If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Detroit Free Press)   Mitch Albom on AL MVP: Suck it, stat geeks   (freep.com) divider line 332
    More: Cool, American League, MVP, al mvp, Miggy, Angel Stadium, backup player, Baseball Writers Association of America, clutch hitting  
•       •       •

1302 clicks; posted to Sports » on 16 Nov 2012 at 11:27 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



332 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-11-16 08:51:32 AM
I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.
 
2012-11-16 09:06:45 AM
In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.
 
2012-11-16 09:07:16 AM

FreakinB: I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.


Yeah, I'm pretty much in this camp
 
2012-11-16 09:18:47 AM
I wonder if anyone took into account how many extra runs scored this year on the Giants because of Buster Pussy abdicating a major part of his defensive position.
Hahahhahahaa. Who am I kidding.
 
2012-11-16 09:37:12 AM
Absolutely no one should be surprised by this.
 
2012-11-16 09:42:01 AM
22-6? I expected a closer vote.
 
2012-11-16 10:10:38 AM
So basically the old stats still hold sway over the MVP but not the Cy Young awards?
 
2012-11-16 10:11:32 AM

SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.


With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third
 
2012-11-16 10:20:11 AM

Grote-Man: SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third


Wouldn't it be awesome if we had a way to compare players based on their individual contributions, independent of overall team performance, and make a decision based on that for who has the most value? How cool would that be?
 
2012-11-16 10:20:22 AM

Grote-Man: SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third


This statement is true.
 
2012-11-16 10:23:33 AM

Nefarious: So basically the old stats still hold sway over the MVP but not the Cy Young awards?


I think the playoffs thing was what really held sway, and that's not so much of a new school/old school thing - it is more of different definitions of "valuable", which can come from either camp.

If neither team makes the playoffs, maybe Cabrera still wins, but it's probably closer. A few Cabrera voters have said that the deciding factor for them was that Detroit got to the postseason and the Angels did not.
 
2012-11-16 10:27:25 AM
I don't think this was really a loss for Sabermetrics. The MVP voters picked Cabrera even though Trout was clearly the better candidate because they didn't want to vote against the first Triple Crown winner in 40 years.

Keep the stats the same, but have someone break up the Triple Crown? Say, if Josh Hamilton had hit two more home runs. I think if that had happened, Trout would have won in a close election.
 
2012-11-16 10:50:56 AM
Also, anyone know why no NL MVP thread? Every single one has gone red.
 
2012-11-16 10:58:37 AM

roc6783: Also, anyone know why no NL MVP thread? Every single one has gone red.


I'm assuming that because it was never in doubt, a NL thread would be boring.

This thread will be better, especially with people saying things like "Trout was the clear winner." Except he wasn't. The winner is whoever gets the most votes.
 
2012-11-16 11:08:56 AM

FreakinB: I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.


No one would have a problem with it if morons like Albom didn't have jobs, since they actually say dumb sh*t like this:

"Yes, it's true, Trout is faster, Trout is a better defensive player, Trout is a leadoff hitter, and Trout edged Cabrera in several of those made-for-Microsoft categories.

But if you are going to go molten deep into intangibles,"

Motherf*cker, intangibles is an actual word that has actual meaning and those are not intangibles. This man has a job where he gets to write about baseball (and sports in general) to a large audience, and he calls speed (based on measured statistics) and defense, not to mention lineup position and sabermetric categories as "intangibles."
 
2012-11-16 11:22:46 AM
And MLB takes yet another step in becoming Over The Line, a game known locally as "Hit it, drunk fattie!".
 
2012-11-16 11:27:25 AM
Every article I've read say that AL players and coaches to a man (except for the Angels) think Cabrera deserved it. I'll defer to their opinions
 
2012-11-16 11:30:22 AM

generalDisdain: And MLB takes yet another step in becoming Over The Line, a game known locally as "Hit it, drunk fattie!".


Over the line was fun as hell the one time I played it.

/frustrating having teammates that didn't just get hits every time though
//with that lob you can pretty much put it wherever you want to
 
2012-11-16 11:31:34 AM
Fark Mitch Albolm.
 
2012-11-16 11:31:41 AM
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way a stat guy and know little about new stats.

