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(Crooks & Liars)   Wal-mart workers are planning the company's first ever walk-out. On Black Friday   (occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com) divider line 709
    More: Followup, unfair labor practice, Center for Independent Media  
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20635 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Nov 2012 at 8:59 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-16 01:58:08 PM  

RedVentrue: They tax the shiat out of everyone over there, too.


Places like Canada really aren't bad for taxes at all. The benefits far outweigh the costs, and, say, 25k is far below the level where the magnitude of the impact would be too much compared to the tax rates in the US - at the very least, the offset of social services for those making 25k would more than make up for it.
 
2012-11-16 02:06:50 PM  

ox45tallboy: MagicPlasticTreeFrog: My point is, even if wal-mart jobs paid well and had benefits, the employees would still complain. I wish them the best, but it is human nature to grow accustomed to what we have and always want more.

That was a rather condescending bit of crap.

I'm glad that you have what these employees are asking for. Honestly, if 3/4 of your time is spent goofing off, then you have quite a bit more. But you sound like a real jerk when you say, "well, it's human nature. If you give 'em what they ask for, then they'll just want more."

These people aren't getting what they have been promised. Is that just "human nature"? Is it just "human nature" for my sister to expect health insurance when she works 40 hours a week but is still considered a "part time" employee? Is a little consistency in scheduling wrong to expect? Is it "human nature" to demand that employees be compensated for overtime, rather than be told they must stand around (and not leave the premises) the next day in order that you not be working 40 hours?


Yes. Dial back time a few decades and many of the expectations you say your sister wants from her job were not even common place. Once workers and legislators got those benefits working, the working class started asking for more.

Also, if your sister is getting fleeced that badly, she should really do something about it.
 
2012-11-16 02:20:31 PM  

MagicPlasticTreeFrog: Yes. Dial back time a few decades and many of the expectations you say your sister wants from her job were not even common place. Once workers and legislators got those benefits working, the working class started asking for more.

Also, if your sister is getting fleeced that badly, she should really do something about it.


Dial it back a few decades and many people had good pension plans that they were being offered for staying with their company. Also, most workers were being paid more (adjusted for inflation).
 
2012-11-16 02:47:21 PM  

Howlin Mad Murphy: How do you assholes want it? You biatch and moan about a lot of these same people being on welfare, then you want to put them down for standing up for themselves and demanding livable wages. Oooh, please someone save the multi-billion dollar corporation! They shouldn't have to pay their employees anymore because they are worthless pieces of shiat that knew what they were getting into. Give me a farking break.


THIS a lot.
 
2012-11-16 02:57:38 PM  

Buffalo77: apt311

I worked at Walmart while in college. Granted, a lot of my coworkers struggled with basic language arts, let alone what a second grader would consider kiddie math. I can honestly say that Walmart pays its employees just enough to shop at Walmart. Even if you make "manager", they're always p****ed off because they are moved around so much between stores that they are more worried about meeting corporate numbers than developing their subordinates.

Genius business plan; but has to fail at some point. Maybe this is that point?

I know all you little IT and other salaried peckers out there like to believe different, but you are paid exactly what you are worth. Thx for proving my point. You are owed exactly what you are worth, what job skills you bring to the table.

If it a living wage (laughable term) then so be it. If you can't make it on what you get a Wal Mart, the work another job. Work overnight at the Jack in the Box. Develop more marketable skills or basic learning as the redneck boys would say.

There will always be another idiot that chose to screw off in school rather than actually learn basic skills coming up right behind you.


Yeah um, if you'll note, the key phrase to rebut your tirade is "while in college". You're right though, if I hadn't "screwed off while in school" then maybe I could have done better than Salutatorian.

But not by much...

Sorry, got to get back to my career now. Been fun.
 
2012-11-16 03:09:18 PM  
Am I reading this wrong or do they expect Walmart to pay everyone (including cashiers and bag boys) at least 25k a year?
 
2012-11-16 03:12:35 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: What's cool about having someone on your ignore list is that you can put a note in there that will be displayed each time the ignored person posts something.

And it is filter-free.


Filter-free?!? Egads!!
 
2012-11-16 03:34:10 PM  

DeathCipris: Dunno if this has already been said during the 648 comments already in this thread, but...
Mistreatment of workers? Coming from the same company that took out "secret" life insurance policies on employees and pocketed a large amount of the return when they kicked it?

Bwah? Color me surprised...


Google "Wal-Mart: and "Dead peasants insurance" for more details.
 
2012-11-16 03:40:51 PM  

BummerDuck: To a certain degree I see the bleeding heart point...but 25k is about $12 dollars an hour. Expecting that in pay for a zero skills job is pretty ridiculous. Expecting it with health care is out of the question if you are trying to run the cheapest store in town.

I had 2-3 jobs going through college, crappy no skill jobs like Walmart. I did a good job, and didn't whine about the pay, but I didn't plan on staying for life. And working along side career minimum wagers really was a shot in the arm to finish my degree. If they choose to stay, then I choose not to care about their plight.

If we were talking about a skilled position, like machinists, then that would be totally different.


Machinist here. I had to move to Minneapolis from Denver in order to find work that didn't come with the presupposition that I was just a button pusher who should be happy he had a job in the first place. Biggest contributing factor? Minneapolis has a fairly decent union presence and although MN is practically a right to work state the plants around here know that if they don't treat their workers with respect they'll unionize right quick and the public would back them up.

You may think that paying someone barely enough money to feed themselves and make rent for allocating 1/2 of their lives to making someone money is ok, but for the most part those values have been shunned by this country at large since the New Deal. We've only had Reagonomics for 30 years, and the result has been a shrinking middle class and a drop in standard of living. We do best as a country when we operate on the principle of providing a good and free education and stimulating demand by paying a comfortably livable wage. 30+ years of the most prosperous economic growth after WWII to the stagnation for the middle and lower class that has been the "Supply Side Economics" of late? Sorry, the choice is a no brainer.

Capitalism is not the temple at which our founders worshipped when they fought for independence. Freedom, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That includes a regulated market where one's labor could earn him a comfortable living.
 
