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(Jerusalem Post) NewsFlash Bus explodes in central Tel Aviv, at least 10 injured   (jpost.com) divider line 405
    More: NewsFlash, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan  
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3737 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Nov 2012 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-11-21 07:53:08 AM

Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.


I saw the same from Rasmussen.

Landslide imminent.
 
2012-11-21 07:53:45 AM

Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.


Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.
 
2012-11-21 07:54:19 AM

cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians


Yea they just target the spot on top of apartment buildings where a terrorist was 20 minutes ago
 
2012-11-21 07:56:50 AM

Tatsuma: Pretty much the only option left. Either we go in and deal with Hamas once and for all, or well we're just going o be doing that again in a few years


But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all? It isn't like they have a problem hiding amongst civilian populations. Unless every able-bodied man in Gaza is captured or killed, you won't get them all. Plus what of those who inevitably sneak out into Egypt? And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.
 
2012-11-21 07:57:01 AM
War is coming.
 
2012-11-21 07:58:07 AM

metalliqaz: War is here.


FTFY.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:02 AM
Remember when you were young, and fighting with your older brother, and then your mom or dad stopped you. You both said "He started it!" and pointed at each other. And then your parent said "I don't care who started it, stop it!"
 
2012-11-21 08:00:29 AM

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Indeed. Terrorism cannot and should not be tolerated.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:54 AM

DarnoKonrad: S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.


True, project out a hundred years and Israel may well be a very different looking nation. I think it really depends on how many Palestinians are left. If the more belligerent types on either side of the conflict get full control then there may not be any Palestinians. The more violence thrown by Palestinians toward Israelis, the more likely Israel is going to put more hawkish people in charge to deal with it.

Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.
 
2012-11-21 08:00:59 AM
Waking up to news like this is a horrible way to wake up.
 
2012-11-21 08:01:53 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.


NPR reported this yesterday as well.
 
2012-11-21 08:02:44 AM

DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.

Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.



It appears to me you have some series biases here; you're really oversimplifying and you seem unwilling to distinguish Hamas from the situation in the occupied territories as a whole. The only way to marginalize Hamas is to politically enfranchise people. As long as they don't have political representation to exercise their power, the extremists will exercise power through violence. And they're not going to get political representation so long as ...


I won't deny bias because we all hve them. It's human nature and all that.

Of course I am oversimplifying this is Fark not a discertation on poli sci re: Israel/Palestine relations. There will always be nuances that I will never understand because I don't live there. Do you? (real question not a snark). Hamas was marginilized then they went all fark the police and killed off the local governing bodies and took over. Yes they were voted in to some positions but there was legitimate opposition with a pretty solid voting base until Hamas killed them off or kicked them out to WB. Enfranchising Palestinians (non-Hamas) right now will just get them killed. How do you propose to work around that one?

I am not rationalizing the status quo just challenging pie in the sky responses that have no chance of working in the real world. (hoping someone somehow will come up with something that might actually work). The situation is going to explode eventually so no not sustainable.
 
2012-11-21 08:03:55 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.


Do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men.
 
2012-11-21 08:06:00 AM

MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?


Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.


Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.
 
2012-11-21 08:06:21 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.


Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:10 AM

MmmmBacon: And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.


But as it stands now regarding those who would do that, they will join Hamas when they grow up either way. Might as well get 20 years of solid calm for both sides and give peace an actual chance.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:16 AM

paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.


My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.
 
2012-11-21 08:08:41 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Dear Israel,

Violence begats violence. Violence does not stop violence.

Sincerely,
Someone who dearly wants leaders to tell you 'You're on your own'


Over there, nonviolence doesn't stop violence either. It doesn't matter if they attack first, if they attack in response, or not attack at all. Hamas isn't going to stop the rocket and bomb attacks.
 
2012-11-21 08:11:49 AM

metalliqaz: War is coming.


It kind of looks looks like war is already there from what I can tell.

Apparently we all just cannot get along.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:08 AM

dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.


So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society? They obviously don't want them to have a state, that makes taking the land a messier prospect. And everyone knows goddamn well they aren't going to be welcomed in to Israel even if they laid down their guns and cut off their trigger fingers as penance, it would wreck the Jewish majority.

There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:09 AM

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


In this particular instance, I would tend to disagree - mostly because it is highlighting that things are escalating, not so much even the bombing itself.
 
2012-11-21 08:12:10 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.

