If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(SFGate)   "A lot of times, people roll their eyes and say, 'Only in San Francisco', and then 10 years later, they're doing the same thing"   (blog.sfgate.com) divider line 136
    More: Cool, Department of Public Health, gender reassignment, hysterectomy, hepatitis  
•       •       •

6084 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Nov 2012 at 10:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



136 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-11-18 03:02:07 AM  
Like restaurant owners putting a %5 surcharge on bills to help pay for "healthy San Francisco".
 
2012-11-18 04:51:03 AM  
I'll just leave this little gem from the article here:

That's about to change thanks in large part to advocacy from the city's Transgender Law Center and Supervisor Scott Wiener
 
2012-11-18 10:59:55 AM  
Yeah... no. No, we won't.

I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself. Hell, some national single-payer for basic care would be nice. But pay for your elective cosmetic surgery out of your own damned wages like everyone else.
 
2012-11-18 11:15:30 AM  
I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?
 
2012-11-18 11:16:57 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Yeah... no. No, we won't.

I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself. Hell, some national single-payer for basic care would be nice. But pay for your elective cosmetic surgery out of your own damned wages like everyone else.


Not like this is the sole issue at stake, but do you then proceed to lament the stigma and lack of psychiatric care in the country after a mass shooting? Argue the cost-effectiveness of this over other things, but I think you'd need to be legitimately ignorant to say all elective cosmetic surgery is a matter of vanity and not a fundamental issue of emotional well-being for some people. Would you say the same about surgery for a cleft palate? I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity, who you might guess aren't the most self-secure individuals if they're looking to radically alter their body to reinforce their identity. Nobody's doing it for kicks and giggles.

Again, that doesn't mean that financially this makes sense and you're obligated to support it, but "developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself" - it's inhuman to write off mental abnormality as being incapable of preventing someone from supporting themselves just because you're not experiencing the same issues, and it's why we have a problem with that area today. This is a case where those mental issues have a decent record of being improved or removed by a fixed surgical method. If a couple of snips would stop a vet from experiencing phantom limb syndrome, would you say that it isn't a real problem so it doesn't deserve to be fixed?
 
2012-11-18 11:18:46 AM  
On an interesting note that I just learned that Medicare covers HRT for transgenders.
 
2012-11-18 11:19:37 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Yeah... no. No, we won't.

I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself. Hell, some national single-payer for basic care would be nice. But pay for your elective cosmetic surgery out of your own damned wages like everyone else.


It's not, however, "elective cosmetic surgery", but a necessary medical procedure, according to the AMA and DSM. If San Francisco is going to cover necessary medical procedures for uninsured residents, then it should cover all such necessary medical procedures, and not second-guess doctors. None of this "oh, sure, your doctor claims you need surgery, but I'm an elected public official with a law degree, so therefore I know more about medicine" bullshiat like you're suggesting.
 
2012-11-18 11:20:54 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?


My thoughts too. Also add in California's and San Francisco's inability to pay it's bills.

I like how the article tries to say that the city pays for hysterectomies for breast cancer patients but not trans people and that's hypocritical. And the same for testicular cancer patients. What a farking joke. The nerve of some people, always thinking they're as important as cancer.
 
2012-11-18 11:27:58 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?


Because by only being reactive to life threatening conditions, you're addressing them at their most expensive times, rather than spending a small amount of money earlier for preventative care. In this case, these operations may prevent severe depression, drug use, and suicide attempts, and obviate the need for expensive life-saving care and involuntary commitment to a psych ward.
 
2012-11-18 11:33:00 AM  
My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.
 
2012-11-18 11:38:00 AM  
Wow. San Francisco, leading the charge into stupidity again.
 
2012-11-18 11:38:38 AM  

sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.


This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.
 
2012-11-18 11:39:30 AM  

Theaetetus: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?

Because by only being reactive to life threatening conditions, you're addressing them at their most expensive times, rather than spending a small amount of money earlier for preventative care. In this case, these operations may prevent severe depression, drug use, and suicide attempts, and obviate the need for expensive life-saving care and involuntary commitment to a psych ward.


With respect to the justice aspect of medical ethics, I don't see the expensive operation to prevent the possible circumstances you have listed as an ethical application of health care resources. I would change my opinion if there were research articles showing that this is a better use of resources.
 
2012-11-18 11:44:34 AM  

evilmrsock: it's inhuman to write off mental abnormality as being incapable of preventing someone from supporting themselves just because you're not experiencing the same issues


How about I write it off as being incapable of preventing someone from supporting himself because it's incapable of preventing someone from supporting himself?

The only profession where thinking you're the wrong sex would prevent you from actually making a living is prostitution, and that's already illegal most places. Therefore, no, you don't get the same priority as people getting cancer, or losing limbs, or thinking they're Napoleon, etc. Not yours.

I'm not saying that the procedure should be illegal or anything, I'm saying if you want it save up and pay for it yourself.
 
2012-11-18 11:47:02 AM  

LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.


Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.
 
2012-11-18 11:47:38 AM  
Why is this bullshiat in the geek tab?
 
2012-11-18 11:48:05 AM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.


Pardon my punctuation errors, it is early.
 
2012-11-18 11:49:41 AM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.


I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.
 
2012-11-18 11:51:22 AM  

LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.


If it's not the same, prove that it isn't. You're asserting that a person who believes they need gender reassignment surgery is different than someone who wants a nose job, chin implants etc.
 
2012-11-18 11:51:40 AM  
Nuke the entire site from orbit, its the only way to be sure
 
2012-11-18 11:55:37 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: Theaetetus: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?

Because by only being reactive to life threatening conditions, you're addressing them at their most expensive times, rather than spending a small amount of money earlier for preventative care. In this case, these operations may prevent severe depression, drug use, and suicide attempts, and obviate the need for expensive life-saving care and involuntary commitment to a psych ward.

With respect to the justice aspect of medical ethics, I don't see the expensive operation to prevent the possible circumstances you have listed as an ethical application of health care resources. I would change my opinion if there were research articles showing that this is a better use of resources.


Not sure I understand what you were saying - first "justice" aspect of medical ethics? Second, why is it not ethical to prevent suicide?
Or, are you saying that "we could help one person for $X with this operation, or we could help 10 homeless people for the same $X, and therefore it is more just that we spend the money on the 10 people"?
 
2012-11-18 11:56:54 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

If it's not the same, prove that it isn't. You're asserting that a person who believes they need gender reassignment surgery is different than someone who wants a nose job, chin implants etc.


Are you asserting the contrary? That a person who believes they need gender reassignment surgery is no different than someone who wants a nose job, chin implants, etc.?
 
2012-11-18 11:57:19 AM  

LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.


Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.
 
2012-11-18 12:01:24 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.

Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.


