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(CNN)   Shiat is getting even more serious   (cnn.com) divider line 377
    More: Followup, Operation Cast Lead, Gaza, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israelis, Prime Minister of Turkey, Palestinian militants, Egyptian President, Israeli Army  
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23090 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2012 at 8:01 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-18 12:01:36 PM  

proteus_b: Every Israeli war is infinitely more justified that any American war has been, and yet people still get a thrill in their voice when they can dream of exterminating the last Jew from the world...


I don't want that to happen.

I just want the hardliners on both sides to stop acting like dicks and come to a peaceful agreement.
 
2012-11-18 12:04:19 PM  

Tatsuma: yeah leaving


When faced with the perfect opportunity to defend your honor you run. You start the whole thread off screaming your convictions, and when called out you leave. Everything said about you here is what I've felt for a long time, sorry dude.
 
2012-11-18 12:06:22 PM  
For those of you asking what the US would do if their was cross border attacks from Mexico
We would send a Patton
 
2012-11-18 12:07:39 PM  

ginandbacon: Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.


At what point does it stop being right for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians? Because people like you pop a hamstring to get up and condemn Israel, but can't be bothered to say anything negative about the other side, unless it's "derp, both sides are bad."
 
2012-11-18 12:11:03 PM  

Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.


Medieval kings used to hand out loaves of bread to the rabble and an occasional gold coin to keep the docile.
 
2012-11-18 12:12:08 PM  

Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.



I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.
 
2012-11-18 12:14:48 PM  

Bungles: BigNumber12: I_Love_Cheesecake: Nice to see our favourite pro-Israel shill out in full force this fine Sunday morning.

Nothing like shooting fish in a barrel (eg., Gaza), eh IDF?


People like you make it so easy to believe Tatsuma in threads like this. It must be daunting for you, when he's coming out swinging with all of this inconvenient "information" and "facts," and all you have are personal attacks, metaphors, and hyperbole. Amos Quito must hate your sort for making his side of things look like a bunch of hormonal, shiat-talking middle-schoolers.

Yes, Tatsuma is such a respected member of the Fark community, who always convinces people to his point of view.



Compared to a lot of the ad hominem, hyperbole, and made-up quotations I'm seeing from the opposing side, appeals to people who think with their hearts rather than their heads, Tatsuma is looking pretty level-headed.
 
2012-11-18 12:15:13 PM  

Carousel Beast: At what point does it stop being right for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians?


It's not right for Hamas to kill Israeli citizens. Neither side should have to resort to violent actions and should find more peaceful ways of getting their message across.

That being said, I'm not blind to Israel's faults as well.

I don't know how else I'm supposed to feel about this.
 
2012-11-18 12:15:14 PM  

Space_Poet: When faced with the perfect opportunity to defend your honor you run. You start the whole thread off screaming your convictions, and when called out you leave.


Is that really surprising, coming from Tatsuma?
 
2012-11-18 12:15:22 PM  

Smackledorfer: The long term policies of Israel are what lead to the repeating of this event. Israel behaves better in the battles, no doubt there, but always sink right down to the lowest level when it comes to finding an overall.

They are not moving towards either a one or two state solution. Until they do I won't be shedding any more tears (or less) for them than the Palestinians.


You know, I keep hearing the same bull shiat from Republicans about Obama. They all say Obama refused to negotiate with Republicans, and thus is to blame a lack of a budget deal.

You can't just say Israel walked away from negotiations over and over. You have to show some evidence at some point.

And the facts are, Israel tried in good faith. Everyone at this point knows the history and details of the two state solution compromise that was offered. No one credible asserts that it was a somehow lopsided and unfair compromise. It was basically a straight down the middle land swap.

They tried. They really, really, really did.

The PLO walked away, and will not return until their preconditions are met.
 
2012-11-18 12:16:02 PM  

Blue_Blazer: This whole idea that Palestine should just leave them alone and get along in peace totally ignores the open-air prison in which the Palestinians live. This can't go on forever, and holding these people responsible for shiat that happened two or three or ten generations ago is barbaric


In reality, the rocketfire from Gaza is ongoing and not merely something relevant to those of generations past.
 
