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(Christian Science Monitor)   As the violence in their country escalates, ordinary Israelis ponder the question famously posed by Leo Tolstoy: "War. What is it good for?"   (csmonitor.com) divider line 215
    More: Interesting, Israelis, Iron Dome, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, ground attacks, Ashdod, violence  
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2714 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Nov 2012 at 10:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-19 12:09:58 PM

I_C_Weener: I need to clear up my 8,000 rockets in 4 years number.  Per Wikipedia, it is more like 8,600 since 2001.  Each year, the rockets get more sophisticated and longer range too.



Though if you count them up by year, it is 4,514 rocket attacks since 2007.  And about equal mortar attacks.
 
2012-11-19 12:10:52 PM

Uncle Tractor: and the palestinians are almost always reacting to the israelis.



Since 2001, over 8000 rocket attacks.   About the same in mortar attacks.  Reacting to Israel?  Really? 
 
2012-11-19 12:11:06 PM
Tolstoy's mistress had a good point.
 
2012-11-19 12:11:54 PM

PandaPorn: I think there's far too much emotional response instead of rational (e.g. they shot first, they deserve it, reap what you sow, etc.). In the end it is a simple calculation: whatever causes the least casualties is the most desirable outcome.



In this case, (and you have a nice day), I don't think Israel doing nothing will slow or stop the rocket attacks.
 
2012-11-19 12:13:41 PM

I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.

No, I'm saying that not retaliating causes less casualties.


So, is there any point in time when it is okay for the main ruling entity (Say Israel) to come in and say you can't keep shooting rockets at civilians?  Put it in the perspective of the US.  Say some people in Indiana were lobbing rockets across the border into Ohio.  Say, 8,000 over the last 4 years.  Does the U.S. government have the authority to come in and do something about it?  What if it were, say Puerto Rico doing that to Miami (to give it a minor international flare)? 
 
I don't think Israel is innocent here, but Israel is almost always reacting to the Palestinians, not jsut up and deciding "Hey, on November 17th of this year, lets bomb the crap out of the Gaza strip."  They didn't do it for the prior 4 years that they were being fired on.



Allow me to help make your comparison a little more relevant. Lets say that Ohio went into Indiana and took Fort Wayne and most of Indianapolis and claimed them as part of Ohio. Then, they treated the people from Indiana who were in those areas like second class citizens. The people of Fort Wayne and those in the other Indiana/Ohio territories, in stead of accepting the usurping of their land, fights back with their inferior weapons. In "retaliation" the Ohio government authorizes air strikes that kill innocent civilians and they bulldoze houses in Fort Wayne, Indiana and rebuild them for Ohio residents. Who is to blame for the conflict?
 
2012-11-19 12:15:32 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.

No, I'm saying that not retaliating causes less casualties.


So, is there any point in time when it is okay for the main ruling entity (Say Israel) to come in and say you can't keep shooting rockets at civilians?  Put it in the perspective of the US.  Say some people in Indiana were lobbing rockets across the border into Ohio.  Say, 8,000 over the last 4 years.  Does the U.S. government have the authority to come in and do something about it?  What if it were, say Puerto Rico doing that to Miami (to give it a minor international flare)? 
 
I don't think Israel is innocent here, but Israel is almost always reacting to the Palestinians, not jsut up and deciding "Hey, on November 17th of this year, lets bomb the crap out of the Gaza strip."  They didn't do it for the prior 4 years that they were being fired on.


Allow me to help make your comparison a little more relevant. Lets say that Ohio went into Indiana and took Fort Wayne and most of Indianapolis and claimed them as part of Ohio. Then, they treated the people from Indiana who were in those areas like second class citizens. The people of Fort Wayne and those in the other Indiana/Ohio territories, in stead of accepting the usurping of their land, fights back with their inferior weapons. In "retaliation" the Ohio government authorizes air strikes that kill innocent civilians and they bulldoze houses in Fort Wayne, Indiana and rebuild them for Ohio residents. Who is to blame for the conflict?