2012-11-16 03:48:28 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: any defeat for organized Labor is a victory for the American Economy.


Economies are people, my friend!
 
2012-11-16 04:21:31 PM  

timujin: I'm going to give you a 3/10 for this one. Sure, there are more workers than this type of work to be done, but there are 3,000,000 unfilled jobs in this country right now. Those are jobs that require certain types of training, though, and we're not doing what we can as a country to get people that training.


BULLSHIAT, BULLSHIAT, BULLAHIAT!
Let me fix that for you:
Those are jobs that require certain types of training, though, and we're not doing what we can as a country to get people that training employers expect to hire people who have either paid out of their pockets or had subsidized schooling for the exact training and experience to fill those jobs.

So yes, employers don't want to spend any time or money training anyone. It's their problem, not anyone else's. The hiring requirements are so narrow and specific and the HR hurdles are so high and exclusive right now, it's not wonder the economy is shiatting out its guts right now.
Low wages stifle demand.
Until employers get this through their greedy heads, nothing will change.
Until employers invest in their workforce and show some reciprocal loyalty, they're going to suffer.
 
2012-11-16 06:12:54 PM  
EVERYBODY PANIC:

Hmmm. Okay. Let's do this.

Nobody forced anybody to hire on at a low wage and with not-the-best benefits. If it was not good enough when they all hired on (and the terms were made very clear to everybody at the time of hiring) what made all these people take the jobs? Seriously, why did they scramble for these jobs?

In the minds of the applicants, getting hired at Wal*Mart was a great deal. It had to be the best opportunity they thought that they could achieve, having made little effort earlier in life to acquire a useful skill or education. They happily accepted the terms, conditions, pay rates and benefits and acted grateful at the time they hired on. Nobody made them go work at Wal*Mart and nobody forced them to stay on over the long haul.

I am not a Wal*Mart employee, or particularly a huge fan, and I am not a conservative if that matters to you. I am just a person who understand that if you agree to a contract, you should have the honor and dignity to live by it or to cancel it and walk away from it. It is a contract, just a contract, and even when you enter into a bad contract, it was your choice, just as leaving and voiding a contract is a choice.

Note: Lawful marriage is a shiatty contract by design, but folks enter into that one all the time, and the people with integrity make the best of it.


This is complete horse shiat. Very few people who get a job at Walmart think it is a great deal. Most of them take that job, or similar low-paying shiat jobs, because they have the option of working there for slave wages or starving. I don't care if the people should have done this or that with their lives, they shouldn't be treated like dirt simply because you feel that it is a justified punishment for their lack of skills or education. These pay practices are one of the main reasons we are struggling as a nation. Period.
 
2012-11-16 06:14:34 PM  

DeathCipris: Dunno if this has already been said during the 648 comments already in this thread, but...
Mistreatment of workers? Coming from the same company that took out "secret" life insurance policies on employees and pocketed a large amount of the return when they kicked it?

Bwah? Color me surprised...


They stopped that in 1996 because Congress cracked down on the practice. Prior to that, though, it wasn't illegal for them to do so. It still isn't illegal for them to get life insurance policies on their employees, but they have to be in line with what the employee would actually cost the company if they die, the employee has to agree to it, and the company can't punish the employee for non-consent. They didn't prevent workers from getting their own life insurance policies and they didn't require workers to pay into the COLI policy for the return when the worker kicked the bucket.

My company has a policy on me that only pays out to them if I die. I have a separate policy that pays out to my family if I die. The only thing that was unusual about Wal-Mart's process was that they were insuring people who arguably didn't provide the benefit to the company that the policy covered.
 
2012-11-16 06:20:27 PM  

timujin: (Silly Jesus: There's an endless supply of dimwits ... blah, blah, blah ...)

*snip*

That's where you and I disagree, I think the supply is limited.


Exactly, especially if you also consider the timing. Most of these people were told they were going to work Thanksgiving, because Wal*Mart decided to start Black Friday shopping early. Now, I don't think this has to be posted, but usually people are doing other things on Thanksgiving. Like not working, for instance. But, now that a bunch of Wal*Mart employees are threatening NOT TO GO TO WORK it isn't the skill-level that Wal*Mart has to consider, but the people's availability that will determine if there will be enough staff to cover the biggest shopping day of the year.

There may be people who haven't worked in many months who would do it, but they might not meet the minimum requirements to learn company policy, store layout and equipment to replace the regular employees who are received more than a week's worth of training.

I say good luck to them and fark Wal*Mart, the chickens are coming home to roost.
 
2012-11-16 06:37:12 PM  

apt311: Even if you make "manager", they're always p****ed off because they are moved around so much between stores that they are more worried about meeting corporate numbers than developing their subordinates.


To me, this is the key difference between the Walmart and the 30 years of chain stores before them.

As a kid, one of my best friends' father was manager of the local K-Mart. He was born and raised in the town. He managed the place for ~20 years. Hired people who needed it, developed workers, cared about the store's place in the community, etc, etc. Compared to today, had a fair bit of autonomy in stocking choices, layout, etc.

Walmart's corporate policy is NOT to EVER let that happen. As a WM manager, you are moved around constantly and it's numbers, numbers, and obedience. Only things that matter.
 
2012-11-16 06:48:20 PM  

Great Janitor: ACallForPeace: Great Janitor: For those who don't like it there, find a different job or shut up.

Or organize and use your freedom of speech and association.
For some reason it's okay for management to be organized and put pressure on workers, but the reverse should be unthinkable and only be done by lazy deadbeats right?

I view it this way: I own a company. I decide how much a job is worth. A person applies for that job. I tell them what that job pays and what the duties involved are. They then make the choice as to whether or not they accept the job if it's offered. Since the worker does not own the company, they can ask for more money and I, the owner, can refuse. If the workers start to organize, I can exercise my right to fire the organizers.

These workers wanting better working conditions are going to have an easier task finding jobs that meet those better working conditions than they are trying to get Walmart to change.


