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(CNN)   Shiat is getting even more serious   (cnn.com) divider line 377
    More: Followup, Operation Cast Lead, Gaza, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israelis, Prime Minister of Turkey, Palestinian militants, Egyptian President, Israeli Army  
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23090 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2012 at 8:01 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-18 09:46:02 AM  
Ya, I don't have much to contribute other than to say every single one of my Israeli friends on facebook oppose bibi. Paying attention to the troll in this thread is akin to tuning into Glen Beck... He's not a representative of progressive Israelis
 
2012-11-18 09:48:42 AM  
I don't understand the blame Israel mentality. Hamas is a terrorist organization, deliberately attacking civilian targets. Israel responds effectively, and they're the bad guys?

Not buying it.

Sorry that Hamas embeds its rocket launchers in civilian areas. Sorry for the loss of innocents. But I blame Hamas, not Israel.
 
2012-11-18 09:49:02 AM  

aevorea: I watched a film shot in 2003 about the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts (Death in Gaza). It is amazing, in a terrifying sort of way, the way the kids are raised. Hell, kids as young as 3 are well aware of who their enemies are and what should happen to those enemies.

Now, I'm wondering if any of the kids shown in the 2003 film have survived to adulthood (or near adulthood) and what they're doing now.


Similar situations in North Korea and Iran. At one time, I was able to walk the streets of Teheran without fear of being accosted as the "west" was not quite the enemy at that time. We left the country in 1978, the summer when power began transitioning away from the Shah. Since then, the populace has been raised in 34 years of lies. Eventually, any generation having warm regards to the west will be gone- replaced by a generation taught to fear and hate.
 
2012-11-18 09:49:08 AM  

starsrift: Me, I'm rooting for the civilians. On both sides.


Seems like the common sense thing to do. But yet to some it's not.
 
2012-11-18 09:50:22 AM  
Ok, alert me when shiiat gets super uber way way ultra omfg NC-17 serious will ya?
 
2012-11-18 09:50:47 AM  

Buddha Belly: I don't understand the blame Israel mentality. Hamas is a terrorist organization, deliberately attacking civilian targets. Israel responds effectively, and they're the bad guys?


That's part of it. The other part is the fact that Israel occupies parts of the West Bank and Gaza but yet treats the people who live there like second class citizens.

Neither side is innocent in this conflict IMHO.
 
2012-11-18 09:51:48 AM  

Happy Hours: I ask you then, how should this violence end? Or rather how can this violence end?

Just idealistically what do you see as the best possible outcome for the area? could Gaza join Israel and live together in peace as part of that nation? Should Gaza be its own country separate from Israel?

Because ever since I can remember there has been war in the Middle East and I'm getting a little sick of it.


Well, it's worth mentioning that a majority of Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution where borders return to 1967 lines and land swaps are made to ensure everyone goes where they want to go Link to source. Though that is a fairly outdated poll it is also one that the US and European Union seem to support, and one which newer polls like this one Link seem to go in line with. The US position is for Israel and Palestine to return to those borders with mutual swaps, and the EU's position is supportive of the US position.

I think it's important to consider the world's opinion since Israelis and Palestinians alike should be wary of doing things that could tip the present balance and make them lose what is really goodwill to both sides from many Western governments, and also because there are many Israelis and Palestinians living in those countries. I think following the majority's will by going back to 1967 borders and splitting up is the ideal solution, only because it does have so much support from both sides.

I think we're seeing a vast majority of people getting sick of the conflict though. I'd say this starts to end when Hamas supporters start to see they're being used, and the Israeli government starts moving more to the left. Kadima (the party opposed to Netanyahu's Likud) and Fatah (Abbas' party) seem to be supportive of this, but with all the seats Hamas has... I don't know. It's like watching both sides competing to see who can take a hammer and hit their own genitals harder. Completely pointless and self-destructive nationalism.
 
