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(Guardian)   Empowered by the Hostess strike, the Black Friday Walmart strike begins early   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 635
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18434 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2012 at 4:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-18 05:58:49 PM

Silly Jesus: Too bad it's not his company anymore. The people running it get to decide such things.


Stockholders, management controlling stockholders, something with stockholders!
 
2012-11-18 05:58:50 PM

Fail in Human Form: Silly Jesus: WhyteRaven74: DrPainMD: it weren't for the "robber barons," you wouldn't have cheap energy, free libraries, and most of what gives you one of the highest standards of living the human race has ever seen.

you're not even smart enough to realize what you're defending.

Silly Jesus: They are the kind of people that would be 100% on the government teat if not for WalMart. I

they wouldn't be , and if Walmart actually took care of their employees they wouldn't need government benefits at all.

How do you figure they wouldn't be? Their skills and resourcefulness have taken them all the way up to the level of not showing up to work at WalMart. What's below that other than the government teat?

It's not the job of WalMart to "take care of" their employees. It's the job of Walmart to trade their money for the voluntary labor of their employees at a rate that the employees are worth to the company.

Fair enough, then you agree it's the government's place to look after the employees then?

/Who am I kidding lol "Let them eat cake" right?


Where did I say that?
 
2012-11-18 05:59:08 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Great Janitor: WhyteRaven74: coffee smells good: FIFY

Or Apple, or plenty of other companies. I just went with Papa John's cause they've been in the news the last week

Great Janitor: There is no reason why these Walmart employees who are complaining about low hours each week can't be spending their down time bettering themselves with added skills, education, what ever

and how exactly should they pay for that?

Because going to the library costs money?

If that really worked, universities would be out of business.


I gained skills, not just through college, but by other means as well. I learned computer programming at night by reading books and looking online. I learned the use of power tools by helping out friends who had the tools and needed an extra hand. I knew people who where skilled auto mechanics, so I learned from them.

Universities really aren't in the market of job training. If so then Liberal Arts majors wouldn't graduate and get jobs at Starbucks.
 
2012-11-18 05:59:09 PM

whistleridge: Have you ever been to some towns in flyover country? You know, the ones where there used to be 20 - 30 businesses downtown, and now there's a Wal-Mart on the edge of the bunch of shuttered buildings that used to be downtown?


I don't blame Wal-Mart for that. The decline of the American downtown began with malls in the 1960s.

You can blame large chains, or the aggregation of stores in larger shopping centers, but ultimately American consumers are to blame. We collectively chose to have more stuff - cheap stuff - over having less with higher quality and service.

If Americans want the chains to go, and the local shops to come back, then you have to shop with your wallet, even if it means you get by with less. (I freely admit to failing at this myself - I'm willing to pay 30-40% more, but not 80-100%)
 
2012-11-18 05:59:10 PM
rise up to the shining. and don't shop at Walmart

www.dariomollo.com
 
2012-11-18 05:59:45 PM

Silly Jesus: Too bad it's not his company anymore. The people running it get to decide such things.


ah fark the dead, who cares if they had a superior way to do things.
 
2012-11-18 06:00:09 PM
I'm imagining the chaos if all of the employees at even just one store participate on black Friday. Everyone shows up for work, they let the screaming horde of crazy black Friday shoppers in, and then they just leave? No cashiers, no loss-prevention, no one to stop an unruly mass of shoppers wrapped up in mob-mentality from just loading up their carts and walking out with free 55" TVs?

I wonder how long it would take to loot the store bare, or if the police would show up to stop it in time.
 
2012-11-18 06:00:14 PM

andrewagill: But if all the employees in your store leave en masse, are you going to fire all of them?


Again, that's not what's happening here. The article cites 30 employees from 6 stores.

And, just so we're clear, in that scenario, nobody got fired.
 
2012-11-18 06:00:29 PM

whatshisname: freewill: ^^^ This.

If you're at a company that treats you badly, do whatever you need to do to get out. Life is too short, and if the pay was good enough to justify it, you wouldn't feel like you needed to justify it anymore.


What happens when ALL the companies treat their employees badly?

Should a company merely be a profit centre at any cost or should profits be secondary to providing a good living to employees and excellent products and services to consumers?


Start your own business and find out.
 
2012-11-18 06:00:59 PM

WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Most people can't work hard!!!

Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.


This. I have a phat salary and am likely to get a 5 figure year end bonus and I don't work "hard" at all. Hell I just had them change my desk to a standing configuration because I spend all day sitting on ass and I am getting flabby.
 
2012-11-18 06:01:03 PM

WhyteRaven74: tenpoundsofcheese: Please list out the terms of the social compact for the US.

