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(BBC) NewsFlash Hamas rockets land just outside Jerusalem. If they hit a holy site, one of three religions is going to be PISSED   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 420
    More: NewsFlash, Hamas, Jerusalem, Israel Radio, City of God, Iron Dome, Gaza, population center, rockets  
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7957 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Nov 2012 at 11:57 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-11-16 01:19:18 PM  

BigNumber12: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...


Wow. At least Amos Quito has a brain, and is well-read on the subject.


I'm just going by based on what a lot of my Israeli friends that actually live there are saying, there seems to be so much hatred for the Palestinians right now that I just don't see how the shiat isn't going to hit the fan when both sides seem to want it to happen.

Also I guess I should clarify that I don't agree with the reaction, but fark man, Israel has been trying to starve them out for years now, and then just early in the week killed Hamas' military leader and a bunch of civilians in the process... What did they think would happen? And now to act like they have the justification to invade and slaughter the Palestinians after basically starting the fight themselves?
 
2012-11-16 01:19:28 PM  
i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-11-16 01:20:24 PM  

mekki: No, because in the history of the world, scientists have never done any inhumane things just in the name of science. Mengele, The Tuskegee Syphilis Study and Unit 731 are figments of your imagination. And this little gem was from three days ago, EPA Charged With Lethal Experiments On Hundreds Of Unsuspecting Subjects. Where was the religion in those experiments?


Be careful of the god you worship.
 
2012-11-16 01:21:16 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Love and rockets.

It's almost as if Hamas is trying to lure Israel into a trap.


Love and Rockets?

cps-static.rovicorp.com
 
2012-11-16 01:21:54 PM  

rthanu: nmemkha: Malivon: I predict this happening:

North Korea, feeling neglected, will INVADE THE UNITED STATES and we will all be saved by blue eyed white teenagers with hunting rifles!

/FTFY
/sounds like the plot to a very bad movie to me.

Very bad movie is a bit of an understatement. It's unquestionably the stupidest premise in the history of Hollywood.


I tend to think of it as more Right Wing porn than anything else. Yes, gun-loving bigoted redneck teenagers will save us from the yellow menace!
 
2012-11-16 01:22:10 PM  

mekki: Mengele


Aaaaand Nazis. Shut it down, folks. Shut it all down.
 
2012-11-16 01:22:55 PM  

FitzShivering: Baelz:
Hamas:
Step 1: Build Missile Launch site in apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and mosques.
Step 2. Launch missiles at the hated Joos
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Die horribly when the Joos destroy the missile sites

There is no profit, unless you're the company selling the smart bombs, UAVs, fighter jets etc etc to the Joos.


While I sympathize with the point you're making, it's not entirely accurate. There is a lot of profit in it for Hamas, and virtually every other "group" over there. Just as we in the United States funds various groups to destabilize nations and areas, so do a lot of other governments and terrorist groups finance Hamas, et. al., to do whatever they can to destabilize the region.

Despite my absolute lack of respect for Hamas, I will speak a little bit of blasphemy and say we in the West are far too willing to ignore the good things they do. Those schools and hospitals that they've put the missiles in are in large part not there without their presence. They've done a lot to help the poor. But, as with anything, their more militant wing makes them look absolutely atrocious.

In other words, a lot like us, there's a part of Hamas that is actually good, and that the people there look up to, and that part has earned that respect. There's another part that is as awful as Al Qaeda and should indeed be on the official Terrorist list, and that's the one doing the shiat currently going on.

But, they're smart enough to play the media game now. Like any government, when they do something stupid/aggressive, they tend to blame it on "rogue groups" or "rogue employees." In that way, they're not significantly different from a bank, IMO.


And those rogue groups ARE to blame. The current round of this shiatstorm was that attacks had dropped to a few a month as Hamas held to the agreement but random "loose cannons" didn't. Israel finally decided, "elections are coming upenough is enough! The gloves come off and we slaughter these filthy animalsforce these people to see reason!" and started hitting hard.

