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(BBC) NewsFlash Hamas rockets land just outside Jerusalem. If they hit a holy site, one of three religions is going to be PISSED   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 124
    More: NewsFlash, Hamas, Jerusalem, Israel Radio, City of God, Iron Dome, Gaza, population center, rockets  
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7957 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Nov 2012 at 11:57 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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Archived thread
2012-11-16 11:59:31 AM
12 votes:
Hamas wants to ensure that Bibi is re-elected in the upcoming election. As a radical hardliner, he helps their cause immensely.

If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out, which is obviously not in their interests.

So the logical thing for them to do is exactly what they are doing, be as threatening and aggressive as possible, in order to ensure that their fellow hard-line loonies stay in power in Israel. They recognize that the real threat to extremists is not the extremists on the other side, since they both see things in extreme black & white terms, they actually share most elements of their worldview.

No, the threat to hardliners is the mushy middle. The pacifists on both sides who would rather talk, and build schools, hospitals and make life better for Israelis and Palestinians. Where's the profit and power in that? You keep power by keeping people afraid.
2012-11-16 12:19:59 PM
6 votes:
bokertov.typepad.com

/stokes the fire
2012-11-16 12:13:42 PM
6 votes:

HotIgneous Intruder: oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.


Gaza Strip population has tripled since 1995.

WORST. GENOCIDE. EVAR.
2012-11-16 12:04:51 PM
6 votes:
Should we really use the img1.fark.net if the breaking news is 5000 years old?
2012-11-16 12:03:21 PM
5 votes:
Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham. They are literally fighting each other in the name of the same God.
2012-11-16 11:59:00 AM
5 votes:
Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw
2012-11-16 01:06:29 PM
4 votes:

Epicedion: Lunaville: Given the existence of organizations like Jews for Justice for Palestinians (Link), I think that view demonstrates a lack of imagination.

The ASPCA lobbies for animal rights, but that doesn't mean that the animals themselves have any power to push for them.


Palestinians are not animals. They are human beings blessed with intelligence and imagination. Your profile doesn't make any statements about your personal beliefs. So, I'm going to risk suggesting that you read the book of Esther for inspiration on how someone, such as a woman during a decidedly non-feminist point in history, who is relatively devalued and powerless can be influential. There is no need to read it expecting to be converted if you do not approve of faith. Just read it as you would a piece of secular literature and ask yourself these questions. Is any adult every truly powerless? What does it mean to use the power one does have rather than decry the power one lacks? How might that work?

Please, accept my apology if my suggestion that you read a portion of a bible is offensive to you.
2012-11-16 12:17:35 PM
4 votes:

CokeBear: Hamas wants to ensure that Bibi is re-elected in the upcoming election. As a radical hardliner, he helps their cause immensely.

If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out, which is obviously not in their interests.

So the logical thing for them to do is exactly what they are doing, be as threatening and aggressive as possible, in order to ensure that their fellow hard-line loonies stay in power in Israel. They recognize that the real threat to extremists is not the extremists on the other side, since they both see things in extreme black & white terms, they actually share most elements of their worldview.

No, the threat to hardliners is the mushy middle. The pacifists on both sides who would rather talk, and build schools, hospitals and make life better for Israelis and Palestinians. Where's the profit and power in that? You keep power by keeping people afraid.


Hamas is only in power because the Israeli government/army is extremely abusive to Palestinians. Israel isn't solely to blame, but their continued expansion and segregation/discrimination against Palestinians contributes heavily to the problem.
rmz
2012-11-16 12:08:45 PM
4 votes:

mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.


Having the technology to make weapons is different than having a moral excuse (or imperative) to kill those you disagree with. Science doesn't have much to do with the latter.
2012-11-16 12:04:32 PM
4 votes:

bostonguy: /subby
// American Israeli who left Tel Aviv to crash at a friend's place in Jerusalem after hearing a rocket explode from his apartment
/// Isn't that ironic
//// No, not really, Alanis

Sorry. Fark keeps me company right now. :)


Stay safe, subby!
2012-11-16 12:03:39 PM
4 votes:
dpsshow.com
2012-11-16 12:55:40 PM
3 votes:

nmemkha: bostonguy: Just to give people an objective feeling of what it feels like to be a random person in Israel. (And I've love to hear such similar, objective thoughts from anyone in Gaza.)

You hear a siren. You go to your safe room, the stairwell of your building, a local bomb shelter, or you lie on the ground against a south-facing wall and cover your head. You wait. A few minutes later, you hear a "boom." It will be loud or faint depending on how far away the impact was and whether it was a hit or an Iron Dome interception. You wait a few more minutes to be sure, and then you return to going about your daily life. Rinse and repeat.

If you live in the outskirts of the rocket range (at the moment), like in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, this happens, say, once per day. If you live in Sderot or elsewhere close to Gaza, it happens every hour or every few hours.

I bet its a lot like that in Gaza except their is no safe room or siren.


That and Gaza doesn't have a missle defense system.

That being said, no one deserves to go through this and it doesn't help that both Israel and Gaza have dickbags for leaders.
2012-11-16 12:44:58 PM
3 votes:
2012-11-16 12:42:53 PM
3 votes:

kindms: This is BS.

Bibi f-ing assassinated the head of Hamas Security forces just the other day. That guy was working with others to get a ceasefire done. Bibi's extra judicial assassination is what touched off the latest round of fighting.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered - gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline



Electronic Intifada, huh? Sounds objective to me.

The revisionist history has already begun on this one. NOTHING WAS HAPPENING BEFORE THAT AIRSTRIKE!!! Ahmed Jabari was handing out Unicorn foals to orphans when he was targeted!
2012-11-16 12:35:15 PM
3 votes:

Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."


You seem to have missed out the rather critical "Don't you dare react as we steal your land, bulldoze your homes, perform a string of extra-judicial executions, kill your civilians, and destroy any chance of you operating a functional economy" first part of Israel's position.
2012-11-16 12:34:55 PM
3 votes:

Lunaville: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

Actually, the British shoved aside the Palestinians to form Israel with the consent of the USA. Palestine was British territory. To my knowledge, the only group that questioned the wisdom of shunting a huge percentage of Europes' Jewish population into Palestine at that time were the Quakers. And they didn't have really have an alternative solution to offer other than pushing to allow for more refugee entry into the United Kingdom and the United States which was hotly opposed at that time.

I do wonder why Hamas so rarely denounces Britain? And America? I mean, I know that they do, but by comparison to what they dump on Israel, it seems so subdued. Maybe it's a distance and perspective thing creating what is really, on my part, a misconception. It's hard to judge.


The British totally trolled the Palestinians. They were supposed to be given their independence following WWI, in exchange for the Palestinians rising up against the Ottomans. Instead, their land was given to the Israelis, and many have lived in camps for several generations in various other Muslim countries. They've been screwed for the last hundred years. Now they are being used as meatshields by Assad to keep Israel out of the Syrian civil war.
2012-11-16 12:30:45 PM
3 votes:
Here's the quick history from what I posted in a prior thread. Note: No side -- the Jews, the Arabs, and the Palestinians are blameless (though some a lot more than others):

Quick history: There had always been some Jews living among the Arabs in the Ottoman Empire's province of Palestine for centuries. Starting in the nineteenth century, more and more Jews began moving to the region and buying land from Arabs or moving into empty, desolate, unused land. Eventually, after World War I and the British gaining control, the UN proposed splitting the area into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews agreed; the Arabs did not and declared war.

In the ensuing chaos of war, many Arabs ended up in what is now called the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Some of them left voluntarily either to avoid the war or under orders from the Arab leaders to get out of the way of the invading armies. Others were indeed forcibly expelled by the Haganah (what would become the IDF). It's impossible to know what percentage of the relocation was voluntary and involuntary. Anyway, it happened.

