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(Christian Science Monitor)   As the violence in their country escalates, ordinary Israelis ponder the question famously posed by Leo Tolstoy: "War. What is it good for?"   (csmonitor.com) divider line 215
    More: Interesting, Israelis, Iron Dome, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, ground attacks, Ashdod, violence  
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2714 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Nov 2012 at 10:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-19 11:21:56 AM

hdhale: Thorak: Joe Blowme: How about self defense? Random rocket attacks on your civilian populace tends to produce war.

Responding with random rocket attacks on THEIR civilian populace means you don't actually have an issue with their method, and have no claim whatsoever to any moral superiority.

It's the equivalent to seeing a guy punch your wheelchair-bound girlfriend in the face, so you punch HIS wheelchair-bound girlfriend in the face. Congrats, you're both beating on crippled women. That totally
solves the problem.

Except that it's more like the guy is hiding behind his wheelchair bound girlfriend taking pokes at your wheelchair bound girlfriend hoping you'll try to punch back, so he can point a finger and claim you are no better than he is, when clearly he isn't.

Worse, your wheelchair bound girlfriend looks at you and pleads for you to stop him and no one in the crowd watching offers to help.

Fark, the crowd is convinced you are no better than the other guy looks at you with a disapproving eye every time you try to punch him. Occasionally, one them makes noises like they are going to punch you.



I blame Britain and the UN for giving them girlfriends in the first place. Neither of those assholes could get a date on their own.

/Isreal is not in the right
//but they are not in the wrong, either
///but they are certainly doing everything they can to perpetuate the problem
 
2012-11-19 11:22:11 AM

hdhale: Except that it's more like the guy is hiding behind his wheelchair bound girlfriend taking pokes at your wheelchair bound girlfriend hoping you'll try to punch back, so he can point a finger and claim you are no better than he is, when clearly he isn't.

Worse, your wheelchair bound girlfriend looks at you and pleads for you to stop him and no one in the crowd watching offers to help.

Fark, the crowd is convinced you are no better than the other guy looks at you with a disapproving eye every time you try to punch him. Occasionally, one them makes noises like they are going to punch you.


The reason the crowd is convinced you're no better is because you ARE punching his wheelchair-bound girlfriend in the face over and over. You're trying to hit him, but you keep missing. But you keep farking swinging anyway.

As opposed to walking the fark away, or stepping around the wheelchair, or any of a host of other options. The facts are, as this article cited, many Israelis don't actually think of Palestinians as "people like us", so they're perfectly okay with "animals" getting killed.

In short; they're evil racist farks. Hamas are also evil racist farks. So in a fight between evil racist farks where it matters not one whit to me or my life which one wins, I have no reason whatsoever to support one or the other. I will simply condemn them both.

Israel is not some innocent bystander, in all this. They could have chosen to rise above the ancient racial hatreds in the region, but instead, they decided to push back with their own hatred.
 
2012-11-19 11:22:30 AM

I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: Didn't this bullshiat start when Israel assassinated a Hamas leader? Did that work out? Did Hamas give up? Because that would totally make everything worth it.


Um.  No.  8000 rockets fired into Isarael in 4 years.  One particularly bad hit last week killed 3 Israelies.  Israel got pissed.  Targeted HAMAS leadership.  And is not targeting HAMAS leadership's contacts and safe houses and rocket deployment stations (you know the ones in the playgrounds).


Says the guy sitting on his ass in America somewhere. You know, I'm willing to give people the benefit of doubt on here when they give unsupported information but I hate the sensational bullshiat.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque - playground

I think what you meant to say is that Hamas set up launch pads "NEAR" playgrounds, as in a block away. Your attempt to justify the Israeli slaughter of children by claiming that its all good because the bad guys were hiding behind kids is disingenuous, at best. The Gaza strip isn't the size of Texas, so it seems to me that there will ALWAYS be civilians in close proximity to military personnel. This is in NO WAY an approval of the Palestinians tactic to fire rockets into civilian territories in Israel. But, lets keep it real.
 
2012-11-19 11:22:43 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: The facts are.

