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(Ars Technica)   After spending years convincing Web devs that they should design sites primarily for IE since it was the most popular browser, Microsoft is now asking Web devs to design sites for all mobile browsers, not just the most popular one   (arstechnica.com) divider line 40
    More: Obvious, mobile browser, Internet Explorer 10, Internet Explorer, Microsoft, WebKit, Redmond, World Wide Web Consortium, browser  
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1753 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Nov 2012 at 6:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-17 01:36:55 PM  
If Microsoft had been smart they would have based IE10 off of webkit like Chrome and Safari. Especially since webkit more or less owns 99% of the smartphone/tablet marketshare on the web.
 
2012-11-17 04:21:37 PM  
That's only because Microsoft FEELS LIKE THEY ARE JUST TOO CLOSE TO WUB YOU

(wub wub wub, wub wub wub, wub wub wub)
 
2012-11-17 05:44:38 PM  
It's what you say when you are no longer popular.

/and fark the horse they rode in on
 
2012-11-17 06:59:56 PM  
Yes, it's a good idea to build websites against standards rather than against what engine happens to be popular.

But no matter how pervasive WebKit gets, there's no indication they're going to halt development and leave it to rot like Microsoft did with IE 6, so the two situations aren't analogous.
 
2012-11-17 07:00:03 PM  
Don't you see that multiple vendors coming together to create a cross platform, open source, standards-based html rendering engine is exactly the same as Microsoft trying to kill Netscape by introducing closed source, proprietary extensions that require their own platform to function?
 
2012-11-17 07:08:14 PM  
The only site I have problems with is IMDB with IE9 on WP
 
2012-11-17 07:12:52 PM  
Frankly, with CSS3 size-responsive @media calls, the future could be worrying about sizes rather than makes and models (so to speak)..
Few serious responsive design starter points are relying on the bulky, slightly-reliable mobile-detection scripts of old these days.
 
2012-11-17 07:19:11 PM  

Somaticasual: Frankly, with CSS3 size-responsive @media calls, the future could be worrying about sizes rather than makes and models (so to speak)..
Few serious responsive design starter points are relying on the bulky, slightly-reliable mobile-detection scripts of old these days.


I've been building this way, and it is generally smarter, but the rapid proliferation and changing of common resolutions on mobile devices can be a real whore sometimes. I'm sure it's not WORSE than the old days, but it's almost as much work, just in different ways.

/of course YMMV depending on the type of site being developed.
 
2012-11-17 08:24:16 PM  
Is it just me, or is this one of those rare times that an Ironic tag would actually be relevant and accurate? and we waste an obvious tag on it?
 
2012-11-17 08:45:07 PM  

Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: That's only because Microsoft FEELS LIKE THEY ARE JUST TOO CLOSE TO WUB YOU

(wub wub wub, wub wub wub, wub wub wub)


You, good Farker, win this thread.
 
2012-11-17 09:29:25 PM  

teknishn: If Microsoft had been smart they would have based IE10 off of webkit like Chrome and Safari. Especially since webkit more or less owns 99% of the smartphone/tablet marketshare on the web.


what is a webkit
 
2012-11-17 09:30:13 PM  
OK, how much of my traffic is coming through Windows phone? They're like what, 3% of all mobile and that's what, 10% of all browsing? So, 0.3% of all users? Nope. Not worth it.

And it's not like Windows phone is going to be around for years.
 
2012-11-17 09:58:09 PM  
Web sites are not supposed to be designed to be compliant with any browser. Web sites are supposed to follow a non-proprietary standard.

Unfortunately, some web designers ignore the standard and design around IE, which usually cripples the website from being very useful to users with other browsers.  Such designers are known as MS fanbois, and should receive atomic wedgies. 

/the state of Florida websites were designed by MS fanbois
//only IE is 100% compatible
 
2012-11-17 10:03:08 PM  
Yeah, only problem with their whining (don't use WebKit prefixes! Gay! Hax!) is that WebKit browsers are much faster about implementing the standard. So I'd have to use MS prefixes or tags to make sure it's backwards compatible for IE. (filters, anyone?)

Bottom line: real developers will laugh, and then go back to ignoring IE as much as possible.
 
2012-11-17 10:12:27 PM  

BullBearMS: Don't you see that multiple vendors coming together to create a cross platform, open source, standards-based html rendering engine is exactly the same as Microsoft trying to kill Netscape by introducing closed source, proprietary extensions that require their own platform to function?


