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(Jerusalem Post) NewsFlash Bus explodes in central Tel Aviv, at least 10 injured   (jpost.com) divider line 405
    More: NewsFlash, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan  
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3741 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Nov 2012 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-11-21 06:57:45 AM  

cman: Uncle Tractor: meep3d: Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.

Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there anywhere.


FTFY
 
2012-11-21 06:58:07 AM  
Israel has a right to defend itself so it is OK to bomb Gaza.
The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves so it is OK to bomb Israel.

These people shooting each other are just exercising their rights.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:27 AM  
So, Hamas is using the tactics the Israelis used against Great Britain. Whatevs, they're way over there. Can't see that shiat from my house.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:30 AM  

meep3d: DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.




The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:46 AM  

cman: Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there.


I want today's Israel gone too. Gone like apartheid SA is gone. No, this doesn't mean kicking the jews out.
 
2012-11-21 06:58:58 AM  

meep3d: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?




Lemme see your teeth, drinking that much Kool-aid has to be giving you some nasty cavities.


Here are some links

Documents indicate Israel has limited food for Gaza to minimum survival levels since 2007

Holocaust survivor says Israeli government's acts makes Palestinians "victims of ethnic cleansing and apartheid."

Jan 2012 law creates what Israeli citizens describe as "concentration camps" for non-Jewish asylum seekers.

Weeks before the "rocket attacks" from Gaza to Israel, Israeli soldiers kill 13-year-old boy playing soccer and Israeli soldiers shoot "mentally deranged" unarmed man who got too close to the DMZ "buffer zone" around Gaza, then refused requests by emergency personnel who attempted to provide medical assistance.



But you go ahead and cling to your technicality whereby Gaza isn't "occupied" because the troops don't stay for more than 24 hours at a time, even tho' no one is allowed to leave and citizens are killed every time the troops come in.
 
2012-11-21 07:01:48 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: From another thread supporting isreal without being racist


17. Learn how to spell "Israel."

I sympathize with the Arab cause, I feel for the put-upon Jews. And I keep singing the middle class liberal, well-intentioned blues.
 
2012-11-21 07:02:19 AM  

DarnoKonrad:
The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.


It's always been my opinion that a two state solution is the only workable outcome (three if you count turning Jerusalem into an autonomous city state). I honestly don't see either side ever accepting a one state solution, not for a generation or so at least anyway.
 
2012-11-21 07:04:30 AM  

meep3d: DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.


and that has been the problem. there is currently NO solution which is agreeable to both side.
the unilateral WALL stopped the suicide attacks. (certainly all of the massive ones)
 
2012-11-21 07:05:05 AM  
I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.
 
2012-11-21 07:06:06 AM  

meep3d: DarnoKonrad:
The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.

It's always been my opinion that a two state solution is the only workable outcome (three if you count turning Jerusalem into an autonomous city state). I honestly don't see either side ever accepting a one state solution, not for a generation or so at least anyway.



Well it took Ireland almost 100 years to put down their weapons.  So yea, at least another generation.
 
2012-11-21 07:06:17 AM  
This thread is all so stupid. The bombing in question wasn't even claimed by Hamas - they're not taking responsibility, they're just saying....
 
2012-11-21 07:07:29 AM  
The only way to win this war is to make it so costly that the arabs decide to cease and desist on their own. America has grown too decidedly feminine, fat and comfortable to possess the mental fortitude necessary to accomplish this. Israel sees this, and knows that it is pretty much on their own. In fact, it sees that Obama is now going to underwrite the purchase of over $100 million in new weapons for Hamas. Is it any wonder that Israel doesn't want a cease fire? A cease fire is only a chance for Hamas to purchase and position new weaponry at their leisure.
 
2012-11-21 07:08:02 AM  

MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.




Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.
 
2012-11-21 07:08:51 AM  

MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.


Yeah, how about "no"
 
2012-11-21 07:11:38 AM  
Weeeeeeee


#Israel Dep Speaker Danny Danon: "It is time to declare war...the time for restraint is over." #Gaza
- Lauren E. Bohn (@LaurenBohn) November 21, 2012

 
2012-11-21 07:12:09 AM  

DataShade: MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.



Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.


The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.
 
2012-11-21 07:12:11 AM  

DataShade: MmmmBacon: I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.



Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.


Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.
 
2012-11-21 07:13:25 AM  

cman: Summoner101: Bathia_Mapes: cman: -1 for news flash abuse

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.


The last time was 2006.
 
2012-11-21 07:18:42 AM  

yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.




This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.
 
2012-11-21 07:19:01 AM  
Just let them build casinos already!
 
2012-11-21 07:21:48 AM  

namatad: Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.
But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.
If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!
2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.
So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."
Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.


Israel is a country that exits and will continue to exist no matter how hard some people in the ME want to wish it away. The people of Israel are well entitled to continue to live in Israel. This is fact, both in a humanitarian sense and in compliance with international customs and law.