That said, I thought this was an interesting stat: Cabrera .420 with 2 outs and RISP. Trout .286 with 2 outs and RISP.
 
2012-11-16 11:34:56 AM
Why do I get the feeling that 50 years ago, the "stat geeks" would have been the ones voting for Cabrera because he led in the statistical categories that most people look at, while the "old school" baseball writers would have been the ones voting for Trout because of his stellar fielding?
 
2012-11-16 11:35:11 AM

IAmRight: generalDisdain: And MLB takes yet another step in becoming Over The Line, a game known locally as "Hit it, drunk fattie!".

Over the line was fun as hell the one time I played it.

/frustrating having teammates that didn't just get hits every time though
//with that lob you can pretty much put it wherever you want to


I love the fact that game was invented because Boozeball (softball with beer coolers as bases) had too much running in it.
 
2012-11-16 11:36:38 AM
One can only hope the five people Albom meets in Heaven will be Sabremetricians willing to explain the error of his ways for all eternity.
 
2012-11-16 11:36:43 AM

Arkanaut: Why do I get the feeling that 50 years ago, the "stat geeks" would have been the ones voting for Cabrera because he led in the statistical categories that most people look at, while the "old school" baseball writers would have been the ones voting for Trout because of his stellar fielding?


Again not a stat guy so dont yell at me.....

How many runs did he save with his play in the field? I am sure there is stat that quantifies that.

How does that compare to Miggy's?
 
2012-11-16 11:38:59 AM

js34603: Fark Mitch Albolm.


This. I was sort of on the fence, thinking either guy could have an argument made for them, but if Mitch Albom is for Miggy, then I'm for anybody else.
 
2012-11-16 11:44:28 AM

generalDisdain: I love the fact that game was invented because Boozeball (softball with beer coolers as bases) had too much running in it.


We played it on base for a fundraiser or something so we didn't even get to play it with booze, as God intended. :(
 
2012-11-16 11:46:16 AM
Never read this guy before. Wow he's an a--hole.
 
2012-11-16 11:47:21 AM

Grote-Man: SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third



The Angels had a better record than the Tigers, and they didn't have the Royals, Twins, and Indians in their division.
 
2012-11-16 11:50:53 AM

Gunny Highway: Arkanaut: Why do I get the feeling that 50 years ago, the "stat geeks" would have been the ones voting for Cabrera because he led in the statistical categories that most people look at, while the "old school" baseball writers would have been the ones voting for Trout because of his stellar fielding?

Again not a stat guy so dont yell at me.....

How many runs did he save with his play in the field? I am sure there is stat that quantifies that.

How does that compare to Miggy's?


That's what WAR calculates- it factored in defense and baserunning in addition to offense. The difference was not inconsiderable, although whether the difference was huge or huger can be up for debate. Nate Silver had Trout as saving 11 runs and Miggie costing Detroit 10 runs, if that means anything.
 
2012-11-16 11:53:25 AM

nein: Gunny Highway: Arkanaut: Why do I get the feeling that 50 years ago, the "stat geeks" would have been the ones voting for Cabrera because he led in the statistical categories that most people look at, while the "old school" baseball writers would have been the ones voting for Trout because of his stellar fielding?

Again not a stat guy so dont yell at me.....

How many runs did he save with his play in the field? I am sure there is stat that quantifies that.

How does that compare to Miggy's?

That's what WAR calculates- it factored in defense and baserunning in addition to offense. The difference was not inconsiderable, although whether the difference was huge or huger can be up for debate. Nate Silver had Trout as saving 11 runs and Miggie costing Detroit 10 runs, if that means anything.


Interesting.
 
2012-11-16 11:53:54 AM
The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years? Triple freaking Crown? I don't care if Trout played the entire year blindfolded. If you win the Triple Crown, you are the MVP. This shouldn't have even been a discussion. Look, Trout had a great year... There's no arguing that. But if he won the MVP, it would have been a travesty.
 
2012-11-16 11:53:57 AM

nein: Nate Silver had Trout as saving 11 runs and Miggie costing Detroit 10 runs, if that means anything.