My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.


You win, I've read that a number of times and end up being only able to think of Jar Jar Binks. That cannot be a good sign.
 
2012-11-21 08:14:34 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: But can a ground invasion really put Hamas down once and for all?

Yes. But it will require two things:

1. Re-entering Gaza
2. Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

Right now, almost 80,000 troops have been mobilized and are ready to go in. The last time we went into Gaza, we had 10,000 soldiers on the ground, and we stopped short of entering Gaza city.

Such a large force means that not only we will be entering Gaza city, but we will leave troop on the ground for a while.

Hamas has about more or less 5,000 active fighters. The problem is that they booby trap everything (schools, mosques, zoos) meaning that it takes a while to be able to go in and get either their equipment or to get those we want to arrest.

Last time, in 2008, the Hamas leadership was hiding out in a wing of the Gaza City hospital, and therefore the IDF did not go in, but this time its not going to work that way. Special forces and all that.


Basically a ceasefire might be Hamas's last chance to survive this. By firing rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and by resuming bombings in buses, they have gone too far.


I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible. This will be very messy, and unless Israel can win the hearts and minds of the civilian populous, it won't have much of a chance of complete success. Some success, sure. But the total dismantling of Hamas forever? I find that hard to believe, under the circumstances.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:00 AM

paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: paulseta: AverageAmericanGuy: Tatsuma: Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Haaretz is a minor publication mostly read outside of Israel. Probably not too credible.

Neither are you, but that doesn't stop you.

My credibility in question, people do not typically use what I write as evidence of anything a day or two after calling me incredible.

You win, I've read that a number of times and end up being only able to think of Jar Jar Binks. That cannot be a good sign.


Sorry. I forget sometimes we have international readers.

A few days ago, Tats claimed Haaretz was not indicative of any sort of zeitgeist within Israel because of its low circulation numbers (4%, if my memory serves me). Today he is using it as evidence of an overwhelming wave of anti-Hamas sentiment within Israel.

So is the paper credible or not? He wants to have it both ways.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:10 AM

Tatsuma: Re-occupying Gaza temporarily


This. Israel can hit major targets all day long, but there will still be minor outposts that will fire rockets into their country.

It's going to upset a lot of people, but invasion AND occupation seem in order.
 
2012-11-21 08:17:52 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society? They obviously don't want them to have a state, that makes taking the land a messier prospect. And everyone knows goddamn well they aren't going to be welcomed in to Israel even if they laid down their guns and cut off their trigger fingers as penance, it would wreck the Jewish majority.

There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.


I don't think that Israel is a bunch of genocidal maniacs. If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself. Israel would have to deal with them, they would be forced to behave as the situation wouldn't be a matter of fighting for survival on their part. I don't think Israelis would allow their government to go all Tienanmen-squarey on a thousand peaceful Palestinians.

The problem is the other actors in the region don't give a fark about the plight of the Palestinians and will continue to co-opt whatever happens to apply violence and keep the status quo.
 
2012-11-21 08:18:10 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: And even if Israel did manage to capture or kill every member of Hamas and their sympathizers, what of the children of Gaza? They will grow up knowing only hate for Israel, and many will join some anti-Israeli group when they are old enough to throw a stone, be it a reformed Hamas or under some other name.

But as it stands now regarding those who would do that, they will join Hamas when they grow up either way. Might as well get 20 years of solid calm for both sides and give peace an actual chance.


That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.
 
2012-11-21 08:20:21 AM

Happy Hours: Tatsuma: Re-occupying Gaza temporarily

This. Israel can hit major targets all day long, but there will still be minor outposts that will fire rockets into their country.

It's going to upset a lot of people, but invasion AND occupation seem in order.


I don't think Hamas has the manpower
 
2012-11-21 08:20:27 AM
Sort of off-topic, but everyone should watch the movie "Paradise Now." Interesting portrayal of the Israel-Palestine conflict, somewhat one-sided nonetheless.
 
2012-11-21 08:21:15 AM

cman: You are pretty shiatty at twisting words.


Is that what I'm doing? Because here I thought you literally just went into apologia-mode and claimed that it's OK that Israel disproportionately kill civilians because it's difficult to determine who is and isn't a combatant, and they know that, but they choose to proceed anyways.
 
2012-11-21 08:21:23 AM

Shakin_Haitian: Isn't it weird how the Palestinians with decades old weapons technology are just as accurate as Israel is with modern weapons technology?