1. Hamas fires unguided rockets at Israel, not really caring if they blow up innocent civilians.
2. Israel uses high tech guided munitions to try to stop the rocket attacks, but due to civilian proximity, sadly there are civilian deaths.
3. Hamas parades around with killed children saying "LOOK what the Zionists did!!" while they wail and gnash their teeth, even though they invited the strikes due to fighting from civilian areas.
4. Hamas fights from civilian buildings, inviting fire that could injure or kill non combatants.
5. Hamas gets more rockets from Iran, and has a early fourth of july, screaming "god is great" while praying that the rockets land on some person's house, killing their family.
6. Israel does more guided strikes,
7. Ad nauseum.
It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.


I can't find any way to argue with this: This is going to stop until one side or the other is dead.

My money is on the Israelis coming out on top.

It's hard to have sympathy with people who deliberately do their best to cause civilian deaths on both sides of the border.
 
2012-11-19 11:23:46 AM

Infernalist: Bit'O'Gristle: The facts are.

1. Hamas fires unguided rockets at Israel, not really caring if they blow up innocent civilians.
2. Israel uses high tech guided munitions to try to stop the rocket attacks, but due to civilian proximity, sadly there are civilian deaths.
3. Hamas parades around with killed children saying "LOOK what the Zionists did!!" while they wail and gnash their teeth, even though they invited the strikes due to fighting from civilian areas.
4. Hamas fights from civilian buildings, inviting fire that could injure or kill non combatants.
5. Hamas gets more rockets from Iran, and has a early fourth of july, screaming "god is great" while praying that the rockets land on some person's house, killing their family.
6. Israel does more guided strikes,
7. Ad nauseum.
It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.

I can't find any way to argue with this: This is going to stop until one side or the other is dead.

My money is on the Israelis coming out on top.

It's hard to have sympathy with people who deliberately do their best to cause civilian deaths on both sides of the border.


"isn't going to stop" ftfm

pain killers, they're gggrreeeeaaat
 
2012-11-19 11:24:23 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.


Nothing sadder then the abject failure of diplomacy (by all people involved) in resolving this conflict.
 
2012-11-19 11:24:25 AM

Uncle Tractor: hdhale: It's easy to blame the Israelis because they are supposed to be "better" than the militants and not resort to violence, but what does that say about the militants and those that support them? What about the majority of the population that elected the militants to speak for them? Are they lesser people? Barbarians?

[i560.photobucket.com image 360x480]

/what about the majority of israelis that vote for the likes of netanyahu ...?


Cute sign...be interesting to find out if anyone actually checked out the guy's story to see if it had any validity.

What's going on right now would be going on whether Netanyahu was in charge or not. Simply put, Hamas is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and their insistence on speaking of Tel Aviv as an "occupied city" should be all you need to hear about their intentions.
 
2012-11-19 11:24:37 AM
And I want to be clear; I'm not saying all Israelis, or all Palestinians, are "evil racist farks". I'm saying those chanting for war on EITHER side are. And their governments.

There's plenty of decent people on either side who are being victimized by these same farks.
 
2012-11-19 11:27:36 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: "If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people,"

That sounds strangely familiar


Well, I think we all agree that it's the the liberal peacenik's fault that right-wing ultra-nationalists justify genocide this way. You could even say that liberals are the real racists.

Wars have always been fought against enemy tribes. One group of people finds another group of people that doesn't smoke the same kind of cigarettes (or whatever) and then kills them and take what they want from the carnage. You see some guy smoking a Camel unfiltered, you shoot him in the face and take his kids home to be slaves, that kind of thing.

But a few hundred years ago the liberals had to get involved, and decided we're all people of the same human tribe, and shooting people in the face is wrong unless its morally justified by something greater than avarice, and all that multicultural PC crap. Thus, liberal thinking is a big part of the reason for the right wing ultra-nationalist reactionary thinking, which was forced to escalate the justification of war to make it acceptable. Now, about the only way you can have a war is by saying that the enemy isn't even part of the human tribe, so it's OK to kill them. The civilians back home pretend theyve sent soldiers out to butcher animals, not men.

And that liberal thinking about war is why we've gone from historical accounts like The Iliad, where the enemies were still very much noble men of honor and decency but it was OK to kill them because they rode horses, to today when right wing ultra nationalists like the Nazis and the Zionists can only justify the carnage by saying that their enemies are less than dogs.
 