So, you had a bunch of Arabs in what were then parts of Jordan and Egypt. When those countries invaded Israel in 1967, Israel won and took those lands from the two countries for increased future security. Today, Jordan has said that it no longer wants the West Bank, and Egypt does not want Gaza. Under international law, the ownership of the land transferred to Israel because the original owners, the countries, gave up their claims.

Of course, those pieces of land still had a lot of the aforementioned Arabs and now their descendants. What to do? Answer that, and you'll get a Nobel Prize.
2012-11-16 12:23:33 PM
3 votes:

Lunaville: I'm trying to remain rational and make an honest effort to understand the issues involved in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. However, I am beginning to feel that Hamas and Netanyahu are the common enemies of the Palestinian and Israeli people. Each inflicts violence on civilians. Neither considers non-violent options at any stage. Both perpetuate injustices and respond to violence and injustice with their own acts of violence and injustice which achieves the same dismal result over and over again.
Maybe Jews for Peace and pro-peace Palestinians will have to form an Occupy Peace movement or something. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but it certainly isn't war. The time and resources wasted in devotion to war are time and resources that could be put into finding a real answer.


Hamas:
Step 1: Build Missile Launch site in apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and mosques.
Step 2. Launch missiles at the hated Joos
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Die horribly when the Joos destroy the missile sites

There is no profit, unless you're the company selling the smart bombs, UAVs, fighter jets etc etc to the Joos.

Basically stop shooting rockets, and Israel will stop shooting places that rockets are coming from.

Oh and Egypt? Go fark a goat. You can't even keep your own shiat in order.
2012-11-16 12:08:42 PM
3 votes:

mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.


Well it's 1:00 PM here and this is the new front runner for dumbest thing I've read all day.
2012-11-16 12:04:58 PM
3 votes:

Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw


Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.
2012-11-18 05:43:48 PM
2 votes:

RobTheNerd: Where are the flashing news tags for every one of scores of missiles Israel pounds into Palestinian civilian buildings?

It's a newsflash when Hamas lands a bottle rocket in a street, but what happens when Israel drones takes out four children? Nothing.


Lol wut?

Its precisely because of the extensive coverage of every israeli response that Hamas keeps goading them.

Hamas strategy:

1. Launch a bunch of rockets into Israel
2. Hide those responsible in hospitals, schools, orphanages, any place that can evoke an emotional response if it takes collateral damage.
3. Wait until Israel, despite its best efforts to avoid civilian deaths, injures or kills one of Hamas' human shields, or someone nearby who is photogenic.
4. Take LOTS of photos and videos of the injured human shield, children, old women, anything that those not informed about the conflict would look at and have a knee-jerk "THATS HORRIBLE, HOW COULD THEY??" reaction, release to the news media, and Israel's public opinion worldwide drops a bit.
5. Repeat.

This is their goal right now (one of them) - to goad israel into killing a few civillians, no matter how many hamas terrorists are killed too. Its the civillian deaths Hamas wants, and needs and mines for public opinion.

But anyone who has been following along realizes how these deaths are precious to Hamas for PR, and exactly what hamas is striving for. The only chance they have is to manipulate the manipulatable with these made-for-tv newsbites of "israeli attrocities" that would have had zero chance of happening if Hamas hadn't done everything it could to make that scenario play out.

Israel, to its credit, has been remarkable restrained - but I am sensing they are about to say "fark it, this is getting old. " - but they've been targeting symbols of Hamas authority, trying to demoralize Hamas supporters, and weaken Hamas politically, instead of just killing everyone.

Turn things around - give Hamas ALL of Israel's technology, and limit Israel to only Hamas' current technology - do you think Hamas would be as restrained? Of course not. Hamas would not hesitate to nuke Israel. Not for a moment.

There is no symmetry here. Israel has been a nation as currently constituted longer than what, 30 or so other countries that are currently recognized as nations? They aren't "occupiers" any more than the english descendants of New Zealand, or the European descendants in the US are an occupiers. They are a recognized nation that is continually attacked by enemies striving to eliminate if for philospohical and religious reasons, and a hatred that actually gives them identity. It's extremely hard to combat that sort of generational derpiness. Israel's response has been extremely restrained, imho.
2012-11-16 09:23:16 PM
2 votes:

Amurica...Fark Ya!: Awww....sorry to shiat all over your fairy tales/fables. Do some reading over the weekend about actual history, you might be surprised what you will find.

/have my masters in world history
//looks like you have a masters in hurrrrrrrr and durrrrrrrr


*sigh* Look, genius, I don't care if world religions are real. If Jerusalem gets hit, I mean really hit, then America will invade, the Islamic nations will invade, and Israel will break out the nukes, all in the name of Yaweh.

You might be an atheist, but other people believe in and act on religion whether or not you hate god. And I'm seriously doubting you're an atheist for any other reason given your inane post, because if you actually have a master's in world history you really should know better.
2012-11-16 07:22:56 PM
2 votes:

BolloxReader: Lunaville: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

Actually, the British shoved aside the Palestinians to form Israel with the consent of the USA. Palestine was British territory. To my knowledge, the only group that questioned the wisdom of shunting a huge percentage of Europes' Jewish population into Palestine at that time were the Quakers. And they didn't have really have an alternative solution to offer other than pushing to allow for more refugee entry into the United Kingdom and the United States which was hotly opposed at that time.

I do wonder why Hamas so rarely denounces Britain? And America? I mean, I know that they do, but by comparison to what they dump on Israel, it seems so subdued. Maybe it's a distance and perspective thing creating what is really, on my part, a misconception. It's hard to judge.

The British totally trolled the Palestinians. They were supposed to be given their independence following WWI, in exchange for the Palestinians rising up against the Ottomans. Instead, their land was given to the Israelis, and many have lived in camps for several generations in various other Muslim countries. They've been screwed for the last hundred years. Now they are being used as meatshields by Assad to keep Israel out of the Syrian civil war.


The Jews and Arabs lived side by side during the British protectorate and up to the founding of Israel. Arabs fled when five Arab countries invaded in 1947, and again when Israel pre-emptively attacked to stop a second multi-Arab-country invasion in 1967. Palestinian Arabs were pushed into refugee camps by Jordan, Syria and Egypt before '67, and didn't come under Israeli occupation until after the Six-Day War.

That said, the West Bank settlements are a really stupid idea and should all be pushed back behind the Green Line so that the Palestinian Arabs can have a state. Just complete the security barrier, pull all Israelis out of the rest of the West Bank and say, there, Palestine, there are your borders. Go to it.
2012-11-16 04:08:34 PM
2 votes:
i1182.photobucket.com
2012-11-16 03:54:59 PM
2 votes:

nmemkha: Danger Mouse: nmemkha: Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham. They are literally fighting each other in the name of the same God.

Except the Christians and the Jews aren't the ones doing the fighting.

/religion of peice

Judaism is a religion of piece. They want a this piece of Gaza, that piece of the West Bank.


If you disarmed the Palistines, you would have peace. If you disarmed the jews, there would be a genocide.
2012-11-16 01:39:36 PM
2 votes:

RanDomino: give me doughnuts
Gaza Strip population has tripled since 1995.

80% of the population is refugees.


Only if you, like the UN, count the children and grandchildren of refugees displaced before 1948 (and a few more in 1967) as refugees.

For everywhere except Palestine, the UN's definition of refugee is Individuals who:

-are outside their country of nationality or habitual residence;
- have a well-founded fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion; and
-are unable or unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution.


Not the children or grandchildren of those individuals. If you want to blame somebody for the plight of the Palestinians, blame Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.
2012-11-16 01:14:39 PM
2 votes:

Galloping Galoshes: You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."