Sure, and it is the same... His self-reporting isn't enough, of course, but if a qualified doctor or two find that yes, he is suicidal, and the only thing that would keep him from killing himself is a nose job, then isn't a nose job a medically necessary procedure?

/Mind you, I find it highly unlikely that doctors would find that
 
2012-11-18 12:05:56 PM  

titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.


There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?
 
2012-11-18 12:06:37 PM  

My thoughts too. Also add in California's and San Francisco's inability to pay it's bills.



I would like to point out that CA is on track to have a Surplus and SF has never had an 'inability to pay it's bills,' even through the worst of CA's fiscal issues. Hey how about all the states rights' and spending decisions need to be made locally folks stand up for something like this in principle even if you don't agree with the premise?
 
2012-11-18 12:08:07 PM  

machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?


If we are going to foot the bill for gender reassignment then yes.
 
2012-11-18 12:09:04 PM  

machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?


Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?
 
2012-11-18 12:09:15 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.

Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.


No, it's not the same. The pressures felt by someone who is "the wrong gender" is NOT AT ALL the same as the pressures one feels to be attractive. The two are not equal.
 
2012-11-18 12:11:20 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.


You surely must realize how ridiculous it is to reduce both to "feeling uncomfortable" and saying they're the same? That's like saying a papercut and a knifewound are the same. Sure, both cuts, but treated differently because they are of different severity.
 
2012-11-18 12:16:43 PM  

LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.

Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.

No, it's not the same. The pressures felt by someone who is "the wrong gender" is NOT AT ALL the same as the pressures one feels to be attractive. The two are not equal.


Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia. Their need to "fix" themselves is just as damaging psychologically as someone that feels the need to change gender. To person suffering the need is no less important as anyone else's. Just because you perceive a nose job as trivial compared to gender reassignment, to the person that is crippled by their feeling that their appearance is not who they are it isn't .
 
2012-11-18 12:17:15 PM  
I think part of the problem is that there is a misunderstanding about the preconditions to get this surgery. It's not like plastic surgery where you go make an appointment with a doc and have an outpatient procedure or something along those lines. From my understanding you need a psych evaluation and you need to live like your target gender for a period of time. You also just cannot fly into SF claim residency and wait on your castration line... It's not like penises and vaginas are being given out like Halloween presents in the Castro....
 
2012-11-18 12:18:27 PM  

titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia.


Look at those goalposts move!

"All things are equal, or none are."
 
2012-11-18 12:18:43 PM  

titwrench: Just because you perceive a nose job as trivial compared to gender reassignment, to the person that is crippled by their feeling that their appearance is not who they are it isn't .


I think the issue here was that Lasers reasonably believes that Sage was trolling.
 
2012-11-18 12:18:59 PM  

titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia. Their need to "fix" themselves is just as damaging psychologically as someone that feels the need to change gender. To person suffering the need is no less important as anyone else's. Just because you perceive a nose job as trivial compared to gender reassignment, to the person that is crippled by their feeling that their appearance is not who they are it isn't .


I will agree with you when you can point me to the numerous stories of people trying to give themselves a nose job at home...
 
2012-11-18 12:19:59 PM  

evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity


Citation needed
 
2012-11-18 12:20:13 PM  

Theaetetus: titwrench: Just because you perceive a nose job as trivial compared to gender reassignment, to the person that is crippled by their feeling that their appearance is not who they are it isn't .

I think the issue here was that Lasers reasonably believes that Sage was trolling.


Bingo. I do not believe he was speaking on behalf of those with serious mental issues, I think he was trying to be a dick.
 
2012-11-18 12:23:13 PM  
Supervisor Scott Wiener

Ouch, just blew hot coffee out my nose. :(
 
2012-11-18 12:24:04 PM  
Please realize I am not arguing vanity or a stripper that gets a set of bolt ons to increase her tips. I am arguing that there are people that suffer due to body dismorphia on many levels and in different ways and if we are going to say it is OK to pay for one it had to be OK for them all. You can't just walk in and say I want to be a woman and the state writes a check. You have to go through a long process of physical and psychological evaluation and the process should be the same for all cases but you can't tell one person that suffers yes and the other one no because of some perceived difference in importance.
 
2012-11-18 12:24:09 PM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed


Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".
 
2012-11-18 12:25:28 PM  
If you have a problem with this, you simply are incapable or recognizing that these people were born in the wrong body. I bet you were mad when black were given the right to vote.
 
2012-11-18 12:28:18 PM  

LasersHurt: titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia.

Look at those goalposts move!

"All things are equal, or none are."


How did I move the goal posts? I presented a perfectly reasonable example of how people are psychologically tortured by their need to look different.
 
2012-11-18 12:29:49 PM  

Theaetetus: It's not, however, "elective cosmetic surgery", but a necessary medical procedure, according to the AMA and DSM.


So 40 years ago they just withered and died?
 
2012-11-18 12:31:45 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia.

Look at those goalposts move!

"All things are equal, or none are."

How did I move the goal posts? I presented a perfectly reasonable example of how people are psychologically tortured by their need to look different.


Because you're lumping together entirely dissimilar things under the banner of "tortured by their need to look different." The issues are far more complex than that.

Regardless, we're still off topic - I responded to another, DIFFERENT person's post because I felt they were being intentionally disingenuous. You wanted to take me up on that for some reason, but that's not why I am here.
 
2012-11-18 12:35:16 PM  

LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia.

Look at those goalposts move!

"All things are equal, or none are."

How did I move the goal posts? I presented a perfectly reasonable example of how people are psychologically tortured by their need to look different.

Because you're lumping together entirely dissimilar things under the banner of "tortured by their need to look different." The issues are far more complex than that.

Regardless, we're still off topic - I responded to another, DIFFERENT person's post because I felt they were being intentionally disingenuous. You wanted to take me up on that for some reason, but that's not why I am here.


To the person dealing with it it isn't different.
 
2012-11-18 12:35:54 PM  

Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".


Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism
 
2012-11-18 12:35:57 PM  

R.A.Danny: So 40 years ago they just withered and died?


That's what I thought until I did the research - they self mutilated and suicide. The self mutilation part goes back hundreds of years. I mean when a dude cuts off his talleywacker, someone will write a story about it.
 
2012-11-18 12:37:24 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia.

Look at those goalposts move!

"All things are equal, or none are."

How did I move the goal posts? I presented a perfectly reasonable example of how people are psychologically tortured by their need to look different.

Because you're lumping together entirely dissimilar things under the banner of "tortured by their need to look different." The issues are far more complex than that.

Regardless, we're still off topic - I responded to another, DIFFERENT person's post because I felt they were being intentionally disingenuous. You wanted to take me up on that for some reason, but that's not why I am here.

To the person dealing with it it isn't different.


Medicine doesn't care about your opinion.
 