You must have missed yesterday's thread about Hamas accidentally hitting one of their own buildings with a rocket.
 
2012-11-21 08:22:07 AM

MmmmBacon: I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible.


No, it will actually be possible for two reasons:

1 - We know very well who they are
2 - They can't hide anywhere outside of Gaza


Seeing as Gaza is small, it will be possible to do this, but this is a 3-9 months where you will have casualties in the four digits category (most of them fighters)
 
2012-11-21 08:24:54 AM

MmmmBacon: That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.


Yeah but Israel will do something that will drastically reduce the possibilities of that happening:

immediately retaking the Philadelphi corridor. Probably permanently at this point. I also hope they built a 200 feet deep moat and fill it with crocodiles. Try to have smuggling tunnels there, assholes.
 
2012-11-21 08:25:02 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society?


It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.
 
2012-11-21 08:25:16 AM

dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.


I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.
 
2012-11-21 08:27:03 AM
Both sides have so much blood on their hands, the right/wrong argument is really irrelevant at this point. The only thing that matters is who can win.

If Netanyahu decides to let the Israeli army off the chain, the arab population in that region will be reduced by very signficant numbers.
 
2012-11-21 08:27:49 AM

Happy Hours: It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.


If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

They are their own worst enemies.
 
2012-11-21 08:31:18 AM

Happy Hours: HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society?

It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.


It wouldn't happen at all, ever, for any reason. There is little in it for Israel, and they view that land as some kind of birthright.
 
2012-11-21 08:32:07 AM

Tatsuma: Happy Hours: It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.

If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

They are their own worst enemies.


Well, next to the people who herded them into ghettos and stole their land and destroyed their businesses, yes.
 
2012-11-21 08:32:24 AM

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: I agree, they have gone too far, but rooting out an enemy force that is not only hiding amongst the populous but is actively being aided by civilians is going to take years to do, if it is at all possible.

No, it will actually be possible for two reasons:

1 - We know very well who they are
2 - They can't hide anywhere outside of Gaza


Seeing as Gaza is small, it will be possible to do this, but this is a 3-9 months where you will have casualties in the four digits category (most of them fighters)


I would be impressed to see that happen.

Tatsuma: MmmmBacon: That is a good point, but neither solution seems very acceptable for dissolving Hamas. Also consider the outside forces, namely Iran and Syria, and efforts they will take to aid Hamas in any way possible during this occupation.

Yeah but Israel will do something that will drastically reduce the possibilities of that happening:

immediately retaking the Philadelphi corridor. Probably permanently at this point. I also hope they built a 200 feet deep moat and fill it with crocodiles. Try to have smuggling tunnels there, assholes.


That would make tunnels less-than-viable.
 
2012-11-21 08:34:29 AM

MmmmBacon: Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.


There's almost nothing correct about your entire description.

Back in 2006, Israel and the US pressured the PNA into holding new elections because they thought they could achieve a sort of "regime change" and get the (then US-friendly) Fatah a full sweep of the Palestinian parliament; instead, Hamas won a significant majority. Israel and the US refused to recognize the election (and has since refused to allow any further elections). Fatah was given shipments of arms from the US government to defeat the democratically elected Palestinian government, and started a Palestinian civil war, which ended up with the West Bank controlled by US-friendly (but perceived corrupt) Palestinian politicians, with Hamas holed up in Gaza.

Israel has proceeded to use the pretext of violent unrest to block shipments of food and medicine to Gaza, launch military raids into civilian centers, and assassinate elected leaders.


Now Hamas is making desperate attempts to fight back and you're saying "well, they started it!" That's crazy-talk.
 
2012-11-21 08:34:39 AM
Hamas isn't Hezbollah. It doesn't have the direct and overt Iranian backing, access to an arsenal of modern ATGMs and munitions or the advantageous mountainous terrain enjoyed by the latter group.
 
2012-11-21 08:35:18 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: If the Palestinians just sit down, Israel won't have to defend itself.

I can't really comprehend that people believe Israel takes no offensive action against Palestinians.


Today there's enough violence that anything they do can be attributed to defensive actions; even in cease fires the rockets don't stop, they just land in the desert. Not legitimate threats, but still.