So you admit to having never read a word of Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Jay et al? You know that's not helping your credibility around here.

so you still have nothing, got it.
Do you think the social compact of Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and Jay were all the same or do you get to chose the person you agree with? Or can you just go with a mixture of things you agree with and for example agree with the social compact outlined by America's Survival Guide, or the left wing loonies, or OWS, or the Tea Party?

but I know you have nothing, so I won't expect a reply.


 
2012-11-18 06:01:09 PM

WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Most people can't work hard!!!

Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.


OK...
 
2012-11-18 06:01:40 PM

DrPainMD: Start your own business and find out.


or you could read up on Costco, much easier.
 
2012-11-18 06:01:41 PM
One of the downsides of paying your workers crap is that you get crap in return. Employees just flat out don't give a fark. Employee theft goes through the roof, workers call in sick often, people work while they're "Chemically Enhanced", etc. All these cost companies millions in lost revenue, productive and training expenses. On top of that, the best workers will leave at the first sign of a better opportunity, leaving the place staffed with the 'slugs'.

By just paying people a few dollars/hour more and taking care of their workers, a company can actually get a positive return on their labor investments.
 
2012-11-18 06:01:57 PM

WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Too bad it's not his company anymore. The people running it get to decide such things.

ah fark the dead, who cares if they had a superior way to do things.


You are the decider of superior? Or the current CEO?
 
2012-11-18 06:02:27 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: tenpoundsofcheese: Please list out the terms of the social compact for the US.

Check your 1040


wut?
 
2012-11-18 06:02:59 PM
i182.photobucket.com

i182.photobucket.com

i182.photobucket.com

i182.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-18 06:03:47 PM

jst3p: WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Most people can't work hard!!!

Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.

This. I have a phat salary and am likely to get a 5 figure year end bonus and I don't work "hard" at all. Hell I just had them change my desk to a standing configuration because I spend all day sitting on ass and I am getting flabby.


Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?
 
2012-11-18 06:03:49 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: so you still have nothing, got it.


so you want to argue no person has any social responsibility to any other? So I can come over and torch your house and steal your and you're cool with that? Sweeeeeet.
 
2012-11-18 06:04:11 PM

MelGoesOnTour: Those of you folks who don't care to hear about anecdotal stories about how WM has badly treated local economies, well, those stories nonetheless represent REAL situations for REAL people. I won't go into detail but I've seen first-hand how local mom-n-pop stores in small towns have been eradicated by the arrival of a WM. And it's not like the people who live in small towns have a choice when it comes to what they are forced to deal with. WM takes advantage of small economies to the detriment of those local populations and that's a fact.


I care about anecdotal stories, but please answer me this, why are these small town folk so willing to shop their neighbors and sometimes themselves out of jobs if Walmart is so bad for the area? Just because a Walmart opens doesn't mean people are forced to shop there instead of Johnson's Grocery and Henderson's Butcher Shop.


I think it is the fact that the poorest people are most likely to go for the lowest prices even if it can be against their own self interest in the bigger picture. Upper income people can afford to shop with a "conscience".
 
2012-11-18 06:04:15 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I'm imagining the chaos if all of the employees at even just one store participate on black Friday. Everyone shows up for work, they let the screaming horde of crazy black Friday shoppers in, and then they just leave? No cashiers, no loss-prevention, no one to stop an unruly mass of shoppers wrapped up in mob-mentality from just loading up their carts and walking out with free 55" TVs?

I wonder how long it would take to loot the store bare, or if the police would show up to stop it in time.


creeper.naurunappula.com
 
2012-11-18 06:04:36 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Fail in Human Form: It's not the job of WalMart to "take care of" their employees. It's the job of Walmart to trade their money for the voluntary labor of their employees at a rate that the employees are worth to the company.

Fair enough, then you agree it's the government's place to look after the employees then?

How did you make that leap?


well if walmart, the richest company in the world, doesnt reasonably take care of their healthcare or retirement and decides to pay them so poorly that they cant take care of their family, what other recourse do people have? I know, I know. find a better job with your bootstraps. problem is, we have an abundance of people that will work for anything and a shortage of company execs that see the people on the bottom as living, feeling human beings.
 
2012-11-18 06:04:37 PM

brantgoose: I predict that it will soon be even harder to spot a helpful employee in a WalMart store.

In my experience, in addition to occupying the locations of old K-mart stores, WalMart stores have this in common with the aged chain: if you look at an employee, they disappear.

They will happly stock shelves or stand around or whatever it is that employees do when they are not working, but the moment you have a question or have made a decision and need help getting something down from twenty feet over your head, they are nowhere to be found.