If you can't learn in 60+ years that Israel is and will continue to be a country, then, you can't be taught.  And yes, those lands were seized.  While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Canada back to France, and virtually every other country in the world that was conquered at one point in time or another. 
 
2012-11-19 12:16:34 PM

Dr Dreidel: That's precisely what I mean by posting being a waste. Thanks for proving my point.


Your posts are a waste because you a liar. You are a liar who repeats the words of liars; you are a grocery clerk delivering bags of lies.

Israel isn't retaliating against sites where rockets are launched. Israel is destroying government offices, destroying the homes of government officials, and shooting guided missiles at the cell phones of government officials.

Even if these attacks are retaliation for rockets, these attacks are not being directed at the rockets, or the people who fired the rockets, or even in many cases the people who are involved with the rockets. Instead, many of the Israeli attacks are directed at the families of government officials in Gaza. The attacks are personal.

And your crap about Iron Dome is worse than silly. The rockets the Palestinians fire at Israel are mostly noneffective because they're crappy unguided tubes welded together out of parts you can buy in an American convenience store. The rockets are impossible to aim, and carry tiny payloads. Some theater defense system that has just started initial field testing a few days ago isn't the reason those rockets haven't hit very much for the last thirty years, and frankly I'm incredulous that even you would believe such pap.
 
2012-11-19 12:21:02 PM

I_C_Weener: While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Canada back to France, and virtually every other country in the world that was conquered at one point in time or another.


'Within living memory' is a little different than 2+ centuries ago...unless you are Israel, in which case, 2000 years doesn't invalidate your claim to anything west of the Jordan River.
 
2012-11-19 12:23:21 PM
Meh, it's good for arms sales. You have to look at the positive.
 
2012-11-19 12:23:29 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: The facts are.

1. Hamas fires unguided rockets at Israel, not really caring if they blow up innocent civilians.
2. Israel uses high tech guided munitions to try to stop the rocket attacks, but due to civilian proximity, sadly there are civilian deaths.
3. Hamas parades around with killed children saying "LOOK what the Zionists did!!" while they wail and gnash their teeth, even though they invited the strikes due to fighting from civilian areas.
4. Hamas fights from civilian buildings, inviting fire that could injure or kill non combatants.
5. Hamas gets more rockets from Iran, and has a early fourth of july, screaming "god is great" while praying that the rockets land on some person's house, killing their family.
6. Israel does more guided strikes,
7. Ad nauseum.
It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.


Hoss, you really need to learn how to use the term "facts" . Israel's "precision-guided" munitions have killed more than a dozen civilians so far, and not because Hamas was using them as human shields. n fact Israel has, as a matter of military polciy deliberately attacked civilian populations in Gaza, civilian businesses and factories, and even UN refugeee compounds as a way to "punish" Gaza for the rocket attacks.

There are no choirboys on either side. Basically its a case of two governments who both have an extremely shaky hold on power using military action to gin up support and distract people from thier other failings.
 
2012-11-19 12:23:40 PM
The Larch

I said I wouldn't respond, and you're not baiting me into changing that position. I'm not going to convince you of anything (you seem set in an opinion), and you're not going to convince me of anything (because I very much am, and with family/friends in Israel - on both sides of this debate - I'm not likely to budge either).

If you want to have a real discussion about this, I could maybe be convinced - but not online, not today (I'm at work) and not if you're going to lead with that.
 
2012-11-19 12:31:03 PM

Thorak: "If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people"

And that, in a nutshell, is why this issue is at best evil farks shooting at other marginally different evil farks. And the real problem is that plenty of innocents on either side are the ones doing the dying


Your analysis, in a nutshell, is why you are too willfully ignorant/stupid to understand the conflict. The article goes on to explain that isn't the stance of most Israeli people. You ignore the fact that the people of Gaza elected a group who actually have removing the jews in their charter.


Uncle Tractor: "If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people,"

The necessary hate is already present


Good old Tractor double standards.

Palestenains elect a group that has removing all jews from Israel in their charter, no comment.