But...but...Cabrera switched to a position he'd only played for several years for the Marlins! What an achievement! What an incredibly amazing player he must be to have played a position he'd played for most of his life!
 
2012-11-16 11:54:25 AM

NuttierThanEver: Every article I've read say that AL players and coaches to a man (except for the Angels) think Cabrera deserved it. I'll defer to their opinions


Yeah, and AL coaches once gave Rafael Palmeiro after he played a handful of games at 1B and the rest at DH. Fans who look carefully would be surprised to know that coaches/managers are consistently pretty bad at evaluating actual production (evaluating production and talent/skills are two very different things). Players are even worse; after all, most players got there through hard work and talent, not by assessing how good the other is.
 
2012-11-16 11:56:05 AM

CCCarnie: The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years? Triple freaking Crown? I don't care if Trout played the entire year blindfolded. If you win the Triple Crown, you are the MVP. This shouldn't have even been a discussion. Look, Trout had a great year... There's no arguing that. But if he won the MVP, it would have been a travesty.


Yeah, and what if Miggie committed 35 errors at 3B and Detroit missed the playoffs by 1 game?
 
2012-11-16 11:56:22 AM

IAmRight: generalDisdain: I love the fact that game was invented because Boozeball (softball with beer coolers as bases) had too much running in it.

We played it on base for a fundraiser or something so we didn't even get to play it with booze, as God intended. :(


Wow. That's terrible. That's like playing quarters for shots of buttermilk.
 
2012-11-16 11:57:24 AM

IAmRight: FreakinB: I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.

No one would have a problem with it if morons like Albom didn't have jobs, since they actually say dumb sh*t like this:

"Yes, it's true, Trout is faster, Trout is a better defensive player, Trout is a leadoff hitter, and Trout edged Cabrera in several of those made-for-Microsoft categories.

But if you are going to go molten deep into intangibles,"

Motherf*cker, intangibles is an actual word that has actual meaning and those are not intangibles. This man has a job where he gets to write about baseball (and sports in general) to a large audience, and he calls speed (based on measured statistics) and defense, not to mention lineup position and sabermetric categories as "intangibles."


I wonder what would happen if one national broadcaster/writer started using sabermetric stats to discuss players and stopped relying on "mystique of the game" to create disingenuous story lines. I know that has about as much chance of happening as Jon Gruden stopping saying "This guy" though.

///I loved how the Brewers broadcasters kept using wins as their first go to stat when they were talking about possible Cy Young winners. It made me want to strangle them.

ignatius_crumbcake: roc6783: Also, anyone know why no NL MVP thread? Every single one has gone red.

I'm assuming that because it was never in doubt, a NL thread would be boring.


I guess...fine.
 
2012-11-16 11:57:32 AM

Rex_Banner: FreakinB: I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.

Yeah, I'm pretty much in this camp


Not to start crap but, I though Miggy deserved it regardless. Any other year and Trout gets it without question; IIRC didn't Trout hit something like under .200 the last month of the season while Cabrera hit at about his season BA during the same period?
 
2012-11-16 12:00:03 PM
Nate Silver had Trout as saving 11 runs and Miggie costing Detroit 10 runs, if that means anything.

It doesn't.
 
2012-11-16 12:01:03 PM

Grote-Man: SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third


With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California had more wins than the Tigers and didn't lose a World Series in embarrassing fashion. Without Trout, the Tigers are still lucky they play in one of the worst divisions in baseball.
 
2012-11-16 12:01:38 PM

CCCarnie: The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years?


Ted Williams AND Lou Gehrig both won the triple crown and didn't win their league MVP award that same year. TMYK
 
2012-11-16 12:01:48 PM

CCCarnie: The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years? Triple freaking Crown? I don't care if Trout played the entire year blindfolded. If you win the Triple Crown, you are the MVP. This shouldn't have even been a discussion. Look, Trout had a great year... There's no arguing that. But if he won the MVP, it would have been a travesty.


Except for the other times it happened.
 
2012-11-16 12:02:03 PM

roc6783: I wonder what would happen if one national broadcaster/writer started using sabermetric stats to discuss players and stopped relying on "mystique of the game" to create disingenuous story lines. I know that has about as much chance of happening as Jon Gruden stopping saying "This guy" though.


