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(Daily Mail)   Cute California couple go to Ghana to adopt four children, get put in jail, accused of child trafficking. Awkward   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 58
    More: Asinine, Ghana, child trafficking, second mortgages, KCAL-TV, foster homes  
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18258 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2012 at 6:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-11-18 06:55:51 AM
5 votes:
That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.
2012-11-18 07:03:03 AM
3 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


I was going to say something similar, but then I saw the kids faces. Somebody has to get lucky, why not them?
2012-11-18 01:14:44 PM
2 votes:

GizmoToy: Contrast that with my aunt and uncle, who are biologically unable to have their own kids. They tried desperately for probably about 10 years to adopt a child, without success. Dozens of home visits. Pop-ins at the office. Background checks, full asset review, interviewing neighbors, current co-workers, former co-workers, family, casual acquaintances... the process is more involved than what I went through to get a security clearance. In the end, the problem was mainly financial. They own a nice rural home outright, two cars, stable jobs, the usual stuff, but they're no ...


I've adopted domestically and did not experience any of that hassle. The home visit was nothing more than to verify I wasn't running a meth lab. I had a background check to verify I wasn't a sex offender and a few tax returns. Never had anyone come to my office or talk to my neighbors. Either it is a different standards due to state laws or they used a crappy agency or lawyer.
2012-11-18 09:04:10 AM
2 votes:
It's not a charity. Adoption should not be seen as helping those "poor children"; it's a way for families who decide not to have, possibly additional, biological children. Mrs. Salts and I have a wonderful son who joined our family through domestic adoption. Our process took a year and a half mostly due to our laziness on filling out paperwork. Every adoption story is unique and like everything in life adoptive parent(s) will have obstacles to overcome.
2012-11-18 07:49:04 AM
2 votes:
Fark websites with autoplaying videos, particularly when they hide the video off of the initial screen and you have to go hunting for it to turn it off.
2012-11-18 07:10:21 AM
2 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.
2012-11-18 07:07:30 AM
2 votes:
They forgot to bribe every official involved in the transaction. :(
2012-11-19 07:34:08 AM
1 votes:

jaytkay: Honest Bender: ou aren't making a "significant" improvement to the world by helping just one person.

Sure it would be great if every couple created a program to help thousands or millions of kids.

Let us know how you are accomplishing that. TIA!!


I'm not. But what bearing does that have on things? Sounds like you're just trying to throw sour grapes back in my face. Well, the only difference between me and the gentleman with the special needs child is that I'm not making spurious claims.
2012-11-18 10:36:28 PM
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Alas, there's a reason there IS a long wait:


Excellent, excellent post with many valid points. Thank-you. I have a prejudice against private adoptions due to this history. I refused to participate in an attorney facilitated adoption. Nor would I deal with a for-profit adoption agency. Thankfully, there are not many of those. Though I am Christian, I rejected all Christians only agencies in favor of an agency that was seeking loving parents regardless of whether they were Christian. I also like that our adoption agency had required parenting classes wherein alternatives to spanking were taught. They made it clear that they did not approve of corporal punishment.

You might be interested to know that Vietnam was closed due to the criminal actions of a single adoption agency. But these folks aren't gone. They have repeatedly reopened with a new name and have done damage in Eastern Europe, Vietnam, and are now reported to be operating in Africa. I do not know what name they are currently operating under.

One of things this group does is take families on incredibly expensive trips to countries that have adoption agreements with the US without having a child assigned to that family. They tell these vulnerable infertile couples "If you were pregnant you wouldn't know exactly when your child would be born or the health of the child. You don't know when or where your child will be or even if she will be missing an arm." Couples are drug around a foreign country looking for the child that is "theirs". I suspect it is so the weepy couple will generate sympathy among locals who might otherwise treat the group much more harshly.

This trip in pursuit of a child scam is a giant red flag. You will be notified that a child is available months before you travel. You will be provided a photo and sometimes a video. You never, never, never travel to "find" a child.
2012-11-18 10:15:07 PM
1 votes:

namegoeshere: Oldiron_79: Why do yuppies wanna go all the way to Africa to adopt a black kid? There are plenty of black kids here in the US that need adopting.

African black kids are trendy, like little Chinese girls used to be.


When a person adopts internationally, that person must satisfy all requirements of the adoption agency, the county, the state, the United States and the sending country. When we were planning to adopt, we could not have adopted from China or Haiti. Chinese officials deemed us too young. Per Haitian standards, we were too old. Each country creates adoption standards based on that cultures perception of what constitutes an ideal parent. Sometimes a country your church friend adopted from no longer allows international adoption. There are many reasons why more or fewer children might be adopted from a particular region of the world. One of the things you have to do as an adoptive parent is figure out which country you are eligible to adopt from.
2012-11-18 10:09:27 PM
1 votes:

jigger: Errk: How much were they going to sell them for?

The black ones don't go for much.


I can't believe the number of people I'm dropping into ignore on an adoption thread. What the hell is wrong with you people?
2012-11-18 10:06:45 PM
1 votes:

queen biatch of the universe: StashMonster: In general I object to the attitude that a lot of people seem to have about having children. It isn't like getting a puppy or a kitten. I don't have any sympathy for people complaining that two years is too long to wait so they "need" to adopt overseas. Why not sponser a child instead? Then a child living in a poor country can have a decent education and some of the money goes to its community too.

