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		Bus explodes in central Tel Aviv, at least 10 injured (jpost.com)		405
		More: NewsFlash, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan

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give me doughnuts		2012-11-21 08:43:03 AM

Sometimes, missing the civilians is difficult.

aedude01		2012-11-21 08:43:39 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?

Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.

Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.

Simple solution: Carpet bomb the place. If they want to booby trap everything, then don't leave anything standing. Call it the '30 second' war or something to that effect.

/Being facetious

HotWingConspiracy		2012-11-21 08:44:06 AM

dr_blasto: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.

Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.

We can say that of Palestine as well then.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat?

They put right wingers in charge. And they're plenty happy to look the other way in regard to other rather heinous actions in Palestine.

The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.

Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 08:46:15 AM

Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.

Nobody wants Gaza. Not even the Gazans.

Gleeman		2012-11-21 08:46:15 AM

Disgruntled Goat: Or, as they call it in that region, "Wednesday."

I was about to ask if the Obvious tag was on vacation, but I think that's been covered.

TheOther		2012-11-21 08:47:31 AM

kregh99: Both sides have so much blood on their hands, the right/wrong argument is really irrelevant at this point. The only thing that matters is who can win.

If Netanyahu decides to let the Israeli army off the chain, the arab population in that region will be reduced by very signficant numbers.

The highest estimate of IDF KIA that I found was 2800 in the Yom Kippur War and that was a major shock to the Israelis. At this point, Hamas may be in a 'F*ck it, we'll go Stalingrad' position and firing rockets to provoke a ground invasion. Israel can do stand-off, but getting into a house-to-house fight in the midst of 1.5 million Palestinians is probably not a sustainable strategy for them.

liam76		2012-11-21 08:47:45 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?
Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.
Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield

When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 08:49:40 AM

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

Not even the half of it. Gaza used to have a functioning sewer system (Israeli built, natch).

Hamas dug it up to use the pipes for rockets.

These farkers are so intent on killing they're willing to inflict diarrhea on their own babies.

AnubisMan		2012-11-21 08:50:34 AM

War. War never changes.

RussianPooper		2012-11-21 08:52:53 AM

Disgruntled Goat: Or, as they call it in that region, "Wednesday."

That's absurd! They call it Yom Revee´ee.

Fibro		2012-11-21 08:53:08 AM

DataShade: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.

I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 08:54:13 AM

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

And that difference is codified in great detail in the Geneva Conventions, which Israel haters always invoke but never read.

DeaH		2012-11-21 08:56:45 AM

Ireland and Great Britain for the 21st Century.

satorivt		2012-11-21 08:56:48 AM

Guardian reporter Chris McGreal, reporting from Beit Lahiya, Gaza, quotes a Palestinian named Mohammed al-Khoudry:

"I've really tried to understand the Israelis. I used to work on a farm in Israel. I speak Hebrew. I watch their news. All the time they talk about fear. How they have to run to their bunkers to hide from the rockets. How their children can't sleep because of the sirens. This is no
t a good way for them to live," said Khoudry, who now scrapes a living growing his own produce.

"We Palestinians don't talk about fear, we talk about death. Our rockets scare them; their rockets kill us. We have no bomb shelters, we have no sirens, we have nowhere we can take our children and keep them safe. They are scared. We are dying."

DataShade		2012-11-21 08:56:59 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.

You realize that what you're saying is the Palestinians have to produce a leader of the calibre seen only a few times a century or the Israeli government is going to genocide them, but since they haven't done that they get what they deserve?

Why isn't "the US and the international community should prevent Israel from committing genocide" an option? It worked in Serbia, no?

HotWingConspiracy		2012-11-21 08:57:13 AM

Fibro: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians

It's just one of the world's funny quirks that the people not targeting civilians kill tons more civilians.

TheOther		2012-11-21 08:59:06 AM

Fibro: DataShade: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.

I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

Does Hamas have sophisticated enough guidance systems to target only military sites? I guess if Israel dropped the blockade of Gaza, Hamas could upgrade, but how likely is that?

deffuse		2012-11-21 08:59:48 AM

DataShade: It worked in Serbia, no?

a fair few people died before the International community stepped in, but yeah.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:00:37 AM

Does Hamas have sophisticated enough guidance systems to target only military sites?

Hamas has an established track record of timing their rocket attacks at 7:55 AM to maximize the chance of hitting school kids.
If they had guidance, they would not use it to target military sites.

DataShade		2012-11-21 09:02:01 AM

aedude01: Not everyone serves in the military. If you have a religious objection to doing so, or a health reason you can be assigned to work for the government in a non-military role. Not to state the obvious, but kids can't serve in the military and therefore should be classified as 'civilians.'

