 AM

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Indeed. Terrorism cannot and should not be tolerated.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:54 AM

DarnoKonrad: S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.


True, project out a hundred years and Israel may well be a very different looking nation. I think it really depends on how many Palestinians are left. If the more belligerent types on either side of the conflict get full control then there may not be any Palestinians. The more violence thrown by Palestinians toward Israelis, the more likely Israel is going to put more hawkish people in charge to deal with it.

Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:59 AM
Waking up to news like this is a horrible way to wake up.
 
2012-11-21 08:01:53 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.


NPR reported this yesterday as well.
 
2012-11-21 08:02:44 AM

DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.

Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.



It appears to me you have some series biases here; you're really oversimplifying and you seem unwilling to distinguish Hamas from the situation in the occupied territories as a whole. The only way to marginalize Hamas is to politically enfranchise people. As long as they don't have political representation to exercise their power, the extremists will exercise power through violence. And they're not going to get political representation so long as ...


I won't deny bias because we all hve them. It's human nature and all that.

Of course I am oversimplifying this is Fark not a discertation on poli sci re: Israel/Palestine relations. There will always be nuances that I will never understand because I don't live there. Do you? (real question not a snark). Hamas was marginilized then they went all fark the police and killed off the local governing bodies and took over. Yes they were voted in to some positions but there was legitimate opposition with a pretty solid voting base until Hamas killed them off or kicked them out to WB. Enfranchising Palestinians (non-Hamas) right now will just get them killed. How do you propose to work around that one?

I am not rationalizing the status quo just challenging pie in the sky responses that have no chance of working in the real world. (hoping someone somehow will come up with something that might actually work). The situation is going to explode eventually so no not sustainable.
 
2012-11-21 08:03:55 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.


Do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men.
 
2012-11-21 08:06:00 AM

MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?


Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.


Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.
 
2012-11-21 08:06:21 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.


Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:10 AM

MmmmBacon: And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.


But as it stands now regarding those who would do that, they will join Hamas when they grow up either way. Might as well get 20 years of solid calm for both sides and give peace an actual chance.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:16 AM

paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.


My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:41 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own'


Over there, nonviolence doesn't stop violence either. It doesn't matter if they attack first, if they attack in response, or not attack at all. Hamas isn't going to stop the rocket and bomb attacks.
 
2012-11-21 08:11:49 AM

metalliqaz: War is coming.


It kind of looks looks like war is already there from what I can tell.

Apparently we all just cannot get along.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:08 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.


So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society? They obviously don't want them to have a state, that makes taking the land a messier prospect. And everyone knows goddamn well they aren't going to be welcomed in to Israel even if they laid down their guns and cut off their trigger fingers as penance, it would wreck the Jewish majority.

There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:09 AM

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


In this particular instance, I would tend to disagree - mostly because it is highlighting that things are escalating, not so much even the bombing itself.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:10 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.

My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.


You win, I've read that a number of times and end up being only able to think of Jar Jar Binks. That cannot be a good sign.
 
2012-11-21 08:14:34 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?

Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.


Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.


I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible. This will be very messy, and unless Israel can win the hearts and minds of the civilian populous, it won't have much of a chance of complete success. Some success, sure. But the total dismantling of Hamas forever? I find that hard to believe, under the circumstances.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:00 AM

paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.

My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.

You win, I've read that a number of times and end up being only able to think of Jar Jar Binks. That cannot be a good sign.


Sorry. I forget sometimes we have international readers.

A few days ago, Tats claimed Haaretz was not indicative of any sort of zeitgeist within Israel because of its low circulation numbers (4%, if my memory serves me). Today he is using it as evidence of an overwhelming wave of anti-Hamas sentiment within Israel.

So is the paper credible or not? He wants to have it both ways.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:10 AM

Tatsuma: Re-occupying Gaza temporarily


This. Israel can hit major targets all day long, but there will still be minor outposts that will fire rockets into their country.

It's going to upset a lot of people, but invasion AND occupation seem in order.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:52 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society? They obviously don't want them to have a state, that makes taking the land a messier prospect. And everyone knows goddamn well they aren't going to be welcomed in to Israel even if they laid down their guns and cut off their trigger fingers as penance, it would wreck the Jewish majority.

There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.


I don't think that Israel is a bunch of genocidal maniacs. If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself. Israel would have to deal with them, they would be forced to behave as the situation wouldn't be a matter of fighting for survival on their part. I don't think Israelis would allow their government to go all Tienanmen-squarey on a thousand peaceful Palestinians.

The problem is the other actors in the region don't give a fark about the plight of the Palestinians and will continue to co-opt whatever happens to apply violence and keep the status quo.
 
2012-11-21 08:18:10 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.

But as it stands now regarding those who would do that, they will join Hamas when they grow up either way. Might as well get 20 years of solid calm for both sides and give peace an actual chance.


That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.
 
2012-11-21 08:20:21 AM

Happy Hours: Tatsuma: Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

This. Israel can hit major targets all day long, but there will still be minor outposts that will fire rockets into their country.

It's going to upset a lot of people, but invasion AND occupation seem in order.


I don't think Hamas has the manpower
 
2012-11-21 08:20:27 AM
Sort of off-topic, but everyone should watch the movie "Paradise Now." Interesting portrayal of the Israel-Palestine conflict, somewhat one-sided nonetheless.
 
2012-11-21 08:21:15 AM

cman: You are pretty shiatty at twisting words.


Is that what I'm doing? Because here I thought you literally just went into apologia-mode and claimed that it's OK that Israel disproportionately kill civilians because it's difficult to determine who is and isn't a combatant, and they know that, but they choose to proceed anyways.
 
2012-11-21 08:21:23 AM

Shakin_Haitian: Isn't it weird how the Palestinians with decades old weapons technology are just as accurate as Israel is with modern weapons technology?


You must have missed yesterday's thread about Hamas accidentally hitting one of their own buildings with a rocket.
 
2012-11-21 08:22:07 AM

MmmmBacon: I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible.


No, it will actually be possible for two reasons:

1 - We know very well who they are
2 - They can't hide anywhere outside of Gaza


Seeing as Gaza is small, it will be possible to do this, but this is a 3-9 months where you will have casualties in the four digits category (most of them fighters)
 
2012-11-21 08:24:54 AM

MmmmBacon: That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.


Yeah but Israel will do something that will drastically reduce the possibilities of that happening:

immediately retaking the Philadelphi corridor. Probably permanently at this point. I also hope they built a 200 feet deep moat and fill it with crocodiles. Try to have smuggling tunnels there, assholes.
 
2012-11-21 08:25:02 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society?


It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.
 
2012-11-21 08:25:16 AM

dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.


I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.
 
2012-11-21 08:27:03 AM
Both sides have so much blood on their hands, the right/wrong argument is really irrelevant at this point. The only thing that matters is who can win.

If Netanyahu decides to let the Israeli army off the chain, the arab population in that region will be reduced by very signficant numbers.
 
2012-11-21 08:27:49 AM

Happy Hours: It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.


If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

They are their own worst enemies.
 
2012-11-21 08:31:18 AM

Happy Hours: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society?

It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.


It wouldn't happen at all, ever, for any reason. There is little in it for Israel, and they view that land as some kind of birthright.
 
2012-11-21 08:32:07 AM

Tatsuma: Happy Hours: It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.

If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

They are their own worst enemies.


Well, next to the people who herded them into ghettos and stole their land and destroyed their businesses, yes.
 
2012-11-21 08:32:24 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible.

No, it will actually be possible for two reasons:

1 - We know very well who they are
2 - They can't hide anywhere outside of Gaza


Seeing as Gaza is small, it will be possible to do this, but this is a 3-9 months where you will have casualties in the four digits category (most of them fighters)


I would be impressed to see that happen.

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.

Yeah but Israel will do something that will drastically reduce the possibilities of that happening:

immediately retaking the Philadelphi corridor. Probably permanently at this point. I also hope they built a 200 feet deep moat and fill it with crocodiles. Try to have smuggling tunnels there, assholes.


That would make tunnels less-than-viable.
 
2012-11-21 08:34:29 AM

MmmmBacon: Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.


There's almost nothing correct about your entire description.

Back in 2006, Israel and the US pressured the PNA into holding new elections because they thought they could achieve a sort of "regime change" and get the (then US-friendly) Fatah a full sweep of the Palestinian parliament; instead, Hamas won a significant majority. Israel and the US refused to recognize the election (and has since refused to allow any further elections). Fatah was given shipments of arms from the US government to defeat the democratically elected Palestinian government, and started a Palestinian civil war, which ended up with the West Bank controlled by US-friendly (but perceived corrupt) Palestinian politicians, with Hamas holed up in Gaza.

Israel has proceeded to use the pretext of violent unrest to block shipments of food and medicine to Gaza, launch military raids into civilian centers, and assassinate elected leaders.


Now Hamas is making desperate attempts to fight back and you're saying "well, they started it!" That's crazy-talk.
 
2012-11-21 08:34:39 AM
Hamas isn't Hezbollah. It doesn't have the direct and overt Iranian backing, access to an arsenal of modern ATGMs and munitions or the advantageous mountainous terrain enjoyed by the latter group.
 
2012-11-21 08:35:18 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.


Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat? The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.
 
2012-11-21 08:36:09 AM

MmmmBacon: I would be impressed to see that happen.


The mood on the ground here is basically 'let's take off the gloves'. This is what taking off the gloves will be like. Now, let's see if Bibi actually goes through with it.

MmmmBacon: That would make tunnels less-than-viable.


Indeed. Moats/Alligator for the Knesset 5773
 
2012-11-21 08:36:27 AM

DataShade: cman: They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Aren't all Israeli citizens required to serve at least one year in the IDF? Aren't all Israelis thus soldiers, former soldiers, or future soldiers?

Are we just going to call anyone who isn't holding a live weapon *right now* a civilian?


Not everyone serves in the military. If you have a religious objection to doing so, or a health reason you can be assigned to work for the government in a non-military role. Not to state the obvious, but kids can't serve in the military and therefore should be classified as 'civilians.'
 
2012-11-21 08:38:11 AM

MmmmBacon: I didn't say the rape gangs were political policy. They are the result of the failing state South Africa is degenerating into. Not exactly a successful solution to Apartheid, is it? In fact SA is pretty much in chaos outside of Johannesburg. That was my point.


As a result of political policy or that little global economic meltdown that's also led to, say, near civil-war conditions in Greece and Spain?


And as for Ireland, yes, there are still factions of the IRA that would love to blow the hell out of some Brits in Northern Ireland. Just because they haven't in a few years doesn't mean they won't become more organized and start activities again. You know, like there are lulls in bus bombings in Israel from time to time?

Just saying.


So you believe in thoughtcrime. OK.
 
2012-11-21 08:38:55 AM

Uncle Tractor: meep3d: What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

What I post in all these threads these days:

From the israeli side:
1: Officially declare Gaza and the WB part of Israel.
2: Give everybody who lives there (arab and jew) full rights as israeli citizens.

From the palestinian side:
1: Give up the notion of a palestinian state. Not gonna happen.
2: As de facto israeli citizens, demand the right to vote and run for office in israeli elections.

No, it won't immediately become a land of milk and honey, but it's pretty much inevitable at this point. The two-state solution is dead and the status quo won't last much longer.


That won't happen, because then the Arabs in the country will outnumber the Jews, and Israel will no longer be a "Jewish state." Of course, there's a name for when an ethnic minority rules over an ethnic majority.
 
2012-11-21 08:39:24 AM
Last night as Anderson Cooper was standing in the middle of Gaza reporting on this, he interviewed a gent from Israel (who is a fellow at a US University) and the gent implied that the US needed to do more -- which I find funny.

For YEARS, folks have been complaining about the US trying to police the world. We finally have a President that takes a step back and is having the rest of the world try and foster a "calm" and folks are clamoring that the US isn't doing enough. We honestly cannot win. The rest of the world needs to own things and tell their neighbors hey stupid, "NIMBY" if they don't like what's going on. The US has enough to deal with without playing parent to two sides who don't want to behave like adults.

I am sorry for the innocent civilians on both sides who are just trying to live their lives, go to their jobs, school and be "normal" whilst all this drama is unfolding. I can't begin to pretend to understand all the intricacies of life in Israel, Palestine / Gaza, but I wish that the cowards that are fostering violence would quit hiding behind innocents and confront one another directly at a negotiating table instead of with bombs / rockets / guns / guns - it solves nothing and only causes loss of life.

To Tatsuma and anyone else living in the region, my thoughts and support go to you through this challenging time. Stay safe and I hope for a resolution that doesn't result in a lot of death and war.
 
2012-11-21 08:40:15 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: It doesn't have the direct and overt Iranian backing


Well actually Iran today just declared proudly that they were providing Hamas with military and financial aid.

Certainly not to the extent they do with Hizbullah though


Hamas did have a drone program going on before Israel destroyed it, and they have fired an anti-aircraft missile recently
 
2012-11-21 08:41:28 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-21 08:43:03 AM
Sometimes, missing the civilians is difficult.

i249.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-21 08:43:39 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?

Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.


Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.


Simple solution: Carpet bomb the place. If they want to booby trap everything, then don't leave anything standing. Call it the '30 second' war or something to that effect.

/Being facetious
 
2012-11-21 08:44:06 AM

dr_blasto: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.

Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.


We can say that of Palestine as well then.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat?

They put right wingers in charge. And they're plenty happy to look the other way in regard to other rather heinous actions in Palestine.

The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.

Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.
 
2012-11-21 08:46:15 AM
Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.


Nobody wants Gaza. Not even the Gazans.
 
2012-11-21 08:46:15 AM

Disgruntled Goat: Or, as they call it in that region, "Wednesday."


I was about to ask if the Obvious tag was on vacation, but I think that's been covered.
 
2012-11-21 08:47:31 AM

kregh99: Both sides have so much blood on their hands, the right/wrong argument is really irrelevant at this point. The only thing that matters is who can win.

If Netanyahu decides to let the Israeli army off the chain, the arab population in that region will be reduced by very signficant numbers.