I don't hate it as much from broadcasters because hell, they're on TV or radio, it's an oral production, and numbers make for really bad storytelling. But in print, you can keep track of the numbers pretty easily. You can organize them so they're easily digested. You have time to go look and research things - like, maybe, checking out what stats do exist, rather than spending the whole column saying "maybe they'll figure out a way to quantify a random memory I had about how things this guy does happen ALL the time in my memory while they don't happen for a guy I never watched!"
 
2012-11-16 12:02:33 PM

roc6783: ///I loved how the Brewers broadcasters kept using wins as their first go to stat when they were talking about possible Cy Young winners. It made me want to strangle them.


Some people dont want to hear about new stats. Old guys like the stats they grew up with and that is fine. The truth on the "old useless stats" is somewhere in the middle. They arent worthless but they arent the end all be all.
 
2012-11-16 12:02:48 PM

CCCarnie: The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years? Triple freaking Crown? I don't care if Trout played the entire year blindfolded. If you win the Triple Crown, you are the MVP. This shouldn't have even been a discussion. Look, Trout had a great year... There's no arguing that. But if he won the MVP, it would have been a travesty.


No, you get the Hank Aaron Award. You know, the award given to the best hitter.
 
2012-11-16 12:03:06 PM

Nefarious: So basically the old stats still hold sway over the MVP but not the Cy Young awards?


Maybe it's because of the factors talked about in TFA. Cabrera was out there as a leader for his team every day. Pitchers drink beer and eat chicken four out of five days. Leadership qualities differ between the positions.
 
2012-11-16 12:04:07 PM

Rwa2play: Rex_Banner: FreakinB: I was one of the people in the threads making the case for Trout, and I would've voted for him. With that said, I'm not at all upset about this. Congrats Miggy.

Yeah, I'm pretty much in this camp

Not to start crap but, I though Miggy deserved it regardless. Any other year and Trout gets it without question; IIRC didn't Trout hit something like under .200 the last month of the season while Cabrera hit at about his season BA during the same period?


Mike Trout, from September 1 until the end of the season, hit .289/.400/.500, which is pretty damn good. Miguel Cabrera, however, over that same span, hit .333/.395/.675
 
2012-11-16 12:04:18 PM

bhcompy: Grote-Man: SilentStrider: In any other year, Cabrera would be the MVP. He shouldn't have been this year. Trout was the clear winner.

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California finished third. Without Trout the Angels would have finished third

With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California had more wins than the Tigers and didn't lose a World Series in embarrassing fashion. Without Trout, the Tigers are still lucky they play in one of the worst divisions in baseball.


Would you rather lose the WS in embarrassing fashion or not get there at all?

The award is meaningless. People will remember that both guys had amazing seasons.
 
2012-11-16 12:05:47 PM

bhcompy: With Trout, the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County of California had more wins than the Tigers and didn't lose a World Series in embarrassing fashion. Without Trout, the Tigers are still lucky they play in one of the worst divisions in baseball.


I love how not making the playoffs in a good division is a more impressive achievement than making the World Series now.
 
2012-11-16 12:06:13 PM

bhcompy: CCCarnie: The guy won the Triple Crown... Did people miss that? First time in 45 years? Triple freaking Crown? I don't care if Trout played the entire year blindfolded. If you win the Triple Crown, you are the MVP. This shouldn't have even been a discussion. Look, Trout had a great year... There's no arguing that. But if he won the MVP, it would have been a travesty.

No, you get the Hank Aaron Award. You know, the award given to the best hitter.


The award is given to the most valuable player. I dont think the word valuable has any concrete definition in regards to the word so opinions may vary.
 
2012-11-16 12:06:25 PM

roc6783: I loved how the Brewers broadcasters kept using wins as their first go to stat when they were talking about possible Cy Young winners. It made me want to strangle them.


Blue Jays announcers when they had Marco Scutaro as lead off: "some guy did a study and said OBP was important. I think we're doing that now." finish 86-76

The following year after Cito said F that and made everyone all about dingers: "we lead the league in homers. Fark yeah." finish 85-77

It's fun to hear the old player's attitudes toward sabremetrics.
 
Displayed 50 of 332 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report