2012-11-18 12:38:00 PM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism


"Sex Change Regret" sounds like a perfectly cromulent source for unbiased information.
 
2012-11-18 12:38:16 PM  

R.A.Danny: Theaetetus: It's not, however, "elective cosmetic surgery", but a necessary medical procedure, according to the AMA and DSM.

So 40 years ago they just withered and died?


Yeah. Although instead of "withered", it's more "shot themselves in the head," Jackass.
 
2012-11-18 12:38:26 PM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism


Yeah so basically once medicine does it's job, it would be helpful if the rest of society didn't treat these folks like outcasts. You're right - that's too big a problem to solve, let's call it a day and eat some pie.
 
2012-11-18 12:40:58 PM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism


Note the second variable there. Your study actually fails to support your claim. that there's a dispute regarding surgery for transgenders. Rather, your study suggests that even with surgery, they're still at high risk compared to the general population. That's a different question, you'll note.
 
2012-11-18 12:42:50 PM  

LasersHurt: Wasilla Hillbilly: Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism

"Sex Change Regret" sounds like a perfectly cromulent source for unbiased information.


PubMed source. But, as I noted, this study doesn't compare "transgender without surgery" to "transgender with surgery," but instead "transgender with surgery" to "nontransgender", which is an entirely different variable.
 
2012-11-18 12:44:43 PM  

Theaetetus: "Sex Change Regret" sounds like a perfectly cromulent source for unbiased information.

PubMed source. But, as I noted, this study doesn't compare "transgender without surgery" to "transgender with surgery," but instead "transgender with surgery" to "nontransgender", which is an entirely different variable.


Thanks for finding a better source, and you're right that the significance of it is pretty much "nothing" as it's compared to the general public. The Gay community had a lot of bad-looking stats compared to the general population, too, but as societal acceptance has grown, these negative factors have been reducing/reduced. Imagine that.
 
2012-11-18 12:49:16 PM  

LasersHurt: Theaetetus: "Sex Change Regret" sounds like a perfectly cromulent source for unbiased information.

PubMed source. But, as I noted, this study doesn't compare "transgender without surgery" to "transgender with surgery," but instead "transgender with surgery" to "nontransgender", which is an entirely different variable.

Thanks for finding a better source, and you're right that the significance of it is pretty much "nothing" as it's compared to the general public. The Gay community had a lot of bad-looking stats compared to the general population, too, but as societal acceptance has grown, these negative factors have been reducing/reduced. Imagine that.


I personally find it incredibly shocking that all of the problems of the gay community haven't been solved already. I mean, if they weren't, then we'd expect to see some signs that their issues still exist, like people on public internet forums discussing whether their medical procedures should be paid out of pocket or not, or whether they should be allowed to marry, or whether employers should get to fire them based on their sexual orientation or presentation. Clearly, since such discussions aren't occurring, then everything has been solved and studies that show a worse outcome for transgender people can't have any causes related to social acceptance.
 
2012-11-18 12:55:19 PM  
i was not buttfarking or been buttfarked by some guy 10 years ago, now, nor will i in the future. keep to yourself san frangayco.
 
2012-11-18 12:55:35 PM  

titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.

Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.

No, it's not the same. The pressures felt by someone who is "the wrong gender" is NOT AT ALL the same as the pressures one feels to be attractive. The two are not equal.

Tell that to girls suffering anorexia and bulimia. Their need to "fix" themselves is just as damaging psychologically as someone that feels the need to change gender. To person suffering the need is no less important as anyone else's. Just because you perceive a nose job as trivial compared to gender reassi ...


People suffering from anorexia and bulimia GET MEDICAL TREATMENT, because those are MEDICALLY ACKNOWLEDGED CONDITIONS. Like gender dysmorphia.

If you disagree with San Francisco here, your issue is with the AMA and DSM. They're the ones deciding what is and is not a medical condition.
 
2012-11-18 01:02:43 PM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed


While I thank people that actually tried to research this, I will admit to this being not being a medically informed statement but a logically deduced one: I have never heard of transgender surgery being forcibly done to someone against their will; and I have never heard of a large outcry from the transgender community about banning the practice. I therefore assume that a majority of patients have a positive experience as a result of the surgery, or there would not be a demand for more and it would not be recommended on the basis of positive feedback.

I tried to phrase my statement as loosely as possible - typically improves internal disposition - to not imply that it always improves their physical lot in life, which if you could show, would go a long way in stating that this would be money well spent. I'd personally not support it because I'd rather that pool of money go into more globally applicable tools - shiat, increased coverage for hormone treatments (which have more varied uses), side by side, same dollars spent, I'd pick that over this and it'd still help the intended audience. But that's different than not supporting because it doesn't effect you or people you personally know so you don't recognize it as being a problem yet (see: aids, homosexuality not being a choice, autism being a spectral disorder, and other things that magically become important once it tangentially effects someone you know).
 
2012-11-18 01:07:46 PM  

Theaetetus: LasersHurt: Wasilla Hillbilly: Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism

"Sex Change Regret" sounds like a perfectly cromulent source for unbiased information.

PubMed source. But, as I noted, this study doesn't compare "transgender without surgery" to "transgender with surgery," but instead "transgender with surgery" to "nontransgender", which is an entirely different variable.


My point wasn't so hard to make as all that. I think i've shown that there are enough people out there that regret having it done for various reasons that saying "the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity" is a dubious claim.

I'm not a bigot, or at leat I try not to be. I've know and cared for transgendered people on a number of occasions. In my limited scope, happiness is not the standard result of all this. 

If you could find some data suggesting otherwise that would be great. I don't have a concrete set of beliefs regarding this. Merely that I felt the initial claim I quoted was perhaps ill-informed. But, then again maybe not, thus the request of "citation needed".
 
2012-11-18 01:10:34 PM  
This is why I hate business meetings in San Fran. Can't pick up a hooker without a genetic screening.
 
2012-11-18 01:18:41 PM  

wildcardjack: This is why I hate business meetings in San Fran. Can't pick up a hooker without a genetic screening.


Ha, just wait until it's illegal to ask for one. Discrimination and all. You'll pick a freakshow tranny hooker and be glad you have the right. Or something.
 
2012-11-18 01:22:02 PM  

Theaetetus: R.A.Danny: Theaetetus: It's not, however, "elective cosmetic surgery", but a necessary medical procedure, according to the AMA and DSM.

So 40 years ago they just withered and died?

Yeah. Although instead of "withered", it's more "shot themselves in the head," Jackass.


Well it's cheaper.
 
2012-11-18 01:23:36 PM  

Simplicity: I think part of the problem is that there is a misunderstanding about the preconditions to get this surgery. It's not like plastic surgery where you go make an appointment with a doc and have an outpatient procedure or something along those lines. From my understanding you need a psych evaluation and you need to live like your target gender for a period of time. You also just cannot fly into SF claim residency and wait on your castration line... It's not like penises and vaginas are being given out like Halloween presents in the Castro....


