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(Business Insider)   Facebook is working on a new venture that may revolutionize advertising...and kill Yahoo in the process   (businessinsider.com) divider line 49
    More: Interesting, Yahoo, online advertising  
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3323 clicks; posted to Business » on 16 Nov 2012 at 10:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-16 06:01:47 PM  
Is Yahoo still around? If so, who cares?
 
2012-11-16 06:16:09 PM  
That would be what's called a mercy killing.
 
2012-11-16 06:57:20 PM  
FTFA: Facebook, which has the email addresses, home addresses, and phone numbers of about billion people, checks its logs to see if its user with that information saw an ad from the marketer pushing that product. (NOTE: Facebook, retailers, and Datalogix do this through a series of double-blind procedures using "hashed identifiers" that entirely protect user anonymity. Hashes are bits of text that uniquely identify a piece of data, such as contact info, but are designed to protect against reverse engineering which would reveal that data.)

I, for one, am completely confident that no thieves, stalkers, politicians, axe murderers, marketers, or Nigerian princes will ever gain unauthorized access to my personal information, and especially never for nefarious purposes, through this marketing service. I believe this because of my utter faith in the humanity and honesty of marketers.
 
2012-11-16 07:06:56 PM  
And nothing of value was lost.
 
2012-11-16 07:07:59 PM  

This About That: honesty of marketers.


Sarcasm overload detected, shutting down.
 
2012-11-16 07:27:00 PM  
Okay, this is why I think it will never catch on...

"As the marketer's product is sold, the retailer takes note of the shopper's email address, home address and phone number (which are already on file through loyalty programs and the like).

The retailers won't want to add another step to the checkout process if it doesn't benefit them $o the only way to really guarantee them buying in i$ to incentivi$e it $omehow...and if they are able to do this..you think the extended warranties pitches are annoying, wait until the loyalty programs ramp up.

Fark you Facebook, I'll never click on your ads.
 
2012-11-16 07:30:03 PM  
Difficulty - People with brains don't see ads due to AdBlockPlus
Non-difficulty: Most people on the internet don't have brains
 
2012-11-16 07:37:24 PM  
I've identified the flaw in the plan, as PainInTheASP pointed out:

As the marketer's product is sold, the retailer takes note of the shopper's email address, home address and phone number (which are already on file through loyalty programs and the like).
 
2012-11-16 08:01:49 PM  
Yahoo has already proven to be the most effective Yahoo killer.
 
2012-11-16 10:25:56 PM  
But then, if I quit Facebook then they and their crappy tracking program are farked as far as I'm concerned. Or maybe I'll just falsify my info on FB.
 
2012-11-16 10:35:46 PM  
There are ads on the internet?
 
2012-11-16 10:42:09 PM  
Make those advertisers work harder. Maybe less people will be willing to do that job.
 
2012-11-16 10:50:31 PM  

PainInTheASP: Fark you Facebook, I'll never click on your ads.


Right. Hell yes, screw them! Why should they see one penny of benefit for giving me free access to the most complete and innovative social network ever, one that has revolutionized staying in touch with friends and hooking up with old classmates from high school?

They have no right to my clicks!
 
2012-11-16 11:00:46 PM  
Facebook delivers an anonymized report to the marketer, telling them what percentage of people who saw their ad on Facebook went out and bought the advertised product.

The real motivation for the "anonymous" results is to allow them to skew the numbers.
 
2012-11-16 11:01:30 PM  

brianbankerus: PainInTheASP: Fark you Facebook, I'll never click on your ads.

Right. Hell yes, screw them! Why should they see one penny of benefit for giving me free access to the most complete and innovative social network ever, one that has revolutionized staying in touch with friends and hooking up with old classmates from high school?


Do you find that service valuable?

Do your classmates and friends find it valuable?

Would you pay for that service if EU privacy policies made it illegal for Facebook to trade that service for monetizing your behaviors re: ads?

Would your friends and classmates pay for Facebook if that was the only way Facebook could survive?
 
2012-11-16 11:05:49 PM  

RoyBatty: Would you pay for that service if EU privacy policies made it illegal for Facebook to trade that service for monetizing your behaviors re: ads?


Well, yes. I guess I would. I mean, I pay for TotalFark even though I get regular Fark for free (I know a guy.)

You really don't know anybody who would pay?
 