2012-11-19 11:28:21 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: Didn't this bullshiat start when Israel assassinated a Hamas leader? Did that work out? Did Hamas give up? Because that would totally make everything worth it.


Um.  No.  8000 rockets fired into Isarael in 4 years.  One particularly bad hit last week killed 3 Israelies.  Israel got pissed.  Targeted HAMAS leadership.  And is not targeting HAMAS leadership's contacts and safe houses and rocket deployment stations (you know the ones in the playgrounds).

Says the guy sitting on his ass in America somewhere. You know, I'm willing to give people the benefit of doubt on here when they give unsupported information but I hate the sensational bullshiat.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque - playground

I think what you meant to say is that Hamas set up launch pads "NEAR" playgrounds, as in a block away. Your attempt to justify the Israeli slaughter of children by claiming that its all good because the bad guys were hiding behind kids is disingenuous, at best. The Gaza strip isn't the size of Texas, so it seems to me that there will ALWAYS be civilians in close proximity to military personnel. This is in NO WAY an approval of the Palestinians tactic to fire rockets into civilian territories in Israel. But, lets keep it real.


Keepin it realz.... Human shields... how do they work Dro?
 
2012-11-19 11:28:24 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: Didn't this bullshiat start when Israel assassinated a Hamas leader? Did that work out? Did Hamas give up? Because that would totally make everything worth it.


Um.  No.  8000 rockets fired into Isarael in 4 years.  One particularly bad hit last week killed 3 Israelies.  Israel got pissed.  Targeted HAMAS leadership.  And is not targeting HAMAS leadership's contacts and safe houses and rocket deployment stations (you know the ones in the playgrounds).

Says the guy sitting on his ass in America somewhere. You know, I'm willing to give people the benefit of doubt on here when they give unsupported information but I hate the sensational bullshiat.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque - playground

I think what you meant to say is that Hamas set up launch pads "NEAR" playgrounds, as in a block away. Your attempt to justify the Israeli slaughter of children by claiming that its all good because the bad guys were hiding behind kids is disingenuous, at best. The Gaza strip isn't the size of Texas, so it seems to me that there will ALWAYS be civilians in close proximity to military personnel. This is in NO WAY an approval of the Palestinians tactic to fire rockets into civilian territories in Israel. But, lets keep it real.


You seem awfully worked up about this.  How about these people that died from the rockets fired from "near" a playground and mosque?
 
Surely, your righteous indignation extends this far?
 
2012-11-19 11:29:18 AM

acanuck: FTFA: "If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people," he says, pulling at his new wedding ring as he stood outside the damaged apartment yesterday. "It's the right thing to do."

It's OK, folks. He's just citing the Talmud and what's taught regarding ALL non-Jews. But, it's forbidden for you to know that.


Citation, please.

// unless that was satire, in which case -9.999999e999/10
 
2012-11-19 11:32:27 AM
Many see this is as part of a cycle, but I don't think it'll be like that this time.
History doesn't really repeat itself - or at least, not exactly.
This time things will be different - the cycle will not continue.
 
2012-11-19 11:33:24 AM

Joe Blowme: Thorak: Joe Blowme: How about self defense? Random rocket attacks on your civilian populace tends to produce war.

Responding with random rocket attacks on THEIR civilian populace means you don't actually have an issue with their method, and have no claim whatsoever to any moral superiority.

It's the equivalent to seeing a guy punch your wheelchair-bound girlfriend in the face, so you punch HIS wheelchair-bound girlfriend in the face. Congrats, you're both beating on crippled women. That totally solves the problem.

Problem is only one side is targeting civilians.... but by alll means dont let that get in the way of your derp


Target != kill

One side is targeting them but mostly not killing them (the death toll on the Israeli side this year is in the single digits); the other side isn't targeting civilians but is (likely) killing them a lot more.
 
2012-11-19 11:34:32 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: /yes, because if anything, Islamic fundies are known for their reason and capability to accept change and are totally open to the "give and take" style of agreements.


You think it's only the islamists?
 