They can't serve, but barring health or religious objection, they *will.* The Israelis have been blockading/bombing/raiding Gaza for five years based on the idea that, since it's a Hamas stronghold, if they don't attack now "eventually" they'll kill an Israeli citizen.

So ... by that logic, there are no civilian targets in Israel - except the tourists and the ill.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:03:55 AM

The Israelis have been blockading/bombing/raiding Gaza for five years based on the idea that, since it's a Hamas stronghold,

No, the IDF has been raiding individual targets within Gaza.
And those targets have been legitimate targets: individuals belonging to Hamas, arms stores, et cetera.

If the IDF ever "raids Gaza", Gaza will become a parking lot.

TheOther		2012-11-21 09:08:14 AM

Has the Exodus/Raid on Entebbe/Ten Commandments/Masada/Schindler's List marathon that always gets shown during these crises been scheduled yet?

Uncle Tractor		2012-11-21 09:08:58 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: That won't happen, because then the Arabs in the country will outnumber the Jews, and Israel will no longer be a "Jewish state." Of course, there's a name for when an ethnic minority rules over an ethnic majority.

Outnumber the jews by how much? IMO the fringes on both sides will cancel each other out in an election, leaving only the middle, which consists of people who only want to live their lives in peace.

Of course that means the end to the "jewish state," but good riddance to that.

dr_blasto		2012-11-21 09:10:24 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.

Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.

We can say that of Palestine as well then.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat?

They put right wingers in charge. And they're plenty happy to look the other way in regard to other rather heinous actions in Palestine.

The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.

Inside influences aren't much interested either. Nobody believe that Bibi is interested in peace. It's a laughable assertion. They want that land, and they're going to get it.

There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence. In the end, Israel doesn't need to care. They can just build a new wall along whatever border they think is appropriate and there's fark-all anything anyone can do about it. They can build more settlements, bulldoze more houses, they can cut off water, power and food supplies. They don't have to change as they have all the power as long as power and success are determined by force. That's not to say Israel is right or wrong, it is simply the fact of life on the ground. The only way for the Palestinians to win is to stop fighting on Israel's terms with guns and bombs and force Israel to deal with them as people.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:10:30 AM

Outnumber the jews by how much?

By enough. In case you haven't noticed, the Sunni Arab record for treatment of minorities is abysmal, and nobody in his right mind would every choose to be a minority among them. Doesn't work for Copts, Druze, Alawis, Berbers, Jews, or anyone else.

HotWingConspiracy		2012-11-21 09:14:16 AM

dr_blasto: There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence.

How is that working out for Abbas? Israel isn't interested in this nonsense. They have and end game in mind, it truly doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.

bostonguy		2012-11-21 09:15:17 AM

DataShade: Aren't all Israeli citizens required to serve at least one year in the IDF? Aren't all Israelis thus soldiers, former soldiers, or future soldiers?

Completely BS argument. My little brother wants to join the U.S. army one day, so he would be a legitimate target now?

People who say something like "no Israelis are civilians because of the draft" are just twisting logic in indefensible ways to do whatever is necessary to justify what these terrorists are doing.

Molavian		2012-11-21 09:16:10 AM

Carpet bombing.

dr_blasto		2012-11-21 09:17:32 AM

DataShade: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.

You realize that what you're saying is the Palestinians have to produce a leader of the calibre seen only a few times a century or the Israeli government is going to genocide them, but since they haven't done that they get what they deserve?

Why isn't "the US and the international community should prevent Israel from committing genocide" an option? It worked in Serbia, no?

Where does this path they're on lead? Really, there's no violent solution the Palestinians can win and there's no way millions of people can live indefinitely in the conditions they're subjected to.

Don't read into what I've said as justification for escalation of violence or ends for either side. I'm only writing what I think I could see as the only way you'd see actual peace in Israel and something that ends up better than glorified refugee camps for the Palestinians. Israel isn't going to go all genocidey and just simply wipe the Palestinians out. They will win the war of attrition.

TheOther		2012-11-21 09:18:14 AM

Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?

Marine1		2012-11-21 09:18:26 AM

Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.

Brubold		2012-11-21 09:18:50 AM

MmmmBacon: Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!

Yep. One side purposely targets the other's civilians and hides behind their own when they fire their rockets. Yet that's not the side that's evil to the fringe left.

HotWingConspiracy		2012-11-21 09:21:57 AM

TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?

Well they don't generally rock turbans there, that plan has some flaws.

TheOther		2012-11-21 09:22:00 AM

Marine1: Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.

Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?

Molavian		2012-11-21 09:23:19 AM

TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?

Let's be realistic, here.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:23:26 AM

Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?

That's the problem.

seadoo2006		2012-11-21 09:24:41 AM

Give the Palestinians a nuke, make the fight fair and watch the show.