At a basic level I agree with that - if it's a workplace of 50 people, then what you're saying is absolutely true. The problem I have is when you apply this same thought to something like Walmart in the sense that they're large enough to cause waves in other ways, like being large enough to become a loss leader and wipe local competition off the map, have an army of lawyers on retainer, or being so rich you can fund your own lobbyists.

I don't know how it can happen but basically the huge corporartions need to be held to a different set of rules because they're entirely too large for any group to deal with and can vastly alter the conditions of your example.
 
2012-11-16 07:07:50 PM  
I never go out shopping on Black Friday. And I would never normally spend my time in a Wal-Mart shopping mob of ultra-cheapskates.

However, it seems worth going out to the local Wallyworld to just see what unfolds. Not to buy anything of course, but to just cheer on any employees walking out.
 
2012-11-16 07:29:20 PM  

Fooby: I never go out shopping on Black Friday. And I would never normally spend my time in a Wal-Mart shopping mob of ultra-cheapskates.

However, it seems worth going out to the local Wallyworld to just see what unfolds. Not to buy anything of course, but to just cheer on any employees walking out.


I can't think of anything I need that would make me go thru that heck.
 
2012-11-16 08:00:17 PM  

ox45tallboy: EVERYBODY PANIC: I am not a Wal*Mart employee, or particularly a huge fan, and I am not a conservative if that matters to you. I am just a person who understand that if you agree to a contract, you should have the honor and dignity to live by it or to cancel it and walk away from it. It is a contract, just a contract, and even when you enter into a bad contract, it was your choice, just as leaving and voiding a contract is a choice.

Note: Lawful marriage is a shiatty contract by design, but folks enter into that one all the time, and the people with integrity make the best of it.

Okay, let's do this then.

Are you paying attention? Do you understand that my sister signed up for 4 days a week, not 5? Do you understand that if she works 40 hours a week, she is supposed to get insurance? Do you understand that she is required to come in on time on Friday nights, and then sit off the clock to cover any overtime? Do you really think for 2 seconds (obviously not) that she was told ANY of this before she took the job? Do you think it's just buried down in the fine print somewhere, and she should have read more?

Do you understand that this isn't about people who knew the conditions ahead of time now regretting having signed up to work at Wal-Mart? This is about Wal-Mart changing the rules, and habitually forcing employees to go along with things no one in their right mind would have ever agreed to had they known about it going in!

Please, try to keep up. When you go off on a sanctimonious, better-than-you rant like that, it helps if you have some idea of what you're talking about. Otherwise you just sound condescending.


Sorry for the late reply.

And sorry that your sister took a job which does so little for her, and sorry also that she stays in a job which does so little for her. But why does she not just walk away? She only lives once, and going thru life poor and miserable and feeling cheated - that just is so sad.

Tell me why she stays and takes crap off of Wal*Mart. I hate human suffering and unhappiness, I really do. You think me sanctimonious, when all I wish to convey is that people should make more careful choices about the important things. As for myself, I am a HS dropout raised in the swamps of Louisiana. Most of my life had been dirt poor as I had limited education and limited skills training. After age 40, I finally clawed my way out of poverty, and am doing well enough, though perhaps not as well as many. I've been there, my friend, and it sucks to be so damned poor for so many decades.

Now, back on topic... This is America, and in America people get to hire on and to quit. I got fired a couple times and walked away many times. The only folks who cannot quit are those who believe that they will be unhirable elsewhere, ever. That's a hell of a lot of fear to live with. It is this fear thing which holds down people, when the reality is that there are always options and opportunities for daring, imaginative and energetic people.

If Wal*Mart is as good as you believe you will ever have it, then fer cryin' out loud, make the best of it. Bust your guts and do the best job of anybody in your department. Be more pleasant and polite and kind than anybody else. They promote from within, so be worthy of the promotion. And focus on your company, your co-workers and your customers. Make yourself a better worker and a better person, for rewards usually come to those who earn it.

Or... you can make a picket sign and go stand outside in the cold. That always makes it better.
 
2012-11-16 09:03:42 PM  

EVERYBODY PANIC: ox45tallboy: EVERYBODY PANIC: I am not a Wal*Mart employee, or particularly a huge fan, and I am not a conservative if that matters to you. I am just a person who understand that if you agree to a contract, you should have the honor and dignity to live by it or to cancel it and walk away from it. It is a contract, just a contract, and even when you enter into a bad contract, it was your choice, just as leaving and voiding a contract is a choice.

Note: Lawful marriage is a shiatty contract by design, but folks enter into that one all the time, and the people with integrity make the best of it.

Okay, let's do this then.

Are you paying attention? Do you understand that my sister signed up for 4 days a week, not 5? Do you understand that if she works 40 hours a week, she is supposed to get insurance? Do you understand that she is required to come in on time on Friday nights, and then sit off the clock to cover any overtime? Do you really think for 2 seconds (obviously not) that she was told ANY of this before she took the job? Do you think it's just buried down in the fine print somewhere, and she should have read more?

Do you understand that this isn't about people who knew the conditions ahead of time now regretting having signed up to work at Wal-Mart? This is about Wal-Mart changing the rules, and habitually forcing employees to go along with things no one in their right mind would have ever agreed to had they known about it going in!

Please, try to keep up. When you go off on a sanctimonious, better-than-you rant like that, it helps if you have some idea of what you're talking about. Otherwise you just sound condescending.

Sorry for the late reply.

And sorry that your sister took a job which does so little for her, and sorry also that she stays in a job which does so little for her. But why does she not just walk away? She only lives once, and going thru life poor and miserable and feeling cheated - that just is so sad.

Tell me why she stays and takes crap ...


I have a cousin that does the same thing. Hates the job. Hates the management. Hates her co-workers. But she won't find something else and just quit.

On the other hand that's the way she's been with every job she's ever had ...
 
2012-11-16 09:11:58 PM  
When the united food and commercial worker's union gets a hold of walmart employees they'll be sorry.

1) Their conditions won't improve much.
2) Their net compensation will likely drop (after union dues)
3) Forget about the upward path that walmart offers. Pay is now by time in job. Doesn't matter how long or how hard or how fast they work.