There are also lots of kids that need decent foster homes. Sometimes people can go on to adopt, I think.

I am not against kids getting a nice family to care for them, it just seems that too many people see children as some kind of life-enhancing accessory that they insist on having just when THEY want on their terms. People making a big fuss about wanting to adopt, and people having test tube babies, are an extension of the people who have the "life plan" where they plan to have X many babies at such-a-time.

Something about thinking like that about human life creeps me out. I know I'm not explaining it very well but it is just this deep-down feeling that I have. I always thought like that, and it got really creepy for a while when I had my daughter at the age of 24. I got pressurised to have an abortion by the family planning clinic (even though that is illegal), even got hassled by the midwife while I was giving birth about being "too young". Then for a few years on all her paperwork it was stated that she was "unplanned", and people asked about that again and again. It IS apparently relevant as it is a predictor of various things, but the way people said it made it obvious that they equated this with being an "accident" or "mistake" in some way.

It just made it REALLY clear to me that we live in a society where kids are seen as a choice like having a dog. I nearly had the abortion they tried to railroad me into and the compulsory "counselling" seemed to consist of being told not to talk about it because "everyone does it and you will cope better". I am ...


I consider your post to be strikingly brave and touching. You have suffered so much and you seem so strong. As you do seem to want to a child, I hope someday you find a way to create a family that is right for you. Whatever your situation may have been in the past, it sounds like you would be a great parent. With or without parenthood, I hope your life from here on is jam packed with joy and peace.
2012-11-18 10:00:49 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: So what happens when the international child you adopt turns out to be a "special needs" child? (Or do special needs children only exist in Western countries?). Do you send it back as defective merchandise?

A lot of "special needs" are invisible, or don't really manifest themselves until the child become older and its brain develops. Because the adoption process is expedited for international adoptions, there's absolutely no guarantee that the child you get will be "perfect". At least with domestic special needs adoptions, you've got an inkling of what's to come.


Before you adopt either domestically or internationally, read a stack of books. Read, read and read some more. Then visit more than one adoption agency. They are required to give orientation/information sessions. It is astounding how many people only go to one. This is the most important thing you will ever do. Go to more than one agency. Make sure you choose an ethical agency.

If you have chosen your agency well, one of the first things you will be told is that international adoption does not mean zero chance of special needs. As you've noted many medical problems can not be immediately detected. The agency should review with prospective parents the most likely health issues and provide suggestions for contending with them. One of the things I did in preparation was to choose a pediatrician who was an international disease specialist. She was a fabulous resource in more ways than one. She even gave me advice that helped me to successfully breastfeed both my birth child and my adopted child.

Fewer than 2% of adoptions fail. In my mind that is 2% too many. I have read that adoption failure is more likely when special needs are involved regardless of whether the child is adopted domestically or internationally. Apparently, a few well meaning folks get so caught up in a narrative wherein they are going to save a child, they fail to realize their own limitations. With adoption, it is exceedingly important that you know yourself, understand your relationship with your partner, and you must be brutally honest with yourself. Adoption is no time to play hero because a child may be harmed if parents aren't self-aware.
2012-11-18 09:48:47 PM
1 votes:

GizmoToy: The commitment is ongoing to this day, over 25-some years later. Consider the possibility of having a dependent who perpetually has the needs of young child, and the problems that brings. I don't feel wrong in saying that not everyone is cut out for that kind of sacrifice. I honestly think the number of parents who would be good at it is exceedingly small, and those parents seek out special needs children. I strongly suspect that suggesting someone who wants a healthy child should "settle" for one with special needs, as many people here are proposing, is a recipe for disaster. Having any kid is a sacrifice, but without experiencing it I don't think they truly have any idea what having a special needs child entails.


I suspect most of the people on the thread with this "they should have ..." attitude are not parents at all. It is easy to be a perfect parent when you don't have children.
2012-11-18 09:42:37 PM
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: jaytkay: Apparently some nice people adopted some cute kids.

They bought human beings from a foreign country to use them as pets in the US.

Look, man, adoption is great, but the reason it takes some time and money to do it domestically is that third world "adoption" is straight-up slave-trading nine times in ten. It's cheap because when you don't even have to prove that it's your kid to sell it your costs are pretty low.

Bribing a judge to sign a "no, it's totally legit" paper doesn't necessarily make it actually legit, especially since you are supposed to satisfy three sets of laws in an international adoption: the origin country's laws, the end country's laws, and international laws. You don't get a whole lot of sympathy for only barely maybe managing one out of three.


The highest single expense in our adoption was paying the fees required by the United States government. The fees paid to the non-profit adoption agency allowed them to maintain staff and stay open to provide services to other families. No payments were made to anyone in country. Our childs' birthmother received no benefit what so ever.

I don't know who you're hanging out with that is traveling overseas and buying children from people that can't even prove the child is theirs to sell, but you need to drop these friends and upgrade your social life.
2012-11-18 09:35:47 PM
1 votes:

queen biatch of the universe: Wodan11: jtown: It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.