The waiting period and psych evaluation are in theory. I worked with a guy who got her SRS within 5mos of transitioning. Before that he never show any indication of being transgender and he lied to the psychiatrist about when he started living as a woman.
 
2012-11-18 01:25:38 PM  

Theaetetus: Wasilla Hillbilly: evilmrsock: I don't think there's any dispute that the surgery typically improves the internal disposition of a transgender identity

Citation needed

Citation of a lack of dispute in the medical community? Citation of a lack of something? Really?
How about you find a citation that there is a serious dispute in the medical* community, mmkay?

*note, "medical". Not "political" or "religious".


Aw haha, it thinks it's a person!
 
2012-11-18 01:27:08 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Yeah... no. No, we won't.

I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself. Hell, some national single-payer for basic care would be nice. But pay for your elective cosmetic surgery out of your own damned wages like everyone else.


What about a child born with a cleft palate whose parent's are too poor to afford the procedure? Would you have them live with it until they're in their mid 20's and have a job with private insurance that would cover the procedure (and by extension, exposing them to two decades of taunting from their peers and stares from strangers when they go out in public)?

/If you answer no, you're a hypocrite since a cleft palate and gender dysphoria are both valid recognized medical conditions.
//If you answer yes, you're probably a terrible person.
 
2012-11-18 01:45:35 PM  
Pay for your own delusions.
 
2012-11-18 01:47:03 PM  
Awesome! A great way for the GOP to fix their women problem!
 
2012-11-18 01:49:59 PM  
i.imgur.com

24.media.tumblr.com

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-11-18 01:54:12 PM  
When we have to pay back the Chinese for all the money we are borrowing form them... may I suggest we give them California first?
 
2012-11-18 01:55:50 PM  

Frank N Stein: [i.imgur.com image 500x500]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

[25.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]


WTF is wrong with you?
 
2012-11-18 01:56:44 PM  
Without getting into the merits of the public financing this surgery, one thing I feel confident about is this trend will not be significantly spread from San Francisco in 10 years.
 
2012-11-18 01:59:11 PM  
*from them
 
2012-11-18 02:03:48 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: [i.imgur.com image 500x500]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

[25.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

WTF is wrong with you?


Not me, just showcasing their delusions
 
2012-11-18 02:10:05 PM  
Fact of the matter is, you can cosplay all you want. Just don't expect it to be on the public dime.
 
2012-11-18 02:24:31 PM  

Frank N Stein: Fact of the matter is, you can cosplay all you want. Just don't expect it to be on the public dime.


No, that's your opinion. The fact of the matter is actually pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.
The world must be a frustrating place for you.

Dafatone: People suffering from anorexia and bulimia GET MEDICAL TREATMENT, because those are MEDICALLY ACKNOWLEDGED CONDITIONS. Like gender dysmorphia.

If you disagree with San Francisco here, your issue is with the AMA and DSM. They're the ones deciding what is and is not a medical condition.


THIS is the "fact of the matter".
 
2012-11-18 02:32:47 PM  
Because CA is in such great financial state as it is.

/walks away laughing.
 
2012-11-18 02:44:03 PM  

LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: titwrench: LasersHurt: sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.

This is not the same, and you know that. You are a bad person.

Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin. Whether it is a need to change gender or just a need to change your face or body to look a particular way if it is causing psychological damage why isn't it the same. What if someone was born with cleft lip or had a childhood disorder that left them with a minor deformity that caused them distress in their adult life? Are you trying to say they wouldn't deserve the same opportunity to fix it.

I am saying that his "I don't feel handsome enough plz halp" comment was ridiculous. This is not a comment on the actual merits of psychological issues related to appearance, particularly with "real" problems like a cleft pallet or club foot.

There may be an argument to be had about sexual identity or actual deformities - not his "handsomeness" idiocy.

Why not? Society rewards attractiveness. if being homely causes problems for a person psychologically how is there perception of themselves being uncomfortable in their body any less important than someone that feels they need to change their gender? The emotional and mental need is the same.

No, it's not the same. The pressures felt by someone who is "the wrong gender" is NOT AT ALL the same as the pressures one feels to be attractive. The two are not equal.


Exactly. I don't care whether or not I'm the hottest/most graceful/etc. woman; the only thing I care about is living in a body that I can feel comfortable in. I started taking spironolactone on prescription a month ago and already feel more at peace with myself than I ever remember being. I already feel like I can take pride in myself and my home and feel more comfortable around people.

Cosmetic? No, I just want to feel normal and the less of a guy I have to feel like the better.
 
2012-11-18 02:48:39 PM  
Wiener is also the supe who wants ban those nude gay guys in the Castro, kudos for that,

But all the sh*t about SF politics and crazy people is true, that's why the EHTD family moved down the peninsula 15 years ago, to get some sun and away from the craziness that is SF
 
2012-11-18 02:59:09 PM  

Z-clipped: Frank N Stein: Fact of the matter is, you can cosplay all you want. Just don't expect it to be on the public dime.

No, that's your opinion. The fact of the matter is actually pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.
The world must be a frustrating place for you.

Dafatone: People suffering from anorexia and bulimia GET MEDICAL TREATMENT, because those are MEDICALLY ACKNOWLEDGED CONDITIONS. Like gender dysmorphia.

If you disagree with San Francisco here, your issue is with the AMA and DSM. They're the ones deciding what is and is not a medical condition.

THIS is the "fact of the matter".


I'm not sure how anyone could say that and honestly believe it.

The topic at hand isn't whether gender dysmorphia is real or not. If we were debating that, certainly the AMA and DSM would be relevant sources. But we're talking about a particular city deciding to provide surgery for uninsured residents, on the taxpayer's dollar.

The stance of the AMA or DSM is irrelevant when discussing what should and shouldn't be covered types of treatment for a particular medical condition. Very few people are lucky enough to be completely free of medical conditions and many treatments are prohibitively expensive. For example, being near-sighted/far-sighted are both very real medical conditions. That doesn't necessarily mean we hand out free eye-surgery coupons to every resident in the city.

Or maybe it does, if that's your stance on it. But the discussion is whether or not all treatements for all medical conditions should be covered.

The AMA/DSM views on whether gender dysmorphia are real or not is ONLY relevant if you can get everyone to agree that *all treatment* for *all medical conditions defined by the AMA/DSM* should be given to uninsured residents.

That's a huge, huge, huge leap in logic. I'm not claiming it's wrong or bad; if you hold that belief that's fine, I'm sure some people do. It just doesn't seem appropriate to argue that the AMA or DSM is the one to blame here.
 
2012-11-18 03:14:36 PM  

Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?