Some guy from Israel says this, and it is a clear indication that "the necessary hate is already present" for genocide.
 
2012-11-19 12:32:31 PM

TheOther: I_C_Weener: While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Canada back to France, and virtually every other country in the world that was conquered at one point in time or another.

'Within living memory' is a little different than 2+ centuries ago...unless you are Israel, in which case, 2000 years doesn't invalidate your claim to anything west of the Jordan River.



So, you agree that just ignoring Israel until no one alive can remember pre-1947 is the best option?
 
2012-11-19 12:33:19 PM

I_C_Weener:

If you can't learn in 60+ years that Israel is and will continue to be a country, then, you can't be taught.  And yes, those lands were seized.  While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Can ...


Smh. You know, 60 years ago my grandmother was an adult. This shiat happened less than a lifetime ago. Its not as long ago as you seem to think it is. Its sad that you and many others think that its acceptable to draw an imaginary line in the sand after 1947 that excuses Israel's actions and makes Palestinians the aggressor for defending what is theirs and longing for what has been taken. I'm glad MLK, Malcolm X and others didn't stop seeking justice because there had been oppresion for 60 years. Just feeding my curiosity, at what point SHOULD people be expected to give in to injustice? 10 years in? 25 years?
 
2012-11-19 12:34:49 PM

Dr Dreidel: I said I wouldn't respond, and you're not baiting me into changing that position. I'm not going to convince you of anything (you seem set in an opinion), and you're not going to convince me of anything (because I very much am, and with family/friends in Israel - on both sides of this debate - I'm not likely to budge either).


Look, my opinion is snarky and facetious; every opinion I have spouted on fark is not my true opinion, and I have said them only because I sort of enjoy trolling.

But my facts are not snarky. My facts are true. And your claims are mostly lies. You are a liar, delivering lies and deceit in this thread. Perhaps you are not a dishonorable man, and are simply a misinformed man. It makes little or no difference to me; you have the world of information available to you at your fingertips, and you choose to ignore what is true in preference for soft seductive lies that make you feel comfortable. I have no interest in having a discussion with you at any level about the facts; I am never going to pull your security blanket of lies off of you until you decide you don't need it any more.

At this point, the only thing I'm interested in doing is thumbing my nose at you and farting in your general direction. And I shall do this because I enjoy farting, and not because I have any great interest in your olfactory experience.
 
2012-11-19 12:35:37 PM

I_C_Weener: TheOther: I_C_Weener: While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Canada back to France, and virtually every other country in the world that was conquered at one point in time or another.

'Within living memory' is a little different than 2+ centuries ago...unless you are Israel, in which case, 2000 years doesn't invalidate your claim to anything west of the Jordan River.


So, you agree that just ignoring Israel until no one alive can remember pre-1947 is the best option?


How about just ignoring it in general?
 
2012-11-19 12:40:18 PM

The Larch: At this point, the only thing I'm interested in doing is thumbing my nose at you and farting in your general direction.


Enjoy!

// and like I said before: thanks for contributing to the discussion
 
2012-11-19 12:43:05 PM

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: At this point, the only thing I'm interested in doing is thumbing my nose at you and farting in your general direction.

Enjoy!

// and like I said before: thanks for contributing to the discussion


And thanks for being a liar who likes to wrap himself in the soft warm blanket of self delusion. Even if you can't smell my farts, it's clear that you are enjoying your own little farts a little too much in that tight little bedroll you've created for yourself.
 
2012-11-19 12:43:08 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Its sad that you and many others think that its acceptable to draw an imaginary line in the sand after 1947 that excuses Israel's actions and makes Palestinians the aggressor for defending what is theirs and longing for what has been taken.


How, exactly, does lobbing rockets at civilians defend anything of "theirs"?

And what exactly do you think is "theirs"?
 
2012-11-19 12:43:44 PM

I_C_Weener: If you can't learn in 60+ years that Israel is and will continue to be a country, then, you can't be taught. And yes, those lands were seized. While we are at it, lets give the US back to Britain, and Canada back to France, and virtually every other country in the world that was conquered at one point in time or another.