Yeah, tell these folks that.

Endive Wombat: So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be

All well and good, but the problem is that this funds additional child trafficking and the practice of having kids for money. Girls will get pregnant simply because they know they can get a cool $10k US for it (or whatever).

Also kidnapping, there are absolutely heartbreaking stories from mothers in China who have had their young children (usually sub-3 years old) kidnapped by either strangers or some they knew and sold to baby brokers. Most either end up being adopted by other Chinese couples or sold into international adoption agencies who don't care to check the kid's background since there is a lot of money to be made off of western couples wanting a Chinese baby/kid. This is not just a Chinese problem - lots of children in the international adoption system come kidnapped children. More countries are clamping down on international adoption or tightening their adoption standards due to past abuses or other factors. This is fueling the underground black market adoption since some people have their hearts set on a child from a specific country. Whether they mean to or not, waving a bunch of money around in a poor country with a corruption problems is going to create the perfect storm of less than ethical behavior in getting these parents the child they want. It is absolutely tragic that their are people in the western ...


There was not even a legal procedure in place to adopt domestically in China until 1992. The Chinese government had begun, however, to promote the notion of domestic adoption. They have also transitioned from one couple - one child to one couple - one son or two children. It is almost unheard of for a first born daughter to be surrendered now.
2012-11-18 09:20:23 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


While domestic adoption is certainly possible, it is more complicated than most people realize. Every state has it's own adoption laws and regulations. Adopting across states involves some interstate thingy about transporting people across state lines. I can't think of the proper term right now, but you know what I'm talking about. Some states will not allow anyone from out of state to adopt. Other states will allow parents from out of state to adopt certain children, but other children must be placed with a family within their current county, that's county not state, of residence.

When we were prepping to adopt, our state had not one child who was not categorized as special needs available for adoption under the age of 8. I visited special needs sites and was struck by how incredibly medically fragile many of these children were. Taking them on would not have been parenting. It would have been nursing: round the clock nursing in an in-home critical care facility.

Other children that were sturdier medically, frequently had comments in their files that said things like "Not recommended for placement in a home with younger children." "Not recommended for placement in a home with animals." or my personal 'favorite' "Not recommended for placement in a home with younger children, animals, or the elderly." I remind you, this was a site for special needs children. Please, don't think this example is represents the state of all domestic adoption.

In my state, there are usually more black children available for adoption than children representing other races. DFACS workers in this state have extreme opposition to allowing white couples to adopt black children. I have friends who adopted and have/are raising black children. Each and every one of these couples had to go to another state to accomplish that.

I also know couples who adopted newborns domestically. If you're interested in that at all, my advice would be don't bother calling your local government. Look in the phone book and call adoption agencies. Look for an agency that allows birthmothers to choose the adoptive parents from a book of perspective parents. Ideally, you want an agency that provides the birthmother grief counseling following the adoption because she will grieve. You want an agency that is clear that mother has xx amount of time to resume custody of her child and you want an agency that stands behind her right to do so. It seems counter intuitive, but it helps ensure that adoptive parents are not complicit in exploitation and that the child they take into their home truly needs a home.

That was very important to us. We have no fertility issues and I was pregnant when we began the adoption process. It was very important to us that we adopt a child willingly placed and in true need of a home. At that time, I had the rather illogical feeling that adopting domestically would somehow be "taking a child away from an infertile couple". We adopted internationally. We have met our child's birthmother. We returned to the country years ago with the entire family and visited her and her family. I write and send her photographs on a regular basis. She writes us as well which must be incredibly difficult for her. We send small, relatively worthless Christmas gifts. Sometimes we'd like to send something nice, but we're too afraid someone will think we're "making a payment." Holding back is hard because it feels like this woman on the other side of the world is family.

If you want to delve further, adoptivefamilies.com is a great source of information.
2012-11-18 05:43:28 PM
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Even China--which probably has the most lax regs internationally in international adoption of healthy babies as long as they're girls--requires a process that can take the better part of a year, and even IT is not "I plunk down $200,000 and get healthy Chinese babby".


I hear China has tightened right the fark up, too. Hence African babbies being the new go-to.
2012-11-18 04:47:14 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: So what happens when the international child you adopt turns out to be a "special needs" child? (Or do special needs children only exist in Western countries?). Do you send it back as defective merchandise?

A lot of "special needs" are invisible, or don't really manifest themselves until the child become older and its brain develops. Because the adoption process is expedited for international adoptions, there's absolutely no guarantee that the child you get will be "perfect". At least with domestic special needs adoptions, you've got an inkling of what's to come.


Not only that, but (and few people realise it) in the very few countries that provide babies for international adoption outside the "baby farm"/"baby broker" system, the kids eligible for international adoption are required to be "special needs"--healthy white babies are ONLY adopted in-country, and it's only the kids who are considered unadoptable (or what would be referred to euphemistically in the States as "Wednesday's Child" adoptions) that get adopted internationally.