2012-11-16 11:15:09 PM  
a lot of people wouldn't pay... and then facebook would lose it's mass audience... and that's kinda the opposite of the whole point.
 
2012-11-16 11:27:07 PM  

brianbankerus: RoyBatty: Would you pay for that service if EU privacy policies made it illegal for Facebook to trade that service for monetizing your behaviors re: ads?

Well, yes. I guess I would. I mean, I pay for TotalFark even though I get regular Fark for free (I know a guy.)

You really don't know anybody who would pay?


I agree with you that I wish a Facebook like service had existed since the early days of the net, I do find it valuable in connecting to relatives and friends.

I doubt many people would pay for it though.

I am leery of the trade off of monetizing my consumer behavior to pay for services, and unhappy with how Facebook can almost always be counted on to do the wrong thing.
 
2012-11-16 11:34:55 PM  
I am certain I have semi-strange views re: Facebook, but I find the streams of likes from friends and relatives of various products to be far worse than the chain emails from the crazy relatives.

And I dislike the suggestions I friend people who are friends of a friend of an acquaintance.

And I dislike all of the ads and suggestions I get a girlfriend from girls over 40 dot com or whatever it is. And most of the ads seem accurately targeted to me and yet provide services I would almost never use.

But I do like the pictures of my nieces and nephews.
 
2012-11-16 11:35:27 PM  

RoyBatty: I am leery of the trade off of monetizing my consumer behavior to pay for services, and unhappy with how Facebook can almost always be counted on to do the wrong thing.


There's always Friendster.
 
2012-11-16 11:39:05 PM  

Ed Finnerty: Yahoo has already proven to be the most effective Yahoo killer.


day after day you post some good mojo and i thank you for that. +1 internets.
 
2012-11-16 11:53:06 PM  
Couldn't you defeat that by using a separate email account for Facebook and not signing up for loyalty programs?
 
2012-11-17 12:45:17 AM  
Yawho?
 
2012-11-17 01:10:20 AM  

PainInTheASP: Okay, this is why I think it will never catch on...

"As the marketer's product is sold, the retailer takes note of the shopper's email address, home address and phone number (which are already on file through loyalty programs and the like).

The retailers won't want to add another step to the checkout process if it doesn't benefit them $o the only way to really guarantee them buying in i$ to incentivi$e it $omehow...and if they are able to do this..you think the extended warranties pitches are annoying, wait until the loyalty programs ramp up.

Fark you Facebook, I'll never click on your ads.


facebook has ads?
 
2012-11-17 03:16:37 AM  
HAR HAR HAR HAR

Kitty is laughing at you, Facebook.

Every one of the advertisements I see on MY Facebook are in FINNISH.

Best part...Kitty will be laughing at Facebook forever.
 
2012-11-17 03:32:31 AM  
"Facebook, which has the email addresses, home addresses, and phone numbers of about billion people, checks its logs to see if its user with that information saw an ad from the marketer pushing that product."

They're assuming that people have actually put their correct info on Facebook, which I doubt is entirely true. The smart ones don't put that stuff on their account, or enter bogus info when the site requires it. other people move, get new phones etc. and never bother updating their Facebook profile.
 
2012-11-17 03:37:34 AM  
Also, I don't think that targeted advertisement works anyway. I built a new gaming computer about a month ago and seeing as I haven't cleared my cookies since ordering the parts from Newegg all I've seen lately is ads for all the stuff I've already bought.

Not sure how that's supposed to generate money for anyone. Chances are, if I looked at something at an online retailer I either bought it then and there, am waiting until I get the money for it or have no plans on buying it anyway.
 
2012-11-17 03:51:20 AM  
I use yahoo for my fantasy sports leagues, seems to do a pretty good job of that...
 
2012-11-17 04:05:37 AM  
What's Yahoo?
 
2012-11-17 06:25:29 AM  
Its going to be hilarious when advertisers realize the majority of the internet hasn't seen an advertisement in the past decade.
 
2012-11-17 07:52:08 AM  
Relevant

Seriously, if you're not reading this blog, which is basically a grizzled old advertising veteran pissing all over the cluelessness of self-styled "social marketing gurus", you are missing out on a small daily pleasure.

/Which reminds me, your mom says "hi"
 
2012-11-17 09:02:13 AM  
As the marketer's product is sold, the retailer takes note of the shopper's email address, home address and phone number (which are already on file through loyalty programs and the like).