How do I know this? I worked union retail when I was teenager.

If that's what walmart employees want, the ones that want it have every right to demand that. The problem is unions want to be a monopoly and everyone is forced into it. Union retail sucks too. I don't know what else to say.

Now as to the walmart employment horror stories, why not leave? Are there no Targets? No Safeways? No Kmarts? No Menards? No Home Depots? If these other places pay more and treat people better, just start applying at them. I am sure they would prefer someone with applicable experience than someone right off the street.

Oh and if you work for ma and pa, it's not going to be much better much of the time. Even the golden era of ma and pa stores workers were often cheated on their wages and had crappy hours. Same BS. Even when it was highly specialized product that required people working there to be like the geeks we refer to on the internet today.

The only way walmart or anyone else is going to get better is if they have to compete for labor.
 
2012-11-16 09:33:36 PM  

EVERYBODY PANIC: Or... you can make a picket sign and go stand outside in the cold. That always makes it better.


The latest unemployment numbers for Alabama show 8.1% unemployment. Normally, 4-5% is a Good Thing, because it means that people are trying to stay happy and employers are putting forth an effort in making them happy. What this means is that there are more people than there are jobs, so someone would expect to spend about 60% longer between jobs than when there is 5% unemployment.

My sister has 3 kids that depend on her to eat.

There is also the fact that finding a new job involves changing one's routines. Right now she works nights, leaves work at about 7AM, and gets home just in time to take the kids to school. Having only one car, this works out okay. But what happens if her new job starts at 8AM? Or worse, 7AM?

I'm not trying to paint this whole sob story about my sister being completely trapped. But I am trying to address the large number of people who believe that anyone can *just quit* if they don't like it. It's NEVER that simple when you have kids relying on you.

She'll work it out. I think right now she's going to tough it out for the next week and a half just to say "fark you" to the store, and encourage others to do the same. She'll manage, and they won't starve. But it will NOT be "easy".
 
2012-11-16 09:34:23 PM  

People_are_Idiots: ox45tallboy: People_are_Idiots: Whoa, a bigger idiot! Did I say FEDERAL law? I said CONSTITUTION. Constitution does not necessarily mean Federal. This is like saying Texas Law is valid in Arizona... next time, READ!

-10/10

Next time, figure out what the hell you are talking about. I called Great Janitor out for claiming that he had the right to fire anyone attempting to organize a Union. I pointed out an article discussing Constitutional Theory, as well as the Wagner Act. You butted in and called me "ignorant" and said I had no idea what I was talking about, and demanded a better reference. I linked straight to the Wagner Act, and now you're spouting off some nonsense about the Constitution and how Federal law Texas valid in Arizona... I have no idea what you think you are talking about, but I gave you the FEDERAL law which trumps any and all State laws. If that's not good enough for you, then fark off.

I rate you negative infinity/10. So there.

I know what I am talking about do you? The first thing you quoted was the Constitution in relation the union strikes. I pointed out the Constitution has no amendment or article saying a group of employees cannot leave work without risk of getting fired just to protest. A theory is at best an educated guess, but the Constitution does not protect you from loss of a job because you go outside when you're supposed to be working. At best you can complain in your off-time. THEN you decided to throw a Fed law at me. I'm not arguing on State or Fed law, I am arguing Constitutional law. You can argue Fed and State law til you're blue in the face, and I wouldn't disagree with you, but the subject matter is not such. Yes we have laws on the books, for those that want to put a union in a store (then again, there are ways around that). The Constitution however has no such article guaranteeing the right of striking.

That is what I'm concentrating on: The Constitution... wanna talk Fed law now, go on ahead.


The Constitution may not have anything specific on that...but it DOES have a little clause about how Congress can in fact make laws, and it would seem that Congress has in fact made a law (that is the law of the land) that says that a company can't fire employees simply for being on strike. It's also been around long enough that if the law in question had been seen as un-constitutional it'd have been ruled as such (especially after thirty years of Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats in office appointing Supreme Court justices).

Trust me, if Massey Coal could make it legal to fire striking workers, they would have :D

In fact, about the only times a union isn't allowed to strike is if they're considered a union for people working in essential infrastructure--Wally-World during Black Friday sales doesn't count; they're talking shiat like healthcare, police, fire, federal employees, municipal services like water, stuff like that. (Probably the best known union that routinely has "no strike because we're seriously essential" clauses in their contracts is AFSCME, a union primarily working with government and healthcare workers.)
 
2012-11-16 09:54:38 PM  

ox45tallboy: EVERYBODY PANIC: Or... you can make a picket sign and go stand outside in the cold. That always makes it better.

The latest unemployment numbers for Alabama show 8.1% unemployment. Normally, 4-5% is a Good Thing, because it means that people are trying to stay happy and employers are putting forth an effort in making them happy. What this means is that there are more people than there are jobs, so someone would expect to spend about 60% longer between jobs than when there is 5% unemployment.

My sister has 3 kids that depend on her to eat.

There is also the fact that finding a new job involves changing one's routines. Right now she works nights, leaves work at about 7AM, and gets home just in time to take the kids to school. Having only one car, this works out okay. But what happens if her new job starts at 8AM? Or worse, 7AM?

I'm not trying to paint this whole sob story about my sister being completely trapped. But I am trying to address the large number of people who believe that anyone can *just quit* if they don't like it. It's NEVER that simple when you have kids relying on you.

She'll work it out. I think right now she's going to tough it out for the next week and a half just to say "fark you" to the store, and encourage others to do the same. She'll manage, and they won't starve. But it will NOT be "easy".


It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.
 
2012-11-16 10:12:10 PM  

Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.


Yes, indeed. She chose to marry her first husband who put her in a bad situation. She chose to marry a second husband who got shot up in Iraq, and has had a hell of a time getting on disability. She chose to have a special needs child.

Fark you for blaming the victim.

Seriously, f*ck you.

I don't have anything else to say to you.
 
2012-11-16 10:16:40 PM  

ox45tallboy: Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.