Mmm, more or less. You think Mozilla and Webkit have nothing to do with what standards are set? shiat half the ideas on whatwg that are awesome and are basically replacements for ubiquitous javascript libraries get rejected despite popularity. There were proposed standards to do basic things like include smaller and larger versions of images in one tag (lightbox/mobile size) that got rejected because some elder connected dick said nuh-uh, not my idea. Hell, look at how they've farked the video tag and ignored the audio tag.

There's no reason all 55kb of jQuery shouldn't be included in every webkit browser so every site on the planet doesn't have to reference it in their code.
 
2012-11-17 10:15:43 PM  

Alleyoop: Web sites are not supposed to be designed to be compliant with any browser. Web sites are supposed to follow a non-proprietary standard.

Unfortunately, some web designers ignore the standard and design around IE, which usually cripples the website from being very useful to users with other browsers.  Such designers are known as MS fanbois, and should receive atomic wedgies. 

/the state of Florida websites were designed by MS fanbois
//only IE is 100% compatible


Ten years ago this was the easiest way to make money in web design, and the state of Florida went for the lowest bidder, which probably still took them for a lot of money and left a poorly working product. No, it wasn't forward-thinking, but neither was the government.
 
2012-11-17 10:18:49 PM  

Somaticasual: Frankly, with CSS3 size-responsive @media calls, the future could be worrying about sizes rather than makes and models (so to speak)..
Few serious responsive design starter points are relying on the bulky, slightly-reliable mobile-detection scripts of old these days.


Oh wait, you're serious. Have you used the internet on a phone? Ever had luck working the back button? Redirects are far from uncommon. Let me help you out - the site you're on, and most of the news sites it links to use this dumb, user-hating workaround.
 
2012-11-17 10:33:18 PM  
Embrace, extend and extinguish, Amirite?
 
2012-11-17 11:13:49 PM  

moothemagiccow: Somaticasual: Frankly, with CSS3 size-responsive @media calls, the future could be worrying about sizes rather than makes and models (so to speak)..
Few serious responsive design starter points are relying on the bulky, slightly-reliable mobile-detection scripts of old these days.

Oh wait, you're serious. Have you used the internet on a phone? Ever had luck working the back button? Redirects are far from uncommon. Let me help you out - the site you're on, and most of the news sites it links to use this dumb, user-hating workaround.


Fark also still uses tables. Your point is?
News sites tend to go with the tried and true, and I never said it wasn't still in the wild. It's just going to be a dying trend moving forward, since it is so hacky.
 
2012-11-17 11:55:51 PM  
Maybe Microsoft is going to see what platform works and buy it instead of developing their own
 
2012-11-18 12:13:18 AM  

Alleyoop: Web sites are not supposed to be designed to be compliant with any browser. Web sites are supposed to follow a non-proprietary standard.

Unfortunately, some web designers ignore the standard and design around IE, which usually cripples the website from being very useful to users with other browsers.  Such designers are known as MS fanbois, and should receive atomic wedgies. 

/the state of Florida websites were designed by MS fanbois
//only IE is 100% compatible


As someone who spent the last two months rewriting an asp.net webpage's html and javascript I am of the opinion that such people need smacking around. I still got to track down a few code pieces that are still causing trouble and writing work arounds to work on different browsers.

Luckily the other site I work on was designed up to be compatible with lots of different webpages and works a lot better. I still get people biatching that it doesn't support IE4. At times like that I understand mass murderers..
 
2012-11-18 12:55:41 AM  
Considering newer phones are starting to sport 720p+ screens mobile versions of websites are becoming less necessary, my 18 month old phone has a 960x540 res
 
2012-11-18 01:25:42 AM  

PhelanWolf: Considering newer phones are starting to sport 720p+ screens mobile versions of websites are becoming less necessary, my 18 month old phone has a 960x540 res


They're still incredibly necessary because that resolution is squeezed into a tiny screen. Unless you increase the size of everything, it will be impossible to use. Resolution is far from being the only consideration. In fact, PPI is a much more important factor in a lot of cases.

My philosophy to web design and development has always been "make it standards compliant and fark everyone else". I can't stand the hacky work-arounds to make things look ok on IE, and I usually refuse to do it. If clients insist on it, I'll throw in a "This site works best in a standards-compliant browser. Click here to get one." disclaimer somewhere.