2012-11-18 12:17:01 PM  

Mrtraveler01: It's not right for Hamas to kill Israeli citizens.


How many Israelis have the Hamas rockets killed over the years vs. the number of Palestinians killed by the Israelis over that same period of time?
 
2012-11-18 12:17:07 PM  

BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.


All I could find was this:

Link

Sigh...damnit Israel, you make it real hard for me to defend you.
 
2012-11-18 12:18:54 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Mrtraveler01: indarwinsshadow: Ah. Another "let's blame the jews" thread.

Ready?

*Bong* Bring out your jews....*Bong* Bring out your jews.....*Bong* Bring out your jews....*Bong* Bring out your jews.....*Bong* Bring out your jews....*Bong* Bring out your jews.....*Bong* Bring out your jews....*Bong* Bring out your jews.....

Fark. The home of anti Semitics at it's finest.

Got nothing huh? 

You guys use the Jew card like it's the race card.

[i1225.photobucket.com image 552x360]

You should get madder bro....it suits you when I publicly pull your pants down and call you out as a punk.


Possibly the shiattiest comeback I've ever seen.
 
2012-11-18 12:20:01 PM  

Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I can't come up with a cite better than HuffPo and the like, but I heard it last night on a BBC broadcast while messing with some radio software. For whatever that's worth.

Also, wow...we've found someone that plays the "ZOMG antisemitic!!1!" card even faster than the usual guy.
 
2012-11-18 12:20:13 PM  

BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.


Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."
 
2012-11-18 12:21:00 PM  

INeedAName: Hell, what would you say if we just up and moved into Mexico, kicked 'em out a few choice spots then built new walls around everything we took? I wouldn't blame them for firing rockets and I would gladly get all up on the President's case about wtf we were doing!


Actually we did that, took more than half the country... and didn't give it back. Now we shoot people who try to enter that territory. I guess that makes us genocidal mass-murderers.
 
2012-11-18 12:22:33 PM  

I_Love_Cheesecake: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."



That wasn't a wise thing to say.
 
2012-11-18 12:23:17 PM  

Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.


so it's cool if I punch you in the face as long as I offer you an aspirin afterwards?
 
2012-11-18 12:25:27 PM  

I_Love_Cheesecake: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."


Well everyone knows that Haaretz is an Anti-Semitic newspaper.
 
2012-11-18 12:26:40 PM  

BigNumber12: I_Love_Cheesecake: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."


That wasn't a wise thing to say.


This is what happens when you put the hardliners in charge.

Now if the Center parties in Israel would unite under one party instead of many smaller parties, we wouldn't have to deal with this bullshiat.
 
2012-11-18 12:28:10 PM  
UPDATES FOR THE LAST 24 HOURS

not a fully comprehensive list, but rather one representing a selection
of less reported news items/major points that need awareness



Within the last hour:

- New barrage of rockets toward Tel Aviv; they are all being taken out by the Iron Dome
- Head of Hamas' rocket program has been killed
- Hamas have started to let their foreign national hostages leave the strip, starting with diplomats
- An Israeli delegation has arrived in Cairo for talks with the Egyptian government, but warned ground operation preparations going on
- There are protests in the Sinai with Salafists saying they want to walk into Gaza


The last 24 hours

- A fifth Israeli died yesterday, a year old man died from a heart attack while running for cover
- 68 were killed in Gaza, at least 13 of them civilians (with contradicting information from the PHRC, who often claims Hamas and other terrorists as civilians) since beginning of the strikes
- More than 100 rockets fired by Hamas fell into Gaza before reaching Israel, damaging buildings and sometimes killing Gazans

- Southern Israel is still under attack, with multiple direct hits on houses and buildings. Hundreds were fired today.
- Hamas has fired more than 1,200 rockets at Israel this year alone, more than 600 in the last four days. Last year, the total of rockets fired at Israel from Gaza was 627
- Hamas parliament building was destroyed yesterday, included in the now 1000+ strikes that have happened in Gaza in the last four days.
- Multiple Fajr-5 missiles were fired at Tel Aviv and toward Jerusalem, but were shot down by the Iron Dome
- IDF are dropping leaflets into Gaza: Important Message to Gaza Strip residents: Hamas is playing with fire and endangering your lives for naught. The IDF is proceeding to the next phase. For your own safety, we ask you to adhere to our instructions and distance yourselves from Hamas operatives and infrastructure. Sincerely, THE IDF.