Yes, indeed. She chose to marry her first husband who put her in a bad situation. She chose to marry a second husband who got shot up in Iraq, and has had a hell of a time getting on disability. She chose to have a special needs child.

Fark you for blaming the victim.

Seriously, f*ck you.

I don't have anything else to say to you.


We waited for our second child until it was financially feasible.

Who is she the victim of? WalMart? Seriously? She's had shiatty luck and some poor planning, but victim?

That's fine if you cut off anyone who disagrees with you. Just makes you the smaller person.

wellbye.jpg
 
2012-11-16 10:20:13 PM  

ox45tallboy: Okay people, since there are so many who do not understand what it is like for an average Wal-Mart employee:

Meet my sister. She's 31, married, with 3 kids. Her and her husband receive his disability pay from his service in Iraqi Freedom, but it's not enough to pay the bills. She took a "part time" job at nights at Wal-Mart, who told her that she would need to work night shift "until they got someone else", and they'd "giver her more hours", as in 40 instead of 32, until they "got night shift where they wanted it".

In the past ten months, she worked ONE week at less than 40 hours. But she is not allowed to get insurance, because she is a "part-time" employee. She has to be there for one year.

Day shift had an opening. However, her night shift manager said she was a great worker and he needed her on nights, so the day shift position went to a new hire.

At times, she is asked to stay over by her manager and do extra work. This work is on the clock, but there's a catch:

She is scheduled at 10:00 on Friday night. The end-of-week pay period is midnight Friday night. If she has worked over through the week, she must report in, but is not allowed to clock in because she could wind up with OVERTIME. Instead, she has to show that she came in to work on time, then she is free to stand in the parking lot with all the low-lifes who hang out at the Wal-Mart parking lot at 10:00 on Friday night.

But it gets better!

She was denied a raise at her 6-month eval for.... ATTENDANCE!

But she never misses work!

Guess what? All those times she clocked in late on Friday nights to avoid overtime - SHE WAS TARDY!

She just had a meeting with the GM of the store to address the insurance issue. She was told point blank she would not be receiving insurance becasue she was a "part time" employee. So, she changed her availability to ensure she would only be scheduled for 4 nights a week. Two days later, the schedule was changed back to 5 nights a week.

On Black Friday, she is supposed t ...


My uncle is a labor lawyer. If all that is true, she should find one. They work on contingency.
 
2012-11-16 10:24:11 PM  

Silly Jesus: We waited for our second child until it was financially feasible.

Who is she the victim of? WalMart? Seriously? She's had shiatty luck and some poor planning, but victim?

That's fine if you cut off anyone who disagrees with you. Just makes you the smaller person.

wellbye.jpg


Your words were

Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.


You don't know my sister, but you assume that anyone that works at Wal-Mart must have made "some very bad decisions", and should deal with the "consequences".

This isn't about me disagreeing with you, this is about your very personal insult to my sister, who you've never even met.

Seriously, f*ck you.
 
2012-11-16 10:25:51 PM  

Lsherm: My uncle is a labor lawyer. If all that is true, she should find one. They work on contingency.


Yeah, that's all she needs right now. Another legal case. But if he's in Alabama, I'm sure she'd be willing to talk to him. If so, EIP.
 
2012-11-16 10:26:50 PM  

ox45tallboy: Silly Jesus: We waited for our second child until it was financially feasible.

Who is she the victim of? WalMart? Seriously? She's had shiatty luck and some poor planning, but victim?

That's fine if you cut off anyone who disagrees with you. Just makes you the smaller person.

wellbye.jpg

Your words were

Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.

You don't know my sister, but you assume that anyone that works at Wal-Mart must have made "some very bad decisions", and should deal with the "consequences".

This isn't about me disagreeing with you, this is about your very personal insult to my sister, who you've never even met.

Seriously, f*ck you.


Did I say something that was incorrect?
 
2012-11-16 10:39:28 PM  

ox45tallboy: Lsherm: My uncle is a labor lawyer. If all that is true, she should find one. They work on contingency.

Yeah, that's all she needs right now. Another legal case. But if he's in Alabama, I'm sure she'd be willing to talk to him. If so, EIP.


He's retired in California. Tell her to look around - they are second only to personal injury attorneys in the phone book because settlements can net significant payouts.
 
2012-11-16 10:47:28 PM  

ACallForPeace: EVERYBODY PANIC: Nobody made them go work at Wal*Mart and nobody forced them to stay on over the long haul.

Because the options are so plenty. I'll repeat:
It is clear that when a person who is mugged hands over their money to the mugger they do so because they prefer it to the "next best alternative." As such, it is correct that people agree to sell their liberty to a boss because their "next best alternative" is worse (utter poverty or starvation are not found that appealing for some reason). But so what? As anarchists have been pointing out over a century, the capitalists have systematically used the state to create a limit options for the many, to create buyers' market for labour by skewing the conditions under which workers can sell their labour in the bosses favour. To then merrily answer all criticisms of this set-up with the response that the workers "voluntarily agreed" to work on those terms is just hypocrisy. Does it really change things if the mugger (the state) is only the agent (hired thug) of another criminal (the owning class)?

With your love of contracts I'd assume if someone forced to sign a contract allowing someone to harvest one of their organs at gunpoint (or at the threat of denying them food and shelter) you'd insist that the only honorable way to end this is for that cheapskate poor bastards to give his organ away?
I guess economic contracts exist in this magical vacuum with no outside circumstances surrounding them.


You, my friend, do not seem able to differentiate between an voluntary agreement (contract) and an involuntary, forced, coercive act (crime). They are mutually exclusive. Yes, I love the concept and application of contracts, as this is how civilized people should operate. If "someone is forced to sign a contract" as you state, then it is not a contract. Getting hired with a company, or quitting employment from a company is a moral matter, and is a choice one makes freely in America. Nobody at Wal*Mart is harvesting organs or holding a gun to anybody's head, nor are they denying anybody food or shelter. Where on earth do you come up with such a terrible set of examples by which to choose to discuss contracts?