Pretty much all the ex-USSR countries restrict their adoptions to "Wednesday's Child" adoption, much of Asia has (yes, even Chinese and South Korean "healthy girl babies" count--they're basically considered unadoptable due to cultural reasons, and generally almost all that's available for healthy kids are female babies) and Ethiopia (which recently became a hot spot for "baby farms" and baby brokers) is tightening its laws to restrict international adoption to "Wednesday's Child" cases.
2012-11-18 04:38:33 PM
1 votes:

Endive Wombat: Last guy worked for (guy had more than a few million in the bank)...him and his wife had a hell of a time trying to adopt domestically. Multiple, upon multiple home visits...he said he felt like he was getting interrogated again for all his clearances...

So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be


Hate to tell you, but it's changed...and I'd hope for the sake of your former employer that the adoption agency in question was legitimate, because it's entirely possible (if the track record for international adoptions in many areas holds up) he could be subject to a future custody dispute.

The general rule in the ex-USSR now is that parents have to have a home study, several visits with the kids, and have to be generally approved as psychologically fit--and that's assuming that Russia in particular is willing to adopt to American families at all (because of a very nasty incident where a Russian adoptee was literally flown back to the orphanage).

Also, Russia--in fact, all the ex-USSR countries--now restrict international adoptions to what would be termed "special needs adoptions" or "Wednesday's Child adoptions"--that is, the only kids available for international adoption are special-needs children who have either been in the system for years or who have major physical and/or intellectual disabilities. (You don't get the healthy white girl baby anymore, you get the choice between the 7-year-old kid with FAS or the Ukranian babby who was born near Pripyat and has a foot growing out his head.)

If he "just paid cash and got healthy white baby", I would STRONGLY suspect something is NOT on the "up and up" (because even in-country adoptions in Russia required a home study back then)--in the early days after the fall of the Soviet Union and the breakup of the Warsaw Pact, there was a real problem with international "baby farm" operators setting up shop to adopt out kids (not even checking if the kids were even adoptable in some cases--Russia had issues with this, and Romania in particular had real problems with this). Even China--which probably has the most lax regs internationally in international adoption of healthy babies as long as they're girls--requires a process that can take the better part of a year, and even IT is not "I plunk down $200,000 and get healthy Chinese babby".
2012-11-18 04:02:15 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: KawaiiNot: Oh & I know tons of good parents who adopted locally in my area. There is no domestic shortage of kids who need a loving family! The only "shortage" is of healthy, white newborns from healthy, smart white moms.

This is exactly the reason. Nobody wants the "broken" ones, no matter how great their need may be.


Even adopting a special needs kid is exceptionally hard in some states. I have a friend who fostered a FAS kid in CA (where this couple are from), and decided after two years that they wanted to adopt her, despite rather large developmental and emotional problems. Six months after starting that process, the mother changed her mind and started trying to get her back (but not the second FAS kid she'd had in the meantime). A year later she changed her mind back, but it still took a total of three years from the time they decided to adopt her.
2012-11-18 03:54:39 PM
1 votes:

Wodan11: jtown: It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.

Yeah, tell these folks that.

Endive Wombat: So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be

All well and good, but the problem is that this funds additional child trafficking and the practice of having kids for money. Girls will get pregnant simply because they know they can get a cool $10k US for it (or whatever).


What? Generally the kids abroad come from orphanages. So you're funding orphanages, not parents selling babies.
2012-11-18 02:45:27 PM
1 votes:

StashMonster: Why not sponser a child instead? Then a child living in a poor country can have a decent education and some of the money goes to its community too.


With all due respect, this is actually worse than adoption. If you donate $1, a large chunk gets sucked into the overhead of the charity itself, then a large chunk of what's left goes to the government or graft / warlords of the destination country. You're lucky if one penny goes to the actual need. And, to top it off, it encourages dependency, a system of welfare, and propts up the systems of belief and attitudes that permit people on those countries to continue breeding past their and their country's capacity to support.

If you are one to go for charity, there are plenty of ways to do this in your own community. At least you can minimize the graft and also you can personally devote your time and commitment (not just your spare change) to ensuring that it goes to improve the lot of those in need.
2012-11-18 02:27:08 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: WhippingBoy: My wife and I had the choice, and we chose to adopt a child with special needs. We felt that this was (literally) the least we could do to make a significant improvement to the world.

I applaud your commitment to helping a special needs child, but there are >6 billion people in the world. You aren't making a "significant" improvement to the world by helping just one person.


He is making a significant improvement in that child's world.

/Get a puppy or something, cranky butt
2012-11-18 02:18:26 PM
1 votes:

Roukzeptea23: I agree that more people should adopt domestically, but I understand why they don't. It's something that we should probably work to change.


Tell them "Made in the USA" or bust.
2012-11-18 02:15:53 PM
1 votes:

Mind the Gap: I'm wondering if the real problem that the police had with the adoption was that the couple didn't pay the proper bribe money to the local police department.

I can just see it being like a speed trap. The police sit outside the courthouse waiting for the adoption to be complete and then give the parents the choice between paying the police "fee" or cooling their heels in jail while the kids go to the orphanage. Maybe they were too subtle and the parents didn't even realize that was what was happening.

If the Mom hadn't had Facebook access to communicate with the outside world (which was odd but extremely helpful) then they would have been stuck since they didn't grease the right palms.