Indeed, but apparently these people don't know that they have lost. This is the problem with Israel fighting a half-assed war.

Either go full-out and break their sense of cultural identity to the point where the Palestinians loose all will to resist (and probably don't even consider themselves Palestinians anymore), or just go full "final solution" and liquidate the ghettos.

images.wikia.com
People should know when they are conquered.
 
2012-11-19 12:52:54 PM
Stealing other peoples land and resources, and erasing debt.
 
2012-11-19 12:58:34 PM
Henry Rollins in Israel Link
 
2012-11-19 01:07:32 PM

I_C_Weener: Since 2001, over 8000 rocket attacks.   About the same in mortar attacks.  Reacting to Israel?  Really?


8000 rocket attacks that have caused ...how many israeli deaths? 28?

Meanwhile, over a thousand palestinian children have been killed since then, thousands of palestinian homes demolished, olive trees destroyed, crops ruined and farmland stolen, the colonies keep expanding, WB colonists go on rampages whenever they want, and mossad and the IDF kill whomever they want wherever and however. So yes, they're reacting to Israel.

What's 28 deaths from oversized bottle rockets when compared to that? ...but I suppose it doesn't matter when the victims are arabs.
FWIW I think Hamas should cut it out. They only thing they achieve is to give Israel an excuse to kill more arabs (which somehow makes Hamas look better, so I suppose that's why they keep doing it).

i560.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-19 01:09:52 PM

liam76: Good old Tractor double standards.

Palestenains elect a group that has removing all jews from Israel in their charter, no comment.

Some guy from Israel says this, and it is a clear indication that "the necessary hate is already present" for genocide.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-11-19 01:10:30 PM
static.guim.co.uk

Can't wait to rebuild after the terrorist threat has been neutralized.
 
2012-11-19 01:13:34 PM
The only way this will end is if the civilians on both sides start telling their governments in no uncertain terms that it's ceasefire time. I really, really hope that happens soon.
 
2012-11-19 01:17:20 PM

Uncle Tractor: FWIW I think Hamas should cut it out. They only thing they achieve is to give Israel an excuse to kill more arabs (which somehow makes Hamas look better, so I suppose that's why they keep doing it).


They only look better to morons who ignore that they place rocket launchers in the middle of neighborhoods filled with children and civilians putting them at risk.

Uncle Tractor: Meanwhile, over a thousand palestinian children have been killed since then, thousands of palestinian homes demolished, olive trees destroyed, crops ruined and farmland stolen, the colonies keep expanding, WB colonists go on rampages whenever they want, and mossad and the IDF kill whomever they want wherever and however.


As stated above the destruction of Palestenaisn property is directly caused by Hamas cowardly tactics of placingt he lives of their fighters above the lives of civilians and children.

As far as colonies expanding, what happned in 05 when Israel removed their settlements from Gaza by force? More rocket attacks.

I am nto a fan of WB settlers, nor do Ithinkt hey shoudl allow them, but don;t lie about them killing and expanding at will.

Israeli police arrested four Israeli settlers in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar on Monday, accusing them of "attacks on public order," a police spokeswoman said.

The Shin Bet security service on Tuesday arrested the head of a West Bank religious seminary for his alleged involvement in the torching of a Palestinian mosque in the village of Yasuf last month.

Settlers Arrested as Israeli Troops Raze West Bank Outpost
 
2012-11-19 01:20:55 PM
This went almost 50 comments before the reference was noted
 
2012-11-19 01:23:53 PM

Lando Lincoln: It's good for taking more land from your enemies. Just ask the Israelis.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 809x438]

About 30 more years and Palestine will be but a memory.


God willing.
 
2012-11-19 01:25:21 PM
I like this blog: The Real Jerusalem Streets, mostly for the pics.
 
2012-11-19 01:26:31 PM

liam76: Your analysis, in a nutshell, is why you are too willfully ignorant/stupid to understand the conflict. The article goes on to explain that isn't the stance of most Israeli people. You ignore the fact that the people of Gaza elected a group who actually have removing the jews in their charter.