Please stay with me here. I'm not angry with you or trying to demean you. But we seem to be discussing apples and oranges here. Well, there is a form of 'supposed' contract which is definably not a true contract at all, and you describe it rather well above. It is anything you have to sign which involves the government. It is not voluntary in many cases, and when the govt. is involved, it indeed can lead to the loss of vital goods and services. But that isn't a contract at all, but coercive domination. A contract is something where one's life, property and liberty are not under threat by people and organizations which really do have and use guns. As soon as guns are involved, for use or threat, all morality, decency, integrity and all pretenses to contractual relationships go out the window. Then it is just cold, hard tyranny.

I rather often do note that people who hate and/or misunderstand real contracts and businesses tend to adore coercive governments. Kinda. sad, but oh well.

All that people need to survive and to live with a reasonable hope for future gain and happiness is access to goods ad services. That's all it is really about. Love Wal*Mart or hate them, they are in the goods and services business. Nobody is forced to buy from them and nobody is forced to work for them. They are pretty good at what they do, and billions of people workdwide agree with this statement. But they do use government to bully people out of their property when they want to build a store, so in that regard, they suck. Using the govt. to push people off of their property is evil, and Walmart is guilty over and over in this matter. As I stated above, I'm no big fan of that company.

But back to the matter of contracts which, yes, I do love in principle and in practice. All a contract is is an agreement. That's all it means. I again ask you to provide examples of people being harmed by entering into a voluntary agreement. It is possible you know, to enter into a bad agreement voluntarily, but only if one enters into an agreement in which the terms are not fully understood. This is why one should use care with whom they make agreements. This is why one should get it in writing. THis is why one should have an educated person explain the terms in full before signing anything.
 
2012-11-16 11:02:50 PM  

ciberido: EVERYBODY PANIC: I am not a Wal*Mart employee, or particularly a huge fan, and I am not a conservative if that matters to you. I am just a person who understand that if you agree to a contract, you should have the honor and dignity to live by it or to cancel it and walk away from it. It is a contract, just a contract, and even when you enter into a bad contract, it was your choice, just as leaving and voiding a contract is a choice.

Note: Lawful marriage is a shiatty contract by design, but folks enter into that one all the time, and the people with integrity make the best of it.

Is it your assertion that Wal*Mart has never, ever gone back on their word or done anything that their contract or other official documents said they would not do, nor broken any laws? Despite the examples given in this thread and in the linked articles?

Because I think your argument kinda depends on the premise that Wal*Mart kept their end of the bargain.


Good point! I agree that Wal*Mart can be a shiatty employer. Wal*Mart does some pretty strange things to employees sometimes. We are all in perfect agreement in this regard. That's why I urge unhappy people to start looking for a better job. Or go into business for themselves (as I have). Heck yeah working for Wal*Mart is a rough situation for many people, but again, hey folks...QUIT! Much like being in a really bad marriage, you just make plans and at the right moment, get a divorce from your employer.

Losing a job at Wal*Mart is not the end of the world. Again, if that's all one is capable of, then stay and try to make yourself a better asset to them in hopes of eventual pay raises and promotions. I didn't ask anybody to take a crappy job at Wal*Mart or anyplace else, but if that is the limit of your employment expectations or abilities, well, you could be doing worse.

If you have the skills and education to better yourself, then start planning to move on. And as you slam the door behind you, do remember that when you needed a job, and couldn't get a better job anywhere, Wal*Mart was ther for you. Show a little class. Slam the door gently.
 
2012-11-16 11:22:42 PM  

ox45tallboy: EVERYBODY PANIC: Or... you can make a picket sign and go stand outside in the cold. That always makes it better.

The latest unemployment numbers for Alabama show 8.1% unemployment. Normally, 4-5% is a Good Thing, because it means that people are trying to stay happy and employers are putting forth an effort in making them happy. What this means is that there are more people than there are jobs, so someone would expect to spend about 60% longer between jobs than when there is 5% unemployment.

My sister has 3 kids that depend on her to eat.

There is also the fact that finding a new job involves changing one's routines. Right now she works nights, leaves work at about 7AM, and gets home just in time to take the kids to school. Having only one car, this works out okay. But what happens if her new job starts at 8AM? Or worse, 7AM?

I'm not trying to paint this whole sob story about my sister being completely trapped. But I am trying to address the large number of people who believe that anyone can *just quit* if they don't like it. It's NEVER that simple when you have kids relying on you.

She'll work it out. I think right now she's going to tough it out for the next week and a half just to say "fark you" to the store, and encourage others to do the same. She'll manage, and they won't starve. But it will NOT be "easy".


You never *just quit*. You find a new job THEN quit.
 
2012-11-16 11:28:44 PM  

Howlin Mad Murphy: EVERYBODY PANIC:

Hmmm. Okay. Let's do this.

Nobody forced anybody to hire on at a low wage and with not-the-best benefits. If it was not good enough when they all hired on (and the terms were made very clear to everybody at the time of hiring) what made all these people take the jobs? Seriously, why did they scramble for these jobs?

In the minds of the applicants, getting hired at Wal*Mart was a great deal. It had to be the best opportunity they thought that they could achieve, having made little effort earlier in life to acquire a useful skill or education. They happily accepted the terms, conditions, pay rates and benefits and acted grateful at the time they hired on. Nobody made them go work at Wal*Mart and nobody forced them to stay on over the long haul.

I am not a Wal*Mart employee, or particularly a huge fan, and I am not a conservative if that matters to you. I am just a person who understand that if you agree to a contract, you should have the honor and dignity to live by it or to cancel it and walk away from it. It is a contract, just a contract, and even when you enter into a bad contract, it was your choice, just as leaving and voiding a contract is a choice.

Note: Lawful marriage is a shiatty contract by design, but folks enter into that one all the time, and the people with integrity make the best of it.

This is complete horse shiat. Very few people who get a job at Walmart think it is a great deal. Most of them take that job, or similar low-paying shiat jobs, because they have the option of working there for slave wages or starving. I don't care if the people should have done this or that with their lives, they shouldn't be treated like dirt simply because you feel that it is a justified punishment for their lack of skills or education. These pay practices are one of the main reasons we are struggling as a nation. Period.

