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(Jerusalem Post) NewsFlash Bus explodes in central Tel Aviv, at least 10 injured   (jpost.com) divider line 405
    More: NewsFlash, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan  
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3741 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Nov 2012 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-11-21 09:44:59 AM
It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.
 
2012-11-21 09:46:22 AM

bostonguy: Completely BS argument. My little brother wants to join the U.S. army one day, so he would be a legitimate target now?

People who say something like "no Israelis are civilians because of the draft" are just twisting logic in indefensible ways to do whatever is necessary to justify what these terrorists are doing.


You're missing the point. The IDF is already killing, every year, more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has ever killed Israeli citizens. They're doing it through starvation, internment, disproportionate response to protest, summary executions for violation of curfew or trespass of DMZ, and the indiscriminate use of military force in residential areas.

When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


Telling someone who just watched his childhood friend and his entire family get vaporized by a US-made cruise missile that blowing up a bus is unethical because it's targeting civilians is the height of condescension and idiocy.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.
 
2012-11-21 09:47:36 AM

ocschwar: When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.


Which "here?" The bus bomb that, it turns out, wasn't planned by people from Gaza at all?
 
2012-11-21 09:52:51 AM

Amos Quito: FTA: Driver of the targeted bus, Nachum Hertzi, 53, said he did not see anyone suspicious on the bus. After the explosion, he said he kept driving and noted the bus was rather empty.


That's a pretty badass bus driver.
 
2012-11-21 09:55:28 AM
War is about killing people and breaking their toys. When a country decides to go to war, it must resign itself to those facts. Atrocities are how wars are won and if you don't have the stomach for that, don't go to war. The handwringing and crocodile tears of the audience do nothing but prolong the fight and increase the risk of dragging the rest of the world into it. If Israel ever wants an end to this game, they need to start killing and not stop until the Palestinians lose their ability and more importantly their will to fight. Of course the same could be said for Israel's enemies... just shut up and do it or just shut up. If you believe your grievances are so large that it is time to kill people over it, then the time to talk has past.  When the war is over, the victor needs to resist the urge to hold hands and comfort the loser... they need to finish up with their pillaging and looting, go home, mourn their dead and tell the rest of the world that this is what happens when you fight with them.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:10 AM

ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.



Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.

Got to build up those numbers!

Hitler / Nazis: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
Holocaust: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
Banishment from Arab countries: Bad for Jews - GOOD for Zionists.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:25 AM
REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.


No, it started because the democratically elected government of Gaza started a rocket campaign, and so
the democratically elected government of Israel decided to deprive the democratically elected government of Gaza with the means to carry out the rocket campaign.
 
2012-11-21 09:57:53 AM

ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.


Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.
 
2012-11-21 09:59:36 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist.



1 Don't use any kind of slur. This should be an absolute no-brainer. If you ever feel the need to call anyone a slur, shut the fark up immediately and go jump in the nearest lake.
Don't call Palestinians "animals" or "savages." This is a dehumanizing tactic, used to justify or diminish attacks against Palestinians on grounds that they aren't really human and don't require the same consideration as people like us. This is racist. Always. In every context.

2 Don't claim Palestinians don't really love their children or don't really value human life. Another dehumanizing tactic is to point to "unnatural" behavior on the part of the targeted group as proof that they are less human.Don't do it. The fact that anyone can repeat this claim even after the front page pictures of Jihad Masharawi carrying his son Omar just boggles my mind.

3 Don't claim Palestinian children are "taught to hate" or somehow less innocent than other children. Another dehumanizing tactic, and a particularly disgusting one, as it's typically used to downplay the deaths of Palestinian children. If you feel the need to say that the deaths of certain children aren't really 44as sad as others, ever, you need to walk away from the discussion at hand.

4 Don't say "Muslim" when you mean Palestinian. I see this a lot. Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but there are plenty of Palestinian Christians, too, as well as other groups. (There were even Palestinian Jews, whose communities predated British control of the area, although needless to say they are now Israelis rather than Palestinians in the current sense.) Not all Palestinians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Palestinian. They aren't interchangeable terms.