'Cuz BTW, Israelis engage in attacks on Palestinians during "peacetime", it just rarely gets televised and gets labeled a "false flag op." Worse still, sometimes it IS a false flag op, but when everybody lies, CONSTANTLY, and no one wants to hunt the bomb-throwers, well-poisoners, and rogue snipers on their own side (among other things, they'll need them during the next "hot" period) it's impossible to sort.

To use Tatsuma's favorite (egregiously flawed and silly) example; If the US bombed the hell out of Mexico every couple of months over the cartel kidnappings, murders, and drug-running we'd look pretty weird too.
 
2012-11-16 01:23:54 PM  

shastacola: KellyX: Galloping Galoshes: KellyX: Israel should just put the Palestinians into special camps, let them concentrate them all in one location...

That's what seems to be the prevailing desire from what I can gather...

You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

Cause yea, blowing up Hamas' military leader wouldn't count as not shooting first and the "No Fight Back!" rule applies as well.

Clearly Israel is the victim here...

Who in their right mind defends Hamas?


http://www.hrw.org/node/110517


Not about defending them, frankly don't give a shiat about them, but I can look at it from an outside perspective that if someone kills one of your leaders to not act all surprised when they retaliate and then try to justify wanting to invade based on that retaliation.

But honestly both sides want this fight... so fark it, just get it over with, just don't try to drag the United States into it if the rest of the Islamic/Arab world uses it to justify attacking Israel again.
 
2012-11-16 01:23:54 PM  

liam76: geom_00: So, isn't Hezbollah taking a HUGE HUGE risk at aiming rockets at Jerusalem? If they would hit a Muslim Holy Site, they would pretty much be the #1 enemy in the Muslim world?

Interesting question.

When their rockets hit arab muslims the response is to celebrate them as Martyr's.

Mrtraveler01: The problem basically is that Israel wants the land of the Gaza and the West Bank but doesn't want the people who inhabit these areas.

If this is true why did they pull out?


For the same reason that most men want the property but not the people.
 
2012-11-16 01:24:22 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: The English left because terrorists like Menachem Begin, head of the Irgun, blew up the Kind David Hotel, assassinated the UN Middle East envoy and threatened a terror campaign in the UK.

The Irgun was denounced by individuals like Albert Einstein and numerous Jewish organizations. To punish Begin, he was elected prime minister of Israel. Netanyahu's party is a direct descendant of the Irgun.


What arrant nonsense. The British left because their League of Nations mandate ran out. Begin was not elected prime minister; you obviously don't know how Israel's parlimentary system works. The Labor party lost support because of a number of circumstances. Begin headed the major alternative, and was able to put together a working coalition. He was such an evil guy he negotiated with Sadat and returned the Sinai.
 
2012-11-16 01:25:06 PM  

nmemkha: It's unquestionably the stupidest premise in the history of Hollywood.


I think you may underestimate them.
 
2012-11-16 01:26:05 PM  

mekki: The_Fuzz: mekki: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

Ah, yes, science. You know, what you use to make the rockets and bombs.

Anyone who thinks science is always peaceful and religion is always violent is an idiot. It's hard to keep wars going if all you have are stones that you've picked off the ground. That's where science kicks in and shows you all the new ways to kill people. Many where you are thousands of miles away and you don't even have to leave your desk.

That's one of the dumbest things I've read in an Middle East war thread in a long time.

There is "truth in the guns don't kill people, I do" bumper sticker. Here's a hint. People with knowledge and Science aren't going to kill people on their own. They need some sort of motivation. Hrmm, like, say, fanatical religions zealots? Ya, that'll do just fine.

No, because in the history of the world, scientists have never done any inhumane things just in the name of science. Mengele, The Tuskegee Syphilis Study and Unit 731 are figments of your imagination. And this little gem was from three days ago, EPA Charged With Lethal Experiments On Hundreds Of Unsuspecting Subjects. Where was the religion in those experiments?


I guess you are going to have to be satisfied with missing my point. Those are issues created by people, not science. Science can't make decisions. I used religion as an example but any individual or group with a motivation can pervert whatever is at their fingertips. Blaming their actions on science is as ridiculous as blaming it on the air they breath, or the water they drink.
 
2012-11-16 01:27:19 PM  

rthanu: nmemkha: Malivon: I predict this happening:

North Korea, feeling neglected, will INVADE THE UNITED STATES and we will all be saved by blue eyed white teenagers with hunting rifles!