2012-11-18 09:55:29 AM  

Sock Ruh Tease: I think we're seeing a vast majority of people getting sick of the conflict though. I'd say this starts to end when Hamas supporters start to see they're being used, and the Israeli government starts moving more to the left. Kadima (the party opposed to Netanyahu's Likud) and Fatah (Abbas' party) seem to be supportive of this, but with all the seats Hamas has... I don't know. It's like watching both sides competing to see who can take a hammer and hit their own genitals harder. Completely pointless and self-destructive nationalism.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the main issue in Israel that the opposition to the Likuds is so fractured to the point that the Likud is the most strong and unified party in Israel at the moment?
 
2012-11-18 09:55:56 AM  

Sock Ruh Tease: Tatsuma: What do you expect us to do?

I love how you say "us" like you are a member of the Israeli government or an Israeli soldier. IIRC you are in Israel; this is a trend I've also noticed in protests in the US. (If by some slim chance you are actually fighting, then disregard this post. But over my time reading Fark, I think it's safe to assume you're not.)

The main reason I disregard this conflict (and I'm an atheist Palestinian-American, BTW, with no intention of ever moving to the Middle East) is that both sides that are actually fighting have farked themselves and each other over. Any rational observer can see that Israeli incursions into Palestine are generally neatly timed around Israeli election time. In many countries, a state of war is when the "stay the course" mentality kicks in (you don't want to change leaders when we're at war, right?) and citizens largely vote to keep the same people in power. Good for Likud (the conservative Israeli party), with its tenuous grasp on the Knesset. At the same time, Hamas does not care about launching mortars and rockets from near civilian houses/schools/etc because when Israel inevitably strikes the "launch point", Hamas has packed up and moved away and some unwitting civilians get their shiat wrecked. That allows Hamas to basically trick its supporters into believing Israel always wants to harm civilians.

Both sides are using human lives for political gain. The Israelis use soldiers and settlers and Hamas uses civilians. Not to mention that the shiat that leads up to this conflict on both sides start to cancel each other out: illegal settlement creation/expansion, terrorists smuggling weapons, restricting Palestinian travel, suicide bombing... all part of the constant digging deeper of the hole that is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And yet outside supporters of one side or the other use "us" to describe their side like it is some sort of baseball game, where the fans say "we're gonna win" when they really m ...


holy farktasticly fark... this is the most sense I have EVER heard anyone make in one of these threads! Kudos, man
 
2012-11-18 09:56:04 AM  

Mrs.Sharpier: Ya, I don't have much to contribute other than to say every single one of my Israeli friends on facebook oppose bibi. Paying attention to the troll in this thread is akin to tuning into Glen Beck... He's not a representative of progressive Israelis


He's a typical old-brand neocon and needs to be sent away so he can sip cocktails with Rmoney on the veranda of the Butt Hurt Hotel.
 
2012-11-18 09:58:51 AM  
I think the problem is that the towelheads overall have never seen total war. hell half of them think the holocaust is a myth. Turn Gaza into Dresden and I bet they'd change their tune PDQ
 
2012-11-18 09:59:13 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Sock Ruh Tease: I think we're seeing a vast majority of people getting sick of the conflict though. I'd say this starts to end when Hamas supporters start to see they're being used, and the Israeli government starts moving more to the left. Kadima (the party opposed to Netanyahu's Likud) and Fatah (Abbas' party) seem to be supportive of this, but with all the seats Hamas has... I don't know. It's like watching both sides competing to see who can take a hammer and hit their own genitals harder. Completely pointless and self-destructive nationalism.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the main issue in Israel that the opposition to the Likuds is so fractured to the point that the Likud is the most strong and unified party in Israel at the moment?


Maybe. I don't follow these things as closely as I used to anymore. You could be right, and in fact that would make a lot of sense.
 
2012-11-18 10:00:02 AM  
My solution is carpet bombing, but no one likes it when I bring it up.
 
2012-11-18 10:01:16 AM  

willfullyobscure: I think the problem is that the towelheads overall have never seen total war. hell half of them think the holocaust is a myth. Turn Gaza into Dresden and I bet they'd change their tune PDQ


Exactly my point. Unleash hell. It's been a while since we've been in a real war.
 