2012-11-19 11:34:37 AM

I_C_Weener: DROxINxTHExWIND: I_C_Weener: PandaPorn: Didn't this bullshiat start when Israel assassinated a Hamas leader? Did that work out? Did Hamas give up? Because that would totally make everything worth it.


Um.  No.  8000 rockets fired into Isarael in 4 years.  One particularly bad hit last week killed 3 Israelies.  Israel got pissed.  Targeted HAMAS leadership.  And is not targeting HAMAS leadership's contacts and safe houses and rocket deployment stations (you know the ones in the playgrounds).

Says the guy sitting on his ass in America somewhere. You know, I'm willing to give people the benefit of doubt on here when they give unsupported information but I hate the sensational bullshiat.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/photo-hamas-missile-launch-pad-near-mosque - playground

I think what you meant to say is that Hamas set up launch pads "NEAR" playgrounds, as in a block away. Your attempt to justify the Israeli slaughter of children by claiming that its all good because the bad guys were hiding behind kids is disingenuous, at best. The Gaza strip isn't the size of Texas, so it seems to me that there will ALWAYS be civilians in close proximity to military personnel. This is in NO WAY an approval of the Palestinians tactic to fire rockets into civilian territories in Israel. But, lets keep it real.

You seem awfully worked up about this.  How about these people that died from the rockets fired from "near" a playground and mosque?
 
Surely, your righteous indignation extends this far?


The site was farked. I am more than willing to look at any evidence that would make me shut my cake hole. I did try to do a little research before I popped off and I haven't been able to find one instance where so-called human sheilds were used. It doesn't even seem logical because there is NO evidence to suggest that Israel has a problem killing civilians to reach their intended target.
 
2012-11-19 11:34:58 AM

The Larch: Well, I think we all agree that it's the the liberal peacenik's fault that right-wing ultra-nationalists justify genocide this way. You could even say that liberals are the real racists.

Wars have always been fought against enemy tribes. One group of people finds another group of people that doesn't smoke the same kind of cigarettes (or whatever) and then kills them and take what they want from the carnage. You see some guy smoking a Camel unfiltered, you shoot him in the face and take his kids home to be slaves, that kind of thing.

But a few hundred years ago the liberals had to get involved, and decided we're all people of the same human tribe, and shooting people in the face is wrong unless its morally justified by something greater than avarice, and all that multicultural PC crap. Thus, liberal thinking is a big part of the reason for the right wing ultra-nationalist reactionary thinking, which was forced to escalate the justification of war to make it acceptable. Now, about the only way you can have a war is by saying that the enemy isn't even part of the human tribe, so it's OK to kill them. The civilians back home pretend theyve sent soldiers out to butcher animals, not men.

And that liberal thinking about war is why we've gone from historical accounts like The Iliad, where the enemies were still very much noble men of honor and decency but it was OK to kill them because they rode horses, to today when right wing ultra nationalists like the Nazis and the Zionists can only justify the carnage by saying that their enemies are less than dogs.


So your complaint is not that slaughter and slavery is bad, just that it happens under the wrong pretense. Classy.
 
2012-11-19 11:40:05 AM

PandaPorn: Bit'O'Gristle: It's never going to stop. Hamas and the Palestinians want Jerusalem, and the Israelis wont give it up. So they are going to continue to snipe at one another until Israel gets pissed off enough to roll in the tanks and start chumming up houses until gaza looks like a smoking crater.

Nothing sadder then the abject failure of diplomacy (by all people involved) in resolving this conflict.



Maybe the best option would be.  For every rocket fired from Gaza, Israel fires one back.  And unguided Qassam rocket...just like Hamas uses.  Who knows where it will land?  But at least it won't be likely to do any  more damage than Hamas has done, right?
 
Equal and opposite response.  Or if it is a larger size rocket, reply in kind. 
 
Eventually, I imagine Gaza would get tired of random rockets being tossed their way.
 
2012-11-19 11:40:19 AM

hdhale: Cute sign...be interesting to find out if anyone actually checked out the guy's story to see if it had any validity.


I don't care about that guy. The point is that those rockets aren't the beginning of the problem. The rockets are just a symptom.
 