And the Palestinian position is "Give back the land you stole from us and stop bombing us and we won't need to shoot back!"
2012-11-16 12:59:52 PM
2 votes:

CokeBear: Hamas wants to ensure that Bibi is re-elected in the upcoming election. As a radical hardliner, he helps their cause immensely.

If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out, which is obviously not in their interests.

So the logical thing for them to do is exactly what they are doing, be as threatening and aggressive as possible, in order to ensure that their fellow hard-line loonies stay in power in Israel. They recognize that the real threat to extremists is not the extremists on the other side, since they both see things in extreme black & white terms, they actually share most elements of their worldview.

No, the threat to hardliners is the mushy middle. The pacifists on both sides who would rather talk, and build schools, hospitals and make life better for Israelis and Palestinians. Where's the profit and power in that? You keep power by keeping people afraid.


Pretty much. These guys also really do hate each other so much (the radicals on both sides) that ANY peace is an affront to them. Heck, a cease fire is anathema to them. They're "freedom fighters" and "valiant defenders", which carries mystique and respect. They don't want to lose that, and will do whatever it takes to keep that recognition.

The only way to win is for the world to refuse to play with either nutty group. I know, our team likes X and the other team likes Y. I wonder how quickly these idiots would quit if both sides stopped getting outside help at all.
2012-11-16 12:53:50 PM
2 votes:

bostonguy: Just to give people an objective feeling of what it feels like to be a random person in Israel. (And I've love to hear such similar, objective thoughts from anyone in Gaza.)

You hear a siren. You go to your safe room, the stairwell of your building, a local bomb shelter, or you lie on the ground against a south-facing wall and cover your head. You wait. A few minutes later, you hear a "boom." It will be loud or faint depending on how far away the impact was and whether it was a hit or an Iron Dome interception. You wait a few more minutes to be sure, and then you return to going about your daily life. Rinse and repeat.

If you live in the outskirts of the rocket range (at the moment), like in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, this happens, say, once per day. If you live in Sderot or elsewhere close to Gaza, it happens every hour or every few hours.


I bet its a lot like that in Gaza except their is no safe room or siren.
2012-11-16 12:53:38 PM
2 votes:
My personal opinion is that we blow up every religious site in Jerusalem. Then the idiots won't have a religious excuse for their violence. It'll just be what it really is: financial, political, social, racial conflict.
2012-11-16 12:49:07 PM
2 votes:
give me doughnuts
Gaza Strip population has tripled since 1995.

80% of the population is refugees.


bostonguy
Of course, those pieces of land still had a lot of the aforementioned Arabs and now their descendants. What to do? Answer that, and you'll get a Nobel Prize.

Either incorporate them as full citizens or let them have a viable state. Either of which can only be done unilaterally by Israel.


BolloxReader
The British totally trolled the Palestinians. They were supposed to be given their independence following WWI, in exchange for the Palestinians rising up against the Ottomans. Instead, their land was given to the Israelis

One of those many wonderful intractable internecine conflicts the British Empire left behind to ensure the locals would be too busy killing each other to come and get revenge- like Northern Ireland, India-Pakistan, half of Africa, arguably the American North vs South although US vs Canada may have been intended...
2012-11-16 12:44:41 PM
2 votes:

Bungles: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

You seem to have missed out the rather critical "Don't you dare react as we steal your land, bulldoze your homes, perform a string of extra-judicial executions, kill your civilians, and destroy any chance of you operating a functional economy" first part of Israel's position.


While all of what you say is absolutely true, launching rockets pell-mell into Israel is not akin to marching to the sea to make salt. I can not imagine a worse possible way to deal with Israeli perpetuated injustices than resorting to violence.
2012-11-16 12:40:53 PM
2 votes:

BolloxReader: Lunaville: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

Actually, the British shoved aside the Palestinians to form Israel with the consent of the USA. Palestine was British territory. To my knowledge, the only group that questioned the wisdom of shunting a huge percentage of Europes' Jewish population into Palestine at that time were the Quakers. And they didn't have really have an alternative solution to offer other than pushing to allow for more refugee entry into the United Kingdom and the United States which was hotly opposed at that time.

I do wonder why Hamas so rarely denounces Britain? And America? I mean, I know that they do, but by comparison to what they dump on Israel, it seems so subdued. Maybe it's a distance and perspective thing creating what is really, on my part, a misconception. It's hard to judge.

The British totally trolled the Palestinians. They were supposed to be given their independence following WWI, in exchange for the Palestinians rising up against the Ottomans. Instead, their land was given to the Israelis, and many have lived in camps for several generations in various other Muslim countries. They've been screwed for the last hundred years. Now they are being used as meatshields by Assad to keep Israel out of the Syrian civil war.


The English left because terrorists like Menachem Begin, head of the Irgun, blew up the Kind David Hotel, assassinated the UN Middle East envoy and threatened a terror campaign in the UK.

The Irgun was denounced by individuals like Albert Einstein and numerous Jewish organizations. To punish Begin, he was elected prime minister of Israel. Netanyahu's party is a direct descendant of the Irgun.
2012-11-16 12:37:23 PM
2 votes:

moops: Israel should now invade Gaza, and not leave until they've liquidated every single Hamas member.


You can't liquidate the dream of a Palestinian state unless you liquidate all the Palestinians. Hopefully you are not advocating genocide.
2012-11-16 12:35:39 PM
2 votes:

ChipNASA: TATS


The whiny little douche finally put the last active Farker on his hilariously oversized ignore list. When he next logged in and saw zero comments, he thought the place shut down and moved on.

That's my theory anyways.
2012-11-16 12:25:19 PM
2 votes:
Saladin: Will you yield the city?
Balian of Ibelin: Before I lose it, I will burn it to the ground. Your holy places - ours. Every last thing in Jerusalem that drives men mad.
Saladin: I wonder if it would not be better if you did.

- Kindom of Heaven. Awesome movie.
2012-11-16 12:23:15 PM
2 votes:

Free Radical: If Romney had won we'd be gearing up for war.

/glad he didn't


Glad he didn't too, just because he wouldn't be able to avoid saying something stupid and unnecessary as the President-Elect.

On the other hand, we could be headed for a war anyway. I seriously doubt that this will end without Israel rolling tanks into Gaza, and if Egypt actually follows through with their statement of support and also deploys forces in Gaza then it's a war. If the conflict becomes real/intense and/or other countries step in to assist then our ass runs to Israel's rescue (provided they don't unleash hell and end it in 48 hours), and we're embroiled once again in a war that is better solved by telling the Israelites that we will no longer protect them unless they live inside the US borders, and offer them some of our abundant land.
2012-11-16 12:22:11 PM
2 votes:

tolallorti: Hamas is only in power because the Israeli government/army is extremely abusive to Palestinians. Israel isn't solely to blame, but their continued expansion and segregation/discrimination against Palestinians contributes heavily to the problem


What happened right before Hamas was elected in Gaza?
Israel pulled all their people out (some by force).

wantingout: HotIgneous Intruder: oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.

///and only an anti-semite would disagree! :-)


Only an anti semite would accuse Israel of Genocide when the population in Gaza, and of arabs in ISrael is growing faster than the jewish population.

Unless you can come up with some other reason you would tell blatant lies about the country.
2012-11-16 12:21:54 PM
2 votes:

Galloping Galoshes: nmemkha: Well kiss any global economic recovery goodbye if this escalates.

Why? Wars are always good for manufacturing and increasing employment.