So, let me get this right... Every retailer is now going to be expected to hash the details of every order and send it to various marketeers, who are going to have to create a massive data centre based on every SKU (and various variaions) despite the fact that they'll gain almost nothing for doing so.

This is all just about Facebook and the old ad industry trying to find a way to compete with Google ads. What companies love about Google ads is that it's very clear if they worked or not. You don't have to do a load of research afterwards and marketeer bullshiat to try to keep the account.
 
2012-11-17 09:53:30 AM  

czetie: Relevant

Seriously, if you're not reading this blog, which is basically a grizzled old advertising veteran pissing all over the cluelessness of self-styled "social marketing gurus", you are missing out on a small daily pleasure.

/Which reminds me, your mom says "hi"


Good blog, thanks for the linky.

/Nothing else to say
 
2012-11-17 11:32:16 AM  
if being completely irrelevant to the internet and having no revenues couldn't kill yahoo... what can?
 
2012-11-17 02:38:01 PM  

farkeruk: As the marketer's product is sold, the retailer takes note of the shopper's email address, home address and phone number (which are already on file through loyalty programs and the like).

So, let me get this right... Every retailer is now going to be expected to hash the details of every order and send it to various marketeers, who are going to have to create a massive data centre based on every SKU (and various variaions) despite the fact that they'll gain almost nothing for doing so.

This is all just about Facebook and the old ad industry trying to find a way to compete with Google ads. What companies love about Google ads is that it's very clear if they worked or not. You don't have to do a load of research afterwards and marketeer bullshiat to try to keep the account.


I noticed that Safeway has been heavily pushing their "Just for U" program over the last several months, which as I understand it gives members personalized coupons based on their shopping habits. I don't know exactly what Safeway gets out of it, but I'd guess that waving coupons at customers gets them to buy more stuff, thus improving their profits.

The analytics they must be doing to generate those personalized coupons should mesh nicely with an outside system like the one Facebook is planning, which might reduce the incentives Facebook would need to offer to get Safeway to accept some kind of deal (it might take more to get a retailer with a less sophisticated loyalty program onboard). Although given their history, I'm sure Facebook will find some way to completely screw it up.
 
2012-11-17 02:39:58 PM  
FTFA:
Facebook delivers an anonymized report to the marketer, telling them what percentage of people who saw their ad on Facebook went out and bought the advertised product.

All of them, clearly, now pay up.
Sincerely,
Facebook

/as NoSugarAdded first pointed out in this thread
 
2012-11-17 03:41:51 PM  
So yahoo can't use email addresses to prove anything, just Facebook?

/computers. How do they work?
 
2012-11-17 05:17:57 PM  

anfrind: I don't know exactly what Safeway gets out of it, but I'd guess that waving coupons at customers gets them to buy more stuff, thus improving their profits.


Safeway gets precisely-targeted discounting to produce marginal incremental sales, which is the Holy Grail of grocery discounting. Instead of giving out coupons indiscriminately, thereby giving unnecessary discounts to people who were going to buy at full price anyway, it can give discounts only to the people it needs to in order to make an incremental sale. In a business with such tight margins, this can make a big difference.

Safeway can also sell the information as a service to its suppliers, e.g. in the form of personalized coupons printed at checkout and targeted at buyers of competitive products.

Why anybody thinks there's an opportunity for Facebook in all of this escapes me, though. What does Facebook have that Safeway could possibly want?

anfrind: Although given their history, I'm sure Facebook will find some way to completely screw it up.


Also this.
 
2012-11-17 05:38:13 PM  

RoyBatty: brianbankerus: RoyBatty: Would you pay for that service if EU privacy policies made it illegal for Facebook to trade that service for monetizing your behaviors re: ads?

Well, yes. I guess I would. I mean, I pay for TotalFark even though I get regular Fark for free (I know a guy.)

You really don't know anybody who would pay?

I agree with you that I wish a Facebook like service had existed since the early days of the net, I do find it valuable in connecting to relatives and friends.

I doubt many people would pay for it though.

I am leery of the trade off of monetizing my consumer behavior to pay for services, and unhappy with how Facebook can almost always be counted on to do the wrong thing.