2012-11-19 11:41:26 AM
 
2012-11-19 11:42:12 AM

acanuck: It's OK, folks. He's just citing the Talmud and what's taught regarding ALL non-Jews. But, it's forbidden for you to know that.


Oh f you, he's just one douche bag. As you can see from the article, not everyone thinks that way although it's troubling that some in the Israeli government do. But you're just as bad because you lump all Jews together.
 
2012-11-19 11:43:02 AM
I find it surprising to see that so many people would be totally cool with someone coming into their home with a 2,000+ year old title deed issued by an unseen person in the sky and tossing them out.
 
2012-11-19 11:43:08 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: "If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people,"

That sounds strangely familiar


Apparently its time to liquidate the ghettos...
 
2012-11-19 11:43:10 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: The Gaza strip isn't the size of Texas, so it seems to me that there will ALWAYS be civilians in close proximity to military personnel.


Gaza is bigger than NYC. Gaza is also not as built up as NYC. Therefore, we assume there are many open spaces in Gaza, but we also have satellite that says so. Apparently, none of them is a "good spot" to fire rockets from.

They're not aiming at military targets. Whatever the facts of the conflict are, targeting civilians puts you in the wrong. Hamas (as an entity) has said over and again that their beef is with all Israelis everywhere, while Israel's (official, stated) beef is with militants.

The IDF takes over Hamas radio stations to warn people to clear the area they're about to bombard. They drop leaflets, informing people that the "area will be bombed because rocket fire came from that area - SO DON'T PAL AROUND WITH TERRORISTS, we will fire back." Hamas just kind of...fires (then aims).

That Iron Dome prevents civilian casualties (and that there are fewer on the Israeli side) means the Israelis are better at protecting their civilians. If Mexican paramilitary forces sent 130+ men on horseback to reconquer Texas, and they killed 3 people but lost 70, does America laugh it off? Repelling an attack doesn't negate the fact of it.

Palestinians have legitimate demands. Hamas does not. So long as Hamas speaks for Gaza, and that speech involves rocket fire, Israel has every right to force them to militarily STFU. When no one's firing on anyone else, THEN we can have some peace talks.

// my last entry to this thread
// arguing ME/Israel/Palestine - especially online - is a fool's errand
// and there's far more nuance than I care to type
// including my list of things Israel does wrong and their contributions to the ongoing troubles
 
2012-11-19 11:46:58 AM

PandaPorn: And isn't Israel almost impervious to rockets, with their Irondome systems? That apparently is the story I'm reading.



So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.
 
2012-11-19 11:47:24 AM

I_C_Weener: Maybe the best option would be.  For every rocket fired from Gaza, Israel fires one back.  And unguided Qassam rocket...just like Hamas uses.  Who knows where it will land?  But at least it won't be likely to do any  more damage than Hamas has done, right?
 
Equal and opposite response.  Or if it is a larger size rocket, reply in kind. 
 
Eventually, I imagine Gaza would get tired of random rockets being tossed their way.


Well, diplomacy is the best option, with no innocent bystanders killed. But that's apparently not in the cards. All these rockets will solve nothing. I think that no retaliation by Israel, however justified, will cause the Palestinians to give up. Not as long as they don't have other viable economic options (i.e. jobs). Which most, particularly in Gaza, don't have.
 
2012-11-19 11:50:44 AM

I_C_Weener: So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.


No, I'm saying that not retaliating causes less casualties.
 
2012-11-19 11:51:49 AM
Places like this are the reason we need atheist missionaries. I doubt everything could be solved over time by convincing people that their imaginary friend in the sky likely doesn't exist, much less give two shiats about where you park your sedan, but it couldn't hurt.
 
2012-11-19 11:52:56 AM
It's good for taking more land from your enemies. Just ask the Israelis.

3.bp.blogspot.com

About 30 more years and Palestine will be but a memory.
 
2012-11-19 11:53:13 AM

PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: Maybe the best option would be.  For every rocket fired from Gaza, Israel fires one back.  And unguided Qassam rocket...just like Hamas uses.  Who knows where it will land?  But at least it won't be likely to do any  more damage than Hamas has done, right?
 