/FTFY
/sounds like the plot to a very bad movie to me.

Very bad movie is a bit of an understatement. It's unquestionably the stupidest premise in the history of Hollywood.


Stupidest premise in the history of Hollywood so far.
 
2012-11-16 01:28:29 PM  

MaliFinn: For the same reason that most men want the property but not the people


How does pulling out get them the property?
 
2012-11-16 01:29:03 PM  
RULES OF ENGAGEMENT :

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

Deuteronomy 20


Just a bit of context to help understand the mindset.


/Gaza is a "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" city
 
2012-11-16 01:29:04 PM  

MaliFinn: liam76: geom_00: So, isn't Hezbollah taking a HUGE HUGE risk at aiming rockets at Jerusalem? If they would hit a Muslim Holy Site, they would pretty much be the #1 enemy in the Muslim world?

Interesting question.

When their rockets hit arab muslims the response is to celebrate them as Martyr's.

Mrtraveler01: The problem basically is that Israel wants the land of the Gaza and the West Bank but doesn't want the people who inhabit these areas.

If this is true why did they pull out?

For the same reason that most men want the property but not the people.


Actually, nobody wants the land or the people. Israel has never, even in biblical times, held Gaza. It offers nothing geographically. And Egypt doesn't want that headache either.
 
2012-11-16 01:29:26 PM  

CokeBear: The real issue here is that Hamas wants to influence the Israeli election to keep Bibi in power. They are extremists, and the only thing they hate more than extreme right-wing Israelis are moderate/left-wing Israelis who might restart the peace process. Hamas (and Bibi) are enemies of peace, and share the objective of keeping the conflict going, and keeping each other in power.

Anyone other than Bibi winning the Israeli election would put Hamas' power at grave risk of being replaced by more moderate folks, as such, they are determined to enrage the Israeli population into re-electing Bibi and taking the risk of peace off the table.

The only question is: Will Israelis fall for it?


Any reason you continue to make this exact same post over and over in the same thread ?

Bibi assassinated their guy. So Bibi decided to piss off hamas right before the election. So what makes more sense bibi kills guy knowing what the reaction will be just before the election. The reaction that you site above that helps him and his party.

Or Hamas just randomly decides to start shiat right before the election and it just so happens one of their top guys was assassinated ?
 
2012-11-16 01:29:49 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: [s3.vidimg02.popscreen.com image 480x360]

would have sucked to be in a Quiznos cup when the bomb came


Useless trivia: That picture was taken at Chatsworth Street and Zelzah Avenue in Granada Hills. Behind the 'Granada Hills' sign is a Vietnam Memorial listing names of those from the area who served during the war.
 
2012-11-16 01:30:01 PM  

SpectroBoy: Galloping Galoshes: You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

And the Palestinian position is "Give back the land you stole from us and stop bombing us and we won't need to shoot back!"


These two statements really are the heart of the conflict. What if there was an attempt to create a plan that would be acceptable to both sides? Trying to draw on many of the ideas presented by other people up thread, I propose the following as a starting point.

1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.
2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
3. The UN oversees a resettlement fund supported by all participating UN countries and authorized to accept private donations. The fund would provide each family an extremely modest home on, let's say, an 1/8th acre of land and a one year monthly food stipend equivalent to $30 dollars per person to allow time for these people to get on their feet and become self-supporting.
4. All military aid is ended to the entire region, including Israel. Humanitarian aid may be continued provided it is not converted to military use.
 
2012-11-16 01:31:19 PM  

SurfaceTension: You know, if only Israel had performed airstrikes this week in Gaza and killed the leader of the military portion of Hamas, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

/oh, wait
//don't worry, Israel, you'll strike back and THAT time, for sure, without a doubt, will work because it has to at SOME point, right?
///how about trying something different for a change?


You know, people always trot out this same exact statement, over and over, and it's farking retarded:

1) Israel has been not striking back after HUNDREDS of rocket attacks prior to what was obviously the proverbial straw on the camel's back - how's that for "different" and "peace-seaking?" Just because the international media essentially ignores posting anything about the ongoing barrage of rockets, cross-border infiltrations and attacks from Gaza anywhere forward of "page 10 in the paper" (in a 1 paragraph blurb) doesn't mean they don't happen.