5 Don't say "Arab" when you mean Palestinian. Arab is a wider term, encompassing an entire ethnic group and bloc of countries. Palestinians are a distinct group within the Pan-Arab world, with their own unique culture, customs, and Arabic dialect. Use the appropriate term in the appropriate context, rather than making blanket statements about wider groups than you intend.

6 Don't claim Islam is inherently violent and evil. People who believe this are comparing Islam as practiced in poverty-stricken areas to Christianity or Judaism as practiced in affluent areas. See the problem there? People who are poor and oppressed, on the whole, engage in more violence and subscribe to more extremist forms of religions-regardless of what religions they practice, because the real problem isn't the religion, it's the poverty and oppression.Attacking an entire religion in this way is not only based on apples-to-oranges nonsense, but tinged with racism as well. (Before you protest that last assertion, look up just how many of the Islamic practices people freak out about are also practiced by Jews, then see if you can still come up with a reason for attacking only Islam that doesn't rest on the fact that the stereotypical Jew is white-passing but the stereotypical Muslim is not.)

7 Don't say or imply that all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorists. It's not true, and it smacks of dehumanizing ("we don't need to treat them with the same consideration we give people like us because they're inherently evil and violent"). I'm betting many of you would rather not be judged by some of the actions of your current government, so don't do the same thing to others.

8 Don't use any variant of the "we made the desert bloom" trope. This is basically the same racist argument European settlers in the Americas used-claiming they deserved the land because they made better use of it than the people whose land it originally was. In fact, Palestinians were farming, tending orchards, and raising livestock on the land well before Israel existed. Even if they weren't, "I took it because I could make better use of it" wouldn't get you off a theft charge in court, so why is it relevant here?

9 Don't use any variant of the "a land without a people for a people without a land" trope. See the previous point. There were most definitely people on the land before Israel. To deny that is to erase the existence of Palestinians and their history. Erasure of a culture is never okay.

10 Don't claim there is "no such thing" as Palestine or Palestinians. This also applies to people who put Palestine and Palestinian in quotation marks. Quibbling with the terms people choose to describe themselves and their culture is another form of erasure. Palestinians obviously exist. You don't have the right to decide what they can and can't call themselves.

11 Don't say Palestinians have no historical connection to the land or should go back to "their real countries." Again, Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country. Once again, the words Palestinian and Arab are not interchangeable. Just because Palestinians are Arab doesn't mean they have the same culture and history as Arabs in other countries, any more than being a white American gives someone the same culture and history as white Europeans.

12 Don'tcall Palestinians "Amalek" or cite Torah/Bible verses calling for the extermination of non-Jewish groups in Canaan. Calling for genocide isn't remotely farking acceptable, ever, and couching it in religion doesn't make it any more so. I can't believe I even have to say this. STOP.

13 Don't visually depict Palestinians using Arab racial stereotypes. Don't sexualize or exoticize Palestinian women.

14 Don't portray Palestinian men as leering, claw-fingered, keffiyah-and-robe-wearing, hook-nosed villains with bombs strapped to their chests. Avoid using camels, tents, or polygamy imagery.

15 Don't demand that Palestinians or their allies take public note of Israeli casualties, affirm Israel's right to exist, or publicly repudiate Hamas.People who make this demand are assuming that Palestinians are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they "prove" themselves acceptable by Zionists' standards.

16 Don't blow off Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims if they tell you what you are saying is racist or Islamophobic. Not all pro-Israel speech is racist, but some undeniably is. Actually give the accusation your consideration and hear the accuser out. If they fail to convince you, that's fine. But at least hear them out (without talking over them) before you decide that.


Palestinians may care about their children, but the group they elected in Gaza, Hamas, cares more about killing Israeli civilians and the lives of their fighters more than their children.

There is no other reason for them to launch rockets from the middle of neighborhoods.
 
2012-11-21 09:59:36 AM
Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.