Equal and opposite response.  Or if it is a larger size rocket, reply in kind. 
 
Eventually, I imagine Gaza would get tired of random rockets being tossed their way.

Well, diplomacy is the best option, with no innocent bystanders killed. But that's apparently not in the cards. All these rockets will solve nothing. I think that no retaliation by Israel, however justified, will cause the Palestinians to give up. Not as long as they don't have other viable economic options (i.e. jobs). Which most, particularly in Gaza, don't have.




Indeed. If you put people in a position where they feel they have nothing left to lose, they'll behave accordingly. That's not going to end well.
 
2012-11-19 11:53:23 AM

PandaPorn: So your complaint is not that slaughter and slavery is bad, just that it happens under the wrong pretense. Classy.


Look, the hard cold fact is that people like war. We love the wailing women, the starving children dying in the streets, the smell of blood and shiat and death. We love destruction. We love rape. We love slavery. We love fear. We love to watch a man crying while he tries helplessly to shovel his intestines back into his ripped gut. We love it when a small toddler suffocates under the body of her dead mother, softly whimpering and pissing herself until all the breath is gone. We love this thing that creates a living hell on earth that exceeds the limits of poetry. We love to carnage.

Liberals like to pretend like humans want to live in a world without war. Reality disagrees.

Five hundred years ago, either the Palestinians or the Israelis would have met en masse with pointy sticks and actually found a final solution for this conflict, and the world would have hardly noticed, much less cared. Today, the bloodthirsty gods of ware are still slaking their thirst on the drippings, but everyone has to pretend like there is something noble and clean about what they are doing.

Forget that. The two sides should just kill everything, then rape the shiat out of anything that isn't killed, then set everything on fire. In fifty years, some old hens will walk around still crying over children who have been dead longer than they were ever alive, and some people will make some black-and-white movies about it and win Oscars. Blah blah blah.
 
2012-11-19 11:53:33 AM

PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: Maybe the best option would be.  For every rocket fired from Gaza, Israel fires one back.  And unguided Qassam rocket...just like Hamas uses.  Who knows where it will land?  But at least it won't be likely to do any  more damage than Hamas has done, right?
 
Equal and opposite response.  Or if it is a larger size rocket, reply in kind. 
 
Eventually, I imagine Gaza would get tired of random rockets being tossed their way.

Well, diplomacy is the best option, with no innocent bystanders killed. But that's apparently not in the cards. All these rockets will solve nothing. I think that no retaliation by Israel, however justified, will cause the Palestinians to give up. Not as long as they don't have other viable economic options (i.e. jobs). Which most, particularly in Gaza, don't have.



The problem for Gaza is that in the game of high stakes poker they are playing, they have no good cards and never have.  All they have succeeded in doing is making Israel less likely to change tactics.  It went from a seized territory due to a prior war, to an attempt at military rule, to an open borders situation to another military rule setup to open borders to a complete and utter walling them off since they can't be good and dealign with rocket attacks on an almost daily basis.
 
The West Bank has played nicer and received a nicer response.
 
2012-11-19 11:54:43 AM

PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.

No, I'm saying that not retaliating causes less casualties.



Maybe, but at some point if you don't stand up to those shooting rockets at you, you end up not protecting your own citizens.
 
2012-11-19 11:56:34 AM

The Larch: Forget that. The two sides should just kill everything, then rape the shiat out of anything that isn't killed, then set everything on fire. In fifty years, some old hens will walk around still crying over children who have been dead longer than they were ever alive, and some people will make some black-and-white movies about it and win Oscars. Blah blah blah.



Nobody cares about Rwanda or Yugoslavia anymore, amirite?  Sadly, kinda.
 
2012-11-19 11:56:56 AM

Dr Dreidel: Gaza is bigger than NYC. Gaza is also not as built up as NYC. Therefore, we assume there are many open spaces in Gaza, but we also have satellite that says so. Apparently, none of them is a "good spot" to fire rockets from.

They're not aiming at military targets. Whatever the facts of the conflict are, targeting civilians puts you in the wrong. Hamas (as an entity) has said over and again that their beef is with all Israelis everywhere, while Israel's (official, stated) beef is with militants.