Probably the part where it isn't necessary. It isn't necessary. You aren't going to just cease living if you don't get to be another gender. If you don't want to pay for it then get over it or go farking kill yourself for all I care.

Luckily this is one thing that I don't ever see moving forward. The backlash would be unbelievable over then what constitutes "medically necessary procedures". I would bet even chunks of the LGBT community would think "....uh, no".
 
2012-11-18 03:32:47 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: The topic at hand isn't whether gender dysmorphia is real or not. If we were debating that, certainly the AMA and DSM would be relevant sources. But we're talking about a particular city deciding to provide surgery for uninsured residents, on the taxpayer's dollar.


Exactly. Specifically, medically necessary surgery.

Fark_Guy_Rob: The stance of the AMA or DSM is irrelevant when discussing what should and shouldn't be covered types of treatment for a particular medical condition.


Nonsense. Those references define current medical consensus. What other reference would take priority when determining which illnesses should be covered? Popular opinion? I think not.

Fark_Guy_Rob: The AMA/DSM views on whether gender dysmorphia are real or not is ONLY relevant if you can get everyone to agree that *all treatment* for *all medical conditions defined by the AMA/DSM* should be given to uninsured residents.


That's a false dichotomy. There are many criteria by which we may decide that an illness is grave enough to require immediate attention and/or public support for treatment.

Fark_Guy_Rob: It just doesn't seem appropriate to argue that the AMA or DSM is the one to blame here.


You've completely misunderstood the context of the post I quoted. Anorexia and bulimia were advanced as life-threatening conditions related to body image. Datafone simply noted that those are covered illnesses, and that, according to the AMA and DSM, gender dysmorphia is at least as grave and "legitimate" a condition. He/she no doubt felt the need to do so because there are numerous knuckle dragging troglodytes int he thread that are desperately trying to pretend that it isn't.

My post was simply drawing attention to the fact that there is an enormous disconnect between reality, and what Frank perceives to be reality.
 
2012-11-18 03:38:14 PM  

ThatDarkFellow: If you don't want to pay for it then get over it or go farking kill yourself for all I care.


Wow.
 
2012-11-18 03:44:40 PM  

Z-clipped: ThatDarkFellow: If you don't want to pay for it then get over it or go farking kill yourself for all I care.

Wow.


Compassionate conservativism!
 
2012-11-18 03:46:01 PM  
Fark_Guy_Rob

You make some good points. SF isn't covering all medicine for all citizens or anything. But many of the complaints in this thread are about how gender reassignment surgery isn't "necessary", or is "cosmetic." I'm pointing out that medicine disagrees.
 
2012-11-18 03:51:27 PM  

SnarfVader: I'll just leave this little gem from the article here:

That's about to change thanks in large part to advocacy from the city's Transgender Law Center and Supervisor Scott Wiener


Formerly Stacy Beaver
 
2012-11-18 03:54:58 PM  

Theaetetus: Jim_Callahan: Yeah... no. No, we won't.

I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself. Hell, some national single-payer for basic care would be nice. But pay for your elective cosmetic surgery out of your own damned wages like everyone else.

It's not, however, "elective cosmetic surgery", but a necessary medical procedure, according to the AMA and DSM. If San Francisco is going to cover necessary medical procedures for uninsured residents, then it should cover all such necessary medical procedures, and not second-guess doctors. None of this "oh, sure, your doctor claims you need surgery, but I'm an elected public official with a law degree, so therefore I know more about medicine" bullshiat like you're suggesting.


At least we agree that transsexuals have mental problems
 
2012-11-18 04:06:36 PM  
shouldn't this be in 'Politics'??
 
2012-11-18 04:17:03 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm in favor of LGBT rights as much as the next godless hippy librul, but using tax payer money to fund a non-life sustaining operation is not a good use of funds in my view. With the huge homeless problem in The City, how could anyone in good conscious be in favor of this?


This is a life-sustaining operation, per current medical research and best practices.
 
2012-11-18 04:31:24 PM  

Simplicity: My thoughts too. Also add in California's and San Francisco's inability to pay it's bills.



I would like to point out that CA is on track to have a Surplus and SF has never had an 'inability to pay it's bills,' even through the worst of CA's fiscal issues. Hey how about all the states rights' and spending decisions need to be made locally folks stand up for something like this in principle even if you don't agree with the premise?


I work in the CA legal industry. The state is deeply in debt, to the point where they fired all the court reporters at county courthouses a couple weeks ago, and they are starting to look at mass-firings of other court staff like clerks. California as a whole does not have a dime to spare.

San Francisco, on the other hand, has nearly the highest tax rate in the country, mostly to pay for social programs like this. It's a beautiful town, with admirable values, but they are crushing their middle-class citizens to give their income to the lower class and upper class.
 
2012-11-18 04:50:48 PM  
The discrimination was particularly blatant in that the department provides and covers hysterectomies for women with cancer, but not for women who choose to transition to men. Likewise, it provides and covers the removal of testicles for men with cancer, but not for men transitioning to women.

So if you don't want your balls removed, they're gone. This is definitely the least empathetic argument you can make in favor of transsexual surgery.
 
2012-11-18 04:51:46 PM  

ThatDarkFellow: Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?

Probably the part where it isn't necessary. It isn't necessary. You aren't going to just cease living if you don't get to be another gender. If you don't want to pay for it then get over it or go farking kill yourself for all I care.


Now, I'm not a doctor. I don't presume to have a medical degree. I don't claim to be the final arbiter of whether a medical procedure is necessary or not.
... where's your medical degree from?
 
2012-11-18 04:52:50 PM  

Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: [i.imgur.com image 500x500]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

[25.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

WTF is wrong with you?

Not me, just showcasing their delusions posts of trolls that are at odds with every other post on the site.


Thing is, I thought you were better at trolling than that.
 
2012-11-18 04:59:59 PM  
♬ I'm confident that it can be done in California
I'm confident that it can be done, because I did it, in California
I'm confident that it can be done in California
In San Francisco
...
the future doesn't belong to the faint hearted, it belongs to the brave ♬
 
2012-11-18 05:19:55 PM  

Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: Theaetetus: Frank N Stein: [i.imgur.com image 500x500]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

[25.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

WTF is wrong with you?

Not me, just showcasing their delusions posts of trolls that are at odds with every other post on the site.

Thing is, I thought you were better at trolling than that.


There's many examples of batshiat insane rants on that sight.
 
2012-11-18 05:37:26 PM  

Snapper Carr: What about a child born with a cleft palate whose parent's are too poor to afford the procedure?


I can't believe you think they are the same thing. You can't hide a cleft palate, it's on your face, it's an obvious deformity, your mouth can't operate correctly unless it's fixed, and it's not something you would ever want to reverse or regret doing.