Do some farking research or pay more attention, and quit posting that little 4-month span of "only a few rockets" chart from 2008 - you know, 4½ YEARS AGO? Read. Through. These. Articles. about the 2500+ ROCKETS AND MORTARS FIRED SINCE THAT FARKING CHART. And that chart spiked because it never hit 0 to begin with.

2) The "You know the Palestinians are going to fire rockets at you some more, Israel, so why don't you try something different?" argument also begs the question that the Palestinians have no other choice but to spend their money and time to build more rockets to fire at civilians, no matter how much their aim sucks. Why do you idiots who claim Israel's the one who has to try new tactics (which they've done, multiple times) treat the Palestinians like they are some dumb animals who only respond to impulse with violence... aren't they people too, who can choose to "try something different?" Why do you useful idiots continually not give the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt that they too can choose to invest in peace instead of war?

Their leaders, Hamas, who they elected, who then proceeded to kill off Fatah (who runs the West Bank) members to gain total power in Gaza, are the worst enemies of any rational, peace-seeking Gazan Palestinian. But you farking morons don't ever assume these people have any free will of their own, except to fight Israel. How about they fight Hamas who turns their lives into total shiat, instead? Why do you never provide THAT as a "try something else" option for the region?

I suspect it's because, for most of you, you'd applaud the day where the only stable, prosperous, technologically-advanced, multi-ethnical and diverse-religion (there are over 1 million Muslim citizens in Israel, 16+% of population, who enjoy full rights under law) democracy in the entire middle east were forced to collapse. Just go ahead and admit it (well, many of you do).

Quit treating the Palestinians like dumb brutes with no options of their own just so you can justify supporting your desire to see Israel gone one day.

/rant
 
2012-11-16 01:32:36 PM  

CokeBear: "If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out..."



Yeah...because that's exactly what "broke out" in 1993-5 (Rabin) and 2000 (Barak). The rest of your post was a needlessly long follow-on to an utterly bullshiat premise.
 
2012-11-16 01:32:59 PM  

Epicedion: Lunaville: Palestinians are not animals.

If you don't understand the analogy, you could just say so. Going straight to a literal linkage instead of trying to understand the general similarity speaks to what appears to be a lack of critical thinking. Since you haven't gotten past that, I'll assume that whatever you have to say about the Bible is trite derp.


I understood the analogy. I felt it was inaccurate.
 
2012-11-16 01:35:16 PM  
bostonguy
Full citizens (the "one-state solution") -- Guaranteed civil war within a few years, if not years

Explain

A Palestinian state (the "two-state solution") -- What happens if Hamas takes over the Palestinian state and is then within easy range in the West Bank of firing simple mortars at Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion Airport and is capable of splitting the state in two at its thinnest point (something like ten miles, I think)? This is what Israelis need to think about in the long-term.

Suck it up until the construction boom hits and everyone in Palestine is too busy making paper to want to screw around with that stupid crap anymore.
And I doubt there would be much of a problem with maintaining a military presence in the Judaean Mountains.
 
2012-11-16 01:36:56 PM  
let hope they hit the dome of the rock
 
2012-11-16 01:39:08 PM  

Amos Quito: /Gaza is a "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" city


Gaza is not only a city. Gaza, Askelon, Ashdod, and Ekron were the four Philistine cities that lay on the coast (Gath was inland). Gaza and Ashdod were never conquered; Askelon and Ekron were, but were returned shortly thereafter. Based on other narrative, I doubt that either of them were put to the sword as directed. The Jews just never listened, even then.
 
2012-11-16 01:39:36 PM  

RanDomino: give me doughnuts
Gaza Strip population has tripled since 1995.

80% of the population is refugees.


Only if you, like the UN, count the children and grandchildren of refugees displaced before 1948 (and a few more in 1967) as refugees.

For everywhere except Palestine, the UN's definition of refugee is Individuals who:

-are outside their country of nationality or habitual residence;
- have a well-founded fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion; and
-are unable or unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution.