2012-11-18 10:01:50 AM  

willfullyobscure: I think the problem is that the towelheads overall have never seen total war. hell half of them think the holocaust is a myth. Turn Gaza into Dresden and I bet they'd change their tune PDQ


Molavian: My solution is carpet bombing, but no one likes it when I bring it up.


How does that honestly not make the situation any worse?
 
2012-11-18 10:02:45 AM  
Wasn't Obama supposed to bring peace to the world with his awesomeness and the Arab Spring? The world is a lot worse off now than it was 4 years ago. It is much closer to a World War.
 
2012-11-18 10:04:22 AM  

Molavian: My solution is carpet bombing, but no one likes it when I bring it up.


For every rocket launched at Israel, we will level a Palestinian apartment block, and everyone inside of it.

Any Palestinian who brings in a member of Hamas to the IDF so they may be executed will be given citizenship in Israel and protection from violent acts against them.

/shouldn't take more then a week to get Hamas booted out
 
2012-11-18 10:05:05 AM  

Mrtraveler01: How does that honestly not make the situation any worse?


If nobody is left alive, there is nobody to complain, and thus no problem.
 
2012-11-18 10:05:33 AM  

Sock Ruh Tease: Any rational observer can see that Israeli incursions into Palestine are generally neatly timed around Israeli election time. In many countries, a state of war is when the "stay the course" mentality kicks in (you don't want to change leaders when we're at war, right?) and citizens largely vote to keep the same people in power. Good for Likud (the conservative Israeli party), with its tenuous grasp on the Knesset.


How does Likud get the Hamas to launch all those rockets at Israeli civilians just before elections? They must have a pretty good relationship with each other to get that timing right.
 
2012-11-18 10:08:05 AM  

Farking Canuck: Sock Ruh Tease: Any rational observer can see that Israeli incursions into Palestine are generally neatly timed around Israeli election time. In many countries, a state of war is when the "stay the course" mentality kicks in (you don't want to change leaders when we're at war, right?) and citizens largely vote to keep the same people in power. Good for Likud (the conservative Israeli party), with its tenuous grasp on the Knesset.

How does Likud get the Hamas to launch all those rockets at Israeli civilians just before elections? They must have a pretty good relationship with each other to get that timing right.


Haha, yeah, that would be a sign of a pretty good relationship if that were the case.

Hamas does their shiat pretty much all year long. The Israeli government responds with ground operations only every once in a while though.
 
2012-11-18 10:08:24 AM  
You can't negotiate, nor reason with insane people.

So I see zero chance of reasonable outcomes when the Palestinians/Hamas/Fata/Muslims act in insane and irrational ways.

Oh course having a neurotic Jewish population who takes it cues from the Old Testament and God, and think they can do no wrong, is exacerbating things exponentially.
 
2012-11-18 10:08:39 AM  

Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.


Tats,

Hamas only started stepping up rocket attacks after Israel retaliated against Syria for shelling an Israeli outpost, or at least that's how the timeline looks to me.

I've heard my whole life that Hamas is armed and controlled by Syria, just like Hezbollah is armed and controlled by Iran. Just before the rocket attacks that made the news here, there were reports that the IDF was mobilizing along the Syrian border over concern of more civil war spillage.

It just seems to me that the only thing that would stop Hamas would be going after Syria, toppling Assad and dismantling the logistics chain. But Israel is just going after the distraction. Who do the people on the ground in Israel ultimately blame for this? Is Syria even part of the conversation over there?
 
2012-11-18 10:09:32 AM  

Tatsuma: UPDATES FOR THE LAST 24 HOURS...


So this is happening again, apparently.
 
2012-11-18 10:11:15 AM  

Nemo's Brother: Wasn't Obama supposed to bring peace to the world with his awesomeness and the Arab Spring? The world is a lot worse off now than it was 4 years ago. It is much closer to a World War.