The highest estimate of IDF KIA that I found was 2800 in the Yom Kippur War and that was a major shock to the Israelis. At this point, Hamas may be in a 'F*ck it, we'll go Stalingrad' position and firing rockets to provoke a ground invasion. Israel can do stand-off, but getting into a house-to-house fight in the midst of 1.5 million Palestinians is probably not a sustainable strategy for them.
 
2012-11-21 08:47:45 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?
Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.
Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield


When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.
 
2012-11-21 08:49:40 AM
Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.


Not even the half of it. Gaza used to have a functioning sewer system (Israeli built, natch).

Hamas dug it up to use the pipes for rockets.

These farkers are so intent on killing they're willing to inflict diarrhea on their own babies.
 
2012-11-21 08:50:34 AM
War. War never changes.
 
2012-11-21 08:52:53 AM

Disgruntled Goat: Or, as they call it in that region, "Wednesday."


That's absurd! They call it Yom Revee´ee.
 
2012-11-21 08:53:08 AM

DataShade: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.


I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.
 
2012-11-21 08:54:13 AM
I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.


And that difference is codified in great detail in the Geneva Conventions, which Israel haters always invoke but never read.
 
2012-11-21 08:56:45 AM
Ireland and Great Britain for the 21st Century.
 
2012-11-21 08:56:48 AM
Guardian reporter Chris McGreal, reporting from Beit Lahiya, Gaza, quotes a Palestinian named Mohammed al-Khoudry:


"I've really tried to understand the Israelis. I used to work on a farm in Israel. I speak Hebrew. I watch their news. All the time they talk about fear. How they have to run to their bunkers to hide from the rockets. How their children can't sleep because of the sirens. This is no
t a good way for them to live," said Khoudry, who now scrapes a living growing his own produce.

"We Palestinians don't talk about fear, we talk about death. Our rockets scare them; their rockets kill us. We have no bomb shelters, we have no sirens, we have nowhere we can take our children and keep them safe. They are scared. We are dying."
 
2012-11-21 08:56:59 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.


You realize that what you're saying is the Palestinians have to produce a leader of the calibre seen only a few times a century or the Israeli government is going to genocide them, but since they haven't done that they get what they deserve?

Why isn't "the US and the international community should prevent Israel from committing genocide" an option? It worked in Serbia, no?
 
2012-11-21 08:57:13 AM

Fibro: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians


It's just one of the world's funny quirks that the people not targeting civilians kill tons more civilians.
 
2012-11-21 08:59:06 AM

Fibro: DataShade: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.

I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.


Does Hamas have sophisticated enough guidance systems to target only military sites? I guess if Israel dropped the blockade of Gaza, Hamas could upgrade, but how likely is that?
 
2012-11-21 08:59:48 AM

DataShade: It worked in Serbia, no?


a fair few people died before the International community stepped in, but yeah.
 
2012-11-21 09:00:37 AM
Does Hamas have sophisticated enough guidance systems to target only military sites?

Hamas has an established track record of timing their rocket attacks at 7:55 AM to maximize the chance of hitting school kids.
If they had guidance, they would not use it to target military sites.
 
2012-11-21 09:02:01 AM

aedude01: Not everyone serves in the military. If you have a religious objection to doing so, or a health reason you can be assigned to work for the government in a non-military role. Not to state the obvious, but kids can't serve in the military and therefore should be classified as 'civilians.'


They can't serve, but barring health or religious objection, they *will.* The Israelis have been blockading/bombing/raiding Gaza for five years based on the idea that, since it's a Hamas stronghold, if they don't attack now "eventually" they'll kill an Israeli citizen.

So ... by that logic, there are no civilian targets in Israel - except the tourists and the ill.
 
2012-11-21 09:03:55 AM
The Israelis have been blockading/bombing/raiding Gaza for five years based on the idea that, since it's a Hamas stronghold,

No, the IDF has been raiding individual targets within Gaza.
And those targets have been legitimate targets: individuals belonging to Hamas, arms stores, et cetera.

If the IDF ever "raids Gaza", Gaza will become a parking lot.
 
2012-11-21 09:08:14 AM
Has the Exodus/Raid on Entebbe/Ten Commandments/Masada/Schindler's List marathon that always gets shown during these crises been scheduled yet?
 
2012-11-21 09:08:58 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: That won't happen, because then the Arabs in the country will outnumber the Jews, and Israel will no longer be a "Jewish state." Of course, there's a name for when an ethnic minority rules over an ethnic majority.


Outnumber the jews by how much? IMO the fringes on both sides will cancel each other out in an election, leaving only the middle, which consists of people who only want to live their lives in peace.

Of course that means the end to the "jewish state," but good riddance to that.
 
2012-11-21 09:10:24 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.

Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.

We can say that of Palestine as well then.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat?

They put right wingers in charge. And they're plenty happy to look the other way in regard to other rather heinous actions in Palestine.

The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.

Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.


There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence. In the end, Israel doesn't need to care. They can just build a new wall along whatever border they think is appropriate and there's fark-all anything anyone can do about it. They can build more settlements, bulldoze more houses, they can cut off water, power and food supplies. They don't have to change as they have all the power as long as power and success are determined by force. That's not to say Israel is right or wrong, it is simply the fact of life on the ground. The only way for the Palestinians to win is to stop fighting on Israel's terms with guns and bombs and force Israel to deal with them as people.
 
2012-11-21 09:10:30 AM

Outnumber the jews by how much?


By enough. In case you haven't noticed, the Sunni Arab record for treatment of minorities is abysmal, and nobody in his right mind would every choose to be a minority among them. Doesn't work for Copts, Druze, Alawis, Berbers, Jews, or anyone else.
 
2012-11-21 09:14:16 AM

dr_blasto: There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence.


How is that working out for Abbas? Israel isn't interested in this nonsense. They have and end game in mind, it truly doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.
 
2012-11-21 09:15:17 AM

DataShade: Aren't all Israeli citizens required to serve at least one year in the IDF? Aren't all Israelis thus soldiers, former soldiers, or future soldiers?


Completely BS argument. My little brother wants to join the U.S. army one day, so he would be a legitimate target now?

People who say something like "no Israelis are civilians because of the draft" are just twisting logic in indefensible ways to do whatever is necessary to justify what these terrorists are doing.
 
2012-11-21 09:16:10 AM
Carpet bombing.
 
2012-11-21 09:17:32 AM

DataShade: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.

You realize that what you're saying is the Palestinians have to produce a leader of the calibre seen only a few times a century or the Israeli government is going to genocide them, but since they haven't done that they get what they deserve?

Why isn't "the US and the international community should prevent Israel from committing genocide" an option? It worked in Serbia, no?


Where does this path they're on lead? Really, there's no violent solution the Palestinians can win and there's no way millions of people can live indefinitely in the conditions they're subjected to.

Don't read into what I've said as justification for escalation of violence or ends for either side. I'm only writing what I think I could see as the only way you'd see actual peace in Israel and something that ends up better than glorified refugee camps for the Palestinians. Israel isn't going to go all genocidey and just simply wipe the Palestinians out. They will win the war of attrition.
 
2012-11-21 09:18:14 AM

Molavian: Carpet bombing.


If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?
 
2012-11-21 09:18:26 AM
Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.
 
2012-11-21 09:18:50 AM

MmmmBacon: Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!


Yep. One side purposely targets the other's civilians and hides behind their own when they fire their rockets. Yet that's not the side that's evil to the fringe left.
 
2012-11-21 09:21:57 AM

TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?


Well they don't generally rock turbans there, that plan has some flaws.
 
2012-11-21 09:22:00 AM

Marine1: Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.


Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?
 
2012-11-21 09:23:19 AM

TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?


Let's be realistic, here.
 
2012-11-21 09:23:26 AM
Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?


That's the problem.
 
2012-11-21 09:24:41 AM
Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...
 
2012-11-21 09:25:16 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence.

How is that working out for Abbas? Israel isn't interested in this nonsense. They have and end game in mind, it truly doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.


Violence hasn't worked. There are still skirmishes in West Bank, too. Unless there's a massive change here, I can't see an end that works out well for the Palestinians.

Again, I'm not trying to justify actions on either part. Given the history of the conflict to date, looking at how support has remained unchanged and looking at any other conflict like this, I can't say there is any model I can see historically where the Palestinians have any other chance.
 
2012-11-21 09:26:51 AM

Fibro: I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.


I stopped responding because it's been hours, I'm home from work, and my daughter's awake.

There's no honor in claiming to not actively target civilians when, instead, you act with depraved indifference towards civilian casualties. If you launch a missile knowing it's going to land in a residential neighborhood, or if you set off a bomb on a bus in a residential neighborhood - there's no moral or ethical difference.

You *want* there to be a difference so you can sleep at night, but that's not law or logic, it's "exceptionalism."
 
2012-11-21 09:27:16 AM

cman: GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.



As military service in Israel is mandatory, virtually every man, woman or child in Israel is was, or will soon be a valid military target.

No?
 
2012-11-21 09:28:58 AM

Brubold: MmmmBacon: Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!

Yep. One side purposely targets the other's civilians and hides behind their own when they fire their rockets. Yet that's not the side that's evil to the fringe left.


Israel's blocked food and medicine to a civilian population for going on five years now. Right-wingers are ready to burn shiat down or secede from the union if their under-achieving children get denied college scholarships, but it's "fringe" to think maybe Israel should stop shooting 13-year-olds playing soccer or open fire on unarmed people who just happen to get too near to the edge of a buffer zone? You're either ignorant or an asshole.
 
2012-11-21 09:29:15 AM

HotWingConspiracy: TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?

Well they don't generally rock turbans there, that plan has some flaws.


Sorry. Keffiyeh.
 
2012-11-21 09:29:48 AM
As military service in Israel is mandatory, virtually every man, woman or child in Israel is was, or will soon be a valid military target.


"Nits make lice."

Lt. Chivington's stated justification for ordering the Sand Creek Massacre in Colorado.

Sink some lower, Amos. Show more of your true colors.
 
2012-11-21 09:30:50 AM
ExperianScaresCthulhu

Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own' clearly failed both history and current events.


Violent response by victims ends violent crime almost daily.
Violent response by women has ended/prevented many a rape attempt.
Violence ended Nazi Germany.
Violence ended Imperial japan.*
etc.. etc...etc...


* Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.
 
2012-11-21 09:31:36 AM
WEIRD QUOTE OF THE DAY:

FTA: Driver of the targeted bus, Nachum Hertzi, 53, said he did not see anyone suspicious on the bus. After the explosion, he said he kept driving and noted the bus was rather empty.

www.jpost.com
 
2012-11-21 09:32:16 AM

liam76: When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.


It's like you people didn't learn anything from our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine, and, while they're still holding the bodies of the dead children, say, "Now, whose side are you on, mine or the terrorist who's shooting at me," they will always pick the terrorist, because you've proven you're worse than he is.
 
2012-11-21 09:33:04 AM
When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.
 
2012-11-21 09:41:42 AM

TheOther: Marine1: Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.

Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?


I doubt that the majority of the Gaza populace supports these rocket launches, and even if they are a "de facto" government, there's still no reason for them to be conducting military operations with a militia. That'd be like the Democrats or Republicans raising a militia and then replacing the US military with it whenever they get the Presidency and majority in Congress.
 
2012-11-21 09:42:31 AM

ocschwar: When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.


It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.
 
2012-11-21 09:44:21 AM

OnlyM3: * Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.


That is an amazing conclusion to draw from Potsdam. What is the reasoning?
 
2012-11-21 09:44:59 AM
It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.
 
2012-11-21 09:46:22 AM

bostonguy: Completely BS argument. My little brother wants to join the U.S. army one day, so he would be a legitimate target now?

People who say something like "no Israelis are civilians because of the draft" are just twisting logic in indefensible ways to do whatever is necessary to justify what these terrorists are doing.


You're missing the point. The IDF is already killing, every year, more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has ever killed Israeli citizens. They're doing it through starvation, internment, disproportionate response to protest, summary executions for violation of curfew or trespass of DMZ, and the indiscriminate use of military force in residential areas.

When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


Telling someone who just watched his childhood friend and his entire family get vaporized by a US-made cruise missile that blowing up a bus is unethical because it's targeting civilians is the height of condescension and idiocy.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.
 
2012-11-21 09:47:36 AM

ocschwar: When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.


Which "here?" The bus bomb that, it turns out, wasn't planned by people from Gaza at all?
 
2012-11-21 09:52:51 AM

Amos Quito: FTA: Driver of the targeted bus, Nachum Hertzi, 53, said he did not see anyone suspicious on the bus. After the explosion, he said he kept driving and noted the bus was rather empty.


That's a pretty badass bus driver.
 
2012-11-21 09:55:28 AM
War is about killing people and breaking their toys. When a country decides to go to war, it must resign itself to those facts. Atrocities are how wars are won and if you don't have the stomach for that, don't go to war. The handwringing and crocodile tears of the audience do nothing but prolong the fight and increase the risk of dragging the rest of the world into it. If Israel ever wants an end to this game, they need to start killing and not stop until the Palestinians lose their ability and more importantly their will to fight. Of course the same could be said for Israel's enemies... just shut up and do it or just shut up. If you believe your grievances are so large that it is time to kill people over it, then the time to talk has past.  When the war is over, the victor needs to resist the urge to hold hands and comfort the loser... they need to finish up with their pillaging and looting, go home, mourn their dead and tell the rest of the world that this is what happens when you fight with them.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:10 AM

ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.



Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.

Got to build up those numbers!

Hitler / Nazis: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
Holocaust: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
Banishment from Arab countries: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:25 AM
REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.


No, it started because the democratically elected government of Gaza started a rocket campaign, and so
the democratically elected government of Israel decided to deprive the democratically elected government of Gaza with the means to carry out the rocket campaign.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:53 AM

ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.


Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.
 
2012-11-21 09:59:36 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist.



1 Don't use any kind of slur. This should be an absolute no-brainer. If you ever feel the need to call anyone a slur, shut the fark up immediately and go jump in the nearest lake.
Don't call Palestinians "animals" or "savages." This is a dehumanizing tactic, used to justify or diminish attacks against Palestinians on grounds that they aren't really human and don't require the same consideration as people like us. This is racist. Always. In every context.