The IDF takes over Hamas radio stations to warn people to clear the area they're about to bombard. They drop leaflets, informing people that the "area will be bombed because rocket fire came from that area - SO DON'T PAL AROUND WITH TERRORISTS, we will fire back." Hamas just kind of...fires (then aims).

That Iron Dome prevents civilian casualties (and that there are fewer on the Israeli side) means the Israelis are better at protecting their civilians. If Mexican paramilitary forces sent 130+ men on horseback to reconquer Texas, and they killed 3 people but lost 70, does America laugh it off? Repelling an attack doesn't negate the fact of it.

Palestinians have legitimate demands. Hamas does not. So long as Hamas speaks for Gaza, and that speech involves rocket fire, Israel has every right to force them to militarily STFU. When no one's firing on anyone else, THEN we can have some peace talks.


Nearly every single thing you have claimed in this post is factually incorrect. Just say "I really love blood. Blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood, or glorious blood, let me bathe in you and rub you on my nipples." At least be honest with yourself about what you really want. Stop lying to yourself, and stop lying to us.
 
2012-11-19 11:56:56 AM

I_C_Weener: The West Bank has played nicer and received a nicer response.


i560.photobucket.com

The israelis see the WB as a development site. They're not going to bomb their own colonies, but the WB people have not in any way been treated "nicer" than the people of Gaza.
 
2012-11-19 11:57:46 AM

qualtrough: I find it surprising to see that so many people would be totally cool with someone coming into their home with a 2,000+ year old title deed issued by an unseen person in the sky and tossing them out.


So your cool with their newer deed issued by a different unseen sky person?
 
2012-11-19 11:59:19 AM

The Larch: Look, the hard cold fact is that people like war. We love the wailing women, the starving children dying in the streets, the smell of blood and shiat and death. We love destruction. We love rape. We love slavery. We love fear. We love to watch a man crying while he tries helplessly to shovel his intestines back into his ripped gut. We love it when a small toddler suffocates under the body of her dead mother, softly whimpering and pissing herself until all the breath is gone. We love this thing that creates a living hell on earth that exceeds the limits of poetry. We love to carnage.


No, no people don't like that. Some people may like that. They've been farking things up since man learned to walk upright. Luckily a couple of thousand years of progress is making it less and less likely for people like that to take the reigns. (You're probably trolling, but let me feed you a little more)
 
2012-11-19 11:59:57 AM

PandaPorn: I_C_Weener: So, you are going with the "Israel can afford to put up an Iron Dome system everywhere so why stop the rockets being fired in Israel" argument?  By the by, they don't have Iron Dome everywhere. 
 
Seems a simpler answer might be to not shoot rockets at Dynamite Monkey.

No, I'm saying that not retaliating causes less casualties.



So, is there any point in time when it is okay for the main ruling entity (Say Israel) to come in and say you can't keep shooting rockets at civilians?  Put it in the perspective of the US.  Say some people in Indiana were lobbing rockets across the border into Ohio.  Say, 8,000 over the last 4 years.  Does the U.S. government have the authority to come in and do something about it?  What if it were, say Puerto Rico doing that to Miami (to give it a minor international flare)? 
 
I don't think Israel is innocent here, but Israel is almost always reacting to the Palestinians, not jsut up and deciding "Hey, on November 17th of this year, lets bomb the crap out of the Gaza strip."  They didn't do it for the prior 4 years that they were being fired on.
 
2012-11-19 12:01:23 PM

EyeballKid: Places like this are the reason we need atheist missionaries. I doubt everything could be solved over time by convincing people that their imaginary friend in the sky likely doesn't exist, much less give two shiats about where you park your sedan, but it couldn't hurt.



So, you're going to go into the Middle East to tell people GOD doesn't exist? You would be dead in an hour.
 
2012-11-19 12:02:02 PM

The Larch: Nearly every single thing you have claimed in this post is factually incorrect. Just say "I really love blood. Blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood, or glorious blood, let me bathe in you and rub you on my nipples." At least be honest with yourself about what you really want. Stop lying to yourself, and stop lying to us.


That's precisely what I mean by posting being a waste. Thanks for proving my point.