Palestinians elect people who fire rockets at Israel.
Israelis elect people who fire rockets at Palestinians.

They're not that different. And Israel has had plenty of official government documents and policies describing their intent to disenfranchise and remove Palestinians. What the heck do you think their illegal settlements were about?

The thing is, I don't ignore the relevant history. This has been going on a heck of a lot longer than Hamas. They're a symptom, not the cause. They were only elected in 2007, and have only existed since 1987. The issues in question date politically from today to the '40s primarily, and culturally back thousands of years.
 
2012-11-19 01:27:06 PM

liam76: They only look better to morons who ignore that they place rocket launchers in the middle of neighborhoods filled with children and civilians putting them at risk.


Where in Gaza is not in the middle of a neighborhood filled with children and civilians? the civilians are kinda concentrated there, you know?

As stated above the destruction of Palestenaisn property is directly caused by Hamas cowardly tactics of placingt he lives of their fighters above the lives of civilians and children.

In the WB? Really?

Israeli police arrested four Israeli settlers in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar on Monday, accusing them of "attacks on public order," a police spokeswoman said.

The Shin Bet security service on Tuesday arrested the head of a West Bank religious seminary for his alleged involvement in the torching of a Palestinian mosque in the village of Yasuf last month.

Settlers Arrested as Israeli Troops Raze West Bank Outpost


Yeah, some of them get arrested. Then what?
 
2012-11-19 01:27:20 PM
The German Israeli people will have no right to engage in a colonial policy until they shall have brought all their children together in the one State. When the territory of the REICH Israel embraces all the Germans Jews and finds itself unable to assure them a livelihood, only then can the moral right arise, from the need of the people to acquire foreign territory. The plough is then the sword; and the tears of war will produce the daily bread for the generations to come. 

/er, couldn't the world tell that guy was nuts from the get go? I mean, it was the second paragraph in Mein Kampf. Come on!!1!
 
2012-11-19 01:27:24 PM

Uncle Tractor: What's 28 deaths from oversized bottle rockets when compared to that? ...but I suppose it doesn't matter when the victims are arabs.
FWIW I think Hamas should cut it out. They only thing they achieve is to give Israel an excuse to kill more arabs (which somehow makes Hamas look better, so I suppose that's why they keep doing it).


More to the point, they keep doing it because it makes Israel look bad. The folks who are funding and supplying the rockets don't seem to care much about the Palestinians; they have their own goals and motivations related to their power struggles in their own countries, and the economic blockades and military retribution by Israel against Gaza helps the actors supplying those rockets to achieve those goals.
 
2012-11-19 01:27:34 PM
any non-jew who criticizes Israel is an anti-semite. any non-jew who doesn't criticize Israel is a well-disciplined anti-semite.
 
2012-11-19 01:28:37 PM

Joe Blowme: How about self defense? Random rocket attacks on your civilian populace tends to produce war.


Finally, some common sense.

If your next door neighbors rain missiles upon your people, going to war cures that little problem. Hamas has basically been waging undeclared war against Israeli civilians for years. Now Israel has finally called them out on it.

I realize that on the internet, useful idiots are the norm, but can you guys stop repeating that "Jews think all non-Jews are animals" canard? Go back to Stormfront if you really think that way.
 
2012-11-19 01:29:18 PM

Uncle Tractor: liam76: Good old Tractor double standards.

Palestenains elect a group that has removing all jews from Israel in their charter, no comment.

Some guy from Israel says this, and it is a clear indication that "the necessary hate is already present" for genocide.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 450x600]


So you have no defence for your glaring double standards, so you are going to pretend you are tired of hearing about them? Ok.
 
2012-11-19 01:29:25 PM

PsiChick: The only way this will end is if the civilians on both sides start telling their governments in no uncertain terms that it's ceasefire time. I really, really hope that happens soon.


Yeah, how did that work for us anti-war Americans? And WE live in a Democracy.
 
2012-11-19 01:29:45 PM

Lando Lincoln: About 30 more years and Palestine will be but a memory.