That's a myth. Every war throughout history has had a negative effect on the economy. The only apparent exception were the World Wars. There was a boom following them and it is easy to understand might look to that and say "Look, there were two awful wars and, then, our economy leaped ahead." But it isn't true that the leap was due to war. The leap was due to unprecedented government investment in science and research. War takes economies down. Science and research investment increase the health and strength of an economy. And that science and research need not be dedicated to the machines of war. Investment dollars go even further when they are invested in projects that result in nifty new things like the internet, or medicine, or war-preventing green energy sources.
2012-11-16 12:21:44 PM
2 votes:

HotIgneous Intruder: oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.


"Never Forget" wasn't supposed to mean "so you can later apply those tactics yourself", Israel.
2012-11-16 12:20:58 PM
2 votes:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. There is turmoil in the middle east!? When did this happen!?
2012-11-16 12:14:03 PM
2 votes:

bostonguy: /subby
// American Israeli who left Tel Aviv to crash at a friend's place in Jerusalem after hearing a rocket explode from his apartment
/// Isn't that ironic
//// No, not really, Alanis

Sorry. Fark keeps me company right now. :)


Keep yer head down and stay safe, Subby. When the explosions stop and you can get out, have a roadside felafel for me. (Visited Israel back in 1989 and STILL crave those sumbiatches.) In the meantime, have a little TF on me to keep you company.
2012-11-16 12:12:51 PM
2 votes:

SpectroBoy:
Why? War is GREAT for the economy. (real, declared war, not prolonged bulls!t wars).


3.bp.blogspot.com
2012-11-16 12:12:42 PM
2 votes:
Hamas... they are tricky. Putting a launch site near the playground makes the Jews be pretty damned accurate to avoid dead kids.

kleinonline.wnd.com
2012-11-16 12:12:35 PM
2 votes:

mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.


That's one of the dumbest things I've read in an Middle East war thread in a long time.

There is "truth in the guns don't kill people, I do" bumper sticker. Here's a hint. People with knowledge and Science aren't going to kill people on their own. They need some sort of motivation. Hrmm, like, say, fanatical religions zealots? Ya, that'll do just fine.
2012-11-16 12:11:26 PM
2 votes:
HotIgneous Intruder: oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.

///and only an anti-semite would disagree! :-)
2012-11-16 12:10:48 PM
2 votes:

CokeBear: Hamas wants to ensure that Bibi is re-elected in the upcoming election. As a radical hardliner, he helps their cause immensely.

If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out, which is obviously not in their interests.

So the logical thing for them to do is exactly what they are doing, be as threatening and aggressive as possible, in order to ensure that their fellow hard-line loonies stay in power in Israel. They recognize that the real threat to extremists is not the extremists on the other side, since they both see things in extreme black & white terms, they actually share most elements of their worldview.

No, the threat to hardliners is the mushy middle. The pacifists on both sides who would rather talk, and build schools, hospitals and make life better for Israelis and Palestinians. Where's the profit and power in that? You keep power by keeping people afraid.


This is BS.

Bibi f-ing assassinated the head of Hamas Security forces just the other day. That guy was working with others to get a ceasefire done. Bibi's extra judicial assassination is what touched off the latest round of fighting.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered - gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline
2012-11-16 12:09:37 PM
2 votes:
CokeBear: "No, the threat to hardliners is the mushy middle. The pacifists on both sides who would rather talk, and build schools, hospitals and make life better for Israelis and Palestinians. Where's the profit and power in that?"

This.
Though I would clarify and underline a part I think you just left implied: "Where's the profit and power *for a hardliner* in that?"
Plenty of people can amass power and profit given a peaceful solution.
They just aren't the ones who go on about crushing things beneath their boot-heels.

That said, I have a hard time feeling pity for the mushy middle of voters, if they're still swayed by hardliner nonsense after generations of hardliner nonsense has failed.
2012-11-16 12:07:49 PM
2 votes:
Religious people do not get pissed when attacked by member of other religions, they get genocidal.
2012-11-16 12:07:38 PM
2 votes:
I love Egypt's take on it- what the hell, guys! Why aren't you letting them fire rockets at you?!
2012-11-16 12:07:26 PM
2 votes:
Why does this warrant the use of the newsflash tag?

Also: 

t2.gstatic.com
2012-11-16 12:05:42 PM
2 votes:

moops: Israel should now invade Gaza, and not leave until they've liquidated every single Hamas member.


how do you do that? with a centrifuge?
2012-11-16 12:05:23 PM
2 votes:
Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes
2012-11-16 12:05:15 PM
2 votes:
I didn't think you could swing a dead cat without hitting something religious to someone around there
2012-11-16 12:04:28 PM
2 votes:

nmemkha: Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham. They are literally fighting each other in the name of the same God.


Uh, it's more like one of them is fighting the other two, and often themselves when individual sects disagree.
2012-11-16 12:03:54 PM
2 votes:
So one side has some rockets whose operating instructions are basically "light fuse, aim away from face," and the other side has UAVs, tanks, guided weaponry, and missile shields.

www.specktra.net
I can't wait to find out how this turns out. The suspense is killing me.
2012-11-16 12:00:34 PM
2 votes:
/subby
// American Israeli who left Tel Aviv to crash at a friend's place in Jerusalem after hearing a rocket explode from his apartment
/// Isn't that ironic
//// No, not really, Alanis

Sorry. Fark keeps me company right now. :)
2012-11-17 11:12:31 AM
1 votes:
Yeah yesterday I was getting out of the shower and I had to rush to put on my pants.

I was forced by terrorists to put on pants.

FARK YOU HAMAS.
2012-11-17 05:23:21 AM
1 votes:
Where are the flashing news tags for every one of scores of missiles Israel pounds into Palestinian civilian buildings?

It's a newsflash when Hamas lands a bottle rocket in a street, but what happens when Israel drones takes out four children? Nothing.
2012-11-17 03:08:42 AM
1 votes:
The UK is taking the lead on backing the Syrian rebels and the BBC has been reporting it.

Link
2012-11-16 05:44:35 PM
1 votes:

A Shambling Mound: fluffy2097: ALL HAIL ATHEISM! WORSHIPERS OF SCIENCE! THE TRUE RELIGION OF PEACE!

[whybecausescience.files.wordpress.com image 450x338]

lol. peaceful science. riiiight.

For my own sanity I'm going to pretend that you're not really that stupid.


Science doesn't kill.

On the other hand, quite a few "scientists" have done some pretty obscene shiat in the interests of furthering their fields of study, regardless of whether or not those fields are legitimate. See: eugenics, German medical experiments on concentration camp prisoners, the US government testing drugs on prisoners without informed consent, Thomas Edison proposing electricity as a method of execution, Soviets using psychiatric wards to trump up diagnoses to silence political and religious dissidents, etc.

Anything, and I mean ANYTHING carried out without moderation or concern for others is dangerous. Scientific inquiry, religious worship, governance, you name it.
2012-11-16 04:58:18 PM
1 votes:
At the rate things are going, I could see this getting quite out-of-hand in the next week. While we're enjoying a nice Thanksgiving dinner with family and friends here in the US next week, Israel may well be occupying Gaza and possibly southern Lebanon if Hezbollah decides to join in on the rocket-lobbing. It wouldn't surprise me to see several wrecked nuclear sites in Iran, either.

Hamas had to go and rile 'em all up, my bet is the IDF goes all "Roadhouse" on Hamas and anyone else who is significantly pissing them off lately.

/ROADHOUSE!
2012-11-16 04:52:48 PM
1 votes:

bostonguy: A related reason is that Israel, as described, has become a solid, center-right country as a result of the Gaza Disengagement, which as recent events show, was an utter mistake.


The disengagement wasn't the mistake...the mistake was in its utter clusterfark of an execution, followed up by outright refusing to deal with the (freely and fairly) elected Hamas government. As others have pointed out -- and has been demonstrated to be true, time and again, regardless of nationality or circumstance -- extremism feeds off extremism. And moreover, legitimacy forces moderation, which in turn discredits extremism. That goes both ways. Had there been at least a good faith attempt by the Quartet and Israel to enter negotiations with the Hamas government as a legitimate, democratic, authority, Hamas may have found itself in a position (and with reason) to police its extremism and moderate itself on behalf of its people.
2012-11-16 04:39:22 PM
1 votes:
This one goes out to Amos Q.

