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(BusinessWeek)   France surrenders...its AAA credit rating. Vive le soicialisme   (businessweek.com) divider line 50
    More: Dumbass, European debt crisis, force of law, Moody, Mario Draghi, rigidity, credit rating, Vive  
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757 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Nov 2012 at 9:47 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-20 09:28:57 AM
Meh.

Thought this had happened years ago.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-20 09:32:24 AM
Yes, because of it's bailout of Greece, not because of it's own finances like the USA.
 
2012-11-20 09:49:49 AM
Yeah. Socialism bad. Corporate welfare good. Must be nice not to have to think too much about anything, subby.
 
2012-11-20 09:52:07 AM
Well, would you look at that: the Tea Party and the (real, avowed) socialists have something in common now.
 
2012-11-20 09:52:47 AM
Is this Obama's fault?
 
2012-11-20 09:53:08 AM
Vive le soicialisme

Too late to point out that the US lost theirs first?
 
2012-11-20 09:53:44 AM

sinanju: Vive le soicialisme

Too late to point out that the US lost theirs first?


Well duh, because Obama.
 
2012-11-20 09:55:48 AM
Take THAT, socialcommunmarxnazifascism!

i48.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-20 09:58:49 AM
Too many people

Too many things are automated

Too much money in the hands of 1% of the population

Time for a revolution or a world war. History repeating itself.
 
2012-11-20 09:59:21 AM
This means that Romain Grosjean is automagically President and François Hollande has to ride a unicycle from Normandy to Monaco.
 
2012-11-20 10:01:09 AM
Theirs lasted longer than ours. Vive le capitalisme.
 
2012-11-20 10:01:14 AM
Why is this in the Politics tab? It's a Business story, period.
 
2012-11-20 10:06:43 AM

Mr_Fabulous: Why is this in the Politics tab? It's a Business story, period.


soshulizm
 
2012-11-20 10:07:14 AM
So Moody's downgraded another country's credit as punishment for not electing a government they'd prefer.

In other circles, that's called extortion.
 
2012-11-20 10:09:45 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: So Moody's downgraded another country's credit as punishment for not electing a government they'd prefer.

In other circles, that's called extortion.


I like how these rating agencies committed bad faith ratings tantamount to fraud which contributed to the recession that is now resulting in these countries losing their good credit ratings by the same ratings agencies. Its some kind of weird full circle derptastic fraud auto-correction.
 
2012-11-20 10:11:21 AM
Almost half the time, government bond yields fall when a rating action suggests they should climb, or they increase even as a change signals a decline, according to data compiled by Bloomberg on 314 upgrades, downgrades and outlook changes going back as far as 38 years. The rates moved in the opposite direction 47 percent of the time for Moody's and for Standard & Poor's. The data measured yields after a month relative to U.S. Treasury debt, the global benchmark.

YoureDoingItWrong.jpg
 
2012-11-20 10:18:01 AM

Mr_Fabulous: Why is this in the Politics tab? It's a Business story, period.


The "socialism" word usually brings in the trolls, which drives more clicks and therefore more beer money for Drew.
 
2012-11-20 10:20:13 AM

Granny_Panties: Is this Obama's fault?


Yes. Everything up to, and including, original sin is Obama's fault. This is why you never give a socialist a time machine.
 
2012-11-20 10:20:16 AM
Standard & Poor's already downgraded France in January. You know what happened ? Interrest rates actually went down.
 
2012-11-20 10:21:17 AM

RsquaredW: YoureDoingItWrong.jpg


So what you're saying is that Moodys has been jobbed by the Invisible Hand?
 
2012-11-20 10:25:27 AM

HMS_Blinkin: Mr_Fabulous: Why is this in the Politics tab? It's a Business story, period.

The "socialism" word usually brings in the trolls, which drives more clicks and therefore more beer money for Drew.


As if we put that much thought into it
 
2012-11-20 10:35:17 AM
Free healthcare, 8 weeks vacation a year and 48 months maternity leave and yet they held on to their AAA rating 2 years longer than the US.
 
2012-11-20 10:35:47 AM
Yeah ... them losing their triple A rating a full year after the biggest, most dominant, most capitalist economy in the world is totally an indictment of their economy. Totally.
 