Take it up with the Arabs who massacred their Jewish minorities, subjected them to savage repression and drove them into Israel.

Or better yet, get a painful cancer and die. You've established pretty well that the world will smell better without you.
 
2012-11-21 10:00:35 AM
Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully,

Iraqi Jews stole nothing from anyone.

They were massacred, repressed byt he government, and driven into Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:02:50 AM
When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

imageshack.us
 
2012-11-21 10:07:10 AM

ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]


I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.
 
2012-11-21 10:09:24 AM
I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy.

I've got a better idea: get the Arab nations to establish a less-than-abysmal record for treating minorities, and Israelis might consider that.
 
2012-11-21 10:10:12 AM
I'm just gonna leave THIS here. The sane people will appreciate it.
 
2012-11-21 10:10:42 AM

DataShade: liam76: When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

It's like you people didn't learn anything from our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine, and, while they're still holding the bodies of the dead children, say, "Now, whose side are you on, mine or the terrorist who's shooting at me," they will always pick the terrorist, because you've proven you're worse than he is.


Newsflash they already elected Hamas. They are on the side of the terrorists.

I don't think striking back is going to make Palestinians love then, but the fact remains when Hamas puts a rocket launcer in a building they are responsible for the civilians who are killed when it is destroyed.
 
2012-11-21 10:11:38 AM

seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.


So that boy did those things?
 
2012-11-21 10:11:42 AM
I think this link would validate a News Flash moreso if there WASN'T a bombing in Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:13:53 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-21 10:14:53 AM

DataShade: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


Do you really think Israel is saying, "Look! There's a civilian home! Let's bomb it!"

No, Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas, giving the IDF no choice but to strike those areas when it goes after the terrorists. Hamas does it intentionally to get the worldwide PR and sympathy.

The civilian deaths are Hamas' fault.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:17 AM
Tatsuma,

Question: Do you support the creation of an independent palestinean state? I know you will respond to this with conditions and a history lesson, etc etc, but ignoring all that, and forgetting potential borders, do you support the creation of an independent palestine as your neighbor?

seriously, I'm curious. Not trying to troll.
 
2012-11-21 10:15:20 AM

ocschwar: I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy.

I've got a better idea: get the Arab nations to establish a less-than-abysmal record for treating minorities, and Israelis might consider that.


So, the Israelis are incapable of ever having the moral high ground. Got it. You know, there might actually be peace in the Middle East if you guys would just stop this f*ckery and you know, acted like grown ups. That understand when you silence a group of people who have JUST AS MUCH OF A RIGHT TO LIVE THERE AS YOU, you're going to get 65 years of war, rocket attacks, bus bombs, and general behavior of two petulant children arguing over whose turn on the swing set it is.

Grow the f*ck up, otherwise, someone is going to get smart, give the Palestinians a bomb to counter the "Jewish" bomb and turn the whole area into a radioactive crater (which, after this long of fighting, actually seems like the new high ground) ... If you can't work it out yourselves, you're all going to lose.

KA-BOOM.
 
2012-11-21 10:18:09 AM

Marine1: seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.

So that boy did those things?


Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs. That boy is young enough where his parents were completely aware of the 65 year war that has been going on, this should no longer surprise anyone.
 
2012-11-21 10:19:34 AM

seadoo2006: Marine1: seadoo2006: ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.

So that boy did those things?

Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs. That boy is young enough where his parents were completely aware of the 65 year war that has been going on, this should no longer surprise anyone.


Then do shiat to the parents. Don't to it to some kid. Sheesh. I mean if you're gonna disfigure and maim people at least do it to the right dude.
 
2012-11-21 10:19:42 AM
So, the Israelis are incapable of ever having the moral high ground

Israelis are a Mideastern minority that successfully secured an enclave where they cannot be treated the way Sunni Arabs treat minorities.

We have what Copts, and Druze, and Alawis, and Kurds, and Berbers, all dream about.

All the Arabs have to do to get the moral high ground is prove Israel to be un-necessary, and all they have to do that is be decent towards other minorities.