2 Don't claim Palestinians don't really love their children or don't really value human life. Another dehumanizing tactic is to point to "unnatural" behavior on the part of the targeted group as proof that they are less human.Don't do it. The fact that anyone can repeat this claim even after the front page pictures of Jihad Masharawi carrying his son Omar just boggles my mind.

3 Don't claim Palestinian children are "taught to hate" or somehow less innocent than other children. Another dehumanizing tactic, and a particularly disgusting one, as it's typically used to downplay the deaths of Palestinian children. If you feel the need to say that the deaths of certain children aren't really 44as sad as others, ever, you need to walk away from the discussion at hand.

4 Don't say "Muslim" when you mean Palestinian. I see this a lot. Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but there are plenty of Palestinian Christians, too, as well as other groups. (There were even Palestinian Jews, whose communities predated British control of the area, although needless to say they are now Israelis rather than Palestinians in the current sense.) Not all Palestinians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Palestinian. They aren't interchangeable terms.

5 Don't say "Arab" when you mean Palestinian. Arab is a wider term, encompassing an entire ethnic group and bloc of countries. Palestinians are a distinct group within the Pan-Arab world, with their own unique culture, customs, and Arabic dialect. Use the appropriate term in the appropriate context, rather than making blanket statements about wider groups than you intend.

6 Don't claim Islam is inherently violent and evil. People who believe this are comparing Islam as practiced in poverty-stricken areas to Christianity or Judaism as practiced in affluent areas. See the problem there? People who are poor and oppressed, on the whole, engage in more violence and subscribe to more extremist forms of religions-regardless of what religions they practice, because the real problem isn't the religion, it's the poverty and oppression.Attacking an entire religion in this way is not only based on apples-to-oranges nonsense, but tinged with racism as well. (Before you protest that last assertion, look up just how many of the Islamic practices people freak out about are also practiced by Jews, then see if you can still come up with a reason for attacking only Islam that doesn't rest on the fact that the stereotypical Jew is white-passing but the stereotypical Muslim is not.)

7 Don't say or imply that all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorists. It's not true, and it smacks of dehumanizing ("we don't need to treat them with the same consideration we give people like us because they're inherently evil and violent"). I'm betting many of you would rather not be judged by some of the actions of your current government, so don't do the same thing to others.

8 Don't use any variant of the "we made the desert bloom" trope. This is basically the same racist argument European settlers in the Americas used-claiming they deserved the land because they made better use of it than the people whose land it originally was. In fact, Palestinians were farming, tending orchards, and raising livestock on the land well before Israel existed. Even if they weren't, "I took it because I could make better use of it" wouldn't get you off a theft charge in court, so why is it relevant here?

9 Don't use any variant of the "a land without a people for a people without a land" trope. See the previous point. There were most definitely people on the land before Israel. To deny that is to erase the existence of Palestinians and their history. Erasure of a culture is never okay.

10 Don't claim there is "no such thing" as Palestine or Palestinians. This also applies to people who put Palestine and Palestinian in quotation marks. Quibbling with the terms people choose to describe themselves and their culture is another form of erasure. Palestinians obviously exist. You don't have the right to decide what they can and can't call themselves.

11 Don't say Palestinians have no historical connection to the land or should go back to "their real countries." Again, Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country. Once again, the words Palestinian and Arab are not interchangeable. Just because Palestinians are Arab doesn't mean they have the same culture and history as Arabs in other countries, any more than being a white American gives someone the same culture and history as white Europeans.

12 Don'tcall Palestinians "Amalek" or cite Torah/Bible verses calling for the extermination of non-Jewish groups in Canaan. Calling for genocide isn't remotely farking acceptable, ever, and couching it in religion doesn't make it any more so. I can't believe I even have to say this. STOP.

13 Don't visually depict Palestinians using Arab racial stereotypes. Don't sexualize or exoticize Palestinian women.

14 Don't portray Palestinian men as leering, claw-fingered, keffiyah-and-robe-wearing, hook-nosed villains with bombs strapped to their chests. Avoid using camels, tents, or polygamy imagery.

15 Don't demand that Palestinians or their allies take public note of Israeli casualties, affirm Israel's right to exist, or publicly repudiate Hamas.People who make this demand are assuming that Palestinians are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they "prove" themselves acceptable by Zionists' standards.

16 Don't blow off Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims if they tell you what you are saying is racist or Islamophobic. Not all pro-Israel speech is racist, but some undeniably is. Actually give the accusation your consideration and hear the accuser out. If they fail to convince you, that's fine. But at least hear them out (without talking over them) before you decide that.


Palestinians may care about their children, but the group they elected in Gaza, Hamas, cares more about killing Israeli civilians and the lives of their fighters more than their children.

There is no other reason for them to launch rockets from the middle of neighborhoods.
 
2012-11-21 09:59:36 AM
Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.


Take it up with the Arabs who massacred their Jewish minorities, subjected them to savage repression and drove them into Israel.

Or better yet, get a painful cancer and die. You've established pretty well that the world will smell better without you.
 
2012-11-21 10:00:35 AM
Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully,

Iraqi Jews stole nothing from anyone.

They were massacred, repressed byt he government, and driven into Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:02:50 AM
When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

imageshack.us
 
2012-11-21 10:07:10 AM

ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]


I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.
 
2012-11-21 10:09:24 AM
I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy.

I've got a better idea: get the Arab nations to establish a less-than-abysmal record for treating minorities, and Israelis might consider that.
 
2012-11-21 10:10:12 AM
I'm just gonna leave THIS here. The sane people will appreciate it.
 
2012-11-21 10:10:42 AM

DataShade: liam76: When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

It's like you people didn't learn anything from our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine, and, while they're still holding the bodies of the dead children, say, "Now, whose side are you on, mine or the terrorist who's shooting at me," they will always pick the terrorist, because you've proven you're worse than he is.


Newsflash they already elected Hamas. They are on the side of the terrorists.

I don't think striking back is going to make Palestinians love then, but the fact remains when Hamas puts a rocket launcer in a building they are responsible for the civilians who are killed when it is destroyed.
 
2012-11-21 10:11:38 AM

seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.


So that boy did those things?
 
2012-11-21 10:11:42 AM
I think this link would validate a News Flash moreso if there WASN'T a bombing in Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:13:53 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-21 10:14:53 AM

DataShade: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


Do you really think Israel is saying, "Look! There's a civilian home! Let's bomb it!"

No, Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas, giving the IDF no choice but to strike those areas when it goes after the terrorists. Hamas does it intentionally to get the worldwide PR and sympathy.

The civilian deaths are Hamas' fault.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:17 AM
Tatsuma,

Question: Do you support the creation of an independent palestinean state? I know you will respond to this with conditions and a history lesson, etc etc, but ignoring all that, and forgetting potential borders, do you support the creation of an independent palestine as your neighbor?

seriously, I'm curious. Not trying to troll.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:20 AM

ocschwar: I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy.

I've got a better idea: get the Arab nations to establish a less-than-abysmal record for treating minorities, and Israelis might consider that.


So, the Israelis are incapable of ever having the moral high ground. Got it. You know, there might actually be peace in the Middle East if you guys would just stop this f*ckery and you know, acted like grown ups. That understand when you silence a group of people who have JUST AS MUCH OF A RIGHT TO LIVE THERE AS YOU, you're going to get 65 years of war, rocket attacks, bus bombs, and general behavior of two petulant children arguing over whose turn on the swing set it is.

Grow the f*ck up, otherwise, someone is going to get smart, give the Palestinians a bomb to counter the "Jewish" bomb and turn the whole area into a radioactive crater (which, after this long of fighting, actually seems like the new high ground) ... If you can't work it out yourselves, you're all going to lose.

KA-BOOM.
 
2012-11-21 10:18:09 AM

Marine1: seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.

So that boy did those things?


Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs. That boy is young enough where his parents were completely aware of the 65 year war that has been going on, this should no longer surprise anyone.
 
2012-11-21 10:19:34 AM

seadoo2006: Marine1: seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.

So that boy did those things?

Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs. That boy is young enough where his parents were completely aware of the 65 year war that has been going on, this should no longer surprise anyone.


Then do shiat to the parents. Don't to it to some kid. Sheesh. I mean if you're gonna disfigure and maim people at least do it to the right dude.
 
2012-11-21 10:19:42 AM
So, the Israelis are incapable of ever having the moral high ground

Israelis are a Mideastern minority that successfully secured an enclave where they cannot be treated the way Sunni Arabs treat minorities.

We have what Copts, and Druze, and Alawis, and Kurds, and Berbers, all dream about.

All the Arabs have to do to get the moral high ground is prove Israel to be un-necessary, and all they have to do that is be decent towards other minorities.

Notice that is not happening.
 
2012-11-21 10:21:07 AM

DataShade: MmmmBacon: Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.

There's almost nothing correct about your entire description.

Back in 2006, Israel and the US pressured the PNA into holding new elections because they thought they could achieve a sort of "regime change" and get the (then US-friendly) Fatah a full sweep of the Palestinian parliament; instead, Hamas won a significant majority. Israel and the US refused to recognize the election (and has since refused to allow any further elections). Fatah was given shipments of arms from the US government to defeat the democratically elected Palestinian government, and started a Palestinian civil war, which ended up with the West Bank controlled by US-friendly (but perceived corrupt) Palestinian politicians, with Hamas holed up in Gaza.

Israel has proceeded to use the pretext of violent unrest to block shipments of food and medicine to Gaza, launch military raids into civilian centers, and assassinate elected leaders.


Now Hamas is making desperate attempts to fight back and you're saying "well, they started it!" That's crazy-talk.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
2012-11-21 10:21:13 AM
Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs.

Stay in Morocco, watch as your 11 year old daughter is kidnapped, and know that she has been forcibly "married" and you will never see her again.

Welcome to the Jewish experience.
 
2012-11-21 10:24:47 AM

ocschwar: Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs.

Stay in Morocco, watch as your 11 year old daughter is kidnapped, and know that she has been forcibly "married" and you will never see her again.

Welcome to the Jewish experience.


Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.

Like I said, give the Palestinians the bomb to counteract the Israeli nuclear armament and sit back and watch what happens. My guess is that MAD might actually work, but if not, the result is an uninhabitable holy land for the next century. Both I am okay with.
 
2012-11-21 10:26:04 AM

ocschwar: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 640x439]


what i notice about that cartoon:
- only one hits the israeli side
- there are multiple hits on the hamas side
- there are no men on the israeli side
- there are no women on the hamas side
- the one rocket which hit israel is far away
- the multiple rockets which hit hamas side are very close
- there is no backup for hamas
- israel not only sent rockets eye for an eye style, they sent airdropped bombs -- is that plane supposed to represent Israel or the US (or whomever Israel is cuddling up to that morning, since Israel has no allies except itself, only nations to use like a trick)?


so, why is lil ol israel afraid of hamas and their single bomb? when israel has multiple bombs and air strike force on top?
 
2012-11-21 10:27:41 AM
Provoking the Muslim/Arab world by instigating a heavy-handed military action by Israel is perhaps the end-game strategy here? Hamas can't possibly hope to prevail in a military conflict with Israel after all...

Thoughts?
 
2012-11-21 10:27:44 AM
Sounds like they knew what they were getting into.

So, let's see: you've been confronted with the facts about the treatment of the Jewish community in the Arab world, and you don't give a flying fark.

Since you're talking about the moral high ground, answer this: what possible argument can you offer to show that YOU have th moral high ground??
 
2012-11-21 10:28:26 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Fibro: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians

It's just one of the world's funny quirks that the people not targeting civilians kill tons more civilians.

 
2012-11-21 10:29:18 AM

so, why is lil ol israel afraid of hamas and their single bomb?


Because this is what it does.

imageshack.us
 
2012-11-21 10:29:30 AM
So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?
 
2012-11-21 10:30:04 AM

ArmanTanzarian: Provoking the Muslim/Arab world by instigating a heavy-handed military action by Israel is perhaps the end-game strategy here? Hamas can't possibly hope to prevail in a military conflict with Israel after all...

Thoughts?


Unlikely. The Arab world is now in the position where they at least have to pretend to get along with Israel in order to please the US. They won't be brazen enough to launch organized military strikes on Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:30:35 AM
So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?


Lots more shots on goal from Hamas's side. No hits. Does that upset you?
 
2012-11-21 10:35:50 AM

bostonguy: DataShade: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.

Do you really think Israel is saying, "Look! There's a civilian home! Let's bomb it!"

No, Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas, giving the IDF no choice but to strike those areas when it goes after the terrorists. Hamas does it intentionally to get the worldwide PR and sympathy.

The civilian deaths are Hamas' fault.


If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined, you could roll right up to the goddamn building with an APC and take prisoners, interrogate your enemies, seize documents or materiel.

You know, behave like an actual military instead of a vindictive terrorist organization.
 
2012-11-21 10:36:34 AM

If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined,


You must be new here.
 
2012-11-21 10:41:29 AM

ocschwar: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into.

So, let's see: you've been confronted with the facts about the treatment of the Jewish community in the Arab world, and you don't give a flying fark.

Since you're talking about the moral high ground, answer this: what possible argument can you offer to show that YOU have th moral high ground??


Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own. Again, I've said it a thousand times ... make every willing Palestinian a full and free citizen of the Israeli state and offer the current Palestinian government equal representation in a newly reformed state.

Unless you guys truly LIKE getting randomly blown up by rockets, I can't imagine any other reason why this poses such a problem to you. Oh, that's right, the Zionists don't believe in peace with the Palestinians, they believe in hopefully getting them all to leave without being blown up in the process.

Either treat them like humans and invite them to the table, or enjoy your rocket attacks. But please, stop trying to con the US and UN into feeling sorry for you starting and provoking a continued war for 60+ years ... figure it out yourselves.

Me? I think the whole lot of you should be moved out of the region and it vaporized and returned back to the Mediterranean sea.
 
2012-11-21 10:42:31 AM

seadoo2006: ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.

Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.



Actually the British were trying to remain fair to the native Palestinians - or at least as fair as possible - given that they had sold their soul to the Zionists via the Balfour Declaration of 1917:

QUOTE:

Dear Lord Rothschild,

[...]

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

END QUOTE (Note the bolded)

The above declaration was the formalization of a quid pro quo agreement in which the Brits promised to secure Palestine as a "national home" for Jews IN EXCHANGE for Zionists securing financing (and other "help") for the struggling Brits in WWI (1917).

It served the purposes of the Zionists (who had been struggling in vain to get their grubby paws on Palestine for decades), and the Brits who were on the verge of losing the war without additional funding (and other "things", such as help from Uncle Sam, etc).

While this served the interests of the Zionists, they were frustrated to discover that (A) very few Jews had any interest in moving to "the Homeland", and (B) that the Brits intended to live up to their pledge NOT to "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

OF course the Zionists had NO interest in sharing "their land" with a bunch of filthy Palestinian natives, so when the British insisted on a degree of fairness and equity, the Zionists decided that they had no further need for these Limeys, and politely asked them to leave by bombing the shiat out of their headquarters in the King David Hotel.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

This remains the single deadliest act of terrorism EVER committed in Palestine, murdering 91 and injuring 46. The mastermind of the plot was eventually found, and the Zionists "punished" him by electing him Prime Minister of Israel.

upload.wikimedia.org


So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.
 
2012-11-21 10:42:48 AM

ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]


Your un-cited, description-free image from imageshack.us is sure to win over hearts and minds. Hey, why don't you ask him if he'd like to trade places with the Palestinian 13-year-old shot to death for no reason by IDF two weeks ago that prompted the rocket launch that prompted the assassination of the Hamas leader that prompted even more rocket launches.


The point is: Israel cannot claim the moral high ground when they're doing more damage to more civilians and causing more terror to civilians than their supposed-terrorist enemies.
 
2012-11-21 10:44:30 AM

seadoo2006: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.


One of their grievances is the mere existence of Jews. Do you think they plan on dropping that goal if you give them equal representation?
 
2012-11-21 10:48:56 AM

ocschwar: If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined,

You must be new here.


Then give Gaza the tax money Israel's been sitting on since 2006 and stop the blockade. The Palestinians will buy cars and they can soak up the mineblasts, *then* you can sit smugly at your computer and claim that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives.
 
2012-11-21 10:51:44 AM

Cataholic: seadoo2006: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.

One of their grievances is the mere existence of Jews. Do you think they plan on dropping that goal if you give them equal representation?


Really? Show me that the whole of Palestine wants the destruction is Israel. My guess is that when you talk to the Palestinians who have been oppressed for years, that food, water, medical care, and education are all held over the destruction of the Israeli state.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas because they were being crushed and Hamas said the right things. Now, it's home to settle the difference and get along. Seriously, this isn't that hard ... it only seems hard because THEY'VE NEVER TRIED.
 
2012-11-21 10:52:16 AM
TheOther

OnlyM3: * Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.

That is an amazing conclusion to draw from Potsdam. What is the reasoning?
Fair question, and due to the utter failure of U.S. education system.. not a completely surprising one.


Prime Minister Suzuki & Foreign minister Shigenori Tōgō were considering a negotiated "settlement" to the war.

Army Minister General Korechika Anami opposed any cessation of military action. His plan was for an all out final battle. His stance was that the US had no stomach to continue the fight and force the earlier unconditional surrender demands.


July 16 '45 Potsdam - The U.S. had already broken the Japaneese codes and were able to decypher communications. Truman therefore knew there was resistance to the Unconditional Surrender ultimatum. In what was in Truman's mind an effort to give the Japaneese a chance to "back down", the ultimatum was modified to surrender of the armed forces of Japan. This would give the Japaneese an open door to keep the Emperor and soften the terms. Instead, this backfired (as it always does -see the placation of Hitler by Chamberlain etc..). When this modified declaration was broadcast to japan, this softening of the terms was seen as a "promising development" by Suzuki and the rest who felt "for the enemy to say something like that means circumstances have arrisin that force them to end the war" (aka back down) "that is why they are no longer insisting on full unconditional surrender." They felt that in light of this weakening (much like hitler saw the weakness of the allies, much like Osama saw clintons failure to stand up to him*) as an opening and that we (the U.S) would not hold firm, but would yield.

In light of this perceived weakened stance, Prime Minister Suzuki -who as earlier shown had supported surrender- announced that his government would ignore the Potsdam declaration. In his declaration, he used the word "mokusatsu", meaning to kill with silent contempt.

That made the Hiroshima bomb inevitable.


Next question? 


*history is full of such examples, if you don't like these two(2) pick any of dozens of others
 
2012-11-21 10:52:32 AM

ocschwar: Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.


Take it up with the Arabs who massacred their Jewish minorities, subjected them to savage repression and drove them into Israel.



Which, as I said previously, was EXACTLY what the Zionists wanted and NEEDED.

So, while this "savage repression" (as you called it) was BAD for Jews, it was farking GREAT for Zionists, who desperately needed all of the warm Jewish bodies they could get - by whatever means necessary - to populate the budding Zionist State.

I don't think you've thought this through very well, ocschwar. If you had you would realize that the Jewish PEOPLE have NO greater enemy than Zionism.

Shalom, bub.
 
2012-11-21 10:52:58 AM

ocschwar: So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?


Lots more shots on goal from Hamas's side. No hits. Does that upset you?


I think you have your iron dome on too tight
 
2012-11-21 11:02:24 AM
Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own.

Then why aren't you lecturing Arabs to try treating their minorities better?

Why are you blaming Moroccan Jews for their imputent decision to flee that hellhole?
 
2012-11-21 11:04:55 AM


Your un-cited, description-free image from imageshack.us is sure to win over hearts and minds.


It's there to establish a simple point, which you insist on ignoring, which is that these rockets kill and maim, and therefore give the IDF causus belli.
 
2012-11-21 11:07:32 AM
reminds me of this Ahmed and Salim Episode
 
2012-11-21 11:07:55 AM
So, while this "savage repression" (as you called it)

Well, Amos, given that you have repeatedly posted arguments that Jews had the Holocaust coming to them, it's no surprise that you would downplay the massacres and repression that drove Jews from Arab countries into Israel.

Amos, you are a vile, disgusting scumbag. Get cancer and die.
 
2012-11-21 11:08:16 AM

ocschwar: Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own.

Then why aren't you lecturing Arabs to try treating their minorities better?

Why are you blaming Moroccan Jews for their imputent decision to flee that hellhole?


Because, like it or not, Israel is ground zero for this discussion ... you solve the Israeli problem, you solve most of the unrest in the Middle East, which in one form or another, comes directly from the state of Israel and the unequal advantage it has in the region.

Point being: Why try so hard to prevent Iran from gaining a nuclear weapon when Israel has had one for years. What makes Israel the gifted child that can hold that power yet the world says everyone else can't? When you have a country that receives as much international aid and international arms dealings as Israel does, you're going to create unrest.

So, take the first step and invite them into the peace process. If after every Palestinian becomes a citizen and they are represented equally and they STILL cannot have peace, go for it, slaughter them all. But to blockade these people into the Gaza Strip and take MORE land in 1949 than you originally alotted is nothing more than the Israelis being greedy little farks because they had international arms backing in the wars.

Aka, the Golan Heights is NOT Israel, give it back to Syria. The Gaza Strip is NOT Israel, give it back to Egypt. Go back to your own prescribed borders from 1948 and stop trying to use national security as an excuse to keep increasing the land area of your country. Every time they do so, they piss people off.
 
2012-11-21 11:13:09 AM
You remember the stories John use to tell us about the the three chinamen playing Fantan? This guy runs up to them and says, "Hey, the world's coming to an end!" and the first one says, "Well, I best go to the mission and pray," and the second one says, "Well, hell, I'm gonna go and buy me a case of Mezcal and six whores," and the third one says "Well, I'm gonna finish the game." I shall finish the game, Doc.


I guess I don't know enough to root for either side, so I'm going to root for progress. Let's get on with it already.
 
2012-11-21 11:15:14 AM
ExperianScaresCthulhu

so, why is lil ol israel afraid of hamas and their single bomb? when israel has multiple bombs and air strike force on top?
my god you're a racist idiot. As long as the bombs are killing jews, you're all for them.

How dare those jews not get on the trains quietly like last time, right?
 
2012-11-21 11:16:01 AM

Shakin_Haitian: Isn't it weird how the Palestinians with decades old weapons technology are just as accurate as Israel is with modern weapons technology?


You must be in Washington or Colorado because you've got to be high to believe that.
 
2012-11-21 11:20:28 AM
CNN Duped By Sad Story Of Dead Palestinian Child 'Killed By Israel'?

Takeaways from this:
1) Hamas kills their own kids and blames Israel.
2) Egypt is playing along with the charade.
3) Bloggers can apparently figure this out with no problem.
4) AP and CNN are incapable of getting any story right.
 
2012-11-21 11:21:20 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians



You mean like we did at Dresden? Tokyo?

LOL, always with the rules, when it's convenient.
 
2012-11-21 11:24:21 AM

Insatiable Jesus: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


You mean like we did at Dresden? Tokyo?

LOL, always with the rules, when it's convenient.


The Israelis don't understand how asymmetrical warfare generally works ...
 
2012-11-21 11:25:38 AM

BattleAxe: CNN Duped By Sad Story Of Dead Palestinian Child 'Killed By Israel'?

Takeaways from this:
1) Hamas kills their own kids and blames Israel.
2) Egypt is playing along with the charade.
3) Bloggers can apparently figure this out with no problem.
4) AP and CNN are incapable of getting any story right.



Or you could fall back on that ol' cliche. "All's fair in love and ratings."
 
2012-11-21 11:31:01 AM

OnlyM3: TheOther

OnlyM3: * Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.

That is an amazing conclusion to draw from Potsdam. What is the reasoning? Fair question, and due to the utter failure of U.S. education system.. not a completely surprising one.


Prime Minister Suzuki & Foreign minister Shigenori Tōgō were considering a negotiated "settlement" to the war.

Army Minister General Korechika Anami opposed any cessation of military action. His plan was for an all out final battle. His stance was that the US had no stomach to continue the fight and force the earlier unconditional surrender demands.


July 16 '45 Potsdam - The U.S. had already broken the Japaneese codes and were able to decypher communications. Truman therefore knew there was resistance to the Unconditional Surrender ultimatum. In what was in Truman's mind an effort to give the Japaneese a chance to "back down", the ultimatum was modified to surrender of the armed forces of Japan. This would give the Japaneese an open door to keep the Emperor and soften the terms. Instead, this backfired (as it always does -see the placation of Hitler by Chamberlain etc..). When this modified declaration was broadcast to japan, this softening of the terms was seen as a "promising development" by Suzuki and the rest who felt "for the enemy to say something like that means circumstances have arrisin that force them to end the war" (aka back down) "that is why they are no longer insisting on full unconditional surrender." They felt that in light of this weakening (much like hitler saw the weakness of the allies, much like Osama saw clintons failure to stand up to him*) as an opening and that we (the U.S) would not hold firm, but would yield.

In light of this perceived weakened stance, Prime Minister Suzuki -who as earlier shown had supported surrender- announced that his government would ignore the Potsdam declaration. In his declarat ...


Most of my knowledge about Potsdam is from reading Churchill's wanking to get the US to fight the Soviets in Europe rather than getting the Soviets to help finish off Japan. My US education didn't particularly address this other than in a vague 'Kill Commies!'. What is your source on Suzuki's and others attitudes?
 
2012-11-21 11:34:29 AM

OnlyM3: Fair question, and due to the utter failure of U.S. education system.. not a completely surprising one.Prime Minister Suzuki & Foreign minister Shigenori Tōgō were considering a negotiated "settlement" to the war.Army Minister General Korechika Anami opposed any cessation of military action. His plan was for an all out final battle. His stance was that the US had no stomach to continue the fight and force the earlier unconditional surrender demands.July 16 '45 Potsdam - The U.S. had already broken the Japaneese codes and were able to decypher communications. Truman therefore knew there was resistance to the Unconditional Surrender ultimatum. In what was in Truman's mind an effort to give the Japaneese a chance to "back down", the ultimatum was modified to surrender of the armed forces of Japan. This would give the Japaneese an open door to keep the Emperor and soften the terms. Instead, this backfired (as it always does -see the placation of Hitler by Chamberlain etc..). When this modified declaration was broadcast to japan, this softening of the terms was seen as a "promising development" by Suzuki and the rest who felt "for the enemy to say something like that means circumstances have arrisin that force them to end the war" (aka back down) "that is why they are no longer insisting on full unconditional surrender." They felt that in light of this weakening (much like hitler saw the weakness of the allies, much like Osama saw clintons failure to stand up to him*) as an opening and that we (the U.S) would not hold firm, but would yield.



Arrisin? Really? And you want to chide others for their lack of education?

LOL
 
2012-11-21 11:35:44 AM
Remember kiddies, the people supporting Palestine are supporting terrorism. Keep that in mind when shiat hits the fan here.
 
2012-11-21 11:36:27 AM

seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...


Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.
 
2012-11-21 11:36:29 AM

seadoo2006: Because, like it or not, Israel is ground zero for this discussion ... you solve the Israeli problem, you solve most of the unrest in the Middle East, which in one form or another, comes directly from the state of Israel and the unequal advantage it has in the region.


I don't think if Israel disappeared tomorrow, say all Israelis packed their bags and moved, that the unrest in the ME would quiet down. Israel is a foil, but there would be another one to follow immediately. Some of it is a hangover from the borders created through the British Mandate, some from outright racism, some from extreme wealth inequality, some from theocratic fundamentalism and a whole pile of tribalism.
 
2012-11-21 11:38:07 AM
Because, like it or not, Israel is ground zero for this discussion ... you solve the Israeli problem,

No it isn't. It's only "ground zero" because it's a place where a minority rallied together and successfully made a stance for their dignity.