2012-11-20 10:36:59 AM
Yeah, blame socialism. Never, ever hold the banks accountable. Ever.
 
2012-11-20 10:40:57 AM

spiderpaz: Yeah ... them losing their triple A rating a full year after the biggest, most dominant, most capitalist economy in the world is totally an indictment of their economy. Totally.



It couldn't be because one system quickly shifted from it historic structure under 2 presidents and racked up massive and unprecedented debt, while the other incrementally stepped into its pile of debt, or anything.

The scale of debt we have will cripple us all.
 
2012-11-20 10:50:45 AM

RsquaredW: Almost half the time, government bond yields fall when a rating action suggests they should climb, or they increase even as a change signals a decline, according to data compiled by Bloomberg on 314 upgrades, downgrades and outlook changes going back as far as 38 years. The rates moved in the opposite direction 47 percent of the time for Moody's and for Standard & Poor's. The data measured yields after a month relative to U.S. Treasury debt, the global benchmark.

YoureDoingItWrong.jpg


Part of it is that government bonds are always considered very safe when compared to private investment even when the government doesn't have control of their monetary policy (though that and the whole global reserve currency thing helped the US a lot with ours). When you downgrade a country/state you end up signaling to investors that there is increased risk in investment and that leads a large portion of investors to move money to safer stuff. As a result they will go grab up government bonds (the safest investment historically) despite the downgrade causing the panic in the first place.

It's like the weird feedback loop we're going to end up in whenever the gold bubble pops. People invest in precious metals as another method of avoiding risk in rocky economic times. The bubble will pop, the economy will stagger, and people will go buy gold to protect their money from the downturn, pushing the price of gold back up.
 
2012-11-20 10:52:46 AM

Drew: HMS_Blinkin: Mr_Fabulous: Why is this in the Politics tab? It's a Business story, period.

The "socialism" word usually brings in the trolls, which drives more clicks and therefore more beer money for Drew.

As if we put that much thought into it


One thing is for certain.  Fark is the internets answer to "Hey y'all, watch this!"
 
2012-11-20 10:59:04 AM

mrshowrules: Free healthcare, 8 weeks vacation a year and 48 months maternity leave and yet they held on to their AAA rating 2 years longer than the US.


I can recall when France went on strike when their work week was going to be extended from 35 (I think) to 40 hours a week. I recall the newsdrones presenting it as worthy of mockery (look at those lazy French!). That was one of those moments when I realized that my country was not only full of shiatheads, but shiatheads that were proud of it.

/YER DAMB RIGHT I WORK 40 OWRS A WEEK, AND I'D BE WORKN 80 IF'N IT WEREN'T FOR DEM LIBTARDS!!!
 
2012-11-20 11:02:12 AM

rufus-t-firefly: Take THAT, socialcommunmarxnazifascism!

[i48.photobucket.com image 151x132]


That sums up rural Missouri in one picture.
 
2012-11-20 11:04:13 AM

vpb: Yes, because of it's bailout of Greece, not because of it's own finances like the USA.


You mean the bailout of an even greater socialist shiathole? You're really helping the argument against.
 
2012-11-20 11:05:16 AM
Well they had theirs longer than we did.

\too late to point this out?
 
2012-11-20 11:06:09 AM

hbk72777: vpb: Yes, because of it's bailout of Greece, not because of it's own finances like the USA.

You mean the bailout of an even greater socialist shiathole? You're really helping the argument against.


More like Republican shiathole. The Greeks hate taxes too.
 
2012-11-20 11:06:16 AM

born_yesterday: mrshowrules: Free healthcare, 8 weeks vacation a year and 48 months maternity leave and yet they held on to their AAA rating 2 years longer than the US.

I can recall when France went on strike when their work week was going to be extended from 35 (I think) to 40 hours a week. I recall the newsdrones presenting it as worthy of mockery (look at those lazy French!). That was one of those moments when I realized that my country was not only full of shiatheads, but shiatheads that were proud of it.

/YER DAMB RIGHT I WORK 40 OWRS A WEEK, AND I'D BE WORKN 80 IF'N IT WEREN'T FOR DEM LIBTARDS!!!