Notice that is not happening.
 
2012-11-21 10:21:07 AM

DataShade: MmmmBacon: Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.

There's almost nothing correct about your entire description.

Back in 2006, Israel and the US pressured the PNA into holding new elections because they thought they could achieve a sort of "regime change" and get the (then US-friendly) Fatah a full sweep of the Palestinian parliament; instead, Hamas won a significant majority. Israel and the US refused to recognize the election (and has since refused to allow any further elections). Fatah was given shipments of arms from the US government to defeat the democratically elected Palestinian government, and started a Palestinian civil war, which ended up with the West Bank controlled by US-friendly (but perceived corrupt) Palestinian politicians, with Hamas holed up in Gaza.

Israel has proceeded to use the pretext of violent unrest to block shipments of food and medicine to Gaza, launch military raids into civilian centers, and assassinate elected leaders.


Now Hamas is making desperate attempts to fight back and you're saying "well, they started it!" That's crazy-talk.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
2012-11-21 10:21:13 AM
Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs.

Stay in Morocco, watch as your 11 year old daughter is kidnapped, and know that she has been forcibly "married" and you will never see her again.

Welcome to the Jewish experience.
 
2012-11-21 10:24:47 AM

ocschwar: Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs.

Stay in Morocco, watch as your 11 year old daughter is kidnapped, and know that she has been forcibly "married" and you will never see her again.

Welcome to the Jewish experience.


Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.

Like I said, give the Palestinians the bomb to counteract the Israeli nuclear armament and sit back and watch what happens. My guess is that MAD might actually work, but if not, the result is an uninhabitable holy land for the next century. Both I am okay with.
 
2012-11-21 10:26:04 AM

ocschwar: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 640x439]


what i notice about that cartoon:
- only one hits the israeli side
- there are multiple hits on the hamas side
- there are no men on the israeli side
- there are no women on the hamas side
- the one rocket which hit israel is far away
- the multiple rockets which hit hamas side are very close
- there is no backup for hamas
- israel not only sent rockets eye for an eye style, they sent airdropped bombs -- is that plane supposed to represent Israel or the US (or whomever Israel is cuddling up to that morning, since Israel has no allies except itself, only nations to use like a trick)?


so, why is lil ol israel afraid of hamas and their single bomb? when israel has multiple bombs and air strike force on top?
 
2012-11-21 10:27:41 AM
Provoking the Muslim/Arab world by instigating a heavy-handed military action by Israel is perhaps the end-game strategy here? Hamas can't possibly hope to prevail in a military conflict with Israel after all...

Thoughts?
 
2012-11-21 10:27:44 AM
Sounds like they knew what they were getting into.

So, let's see: you've been confronted with the facts about the treatment of the Jewish community in the Arab world, and you don't give a flying fark.

Since you're talking about the moral high ground, answer this: what possible argument can you offer to show that YOU have th moral high ground??
 
2012-11-21 10:28:26 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Fibro: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians

It's just one of the world's funny quirks that the people not targeting civilians kill tons more civilians.

 
2012-11-21 10:29:18 AM

so, why is lil ol israel afraid of hamas and their single bomb?


Because this is what it does.

imageshack.us
 
2012-11-21 10:29:30 AM
So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?
 
2012-11-21 10:30:04 AM

ArmanTanzarian: Provoking the Muslim/Arab world by instigating a heavy-handed military action by Israel is perhaps the end-game strategy here? Hamas can't possibly hope to prevail in a military conflict with Israel after all...

Thoughts?


Unlikely. The Arab world is now in the position where they at least have to pretend to get along with Israel in order to please the US. They won't be brazen enough to launch organized military strikes on Israel.
 
2012-11-21 10:30:35 AM
So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?


Lots more shots on goal from Hamas's side. No hits. Does that upset you?
 
2012-11-21 10:35:50 AM

bostonguy: DataShade: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.

Do you really think Israel is saying, "Look! There's a civilian home! Let's bomb it!"

No, Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas, giving the IDF no choice but to strike those areas when it goes after the terrorists. Hamas does it intentionally to get the worldwide PR and sympathy.

The civilian deaths are Hamas' fault.


If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined, you could roll right up to the goddamn building with an APC and take prisoners, interrogate your enemies, seize documents or materiel.

You know, behave like an actual military instead of a vindictive terrorist organization.
 
2012-11-21 10:36:34 AM

If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined,


You must be new here.
 
2012-11-21 10:41:29 AM

ocschwar: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into.

So, let's see: you've been confronted with the facts about the treatment of the Jewish community in the Arab world, and you don't give a flying fark.

Since you're talking about the moral high ground, answer this: what possible argument can you offer to show that YOU have th moral high ground??


Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own. Again, I've said it a thousand times ... make every willing Palestinian a full and free citizen of the Israeli state and offer the current Palestinian government equal representation in a newly reformed state.

Unless you guys truly LIKE getting randomly blown up by rockets, I can't imagine any other reason why this poses such a problem to you. Oh, that's right, the Zionists don't believe in peace with the Palestinians, they believe in hopefully getting them all to leave without being blown up in the process.

Either treat them like humans and invite them to the table, or enjoy your rocket attacks. But please, stop trying to con the US and UN into feeling sorry for you starting and provoking a continued war for 60+ years ... figure it out yourselves.

Me? I think the whole lot of you should be moved out of the region and it vaporized and returned back to the Mediterranean sea.
 
2012-11-21 10:42:31 AM

seadoo2006: ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.


The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.
And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.

Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.



Actually the British were trying to remain fair to the native Palestinians - or at least as fair as possible - given that they had sold their soul to the Zionists via the Balfour Declaration of 1917:

QUOTE:

Dear Lord Rothschild,

[...]

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

END QUOTE (Note the bolded)

The above declaration was the formalization of a quid pro quo agreement in which the Brits promised to secure Palestine as a "national home" for Jews IN EXCHANGE for Zionists securing financing (and other "help") for the struggling Brits in WWI (1917).

It served the purposes of the Zionists (who had been struggling in vain to get their grubby paws on Palestine for decades), and the Brits who were on the verge of losing the war without additional funding (and other "things", such as help from Uncle Sam, etc).

While this served the interests of the Zionists, they were frustrated to discover that (A) very few Jews had any interest in moving to "the Homeland", and (B) that the Brits intended to live up to their pledge NOT to "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

OF course the Zionists had NO interest in sharing "their land" with a bunch of filthy Palestinian natives, so when the British insisted on a degree of fairness and equity, the Zionists decided that they had no further need for these Limeys, and politely asked them to leave by bombing the shiat out of their headquarters in the King David Hotel.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

This remains the single deadliest act of terrorism EVER committed in Palestine, murdering 91 and injuring 46. The mastermind of the plot was eventually found, and the Zionists "punished" him by electing him Prime Minister of Israel.

upload.wikimedia.org


So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.
 
2012-11-21 10:42:48 AM

ocschwar: When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.


If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]


Your un-cited, description-free image from imageshack.us is sure to win over hearts and minds. Hey, why don't you ask him if he'd like to trade places with the Palestinian 13-year-old shot to death for no reason by IDF two weeks ago that prompted the rocket launch that prompted the assassination of the Hamas leader that prompted even more rocket launches.


The point is: Israel cannot claim the moral high ground when they're doing more damage to more civilians and causing more terror to civilians than their supposed-terrorist enemies.
 
2012-11-21 10:44:30 AM

seadoo2006: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.


One of their grievances is the mere existence of Jews. Do you think they plan on dropping that goal if you give them equal representation?
 
2012-11-21 10:48:56 AM

ocschwar: If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined,

You must be new here.


Then give Gaza the tax money Israel's been sitting on since 2006 and stop the blockade. The Palestinians will buy cars and they can soak up the mineblasts, *then* you can sit smugly at your computer and claim that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives.
 
2012-11-21 10:51:44 AM

Cataholic: seadoo2006: Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.