You remove Israel, and Jews go back to being a minority among Sunni Arabs. Nothing is done to secure decent treatment.
Jews lose everything.

On the other hand, if Egypt, for example, starts being decent to Copts, Copts gain.
Muslims gain (since Egypt would become less of a shiathole.)

And then you can make a case for Jews to lose their enclave.
I'd call that a win win.
 
2012-11-21 11:43:31 AM

seadoo2006: ocschwar: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into.

So, let's see: you've been confronted with the facts about the treatment of the Jewish community in the Arab world, and you don't give a flying fark.

Since you're talking about the moral high ground, answer this: what possible argument can you offer to show that YOU have th moral high ground??

Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own. Again, I've said it a thousand times ... make every willing Palestinian a full and free citizen of the Israeli state and offer the current Palestinian government equal representation in a newly reformed state.

Unless you guys truly LIKE getting randomly blown up by rockets, I can't imagine any other reason why this poses such a problem to you. Oh, that's right, the Zionists don't believe in peace with the Palestinians, they believe in hopefully getting them all to leave without being blown up in the process.

Either treat them like humans and invite them to the table, or enjoy your rocket attacks. But please, stop trying to con the US and UN into feeling sorry for you starting and provoking a continued war for 60+ years ... figure it out yourselves.

Me? I think the whole lot of you should be moved out of the region and it vaporized and returned back to the Mediterranean sea.


So do you think that by miraculously "inviting them to the table" and giving them citizenship + equal representation will stop the attacks from occurring or just end up bringing the attacks closer to their door steps? How do you handle the ongoing terrorist attacks? Ignore it? Peace only works if both sides are rational and understand what they jeopardize by not being peaceful. When you have no oversight and nothing to really lose, why bother being peaceful?

You know, the same exact thing happened growing up with my younger brother. We would fight all the damn time, and really for no reason. We would forget what we were even fighting about or who started it. I wasn't going to stop until he was unable to fight or stopped fighting, where HE was not going to stop fighting - period. We got into a really bad fight one day and I ran into my parents room and locked the door. My parents said "Whoa, what are you doing why did you lock the door!?" A couple seconds later, BAM BAM BAM, my younger brother is hitting the door trying to get in. I was frantic and told my dad that he is trying to hit me with a miniature baseball bat. My dad said, "That's silly, he won't hit you, just open the door and I will talk to him." So, he opens the door and my brother FLEW in and proceeded to hit me with a miniature baseball bat. What I learned from that is fark ever conceding. You know how I stopped his rampages? I punched him finally as hard as I could in his face and broke his nose. We haven't fought since that day. This conflict is no different than a pair of brothers. You are delusional if you think that peace through diplomatic means is achievable. Settle it once and for all and move on from there.
 
2012-11-21 11:45:46 AM

MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.



Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.
 
2012-11-21 11:47:58 AM

Marine1: ArmanTanzarian: Provoking the Muslim/Arab world by instigating a heavy-handed military action by Israel is perhaps the end-game strategy here? Hamas can't possibly hope to prevail in a military conflict with Israel after all...

Thoughts?

Unlikely. The Arab world is now in the position where they at least have to pretend to get along with Israel in order to please the US. They won't be brazen enough to launch organized military strikes on Israel.


It wouldn't have to be an overt military strike... Iran is already providing weapons and cash... And we have seen examples of Muslims crossing boarders to assist other Muslims in fighting in recent times. The image of Jews kicking Palestinian ass is certain to be provocative across the region yes?
 
2012-11-21 11:50:08 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


Yes they are.
I'm not saying that this attack was right, because it was wrong. I would go so far as to say it deserves a retaliation strike, but every time Israel retaliates, it winds up with women and children dead.
 
2012-11-21 11:55:05 AM

MmmmBacon: Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!


There was someone claiming Hamas wanted a ceasefire?
 
2012-11-21 11:57:49 AM

ocschwar: So, while this "savage repression" (as you called it)

Well, Amos, given that you have repeatedly posted arguments that Jews had the Holocaust coming to them, it's no surprise that you would downplay the massacres and repression that drove Jews from Arab countries into Israel.



www.stel.ru

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth"
-- Lenin

I guess ol Vladamir was right. Then again, you don't really believe that I have said such things, do you, ocschwar?


ocschwar: Amos, you are a vile, disgusting scumbag. Get cancer and die.



As I said earlier, Zionism is the WORST enemy of the Jewish people. Given that you are such a staunch supporter of this self-destructive and pernicious ideology, I can only conclude that you, ocschwar, are an anti-Semite of the worst stripe.

Shame on you.
 
2012-11-21 11:58:18 AM

ocschwar: So, while this "savage repression" (as you called it)

Well, Amos, given that you have repeatedly posted arguments that Jews had the Holocaust coming to them, it's no surprise that you would downplay the massacres and repression that drove Jews from Arab countries into Israel.

Amos, you are a vile, disgusting scumbag. Get cancer and die.


Don't try to hold Amos to the logical conclusion of his arguments.
 
2012-11-21 12:01:44 PM

Amos Quito: So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.


Wait, what "endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians"? If Israel wanted to take every single acre of land currently held by Palestinian groups, they could easily do so. Easily. And yet, they haven't, have they? In fact, if the evil Zionists were as hell-bent on destroying the Palestinians (as your overall post implies), they have had decades in which they could have done so, again rather easily, having vastly superior military might. Again, this hasn't happened.

Why is that? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong? Oh, of course not. Zionists are evil, Israel is evil, Palestinians are completely innocent and must be protected at all costs. Got it.

Suggestion: Why not fly on over to Gaza and see about helping the Palestinians yourself? See if you can't talk Hamas into, oh, not launching rockets at Israel from playgrounds and the tops of apartment buildings? Feel free to report back and let us know how that went.
 
2012-11-21 12:03:44 PM

Warlordtrooper: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

Yes they are.
I'm not saying that this attack was right, because it was wrong. I would go so far as to say it deserves a retaliation strike, but every time Israel retaliates, it winds up with women and children dead.


They are targeting launchers that Hamas puts in the middle of women and children.

They do this because they want those people dead (it makes Israel look bad) and/or they care more about the lives of their fighters then women and children.
 
2012-11-21 12:04:57 PM

MmmmBacon: Amos Quito: So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.

Wait, what "endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians"? If Israel wanted to take every single acre of land currently held by Palestinian groups, they could easily do so. Easily. And yet, they haven't, have they? In fact, if the evil Zionists were as hell-bent on destroying the Palestinians (as your overall post implies), they have had decades in which they could have done so, again rather easily, having vastly superior military might. Again, this hasn't happened.

Why is that? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong? Oh, of course not. Zionists are evil, Israel is evil, Palestinians are completely innocent and must be protected at all costs. Got it.

Suggestion: Why not fly on over to Gaza and see about helping the Palestinians yourself? See if you can't talk Hamas into, oh, not launching rockets at Israel from playgrounds and the tops of apartment buildings? Feel free to report back and let us know how that went.


I'll pitch in $50 for the ticket...
 
2012-11-21 12:06:34 PM
"135 B.C
Antiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against Rome.

70 A.D.
Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.

136 A.D.
580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.

300 A.D.
Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.

306 A.D.
Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.

325 A.D.
Constantine changed the celebration of Easter on the calendar so that it did not coincide with the Jewish Passover.

379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.

395 A.D.
St. Gregory of Nyssa in sermons and writings characterized Jews as assassins of the Prophets, companions of the Devil, a race of vipers, a Sanhedrin of Demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness.

415 A.D.
Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OF
ALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.
ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.
These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!
AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.

717 A.D.
Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.

1012 A.D.
Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

1096 A.D.
First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.

1144 A.D.
First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)
This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)

1190 A.D.
Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.
The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.
Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.
Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.
Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.
Expulsion from France.

1348 A.D.
JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.

1389 A.D.
MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.
270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.
Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.
ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.
Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.
EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.
Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.
The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.
Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.
12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.
POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1598 A.D.
Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)

1614 A.D.
JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.
GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.
Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.
Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.
POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.
20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.
MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1858 A.D.
THE MORTARA CASE: Catholics abduct a 7 yr. old Jewish child. A Catholic servant baptized a Jewish child when the child was seriously ill and the church of Rome seized the child. Outcry had no effect on the POPE.

1879 A.D.
Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.
POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.
KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.
FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1894 A.D.
ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.

1903 A.D.
APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.
This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1905 A.D.
Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.

1919 A.D.
3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.

1920 A.D.
Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1925 A.D.
MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.

1933 A.D.
HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.

1935 A.D.
Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.

1938 A.D.
Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.
Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.
Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.
EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.
Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.
EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.
HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.
Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.
BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.
Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.
Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

1967 A.D.
SIX DAY WAR. Also new publication of Elders of Zion in Arabic.

1968 A.D.
Emigration of last remaining Jews in Poland.

1969 A.D.
JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.

1970 A.D.
Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")

1980 A.D.
Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.

1982 A.D.
War in Lebanon begins after many years of terrorist attacks against the Jews in the Upper Galilee area from the vantage point of Beaufort Castle. Many Lebanese killed over long period of time, but was ignored by the News Media. War in Lebanon gets slanted coverage.

1983 A.D.
Word from Christians in Israel that the PLO planned their next battleground to be Canada via Quebec. Documented proof that Russia planned in 1982 to attack Israel. "
Link


You're doing it wrong.

What is it in your book that incites the minority within the Jewish population to alienate those around you? Why does it happen over and again to you?

Unless it's just a great big coincidence, that every time people feel like having a pogrom "Jew" jsut keeps getting drawn out of the hat.

Sick of the professional victim known as the Zionist, you are the most dangerous thing in the world to Jews, you will never let your people live in peace and will always be inciting them, and later hiding amongst them when the shiatrain falls.

Fark Zionism.
 
2012-11-21 12:06:53 PM

Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.


Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.


1967. Israel fought off multiple invading forces from Arab neighbors on all sides, and frankly kicked their asses in the process. Israel does not need to fear their neighbors, they've already proven that even without a Nuke they can and will stomp any Arab country that threatens them. If Israel was so interested in dropping The Bomb, they would have by now. On Iraq, for example, to destroy their nuclear program. Instead they went conventional in that raid. Why? Because Israel isn't the blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster you portray it to be.
 
2012-11-21 12:10:27 PM
Let me be very clear: I have ZERO problem with a Jewish state. I think it's great that a group of people are actively trying to end the diaspora and return an ethnic group back to a central location.

HOWEVER, I do not agree that the creation of a Jewish state should've been in Israel for three very large reasons:

1) The area of land that is Israel and Palestine has been repeatedly been ground zero for many of the most brutal attacks, land grabs, and conquerings in human history. What in 1948 gave cause to think that the creation of a Jewish state THERE was going to end these extremely violent disputes.

2) There were people already living there in 1948. The creation of Israel was not in a vacuum, there were people living there already and the idea that a group of ethno-religious people could move another group of ethno-religious people off the land they were living on because suddenly a "winner" was decided in the millenia-old conflict was myopic and strongheaded.

3) If the world felt so bad for the Jews after WW2, why did they not just give them Ireland, or Iceland, or some part of sub-Saharan Africa? Why was the Jewish plight so important that they should be GIVEN the lands THEY call home? Afterall, the same things have happened many times in the past and nobody has ever demanded they get their home back. Simply put, the Jewish massacre during the Holocaust was a horrific tragedy that should never be forgotten, but where is the state for the gypsies that were slaughtered? How about the homosexuals that were killed? What about the millions of Russians that died in WW2? Where is their homeland?

The Jews got preferential treatment in 1948 because the memory of WW2 was still burned into the minds of the world. However, that doesn't mean that they can force people off their land and set up shop in a hotly contested area of the world without retaliation or bloodshed. They knew in 1948 what they know now ... that the Jewish state being founded in the 'homeland' of Israel was going to keep the conflict, that has been waging for thousands of years, open and raging.
 
2012-11-21 12:10:56 PM

Insatiable Jesus: "135 B.C
Antiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against Rome.

70 A.D.
Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.

136 A.D.
580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.

300 A.D.
Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.

306 A.D.
Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.

325 A.D.
Constantine changed the celebration of Easter on the calendar so that it did not coincide with the Jewish Passover.

379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.

395 A.D.
St. Gregory of Nyssa in sermons and writings characterized Jews as assassins of the Prophets, companions of the Devil, a race of vipers, a Sanhedrin of Demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness.

415 A.D.
Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OF
ALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.
ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.
These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!
AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.

717 A.D.
Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.

1012 A.D.
Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

1096 A.D.
First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.

1144 A.D.
First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)
This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)

1190 A.D.
Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.
The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.
Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.
Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.
Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.
Expulsion from France.

1348 A.D.
JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.

1389 A.D.
MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.
270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.
Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.
ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.
Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.
EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.
Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.
The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.
Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.
12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.
POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1598 A.D.
Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)

1614 A.D.
JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.
GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.
Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.
Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.
POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.
20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.
MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1858 A.D.
THE MORTARA CASE: Catholics abduct a 7 yr. old Jewish child. A Catholic servant baptized a Jewish child when the child was seriously ill and the church of Rome seized the child. Outcry had no effect on the POPE.

1879 A.D.
Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.
POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.
KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.
FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1894 A.D.
ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.

1903 A.D.
APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.
This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1905 A.D.
Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.

1919 A.D.
3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.

1920 A.D.
Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1925 A.D.
MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.

1933 A.D.
HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.

1935 A.D.
Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.

1938 A.D.
Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.
Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.
Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.
EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.
Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.
EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.
HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.
Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.
BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.
Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.
Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

1967 A.D.
SIX DAY WAR. Also new publication of Elders of Zion in Arabic.

1968 A.D.
Emigration of last remaining Jews in Poland.

1969 A.D.
JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.

1970 A.D.
Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")

1980 A.D.
Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.

1982 A.D.
War in Lebanon begins after many years of terrorist attacks against the Jews in the Upper Galilee area from the vantage point of Beaufort Castle. Many Lebanese killed over long period of time, but was ignored by the News Media. War in Lebanon gets slanted coverage.

1983 A.D.
Word from Christians in Israel that the PLO planned their next battleground to be Canada via Quebec. Documented proof that Russia planned in 1982 to attack Israel. "
Link


You're doing it wrong.