My mom is friends through her church with missionaries in Ghana. I heard one story about a lady being solicited for a bribe to process an application for a passport. Apparently, the "regular" processing is 6 months and the "expedited" is 1 month, with a fee. This Christian lady was horrified to find out after the fact that she actually paid a bribe.
2012-11-18 02:09:21 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: ou aren't making a "significant" improvement to the world by helping just one person.


Sure it would be great if every couple created a program to help thousands or millions of kids.

Let us know how you are accomplishing that. TIA!!
2012-11-18 02:04:26 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: WhippingBoy: My wife and I had the choice, and we chose to adopt a child with special needs. We felt that this was (literally) the least we could do to make a significant improvement to the world.

I applaud your commitment to helping a special needs child, but there are >6 billion people in the world. You aren't making a "significant" improvement to the world by helping just one person.


Yes he is. Yes.
2012-11-18 02:01:10 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: My wife and I had the choice, and we chose to adopt a child with special needs. We felt that this was (literally) the least we could do to make a significant improvement to the world.


I applaud your commitment to helping a special needs child, but there are >6 billion people in the world. You aren't making a "significant" improvement to the world by helping just one person.
2012-11-18 01:43:10 PM
1 votes:

jaytkay: Apparently some nice people adopted some cute kids. Ergo they are Hitler.
Sorry, haters. The proper reaction is DAWWWW!
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x317]


Additionally, I love all the adoption experts in this thread---and yet i don't see one post from anyone who has actually adopted a child, either here or overseas.
2012-11-18 01:29:43 PM
1 votes:
It took my mom and dad over two years to officially adopt me. Then they got brought to court by my heroin using biological mom to try and get me back.

She disappeared and the court case was dropped. Life hasn't been a piece of cake but it has been better than the stories I hear my biological brother and sister had to get through.

Imagine finding your mom in the tub with a syringe hanging out of her arm or being woken up at midnight when your 10 to eat a half cooked burger because your parents forgot about dinner.

Yeah - and these were the people I almost went back to.
2012-11-18 01:21:57 PM
1 votes:

Salts: Either it is a different standards due to state laws or they used a crappy agency or lawyer.


I think it's all of the above. I've heard a plethora of stories from varying ends. Including people who have no business being around a child and those who are the perfect, quintessential 'parents' going in opposite directions; depending on State, Agency & yes, Lawyer.
2012-11-18 01:19:59 PM
1 votes:

Oldiron_79: Why do yuppies wanna go all the way to Africa to adopt a black kid? There are plenty of black kids here in the US that need adopting.


African black kids are trendy, like little Chinese girls used to be.
2012-11-18 01:04:08 PM
1 votes:

Roukzeptea23: Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.

It's a lot more expensive and takes a lot more time, which is why people adopt children from out of the country. It takes A LOT of patience to adopt domestically.

I agree that more people should adopt domestically, but I understand why they don't. It's something that we should probably work to change.


Having two adopted siblings I agree completely, we got my sister when she was 14 months old and she wasn't finally ours until she was more than 5 years old. Her biological mother dicked us around constantly, deciding to fight for custody, dropping out of sight for 6 months on a crack binge and coming back to fight again. I understand the need to protect the right of parents but this woman was a piece of trash with no hope of raising the girl but they gave her chance after chance for years while my parents were terrified of losing her and she and my natural brother and sister were busy bonding with a child who might be ripped out of our lives at any time. It worked out but there was no guarantee.
2012-11-18 01:03:35 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: So what happens when the international child you adopt turns out to be a "special needs" child? (Or do special needs children only exist in Western countries?). Do you send it back as defective merchandise?

A lot of "special needs" are invisible, or don't really manifest themselves until the child become older and its brain develops. Because the adoption process is expedited for international adoptions, there's absolutely no guarantee that the child you get will be "perfect". At least with domestic special needs adoptions, you've got an inkling of what's to come.


Someone already did it - that Russian boy whose adoptive mother put him on a plane back to Russia.

Link
2012-11-18 01:02:43 PM
1 votes:
Again, if you want to ensure that your baby is "perfect", the best way to do it is to adopt it from a country that has no real checks and balances, no adequate medical care, and where its mother was severely malnourished throughout the entire pregnancy. What could possibly go wrong?
2012-11-18 12:55:46 PM
1 votes:

StashMonster: In general I object to the attitude that a lot of people seem to have about having children. It isn't like getting a puppy or a kitten. I don't have any sympathy for people complaining that two years is too long to wait so they "need" to adopt overseas. Why not sponser a child instead? Then a child living in a poor country can have a decent education and some of the money goes to its community too.

There are also lots of kids that need decent foster homes. Sometimes people can go on to adopt, I think.

I am not against kids getting a nice family to care for them, it just seems that too many people see children as some kind of life-enhancing accessory that they insist on having just when THEY want on their terms. People making a big fuss about wanting to adopt, and people having test tube babies, are an extension of the people who have the "life plan" where they plan to have X many babies at such-a-time.