Not the children or grandchildren of those individuals. If you want to blame somebody for the plight of the Palestinians, blame Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.
 
2012-11-16 01:40:17 PM  

Lunaville: I understood the analogy. I felt it was inaccurate.


Group A has all the power. Group B has no power. A small subsection of Group A lobbies for better treatment of Group B. You said this shows that Group B has power, which is false.

The only power the Palestinians have is guns and rockets. They're not going to get together and vote Israel into taking care of their needs. They're not going to build their own country in which they can make their own decisions. They're going to sit there and make a fuss until groups with actual power either back them into acquiring real power, incorporate them into the general population and afford them rights as equals, or blow everything up.

Sadly, it's trending toward "blow everything up."
 
2012-11-16 01:40:31 PM  

Lunaville: SpectroBoy: Galloping Galoshes: You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

And the Palestinian position is "Give back the land you stole from us and stop bombing us and we won't need to shoot back!"

These two statements really are the heart of the conflict. What if there was an attempt to create a plan that would be acceptable to both sides? Trying to draw on many of the ideas presented by other people up thread, I propose the following as a starting point.

1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.
2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
3. The UN oversees a resettlement fund supported by all participating UN countries and authorized to accept private donations. The fund would provide each family an extremely modest home on, let's say, an 1/8th acre of land and a one year monthly food stipend equivalent to $30 dollars per person to allow time for these people to get on their feet and become self-supporting.
4. All military aid is ended to the entire region, including Israel. Humanitarian aid may be continued provided it is not converted to military use.


Hey, at least you're trying.
 
2012-11-16 01:42:27 PM  

kindms: Bibi assassinated their guy. So Bibi decided to piss off hamas right before the election. So what makes more sense bibi kills guy knowing what the reaction will be just before the election. The reaction that you site above that helps him and his party.

Or Hamas just randomly decides to start shiat right before the election and it just so happens one of their top guys was assassinated ?


I'd go with you except that Hamas' leader was killed as the result of a fairly long game Israel was playing to bring him out in the open. I think the timing was more coincidental, but convenient for Israel. He poked his head out of his hole at the wrong time.
 
2012-11-16 01:44:18 PM  

Seraphym: Quit treating the Palestinians like dumb brutes with no options of their own just so you can justify supporting your desire to see Israel gone one day.


Wow. I just subscribe it to ignorance,willful or otherwise, not deliberate antisemitism.
 
2012-11-16 01:45:18 PM  

spmkk: CokeBear: "If a peacenik (or even moderate or slightly sane centrist) PM was elected in Israel, there is a huge risk to Hamas that peace could break out..."


Yeah...because that's exactly what "broke out" in 1993-5 (Rabin) and 2000 (Barak). The rest of your post was a needlessly long follow-on to an utterly bullshiat premise.


Don't confuse him with history and facts. PETA might get after you.
 
2012-11-16 01:47:41 PM  

Cynicism101: liam76: arabs in ISrael is growing faster than the jewish population.

In a way that's worse than a stable population, because Israel has severely limited the amount of water available to Palestinians, as well as farmland.
/look up how many wells ended up on the Israeli side of the wall
//UN has a report on it that I'm too lazy to google.


Darn those Israelis for not building enough pipelines, and not supplying even more water to he Gaza Strip.

Too bad those 3000 greenhouses that American Jewish donor bought from Isarali settlers and gave to the Palestinian Authority got looted ad stripped to the ground. I wonder how much food they could have grown?
 
2012-11-16 01:47:59 PM  

liam76: Amos Quito: /Gaza is a "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" city

Those all powerful scheming Zionists sure are not doing well at this whole genocide thing you are accusing them of.

Why do you think it was so easy for them to pull off during the Holocaust when Gaza is such a tough nut to crack?


I'm confused. How is conflict with Hamas in Gaza genocide? Did the other 300 million arabs and 2 billion muslims fall off the earth, and this is all that's left? And if it's genocide, why does the IDF go to some length to avoid civilian casualties?
 
2012-11-16 01:48:43 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: Seraphym: Quit treating the Palestinians like dumb brutes with no options of their own just so you can justify supporting your desire to see Israel gone one day.