What is it in your book that incites the minority within the Jewish population to alienate those around you? Why does it happen over and again to you?

Unless it's just a great big coincidence, that every time people feel like having a pogrom "Jew" jsut keeps getting drawn out of the hat.

Sick of the professional victim known as the Zionist, you are the most dangerous thing in the world to Jews, you will never let your people live in peace and will always be inciting them, and later hiding amongst them when the shiatrain falls.

Fark Zionism.


Blaming those on the Jews, huh?

You go to the same meetings as Amos? Or is it on another night?
 
2012-11-21 12:14:39 PM
And the reason for this crazy return to an area of the world that hates their living guts? The Torah tells them it's God's promised land of milk and honey ... great guys, you bought the single, greatest lie in the history of mankind and you WONDER why you keep getting your asses kicked all over the world. Give up on Israel, find a nice peaceful area of unsettled land (like the Alaskan interior) and make it your own world of milk and honey ... what is your need to keep being blown up across time because of a sandy piece of Mediterranean?
 
2012-11-21 12:15:03 PM

liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?



Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?
 
2012-11-21 12:22:25 PM

seadoo2006: Give up on Israel, find a nice peaceful area of unsettled land (like the Alaskan interior) and make it your own world of milk and honey


upload.wikimedia.org

Simpsons did it
 
2012-11-21 12:22:51 PM

MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.


Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.

1967. Israel fought off multiple invading forces from Arab neighbors on all sides, and frankly kicked their asses in the process. Israel does not need to fear their neighbors, they've already proven that even without a Nuke they can and will stomp any Arab country that threatens them. If Israel was so interested in dropping The Bomb, they would have by now. On Iraq, for example, to destroy their nuclear program. Instead they went conventional in that raid. Why? Because Israel isn't the blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster you portray it to be.



Really? I portrayed Isreal as a blood thirsty, nuke-happy monster?

You ever wonder why people ignore you?
 
2012-11-21 12:24:09 PM

Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?


Wow, you are really standing behind blaming the Holocaust on the Jews.

I got to say I find that kind of open antisemitism refreshing.

Most of the Jew haters around here don't have the balls to admit what they really think.
 
2012-11-21 12:29:02 PM

Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.


Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.

1967. Israel fought off multiple invading forces from Arab neighbors on all sides, and frankly kicked their asses in the process. Israel does not need to fear their neighbors, they've already proven that even without a Nuke they can and will stomp any Arab country that threatens them. If Israel was so interested in dropping The Bomb, they would have by now. On Iraq, for example, to destroy their nuclear program. Instead they went conventional in that raid. Why? Because Israel isn't the blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster you portray it to be.


Really? I portrayed Isreal as a blood thirsty, nuke-happy monster?

You ever wonder why people ignore you?


Did he attribute the wrong quote to you?

Because saying if it weren't for other arab states they would use nukes is spot on for describing a blood thirsty nuke happy monster.
 
2012-11-21 12:29:27 PM
Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8




j;adsfnasdflasfd.
 
2012-11-21 12:32:30 PM

Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.


Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.

1967. Israel fought off multiple invading forces from Arab neighbors on all sides, and frankly kicked their asses in the process. Israel does not need to fear their neighbors, they've already proven that even without a Nuke they can and will stomp any Arab country that threatens them. If Israel was so interested in dropping The Bomb, they would have by now. On Iraq, for example, to destroy their nuclear program. Instead they went conventional in that raid. Why? Because Israel isn't the blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster you portray it to be.


Really? I portrayed Isreal as a blood thirsty, nuke-happy monster?

You ever wonder why people ignore you?


Allow me to point out a quote for you: I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. You said that, did you not? Pretty sure you did. Yup. You specifically stated that Israel would have used their nukes by now, if it were not for fear of retaliation from Arab states. That, my friend, would be the definition of a blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster.

So yes, you most certainly did portray Israel as such. Live by your words, I'm happy to do so, and so can you. Or you can ignore me, your choice. I really don't give a flip what you do in that regard.
 
2012-11-21 12:34:57 PM

liam76: Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?

Wow, you are really standing behind blaming the Holocaust on the Jews.

I got to say I find that kind of open antisemitism refreshing.

Most of the Jew haters around here don't have the balls to admit what they really think.


I don't blame the "Jews" for the Holocaust or the other 199 pogroms, disporas and general beatdowns. I blame the minority that has always existed within Judaism, that small group that perverts the Law into an excuse to do evil. And they always hide within the ranks of ordinary Jews, so everybody gets blamed and smashed when it comes down.

What's your theory on WHY this has happened to this one people hundreds and hundreds of times. Sheer coincidence?

History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".
 
2012-11-21 12:35:31 PM

Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8


Well, that would be a good thing, assuming it holds.
 
2012-11-21 12:36:11 PM

MmmmBacon: Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8

Well, that would be a good thing, assuming it holds.


No this is the worst thing, because it only means that we will be back at this within 4 years, most likely 2 and possibly months
 
2012-11-21 12:38:28 PM

Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?

Wow, you are really standing behind blaming the Holocaust on the Jews.

I got to say I find that kind of open antisemitism refreshing.

Most of the Jew haters around here don't have the balls to admit what they really think.

I don't blame the "Jews" for the Holocaust or the other 199 pogroms, disporas and general beatdowns. I blame the minority that has always existed within Judaism, that small group that perverts the Law into an excuse to do evil. And they always hide within the ranks of ordinary Jews, so everybody gets blamed and smashed when it comes down.

What's your theory on WHY this has happened to this one people hundreds and hundreds of times. Sheer coincidence?

History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".


Is there any proof that Zionists even really exist? i thought they were a myth, created to justify hatred of Jews in general.

Seriously, I'd like to know.
 
2012-11-21 12:38:59 PM

Insatiable Jesus: History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".


I have to say I laughed, because it's true. It truly makes you wonder what they keep doing to piss off the rest of the world. Oh yeah, open your eyes, they're doing it right now. Fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy, especially if you're already the "most hated" ethic group in the world.

Simmer down, be cool, smoke a doobie, and invite Hamas over for shabbat. I'm sure if you actually listened to what the other wants and ignore the rabble rousing, you might come up with a solution.

But, who am I kidding, keep hurling those rockets and bombs at each other. Your world sympathy bank since WW2 is drying up fast with, as it seems, only the US backing your silly little war anymore.
 
2012-11-21 12:40:24 PM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8

Well, that would be a good thing, assuming it holds.

No this is the worst thing, because it only means that we will be back at this within 4 years, most likely 2 and possibly months


Indeed, but if Bibi agreed to it, there has to be a good reason, no? I don't see him backing down on Washington's or Cairo's request, at this point, without a damn good reason behind it. I'd be interested to see the terms of this cease-fire.
 
2012-11-21 12:48:49 PM
No, because Bibi is weak and a pushover, it's always what ends up happening whenever he gets a wee bit of pressure.


I hope that's the destruction of his career in politics.

Thanks for once again giving us endless war, Bibi
 
2012-11-21 12:52:23 PM

Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?

Wow, you are really standing behind blaming the Holocaust on the Jews.

I got to say I find that kind of open antisemitism refreshing.

Most of the Jew haters around here don't have the balls to admit what they really think.

I don't blame the "Jews" for the Holocaust or the other 199 pogroms, disporas and general beatdowns. I blame the minority that has always existed within Judaism, that small group that perverts the Law into an excuse to do evil. And they always hide within the ranks of ordinary Jews, so everybody gets blamed and smashed when it comes down.

What's your theory on WHY this has happened to this one people hundreds and hundreds of times. Sheer coincidence?

History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".


You don't hate Jews or blame them but you think there is something special about them that allows/causes a small minority to always do evil and they caused the Holocaust?

Not seeing an appreciable difference adolf.


As far as why they are persecuted? Aside from being a minority (which almost always causes problems in tough times). Throughout Christian areas there is the whole usery claims. For muslim areas you should see how Islam treats other religious minorities.

Or there is your theory. It is their fault (for allowing/causing a small minority of evil doers to make them look worse than any other group).
 
2012-11-21 12:53:19 PM

Tatsuma: No, because Bibi is weak and a pushover, it's always what ends up happening whenever he gets a wee bit of pressure.


I hope that's the destruction of his career in politics.

Thanks for once again giving us endless war, Bibi


Interesting. For someone who has been so hawkish of late, you wouldn't think he'd cave like that. I guess Iran can breathe easy, then.
 
2012-11-21 12:53:42 PM

liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Did you see what she was wearing? biatch was asking for it.

I don't see how you can document centuries of atrocities against one group of people and then follow it up with "WTF they must have done something awful to deserve all of that" with a straight face.
 
2012-11-21 12:55:05 PM

MmmmBacon: Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Insatiable Jesus: liam76: Blaming those on the Jews, huh?


Right, like blaming a woman who has been raped 200 times. It happens all the time, right?

Wow, you are really standing behind blaming the Holocaust on the Jews.

I got to say I find that kind of open antisemitism refreshing.

Most of the Jew haters around here don't have the balls to admit what they really think.

I don't blame the "Jews" for the Holocaust or the other 199 pogroms, disporas and general beatdowns. I blame the minority that has always existed within Judaism, that small group that perverts the Law into an excuse to do evil. And they always hide within the ranks of ordinary Jews, so everybody gets blamed and smashed when it comes down.

What's your theory on WHY this has happened to this one people hundreds and hundreds of times. Sheer coincidence?

History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".

Is there any proof that Zionists even really exist? i thought they were a myth, created to justify hatred of Jews in general.

Seriously, I'd like to know.


Zioniss exist, just not the shadowy group of super powerful puppet masters that fark's nazi brigade like to derd about.
 
2012-11-21 12:55:07 PM

cman: Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


Except by imposing a blockade on Gaza to punish the majority of civilians there for the acts of the tiny Hamas minority?
 
2012-11-21 12:57:55 PM

Tatsuma: No, it will actually be possible for two reasons:

1 - We know very well who they are
2 - They can't hide anywhere outside of Gaza


Good job there are no tunnels linking Gaza to countries run by the Muslim Brotherhood, eh?
 
2012-11-21 12:58:36 PM

Tatsuma: No, because Bibi is weak and a pushover, it's always what ends up happening whenever he gets a wee bit of pressure.


You know, I've never seen anyone describe Netanyahu this way.
 
2012-11-21 01:02:12 PM

MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: MmmmBacon: seadoo2006: Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

Israeli special forces would take it from them before it could be used, and now Israel has another bomb to add to the collection. And there would be a lot more dead Palestinians.

MAD will not work in a situation this chaotic.


Isn't that what's going on though? I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. MAD works both ways; it can keep both sides from doing anything or keep both sides upping the stakes one small step at a time.

1967. Israel fought off multiple invading forces from Arab neighbors on all sides, and frankly kicked their asses in the process. Israel does not need to fear their neighbors, they've already proven that even without a Nuke they can and will stomp any Arab country that threatens them. If Israel was so interested in dropping The Bomb, they would have by now. On Iraq, for example, to destroy their nuclear program. Instead they went conventional in that raid. Why? Because Israel isn't the blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster you portray it to be.


Really? I portrayed Isreal as a blood thirsty, nuke-happy monster?

You ever wonder why people ignore you?

Allow me to point out a quote for you: I'd bet if Israel didn't have to worry about other Arab/Islamic states retaliating they'd already have launched. You said that, did you not? Pretty sure you did. Yup. You specifically stated that Israel would have used their nukes by now, if it were not for fear of retaliation from Arab states. That, my friend, would be the definition of a blood-thirsty, nuke-happy monster.

So yes, you most certainly did portray Israel as such. Live by your words, I'm happy to do so, and so can you. Or you can ignore me, your choice. I really don't give a flip what you do in that regard.



Ignoring people isn't MY thing. I just think you misinterpreted what I wrote - it happens.

For the record, I do not believe Israel is blood thirsty or a nuke-monster, nor is that what I said. But, I do believe Israel is facing an enemy that wants them wiped off the face of the earth and they're smart enough to know that and smart enough to know that until their side or the other is gone it's going to be blood and semantics forever. I'm also pretty sure Israel knows that ending this fight once and for all will really only provoke other others that support the other side.
 
2012-11-21 01:04:29 PM

orbister: cman: Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

Except by imposing a blockade on Gaza to punish the majority of civilians there for the acts of the tiny Hamas minority?


Hamas is the Democraticly elected group that runs Gaza.
 
2012-11-21 01:11:21 PM

MmmmBacon: Amos Quito: So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.

Wait, what "endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians"?



LOL! A purely rhetorical question, I presume.


MmmmBacon: If Israel wanted to take every single acre of land currently held by Palestinian groups, they could easily do so. Easily.



Yeah, and you could mug elementary school students for the lunch money - "easily". But you might not like the consequences.


MmmmBacon: And yet, they haven't, have they? In fact, if the evil Zionists were as hell-bent on destroying the Palestinians (as your overall post implies), they have had decades in which they could have done so, again rather easily, having vastly superior military might. Again, this hasn't happened.

Why is that?



Because the worldwide repercussions of such overt naked aggression would be devastating. Israel would immediately come under horrendous sanctions, penalties and possibly even attack from other Western nations. Worse still she would lose the support of Uncle Sugar-daddy, who would cut of her allowance and her access to toys, and then she WOULD be in trouble.

No, all Zionist aggression MUST be disguised as "defense". Israel must ALWAYS play the "victim card" so that her duped supporters will continue to support the suicidal Zionist regime.


MmmmBacon: Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong?


Anything is possible, I suppose.


MmmmBacon: Suggestion: Why not fly on over to Gaza and see about helping the Palestinians yourself? See if you can't talk Hamas into, oh, not launching rockets at Israel from playgrounds and the tops of apartment buildings? Feel free to report back and let us know how that went.


Me? Travel to Gaza? The Zionist version of the Warsaw Ghetto?

Thanks but no thanks.
 
2012-11-21 01:14:46 PM

dr_blasto: You know, I've never seen anyone describe Netanyahu this way.


well you haven't spoken to a lot of Israelis
 
2012-11-21 01:16:42 PM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8

Well, that would be a good thing, assuming it holds.