In my country there is problem,
And that problem is transport.
It take very very long,
Because Kazakhstan is big.

Throw transport down the well
So my country can be free
We must make travel easy
Then we'll have a big party

In my country there is problem
And that problem is the Jew
They take everybody money
And they never give it back

Throw the jew down the well
So my country can be free
You must grab him by his horns
Then we have a big party

If you see the Jew coming
You must be carefull of his teeth
You must grab him by his money
And I tell you what to do

Throw the jew down the well
So my country can be free
You must grab him by his horns
Then we have a big party
2012-11-16 04:33:55 PM
1 votes:
Let them blow each other to atoms. That's all they've been doing over there for the last 2,000 years. Nothing anyone can do will end it.
2012-11-16 04:27:31 PM
1 votes:
Can the US, Russia and China finally cooperate to do some good? Give everyone 30 days to leave, then plaster the region with nukes. Problem solved, permanently.
2012-11-16 04:25:49 PM
1 votes:
ghostwind: 2012-11-16 01:36:30 PM
(deleted: Attempting to start a flamewar)


All references to Tatsuma are now banned on fark? great...
2012-11-16 03:52:13 PM
1 votes:

Quick Fixer: Amos Quito: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT :

[Derp]

...yes, Amos you and Deuteronomy

Wait... There are meat-trees in Israel?

Maybe there is something worth fighting over over there...


Well, yeeaah? They've taxonomied them an' everything, duh:

www.yongsshin.com

It's called the Holy Land, dude... they've got everything.

NSFW Example

/different type of meat
2012-11-16 03:18:58 PM
1 votes:
And the Germans killed the Jews
And the Jews killed the Arabs
And the Arabs killed the hostages
And that is the news
And is it any wonder
That the monkey's confused
He said Mama Mama
The President's a fool
Why do I have to keep reading
These technical manuals
And the joint chiefs of staff
And the brokers on Wall Street said
Don't make us laugh
You're a smart kid
Time is linear
Memory is a stranger
History is for fools
Man is a tool in the hands
Of the great God Almighty
And they gave him command
Of a nuclear submarine
And sent him back in search of
The Garden of Eden
2012-11-16 02:48:38 PM
1 votes:

Lunaville: that bosnian sniper: bostonguy: Quoted for factual accuracy.

Well, maybe the Israelis need to get out and farking vote instead of letting the right-wing fundies in their own country dictate the terms of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Seriously, people act almost as if Likud was re-elected in a vacuum. Israeli turnout in the last couple elections has been just about the lowest it's ever been.

I hope I don't exhibit my vast ignorance here, but as I understand it Israeli politics are complicated by the fact that Israel allows duel citizenship. So, a person may be both American and Israeli with full voting rights in each country. This allows people, who do not normally reside in Israel to fly over, skew the outcome of the election, then fly home again exempt from the consequences of their vote. I assume any inaccuracies in my description will be corrected by someone on the thread who is actually Jewish and/or Israeli.


You're accurate. I'm a dual citizen and can vote in the United States and Israel. But for Israel, there are no absentee ballots. You need to be here to vote. And I doubt many people will spend $1,500 or more to fly here, vote, and go back. I've never heard of that at all, let alone en masse.
2012-11-16 02:40:12 PM
1 votes:

Seraphym: SurfaceTension: You know, if only Israel had performed airstrikes this week in Gaza and killed the leader of the military portion of Hamas, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

/oh, wait
//don't worry, Israel, you'll strike back and THAT time, for sure, without a doubt, will work because it has to at SOME point, right?
///how about trying something different for a change?

You know, people always trot out this same exact statement, over and over, and it's farking retarded:

1) Israel has been not striking back after HUNDREDS of rocket attacks prior to what was obviously the proverbial straw on the camel's back - how's that for "different" and "peace-seaking?" Just because the international media essentially ignores posting anything about the ongoing barrage of rockets, cross-border infiltrations and attacks from Gaza anywhere forward of "page 10 in the paper" (in a 1 paragraph blurb) doesn't mean they don't happen.

Do some farking research or pay more attention, and quit posting that little 4-month span of "only a few rockets" chart from 2008 - you know, 4½ YEARS AGO? Read. Through. These. Articles. about the 2500+ ROCKETS AND MORTARS FIRED SINCE THAT FARKING CHART. And that chart spiked because it never hit 0 to begin with.

2) The "You know the Palestinians are going to fire rockets at you some more, Israel, so why don't you try something different?" argument also begs the question that the Palestinians have no other choice but to spend their money and time to build more rockets to fire at civilians, no matter how much their aim sucks. Why do you idiots who claim Israel's the one who has to try new tactics (which they've done, multiple times) treat the Palestinians like they are some dumb animals who only respond to impulse with violence... aren't they people too, who can choose to "try something different?" Why do you useful idiots continually not give the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt that they too can choose to invest in peace instead of war?

Their ...


usneakydevilu.files.wordpress.com 

Pretty much this.
2012-11-16 02:04:11 PM
1 votes:

Seraphym: SurfaceTension: You know, if only Israel had performed airstrikes this week in Gaza and killed the leader of the military portion of Hamas, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

/oh, wait
//don't worry, Israel, you'll strike back and THAT time, for sure, without a doubt, will work because it has to at SOME point, right?
///how about trying something different for a change?

You know, people always trot out this same exact statement, over and over, and it's farking retarded:

1) Israel has been not striking back after HUNDREDS of rocket attacks prior to what was obviously the proverbial straw on the camel's back - how's that for "different" and "peace-seaking?" Just because the international media essentially ignores posting anything about the ongoing barrage of rockets, cross-border infiltrations and attacks from Gaza anywhere forward of "page 10 in the paper" (in a 1 paragraph blurb) doesn't mean they don't happen.

Do some farking research or pay more attention, and quit posting that little 4-month span of "only a few rockets" chart from 2008 - you know, 4½ YEARS AGO? Read. Through. These. Articles. about the 2500+ ROCKETS AND MORTARS FIRED SINCE THAT FARKING CHART. And that chart spiked because it never hit 0 to begin with.

2) The "You know the Palestinians are going to fire rockets at you some more, Israel, so why don't you try something different?" argument also begs the question that the Palestinians have no other choice but to spend their money and time to build more rockets to fire at civilians, no matter how much their aim sucks. Why do you idiots who claim Israel's the one who has to try new tactics (which they've done, multiple times) treat the Palestinians like they are some dumb animals who only respond to impulse with violence... aren't they people too, who can choose to "try something different?" Why do you useful idiots continually not give the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt that they too can choose to invest in peace instead of war?

Their leaders, Hamas, who they elected, who then proceeded to kill off Fatah (who runs the West Bank) members to gain total power in Gaza, are the worst enemies of any rational, peace-seeking Gazan Palestinian. But you farking morons don't ever assume these people have any free will of their own, except to fight Israel. How about they fight Hamas who turns their lives into total shiat, instead? Why do you never provide THAT as a "try something else" option for the region?

I suspect it's because, for most of you, you'd applaud the day where the only stable, prosperous, technologically-advanced, multi-ethnical and diverse-religion (there are over 1 million Muslim citizens in Israel, 16+% of population, who enjoy full rights under law) democracy in the entire middle east were forced to collapse. Just go ahead and admit it (well, many of you do).

Quit treating the Palestinians like dumb brutes with no options of their own just so you can justify supporting your desire to see Israel gone one day.