1 - "I don't care if the people should have done this or that with their lives..."

I do. You should.

2 - "Most of them take that job, or similar low-paying shiat jobs, because they have the option of working there for slave wages or starving..."
Are you implying that there are no other places in America to get a job? Even in the deepest depths of the 1st Great Depression, jobs were being lost and gained. Who was finding jobs in that terrible time? My uneducated grandfather for one. One of millions.

3 - "they shouldn't be treated like dirt simply because..."
I agree. Nobody should be treated like shiat, period. For any reason. By anybody. Thank you for this. I wish that people unhappy with working for Wal*Mart (or for anybody else who treats folks poorly) might seek employment elsewhere. It's not a perfect world, and this is not a perfect situation, but unhappy people can and often do - QUIT. And that's good. 
 
2012-11-16 11:29:10 PM  
Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.

ox45tallboy: Yes, indeed. She chose to marry her first husband who put her in a bad situation. She chose to marry a second husband who got shot up in Iraq, and has had a hell of a time getting on disability. She chose to have a special needs child.

Fark you for blaming the victim.

Seriously, f*ck you.

I don't have anything else to say to you.


You needn't bother. Silly Jesus has passed beyond what I call the Derpchild radius, the point at which Poe's Law collapses under the burden of its own derp. It's no longer possible to determine whether the farker is sincere, trolling, or sarcastic. Nor, ultimately does it matter. No rational argument will ever be able to escape that singularity. It's just mathematically impossible.
 
2012-11-16 11:42:25 PM  

ciberido: Silly Jesus: It comes down to life choices. She has three kids, one car, and works at Wal-Mart. Somewhere along the line some very bad decisions were made. These are the consequences. The Walton's didn't force her to make those decisions.

ox45tallboy: Yes, indeed. She chose to marry her first husband who put her in a bad situation. She chose to marry a second husband who got shot up in Iraq, and has had a hell of a time getting on disability. She chose to have a special needs child.

Fark you for blaming the victim.

Seriously, f*ck you.

I don't have anything else to say to you.

You needn't bother. Silly Jesus has passed beyond what I call the Derpchild radius, the point at which Poe's Law collapses under the burden of its own derp. It's no longer possible to determine whether the farker is sincere, trolling, or sarcastic. Nor, ultimately does it matter. No rational argument will ever be able to escape that singularity. It's just mathematically impossible.


Aww, how precious. You've created an alternate reality to avoid the real world.
 
2012-11-16 11:48:34 PM  
CUJOQUARREL:

"I have a cousin that does the same thing. Hates the job. Hates the management. Hates her co-workers. But she won't find something else and just quit.

On the other hand that's the way she's been with every job she's ever had ..."


My sympathies for your cousin. I'm a real softie inside and having been raised dirt poor, I know the woes of wretched poverty and hoplessness.

In my late forties, and for only $800, I started my own appliance repair business. Took two years of gut-gnawing struggle but we are doing okay at last. Doing it right, keeping prices low and honoring all repair work. Last year, my wife and I brought in the son-in-law. Doing what I can for my family while my health holds up. Hope you are doing well, and we can only hope that your cousin survives these hard times.

Now, if I may, allow me to throw this out there: Anybody got any ideas on steps which can be taken to allow his cousin to have a happier and more meaningful life? Anyone? 
 
2012-11-17 12:23:36 AM  

leadmetal: Now as to the walmart employment horror stories, why not leave? Are there no Targets? No Safeways? No Kmarts? No Menards? No Home Depots? If these other places pay more and treat people better, just start applying at them. I am sure they would prefer someone with applicable experience than someone right off the street.


If you're a minority/woman/senior citizen with no college education, your job options are limited.

"But why not get a degree?" With what money? All of their income goes to rent, food, and utilities.

"But why not get a loan?". Yes, banks are tripping over themselves to give loans to people who can barely afford to pay rent.

"Why not get a new job?" When you're working two waitressing jobs just feed your kids, you're not going to quit your job in an unstable job market, are you? Don't you think that if there were better paying jobs available out there, that working mother of 2 wouldn't already be applying for it?
 
2012-11-17 12:30:39 AM  

FuryOfFirestorm: leadmetal: Now as to the walmart employment horror stories, why not leave? Are there no Targets? No Safeways? No Kmarts? No Menards? No Home Depots? If these other places pay more and treat people better, just start applying at them. I am sure they would prefer someone with applicable experience than someone right off the street.

If you're a minority/woman/senior citizen with no college education, your job options are limited.

"But why not get a degree?" With what money? All of their income goes to rent, food, and utilities.

"But why not get a loan?". Yes, banks are tripping over themselves to give loans to people who can barely afford to pay rent.

"Why not get a new job?" When you're working two waitressing jobs just feed your kids, you're not going to quit your job in an unstable job market, are you? Don't you think that if there were better paying jobs available out there, that working mother of 2 wouldn't already be applying for it?


Not irresponsibly having the two kids would be a good start.
 
2012-11-17 12:38:48 AM  

Silly Jesus: FuryOfFirestorm: leadmetal: Now as to the walmart employment horror stories, why not leave? Are there no Targets? No Safeways? No Kmarts? No Menards? No Home Depots? If these other places pay more and treat people better, just start applying at them. I am sure they would prefer someone with applicable experience than someone right off the street.

If you're a minority/woman/senior citizen with no college education, your job options are limited.

"But why not get a degree?" With what money? All of their income goes to rent, food, and utilities.

"But why not get a loan?". Yes, banks are tripping over themselves to give loans to people who can barely afford to pay rent.

"Why not get a new job?" When you're working two waitressing jobs just feed your kids, you're not going to quit your job in an unstable job market, are you? Don't you think that if there were better paying jobs available out there, that working mother of 2 wouldn't already be applying for it?

Not irresponsibly having the two kids would be a good start.


Wow. You are such a colossal asshole, you make Donald Trump look like Mr. Rogers.

Even Satan would reject your soul.
 