No this is the worst thing, because it only means that we will be back at this within 4 years, most likely 2 and possibly months



So what's the kill ratio now? Has it hit the 100/1 mark yet?

Because if not, I doubt the Zionists are ready for a cease-fire.
 
2012-11-21 01:17:22 PM

Tatsuma: dr_blasto: You know, I've never seen anyone describe Netanyahu this way.

well you haven't spoken to a lot of Israelis


Heh, I suppose not. His demeanor is all tough-guy on the outside. Maybe he's all soft and fluffy on the inside and just wants to cuddle?
 
2012-11-21 01:20:13 PM

Amos Quito: MmmmBacon: Amos Quito: So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.

Wait, what "endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians"?


LOL! A purely rhetorical question, I presume.


MmmmBacon: If Israel wanted to take every single acre of land currently held by Palestinian groups, they could easily do so. Easily.


Yeah, and you could mug elementary school students for the lunch money - "easily". But you might not like the consequences.


MmmmBacon: And yet, they haven't, have they? In fact, if the evil Zionists were as hell-bent on destroying the Palestinians (as your overall post implies), they have had decades in which they could have done so, again rather easily, having vastly superior military might. Again, this hasn't happened.

Why is that?


Because the worldwide repercussions of such overt naked aggression would be devastating. Israel would immediately come under horrendous sanctions, penalties and possibly even attack from other Western nations. Worse still she would lose the support of Uncle Sugar-daddy, who would cut of her allowance and her access to toys, and then she WOULD be in trouble.

No, all Zionist aggression MUST be disguised as "defense". Israel must ALWAYS play the "victim card" so that her duped supporters will continue to support the suicidal Zionist regime.


MmmmBacon: Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong?


Anything is possible, I suppose.


MmmmBacon: Suggestion: Why not fly on over to Gaza and see about helping the Palestinians yourself? See if you can't talk Hamas into, oh, not launching rockets at Israel from playgrounds and the tops of apartment buildings? Feel free to report back and let us know how that went.


Me? Travel to Gaza? The Zionist version of the Warsaw Ghetto?

Thanks but no thanks.


Warsaw ghetto?

I don't recall the population growing, the standard of living increaseing, them electing a group who wanted to remove Christians from the surrounding country , them lobbing rockets into the surrounding country, but I am sure you have some good reasons to ignore all of that doesn't rest on hating Jews.
 
2012-11-21 01:31:11 PM

Chuck Ruffcorn: Ignoring people isn't MY thing. I just think you misinterpreted what I wrote - it happens.

For the record, I do not believe Israel is blood thirsty or a nuke-monster, nor is that what I said. But, I do believe Israel is facing an enemy that wants them wiped off the face of the earth and they're smart enough to know that and smart enough to know that until their side or the other is gone it's going to be blood and semantics forever. I'm also pretty sure Israel knows that ending this fight once and for all will really only provoke other others that support the other side.


But the problem with using nukes in general, and that particular neighborhood of countries and proto-states is that radiation doesn't respect borders. Israel and the Palestinian-controlled areas are so small that to nuke, let's say Gaza City, would cause horrific damage to Israel itself. And even if Israel were to use their nukes on countries far enough away from them that radiation wouldn't be an issue (let's say Iran, for example), then you have their neighbors to worry about. Russia and China are none-too-keen on the idea of having nukes go off anywhere near them, and while Israel could take on most of the Islamic world by itself, they wouldn't survive a day against the major world powers.

On the other hand, Hamas would be pleased as punch to get a nuke, so they could sneak it into Tel Aviv. They've already made it clear that consequences don't really matter much to them at this point. So, getting back to the original point we were discussing, being MAD, it simply would not work in this particular case. One side has shown they keep nukes only as a promise that any massive attack on them would be day-glo fatal to the attacker's country, and the other side has made it clear they will use any and all weapons at their disposal to destroy Israel. So MAD simply cannot apply here, since MAD requires both sides to equally fear death.
 
2012-11-21 01:32:19 PM

DataShade: You're missing the point. The IDF is already killing, every year, more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has ever killed Israeli citizens. They're doing it through starvation, internment, disproportionate response to protest, summary executions for violation of curfew or trespass of DMZ, and the indiscriminate use of military force in residential areas.

When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


Telling someone who just watched his childhood friend and his entire family get vaporized by a US-made cruise missile that blowing up a bus is unethical because it's targeting civilians is the height of condescension and idiocy.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.


Your bullshiat to word ratio is approaching unity. It's really quite impressive.
 
2012-11-21 01:35:12 PM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


troll or stupid?
 
2012-11-21 01:44:24 PM

Tatsuma: No, because Bibi is weak and a pushover, it's always what ends up happening whenever he gets a wee bit of pressure.


I hope that's the destruction of his career in politics.

Thanks for once again giving us endless war, Bibi



So, what would be your "Final Solution" to the Palestinian Problem, Tatsi?

And you're blaming Bibi's "weakness" for "Endless war"?

Better to place the blame where it belongs: On Theodor Herzl, David Ben Gurion and their Zionist Bankster backers who hatched the BRILLIANT plot of uprooting as many of the world's Jews as possible and moving them into a contrived "Homeland" built in the middle of a faking HORNET'S NEST.

And you can blame EVERY die-hard backer of the racist Zionist scheme since then.

Was this endless war and strife not predictable? Of course it was, and that is precisely why the VAST majority of Jews told the Zionists FARK YOU when they tried to con them into abandoning their homes, lives and livelihoods and moving to Palestine in during the first three decades of the 20th century.

But eventually the Racist Zionists got their way, and the Jews showed up at the gates of the "Homeland", kicking, screaming and miserable.

So there you are, perpetually surrounded by ENEMIES that you have carefully fashioned out of whole cloth, and stuck with millions of people that you hate, despise and CANNOT allow to become part of your society. A Jewish State with a majority of non-Jews would kind of destroy the whole purpose of the Zionist scheme, wouldn't it?

No, I'm afraid that you've painted yourselves into a corner - and that paint will NEVER dry.

What will you do?
 
2012-11-21 01:46:25 PM

Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8



j;adsfnasdflasfd.


Which 8? Greenwich? Jerusalem time? Pacific?
 
2012-11-21 01:49:01 PM

Amos Quito: Better to place the blame where it belongs: On Theodor Herzl, David Ben Gurion and their Zionist Bankster backers who hatched the BRILLIANT plot of uprooting as many of the world's Jews as possible and moving them into a contrived "Homeland" built in the middle of a faking HORNET'S NEST Islam.


FTFY
 
2012-11-21 02:03:26 PM

give me doughnuts: Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8



j;adsfnasdflasfd.

Which 8? Greenwich? Jerusalem time? Pacific?


Hawaii. Duh.
 
2012-11-21 02:03:36 PM

MmmmBacon: Chuck Ruffcorn: Ignoring people isn't MY thing. I just think you misinterpreted what I wrote - it happens.

For the record, I do not believe Israel is blood thirsty or a nuke-monster, nor is that what I said. But, I do believe Israel is facing an enemy that wants them wiped off the face of the earth and they're smart enough to know that and smart enough to know that until their side or the other is gone it's going to be blood and semantics forever. I'm also pretty sure Israel knows that ending this fight once and for all will really only provoke other others that support the other side.

But the problem with using nukes in general, and that particular neighborhood of countries and proto-states is that radiation doesn't respect borders. Israel and the Palestinian-controlled areas are so small that to nuke, let's say Gaza City, would cause horrific damage to Israel itself. And even if Israel were to use their nukes on countries far enough away from them that radiation wouldn't be an issue (let's say Iran, for example), then you have their neighbors to worry about. Russia and China are none-too-keen on the idea of having nukes go off anywhere near them, and while Israel could take on most of the Islamic world by itself, they wouldn't survive a day against the major world powers.

On the other hand, Hamas would be pleased as punch to get a nuke, so they could sneak it into Tel Aviv. They've already made it clear that consequences don't really matter much to them at this point. So, getting back to the original point we were discussing, being MAD, it simply would not work in this particular case. One side has shown they keep nukes only as a promise that any massive attack on them would be day-glo fatal to the attacker's country, and the other side has made it clear they will use any and all weapons at their disposal to destroy Israel. So MAD simply cannot apply here, since MAD requires both sides to equally fear death.




So, your saying Israel IS a blood thirsty nuke-monster, they just don't want to breathe the fallout?

Don't get me wrong. I think we agree: Hamas would shoot nukes if they had them, Israel has them and won't fire them because they're smarter than that. But, it is MAD because one sides intelligence is equal to to the other side's lack of fear.
 
2012-11-21 02:05:56 PM

seadoo2006: What about the millions of Russians that died in WW2? Where is their homeland?


erm... Russia?
 
2012-11-21 02:09:29 PM

Marine1: give me doughnuts: Tatsuma: Israeli and Egyptian sources: Ceasefire to be announced at 8



j;adsfnasdflasfd.

Which 8? Greenwich? Jerusalem time? Pacific?

Hawaii. Duh.


shiat. I'll be up all night watching the news.
 
2012-11-21 02:11:53 PM

meep3d: The USA's constant meddling,regime changes and support of oppressive governments begat 9/11


Hmmmm, not really.

Here's the sequence of events:
Saddam got frisky and invaded Kuwait.
Saudi Arabia got justifiably concerned for their own security.
Osama bin Laden went to the Saudis and insisted, "My holy warriors will be happy to protect you!"
Saudi Arabia laughed at OBL and invited the US military to protect them instead.
OBL got butthurt and issued a fatwa against Americans and Jews for daring to pollute the Holy Peninsula with their infidel feet.
The US didn't give a shiat.
OBL started attacking US embassies in Africa.
Yet the US didn't make OBL Public Enemy #1.
OBL attacked a USN destroyer.
The US still didn't pay OBL enough attention.
OBL decided to do something really, really attention-getting.
9/11
 
2012-11-21 02:13:08 PM

stonelotus: seadoo2006: What about the millions of Russians that died in WW2? Where is their homeland?

erm... Russia?


Yes, because the USSR was a singular ethnic block? I mean, you can see how Chechnya is right now ... why don't they get a homeland free of an overbearing oppressor?
 
2012-11-21 02:18:00 PM

Tatsuma: If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.


Indeed. Israel has had such an inspiring set of leaders: Menachem "Stern Gang" Begin, Ariel "Sabra and Shatila" Sharon, Moshe "Rapist" Katsav and now Benjamin "Corrupt" Netanyahu.
 
2012-11-21 02:22:54 PM
fark "israel".

well armed land thieves are still land thieving murderers.
 
2012-11-21 02:25:16 PM

tekmo: meep3d: The USA's constant meddling,regime changes and support of oppressive governments begat 9/11

Hmmmm, not really.

Here's the sequence of events:
Saddam got frisky and invaded Kuwait.
Saudi Arabia got justifiably concerned for their own security.
Osama bin Laden went to the Saudis and insisted, "My holy warriors will be happy to protect you!"
Saudi Arabia laughed at OBL and invited the US military to protect them instead.
OBL got butthurt and issued a fatwa against Americans and Jews for daring to pollute the Holy Peninsula with their infidel feet.
The US didn't give a shiat.
OBL started attacking US embassies in Africa.
Yet the US didn't make OBL Public Enemy #1.
OBL attacked a USN destroyer.
The US still didn't pay OBL enough attention.
OBL decided to do something really, really attention-getting.
9/11


that's some pretty inaccurate, farked up bullshiat.

"saddam got frisky".

kuwait was slant drilling iraqi land using israeli/saudi technology and assistance.

fark you.
 
2012-11-21 02:27:55 PM

Bauer: fark "israel".

well armed land thieves are still land thieving murderers.


Only if you don't pay the rent. In Uh-mare-i-cuh we call that capitalism.
 
2012-11-21 02:30:05 PM

BattleAxe: CNN Duped By Sad Story Of Dead Palestinian Child 'Killed By Israel'?

Takeaways from this:
1) Hamas kills their own kids and blames Israel.
2) Egypt is playing along with the charade.
3) Bloggers can apparently figure this out with no problem.
4) AP and CNN are incapable of getting any story right.


That's what I wonder about the poor son of Jihad Masharawi. Some kind of projectile went into the house & killed the infant, and a couple of his relatives.

Of course, the Jews did it. I recall reading that the Jews said they weren't doing any operations in the area at the time, but it very well could have been Jew tank shells going astray. Or Arab rockets falling short.

In any case, horrible tragedy. 

/truth is always the first casualty
 
2012-11-21 02:35:49 PM

orbister: Tatsuma: If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

Indeed. Israel has had such an inspiring set of leaders: Menachem "Stern Gang" Begin, Ariel "Sabra and Shatila" Sharon, Moshe "Rapist" Katsav and now Benjamin "Corrupt" Netanyahu.


The minute Israel tries something along the lines of non-violent resistence, is the day Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iran (through Hezbollah and Hamas) all go on a killing spree.
 
2012-11-21 02:39:21 PM


Seems apropos ...
 
2012-11-21 03:45:04 PM

cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent


When you target a building you know has civilians in it, yes, you are targeting civilians. You have decided that it's okay for them to die, and you know they will die, in advance. People have meetings to decide just how many civilians is an acceptable number for "collateral damage" before ordering the strikes, but in NO way is it an accident.

This isn't unique to Israel either, all modern armies (very much including the US) do it. But they don't get to claim it's an accident. "Collateral damage" is sanitized enough, but it's not an accident.
 
2012-11-21 04:09:42 PM

itazurakko: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

When you target a building you know has civilians in it, yes, you are targeting civilians. You have decided that it's okay for them to die, and you know they will die, in advance. People have meetings to decide just how many civilians is an acceptable number for "collateral damage" before ordering the strikes, but in NO way is it an accident.

This isn't unique to Israel either, all modern armies (very much including the US) do it. But they don't get to claim it's an accident. "Collateral damage" is sanitized enough, but it's not an accident.


finally...some degree of truth.
 