Soon they will not be waiting for you to decide to buy something. They will be gone.

There is something seriously quantum mechanical going on in the giant box retail trade. Is that an employee? Look and they will either disappear or turn out to be an employee who is serving somebody else and won't be free until they are done--at which time you will look again and they will be gone or else serving another employee.

It is impossible to get servce in a service economy. I can see why some nutters want to go back to a gold-based economy, but then it would be impossible to find any gold. Gold is too useful to sit around in vaults, so I favour a fiat currency which lets it get out and do something once in a while.


Take an African-American friend with you (not necessary if you are African-American) and go to a Wal-Mart in Redneckistan. You'll probably get plenty of attention.
 
2012-11-18 06:04:40 PM

Silly Jesus: Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?


That just because a person is poorly paid doesn't mean they don't work hard.
 
2012-11-18 06:05:03 PM

deanayer: "Empowered by the Hostess strike"?? Seriously subby?? The unions drove the company into bankruptcy and now its dead, closed, out of business, gone. There is no more strike at Hostess because there is no more Hostess.


Citation needed.

/ IMHO, it takes two to tango
// have worked at big companies with abysmal management...
 
2012-11-18 06:05:27 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: XveryYpettyZ: tenpoundsofcheese: XveryYpettyZ: The central story of the United States is the idea that if you work hard, sacrifice, delay gratification, save and live frugally, in the end you will get ahead and your children will have an opportunity at a better life. Wal Mart, and other stores of their ilk, make a mockery of that ideal by having full-time employees still on public assistance. What is popularly railed-against as lazy people taking advantage of the system is often more a form of corporate welfare than one that benefits the individuals collecting the checks/food stamps/WIC vouchers, etc.

You are completely wrong about the central story of the US

It isn't that you WILL get ahead it is that you have the opportunity to get ahead


The central story is not one of entitlement and guarantees

Wanna know how I can tell you're an asshole
wanna know how I can tell that you can't read??

It isn't entitlement to say if you work hard and you save and you live frugally you deserve to get ahead.

I never said someone like that doesn't DESERVE to get ahead. I said that the premise that they WILL get ahead is wrong. "WILL" implies a guarantee. There are no guarantees, even for people who deserve to get ahead.


That's the goddamn social compact we entered into.

Oh please, where is the social compact? Details? When does a person enter into it? How?

The fact that you can disagree with that as sounding "entitled" is a sign of how far the Republican party has fallen.

blah, blah, blah. Saying someone WILL get something is an entitlement.


Hey Jack, when somebody states the social compact that underlies the entire Protestant Work Ethic-- something you probably haven't bothered to educate yourself on-- and you denigrate it as "entitled," yes, you're an asshole. And it IS a sign of how far the Republican party has fallen that its membership can object to something as authentically American as that.

Oh, and nice backtracking... they "deserve" to get ahead if they "do everything right", but if they don't because they're getting screwed sideways by Wal Mart it's somehow degenerate "entitlement-mongering" to point that fact out.

Fark you.
 
2012-11-18 06:05:30 PM

Silly Jesus: jst3p: WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Most people can't work hard!!!

Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.

This. I have a phat salary and am likely to get a 5 figure year end bonus and I don't work "hard" at all. Hell I just had them change my desk to a standing configuration because I spend all day sitting on ass and I am getting flabby.

Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?


I didn't put it out there but the conservative "go to" line is that the poor are lazy, which is ironic as the working poor are, with some exceptions, probably the hardest working people in our society.
 
2012-11-18 06:05:33 PM
LOL @ poor people striking
 
2012-11-18 06:05:34 PM
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-18 06:05:42 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Please list out the terms of the social compact for the US.


It's in that funny thing called the Constitution that you misquote to back up your sick agenda. The country was established "to promote the general welfare" and I don't recall any clauses that say it only applies to a subset of the people.
 
2012-11-18 06:06:19 PM

Silly Jesus: Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?


That the "hard work" fetish is a smokescreen... compensation in this country is about skill sets, education, and personal relationship (connections). "Hard work" is a rhetorical device used on credulous people to keep them from realizing that you are screwing them over.
 
2012-11-18 06:06:21 PM

WhyteRaven74: tenpoundsofcheese: so you still have nothing, got it.

so you want to argue no person has any social responsibility to any other? So I can come over and torch your house and steal your and you're cool with that? Sweeeeeet.


Social responsibility to someone else has many definitions.

Do I think you have the social responsibility to me to not burn my shiat down? Sure.

Do I think you have the social responsibility to me to give me money because I have less than you? Nope.
 