Something about thinking like that about human life creeps me out. I know I'm not explaining it very well but it is just this deep-down feeling that I have. I always thought like that, and it got really creepy for a while when I had my daughter at the age of 24. I got pressurised to have an abortion by the family planning clinic (even though that is illegal), even got hassled by the midwife while I was giving birth about being "too young". Then for a few years on all her paperwork it was stated that she was "unplanned", and people asked about that again and again. It IS apparently relevant as it is a predictor of various things, but the way people said it made it obvious that they equated this with being an "accident" or "mistake" in some way.

It just made it REALLY clear to me that we live in a society where kids are seen as a choice like having a dog. I nearly had the abortion they tried to railroad me into and the compulsory "counselling" seemed to consist of being told not to talk about it because "everyone does it and you will cope better". I am not against p ...


I get it, I'm adopted and my adoptive parents had no business having me or any other child. They didn't want a child to raise, they want something to erase the pain of years of failure of try to have a biological child. I didn't ease their pain and what was their problems became mine. My entire childhood was nothing but physical and emotional abuse. I've nearly killed myself, spend years depressed and only in the last few years battled back to be the person I want to be - happy.

When you look at having or adopting a child in the terms of what does it do you for - you are doomed to failure. Worse yet is when infant adoption is viewed in the light of getting a healthy child. Nothing in life is guaranteed, when you have a biological child you may risk health problems down the road. The same holds true for adoption, what happens when that healthy baby turns into a not so healthy toddler or child? Do we allow the adoptive parents to abandon them? Just like biological children, the odds are in the adoptive parents favor of the child continuing to be healthy but one must consider that the risk will always be there of something going wrong. Not wanting to adopt a child with special needs does not a someone a bad person. You have to honest with yourself, taking in a child you can't handle does not do that child any favors. But the belief that a person spend x-number of years on a waiting list and spend so much money entitles them to a healthy perfect child is pure selfishness. You have to accept that kids up for adoption are humans, and like all humans they may have flaws. Adoption can be just as much of a grab-bag as biological children - if you go into it with unreal expectation you have already failed as a parent.

On a personal note - in the past I tried to have children but due a mess of health problems I can't get them to term. Two miscarriages and a baby that only lived a week - I saw the writing on the wall and quit. I wanted to be a mother so bad, I wanted to create the loving family I never had. Look back now I realize I being selfish. I wasn't happy, having a baby wasn't wasn't going to make me happy. While I do wish with all of my heart my daughter had lived - I don't think I would have been a very good mother at the time. I wanted her to fix me and the only person that can fix me - is me.
2012-11-18 12:49:01 PM
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: Dick move to approve it and then arrest them for it, but on the other hand the whole "selling your country's children to rich Americans" think is shady as hell to begin with, so I can't say that their shady deal ending up being shady is really something that they couldn't have anticipated well in advance.


You don't understand how Africa works. Hint: bribery and shakedown
2012-11-18 12:25:36 PM
1 votes:
So what happens when the international child you adopt turns out to be a "special needs" child? (Or do special needs children only exist in Western countries?). Do you send it back as defective merchandise?

A lot of "special needs" are invisible, or don't really manifest themselves until the child become older and its brain develops. Because the adoption process is expedited for international adoptions, there's absolutely no guarantee that the child you get will be "perfect". At least with domestic special needs adoptions, you've got an inkling of what's to come.
2012-11-18 12:13:43 PM
1 votes:
In general I object to the attitude that a lot of people seem to have about having children. It isn't like getting a puppy or a kitten. I don't have any sympathy for people complaining that two years is too long to wait so they "need" to adopt overseas. Why not sponser a child instead? Then a child living in a poor country can have a decent education and some of the money goes to its community too.

There are also lots of kids that need decent foster homes. Sometimes people can go on to adopt, I think.

I am not against kids getting a nice family to care for them, it just seems that too many people see children as some kind of life-enhancing accessory that they insist on having just when THEY want on their terms. People making a big fuss about wanting to adopt, and people having test tube babies, are an extension of the people who have the "life plan" where they plan to have X many babies at such-a-time.

Something about thinking like that about human life creeps me out. I know I'm not explaining it very well but it is just this deep-down feeling that I have. I always thought like that, and it got really creepy for a while when I had my daughter at the age of 24. I got pressurised to have an abortion by the family planning clinic (even though that is illegal), even got hassled by the midwife while I was giving birth about being "too young". Then for a few years on all her paperwork it was stated that she was "unplanned", and people asked about that again and again. It IS apparently relevant as it is a predictor of various things, but the way people said it made it obvious that they equated this with being an "accident" or "mistake" in some way.

It just made it REALLY clear to me that we live in a society where kids are seen as a choice like having a dog. I nearly had the abortion they tried to railroad me into and the compulsory "counselling" seemed to consist of being told not to talk about it because "everyone does it and you will cope better". I am not against people having abortions if they really want them, I am just opposed to this attitude that we somehow have a right to have kids exactly when we decide we want them. (The other side of this being that if they weren't planned they were somehow a mistake).