The problem is that the nation of Israel, as it exists today, is young. Israel has put up with implicit and explicit threats to her very existence since 1948. Part of the difficulty stems from the purge of the Palestinians that didn't want to deal with them--some of them are still alive. Their kids are alive. Israel's policies supporting their settler movement aren't helping heal any old wounds. Gaza has been taken over by Hamas, a group whose stated their goals of Israel's destruction and is perfectly OK with using terrorism to accomplish, well, something. It certainly won't be the destruction of Israel.

When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

It's a shame; the people of Israel don't deserve to live a life of exploding buses and evacuating areas because of shiatty rocket attacks at random intervals-you shouldn't have to face the possibility of someone blowing you up on the way to school no matter where you live. The people in the West Bank shouldn't be harassed by settlers and just because you're born in that area, you cannot travel, you cannot leave--you're effectively imprisoned through poverty and no nation, no passport, no wealth and no options. Houses shouldn't be bulldozed because the occupational authority just doesn't want you around and given the population density of the Gaza Strip, there's no way innocent people aren't going to pay for the recalcitrance of their governing body. A two-year-old doesn't know who's running shiat and has no way of shaming the bad actors into putting their rocket launchers elsewhere.

It took us almost two hundred years to get to where we are with the native nations. I hope Israel and the Palestinians don't take that long for their own sakes.
 
2012-11-21 07:23:40 AM  

cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.


At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.
 
2012-11-21 07:25:32 AM  

yousaywut: The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.


No two situations are ever the same, that's a meaningless attempt at distinction. You go on believing that your feeble exceptionalism justifies genocide.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:10 AM  

cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

 

Some man breaks into your house, you open up on him with a machine gun, the bullets shred him to paste, overpenetrate, and kill people sleeping in the house across the street, you're going to be charged for manslaughter.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:32 AM  

dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.


The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:36 AM  

MmmmBacon: Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.


"Want them off their island," not *blowing up buses to get them off their island." I'm going to need a citation on the rape gang reference because I wasn't aware of any such act as a form of political policy.
 
2012-11-21 07:26:51 AM  
Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.
 
2012-11-21 07:27:39 AM  

DataShade: cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.

At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.


You are pretty shiatty at twisting words.
 
2012-11-21 07:28:44 AM  
Hamas: Not us, but rather Fatah under Abbas responsible for suicide bombing (channel 2)
 
2012-11-21 07:30:48 AM  
Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.
 
2012-11-21 07:33:37 AM  

DataShade: cman: Well, if you could point out where the Hamas militant bases that are outside civilian zones I am sure Israel would use your intel.

At least you admit that Israel is knowingly attacking civilians.


Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.
 
2012-11-21 07:37:34 AM  

DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.


Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.
 
2012-11-21 07:40:03 AM  

DarnoKonrad: dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.


There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.
 
2012-11-21 07:41:04 AM  

deffuse: Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.


Propaganda for domestic consumption. If Iran were truly interested in "aiding" their erstwhile allies in Gaza they would simply instruct their northern proxy--Hezbollah--to unleash it's substantially more capable arsenal against Israel.
 
2012-11-21 07:41:34 AM  

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


No they won't. You say this every time, then the IDF walks in to a meat grinder, achieves some nebulous goal that accomplishes nothing, and you declare victory until it happens again in a few months.
 
2012-11-21 07:43:42 AM  

DataShade: MmmmBacon: Ireland still has people who want the Brits off their island, South Africa isn't doing so hot under current rule (unless you like rape gangs), but you are right about desegregation. One out of three isn't bad, though.

"Want them off their island," not *blowing up buses to get them off their island." I'm going to need a citation on the rape gang reference because I wasn't aware of any such act as a form of political policy.


I didn't say the rape gangs were political policy. They are the result of the failing state South Africa is degenerating into. Not exactly a successful solution to Apartheid, is it? In fact SA is pretty much in chaos outside of Johannesburg. That was my point.

And as for Ireland, yes, there are still factions of the IRA that would love to blow the hell out of some Brits in Northern Ireland. Just because they haven't in a few years doesn't mean they won't become more organized and start activities again. You know, like there are lulls in bus bombings in Israel from time to time?

Just saying.
 
2012-11-21 07:43:58 AM  
If only there were some kind of final solution to it all.
 
2012-11-21 07:44:20 AM  
Israel should start dropping big 2,000 pound bombs on Gaza. Continue until nothing is left. Putting rabid animals down is a good thing.
 
2012-11-21 07:44:53 AM  

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: deffuse: Oh and look who wades on in:

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.

Propaganda for domestic consumption. If Iran were truly interested in "aiding" their erstwhile allies in Gaza they would simply instruct their northern proxy--Hezbollah--to unleash it's substantially more capable arsenal against Israel.


Iran only gives a shiat about the Palestinians so long as they can use them to further their own ends of keeping their people in line hating on Israel. They're not any different than any other regional Israel-hating countries. Nobody around there gives a legitimate shiat about them, but they're really handy to use to keep their own crazies in line.
 
2012-11-21 07:45:48 AM  

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Whenever anyway says "the mood in" anyplace is whatever I always question it. I somehow doubt that's the mood of everyone, but I can see how it would be your mood and it's actually my mood too even though I sit here comfortably halfway around the world with no fear of rockets landing anywhere near my home.