2012-11-18 06:06:25 PM

DrewCurtisJr: I think it is the fact that the poorest people are most likely to go for the lowest prices even if it can be against their own self interest in the bigger picture.


This coupled with "lots of people are dumb".
 
2012-11-18 06:07:53 PM

jst3p: It is entirely possible if Wal-Mart defines full time employment at 32 hours.


Then that would put her at around $8.41 an hour, still not buying her story.
 
2012-11-18 06:07:57 PM

WhyteRaven74: the people are only striking as a last ditch measure, had Walmart taken care of them they wouldn't be striking. The problem is purely of Walmart's making.


And? The only point I've been driving home is this: if your complaint is that you don't get enough hours, failing to show up for work is not an effective way to get what you want. It will not result in you getting the extra shift you're lobbying for.

It doesn't matter whose fault you think it is. All that matters is that these employees are complaining about something and then acting in direct opposition to the basis of their complaint, which is a guaranteed way to make sure nobody pays attention to you.
 
2012-11-18 06:08:32 PM

12349876: DrPainMD: 12349876: Great Janitor: There is no reason why these Walmart employees who are complaining about low hours each week can't be spending their down time bettering themselves with added skills, education, what ever.

If everyone did this those who did it the least would still be stuck working at Wal Mart where people who refuse to better themselves belong.

FTFY

Also, it's already happening. Lots of successful people worked at Walmart earlier in their lives. The ones who went home and watched TV every night are the ones still working there.

I'm talking philosophically here. There will always be people at the bottom of the rung who are stuck at Wal Mart type jobs. Bottom of the rung used to be dropping out in the middle school, then high school, now it's a high school graduate and may in a few decades be a bachelor's degree and no matter how high it gets, there will be those at the bottom and there's not enough white collar jobs for them.


The bottom rung has always been people with no drive or ambition. I dropped out of high school, and I'm doing just fine (not in the top 1%, but easily in the top 5%). There's no excuse for not bettering yourself; libraries are free and ANYBODY can get a student loan. Even those with no skills can make good money... go to work on an off-shore oil rig (I put myself thru college with a job as a dishwasher on rigs in the North Sea [and was making more money than my dad, who was a colonel in the Army]) or take on some other high demand/low supply job.
 
2012-11-18 06:08:40 PM

WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?

That just because a person is poorly paid doesn't mean they don't work hard.


I didn't mean in the physical sense ( I think that post was actually sarcastic anyway). I meant that they didn't work hard to move up or to gain necessary skills to provide for themselves and their family. Being a life long ditch digger at minimum wage is hard physical work, but that person hasn't worked very hard to get ahead in life. See the difference?
 
2012-11-18 06:09:13 PM

deanayer: "Empowered by the Hostess strike"?? Seriously subby?? The unions drove the company into bankruptcy and now its dead, closed, out of business, gone. There is no more strike at Hostess because there is no more Hostess.


Thatsthejoke.jpg
 
2012-11-18 06:09:52 PM

Ed_Severson: And? The only point I've been driving home is this: if your complaint is that you don't get enough hours, failing to show up for work is not an effective way to get what you want. It will not result in you getting the extra shift you're lobbying for.


What if you can make your employer feel enough pain to comply with your wishes? You take a hit on the hours now, but you do it in such a way that the corporate office feels the pain too. Then they realize they need to play ball. Seems pretty basic to me.

Popcorn Johnny: Then that would put her at around $8.41 an hour, still not buying her story.


Seems fishy... I'm pretty sure Wal-Mart pays exceptional wages.
 
2012-11-18 06:10:22 PM

WhyteRaven74: Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.


Absolutely. Especially the most labor intensive jobs. I would watch my grandfather, father, and ex-husband work at LEAST 40 hour weeks doing various construction/HVAC/painting/contracting jobs throughout the years and as the economy has tanked, they have been making less and less each year while increasing their work loads at the same time. And because they are contractors, they don't have any kind of insurance plan in place to protect them should they get hurt at work or be otherwise unable to continue working.

Before my dad died, he was laid off from the construction crew he was working for and had to start supplementing his income by taking whatever jobs he could get; he was a "skilled" guy, too. He used to work as an engineer, had experience in CAD, went to college, etc. etc. but when the engineering firm he worked for went under, again, he took up work on the construction crew and would continue to search for work in his previous field. He was unable to ever find a position because most companies were hiring kids straight out of school with little to no experience in the field, but who were willing to work for less. Many companies prefer hiring the young ones because they know that if shiat hits the fan and they wind up having to do some lay offs, those kids are gonna be the first to go, and they won't have to feel as bad knowing they can fall back on their parents; basically, that they won't be out of work with 4 kids to feed and no gainful employment.