Wow. I just subscribe it to ignorance,willful or otherwise, not deliberate antisemitism.


Ascribe. Ascribe. What an idiot.
 
2012-11-16 01:49:57 PM  

ChipNASA: [bokertov.typepad.com image 480x303]

/stokes the fire


b-b-b-but the JEWS!
 
2012-11-16 01:50:38 PM  
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7438027/80737255#c80737255" target="_blank">bostonguy</a>:</b> <i>Since a certain Farker who's name I won't mention isn't here because of Shabbat, I'll try to keep people updated. This former journalist will try to be neutral, but I have an obvious personal interest. :).</i>

Thanks, and accept my "me too" to your "stay safe" list. Good luck, we're all counting on you.
/Altogether?
 
2012-11-16 01:50:53 PM  

FitzShivering: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Duuurrrrrr......religion.....hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r


/it's 2012 for fark's sake
//science ftw

I bet you'd get pretty upset if they launched a missile at the Large Hadron Collider, though. :D


Yes. Because that's actually WORTH something.
 
2012-11-16 01:51:20 PM  
bostonguy
That's why my personal solution would be to transfer to populations of Gaza and the West Bank to Egypt and Jordan, respectively.

The terrifying part is that this opinion is probably pretty mainstream in Israel.


Seraphym
Do some farking research or pay more attention, and quit posting that little 4-month span of "only a few rockets" chart from 2008 - you know, 4½ YEARS AGO? Read. Through. These. Articles. about the 2500+ ROCKETS AND MORTARS FIRED SINCE THAT FARKING CHART. And that chart spiked because it never hit 0 to begin with.

The point is that Hamas and Israel made the cease-fire on the condition that Israel ease the blockade, which didn't happen. Hamas held up their end and Israel didn't.

2) The "You know the Palestinians are going to fire rockets at you some more, Israel, so why don't you try something different?" argument also begs the question that the Palestinians have no other choice but to spend their money and time to build more rockets to fire at civilians,

Israel has the overwhelming monopoly of force and effective total control. There is nothing the Palestinians can do that can seriously affect Israel.

Their leaders, Hamas, who they elected, who then proceeded to kill off Fatah (who runs the West Bank) members to gain total power in Gaza,

after winning the election, which Fatah refused to recognize

How about they fight Hamas who turns their lives into total shiat, instead?
...
Quit treating the Palestinians like dumb brutes with no options of their own


and yet it's the Israel-apologists who are always saying Israel is "forced" to do airstrikes and the blockade.
 
2012-11-16 01:53:33 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: Lunaville: SpectroBoy: Galloping Galoshes: You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

And the Palestinian position is "Give back the land you stole from us and stop bombing us and we won't need to shoot back!"

These two statements really are the heart of the conflict. What if there was an attempt to create a plan that would be acceptable to both sides? Trying to draw on many of the ideas presented by other people up thread, I propose the following as a starting point.

1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.
2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
3. The UN oversees a resettlement fund supported by all participating UN countries and authorized to accept private donations. The fund would provide each family an extremely modest home on, let's say, an 1/8th acre of land and a one year monthly food stipend equivalent to $30 dollars per person to allow time for these people to get on their feet and become self-supporting.
4. All military aid is ended to the entire region, including Israel. Humanitarian aid may be continued provided it is not converted to military use.

Hey, at least you're trying.


It's deeply flawed though. My proposal assumes, without warrant, that the entirety of the Palestinian population is willing to relocate and adopt a new national identity. It overlooks that the fact that many Palestinians are or were farmers. How is a person supposed to farm olives on an 1/8th acre of land? Someone out there has to have a better idea.
 
2012-11-16 01:56:00 PM  
give me doughnuts
-are outside their country of nationality or habitual residence;

how the fark does this not apply 

anyway I know you're full of shiat because there are Hmong people living in refugee camps in Thailand who are second-generation residents and are still considered refugees
 
2012-11-16 01:56:13 PM  

BigNumber12: kindms


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/assassinating-the-ch a nce-for-calm.html

How about the dailybeast ?
 
2012-11-16 01:57:24 PM  

Lunaville: 1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.