/rant


This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This .
2012-11-16 01:29:26 PM
1 votes:

CokeBear: The real issue here is that Hamas wants to influence the Israeli election to keep Bibi in power. They are extremists, and the only thing they hate more than extreme right-wing Israelis are moderate/left-wing Israelis who might restart the peace process. Hamas (and Bibi) are enemies of peace, and share the objective of keeping the conflict going, and keeping each other in power.

Anyone other than Bibi winning the Israeli election would put Hamas' power at grave risk of being replaced by more moderate folks, as such, they are determined to enrage the Israeli population into re-electing Bibi and taking the risk of peace off the table.

The only question is: Will Israelis fall for it?


Any reason you continue to make this exact same post over and over in the same thread ?

Bibi assassinated their guy. So Bibi decided to piss off hamas right before the election. So what makes more sense bibi kills guy knowing what the reaction will be just before the election. The reaction that you site above that helps him and his party.

Or Hamas just randomly decides to start shiat right before the election and it just so happens one of their top guys was assassinated ?
2012-11-16 01:23:54 PM
1 votes:

shastacola: KellyX: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

Cause yea, blowing up Hamas' military leader wouldn't count as not shooting first and the "No Fight Back!" rule applies as well.

Clearly Israel is the victim here...

Who in their right mind defends Hamas?


http://www.hrw.org/node/110517


Not about defending them, frankly don't give a shiat about them, but I can look at it from an outside perspective that if someone kills one of your leaders to not act all surprised when they retaliate and then try to justify wanting to invade based on that retaliation.

But honestly both sides want this fight... so fark it, just get it over with, just don't try to drag the United States into it if the rest of the Islamic/Arab world uses it to justify attacking Israel again.
2012-11-16 01:22:55 PM
1 votes:

FitzShivering: Baelz:
Hamas:
Step 1: Build Missile Launch site in apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and mosques.
Step 2. Launch missiles at the hated Joos
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Die horribly when the Joos destroy the missile sites

There is no profit, unless you're the company selling the smart bombs, UAVs, fighter jets etc etc to the Joos.


While I sympathize with the point you're making, it's not entirely accurate. There is a lot of profit in it for Hamas, and virtually every other "group" over there. Just as we in the United States funds various groups to destabilize nations and areas, so do a lot of other governments and terrorist groups finance Hamas, et. al., to do whatever they can to destabilize the region.

Despite my absolute lack of respect for Hamas, I will speak a little bit of blasphemy and say we in the West are far too willing to ignore the good things they do. Those schools and hospitals that they've put the missiles in are in large part not there without their presence. They've done a lot to help the poor. But, as with anything, their more militant wing makes them look absolutely atrocious.

In other words, a lot like us, there's a part of Hamas that is actually good, and that the people there look up to, and that part has earned that respect. There's another part that is as awful as Al Qaeda and should indeed be on the official Terrorist list, and that's the one doing the shiat currently going on.

But, they're smart enough to play the media game now. Like any government, when they do something stupid/aggressive, they tend to blame it on "rogue groups" or "rogue employees." In that way, they're not significantly different from a bank, IMO.


And those rogue groups ARE to blame. The current round of this shiatstorm was that attacks had dropped to a few a month as Hamas held to the agreement but random "loose cannons" didn't. Israel finally decided, "elections are coming upenough is enough! The gloves come off and we slaughter these filthy animalsforce these people to see reason!" and started hitting hard.

'Cuz BTW, Israelis engage in attacks on Palestinians during "peacetime", it just rarely gets televised and gets labeled a "false flag op." Worse still, sometimes it IS a false flag op, but when everybody lies, CONSTANTLY, and no one wants to hunt the bomb-throwers, well-poisoners, and rogue snipers on their own side (among other things, they'll need them during the next "hot" period) it's impossible to sort.

To use Tatsuma's favorite (egregiously flawed and silly) example; If the US bombed the hell out of Mexico every couple of months over the cartel kidnappings, murders, and drug-running we'd look pretty weird too.
2012-11-16 01:19:18 PM
1 votes:

BigNumber12: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...


Wow. At least Amos Quito has a brain, and is well-read on the subject.


I'm just going by based on what a lot of my Israeli friends that actually live there are saying, there seems to be so much hatred for the Palestinians right now that I just don't see how the shiat isn't going to hit the fan when both sides seem to want it to happen.

Also I guess I should clarify that I don't agree with the reaction, but fark man, Israel has been trying to starve them out for years now, and then just early in the week killed Hamas' military leader and a bunch of civilians in the process... What did they think would happen? And now to act like they have the justification to invade and slaughter the Palestinians after basically starting the fight themselves?
2012-11-16 01:19:01 PM
1 votes:

liam76: arabs in ISrael is growing faster than the jewish population.


In a way that's worse than a stable population, because Israel has severely limited the amount of water available to Palestinians, as well as farmland.
/look up how many wells ended up on the Israeli side of the wall
//UN has a report on it that I'm too lazy to google.
2012-11-16 01:12:32 PM
1 votes:

ChipNASA: solitary: This land is mine, God gave this land to me!

That was worth the watch......

/just in case other Farkers roll by that link


Yes. Yes it was.

/one smart to your post
//just to make sure
2012-11-16 01:07:45 PM
1 votes:

geom_00: Please correct me if I am wrong.

Hezbollah is classified as a terrorist group with ties to Iran.

Iran is Sunni Muslim. Even though the majority of the Middle East is shiate Muslim, the Muslim Holy Sites in Jerusalem are important to both sects, correct?

So, isn't Hezbollah taking a HUGE HUGE risk at aiming rockets at Jerusalem? If they would hit a Muslim Holy Site, they would pretty much be the #1 enemy in the Muslim world?

/Not trolling or going for snark. I want to make sure I have the right facts.


Not Hezbollah. Hamas, from Gaza. Also, Iran is predominantly Shia Muslim. The majority is Sunni. And IIRC, no, Jerusalem is not held holy by all sects. Don't quote me on that last, though.
And I'm sure muslims everywhere would find a way to rationalize around a hit on Al Quds.
2012-11-16 01:07:12 PM
1 votes:

bostonguy: Full citizens (the "one-state solution") -- Guaranteed civil war within a few years, if not years


That and the political establishment won't allow it because it would dilute the Jewish majority. They've come out and said that a few times before.

The problem basically is that Israel wants the land of the Gaza and the West Bank but doesn't want the people who inhabit these areas.

There is no good side as they're both dicks as far as I'm concerned.
2012-11-16 01:06:24 PM
1 votes:

KellyX: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

Cause yea, blowing up Hamas' military leader wouldn't count as not shooting first and the "No Fight Back!" rule applies as well.

Clearly Israel is the victim here...


Who in their right mind defends Hamas?


http://www.hrw.org/node/110517
2012-11-16 01:01:59 PM
1 votes:

KellyX: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

Cause yea, blowing up Hamas' military leader wouldn't count as not shooting first and the "No Fight Back!" rule applies as well.

Clearly Israel is the victim here...


Are you being deliberately obtuse, or just a troll? Hamas has been shooting rockets and mortars, and sending in guys with guns for months now. Even the US press reported that. Heck, even Al Jazeera mentioned it.
2012-11-16 01:00:20 PM
1 votes:
The real issue here is that Hamas wants to influence the Israeli election to keep Bibi in power. They are extremists, and the only thing they hate more than extreme right-wing Israelis are moderate/left-wing Israelis who might restart the peace process. Hamas (and Bibi) are enemies of peace, and share the objective of keeping the conflict going, and keeping each other in power.

Anyone other than Bibi winning the Israeli election would put Hamas' power at grave risk of being replaced by more moderate folks, as such, they are determined to enrage the Israeli population into re-electing Bibi and taking the risk of peace off the table.