- Hamas has declared that they are considering starting suicide bombings again, warn the IDF that 'suicide squads' are waiting for them in Gaza. Judean People's Front is now in play.
- Syria claims that Israel killed 3 Syrian soldiers in retaliation attacks in Northern Israel
- NYT reports that the Obama administration is pressing Israel not to enter Gaza
- Obama administration sending $300M to Israel in order to build an additional 7 Iron Domes around Israel, bringing the total to 13 and covering the whole country
- Israel says 'no ceasefire until Hamas stops firing rockets at our civilians, we haven't received an offer of truce anyway'

- Iran denies that they are the ones who provided the Iranian Fajr-5 to Hamas; Islamic Jihad declared later that from the first missile to last bullet, everything they have comes from Iran
- Hizbullah says that IDF is making a grave mistake if they enter Gaza, that they won't personally be involved because they are busy with Syria, but Egypt should do something about it
- Protests have been happening everywhere in the West Bank, in relatively low numbers.
 
2012-11-18 12:29:30 PM  

I_Love_Cheesecake: Mrtraveler01: It's not right for Hamas to kill Israeli citizens.

How many Israelis have the Hamas rockets killed over the years vs. the number of Palestinians killed by the Israelis over that same period of time?


So should Israel pull some captured BM-31 launchers out of storage and fire katyushas back?
Wait for a tit-for-tat on killing? oh we killed 5 of them, lets wait for them to kill two more of us before we fire again
 
2012-11-18 12:30:49 PM  
Oh boy, this thread again!
 
2012-11-18 12:35:22 PM  

Mrtraveler01: I_Love_Cheesecake: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

Well everyone knows that Haaretz is an Anti-Semitic newspaper.


I don't post BS. Challenge me on my opinions but not on my facts.
 
2012-11-18 12:36:51 PM  

Carousel Beast: At what point does it stop being right for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians? Because people like you pop a hamstring to get up and condemn Israel, but can't be bothered to say anything negative about the other side, unless it's "derp, both sides are bad."


I think we can take it as read that Hamas, like the IRA or Al Qaeda, are bad people who do bad things. It doesn't have to be constantly reiterated.

It's like police brutality; bad and we don't need reminded that rapists are bad too.
 
2012-11-18 12:39:04 PM  

ginandbacon: Mrtraveler01: I_Love_Cheesecake: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

Apparently, he did say that:

According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

Well everyone knows that Haaretz is an Anti-Semitic newspaper.

I don't post BS. Challenge me on my opinions but not on my facts.


I was being sarcastic since Haaretz is basically the New York Times of Israel.

If they say it, I believe it.
 
2012-11-18 12:39:06 PM  

Mrtraveler01: BigNumber12: Mrtraveler01: ginandbacon: Israeli Deputy PM Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water"

Please tell me he really didn't say that.

It makes it that much harder for me to defend Israel.


I didn't see ginandbacon provide a source for that.

All I could find was this:

Link

Sigh...damnit Israel, you make it real hard for me to defend you.


how did this current round of tit for tat start?
how did the entire thing start back in 1948,
before that in 1967?
before that in 1973?
why is the bigger guy supposed to take a bunch to the face from a little guy repeatedly and then turn the other cheek?
it seems like you people simply look at who is the weaker of the two in this moment in history and reflexively blame the other side.