Adoption is a great idea, but as other posters have said there are a lot of kids with problems who need parents who can't get adopted. I don't like the idea that people are going abroad to get "perfect" kids and possibly avoid all the safeguards that take up time at home. I don't have any kind of ideal-world solution to propose, I am sure every situation is different. It is just a big "yuck" to me when I see or hear about people getting all entitled about having kids. It may not be rational, but it makes my toes curl.
2012-11-18 12:09:49 PM
1 votes:
Serves them right. Why adopt unless you are going to get a real child and not one of those African AIDS containers.
2012-11-18 12:06:19 PM
1 votes:
Adopting in the US can be incredibly difficult unless you're adopting a child with special needs. I don't think it's entirely honest to hold this against someone who wants to adopt a healthy child.

Take my mother-in-law, for example. They adopted two children with Down's, and both turned into the most enjoyable adults. However, the level of sacrifice required to get to that point was unfathomable to me before I met them. For the younger child, they spent the entire first year and a half in the hospital. Literally every day. My wife was raised by her grandmother for awhile. The stress contributed to (but was not the ultimate reason for) the destruction of their marriage.

The commitment is ongoing to this day, over 25-some years later. Consider the possibility of having a dependent who perpetually has the needs of young child, and the problems that brings. I don't feel wrong in saying that not everyone is cut out for that kind of sacrifice. I honestly think the number of parents who would be good at it is exceedingly small, and those parents seek out special needs children. I strongly suspect that suggesting someone who wants a healthy child should "settle" for one with special needs, as many people here are proposing, is a recipe for disaster. Having any kid is a sacrifice, but without experiencing it I don't think they truly have any idea what having a special needs child entails.

Contrast that with my aunt and uncle, who are biologically unable to have their own kids. They tried desperately for probably about 10 years to adopt a child, without success. Dozens of home visits. Pop-ins at the office. Background checks, full asset review, interviewing neighbors, current co-workers, former co-workers, family, casual acquaintances... the process is more involved than what I went through to get a security clearance. In the end, the problem was mainly financial. They own a nice rural home outright, two cars, stable jobs, the usual stuff, but they're not wealthy people, and that was held against them. They would have been excellent parents. While I don't know for sure, they probably could have adopted a special needs child even though they often bring a far greater financial burden.

It's a messed up situation, to be sure. There's a lot of animosity in this thread for people adopting from other countries, but having seen how adopting here in the US works I completely understand why they do it. Sometimes I go out and I see huge families with 6-10 kids obviously living at the poverty level, and I'm sure my aunt and uncle do too. I can't imagine their pain seeing that and knowing they couldn't adopt a child because, despite being relatively well-off, they didn't make enough money.
2012-11-18 10:42:55 AM
1 votes:
Apparently some nice people adopted some cute kids. Ergo they are Hitler.

Sorry, haters. The proper reaction is DAWWWW!

i.dailymail.co.uk
2012-11-18 10:33:41 AM
1 votes:
"How much for the little girl?"

i.ytimg.com

/oblig
2012-11-18 10:07:50 AM
1 votes:

Wodan11: jtown: It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.

Yeah, tell these folks that.

Endive Wombat: So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be

All well and good, but the problem is that this funds additional child trafficking and the practice of having kids for money. Girls will get pregnant simply because they know they can get a cool $10k US for it (or whatever).


Also kidnapping, there are absolutely heartbreaking stories from mothers in China who have had their young children (usually sub-3 years old) kidnapped by either strangers or some they knew and sold to baby brokers. Most either end up being adopted by other Chinese couples or sold into international adoption agencies who don't care to check the kid's background since there is a lot of money to be made off of western couples wanting a Chinese baby/kid. This is not just a Chinese problem - lots of children in the international adoption system come kidnapped children. More countries are clamping down on international adoption or tightening their adoption standards due to past abuses or other factors. This is fueling the underground black market adoption since some people have their hearts set on a child from a specific country. Whether they mean to or not, waving a bunch of money around in a poor country with a corruption problems is going to create the perfect storm of less than ethical behavior in getting these parents the child they want. It is absolutely tragic that their are people in the western world that become parents at the expense of the biological parents going though the hell of losing a child and not know what happened to him/her or even if they are still alive.
2012-11-18 09:19:25 AM
1 votes:

Wodan11: jtown: It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.

Yeah, tell these folks that.


Sounds to me like they got the kids and they're back home. Still probably ended up being less hassle than a US adoption.
2012-11-18 09:05:40 AM
1 votes:

jtown: It's generally a huge PITA to adopt in the US. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to adopt kids from halfway around the planet.


Yeah, tell these folks that.

Endive Wombat: So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be


All well and good, but the problem is that this funds additional child trafficking and the practice of having kids for money. Girls will get pregnant simply because they know they can get a cool $10k US for it (or whatever).
2012-11-18 09:05:19 AM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


But how will everyone know what great people you are if it looks like the kids might be biologically yours?
2012-11-18 09:02:13 AM
1 votes:
In some places in the US there is a 1 year period where it isn't final. In other words, you can raise a kid for 11 months and have it yanked from your house.