Like men thinking a guy teaching a room full woman yoga is pretty gay. I'm sure he's feelings are hurt when he's banging all their wives.
 
2012-11-20 11:12:49 AM
assets.gearlive.com

Soicialism...nyuck, nyuck, nyuck...
 
2012-11-20 11:26:59 AM

Grungehamster: Part of it is that government bonds are always considered very safe when compared to private investment even when the government doesn't have control of their monetary policy (though that and the whole global reserve currency thing helped the US a lot with ours). When you downgrade a country/state you end up signaling to investors that there is increased risk in investment and that leads a large portion of investors to move money to safer stuff. As a result they will go grab up government bonds (the safest investment historically) despite the downgrade causing the panic in the first place.


That only works with US Bonds though, due to our status as the reserve currency of the world. If you're rating a bond and then measure it compared to Treasuries, and you signal a downgrade. you would expect flight to the safer instrument (T-notes) and an increase in relative yield (ceteris paribus, yadda yadda). Instead, 47% of the time, the bond drops (signaling an increase in demand or decrease in supply, most likely the former since we don't usually see sharp corresponding drops in debt loads).
 
2012-11-20 11:27:08 AM

mrshowrules: Free healthcare, 8 weeks vacation a year and 48 months maternity leave and yet they held on to their AAA rating 2 years longer than the US.


And that includes vajayjay rejuvenation classes...
 
2012-11-20 11:32:30 AM
Credits Matt from The Telegraph.
i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2012-11-20 11:46:04 AM
And yet, the French are doing reasonably great.
 
2012-11-20 11:55:27 AM
FTFA: France was also cut one level to AA+ from AAA on Jan. 13 by Standard & Poor's. Since then, French government bonds gained 9.4 percent as of Nov. 16, compared with 3.5 percent for Germany debt, and 2.6 percent for that of the U.S., according to Bank of America Merrill Lynch index data.

Buffeted by the European Central Bank's offer to help finance struggling governments under certain conditions, Hollande has so far received support from his investors even after the S&P downgrade.

French borrowing costs have tumbled since he took office, with the yield on the nation's benchmark 10-year debt dropping to a record-low of 2 percent on Aug. 3 and shorter-term notes selling at negative yields for the first time in July. French 10-year bonds yielded 2.08 percent at 9:30 a.m. in Paris.
 
2012-11-20 02:26:08 PM

King Something: This means that Romain Grosjean is automagically President and François Hollande has to ride a unicycle from Normandy to Monaco.


Grosjean would crash the entire economy on the first corner.
 
2012-11-20 02:46:06 PM

Granny_Panties: Too many people

Too many things are automated

Too much money in the hands of 1% of the population

Time for a revolution or a world war. History repeating itself.


Two things that capitalism can't handle: automation, and infinite supply (i.e. anything that can be digitized). We need to develop a new economic model that deals with these issues.
 
2012-11-20 03:02:33 PM
Wow... now they are just like the U.S.
 
2012-11-20 08:34:41 PM

fickenchucker: spiderpaz: Yeah ... them losing their triple A rating a full year after the biggest, most dominant, most capitalist economy in the world is totally an indictment of their economy. Totally.


It couldn't be because one system quickly shifted from it historic structure under 2 presidents and racked up massive and unprecedented debt, while the other incrementally stepped into its pile of debt, or anything.

The scale of debt we have will cripple us all.


No doubt. That's part of the price you pay for expensive wars and expensive 'temporary' tax cuts.
 
2012-11-20 08:43:35 PM

hbk72777: vpb: Yes, because of it's bailout of Greece, not because of it's own finances like the USA.

You mean the bailout of an even greater socialist shiathole? You're really helping the argument against.


If you're going to point out socialist failures maybe you should look at the successes as well.

Norway has lower unemployment than the US, higher incomes, higher per capita GDP, a budget surplus and only 1 mass shooting in the history of the country. It also has much higher taxes which are used to fund the very comprehensive social welfare system. If you get cancer in Norway you won't have to sell your house to afford treatment.

Norway is socialism done right. I'm not advocating it for the US but I do think the US should have proper universal health care and a welfare system that is designed to heal the chronically poor so that they no longer need welfare.
 