I can see no other way you continually pretend Israel is the aggressor.

because I know the history of the wars of that region very well, and I know Israel didn't start any of them, and I know this continuing struggle is based on the unwillingness of today's Palestinians to come to peace terms after THEIR F*CKING GRANDPARENTS and the regional allies of their grandparents started and lost now 46 years ago.
and don't give me shiat about the settlements.
if the Palestinians signed a f*cking peace treaty sometime in the last 46 years the settlement grab couldn't happen. you want to refuse to come to terms, you'll continue to be occupied. that's the way war f*cking works. that's why you don;t f*ckinig start wars, and if you do and lose, you come to a peace.

it's the fact that they Palestinians refuse to come to terms on any peace without the right of now almost millions of Palestinian descendants to return and live in the land their grandfathers farmed in Israel plus move the borders back to the pre-1967 borders.

they are holding out for the most generous peace ever offered in the history of warfare when they started it then got their ass kicked. it's ridiculous.
 
2012-11-18 12:40:23 PM  

relcec: how did the entire thing start back in 1948 1929,


FTFY

1929 Hebron Massacre
 
2012-11-18 12:43:00 PM  

Mrtraveler01: I was being sarcastic since Haaretz is basically the New York Times of Israel.

If they say it, I believe it.


Well that's ignorant of you, as this is a very very minor newspaper that has almost no impact on Israel (less than 5% of the readership of all newspapers) and their editor a few years ago admit that they straight up lied and did not report facts in order to advance the cause of a two-state solution, and that they'd do it again in the future even if it meant keeping a corrupt leader (both Sharon and Olmert) in power.
 
2012-11-18 12:44:07 PM  

I_Love_Cheesecake: According to the newspaper Haaretz, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai said the "goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."


I doubt that they could be knocked that far forward in one operation, but it's worth a shot!
 
2012-11-18 12:44:11 PM  

Tatsuma: corrupt leader (both Sharon and Olmert)


I'll give you Olmert, how was Sharon corrupt?
 
2012-11-18 12:47:10 PM  

Tatsuma: Well that's ignorant of you, as this is a very very minor newspaper that has almost no impact on Israel (less than 5% of the readership of all newspapers)


The 4th most read newspaper in Israel doesn't have any impact on Israel?

WTF?
 
2012-11-18 12:47:55 PM  

I_Love_Cheesecake: Mrtraveler01: It's not right for Hamas to kill Israeli citizens.

How many Israelis have the Hamas rockets killed over the years vs. the number of Palestinians killed by the Israelis over that same period of time?


How may civilians has Hamas intentionally targeted vs. how many civilians the IDF has intentionally targeted?

How may civilians has Hamas intentionally hid behind vs. how many civilians the IDF has hid behind?

Just because their tech is so far behind that they usually fail at their mission to intentionally murder as many civilians as possible they don't get a free pass.
 
2012-11-18 12:47:57 PM  

zedster: I'll give you Olmert, how was Sharon corrupt?


It is a fairly known thing in Israel, the 'Cyril Kern affair'.

Haaretz buried the story because of the Gaza pullout.
 
2012-11-18 12:49:45 PM  

Mrtraveler01: The 4th most read newspaper in Israel doesn't have any impact on Israel?


Again, 5% of the market. 95% of the country does not care about Haaretz.

I don't understand why you can't grasp that very simple fact.
 
2012-11-18 12:51:56 PM  

Tatsuma: Mrtraveler01: The 4th most read newspaper in Israel doesn't have any impact on Israel?

Again, 5% of the market. 95% of the country does not care about Haaretz.

I don't understand why you can't grasp that very simple fact.


Well outside of learning Hebrew, what other newspaper should I read then?
 
2012-11-18 12:52:29 PM  

zedster: I'll give you Olmert, how was Sharon corrupt?


From Wikipedia

[He] lost favor with the Israeli public after a long chain of scandals involving his marriage and corruption charges. In 1997, police recommended that [he] be indicted on corruption charges for influence-peddling. He was accused of appointing an attorney general who would reduce the charges and prosecutors ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go to trial. In 1999, [he] faced another scandal when the Israel Police recommended that he be tried for corruption for $100,000 in free services from a government contractor; Israel's attorney general did not prosecute, citing difficulties with evidence.

Oh no, hang on, that was Netanyahu.
 
2012-11-18 12:54:22 PM  

orbister: zedster: I'll give you Olmert, how was Sharon corrupt?