The only question is: Will Israelis fall for it?
2012-11-16 12:57:51 PM
1 votes:
With the thousands of years' worth of historical "I was here first" "No, I was here first, not you!" going on, I don't think an equitable solution is possible. I do think the US should get its nose out of that business, though.

Maybe this could all be settled by a cage fight to the death between Bibi and whoever is heading Hamas now. It seems this would be just as sensible as any other possible solution over there.
2012-11-16 12:55:40 PM
1 votes:

MorrisBird: I sympathize with the Arab cause. I feel for the put-upon Jews. And I keep singing the middle class liberal, humanitarian, we are all responsible, well-intentioned blues.


Neither side will be satisfied until the other is gone. There are plenty of places where people need help more, like about half of Africa for starters.
2012-11-16 12:54:53 PM
1 votes:

Lunaville: Bungles: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

You seem to have missed out the rather critical "Don't you dare react as we steal your land, bulldoze your homes, perform a string of extra-judicial executions, kill your civilians, and destroy any chance of you operating a functional economy" first part of Israel's position.

While all of what you say is absolutely true, launching rockets pell-mell into Israel is not akin to marching to the sea to make salt. I can not imagine a worse possible way to deal with Israeli perpetuated injustices than resorting to violence.


I'm certainly not saying it's a sensible or moral reaction (it obviously isn't), it's a totally understandable and predictable reaction.

Any one of us here, if we we're born in Gaza, would only be one Israeli rocket killing our family away from strapping on an explosive vest.

There but for the Grace of God.
2012-11-16 12:54:17 PM
1 votes:

almandot: okay I'm sorry to play this card but I was really just curious :P

Looked up Mitt Romney's Israel position, I remember his wonderful trip there and all. His website's been taken down but I got the cached copy.


http://www.mittromney.com/issues/israel (google cache)

Israel

Obama's Failure

President Obama and his administration have badly misunderstood the dynamics of the region. Instead of fostering stability and security, they have diminished U.S. authority and painted both Israel and ourselves into a corner. President Obama for too long has been in the grip of several illusions. One is that the Israeli-Palestinian dispute is the central problem in the region. This has been disproved repeatedly by events, most recently and most dramatically by the eruption of the Arab Spring. But it nonetheless led the President to explicitly state that his policy is to create "daylight" between the United States and Israel, believing that this would earn us credits in the Arab world and somehow bring peace closer. The record proves otherwise. The key to negotiating a lasting peace is an Israel that knows it will be secure.

The administration's errors extend in other directions as well. President Obama has repeatedly and unilaterally created new preconditions for restarting peace talks. The result has been to encourage Palestinians simply to hold out and wait for Washington to deliver more Israeli concessions on a silver platter. Why, after all, should the Palestinians even negotiate with Israel if the White House is pressuring Israel without extracting any price from the Palestinians in return?

D'oh ;)


I am incredibly thankful now that Romney didn't win.

Romney would be doing his best to persuade Bibi into a ground invasion of Gaza.

Obama is doing his best to avoid that.
2012-11-16 12:53:40 PM
1 votes:

Epicedion: Lunaville: While all of what you say is absolutely true, launching rockets pell-mell into Israel is not akin to marching to the sea to make salt. I can not imagine a worse possible way to deal with Israeli perpetuated injustices than resorting to violence.

To be rather blunt, it's all they have to work with. They don't have any negotiating power and can't affect anything economically, but they have guns and rockets.


Given the existence of organizations like Jews for Justice for Palestinians (Link), I think that view demonstrates a lack of imagination.
2012-11-16 12:52:44 PM
1 votes:
Just to give people an objective feeling of what it feels like to be a random person in Israel. (And I've love to hear such similar, objective thoughts from anyone in Gaza.)

You hear a siren. You go to your safe room, the stairwell of your building, a local bomb shelter, or you lie on the ground against a south-facing wall and cover your head. You wait. A few minutes later, you hear a "boom." It will be loud or faint depending on how far away the impact was and whether it was a hit or an Iron Dome interception. You wait a few more minutes to be sure, and then you return to going about your daily life. Rinse and repeat.

If you live in the outskirts of the rocket range (at the moment), like in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, this happens, say, once per day. If you live in Sderot or elsewhere close to Gaza, it happens every hour or every few hours.
2012-11-16 12:52:06 PM
1 votes:

solitary: This land is mine, God gave this land to me!


That was worth the watch......


/just in case other Farkers roll by that link
2012-11-16 12:51:12 PM
1 votes:

BigNumber12: AverageAmericanGuy: That's the difference between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Christians don't believe that The Law holds any sway over believers. Therefore holy sites are nice tourist attractions, but don't have any intrinsic spiritual value.


Sadly, that's not true for Christians inside Jerusalem. That conflict, however, is usually sorted out with brooms and fists.

Monks gone wild at Jesus' birth site


www.nypost.com

"I'm gonna beat you like a temple money changer!"
2012-11-16 12:49:16 PM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: That's the difference between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Christians don't believe that The Law holds any sway over believers. Therefore holy sites are nice tourist attractions, but don't have any intrinsic spiritual value.



Sadly, that's not true for Christians inside Jerusalem. That conflict, however, is usually sorted out with brooms and fists.

Monks gone wild at Jesus' birth site
2012-11-16 12:47:35 PM
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: shastacola: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

Maybe they believe it because it's pretty much the history of every country ever.

Really? Every country ever has had land handed to them by the foreign powers propping them up? I think you need to rethink your history lessons...

Every border line in the Middle East was drawn by foriegn powers.
2012-11-16 12:46:43 PM
1 votes:

Lunaville: While all of what you say is absolutely true, launching rockets pell-mell into Israel is not akin to marching to the sea to make salt. I can not imagine a worse possible way to deal with Israeli perpetuated injustices than resorting to violence.


To be rather blunt, it's all they have to work with. They don't have any negotiating power and can't affect anything economically, but they have guns and rockets.
2012-11-16 12:38:52 PM
1 votes:
First off, I hope Farker bostonguy stays safe and everything.

OK.

Now... I'd like to remind everyone else that it is not absolutely necessary for you to have a passionate, strongly held opinion on the Israel/Palestine conflict. In fact, it is your right to not give a fark, one way or the other.

Something to consider.
2012-11-16 12:35:58 PM
1 votes:
The My Little Pony Killer


Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

^ What r'tards who failed history actually believe.
2012-11-16 12:35:18 PM
1 votes:

Galloping Galoshes: MaliFinn: and if Egypt actually follows through with their statement of support and also deploys forces in Gaza

When has this happened? When Hamas got too violent, Israel has entered several times and Egypt did nothing. It's not in Egypt's interest to engage Israel.


It's a different Egyptian government that's more sympathetic to Hamas.
2012-11-16 12:33:24 PM
1 votes:
ambarussa.files.wordpress.com
2012-11-16 12:32:43 PM
1 votes:
2012-11-16 12:31:28 PM
1 votes:

Baelz:
Hamas:
Step 1: Build Missile Launch site in apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and mosques.
Step 2. Launch missiles at the hated Joos
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Die horribly when the Joos destroy the missile sites

There is no profit, unless you're the company selling the smart bombs, UAVs, fighter jets etc etc to the Joos.


While I sympathize with the point you're making, it's not entirely accurate. There is a lot of profit in it for Hamas, and virtually every other "group" over there. Just as we in the United States funds various groups to destabilize nations and areas, so do a lot of other governments and terrorist groups finance Hamas, et. al., to do whatever they can to destabilize the region.

Despite my absolute lack of respect for Hamas, I will speak a little bit of blasphemy and say we in the West are far too willing to ignore the good things they do. Those schools and hospitals that they've put the missiles in are in large part not there without their presence. They've done a lot to help the poor. But, as with anything, their more militant wing makes them look absolutely atrocious.