Really, though, making poorly-working crap that works in every browser from IE5 up is a waste of time, and just dilutes and butchers a creative work. I wish web devs would all take a stand against this and refuse to build this shiat.
 
2012-11-18 01:44:32 AM  
It's pretty strange.. 3 years ago 90% of my phones internet use was via a web browser. Today though 90% of my phone/tablet internet use is done via apps. 3 years ago `quality' app selection small and the apps usually weren't even official. The nice thing is now most of the apps are more efficient, official, and much more usable than their web based counter parts..
 
2012-11-18 02:06:20 AM  
Dear Microsoft:

Start working on a Web Audio API implementation. Then we'll talk.
 
2012-11-18 03:08:18 AM  
This was funny.
 
2012-11-18 05:01:15 AM  
Historically speaking, I think it's safe to say that the internet is the worst collective development platform anyone has ever used.
 
2012-11-18 07:39:41 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Historically speaking, I think it's safe to say that the internet is the worst collective development platform anyone has ever used.


Look at how much people do in terms of abstraction libraries and generators (jQuery, LESS, TypeScript) because browsers or their implementations are just so broken.

Part of the problem is the legacy crap of browsers (companies still using IE6), but it's also about the standards boards running at a snail's pace. They talk about standards, but they're planning on HTML5 to be officially a standard by 2016.

The thing I hate is how much things bleed into each other. You can't put say, a datepicker on a page together with its CSS and javascript. If someone picks the same CSS classes or function names in another plugin, it's going to create chaos.

I find it really frustrating, and thankfully, do backend services mostly so it ain't much of a problem. I don't know how people do front-end all day. It would drive me up the wall.
 
2012-11-18 09:41:24 AM  
The need to upgrade hardware every 3-4 years because of the new batch of widgetry thats come out of some dev's brain is a never ending source of annoyance. Kudos to a site like Fark for keeping it simple. So many sites just break on contact with anything but the dev's own pet platforms.

Second biggest problem is javascript was never intended to be released. Everything browsers do wrong was based on the original mistake of allowing browsers to run things on the client machine because the server told it to. Fundamentally broken model, pretending to keep state when none exists.
 
2012-11-18 09:58:09 AM  

limeyfellow: I still get people biatching that it doesn't support IE4. At times like that I understand mass murderers..


I know someone who writes instructions for home use medical devices. She is required to explain a complicated piece of technology that could have serious side effects without exceeding a fourth grade reading level. We are a nation of dumbasses, particularly down south.
 
2012-11-18 11:00:10 AM  

farkeruk: The thing I hate is how much things bleed into each other. You can't put say, a datepicker on a page together with its CSS and javascript. If someone picks the same CSS classes or function names in another plugin, it's going to create chaos.

I find it really frustrating, and thankfully, do backend services mostly so it ain't much of a problem. I don't know how people do front-end all day. It would drive me up the wall.


Front-end guy here. Use better naming conventions. Most people forget that ">" is a thing in CSS and that goes a looooooong way. If "#datepickerWrapper > #datepickerDisplay" is used by someone else, well, ask why the hell they're using 2 different date pickers on the same damn site.

I also basically refuse to use plugins. My designers are already going to lay something completely retarded out and then say "just use this plugin" that doesn't come even close to doing what they've already had approved, so it's just gotten easier to say sure if I've already hand-written it and "Yeah that's gonna work different" if I haven't. Yeah, I lose out on some slickness, but for our clients, branding is more important than slickness. Way more important that the site looks unique to the brand start to finish than ooh, the tween on that gallery is elastic!

And at the 11th hour when an account person says the client demands that it work completely differently, I'm not left editing other people's code.
 
2012-11-18 12:18:27 PM  

farkeruk: Part of the problem is the legacy crap of browsers (companies still using IE6), but it's also about the standards boards running at a snail's pace. They talk about standards, but they're planning on HTML5 to be officially a standard by 2016.

The thing I hate is how much things bleed into each other. You can't put say, a datepicker on a page together with its CSS and javascript. If someone picks the same CSS classes or function names in another plugin, it's going to create chaos.



Seriously. Chrome's already got the input type=date running. Firefox has found more important things for some reason and god knows what shiat IE busies itself with. Plus the standards are farked so my dumbass company must change all their dates to YYYY-MM-DD (which makes sense, but the morons hate change and there's no way to set the format in the tag)
 
2012-11-18 12:51:03 PM  

Shadyman: You, good Farker, win this thread.