World War? F that. I vote we stay out of it.
 
2012-11-18 10:11:38 AM  

Nemo's Brother: Wasn't Obama supposed to bring peace to the world with his awesomeness and the Arab Spring?


No, only idiots like you thought that.

What did Obama have to do with the Arab Spring anyways?
 
2012-11-18 10:12:06 AM  

fluffy2097: Smackledorfer: They are not moving towards either a one or two state solution.

How many states do they want then? There are only 2 parties involved in the conflict. ಠ_ಠ


Huh?
They don't want two states. They appear to want one state and one shrinking ghetto controlled by tge state.
 
2012-11-18 10:13:50 AM  

Sock Ruh Tease: Tatsuma: What do you expect us to do?

I love how you say "us" like you are a member of the Israeli government or an Israeli soldier. IIRC you are in Israel; this is a trend I've also noticed in protests in the US. (If by some slim chance you are actually fighting, then disregard this post. But over my time reading Fark, I think it's safe to assume you're not.).


ohsnap.jpg

pretty sure that warrants an answer, Toots, lol.

FYI the best anyone's figured out, Tatsuma is a middle aged non ethnic convert from New York who moved to Israel to be a fundie. he might be one of those welfare leeches that do nothing but study Torah and have irresponsible babies but I'm not sure. its always the converts that act the most pious.
 
2012-11-18 10:14:00 AM  

ronaprhys: Smackledorfer: The long term policies of Israel Hamas are what lead to the repeating of this event. Israel behaves better in the battles, no doubt there, but always sink right down to the lowest level when it comes to finding an overall.

They are not moving towards either a one or two state solution. Until they do I won't be shedding any more tears (or less) for them than the Palestinians.

Had to update that for reality.


Yea, the country with the army and wealth holds none of the responsibility.
 
2012-11-18 10:14:19 AM  

conjecture and hearsay: I don't care about Israel as a state or what it wants to do in conflict but can we all just admit that Jewish people tend to be a little annoying?



Well, there is that.

But only because they think they are better than everyone else. So, now you know how everyone else feels about Americans.

Sucks, eh?
 
2012-11-18 10:15:49 AM  

fluffy2097: Mrtraveler01: How does that honestly not make the situation any worse?

If nobody is left alive, there is nobody to complain, and thus no problem.


You should get that oral diarhea treated.
 
2012-11-18 10:16:47 AM  

Mrtraveler01: willfullyobscure: I think the problem is that the towelheads overall have never seen total war. hell half of them think the holocaust is a myth. Turn Gaza into Dresden and I bet they'd change their tune PDQ

Molavian: My solution is carpet bombing, but no one likes it when I bring it up.

How does that honestly not make the situation any worse?


can you ask that again in English? not sure what you're trying to say.
 
2012-11-18 10:17:52 AM  

willfullyobscure: he might be one of those welfare leeches that do nothing but study Torah and have irresponsible babies but I'm not sure. its always the converts that act the most pious.


Is this before or after they're stoning 7-year old schoolgirls for wearing "scanalous" clothing and going to school?
 
2012-11-18 10:18:48 AM  
Is it wrong of me to wish for the Israelis to be utterly and completely wiped out? Kill every Jew across the entire planet so that we no longer have to hear about how they're killing innocent muslim women and children. Level Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and every buillding within their border.

Would that end this madness?
 
2012-11-18 10:20:53 AM  

shotglasss: Is it wrong of me to wish for the Israelis to be utterly and completely wiped out? Kill every Jew across the entire planet so that we no longer have to hear about how they're killing innocent muslim women and children. Level Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and every buillding within their border.

Would that end this madness?


No, that wouldn't help.

That's a terrible thing to think of.
 
2012-11-18 10:22:11 AM  

Tatsuma: UPDATES FOR THE LAST 24 HOURS




Thanks for the great updates. I hope you and yours are safe over there (I'm assuming you are; I could be wrong). I'm not sure why so many on Fark are supporting a terrorist 'state' vs. one of the US's greatest allies, but Israel has the full support of this Lurker (that should turn the tide).