Yup. That's how ya do it.
 
2012-11-19 01:32:09 PM

sodomizer: Joe Blowme: How about self defense? Random rocket attacks on your civilian populace tends to produce war.

Finally, some common sense.

If your next door neighbors rain missiles upon your people, going to war cures that little problem. Hamas has basically been waging undeclared war against Israeli civilians for years. Now Israel has finally called them out on it.

I realize that on the internet, useful idiots are the norm, but can you guys stop repeating that "Jews think all non-Jews are animals" canard? Go back to Stormfront if you really think that way.


Please sir, tell me why do you think Hamas was formed?
 
2012-11-19 01:43:12 PM

Thorak: Palestinians elect people who fire rockets at Israel, and having removing all the jews in their charter.
Israelis elect people who fire rockets at return fire at Palestinians.


FTFY.


Thorak: They're not that different. And Israel has had plenty of official government documents and policies describing their intent to disenfranchise and remove Palestinians. What the heck do you think their illegal settlements were about?


If that is the case why did they remove all settlments in Gaza? Why did the stop the settlments in the WB I listed above?


Thorak: The thing is, I don't ignore the relevant history. This has been going on a heck of a lot longer than Hamas. They're a symptom, not the cause. They were only elected in 2007, and have only existed since 1987. The issues in question date politically from today to the '40s primarily, and culturally back thousands of years


I would say politically it goes back about 30 years more than that.

None of it changes the fact that it i sdishonest to portray All of Israel through one guys statement, and then ignore the position of Hamas when they were elcted in Gaza.


Uncle Tractor: Where in Gaza is not in the middle of a neighborhood filled with children and civilians? the civilians are kinda concentrated there, you know?


The grey are buildings. The brown is mostly open area. Have you never actually looked at a map of Gaza?

Uncle Tractor: In the WB? Really?


There is widespread destruction in WB?


Uncle Tractor: Yeah, some of them get arrested. Then what?


they go on trial andif found guilty they are punished. Which goes agaisnt your BS claim of at will rampages.
 
2012-11-19 01:44:08 PM
the palestinians voted hamas into the majority in their parliament. hamas has vowed to destroy israel. it's hard to see a difference between soldier and civilian in this one.
 
2012-11-19 01:48:21 PM

liam76: If that is the case why did they remove all settlments in Gaza? Why did the stop the settlments in the WB I listed above?


Increasing UN criticism of their actions, which were contrary to the Geneva Convention.

The facts are; Israel has done a lot of nasty shiat, stuff that is illegal under the rules of war. As is recognized by the UN, I'm not making this up. They are not innocent bystanders being unfairly put upon.

None of it changes the fact that it i sdishonest to portray All of Israel through one guys statement, and then ignore the position of Hamas when they were elcted in Gaza.

I guess you missed where I called both sides evil farks, and specifically detailed that my venom was directed at the elected officials and those who champion their rhetoric rather than either population as if it were some united whole.

You're arguing against something I not only never claimed, but explicitly stated I was not saying.
 
2012-11-19 01:48:57 PM

liam76: Thorak: They're not that different. And Israel has had plenty of official government documents and policies describing their intent to disenfranchise and remove Palestinians. What the heck do you think their illegal settlements were about?

If that is the case why did they remove all settlments in Gaza? Why did the stop the settlments in the WB I listed above?


For the record I don't thinkt here is no bul;lying going on in the WB, nor do I support the settlments, but to say that justifeis rocket attacks is absurd.
 
2012-11-19 01:55:16 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: PsiChick: The only way this will end is if the civilians on both sides start telling their governments in no uncertain terms that it's ceasefire time. I really, really hope that happens soon.

Yeah, how did that work for us anti-war Americans? And WE live in a Democracy.


The Cold War did not turn into a Nuclear Winter Era.

/The reason we did not fire nukes, much like the reason Russia did not fire nukes, was because average people a) would have screamed bloody murder and b) occasionally actively got in the way, such as the occasional military person refusing to give the nessecary votes for firing.
//It's not perfect, and didn't fully work, but this isn't an actual declared war (yet), and enough public pressure can stop at least some of the violence.
 