Most people will move onto the next upstart/startup whore that is the free, cool, shiny new thing making no money (just making the Silicon Valley careers of the founders, who will get rich from the IPO, get to work on other projects, connect with investors, and sit on various boards). When that new thing starts to mature and get serious about revenue, everyone will jump ship again and the cycle will continue.
 
2012-11-17 05:50:40 PM  

proteus_b: if being completely irrelevant to the internet and having no revenues couldn't kill yahoo... what can?


TFA says "Yahoo is one of the biggest ad sellers on the Web, with $5 billion in annual revenue."

Yahoo may be irrelevant to you; it's irrelevant to me, for that matter. But we are not the Internet.
 
2012-11-17 11:33:28 PM  

czetie: Why anybody thinks there's an opportunity for Facebook in all of this escapes me, though. What does Facebook have that Safeway could possibly want?


The big hole in Safeway's current system is that it only knows what members buy at Safeway. If Facebook gets it right, they could know, for example, that I tend to buy eggs and dairy from Safeway, but I tend to buy produce from Sprouts and non-perishables like laundry soap from Costco. I could imagine information like that being quite valuable to a company like Safeway, although I don't know exactly how they'd make money off of it.
 
2012-11-18 07:37:14 AM  

anfrind: czetie: Why anybody thinks there's an opportunity for Facebook in all of this escapes me, though. What does Facebook have that Safeway could possibly want?

The big hole in Safeway's current system is that it only knows what members buy at Safeway. If Facebook gets it right, they could know, for example, that I tend to buy eggs and dairy from Safeway, but I tend to buy produce from Sprouts and non-perishables like laundry soap from Costco. I could imagine information like that being quite valuable to a company like Safeway, although I don't know exactly how they'd make money off of it.


This is all true, so don't take this as an attack -- I suspect you're doing the same thing I'm doing, which is trying to figure out if this makes sense at all, rather than confidently asserting that there's a thing here?

So right now Safeway knows what you buy from it, and it can assume you buy soap and produce somewhere else because you have to buy them somewhere... so it could already do the only thing it knows how to do, which is to give you coupons for produce and soap. How much more would it be worth for Safeway to know exactly where you do shop for those items?

Even if it did help Safeway to know that you buy your soap at Costco (I don't know, maybe knowing you buy it in bulk helps them?), I don't see how FB gets to be the data broker in all this. If Costco did share info with FB, it would be on the strict requirement that it isn't sold to their competitors and is only used for ad effectiveness validation, right?

The other problem FB has it has such a tiny sliver of information about you. The clickthrough rate on FB ads is infinitesimal, which cripples its ability to do any kind of matching. (Occasionally I turn off AdBlock and SocialFixer just to see whether FB has gotten any better at serving relevant ads -- it hasn't). Safeway already knows infinitely more about you than FB does, so I don't see that FB has a hand to play here.

FB's fundamental problem is that it thinks it's Don Draper when actually it's Craigslist.
 
2012-11-18 07:39:05 AM  

czetie: anfrind: czetie: Why anybody thinks there's an opportunity for Facebook in all of this escapes me, though. What does Facebook have that Safeway could possibly want?

The big hole in Safeway's current system is that it only knows what members buy at Safeway. If Facebook gets it right, they could know, for example, that I tend to buy eggs and dairy from Safeway, but I tend to buy produce from Sprouts and non-perishables like laundry soap from Costco. I could imagine information like that being quite valuable to a company like Safeway, although I don't know exactly how they'd make money off of it.

This is all true, so don't take this as an attack -- I suspect you're doing the same thing I'm doing, which is trying to figure out if this makes sense at all, rather than confidently asserting that there's a thing here?

...

The other problem FB has it has such a tiny sliver of information about you. The clickthrough rate on FB ads is infinitesimal, which cripples its ability to do any kind of matching. (Occasionally I turn off AdBlock and SocialFixer just to see whether FB has gotten any better at serving relevant ads -- it hasn't). Safeway already knows infinitely more about you than FB does, so I don't see that FB has a hand to play here.

FB's fundamental problem is that ...


p.s. If I were Safeway, the only way I'd participate in something like this would be to say to FB, "No, how about this? You give us the IDs of everybody that clicked our ad, and we'll decide how to use the info."
 
2012-11-18 12:01:12 PM  
Problem: Just because an ad was served/displayed on my screen does not mean that I actually saw it. People do become 'trained' to not even look at the ad sections of a page, especially on popular formats like Facebook.