\Keep up the great work
\\Don't feed too many trolls
 
2012-11-18 10:22:38 AM  

ginandbacon: Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.


Well if Hamas did not place military assets in residential areas and put those people in harm's way, they likely would not have died. This is the same crap that Saddam did.
 
2012-11-18 10:22:47 AM  
All of you biatching about Israel's response...
If Mexico started lobbing rockets across the border into San Diego, we'd bomb the everloving shiat out of them, and you know it.
 
2012-11-18 10:22:55 AM  
Like where is President Peace Prize while this is going down?
Oh yeah. He and Netanyahu dislike each other.
 
2012-11-18 10:23:22 AM  

Mrtraveler01: shotglasss: Is it wrong of me to wish for the Israelis to be utterly and completely wiped out? Kill every Jew across the entire planet so that we no longer have to hear about how they're killing innocent muslim women and children. Level Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and every buillding within their border.

Would that end this madness?

No, that wouldn't help.

That's a terrible thing to think of.


Maybe it is a terrible thing to think of, but it would stop the fighting and killing there, right?
 
2012-11-18 10:23:44 AM  

Happy Hours: Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Ah the suffering of civilians suffering. Are you very redundant very often when you're being redundant?

Sorry, it's late here and I've been drinking.

And for some reason I get the feeling that this isn't just going to be the usual skirmish that regularly takes place between Israel and her neighbors. Maybe it is - Seriously, ask any average American about this situation. If they're even aware of it their reaction will probably be Hamas or Hezbollah are lobbing rockets at Israel and Israel is retaliating? So what's new? (That is if they don't have to have Hamas explained to them).

I will admit that I'm not very informed but what does Hamas hope to gain by lobbing rockets into Israel? Do they have any sort of reasonable demands that could be addressed? Or is their stance simply that Israel should cease to exist? Seems like a horribly naive question to ask, but it's probably one which should be answered before we move on to the more complicated questions.


Don't let tatsuma fill you up with lies of bias.

Look up the wikipedia articles associated with it. Hamas is fanatical, violent, and self interested. That much I do not deny, nor do I condone their actions. Just keep in mind that these sentiments dont appear out of thin air. Suicidal fanaticism isn't the default mindset of anyone, there must be some outside influences driving some to such a degree.

There is an apartheid between "real" Israeli citizens and the majority of people who live in the region. Hamas is the symptom of an oppressed people being used as pawns by international coalitions. Middle Eastern countries don't want the people trying to live in Gaza strip actually succeed, because they make a great propaganda tool and distraction to their own citizens. Israel doesn't want to give up control of the people in Gaza strip, nor do they want to allow the subjects they control to have any affect on the Israeli government, namely by denying them a right to vote. Also, Israeli settlements are constantly being built, and Palestinians are being forced out of their homes by bulldozers and bullets, to make room for Israeli land development, all inside Palestinian territory.

Hamas thrives only because the people they are leading are absolutely oppressed, broken, and despondant. They aren't ignorant of the world around them, they know all too well that they are pawns, will probably never have any peace or security, and their economic future is dictated by their Israeli masters. The millions of people living in the Gaza strip are separated from the world by Israel, either by a huge concrete wall over land, or a naval blockade by sea. The oppresive nature of their situation causes the symptoms of violence and fanaticism.
 
2012-11-18 10:24:10 AM  

ReverendJasen: If Mexico started lobbing rockets across the border into San Diego, we'd bomb the everloving shiat out of them, and you know it.


Yes, but we aren't forcing Mexicans to live in a ghetto with a density of 12,000 people per square mile forever. Therefore, your false equivalency is false.
 
2012-11-18 10:24:15 AM  

zimmerman: 'm not sure why so many on Fark are supporting a terrorist 'state' vs. one of the US's greatest allies,


If you view things in a simplistic way like that I wouldn't blame you.
 