Dad wound up in retail, still trying to interview and search for that elusive "good job" he had been trying to find FOR YEARS...and he never did manage to find it again.
 
2012-11-18 06:10:36 PM
If we just raised the minimum wage to 20 dollars an hour with mandatory 4 weeks vacation and full health insurance, there would be no more problems.
 
2012-11-18 06:11:36 PM

jst3p: Silly Jesus: jst3p: WhyteRaven74: Silly Jesus: Most people can't work hard!!!

Among the hardest working people around are people who make very little.

This. I have a phat salary and am likely to get a 5 figure year end bonus and I don't work "hard" at all. Hell I just had them change my desk to a standing configuration because I spend all day sitting on ass and I am getting flabby.

Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?

I didn't put it out there but the conservative "go to" line is that the poor are lazy, which is ironic as the working poor are, with some exceptions, probably the hardest working people in our society.


I can only speak for myself, but I interpret it as "achievement lazy" or "success lazy." Sure, digging ditches your whole life at minimum wage is physically demanding, but you're "lazy" in that you've never been driven to get ahead or succeed. To obtain the skills needed to better provide for yourself and your family. Settled for literally the least that you can do and had no motivation for improvement.
 
2012-11-18 06:11:54 PM

dopekitty74: Thatsthejoke.jpg


You suck McBain!

DrPainMD: There's no excuse for not bettering yourself; libraries are free and ANYBODY can get a student loan. Even those with no skills can make good money... go to work on an off-shore oil rig (I put myself thru college with a job as a dishwasher on rigs in the North Sea [and was making more money than my dad, who was a colonel in the Army])


True that... I had a job as a dishwasher's assistant on an oil rig and was making more money than my father who was a four-star admiral with lucrative consultant gigs that were totally ethical.
 
2012-11-18 06:12:11 PM

Silly Jesus: Do I think you have the social responsibility to me to give me money because I have less than you? Nope.


What about a social responsibility to make sure someone working for you isn't out groveling for government benefits which in turn cost other people money?

Ed_Severson: All that matters is that these employees are complaining about something and then acting in direct opposition to the basis of their complaint,


They've been showing up for work and asking for hours that have never materialized. When plan A doesn't work, it's time for plan B.
 
2012-11-18 06:12:13 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: deanayer: "Empowered by the Hostess strike"?? Seriously subby?? The unions drove the company into bankruptcy and now its dead, closed, out of business, gone. There is no more strike at Hostess because there is no more Hostess.

Citation needed.

/ IMHO, it takes two to tango
// have worked at big companies with abysmal management...


Looks like Hostess may be bought out by a Mexican Bimbo. Maybe you'd prefer to sell them Walmart while we're at it.
 
2012-11-18 06:12:18 PM

red5ish: DrPainMD: WhyteRaven74: ronaprhys: Nothing. What year did you fail history in?

While we may not call them robber barons we have plenty of people acting like them, see Papa John's.

If it weren't for the "robber barons," you wouldn't have cheap energy, free libraries, and most of what gives you one of the highest standards of living the human race has ever seen. But, go ahead and complain about them... it's edgy and in fashion, and your peers will consider you to be an intellectual.

Not sure why anybody would white knight for robber barons. The term itself is pejorative and implies their practices were unethical. Also, they well never sleep with you.


"Robber baron" is just that: a term. Unless you let others do your thinking for you, it doesn't mean anything. And I have no interest in sleeping with John D. Rockefeller... he was ugly back then and I'm sure he doesn't look too good today, either.
 
2012-11-18 06:13:09 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Silly Jesus: Ditch diggers work "harder" than neurosurgeons. WTF is the point in this line of argument?

That the "hard work" fetish is a smokescreen... compensation in this country is about skill sets, education, and personal relationship (connections). "Hard work" is a rhetorical device used on credulous people to keep them from realizing that you are screwing them over.


See my other two responses to this.
 
2012-11-18 06:13:13 PM

seapig:

Before my dad died, he was laid off from the construction crew he was working for and had to start supplementing his income by taking whatever jobs he could get; he was a "skilled" guy, too. He used to work as an engineer, .


Did he "work as an engineer", or was he an engineer? Huge difference, one that likely means the difference between employability and unemployment.
 
2012-11-18 06:14:16 PM

Tourney3p0: If we just raised the minimum wage to 20 dollars an hour with mandatory 4 weeks vacation and full health insurance, there would be no more problems.


Not until bread went up to $10 a loaf seeing how we could now all afford it.
 
2012-11-18 06:14:26 PM
WalMart might liquidate and close its doors? If only!
 
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