/Popcorn ...

dr_blasto		2012-11-21 09:25:16 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: There's only one way to stop encroachment and only one way to get some viability economically and socially. It isn't through violence.

How is that working out for Abbas? Israel isn't interested in this nonsense. They have and end game in mind, it truly doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.

Violence hasn't worked. There are still skirmishes in West Bank, too. Unless there's a massive change here, I can't see an end that works out well for the Palestinians.

Again, I'm not trying to justify actions on either part. Given the history of the conflict to date, looking at how support has remained unchanged and looking at any other conflict like this, I can't say there is any model I can see historically where the Palestinians have any other chance.

DataShade		2012-11-21 09:26:51 AM

Fibro: I love how you have stopped responding to comments in this thread since you are generally wrong in everything you say.

I will try to simplify this a bit for you: Both sides are hitting civilians but only one side is ACTIVELY TARGETING civilians. There is quite a difference whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

I stopped responding because it's been hours, I'm home from work, and my daughter's awake.

There's no honor in claiming to not actively target civilians when, instead, you act with depraved indifference towards civilian casualties. If you launch a missile knowing it's going to land in a residential neighborhood, or if you set off a bomb on a bus in a residential neighborhood - there's no moral or ethical difference.

You *want* there to be a difference so you can sleep at night, but that's not law or logic, it's "exceptionalism."

Amos Quito		2012-11-21 09:27:16 AM

cman: GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

'while unfortunate....'
'While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

As military service in Israel is mandatory, virtually every man, woman or child in Israel is was, or will soon be a valid military target.

No?

DataShade		2012-11-21 09:28:58 AM

Brubold: MmmmBacon: Hamas wants a cease-fire, huh? Israel is the aggressor, killing women and children, huh?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHT!

Yep. One side purposely targets the other's civilians and hides behind their own when they fire their rockets. Yet that's not the side that's evil to the fringe left.

Israel's blocked food and medicine to a civilian population for going on five years now. Right-wingers are ready to burn shiat down or secede from the union if their under-achieving children get denied college scholarships, but it's "fringe" to think maybe Israel should stop shooting 13-year-olds playing soccer or open fire on unarmed people who just happen to get too near to the edge of a buffer zone? You're either ignorant or an asshole.

TheOther		2012-11-21 09:29:15 AM

HotWingConspiracy: TheOther: Molavian: Carpet bombing.

If that's the way you're going to go, why not just send them some turbans infected with smallpox?

Well they don't generally rock turbans there, that plan has some flaws.

Sorry. Keffiyeh.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:29:48 AM

As military service in Israel is mandatory, virtually every man, woman or child in Israel is was, or will soon be a valid military target.

"Nits make lice."

Lt. Chivington's stated justification for ordering the Sand Creek Massacre in Colorado.

Sink some lower, Amos. Show more of your true colors.

OnlyM3		2012-11-21 09:30:50 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu

Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who ~~dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own'~~ clearly failed both history and current events.

Violent response by victims ends violent crime almost daily.
Violent response by women has ended/prevented many a rape attempt.
Violence ended Nazi Germany.
Violence ended Imperial japan.*
etc.. etc...etc...

* Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.

Amos Quito		2012-11-21 09:31:36 AM

WEIRD QUOTE OF THE DAY:

FTA: Driver of the targeted bus, Nachum Hertzi, 53, said he did not see anyone suspicious on the bus. After the explosion, he said he kept driving and noted the bus was rather empty.

www.jpost.com

DataShade		2012-11-21 09:32:16 AM

liam76: When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

It's like you people didn't learn anything from our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine, and, while they're still holding the bodies of the dead children, say, "Now, whose side are you on, mine or the terrorist who's shooting at me," they will always pick the terrorist, because you've proven you're worse than he is.

ocschwar		2012-11-21 09:33:04 AM

When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.

Marine1		2012-11-21 09:41:42 AM

TheOther: Marine1: Any peace deal would need to require that Hamas disarm. The UN needs to step in to make sure that this remains true. They're now a political party. There's no reason for them to have a private army.

Private army? Aren't they the de facto government of Gaza?

I doubt that the majority of the Gaza populace supports these rocket launches, and even if they are a "de facto" government, there's still no reason for them to be conducting military operations with a militia. That'd be like the Democrats or Republicans raising a militia and then replacing the US military with it whenever they get the Presidency and majority in Congress.

seadoo2006		2012-11-21 09:42:31 AM

ocschwar: When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine,

That is not what happened here.

It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.

TheOther		2012-11-21 09:44:21 AM

OnlyM3: * Potsdam Conference made them believe the U.S. was a paper tiger unwilling to keep fighting and forced the 2 nuclear drops.

That is an amazing conclusion to draw from Potsdam. What is the reasoning?

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