2012-11-20 08:46:51 PM

CygnusDarius: And yet, the French are doing reasonably great.


Very high unemployment. It's over 10% now and was still relatively high before the GFC.
 
2012-11-20 09:04:33 PM
Wow - Obama lost to France. That's just sad.
 
2012-11-21 04:04:37 AM

kg2095: Norway has lower unemployment than the US, higher incomes, higher per capita GDP, a budget surplus and only 1 mass shooting in the history of the country. It also has much higher taxes which are used to fund the very comprehensive social welfare system. If you get cancer in Norway you won't have to sell your house to afford treatment.


Norway also has a nationalized oil company, whose fortunes helps pays their massive social programs, so they should be treated as outliers, really. I mean, that's socialism with a cheat code, right here.
 
2012-11-21 11:14:03 AM

padraig: kg2095: Norway has lower unemployment than the US, higher incomes, higher per capita GDP, a budget surplus and only 1 mass shooting in the history of the country. It also has much higher taxes which are used to fund the very comprehensive social welfare system. If you get cancer in Norway you won't have to sell your house to afford treatment.

Norway also has a nationalized oil company, whose fortunes helps pays their massive social programs, so they should be treated as outliers, really. I mean, that's socialism with a cheat code, right here.




That's the biggest issues I came here to say.

And we cannot underestimate the ease of governing a significantly smaller country with a tiny population that has a tremendously-more homogeneous culture than the U.S.

They're have the area of Montana, have 5,000,000 residents (the population of Wisconsin) and are 86% white Norwegian.
 
2012-11-23 01:41:52 AM

padraig: kg2095: Norway has lower unemployment than the US, higher incomes, higher per capita GDP, a budget surplus and only 1 mass shooting in the history of the country. It also has much higher taxes which are used to fund the very comprehensive social welfare system. If you get cancer in Norway you won't have to sell your house to afford treatment.

Norway also has a nationalized oil company, whose fortunes helps pays their massive social programs, so they should be treated as outliers, really. I mean, that's socialism with a cheat code, right here.


Good come back. I was wondering how long it would be before someone discovered my dishonesty. There are other good examples that don't have oil riches, like Sweden and Luxembourg. France and Britain are not prime examples as both have horrible economic conditions.

Doesn't the US also have a massive amount of natural resources including oil and gas? But that's not being mined by a nationalized oil company because the US does not have such a system.

And that's my point - two different systems with two different outcomes. And the system that is regularly demonized and deliberately confused with communism for ideological reasons is providing its citizens with a superior standard of living.

There is no real reason that a wealthy country like the US cannot have a comprehensive welfare system. It's not incompatible with capitalism or democracy. It just requires that people pay a realistic amount of tax. A bit more than people pay today but not more than they were paying in the 1970s when the US last had the world's highest standard of living. And if rules about eligibility are sensibly administered the number of people sponging off the system should be minimal.
 
2012-11-23 01:48:52 AM

fickenchucker: padraig: kg2095: Norway has lower unemployment than the US, higher incomes, higher per capita GDP, a budget surplus and only 1 mass shooting in the history of the country. It also has much higher taxes which are used to fund the very comprehensive social welfare system. If you get cancer in Norway you won't have to sell your house to afford treatment.

Norway also has a nationalized oil company, whose fortunes helps pays their massive social programs, so they should be treated as outliers, really. I mean, that's socialism with a cheat code, right here.



That's the biggest issues I came here to say.

And we cannot underestimate the ease of governing a significantly smaller country with a tiny population that has a tremendously-more homogeneous culture than the U.S.

They're have the area of Montana, have 5,000,000 residents (the population of Wisconsin) and are 86% white Norwegian.


A large population should make it easier to do not harder. And what does a homogenous population have to do with anything?

How about another example with a similarly multicultural society to the US.

Australia has a comprehensive welfare system including full universal healthcare. And a small budget surplus. And unemployment of around 5.?%, a median salary of $72,000 p.a. and economic growth over 3%. The minimum wage is over $16 per hour and AU $1 = US $1.04.

This has not always been the case. The US had the better economy until the conservatives started farking things up in the 1980s.
 
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