The other big problem with infants is that a lot of them have big problems (addicted to narcotics/fetal alcohol syndrome) which can be dealt with, but it isn't always disclosed. My inlaws were given an infant with Mediterranean Anemia. It wasn't disclosed and it was diagnosed when he was about 20. It caused brain damage. If they knew about it they could have been treating him all along.
2012-11-18 08:51:49 AM
1 votes:

Endive Wombat: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Sounds like the Americans were interested in making damn sure he was able to actually commit to safely raising a child (kids aren't puppies, you can't just drop them off at the SPA when they stop being cute) and the Russians were just interested in his money.

They had already raised 3 kids. I am not trying to make this guy and his family look like saints...but they are great parents.


Lots of great parents can't handle adoption (it can be an emotional roller coaster, especially if the kid ends up having any issues), and raising kids is not an automatic qualifier. Non biological children tend to be at higher risk of abuse, so adoption agencies and the state go out of there way to try to be damn sure there is NO sign of risk.
2012-11-18 08:48:28 AM
1 votes:

The_Philosopher_King: I came in also to say something like "Buy American" but then I read the comments. I see why waiting two years for an adoption to go through is too much of a burden. But I guess making sure that the birth parents agree fully without reservations is a good thing. I hate to think what suffering there is from a Ghana mama who had her child removed by some greedy bastard.

So we got to work on the length it takes for domestic adoption. 2 years is way too long and is not fair to the child. A lot of development, physical, mental and intellectually occur in that time.

Besides, when you shop for a puppy you want a puppy, not an adolescent.


It didn't take two years to adopt. Birth parents sign surrenders and have a three day period to change their mind (at least in Florida) and that's it. Adopting from "the system" takes time...pretend get case plans and a chance to get their kids back, and if they don't voluntarily surrender then the state had to go through trials and appeals. What takes so long privately is waiting for a healthy "normal" baby. Google the "heart gallery." You could adopt any of those kids in less than a year if you were willing to go through the process, and since it's the state, you'd possibly get paid during the fostering process, and the child would likely get subsidies if they have any disabilities, and assistance with college costs in a lot of cases as well. But....they aren't perfect little babies.
2012-11-18 08:35:41 AM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


This times eleventh. Let's get our own house in order first. A lot of these countries resent us for "stealing" their children like this and taking them away from their culture and home.
2012-11-18 08:08:23 AM
1 votes:

Orange-Pippin: I don't know what the answer is but, domestic adoptions of infants take a minimum of one to two years. It can take even longer if you want is known as a closed adoption (birth parent information is sealed). However, I have seen varying situations from many couples in my church who have chosen to adopt. One family I know adopted a special needs Katrina child. It took several months but the waiting period (and the expense) was considerably less. Another couple I know is still in the process of adopting a child who was almost murdered by the childs biological "mother". The "mother" is in prison and the adoption process is now going on 2 years. I'm guessing alot of the red-tape we hear about depends on the biological parent. But, this is only a guess.


Yes, when I think of child rearing I think of a "cheap" and "expedient" experience. The best parents are the least patient, after all.
2012-11-18 07:44:02 AM
1 votes:

Roukzeptea23: Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.

It's a lot more expensive and takes a lot more time, which is why people adopt children from out of the country. It takes A LOT of patience to adopt domestically.

I agree that more people should adopt domestically, but I understand why they don't. It's something that we should probably work to change.


Last guy worked for (guy had more than a few million in the bank)...him and his wife had a hell of a time trying to adopt domestically. Multiple, upon multiple home visits...he said he felt like he was getting interrogated again for all his clearances...

So after a couple thousand dollars into it, they canceled their application, hooked up with the missions trips folk at their church, and over the course of about 2 weeks, went to Russia, found an adoption agency, dropped some cash then headed home with a new baby girl. That happened to him was about 12 years ago, so I do not know if things have changed...but he said overall the experience in the US was horrible, and the Russians were nice as can be
2012-11-18 07:35:11 AM
1 votes:
Something about International adoption rubs me wrong. These tend to be people who can't adopt in the USA (Because they are creepy or have valid issues that causes them not to be picked by pregnant woman considering adoption) or they are coupled who are so threatened by the idea of their child's birth family ever finding them that they want an ocean in between to protect them or then there are the do-gooders who think they are doing a favor to these children by taking them away from their home country.

I really think International Adoption has a lot of negatives for some of the kids adopted. My heart goes out to good parents who can't have a bio-child but domestic adoption is complex & full of paperwork to protect the child from those bad eggs out there who should not be trusted with kids.

Oh & I know tons of good parents who adopted locally in my area. There is no domestic shortage of kids who need a loving family! The only "shortage" is of healthy, white newborns from healthy, smart white moms.
2012-11-18 07:12:05 AM
1 votes:
The comments annoyed me. "Why not adopt American?" Well, at least HERE, they have electricity, running water, etc. I imagine those kids were worse off.
2012-11-18 07:10:32 AM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: That's awesome that you have such a big heart and all... but there are PLENTY of domestic wretches that need a home, too.


It's a lot more expensive and takes a lot more time, which is why people adopt children from out of the country. It takes A LOT of patience to adopt domestically.

I agree that more people should adopt domestically, but I understand why they don't. It's something that we should probably work to change.
2012-11-18 07:09:36 AM
1 votes:
Odd they are actually cute. I was expecting something out of Deliverance.
 
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