2012-11-17 12:39:48 AM  

EVERYBODY PANIC: Anybody got any ideas on steps which can be taken to allow his cousin to have a happier and more meaningful life? Anyone?


Change herself? I'm just basing that opinion on this:

CujoQuarrel: I have a cousin that does the same thing. Hates the job. Hates the management. Hates her co-workers. But she won't find something else and just quit.

On the other hand that's the way she's been with every job she's ever had ...


There seems to be a common factor.
 
2012-11-17 01:08:55 AM  

Mikey1969: jayphat: Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Yeah, either a bunch of chain restaurants, or places that don't do any business related to WalMart. In other words, no competition.


And certainly no companies that offer living wages.
 
2012-11-17 01:43:06 AM  

ciberido: You needn't bother. Silly Jesus has passed beyond what I call the Derpchild radius, the point at which Poe's Law collapses under the burden of its own derp. It's no longer possible to determine whether the farker is sincere, trolling, or sarcastic. Nor, ultimately does it matter. No rational argument will ever be able to escape that singularity. It's just mathematically impossible.


I've only ever used the ignore feature once before. I have no problem talking with the derpiest derper that ever derped, but there is just no point to insult. I'm better than that, and I have no use for someone that has to insult other people in order to feel better about himself.

Speaking of which, that's the attitude I see from many people in this thread - well, if "working for wal-mart" is the best that person can do, then tough. If they can do "better" than that, then they should quit.

What happens to the next person in line? Should everyone just leave this mess to be someone else's problem? What about the not-so-intelligent employees that don't understand that THIS ISN'T RIGHT? Are these people advocating that the workers just find somewhere else to work, rather than take a stand for what they were promised when they rearranged their lives for this job?

I don't get it.
 
2012-11-17 03:07:57 AM  

ox45tallboy: Litterbox: Welp, it should be interesting on Black Friday. Im a Deputy Sheriff and along with about ten others, we will be working security at our local Walmart. Less people is good as long as I still get paid for being there. LOL!

So, are you doing this a "side job" for $25+/hour?

What do you think about the employees at Wal-Mart that are being ordered to work "security" and "prevent people from cutting in line or getting into fights", like my sister? For $8.50/hr?


Your sister is working as a "security guard"? Wal-Mart doesn't have a very good reputation when it comes to new, untrained "security guards".

You and your sister are wise to fight this.
 
2012-11-17 03:08:05 AM  
Silly Jesus thinks you should be a slave if you have kids.

Silly Jesus also thinks having kids is a very bad thing.
 
2012-11-17 03:42:21 AM  
MithrandirBooga: Consider this. Walmart makes $15 billion in profit each year. Walmart employees consume $3 billion in government welfare each year.

How about they take a tiny hit off of profit to pay their employees enough to not need welfare, for a start? The employees are each contributing towards the GDP fraction that is being generated, but they are not receiving any of it. It's wage theft, plain and simple.

Joe Blowme: So generous with other peoples money, nice. Maybe you should run for office


Actually, if you read the comment you were replying to, it is Wal-Mart that is being generous with other people's money. Do you really not know why some Wal-Mart employees are on welfare? Can you not see the problem with a company making obscene profits WHILE THEIR EMPLOYEES NEED FOOD STAMPS?
 
2012-11-17 07:44:09 AM  

Mikey1969: jayphat: Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Yeah, either a bunch of chain restaurants, or places that don't do any business related to WalMart. In other words, no competition.


The Wal-Mart they built here a few years back has a strip mall that now surrounds the entire thing. Aside from the chain restaurants, the stores consist of Radio Shack, Game Stop, Dollar General, Super Cuts, a gas station, a Sprint store as well a couple others I cant think of right now. All these places are in direct competition with what Wal-Mart sells yet they're thriving.
 
2012-11-17 02:26:51 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Mikey1969: jayphat: Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Yeah, either a bunch of chain restaurants, or places that don't do any business related to WalMart. In other words, no competition.

The Wal-Mart they built here a few years back has a strip mall that now surrounds the entire thing. Aside from the chain restaurants, the stores consist of Radio Shack, Game Stop, Dollar General, Super Cuts, a gas station, a Sprint store as well a couple others I cant think of right now. All these places are in direct competition with what Wal-Mart sells yet they're thriving.


Game Stop: Used games. WalMart doesn't sell these.

Radio Shack: Haven't been able to classify this one for years, not sure how much they compete, because I've never seen anyone buy an actual TV at Radio Shack

Dollar General: Even WalMart doesn't sell that kind of cheap crap

Super Cuts: Hair Salons in WalMart are off and on, some have them, some don't. Sure they compete, but that Salon in WalMart could be turned into a bank tomorrow.

Gas Station: Just like the salon, it's not common enough in WalMart to be a regular thing, I can think of maybe 1 WalMart I know of here that sells gas.

Sprint: You DO realize that WalMart doesn't -rovide phone SERVICE, right? That's where people like Sprint come in. How exactly is WalMart supposed to sell you a cell phone if they drive the coverage providers out of business?
 
2012-11-17 06:03:26 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: Silly Jesus: FuryOfFirestorm: leadmetal: Now as to the walmart employment horror stories, why not leave? Are there no Targets? No Safeways? No Kmarts? No Menards? No Home Depots? If these other places pay more and treat people better, just start applying at them. I am sure they would prefer someone with applicable experience than someone right off the street.

If you're a minority/woman/senior citizen with no college education, your job options are limited.

"But why not get a degree?" With what money? All of their income goes to rent, food, and utilities.

"But why not get a loan?". Yes, banks are tripping over themselves to give loans to people who can barely afford to pay rent.

"Why not get a new job?" When you're working two waitressing jobs just feed your kids, you're not going to quit your job in an unstable job market, are you? Don't you think that if there were better paying jobs available out there, that working mother of 2 wouldn't already be applying for it?

Not irresponsibly having the two kids would be a good start.

Wow. You are such a colossal asshole, you make Donald Trump look like Mr. Rogers.

Even Satan would reject your soul.


Yeah, that's usually how liberals react to the concept of personal responsibility.
 
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