2012-11-18 10:24:28 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Like where is President Peace Prize while this is going down?
Oh yeah. He and Netanyahu dislike each other.


I don't think Netanyahu dislikes Obama, but he does know that Obama will not help him out and therefore cannot trust Obama.
 
2012-11-18 10:28:07 AM  

Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.


This is just good strategy. Wars are not merely won with weapons. You must also have social support.
 
2012-11-18 10:28:37 AM  

Generation_D: Looks like the Israelis are out to test Obama's limits.

I wonder what'd happen if America started holding neocons responsible as collaborators.


That'll happen the same day American jews stop voting democrat.
 
2012-11-18 10:28:42 AM  

shotglasss: I don't think Netanyahu dislikes Obama, but he does know that Obama will not help him out kiss his ass all the time like most Republican do and therefore cannot trust Obama.


FTFY

That's the real reason Bibi wanted Romney to win. Because Romney would just go along with whatever Bibi wanted him to (including invading Iran). Because Israel won't go to Iran without our help. Obama's win was a major setback for Bibi as he doesn't have a yes man in the US anymore.
 
2012-11-18 10:28:58 AM  

shotglasss: HotIgneous Intruder: Like where is President Peace Prize while this is going down?
Oh yeah. He and Netanyahu dislike each other.

I don't think Netanyahu dislikes Obama, but he does know that Obama will not help him out and therefore cannot trust Obama.


Farking Bibi and Rmoney used to be work buddies. Bibi endorsed Rmoney.
Now the butt hurt bleeds.
Obama and Netanyahu don't like each other. It's common knowledge.
 
2012-11-18 10:29:29 AM  

Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.


How lovely! That will go a long way towards making up for the four women and five children that your pinpoint weapons just blew into pieces a few hours ago. Yeah, I know, Hamas was hiding behind them.
 
2012-11-18 10:32:34 AM  

shotglasss: Mrtraveler01: shotglasss: Is it wrong of me to wish for the Israelis to be utterly and completely wiped out? Kill every Jew across the entire planet so that we no longer have to hear about how they're killing innocent muslim women and children. Level Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and every buillding within their border.

Would that end this madness?

No, that wouldn't help.

That's a terrible thing to think of.

Maybe it is a terrible thing to think of, but it would stop the fighting and killing there, right?


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
 
2012-11-18 10:32:56 AM  

Slaxl: ginandbacon: Tatsuma: This morning, Israel sent 117 trucks, hundreds of tons of humanitarian help, in order to alleviate the suffering of civilians suffering in Gaza.

Just because we want to stop Hamas from hurting our civilians doesn't mean we want to hurt theirs.

Tats, 13 children are dead. A pregnant woman was killed. At some point,trucks of food stop making it right.

I think when you see people posing for photos as dead, then coming back to life to go to the next photo shoot, or pictures of dead Palestinian children that prompts outrage at Israel which turn out to be actually a picture of an Israeli child killed by a Palestinian rocket, or pictures of victims of Israeli attacks which actually turn out to be images recycled from earlier in the year in Syria then you lose all respect for any claim made by a Palestinian.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Israel has never done anything bad and never killed children, of course they have but the Palestinians will never get anywhere by lying constantly. Also throwing stones at someone bigger than you doesn't always work out like it did for David. How can people say that Israel are trying to exterminate the Palestinians, in genocide, when they ship in tons of aid supplies? No military commander would advise giving succor to your enemy, but the Israeli's have done a lot to protect Palestinian civilians, over and above anything we've done, over and above anything Palestinians have done. Even when it's been difficult, like when the Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.

Sometimes I wonder if I fall prey to Israeli propaganda, but I only think that because I can see the Palestinian lies for what they are, so if one side can lie why not the other? But as far as I can see it's just facts.


Why wouldn't you ship in supplies? The thing about Hamas is that it's full of sons, brothers, neighbors, and fathers. If you turn people against each other then suddenly you have a huge advantage. You have spies, you have grassroots support. You also mitigate the number of replacement soldiers.
 
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