Hamas and the PA won't agree to this.

2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
None of the nations surrounding Israel will agree to this. "Our poor mistreated Palestinian brothers" are far too useful politically right where they are to actually help.
 
2012-11-16 01:57:34 PM  

give me doughnuts: Cynicism101: liam76: arabs in ISrael is growing faster than the jewish population.

In a way that's worse than a stable population, because Israel has severely limited the amount of water available to Palestinians, as well as farmland.
/look up how many wells ended up on the Israeli side of the wall
//UN has a report on it that I'm too lazy to google.

Darn those Israelis for not building enough pipelines, and not supplying even more water to he Gaza Strip.

Too bad those 3000 greenhouses that American Jewish donor bought from Isarali settlers and gave to the Palestinian Authority got looted ad stripped to the ground. I wonder how much food they could have grown?


The source of the water ended up, largely, on the Israeli side. I don't know how much water could have been grown in 3000 greenhouses without water. I'm guessing not very much.
 
2012-11-16 01:57:48 PM  
Well it looks like Israel is going to be redeveloping another part of their country with some 30k - 75k government employees.

Hamas really doesn't have the interests of gazians (?) at mind anymore. Israel is going to find anything that isn't a firecracker and destroy it.
 
2012-11-16 01:59:12 PM  

give me doughnuts: Lunaville: 1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.
Hamas and the PA won't agree to this.

2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
None of the nations surrounding Israel will agree to this. "Our poor mistreated Palestinian brothers" are far too useful politically right where they are to actually help.


Yes, it is certainly a difficulty. I'm not sure it's insurmountable with properly applied pressure.
 
2012-11-16 02:00:35 PM  

KellyX: and then just early in the week killed Hamas' military leader and a bunch of civilians in the process... What did they think would happen? And now to act like they have the justification to invade and slaughter the Palestinians after basically starting the fight themselves?



You're right, Israel should be writing Hamas a Thank-You note for each aerial delivery of precious construction materials like plumbing piping and fertilizer that they send.
 
2012-11-16 02:00:36 PM  

solitary: This land is mine, God gave this land to me!



Excellent.

Had to re-link.

/Lyrics by Pat Boone?
//Sung by Andy Williams?
///Nina Paley made it all make sense.
 
2012-11-16 02:01:59 PM  
i.imgur.com

/just in case you missed it the other day
 
2012-11-16 02:02:39 PM  

Lunaville: Galloping Galoshes: Lunaville: SpectroBoy: Galloping Galoshes: You don't gather much. The Israeli position is "don't shoot at us, and we won't shoot back. If you do shoot at us, don't be surprised what happens then."

And the Palestinian position is "Give back the land you stole from us and stop bombing us and we won't need to shoot back!"

These two statements really are the heart of the conflict. What if there was an attempt to create a plan that would be acceptable to both sides? Trying to draw on many of the ideas presented by other people up thread, I propose the following as a starting point.

1. Each European Union country, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia each agree to accept 40,000 refugees from Palestine above the number they currently accept each year.
2. Nations surrounding Israel are pressured via the UN, a media campaign, and, if necessary economic sanctions into accepting the remaining Palestinians into their nations with full citizenship rights.
3. The UN oversees a resettlement fund supported by all participating UN countries and authorized to accept private donations. The fund would provide each family an extremely modest home on, let's say, an 1/8th acre of land and a one year monthly food stipend equivalent to $30 dollars per person to allow time for these people to get on their feet and become self-supporting.
4. All military aid is ended to the entire region, including Israel. Humanitarian aid may be continued provided it is not converted to military use.

Hey, at least you're trying.

It's deeply flawed though. My proposal assumes, without warrant, that the entirety of the Palestinian population is willing to relocate and adopt a new national identity. It overlooks that the fact that many Palestinians are or were farmers. How is a person supposed to farm olives on an 1/8th acre of land? Someone out there has to have a better idea.


Well, fundamentally, it assumes that the problem is between Israel and the Palestinians. The problem is much deeper and far more complex. It's roots go to cold war conflict and securing energy supplies.
 
2012-11-16 02:02:53 PM  
and

i.imgur.com
 
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