It's more likely that I researched or commented on that purchase before making it, and Facebook's track-everything-everyone-does-everywhere-ever code picked up on that, served up as many relevant ads as possible (that I never looked at), and now they want credit for that 'sale'.

This model does not produce accurate ad-to-sales tracking, but instead allows Facebook to turn spray-n-pray advertising into guaranteed phat stacks. Fark that.
 
2012-11-18 06:24:29 PM  

czetie: This is all true, so don't take this as an attack -- I suspect you're doing the same thing I'm doing, which is trying to figure out if this makes sense at all, rather than confidently asserting that there's a thing here?


Pretty much. I've read a few BusinessWeek articles about the role of "big data" in targeted advertising, but I'm certainly no expert.

So right now Safeway knows what you buy from it, and it can assume you buy soap and produce somewhere else because you have to buy them somewhere... so it could already do the only thing it knows how to do, which is to give you coupons for produce and soap. How much more would it be worth for Safeway to know exactly where you do shop for those items?

Costco probably isn't a good example, since I doubt Safeway has any desire to compete with a membership-based bulk retailer like Costco (nor is it likely that they could). But in the case of fresh produce, I rarely buy at Safeway because if I can make it to a different store, I can often get the exact same things for half the cost or less. If, for example, Safeway could know which members do that (as opposed to which members just don't eat any fresh produce), and send them targeted coupons that offer them better prices than the competitor (assuming it doesn't kill their profit margin to do so), while still charging the higher prices to customers who haven't quite figured that out, they might see a nice increase in profits.

TL;DR: A store like Safeway might be able to persuade me to buy more produce from them with targeted coupons, but since I buy things like soap at Costco, targeted coupons for soap would be wasted on me.

Even if it did help Safeway to know that you buy your soap at Costco (I don't know, maybe knowing you buy it in bulk helps them?), I don't see how FB gets to be the data broker in all this. If Costco did share info with FB, it would be on the strict requirement that it isn't sold to their competitors and is only used for ad effectiveness validation, right?

My guess is that Facebook thinks that retailers are as likely to read the EULA as their existing users. Which, of course, is a pretty bad assumption.

The other problem FB has it has such a tiny sliver of information about you. The clickthrough rate on FB ads is infinitesimal, which cripples its ability to do any kind of matching. (Occasionally I turn off AdBlock and SocialFixer just to see whether FB has gotten any better at serving relevant ads -- it hasn't). Safeway already knows infinitely more about you than FB does, so I don't see that FB has a hand to play here.

At least in theory, Facebook has more information at their disposal than just ad-clicks. Sometimes people "like" a variety of pages that indicate certain preferences that might be of interest to advertisers. Sometimes they'll "check in" when they go to certain restaurants with friends and family--this would tell an advertiser that a person likes a particular kind of food, and maybe even how picky they are about food quality. And, of course, there are lots of people who like to posts pictures of their food on Facebook, although extracting information from an image is a lot harder.

In practice, however, they don't use that data very well at all. I've been using Facebook since 2007, and only once has it ever served up an ad that I cared about at all--specifically, it let me know that a little-known band I like (which is listed in the "favorite music" section of my profile) had a new album coming out. But even then, I didn't click the link.

FB's fundamental problem is that it thinks it's Don Draper when actually it's Craigslist.

I'd put Facebook a new notches above Craigslist (since Craigslist can't leverage "big data" due to its design), but you're right that it's no Don Draper.
 
2012-11-19 12:47:29 AM  

brianbankerus: PainInTheASP: Fark you Facebook, I'll never click on your ads.

Right. Hell yes, screw them! Why should they see one penny of benefit for giving me free access to the most complete and innovative social network ever, one that has revolutionized staying in touch with friends and hooking up with old classmates from high school?

They have no right to my clicks!


Some people have heard of a phone call or at least email and moving on with their lives after HS.
 
2012-11-19 01:01:16 AM  

OhioUGrad: Some people have heard of a phone call or at least email and moving on with their lives after HS.


And some people go outside. But we, sir, are Farkers.
 
2012-11-19 02:30:38 PM  
Acquisition Clause?

Are they saying that Datalogix is a must-buy stock?
 
2012-11-19 09:56:41 PM  
Tho more ads I see from a particular company, the less likely I am to buy their product. Advertisement is obviously money that was taken from the quality of the product to create hype over it.
 
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