From Wikipedia

[He] lost favor with the Israeli public after a long chain of scandals involving his marriage and corruption charges. In 1997, police recommended that [he] be indicted on corruption charges for influence-peddling. He was accused of appointing an attorney general who would reduce the charges and prosecutors ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go to trial. In 1999, [he] faced another scandal when the Israel Police recommended that he be tried for corruption for $100,000 in free services from a government contractor; Israel's attorney general did not prosecute, citing difficulties with evidence.

Oh no, hang on, that was Netanyahu.


Is there anyone in Israel who ISN'T corrupt?
 
2012-11-18 12:55:34 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Well outside of learning Hebrew, what other newspaper should I read then?


Ynet News and Israel HaYom cover between 60-70% of the Israeli newspaper market. Maariv is only in Hebrew, and all three of them cover about 90% of the market for newspapers in Israel.

Haaretz is insignificant and only has an impact outside of Israel.
 
2012-11-18 12:57:34 PM  

Tatsuma: Again, 5% of the market. 95% of the country does not care about Haaretz.

I don't understand why you can't grasp that very simple fact.


The Times has 4.4% of total UK newpaper readership (400,000 out of 9,000,000). Influential newspapers of record are rarely the mass circulation ones.
 
2012-11-18 12:58:52 PM  
In war there is no such thing as "balanced" casualties or "balanced" retaliation...This concept is moronic and Hamas and anyone else that uses it needs to just stop..

/you mess with the bull, you get the horns, the teeth, the hooves, the whole damn thing...
 
2012-11-18 12:59:00 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Is there anyone in Israel who ISN'T corrupt?


It amazes me what they let their politicians get away with. How the hell did Sharon come back from Sabra and Shatila?
 
2012-11-18 01:17:20 PM  

INeedAName: Mrtraveler01: BigBooper: didn't read most of the Derp, so I'm sure this has been posted. But what do you think we would do if the drug cartels were firing rockets from Mexico into the United States?

If Mexico was occupied territory, you'd have a point.

Hell, what would you say if we just up and moved into Mexico, kicked 'em out a few choice spots then built new walls around everything we took? I wouldn't blame them for firing rockets and I would gladly get all up on the President's case about wtf we were doing!


*ahem*
vagabonders-supreme.net
 
2012-11-18 01:24:46 PM  

ginandbacon: Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.


Civilians die in war, always have and always will.
 
2012-11-18 01:26:31 PM  
i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-11-18 01:28:03 PM  

Mrs.Sharpier: progressive Israelis


I thought all the pussified "progressive Israelis" were the ones calmly lining up outside the gas chambers and had been eradicated as a sub-species? You mean to tell me a group of people so persecuted are willing to allow others to lead them to slaughter again?

I guess there is no limit to the bounds of how far humans will stoop to feel "safe" and to be "taken care of". I prefer my Israeli friends who have the "Never again will I make peace with those who would destroy us" attitude.
 
2012-11-18 01:28:13 PM  

Farking Canuck: How may civilians has Hamas intentionally targeted vs. how many civilians the IDF has intentionally targeted?


Hamas cannot intentionally target anything. Their rockets have no guidance. They are terror weapons.
 
2012-11-18 01:29:52 PM  

sinschild: I thought all the pussified "progressive Israelis" were the ones calmly lining up outside the gas chambers and had been eradicated as a sub-species? You mean to tell me a group of people so persecuted are willing to allow others to lead them to slaughter again?


0/10
 
2012-11-18 01:31:14 PM  

fluffy2097: Hamas cannot intentionally target anything. Their rockets have no guidance. They are terror weapons.


Well that's false on many levels:

1 - While the lower grade of rockets might be more or less unguided, they certainly can and do target civilians using them, as they point them toward cities before firing them. Just because they do not have a guidance system does not mean they can't be used to target something. A 9mm doesn't have a guidance system either, yet if you point and shoot at someone, you wouldn't say you didn't target them

2 - The higher-end weapons they have been using the last weeks (anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank guided missiles, longer range missiles) etc... certainly have guidance system in them as well.
 
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