The world has enough people in it and the last thing we need to do is subsidize mentally ill people mutilating themselves. If they want to do it they have that right, but we don't have to pretend that chopping your penis off makes you a woman. Fixing a cleft palate fixes the problem, mentally ill people that cut off parts of their body still have the same brain they started with. It's sad that they were born that way and may kill themselves, but it's hard to argue that it isn't natural selection at work.

/nature is cruel
//you can't save everyone
 
2012-11-18 05:46:19 PM  

Bomb Mecca: I can't believe you think they are the same thing. You can't hide a cleft palate, it's on your face, it's an obvious deformity, your mouth can't operate correctly unless it's fixed, and it's not something you would ever want to reverse or regret doing.


I didn't say that both conditions are the same. Both surgeries are, however, medically accepted
treatments for their respective conditions. The original poster's position was "I'm all for public money going to keeping you from dying, or developing a disease that prevents you from supporting yourself". The cleft palate example would not meet his criteria for something that should be publicly subsidized - hence the question.
 
2012-11-18 05:49:45 PM  

Bomb Mecca: The world has enough people in it and the last thing we need to do is subsidize mentally ill people mutilating themselves. If they want to do it they have that right, but we don't have to pretend that chopping your penis off makes you a woman. Fixing a cleft palate fixes the problem, mentally ill people that cut off parts of their body still have the same brain they started with. It's sad that they were born that way and may kill themselves, but it's hard to argue that it isn't natural selection at work.


Actual medicine disagrees with you. Let's leave actual medicine to actual doctors.
 
2012-11-18 07:28:09 PM  
It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly? Aside from whining about "your money" doing this-and-that, which is getting pretty old.
 
xcv
2012-11-18 07:41:10 PM  

Dafatone:
Let's leave actual medicine to actual doctors it to the people getting paid at every step of the way.

 
2012-11-18 07:50:48 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly?


Oh, oh! We're getting closer..
 
2012-11-18 07:55:43 PM  

sage37: My fat ass and giant ears give me body dysmorphia, so I am suicidal and a drug abuser. I'm just convinced in my heart that I truly am handsome. Please pay for my surgery. It's the only way I can feel comfortable as a human.


If you jump through the equivalent hoops and mandatory years of psychiatric counseling a transgender patient has to go through before their surgery becomes medically approved, then I'll be in-favor of your surgery being covered as well.

Sounds like you're assuming there's no standard of proof beyond walking into a doctor's office and proclaiming, "I'm transgendered. Fix me." That may be the case if the surgery's done in one of the cash clinics in Thailand, but in the US and Canada at least, it's a multi-year process and surgery's almost the last step.

/Read up after making my first transgendered friend.
//If your dysmorphia had you needing a healthy arm or leg removed, well that's the line where I get uncomfortable. So do most doctors, I hear.
 
2012-11-18 08:13:42 PM  
I can always rely on FARK comments to remind me why I should never trust a non transgender person in my life.

Even the gay community is unsupportive of transpeople unless we act and dress like drag queens or bull dykes.

My advice to fellow trans people? Live stealth, tell only the people you know you can trust and make sure to discuss it with your partner before you get too serious.

I wear it on my sleeve for the most part. And I must pass pretty well since I've been getting flirted up and hit on when I'm out a lot lately~
 
2012-11-18 08:29:42 PM  

Frank N Stein: [i.imgur.com image 500x500]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

[25.media.tumblr.com image 400x400]


WTF is this? *looks it up*

OK, this site can't be real. What does this even mean?

img850.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-18 09:06:43 PM  

Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?


I am as liberal as anyone, but even I think this is retarded.

What about the girl that gets bullied for her big nose, to the point where she is suicidal? Should she get a free nose job?

How about instead of expensive, often times ineffective at alleviating the problem, surgery, we instead find out what is causing it? As a link above says, transsexuals are often more suicidal after the surgery.
 
2012-11-18 09:23:42 PM  

machoprogrammer: Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?

I am as liberal as anyone, but even I think this is retarded.

What about the girl that gets bullied for her big nose, to the point where she is suicidal? Should she get a free nose job?

How about instead of expensive, often times ineffective at alleviating the problem, surgery, we instead find out what is causing it? As a link above says, transsexuals are often more suicidal after the surgery.


The above link says that post-op transsexuals are more likely to be suicidal than non-trans people. Not more likely to be suicidal than pre-op. Basically, it means nothing.

If medical experts decide that big nose-ism is a medical condition, then we will deal with that. Until then, this is about the city of San Francisco deciding to pay for medically approved treatment for a medical condition, for its citizens.
 
2012-11-18 09:54:31 PM  

machoprogrammer: Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?

I am as liberal as anyone, but even I think this is retarded.

What about the girl that gets bullied for her big nose, to the point where she is suicidal? Should she get a free nose job?

How about instead of expensive, often times ineffective at alleviating the problem, surgery, we instead find out what is causing it? As a link above says, transsexuals are often more suicidal after the surgery.


Maybe if people like you would stop harassing, belittling, insulting, and attacking them for not conforming to your personal views, they wouldn't have so many problems.
 
2012-11-18 10:33:00 PM  

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: But all the sh*t about SF politics and crazy people is true, that's why the EHTD family moved down the peninsula 15 years ago, to get some sun and away from the craziness that is SF


You must miss the human feces & urine, unless you still work in the City.

/ah, coming up out of the Muni/BART station at the Embarcadero, which is Spanish for "stinks like pee"... or it should be, in any case
 
2012-11-18 11:16:31 PM  
"A lot of times, people roll their eyes and say, 'Only in San Francisco', and then 10 years later, they're doing the same thing"

That's entirely correct. And it's a big reason why the US is going down the tubes. Just because the rest of the country follows a lot of California/San Francisco ideas, don't mean any of those ideas area good.
 
2012-11-18 11:40:32 PM  

Lsherm: WTF is this? *looks it up*

OK, this site can't be real. What does this even mean?

[img850.imageshack.us image 400x400]


A female-to-male transsexual who is also gay--he likes guys and considers himself to be a guy--is complaining about gay guys who assume just because he has a vagina that he's a bottom.
 
2012-11-18 11:47:59 PM  
What does it mean to feel like a female? Honestly I don't know. What does it feel to be a man? I don't know that either. All I know is I was brought up to accept the set of genitalia that I was born with.

I am more the opposite sex then the one that I am. But I am married to the opposite sex then I am. I learned to accept me for me and that I am what I am. I have no desire to cut anything off. I can be who I am and dress how I see fit.

Cuttin it off or adding it on doesn't change whats upstairs. If you can't accept how you were born that's where the work is. I feel sorry for anyone that can't accept themselves.
 
2012-11-18 11:50:21 PM  
I guess people in this thread just believe that I should kill myself. I think about it all the time, anyway. And after all, it's natural selection.

I don't want to hurt or annoy anyone. I just want to not hate myself anymore. I want to get out of bed on weekends, rather than lie here to cry and sleep all day. I want to stop wishing for my own death.