This shiat has been going on my whole life. It's actually been going on longer than my life, but there has never been a time in my life when there was not violence in the Middle East and very often it happens in Israel. Whether it's suicide bombers or Hamas or Hezbollah lobbing rockets into Israel it's been a constant theme. Many efforts for peace have been made and this latest round of violence proves the point that it's not working. I don't want US troops involved, but I do think Israel should invade Gaza and put an end to this shiat once and for all. That may be an unrealistic idea or it may not be. The only thing I'm sure of is that the status quo isn't working out too well,
 
2012-11-21 07:46:26 AM  

dr_blasto: DarnoKonrad: dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.

There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.



S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.
 
2012-11-21 07:46:29 AM  
Now, what brought this on?
 
2012-11-21 07:47:46 AM  

Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.


Not unless Israel plans a genocidal clearance of Gaza. At the end of the day, making more martyrs has never solved anything, ever.
 
2012-11-21 07:49:08 AM  
"News flash"? Has fark not go an "Inevitable" tag?
 
2012-11-21 07:49:09 AM  

Shatner's Bassoon: Tatsuma: Also, right now the mood in Israel is already 'Enough of this shiat, go in and deal with Hamas'. If they resume suicide bombings, well they will be farked.

Not unless Israel plans a genocidal clearance of Gaza. At the end of the day, making more martyrs has never solved anything, ever.


At the end of the day you get nothing for nothing.
 
2012-11-21 07:49:16 AM  

Thunderpipes: Israel should start dropping big 2,000 pound bombs on Gaza. Continue until nothing is left. Putting rabid animals down is a good thing.


No, it isn't a good thing. It's horrible. Those are people living in Gaza, you know? People with children and parents, people just trying to live their lives. Unfortunately, some of those people are zealots and don't mind endangering their neighbors in the pursuit of their cause.

You are right, carpet-bombing Gaza would in fact work to stop the rockets from coming from there. But no sane human would ever do that. Ever.
 
2012-11-21 07:50:06 AM  

DataShade: yousaywut: The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.

//Nevermind stated intentions or actual reality they're not important.

No two situations are ever the same, that's a meaningless attempt at distinction. You go on believing that your feeble exceptionalism justifies genocide.


Justifies? Nope I don't believe it justifies genocide. What may be made necessary is an entirely different story. There will come a point when these two groups are going to go all out and either one side will completely destroy the other (genocide) or they will have finally had enough death and reach some kind of peace. But I am willing to bet that the death toll from one side or the other is going to be over 20% before the second option ever gets seriously considered. This does not justify anything. It is just my realistic look at the area that hasn't known true peace in forever and almost everyone has a family member hurt or killed by the violence. and pretty much everyone knows someone in the same situation.

/People can become desensitized to anything including death and violence which would make the necessary death toll higher than in other parts of the world for the same willingness to find a way to peace.
 
2012-11-21 07:50:13 AM  

Happy Hours: Whenever anyway says "the mood in" anyplace is whatever I always question it. I somehow doubt that's the mood of everyone, but I can see how it would be your mood and it's actually my mood too even though I sit here comfortably halfway around the world with no fear of rockets landing anywhere near my home.


Haaretz published a poll that said 84% of Israelis want the government to take care of Hamas.

Happy Hours: but I do think Israel should invade Gaza and put an end to this shiat once and for all. That may be an unrealistic idea or it may not be. The only thing I'm sure of is that the status quo isn't working out too well,


Pretty much the only option left. Either we go in and deal with Hamas once and for all, or well we're just going o be doing that again in a few years
 
2012-11-21 07:52:52 AM  

yousaywut: DarnoKonrad: yousaywut: Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The situations are not quite the same. But you go on believing that everyone can just get along if they could only be made to see that they are the same on the inside.



This is an idiotic response. As if N. Ireland and S. Africa was some touchy-feely cake walk. In many regards the situations were worse.

Worse? No just different. The situations are not the same. Yes the Irish had 2 sides dead set against each other But they didn't want every single one of the other side dead even the IRA wasn't trying to kill every single person from the oppswoing faction. SA was disgusting but also not the same because even at their worst neither side wanted everyone from the other side dead. Are you beginning to see the difference yet? Hamas wants every jew in the world dead, gone, no more forever. If you honestly believe that they would stop just by being invited into Israel as full and complete citizens you are naive and dangerous.

It is never idiotic to believe someone when they say they want you and your family and everyone that looks like you dead. It is as a matter of fact quite advisable that you believe that shiat because any other response invites death.

//Just because my belief system does not include the complete total and unreasonable hate that the current Hamas indoctrination does doesn't mean that I cannot believe that such a belief system could exist.




It appears to me you have some series biases here; you're really oversimplifying and you seem unwilling to distinguish Hamas from the situation in the occupied territories as a whole. The only way to marginalize Hamas is to politically enfranchise people. As long as they don't have political representation to exercise their power, the extremists will exercise power through violence. And they're not going to get political representation so long as the occupied territories are fiats of Israel.

Beyond that I can't see why you're rationalizing the status quo. Do you honestly think this situation is sustainable like this?
 
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