2012-11-19 01:56:59 PM

iserlohn: Joe Blowme: PandaPorn: Didn't this bullshiat start when Israel assassinated a Hamas leader? Did that work out? Did Hamas give up? Because that would totally make everything worth it.

No, the 130+ rockets shot at civilians started it... this time.

Which was a reaction to the assassination no doubt...


When I read these IvP threads, and see comments this profoundly uninformed, I usually think, "Surely this is a troll, nobody is this clueless."

Then, I remember, this is Fark.

/and I'm in an IvP thread.
//it's thousands of missiles & mortars over the previous 7 years, over 800 this year prior to the assassination
///finally, Hamas got lucky with a few and actually killed some Israeli civilians, as opposed to simply blowing off a leg or scarring them for life, and also fired an anti-tank rocket at some IDF soldiers near the border
 
2012-11-19 01:58:19 PM

PsiChick: DROxINxTHExWIND: PsiChick: The only way this will end is if the civilians on both sides start telling their governments in no uncertain terms that it's ceasefire time. I really, really hope that happens soon.

Yeah, how did that work for us anti-war Americans? And WE live in a Democracy.

The Cold War did not turn into a Nuclear Winter Era.

/The reason we did not fire nukes, much like the reason Russia did not fire nukes, was because average people a) would have screamed bloody murder and b) occasionally actively got in the way, such as the occasional military person refusing to give the nessecary votes for firing.
//It's not perfect, and didn't fully work, but this isn't an actual declared war (yet), and enough public pressure can stop at least some of the violence.


That and our 2 peoples still loved life more that death, unlike the savages of Hamas and their ilk
 
2012-11-19 01:58:36 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: The facts are.

1. Hamas fires unguided rockets at Israel, not really caring if they blow up innocent civilians.
2. Israel uses high tech guided munitions to try to stop the rocket attacks, but due to civilian proximity, sadly there are civilian deaths.
3. Hamas parades around with killed children saying "LOOK what the Zionists did!!" while they wail and gnash their teeth, even though they invited the strikes due to fighting from civilian areas.
4. Hamas fights from civilian buildings, inviting fire that could injure or kill non combatants.
5. Hamas gets more rockets from Iran, and has a early fourth of july, screaming "god is great" while praying that the rockets land on some person's house, killing their family.
6. Israel does more guided strikes,
7. Ad nauseum.
It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.


Can we finally get to that last stage? Im kind of tired of watching my country, and many others, dip their noses into the Middle Easts business. Just sit back and let the place go royal rumble. Maybe after one nation/gruop/whatever finally emerges dominant we can get a little bit of quiet out of the place.

Maybe not...
 
2012-11-19 02:00:29 PM
The Hittites called, they want their homeland back.
 
2012-11-19 02:00:42 PM

Thorak: liam76: If that is the case why did they remove all settlments in Gaza? Why did the stop the settlments in the WB I listed above?

Increasing UN criticism of their actions, which were contrary to the Geneva Convention.


Interesting. So anything "positive" Israel does it is only because of pressure and can't be traced to s desire for peace?


Thorak: The facts are; Israel has done a lot of nasty shiat, stuff that is illegal under the rules of war. As is recognized by the UN, I'm not making this up. They are not innocent bystanders being unfairly put upon.


Yes they have done nasty shiat, and some is illegal under the rules of war, but most of the actions they get shiat for (returing fire at places where rockets comefrom) isn't illegal under the rules of war. Contrast that with Hamas whose actions almost all make use of human shields and are initiating mforce against civilians.


Thorak: I guess you missed where I called both sides evil farks, and specifically detailed that my venom was directed at the elected officials and those who champion their rhetoric rather than either population as if it were some united whole.


You called both sides evil, great. Did you miss where I was calling someoen out on their BS for painting 1 side as "evil" because of the comment of one dude, and ignoring the galring difference in support on both sides for wiping otu the other.
 
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