/hugs 0z79
 
2012-11-18 11:52:58 PM  

Myria: Lsherm: WTF is this? *looks it up*

OK, this site can't be real. What does this even mean?

[img850.imageshack.us image 400x400]

A female-to-male transsexual who is also gay--he likes guys and considers himself to be a guy--is complaining about gay guys who assume just because he has a vagina that he's a bottom.


Even with that explanation, it still barely makes sense. He wants vaginal sex but only on top? Otherwise, what the hell is he talking about?
 
2012-11-18 11:53:45 PM  
All I can say is that... You have the time and the money for this?

Here's a wild idea. Instead of covering peoples elective procedures you could spend that money on HIV/AIDS research or cancer or heart disease.

I'm also totally sure that your city infrastructure and schools could use it more.
 
2012-11-18 11:56:07 PM  

Myria: I guess people in this thread just believe that I should kill myself. I think about it all the time, anyway. And after all, it's natural selection.

I don't want to hurt or annoy anyone. I just want to not hate myself anymore. I want to get out of bed on weekends, rather than lie here to cry and sleep all day. I want to stop wishing for my own death.

/hugs 0z79


No hon, you take care of yourself, you deserve happiness, find a good therapist to work with and start dealing with what you've been dealt. Are you on hormones yet? It make a world of difference from what I've heard ; )
 
2012-11-18 11:58:31 PM  

Lsherm: Even with that explanation, it still barely makes sense. He wants vaginal sex but only on top? Otherwise, what the hell is he talking about?


I think he means that he wants to use a strap-on to be the dominant top in a gay male relationship.
 
2012-11-18 11:59:26 PM  

randomjsa: All I can say is that... You have the time and the money for this?

Here's a wild idea. Instead of covering peoples elective procedures you could spend that money on HIV/AIDS research or cancer or heart disease.

I'm also totally sure that your city infrastructure and schools could use it more.


So can can we stop building bombs and missiles since there are other pressing problem. Dumb ass troll society can handle lots of things all at once.
 
2012-11-19 12:03:07 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: No hon, you take care of yourself, you deserve happiness, find a good therapist to work with and start dealing with what you've been dealt. Are you on hormones yet? It make a world of difference from what I've heard ; )


I've been seeing a shrink and therapist for years now, and have been on hormones for four and a half years. Despite all that, I still look like a guy.

It's not worth even trying anymore. My mind is destroyed at this point.
 
2012-11-19 12:11:57 AM  

Myria: Lsherm: Even with that explanation, it still barely makes sense. He wants vaginal sex but only on top? Otherwise, what the hell is he talking about?

I think he means that he wants to use a strap-on to be the dominant top in a gay male relationship.


OK, then it's all just sad. There's a woman who wants to be a gay man, presents as a gay man, and is irritated because she doesn't have a dick yet.
 
2012-11-19 12:15:14 AM  

Myria: tinfoil-hat maggie: No hon, you take care of yourself, you deserve happiness, find a good therapist to work with and start dealing with what you've been dealt. Are you on hormones yet? It make a world of difference from what I've heard ; )

I've been seeing a shrink and therapist for years now, and have been on hormones for four and a half years. Despite all that, I still look like a guy.

It's not worth even trying anymore. My mind is destroyed at this point.


I know it's difficult, I know it's gotta be but did you feel better after you got on hormones? Somewhat? Have you finished electrolysis? I know it's all expensive but I'm not sure what you mean by "My mind is destroyed at this point"
 
2012-11-19 12:17:36 AM  

Wasilla Hillbilly: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism


You might not realize this, but linking to sexchangeregret.com to back up some opinion about transsexualism is like linking to the Westboro Baptist Church website to prove a point about homosexuality.
 
2012-11-19 12:21:00 AM  

thisiszombocom: i was not buttfarking or been buttfarked by some guy 10 years ago, now, nor will i in the future. keep to yourself san frangayco.


And again, like in almost every thread about lbgtq issues, we see the guy who INSISTS he isn't gay but just LOVES to talk about the buttsex.

Why are you so obsessed about anal sex? Nobody was talking about anal sex until YOU brought it up.
 
2012-11-19 12:28:16 AM  

ciberido: thisiszombocom: i was not buttfarking or been buttfarked by some guy 10 years ago, now, nor will i in the future. keep to yourself san frangayco.

And again, like in almost every thread about lbgtq issues, we see the guy who INSISTS he isn't gay but just LOVES to talk about the buttsex.

Why are you so obsessed about anal sex? Nobody was talking about anal sex until YOU brought it up.


So true, hmmm, I wondering if I should post pictures : )
 
2012-11-19 01:11:02 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly? Aside from whining about "your money" doing this-and-that, which is getting pretty old.


Books have been written trying to answer that question. Wikipedia has an entry or two that cover some aspects. But to try to answer briefly, I think it goes something like this:

1) People want their world to be simple and predictable.
2) People want/expect men to be masculine and women to be feminine
3) Men are considered to be superior to women (in most societies)

"Men who want to be women" defies all of these. It's surprising, confusing, defies the simple binary people want and expect, and it challenges the idea that men are superior to women (why would a man want to be an inferior being?).

You notice that people don't seem quite as nonplussed by female-to-male transsexuals. For all that it violates "the natural order of things," at least it makes more sense for a woman to want to be a man than for a man to want to be a woman, since it's so much better to be a man. 

/It SHOULD go without saying, but this being Fark, I'm obligated to point out that I am describing a cultural point of view, not my own personal opinion.
 
2012-11-19 01:26:22 AM  

Myria: I've been seeing a shrink and therapist for years now, and have been on hormones for four and a half years. Despite all that, I still look like a guy.

It's not worth even trying anymore. My mind is destroyed at this point.


I think I may have said something like this in another thread but it bears repeating.

Being able to pass may not prove to be the Holy Grail you think it is. Some transsexuals who had SRS years ago report that they worry a lot less about whether or not they'll be "read" (identified as transsexual) than they used to. I've heard a transsexual say, "It just doesn't bother me when people read me like it used to."

I do have a few transgender friends (well, some of them are more like acquaintances, but still). Some of them pass so we'll you'd never guess in a million years that they were trans. Some of the mtfs have every problem you can imagine: six feet tall, big Adam's Apple, deep masculine voice, you name it. But they're HAPPY.

If you're already seeing therapists then I don't know what else I can tell you. Talk to other trans people, if you're not already doing this. I just think you are obsessing over the things you can't change and not focus on what things you CAN do.
 
2012-11-19 01:55:46 AM  

Theaetetus: Now, I'm not a doctor. I don't presume to have a medical degree. I don't claim to be the final arbiter of whether a medical procedure is necessary or not.
... where's your medical degree from?