*tips hat*

Thank ya kindly, Shadyman - cheers, amigo!
 
2012-11-18 01:02:43 PM  

evilmrsock: Front-end guy here. Use better naming conventions.


I do. The problem is other people.

When I'm doing backend stuff, I've got all the tools for working out what the other asshole did. So, I guess my anger is really about front-end tools that don't help me much.

So, anything you can suggest would be helpful.
 
2012-11-18 01:33:58 PM  

farkeruk: evilmrsock: Front-end guy here. Use better naming conventions.

I do. The problem is other people.

When I'm doing backend stuff, I've got all the tools for working out what the other asshole did. So, I guess my anger is really about front-end tools that don't help me much.

So, anything you can suggest would be helpful.


On chrome or firefox (not sure if you need web developer toolbar installed for firefox but it's fantastically useful anyway so get it), right click and inspect element. I prefer this in Firefox - it puts the style on the right column fully, and also has a 3D view I find useful at times (again, not sure what of this might be in web dev toolbar).

You'll get a style sheet showing every little bit of CSS, and exactly where it came from - what file, what line, etc, and it'll display it in order of priority - the bottom of the list went first (body declaration) and then as it goes to the top it'll show what styles were overwritten later by crossing them out. If it was applied on run-time by script, you won't see what particular script did it but you'll see it on the actual element and you'll see the style it's overwriting being crossed off, which is a nice sanity check.
 
2012-11-18 02:46:03 PM  

evilmrsock: On chrome or firefox (not sure if you need web developer toolbar installed for firefox but it's fantastically useful anyway so get it), right click and inspect element. I prefer this in Firefox - it puts the style on the right column fully, and also has a 3D view I find useful at times (again, not sure what of this might be in web dev toolbar).

You'll get a style sheet showing every little bit of CSS, and exactly where it came from - what file, what line, etc, and it'll display it in order of priority - the bottom of the list went first (body declaration) and then as it goes to the top it'll show what styles were overwritten later by crossing them out. If it was applied on run-time by script, you won't see what particular script did it but you'll see it on the actual element and you'll see the style it's overwriting being crossed off, which is a nice sanity check.


That's what I use right now. Thanks. I was just wondering what other tools there were.
 
2012-11-18 02:55:05 PM  
How about the effing mobile browser makers some together so that the devs don't have to kill themselves to make a friggin page?
 
2012-11-18 06:25:03 PM  

farkeruk: evilmrsock: On chrome or firefox (not sure if you need web developer toolbar installed for firefox but it's fantastically useful anyway so get it), right click and inspect element. I prefer this in Firefox - it puts the style on the right column fully, and also has a 3D view I find useful at times (again, not sure what of this might be in web dev toolbar).

You'll get a style sheet showing every little bit of CSS, and exactly where it came from - what file, what line, etc, and it'll display it in order of priority - the bottom of the list went first (body declaration) and then as it goes to the top it'll show what styles were overwritten later by crossing them out. If it was applied on run-time by script, you won't see what particular script did it but you'll see it on the actual element and you'll see the style it's overwriting being crossed off, which is a nice sanity check.

That's what I use right now. Thanks. I was just wondering what other tools there were.


I'm notorious for smashing my head into the problem until it stops moving, so don't let my ignorance of better tools imply there aren't any :D
 
2012-11-18 09:36:57 PM  
I recommend Firebug (and all the dozens of add-ons for it that allow you to do everything under the sun).

Also, any web developer worth their weight doesn't JUST use engine-specific CSS but also the standardised one(s).

eg.
-moz-border-radius: 4px
-webkit-border-radius: 4px
border-radius: 4px

/MS has no right to biatch though
//Kings of farking up CSS and HTML
///I use engine-specific nomenclature instead of browser-specific because they're rendering-engine specific...
 
2012-11-19 12:24:42 PM  
Alleyoop: Web sites are not supposed to be designed to be compliant with any browser. Web sites are supposed to follow a non-proprietary standard.

Unfortunately, some web designers ignore the standard and design around IE, which usually cripples the website from being very useful to users with other browsers. Such designers are known as MS fanbois, and should receive atomic wedgies.

/the state of Florida websites were designed by MS fanbois
//only IE is 100% compatible


Add the State of New York websites to that list. I normally use Firefox, but if I want to access my office e-mail from home, I have to use IE.
 
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