One of their grievances is the mere existence of Jews. Do you think they plan on dropping that goal if you give them equal representation?


Really? Show me that the whole of Palestine wants the destruction is Israel. My guess is that when you talk to the Palestinians who have been oppressed for years, that food, water, medical care, and education are all held over the destruction of the Israeli state.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas because they were being crushed and Hamas said the right things. Now, it's home to settle the difference and get along. Seriously, this isn't that hard ... it only seems hard because THEY'VE NEVER TRIED.
 
2012-11-21 10:52:16 AM
TheOther

OnlyM3: * Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.

That is an amazing conclusion to draw from Potsdam. What is the reasoning?
Fair question, and due to the utter failure of U.S. education system.. not a completely surprising one.


Prime Minister Suzuki & Foreign minister Shigenori Tōgō were considering a negotiated "settlement" to the war.

Army Minister General Korechika Anami opposed any cessation of military action. His plan was for an all out final battle. His stance was that the US had no stomach to continue the fight and force the earlier unconditional surrender demands.


July 16 '45 Potsdam - The U.S. had already broken the Japaneese codes and were able to decypher communications. Truman therefore knew there was resistance to the Unconditional Surrender ultimatum. In what was in Truman's mind an effort to give the Japaneese a chance to "back down", the ultimatum was modified to surrender of the armed forces of Japan. This would give the Japaneese an open door to keep the Emperor and soften the terms. Instead, this backfired (as it always does -see the placation of Hitler by Chamberlain etc..). When this modified declaration was broadcast to japan, this softening of the terms was seen as a "promising development" by Suzuki and the rest who felt "for the enemy to say something like that means circumstances have arrisin that force them to end the war" (aka back down) "that is why they are no longer insisting on full unconditional surrender." They felt that in light of this weakening (much like hitler saw the weakness of the allies, much like Osama saw clintons failure to stand up to him*) as an opening and that we (the U.S) would not hold firm, but would yield.

In light of this perceived weakened stance, Prime Minister Suzuki -who as earlier shown had supported surrender- announced that his government would ignore the Potsdam declaration. In his declaration, he used the word "mokusatsu", meaning to kill with silent contempt.

That made the Hiroshima bomb inevitable.


Next question? 


*history is full of such examples, if you don't like these two(2) pick any of dozens of others
 
2012-11-21 10:52:32 AM

ocschwar: Oh boo-farking-hoo.

Moving Jews INTO Palestine - from WHEREVER - by whatever means necessary, is EXACTLY what the ZIONISTS wanted - and STILL want, if you recall.


Take it up with the Arabs who massacred their Jewish minorities, subjected them to savage repression and drove them into Israel.



Which, as I said previously, was EXACTLY what the Zionists wanted and NEEDED.

So, while this "savage repression" (as you called it) was BAD for Jews, it was farking GREAT for Zionists, who desperately needed all of the warm Jewish bodies they could get - by whatever means necessary - to populate the budding Zionist State.

I don't think you've thought this through very well, ocschwar. If you had you would realize that the Jewish PEOPLE have NO greater enemy than Zionism.

Shalom, bub.
 
2012-11-21 10:52:58 AM

ocschwar: So is the score still 100 dead Palestinians to 3 dead Israelis? Or have I missed some more action?


Lots more shots on goal from Hamas's side. No hits. Does that upset you?


I think you have your iron dome on too tight
 
2012-11-21 11:02:24 AM
Because I believe in democracy ... treat everyone fairly and stop trying to 'payback' your abuses with abuses of your own.

Then why aren't you lecturing Arabs to try treating their minorities better?

Why are you blaming Moroccan Jews for their imputent decision to flee that hellhole?
 
2012-11-21 11:04:55 AM


Your un-cited, description-free image from imageshack.us is sure to win over hearts and minds.


It's there to establish a simple point, which you insist on ignoring, which is that these rockets kill and maim, and therefore give the IDF causus belli.
 
2012-11-21 11:07:32 AM
reminds me of this Ahmed and Salim Episode
 
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