2012-11-21 04:35:07 PM
TheOther
--snip ---

Most of my knowledge about Potsdam is from reading Churchill's wanking to get the US to fight the Soviets in Europe rather than getting the Soviets to help finish off Japan. My US education didn't particularly address this other than in a vague 'Kill Commies!'. What is your source on Suzuki's and others attitudes? Two books are still packed away.. I'll try to dig them out before the thread gets locked so I can get the titles for you.

There's also a decent BBC Documentary on the Hirosima bomb iirc aptly titled "Hiroshima" that also reviews these facts.
 
2012-11-21 04:37:10 PM

bah I screwed up the quote tags. Here is is propperly formatted for ease of reading


TheOther
--snip ---

Most of my knowledge about Potsdam is from reading Churchill's wanking to get the US to fight the Soviets in Europe rather than getting the Soviets to help finish off Japan. My US education didn't particularly address this other than in a vague 'Kill Commies!'. What is your source on Suzuki's and others attitudes?
Two books are still packed away.. I'll try to dig them out before the thread gets locked so I can get the titles for you.

There's also a decent BBC Documentary on the Hirosima bomb iirc aptly titled "Hiroshima" that also reviews these facts/quotes/attitudes.
 
2012-11-21 04:54:39 PM

seadoo2006: stonelotus: seadoo2006: What about the millions of Russians that died in WW2? Where is their homeland?

erm... Russia?

Yes, because the USSR was a singular ethnic block? I mean, you can see how Chechnya is right now ... why don't they get a homeland free of an overbearing oppressor?


you said Russians, not Soviets.
 
2012-11-21 04:55:02 PM
20 missiles fired in Israel since the beginning of ceasefire; 11 year old Israeli girl injured
 
2012-11-21 05:06:38 PM

Tatsuma: 20 missiles fired in Israel since the beginning of ceasefire; 11 year old Israeli girl injured



Let's see, Hamas doesn't have MISSILES, only rockets.

Israel HAS missiles, and Tats says that these were fired "in Israel".

That must mean that the "11 year old Israeli girl" was injured by "friendly fire"?

Anyway, congratulations on the failure of the ceasefire. I know you were dreading it.
 
2012-11-21 05:43:53 PM
Zionism is the greatest thing, also responsible for creating the greatest country.
 
2012-11-21 05:45:07 PM

Uncle Tractor: cman: Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Israeli attacks kill so many civilians that it makes no difference whether they're targeting them or not.

[i560.photobucket.com image 580x450]

/no, I'm not defending hamas
//not the rockets either


i950.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-21 06:44:25 PM

Amos Quito: Tatsuma: 20 missiles fired in Israel since the beginning of ceasefire; 11 year old Israeli girl injured


Let's see, Hamas doesn't have MISSILES, only rockets.

Israel HAS missiles, and Tats says that these were fired "in Israel".

That must mean that the "11 year old Israeli girl" was injured by "friendly fire"?

Anyway, congratulations on the failure of the ceasefire. I know you were dreading it.


Those are just fireworks celebrating the cease fire!
 
2012-11-21 06:45:09 PM

OnlyM3: bah I screwed up the quote tags. Here is is propperly formatted for ease of reading


TheOther
--snip ---

Most of my knowledge about Potsdam is from reading Churchill's wanking to get the US to fight the Soviets in Europe rather than getting the Soviets to help finish off Japan. My US education didn't particularly address this other than in a vague 'Kill Commies!'. What is your source on Suzuki's and others attitudes? Two books are still packed away.. I'll try to dig them out before the thread gets locked so I can get the titles for you.

There's also a decent BBC Documentary on the Hirosima bomb iirc aptly titled "Hiroshima" that also reviews these facts/quotes/attitudes.


Thanks. I do appreciate you going to the trouble.
 
2012-11-21 06:53:20 PM

DataShade: If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined, you could roll right up to the goddamn building with an APC and take prisoners, interrogate your enemies, seize documents or materiel.

You know, behave like an actual military instead of a vindictive terrorist organization.


And get your APC blown to bits long before you got there.

And if it wasn't your guys would be shot when they got out of it.

DataShade: Your un-cited, description-free image from imageshack.us is sure to win over hearts and minds. Hey, why don't you ask him if he'd like to trade places with the Palestinian 13-year-old shot to death for no reason by IDF two weeks ago that prompted the rocket launch that prompted the assassination of the Hamas leader that prompted even more rocket launches.


You mean the 13 year old with the missile crew that had just shot an Israeli jeep? Why didn't he just get out of there when he saw what they were doing?? (I see three options: Darwin, human shield or he was part of it.)

seadoo2006: Aka, the Golan Heights is NOT Israel, give it back to Syria. The Gaza Strip is NOT Israel, give it back to Egypt. Go back to your own prescribed borders from 1948 and stop trying to use national security as an excuse to keep increasing the land area of your country. Every time they do so, they piss people off.


Read some history!

Golan? Syria has other demands that Israel won't agree to that scuttle this.

Gaza? Israel *TRIED* to give it back to Egypt as part of their peace deal. Egypt didn't want it.

legion_of_doo: BattleAxe: CNN Duped By Sad Story Of Dead Palestinian Child 'Killed By Israel'?

Takeaways from this:
1) Hamas kills their own kids and blames Israel.
2) Egypt is playing along with the charade.
3) Bloggers can apparently figure this out with no problem.
4) AP and CNN are incapable of getting any story right.

That's what I wonder about the poor son of Jihad Masharawi. Some kind of projectile went into the house & killed the infant, and a couple of his relatives.

Of course, the Jews did it. I recall reading that the Jews said they weren't doing any operations in the area at the time, but it very well could have been Jew tank shells going astray. Or Arab rockets falling short.


Why would there be any Israeli tank shells there? Also, damage is too small to be an Israeli bomb. It's a shortfalling rocket or a total fabrication (note how we don't actually see the face, something unusual.)
 
2012-11-21 07:56:04 PM

itazurakko: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

When you target a building you know has civilians in it, yes, you are targeting civilians. You have decided that it's okay for them to die, and you know they will die, in advance. People have meetings to decide just how many civilians is an acceptable number for "collateral damage" before ordering the strikes, but in NO way is it an accident.

This isn't unique to Israel either, all modern armies (very much including the US) do it. But they don't get to claim it's an accident. "Collateral damage" is sanitized enough, but it's not an accident.


Nobody is saying it is an accident. Hamas wants it.
 
2012-11-21 08:01:13 PM
She was begging for it.

Dressed like that.
 
2012-11-21 09:28:08 PM

give me doughnuts: Your bullshiat to word ratio is approaching unity. It's really quite impressive.


Awww, did widdums feelings get hurt? It sucks to get all your "facts" about life from TV news, huh? Really hurts when you run into someone who knows what some portion of the rest of the world thinks and it turns out you can't even begin to compete.
 
2012-11-21 09:38:47 PM

Chuck Ruffcorn: So, your saying Israel IS a blood thirsty nuke-monster, they just don't want to breathe the fallout?

Don't get me wrong. I think we agree: Hamas would shoot nukes if they had them, Israel has them and won't fire them because they're smarter than that. But, it is MAD because one sides intelligence is equal to to the other side's lack of fear.


Maybe something like MAD, but not truly MAD. I don't think Israel has any intention to use their nukes unless they are under imminent threat of absolute destruction (for example, if Iran ever explodes a nuke and states the next one is for Jerusalem), so no - not a nuke-happy monster. Just using the Big Stick approach to shield itself from absolute destruction.
 
2012-11-21 09:45:56 PM

Loren: And get your APC blown to bits long before you got there.

And if it wasn't your guys would be shot when they got out of it.


It's strange, despite all the civilian casualties we incurred in Iraq, we never had to cruise-missile a residential neighborhood, not even in the "insurgent stronghold" cities. Israel's basically had Gaza under siege for five years - they're using a minimum calorie count to keep the population weak, they're denying medicine and consumer goods, they've even blocked communications ... and yet, according to you and the other chickenhawks, the Hamas fighters are still so damned powerful, coordinated, and dangerous that we have to nuke the site from orbit to be safe.

The IDF must be the weakest, most poorly-trained piece of shiat army on life, OR they must be entirely indifferent to the notion of hundreds of civilian casualties. It's one or the other: shiatty soldiers or war criminals.



You mean the 13 year old with the missile crew that had just shot an Israeli jeep? Why didn't he just get out of there when he saw what they were doing?? (I see three options: Darwin, human shield or he was part of it.)

I mean the 13-year-old who was playing soccer nearby when an IDF soldier was too busy shooting 'terrorists' to check fire. But hey, I'm sure it's more comforting to accept the explanation "well, if he got shot he *obviously* was involved somehow" than to accept that your tax dollars are funding a military that indiscriminately kills children rather than, you know, exercise restraint.



Gaza? Israel *TRIED* to give it back to Egypt as part of their peace deal. Egypt didn't want it.

You're either retarded or trolling. If Israel was willing to give it away, why did they put it under an armed blockade when the Palestinians moved to solidify control? Could it be that they were only willing to give it to Egypt because, since the 80s at least, Egypt was second among Middle-Eastern nations in terms of the amount of US money, aid, and influence it accepted, and Egypt had (since the 80s, at least), a history of violent suppression of upstart groups (those demanding religious freedom or democratic elections, for example) and could thus be counted on to follow US policy or suppress any Palestinian movements?

if Israel literally didn't want Gaza they could have named it the Palestinian state, but that would have required recognizing Palestinian sovereignty and might have forced them to stop putting Palestinian refugees into concentration camps.


I *linked* to news articles and eyewitness-accounts about this stuff in one of my Boobiess in this thread. I understand there's been a lot of action here so it's hard to read everything, but it'd be sweet if bombastic assholes whose only middle-eastern education comes from the Washington Journal and TV news would take just a few minutes to make sure the things "everyone knows" aren't in the same category as "the earth is flat."
 
2012-11-21 09:53:42 PM

inner ted: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

troll or stupid?


I'm guessing both. He's displaying perfect awareness of what I think of as the aggregate US media opinion, so I'm confident he thinks of himself as a well-rounded scholar because he reads the NYTimes *and* the Washington Journal and gets *both sides* of every issue (ignoring the notion that, say, people outside the US might have a relevant opinion on the struggle between a marginalized Arab group and middle-eastern Jews in the territory of the state of Israel).

So he quite likely thinks he's issuing brilliant commentary that will stymie his ignorant opponents and drive them into paroxysms of fury... when, in reality, he's an idiot who's parroting the dumbest journalists on earth.
 
2012-11-21 10:58:10 PM

DataShade: inner ted: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

troll or stupid?

I'm guessing both. He's displaying perfect awareness of what I think of as the aggregate US media opinion, so I'm confident he thinks of himself as a well-rounded scholar because he reads the NYTimes *and* the Washington Journal and gets *both sides* of every issue (ignoring the notion that, say, people outside the US might have a relevant opinion on the struggle between a marginalized Arab group and middle-eastern Jews in the territory of the state of Israel).

So he quite likely thinks he's issuing brilliant commentary that will stymie his ignorant opponents and drive them into paroxysms of fury... when, in reality, he's an idiot who's parroting the dumbest journalists on earth.


indeed.
 
2012-11-21 11:47:38 PM

MmmmBacon: You'll know shiat is about to hit the fan when Hillary Clinton and the UN Secretary-General are suddenly called back to Washington/New York respectively.


it's called Thanksgiving my friend
 
2012-11-21 11:52:42 PM

yousaywut: AverageAmericanGuy: I imagine that when the aliens come and take over the planet, it will look kind of like the Israelis vs the Palestinian wars.

yep pretty much. then it will just suck to be human instead of a specific group.


nope it will be much worst.. at least Israelis have somewhat use restraint in their attacks. Imagine if HAMAS are the ones with the much superior weaponry... that's a more likely comparison with alien invasion.
 
2012-11-21 11:59:56 PM
Actually if current trend continues Israel as we know it today will cease to exist. The Palestinians/Arabs have the most effective weapon of all.. and it doesn't even involve a single bullet or rocket. It's call birthrate. They are breeding like crazy while the jews have a pretty much stagnated birthrate. The only 'jews' who are breeding in any numbers of significance are the real orthodox type jews and as a group they are pretty much useless when it comes to Israeli security, politics or contributing to economic vitality of the state.
 
2012-11-22 02:15:48 AM

SuperNinjaToad: Actually if current trend continues Israel as we know it today will cease to exist. The Palestinians/Arabs have the most effective weapon of all.. and it doesn't even involve a single bullet or rocket. It's call birthrate. They are breeding like crazy while the jews have a pretty much stagnated birthrate. The only 'jews' who are breeding in any numbers of significance are the real orthodox type jews and as a group they are pretty much useless when it comes to Israeli security, politics or contributing to economic vitality of the state.


i agree.

it's always about the numbers.

there will be peace, eventually.
 
2012-11-22 02:17:45 AM

Porous Horace: Zionism is the greatest thing, also responsible for creating the greatest country.


/dripping.
 
2012-11-22 01:44:41 PM

SuperNinjaToad: MmmmBacon: You'll know shiat is about to hit the fan when Hillary Clinton and the UN Secretary-General are suddenly called back to Washington/New York respectively.

it's called Thanksgiving my friend


Why would Ban Ki-Moon celebrate US Thanksgiving?
 
2012-11-22 06:57:31 PM
I wasn't being sarcastic.
 
2012-11-23 09:24:58 AM

Amos Quito: Tatsuma: 20 missiles fired in Israel since the beginning of ceasefire; 11 year old Israeli girl injured


Let's see, Hamas doesn't have MISSILES, only rockets.

Israel HAS missiles, and Tats says that these were fired "in Israel".

That must mean that the "11 year old Israeli girl" was injured by "friendly fire"?

Anyway, congratulations on the failure of the ceasefire. I know you were dreading it.


Any flying projectile can be called a missile.
 
2012-11-23 02:43:13 PM
how about the "missile" that was used to kill the palestinian protestor, today?

he was unarmed...and he was murdered.

a missile fired by an israeli soldier....after the cease fire.
 
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