How many times could Israel realistically respond militarily to a thousand-strong peaceful and unarmed march of Palestinians before the people of Israel say fark this shiat? The Palestinians are in a situation that they cannot win through violence. Israel can only win through violence as they have no reason to stop their policies regarding settlers, land and treatment in general of the Palestinians. Those policies lead to Palestinians committing themselves to violence, but they can't fight the IDF, so they blow up civilians. That, in turn, reinforces the Israeli policies. This is all so painfully obvious, yet neither chooses the actions required to stop and one reason is the outside influences are not interested in an end to this shiat.
 
2012-11-21 08:36:09 AM

MmmmBacon: I would be impressed to see that happen.


The mood on the ground here is basically 'let's take off the gloves'. This is what taking off the gloves will be like. Now, let's see if Bibi actually goes through with it.

MmmmBacon: That would make tunnels less-than-viable.


Indeed. Moats/Alligator for the Knesset 5773
 
2012-11-21 08:36:27 AM

DataShade: cman: They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Aren't all Israeli citizens required to serve at least one year in the IDF? Aren't all Israelis thus soldiers, former soldiers, or future soldiers?

Are we just going to call anyone who isn't holding a live weapon *right now* a civilian?


Not everyone serves in the military. If you have a religious objection to doing so, or a health reason you can be assigned to work for the government in a non-military role. Not to state the obvious, but kids can't serve in the military and therefore should be classified as 'civilians.'
 
2012-11-21 08:38:11 AM

MmmmBacon: I didn't say the rape gangs were political policy. They are the result of the failing state South Africa is degenerating into. Not exactly a successful solution to Apartheid, is it? In fact SA is pretty much in chaos outside of Johannesburg. That was my point.


As a result of political policy or that little global economic meltdown that's also led to, say, near civil-war conditions in Greece and Spain?


And as for Ireland, yes, there are still factions of the IRA that would love to blow the hell out of some Brits in Northern Ireland. Just because they haven't in a few years doesn't mean they won't become more organized and start activities again. You know, like there are lulls in bus bombings in Israel from time to time?

Just saying.


So you believe in thoughtcrime. OK.
 
2012-11-21 08:38:55 AM

Uncle Tractor: meep3d: What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

What I post in all these threads these days:

From the israeli side:
1: Officially declare Gaza and the WB part of Israel.
2: Give everybody who lives there (arab and jew) full rights as israeli citizens.

From the palestinian side:
1: Give up the notion of a palestinian state. Not gonna happen.
2: As de facto israeli citizens, demand the right to vote and run for office in israeli elections.

No, it won't immediately become a land of milk and honey, but it's pretty much inevitable at this point. The two-state solution is dead and the status quo won't last much longer.


That won't happen, because then the Arabs in the country will outnumber the Jews, and Israel will no longer be a "Jewish state." Of course, there's a name for when an ethnic minority rules over an ethnic majority.
 
2012-11-21 08:39:24 AM
Last night as Anderson Cooper was standing in the middle of Gaza reporting on this, he interviewed a gent from Israel (who is a fellow at a US University) and the gent implied that the US needed to do more -- which I find funny.

For YEARS, folks have been complaining about the US trying to police the world. We finally have a President that takes a step back and is having the rest of the world try and foster a "calm" and folks are clamoring that the US isn't doing enough. We honestly cannot win. The rest of the world needs to own things and tell their neighbors hey stupid, "NIMBY" if they don't like what's going on. The US has enough to deal with without playing parent to two sides who don't want to behave like adults.

I am sorry for the innocent civilians on both sides who are just trying to live their lives, go to their jobs, school and be "normal" whilst all this drama is unfolding. I can't begin to pretend to understand all the intricacies of life in Israel, Palestine / Gaza, but I wish that the cowards that are fostering violence would quit hiding behind innocents and confront one another directly at a negotiating table instead of with bombs / rockets / guns / guns - it solves nothing and only causes loss of life.

To Tatsuma and anyone else living in the region, my thoughts and support go to you through this challenging time. Stay safe and I hope for a resolution that doesn't result in a lot of death and war.
 
2012-11-21 08:40:15 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: It doesn't have the direct and overt Iranian backing


Well actually Iran today just declared proudly that they were providing Hamas with military and financial aid.

Certainly not to the extent they do with Hizbullah though


Hamas did have a drone program going on before Israel destroyed it, and they have fired an anti-aircraft missile recently
 
2012-11-21 08:41:28 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
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