In other words, a lot like us, there's a part of Hamas that is actually good, and that the people there look up to, and that part has earned that respect. There's another part that is as awful as Al Qaeda and should indeed be on the official Terrorist list, and that's the one doing the shiat currently going on.

But, they're smart enough to play the media game now. Like any government, when they do something stupid/aggressive, they tend to blame it on "rogue groups" or "rogue employees." In that way, they're not significantly different from a bank, IMO.
2012-11-16 12:27:38 PM
1 votes:

The_Fuzz: mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.

That's one of the dumbest things I've read in an Middle East war thread in a long time.

There is "truth in the guns don't kill people, I do" bumper sticker. Here's a hint. People with knowledge and Science aren't going to kill people on their own. They need some sort of motivation. Hrmm, like, say, fanatical religions zealots? Ya, that'll do just fine.


Between the Eugenics movement, the Soviet Gulag system, and the Maoist Great Leap Forward, 'people with knowledge and science' managed to rack up a murder count around 75 million or so in the 20th century.

Fanaticism is a human problem, not a religious problem.
2012-11-16 12:25:18 PM
1 votes:
Oh, this is going to turn out well.

I'm going to hang out over here. Away from the insanity. On a different continent.

Please keep me out of it.
2012-11-16 12:24:05 PM
1 votes:

ChipNASA: [bokertov.typepad.com image 480x303]

/stokes the fire


Martyrdom is a concept not readily embraced by Jews or Christians, bit for Muslims, dying for their faith* is a easy way into heaven. Yes, even their kids - its a cultural thing.

*Like Christianity, the reasons tends to be whatever the current religious powers want it to be, rather than having any actual doctrinal or dogmatic basis.
2012-11-16 12:21:01 PM
1 votes:

Lunaville: The My Little Pony Killer: Let's keep encroaching on the land we shoved these people off onto and see if we can't get sunshine and rainbows from them.

/what Israel seriously believes

Actually, the British shoved aside the Palestinians to form Israel with the consent of the USA. Palestine was British territory. To my knowledge, the only group that questioned the wisdom of shunting a huge percentage of Europes' Jewish population into Palestine at that time were the Quakers. And they didn't have really have an alternative solution to offer other than pushing to allow for more refugee entry into the United Kingdom and the United States which was hotly opposed at that time.

I do wonder why Hamas so rarely denounces Britain? And America? I mean, I know that they do, but by comparison to what they dump on Israel, it seems so subdued. Maybe it's a distance and perspective thing creating what is really, on my part, a misconception. It's hard to judge.


It could be the fact that they see Israel attacking them, not the US or Britain.
2012-11-16 12:20:08 PM
1 votes:

Lunaville: I'm trying to remain rational and make an honest effort to understand the issues involved in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. However, I am beginning to feel that Hamas and Netanyahu are the common enemies of the Palestinian and Israeli people.


Better late than never. Welcome to the club. Many of the leaders in the Middle East benefit directly by making sure the Palestinians' lives are as awful as possible. They have been the putative political football for long enough that everyone knows they can toss that pigskin for a few yards. On the other hand, we ought to remember this when we go out of our way to encourage democracy in other countries. We can't say, "Democracy at any cost!" and then remain all snooty when people get elected we don't like, even if it's palpably obvious those people are bad for their citizens.

The whole situation is a clusterfark, and will remain that way until the people in charge stop getting enriched by the conflict. I don't even believe it's about differing religions anymore, over there.
2012-11-16 12:18:35 PM
1 votes:

mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.


I am not sure how, but you managed to put your entire head up your ass there
2012-11-16 12:16:11 PM
1 votes:

wantingout: HotIgneous Intruder: oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.

///and only an anti-semite would disagree! :-)


It's not only Israel that keeps them in Gaza - Egypt doesn't want them, and no one else will take them. Israel has maintained a blockade on Gaza since Hamas began shooting at them from there. Israel's terms are pretty simple. Don't shoot at me, I won't shoot back.
2012-11-16 12:13:28 PM
1 votes:
If Romney had won we'd be gearing up for war.

/glad he didn't
2012-11-16 12:12:02 PM
1 votes:

mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.


I... I don't even know how to respond to this.

I... just can't...
2012-11-16 12:11:03 PM
1 votes:
If they want to hurt Hamas, they need to invade Syria. That's who started Hamas, that's who arms them and that's who gives them orders.

Remember that "Isreal retaliates against a Syrian shelling" thing that happened just before the Hamas attacks? I can guarantee that this is nothing but a way for Assad to turn the Palestinians into unwilling meatshields. Again.
2012-11-16 12:10:31 PM
1 votes:
I'm trying to remain rational and make an honest effort to understand the issues involved in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. However, I am beginning to feel that Hamas and Netanyahu are the common enemies of the Palestinian and Israeli people. Each inflicts violence on civilians. Neither considers non-violent options at any stage. Both perpetuate injustices and respond to violence and injustice with their own acts of violence and injustice which achieves the same dismal result over and over again.
Maybe Jews for Peace and pro-peace Palestinians will have to form an Occupy Peace movement or something. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but it certainly isn't war. The time and resources wasted in devotion to war are time and resources that could be put into finding a real answer.
2012-11-16 12:09:28 PM
1 votes:
You know, if only Israel had performed airstrikes this week in Gaza and killed the leader of the military portion of Hamas, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

/oh, wait
//don't worry, Israel, you'll strike back and THAT time, for sure, without a doubt, will work because it has to at SOME point, right?
///how about trying something different for a change?
2012-11-16 12:08:12 PM
1 votes:

enigmaxx: Why does this warrant the use of the newsflash tag?

Also: 

[t2.gstatic.com image 250x202]


Because we care what happens in Israel for some damn reason.
2012-11-16 12:07:45 PM
1 votes:
Hamas rockets land just outside Jerusalem. If they hit a holy site, one of three religions is going to be PISSED

I would be most amused if one of these rockets blows the mosques right off the Temple mount.

/Depending on the site, all three might be pissed.
2012-11-16 12:07:12 PM
1 votes:

nmemkha: Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham. They are literally fighting each other in the name of the same God.

This, SO MUCH THIS!!!!

2012-11-16 12:06:42 PM
1 votes:
The Dome of the Rock and the Wailing Wall are right next to each other.
2012-11-16 12:05:42 PM
1 votes:

Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw


Science was created by the devil to trick men in to shunning God. I hope you're happy now, you fell for it hook, line, and pitchfork!
2012-11-16 12:05:06 PM
1 votes:
Not that they will but, yeah, if Hamas were to hit the dome of the rock or something... I wouldn't know whether to smirk or tense.
2012-11-16 12:04:15 PM
1 votes:
It's a bit outdated, but...

www.globalsecurity.org
2012-11-16 12:03:23 PM
1 votes:

greentea1985: Hamas is guaranteeing a war, which is exactly what they want. Hamas will fail if Israel and the West Bank ever strike a peace accord, so they are guaranteeing it won't happen by starting a war.


Doesn't help them if they are all dead.
2012-11-16 12:01:35 PM
1 votes:

FitzShivering: I bet you'd get pretty upset if they launched a missile at the Large Hadron Collider, though. :D


my science!
2012-11-16 12:01:12 PM
1 votes:
The dune coons are at it again...
2012-11-16 12:01:09 PM
1 votes:
oh good.

/Got all those weapons, might as well unleash them on the folks who've been penned up for two generations in a 141 square-mile concentration camp and are lashing out again.
//Genocide: It's OK when Israel does it.
2012-11-16 11:59:38 AM
1 votes:

Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw


I bet you'd get pretty upset if they launched a missile at the Large Hadron Collider, though. :D
 
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