// also, thanks for adding nothing to the discussion
 
2012-11-19 12:03:25 PM
It's like watching America murder Indians, on TV.
 
2012-11-19 12:04:50 PM

I_C_Weener: The problem for Gaza is that in the game of high stakes poker they are playing, they have no good cards and never have.  All they have succeeded in doing is making Israel less likely to change tactics.  It went from a seized territory due to a prior war, to an attempt at military rule, to an open borders situation to another military rule setup to open borders to a complete and utter walling them off since they can't be good and dealign with rocket attacks on an almost daily basis.
 
The West Bank has played nicer and received a nicer response.


They certainly are trying to break them and beat them into submission, but what if that doesn't work? If you take that a step further it will be genocide. I refuse to believe that Israel (of all states) is willing to take that step.

(unfortunately this has to be my last post today. I bid you farewell fellow farkers)
 
2012-11-19 12:05:33 PM
I need to clear up my 8,000 rockets in 4 years number.  Per Wikipedia, it is more like 8,600 since 2001.  Each year, the rockets get more sophisticated and longer range too.
 
2012-11-19 12:06:21 PM
Here's what gets me about Israel: They are always inflicting disproportionate punishment on what amounts to an imprisoned population. Even before Hamas was elected to power, Israel controlled everything going in and out of Gaza, including power and water! When terrorists would snipe at IDF, the israelis would take bulldozers to the orchards and mow everything down, even though there was no proof the farmer had any knowledge of what the terrorists were doing in his goddamn orchard. So now you have these civilians whose houses and their means to make a living are destroyed...and you wonder why they back a group that claims it will fight for them.
As far as Palestinians are concerned, they are like the Irish who would like nothing better than to have the foreign occupiers out of their f*cking land.
 
2012-11-19 12:06:27 PM

I_C_Weener: I don't think Israel is innocent here, but Israel is almost always reacting to the Palestinians,


...and the palestinians are almost always reacting to the israelis.

not jsut up and deciding "Hey, on November 17th of this year, lets bomb the crap out of the Gaza strip."

IIRC Netanyahu has an election coming up.
 
2012-11-19 12:06:54 PM

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: Nearly every single thing you have claimed in this post is factually incorrect. Just say "I really love blood. Blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood, or glorious blood, let me bathe in you and rub you on my nipples." At least be honest with yourself about what you really want. Stop lying to yourself, and stop lying to us.

That's precisely what I mean by posting being a waste. Thanks for proving my point.

// also, thanks for adding nothing to the discussion


/HAH...PWNT
 
2012-11-19 12:08:22 PM

PandaPorn: I refuse to believe that Israel (of all states) is willing to take that step.


What makes you say that? FTFA:

"If you ask me, I think we have to destroy Gaza. I think they are animals, not people,"

The necessary hate is already present.
 
2012-11-19 12:08:26 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: EyeballKid: Places like this are the reason we need atheist missionaries. I doubt everything could be solved over time by convincing people that their imaginary friend in the sky likely doesn't exist, much less give two shiats about where you park your sedan, but it couldn't hurt.


So, you're going to go into the Middle East to tell people GOD doesn't exist? You would be dead in an hour.


/Nope, but trying to introduce Christianity there would get you a foot shorter.
 
2012-11-19 12:08:47 PM

I_C_Weener: So, is there any point in time when it is okay for the main ruling entity (Say Israel) to come in and say you can't keep shooting rockets at civilians?  Put it in the perspective of the US.  Say some people in Indiana were lobbing rockets across the border into Ohio.  Say, 8,000 over the last 4 years.  Does the U.S. government have the authority to come in and do something about it?  What if it were, say Puerto Rico doing that to Miami (to give it a minor international flare)? 
 
I don't think Israel is innocent here, but Israel is almost always reacting to the Palestinians, not jsut up and deciding "Hey, on November 17th of this year, lets bomb the crap out of the Gaza strip."  They didn't do it for the prior 4 years that they were being fired on.


(one more quick post)
I think there's far too much emotional response instead of rational (e.g. they shot first, they deserve it, reap what you sow, etc.). In the end it is a simple calculation: whatever causes the least casualties is the most desirable outcome.
 
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