I doubt you'll have trouble finding a doctor who would recommend against gender surgery. I don't think you'll even have to look outside the Bay Area.
 
2012-11-19 02:00:23 AM  

Simplicity: I would like to point out that CA is on track to have a Surplus


In what alternate dimension?
 
2012-11-19 02:42:33 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly? Aside from whining about "your money" doing this-and-that, which is getting pretty old.


And the fact that you're so dismissive about people being concerned with what happens with their money is a perfect example of why this nation is on the verge of Soviet style collapse. It is "our money" and we have every god damn right in the world to demand it be used how we see fit. Go pay for your own life and lifestyle.
 
2012-11-19 04:49:34 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I know it's difficult, I know it's gotta be but did you feel better after you got on hormones? Somewhat? Have you finished electrolysis? I know it's all expensive but I'm not sure what you mean by "My mind is destroyed at this point"


Hormones have given me a more peaceful feeling; I feel much more like myself. They've also let me think about having a relationship with someone, whereas previously, I didn't want anyone to touch me.

Hormones have actually increased my gender dysphoria. I feel more strongly female, but that makes the disconnect between inside and outside that much larger.

I've had laser hair removal, and now am doing electrolysis to get what's left. It seems to be working decently; I don't have to shave or pluck anymore.
 
2012-11-19 08:05:18 AM  
where's my multiple baseball world series wins and 5 superbowls?!
 
2012-11-19 09:03:23 AM  

machoprogrammer: Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?

I am as liberal as anyone, but even I think this is retarded.

What about the girl that gets bullied for her big nose, to the point where she is suicidal? Should she get a free nose job?

How about instead of expensive, often times ineffective at alleviating the problem, surgery, we instead find out what is causing it? As a link above says, transsexuals are often more suicidal after the surgery.


No link above says anything like that, and several studies have found the exact opposite.
 
2012-11-19 09:35:46 AM  

Myria: It's not worth even trying anymore. My mind is destroyed at this point.


Don't give up Myria, you'll get there. The world is a better place with you in it. Build yourself a circle where you feel safe. The confidence will come. And remember... everyone, cisgendered people included, see awful things that in the mirror that no one else notices.
 
2012-11-19 10:39:39 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: machoprogrammer: Theaetetus: machoprogrammer: titwrench: Why not? There are people that have a psychological need to change their appearance and suffer in their own skin.

There are countless men out there who feel they aren't muscular enough. Should the government pay for their steroids, too?

There are countless women out there who feel they don't have big enough boobs/ass. Should the government foot that bill, too?

Are those countless men and women depressed to the point of being suicidal? Then, yes, the government should. What is it about "medically necessary procedure" you don't understand?

I am as liberal as anyone, but even I think this is retarded.

What about the girl that gets bullied for her big nose, to the point where she is suicidal? Should she get a free nose job?

How about instead of expensive, often times ineffective at alleviating the problem, surgery, we instead find out what is causing it? As a link above says, transsexuals are often more suicidal after the surgery.

Maybe if people like you would stop harassing, belittling, insulting, and attacking them for not conforming to your personal views, they wouldn't have so many problems.


Please tell me when I ever harassed, belittled, insulted or attacked a transsexual? I would like to know. Or, am I suddenly a transsexual-phobe because I don't think the government should pay for sex change operations?
 
2012-11-20 03:52:51 PM  

randomjsa: All I can say is that... You have the time and the money for this?

Here's a wild idea. Instead of covering peoples elective procedures you could spend that money on HIV/AIDS research or cancer or heart disease.

I'm also totally sure that your city infrastructure and schools could use it more.


Multi-tasking. It's real. People do it all the time.

Why do dipshiats like you act like it's an impossible ability?
 
2012-11-20 03:55:55 PM  

ciberido: Keizer_Ghidorah: It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly? Aside from whining about "your money" doing this-and-that, which is getting pretty old.

Books have been written trying to answer that question. Wikipedia has an entry or two that cover some aspects. But to try to answer briefly, I think it goes something like this:

1) People want their world to be simple and predictable.
2) People want/expect men to be masculine and women to be feminine
3) Men are considered to be superior to women (in most societies)

"Men who want to be women" defies all of these. It's surprising, confusing, defies the simple binary people want and expect, and it challenges the idea that men are superior to women (why would a man want to be an inferior being?).

You notice that people don't seem quite as nonplussed by female-to-male transsexuals. For all that it violates "the natural order of things," at least it makes more sense for a woman to want to be a man than for a man to want to be a woman, since it's so much better to be a man. 

/It SHOULD go without saying, but this being Fark, I'm obligated to point out that I am describing a cultural point of view, not my own personal opinion.


Because America is obsessed with "manly" things and "becoming a man". Very few whine and complain about women wearing pants or having jobs that were once male-dominated. There's little mocking of girls that play with Transformers or play Call of Duty. But when it's reversed, oh shiat the insainty explodes.
 
2012-11-20 07:50:34 PM  

machoprogrammer: Please tell me when I ever harassed, belittled, insulted or attacked a transsexual? I would like to know. Or, am I suddenly a transsexual-phobe because I don't think the government should pay for sex change operations?


I don't think that anyone would accuse you of personally harassing, belittling, insulting, or attacking transsexuals.

However, it seems that you are actively trying to fight against something that you have no good reason to fight, by insisting over and over again that something isn't true when the growing body of scientific evidence is that it is. You're acting like the fellows who get into the Fark climate change threads and insist over and over again that Global Warming/Climate Change isn't happening. It's not just that you are most likely in the wrong, scientifically, speaking, but it is interesting that you care about the subject so deeply that you post against it over and over and over. It does make one wonder why you are so passionately opposed to something that does not in the slightest affect you personally.
 
2012-11-20 07:56:19 PM  

taurusowner: Keizer_Ghidorah: It's amazing how this subject makes so many people angry and afraid for... what reason, exactly? Aside from whining about "your money" doing this-and-that, which is getting pretty old.

And the fact that you're so dismissive about people being concerned with what happens with their money is a perfect example of why this nation is on the verge of Soviet style collapse. It is "our money" and we have every god damn right in the world to demand it be used how we see fit. Go pay for your own life and lifestyle.


Except that very often when people who rail about "it's my money and I don't want it wasted on this nonsense," they are, in point of fact, SAVING money. Which means it's a smokescreen.

Case in point: the death penalty. People will rant and rave about how "stupid" it is to "waste money on keeping this scum alive" right up until you point out that the capital punishment COSTS MORE MONEY than keeping someone in life imprisonment. Then, ASTONISHINGLY, instead of going, "Oh, in that case, let's do away with capital punishment, they turn around and say, "Um, well, it's not really about money."

So, I'm sorry, but it;s hard to take you seriously when you claim that it's about saving money when the policy you're decrying is actually the one that would save money.
 
Displayed 136 of 136 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report